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Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
 
I've got a Doctrine and Covenants question. I'm posting it here rather than at Nauvoo because there are more thoughtful Mormons here than at the Nauvoo board anymore. This is a better place to get good answers. [Smile]

How do you interpret D&C 129? Literally, figuratively, some other way? I got a question from my nonmember spouse about this section (he encountered it on a trip with the Boy Scouts and thought it was odd). I am trying to come up with a good answer for him.

I myself am not sure what I'm supposed to get from section 129/how to understand it. It's not a situation that has ever come up in my life. [Wink] What am I missing? I've only been LDS for four years, but I think I know a lot of the basics because I study a lot -- however, this one's mysterious to me.

Please send your interpretations, opinions, and best guesses to veritasliberat@yahoo.com

Thanks in advance!
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
It is an odd little section, isn't it?

Even odder, my understanding is that the section is to be taken literally.
 
Posted by Father Time (Member # 7985) on :
 
It is to be taken literally. A definition of angels is as follows:

There are two classes of heavenly beings.

Spirits are those beings who either have not yet obtained a body of flesh and bone (unembodied), or who have once had a mortal body and have died, and are awaiting the resurrection (disembodied). Ordinarily the word angel means those ministering persons who have a body of flesh and bone, being either resurrected from the dead (reembodied), or else translated, as were Enoch, Elijah.

Understanding this, it is easier to understand that once the heavens were opened and angelic visitations occured (John the Baptist, Peter, James and John, etc.)that Satan would try to decieve the Saints to destroy the work by appearing as heavenly messengers. Therefore, it was taught that the followers of Satan who cannot obtain a physical body could be detected by following the simple counsel in this section.

Hope this helps.
 
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
Email sent. [Smile]
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I haven't really thought about 129 before, but I've discovered that after I get more pieces of understanding and testimony, there always seems to be more questions.

[Smile]
 
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
I love that section. And yes, I think it's literal. [Smile]
 
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
Hmmm... *puts D&C129 on her reading list for tonight to check it out*

FG (not Mormon)
 
Posted by CaySedai (Member # 6459) on :
 
I always thought it was literal. My question is, will I remember the instructions if I'm ever in that situation? [Dont Know]

Section 129 for those who don't have their Doctrine and Covenants handy.
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
I believe that it is literal and that it leaves a lot unsaid.
 
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
 
I hope I'm never in that situation because if an angel were visiting me, I'd either be cowering as he called me to repentance or quivering as he told me about some huge responsibility I suddenly had.

And I don't even want to think about being visited by the other kind of angel.
 
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
quote:
I hope I'm never in that situation because if an angel were visiting me, I'd either be cowering as he called me to repentance or quivering as he told me about some huge responsibility I suddenly had.
Hebrews 13:2 [Big Grin]
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
It seems to me that this fails to eliminate the fourth possibility: that it's an ordinary man claiming to be an angel. In that situation, he could still shake hands with you successfully.
 
Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
 
Yeah, which makes me wonder if the passage doesn't mean something else too, something about either (1) the nature of good and evil/deception or (2) divine authority vs. lack of it, rather than just being a set of instructions.
 
Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
 
quote:
because if an angel were visiting me, I'd either be cowering as he called me to repentance or quivering as he told me about some huge responsibility I suddenly had.
No wonder the first thing angels say is usually "Fear not." [Smile]
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
I have to admit that it would never occur to me to fear a visiting angel. I'd be way, way too curious.
 
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
 
I think my first reaction would be, "Oh, cool! An angel!" This would quickly be followed by, "Uh oh. An angel." [Big Grin]

And Tom, you can tell ordinary people from angels because angels glow, wear white, have halos and wings, and hover over the ground. Duh.
 
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
When I heard Madeleine L'Engle speak, she said that the fact that the first words out of an angel's mouth are usually "fear not" should give you a good clue what angels do and don't look like. That's why she made Progo the cherubim a giant scarey mass of wings and eyes rather than a cute little baby with wings.
 
Posted by Theaca (Member # 8325) on :
 
That reminds me, one of the girls at my office dressed up yesterday as an angel by wearing white, having a halo, and little wings clipped to her back. But her halo stood straight up and you couldn't see her wings from the front so I kept calling her Miz Overstock.com all day.
 
Posted by firebird (Member # 1971) on :
 
Brinestone

Genius ... roflol
 
Posted by firebird (Member # 1971) on :
 
Brinestone

Genius ... roflol
 
Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
 
*bump*
 
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
 
SECTION 129

Spent most of the day in conversation with Parley P. Pratt and others. [Section 129 follows] (HC, Vol. 5, p. 267)

Background information on section 129 from "Companion of study of Doctrine and Covenants" by Daniel H. Ludlow


"A man came to me in Kirtland, and told me he had seen an angel, and described his dress. I told him he had seen no angel, and that there was no such dress in heaven. He grew mad, and went into the street and commanded fire to come down out of heaven to consume me. I laughed at him, and said, You are one of Baal's prophets; your God does not hear you; jump up and cut yourself: and he commanded fire from heaven to consume my house." (Joseph Smith, HC 5:267-68 .)

129:1 "There are two kinds of beings in heaven"

"He explained the difference between an angel and a ministering spirit; the one a resurrected or translated body, with its spirit ministering to embodied spirits -- the other a disembodied spirit, visiting and ministering to disembodied spirits. Jesus Christ became a ministering spirit (while His body was lying in the sepulchre) to the spirits in prison, to fulfill an important part of His mission [1 Peter 3:18-20], without which He could not have perfected His work, or entered into His rest. After His resurrection He appeared as an angel to His disciples.

"Translated bodies cannot enter into rest until they have undergone a change equivalent to death. Translated bodies are designed for future missions." (Joseph Smith, HC 4:425.)

129:1 "Angels"

"The theme discoursed upon is the presence in heaven of two kinds or classes of beings, namely, first, resurrected beings and, second, spirits who are not resurrected. It is not asserted that there are no other kinds of persons in heaven than they, but the subject treated is of the two classes mentioned.

"Comparison with other texts of scripture, ancient and modern, makes clear the fact that there are other grades or classes of heavenly beings than the two spoken of in section 129. It is understood by ordinary students of modern religion that there are perfected beings called gods, who are higher than the angels (see D&C 132:16-39), and to whom the angels are servants. And even among the gods there are Presiding Personages, the Holy Trinity standing at the head. [D&C 121:32; 130:22-23.]

"There are angels of various appointments and stations. Michael is called an 'archangel.' (D&C 29:26; Dan. 10:13.) Some are resurrected beings like the angel that was sent to John the Revelator (Rev. 22:8, 9), and those already referred to in D&C, Section 132, while others are 'ministering spirits sent forth to minister unto them who shall be heirs of salvation.' (Heb. 1:14.) Some of these angels are described as 'the spirits of just men made perfect' and are 'not resurrected,' and others were made ministering spirits before entering into mortality, serving among their fellows in their pre-existent state. Christ was a ministering spirit before his birth into this world. [Ether 3:14-16.] He was 'anointed above his fellows.' The angel Gabriel was a ministering spirit after he had been a mortal man (Noah) and before his resurrection, for Jesus of Nazareth was ... 'the firstfruits of them that slept.' (See Luke 1:11-30; Dan. 8:16; 9:21.)

"Angels are God's messengers, whether used in that capacity as unembodied spirits, selected according to their capacities for the work required, or as disembodied spirits, or as translated men, or as resurrected beings....

"Angels high in authority have been clothed on special occasions with the right to represent Deity personally. They have appeared and have been recognized as God himself, just as royal ambassadors of earthly potentates have acted, as recorded in history. The angel spoken of in Exodus 23:20-22, was one of these. So also was the Angel already spoken of who ministered to John ....

"The popular notion that angels are winged beings, because it is stated by some scripture writers that they saw them 'flying through the heavens,' is a fallacy. Cherubim and Seraphim spoken of by Ezekiel [10:3] and Isaiah [6:2, 6] are not to be classed with the angels, for the angels are of the same race and descent as man, whether in body or in spirit, and do not need wings for locomotion, nor do they appear in birdlike form. They are of the family of Deity in different degrees of progression and are 'in the image and likeness' of the Most High.

"There are fallen angels, too, who were cast down for transgression, as mentioned by Jude (verse 6), chief among whom on this earth is Lucifer or Satan, who has sought on many occasions to appear as an 'angel of light' to deceive and lead astray, and who tempted the Son of God, but failed in his efforts as he did with Moses and with the Prophet Joseph Smith. (See Luke 4:1-13; Visions of Moses 1:12-22; D&C 128:20.) That great spiritual personage was an angel of God in his 'first estate,' and yet never had a body of flesh, but 'was in authority in the presence of God' as a spirit, before he rebelled and was 'thrust down.' (D&C 76:25-28.)

"Thus it will be seen that all angels are not resurrected beings, nor is it so declared." (Charles W. Penrose, IE, August 1912, pp. 949-52.)

129:4 "When a messenger comes"

"Most generally, when angels have come, or God has revealed himself, it has been to individuals in private, in their chamber, in the wilderness or fields, and that generally without noise or tumult. The angel delivered Peter out of prison in the dead of night [Acts 5:9]; came to Paul unobserved by the rest of the crew [Acts 27:23-24]; appeared to Mary and Elizabeth without the knowledge of others [Luke 1:28-30]; spoke to John the Baptist whilst the people around were ignorant of it [John 5:36-38]." (Joseph Smith, HC 5:31 .)

129:8 "If it be the devil as an angel"

"There are bad spirits as well as good, and the vital question is: How can we know the difference between them? Let us at this stage consult an expert -- for there are such -- one who came in contact with spiritual forces to a marvelous extent, not only receiving messages from other worlds, but also interviewing the messengers. Joseph Smith knew the difference between good and evil communicants, and here is his testimony concerning them: [D&C 129:4-8, quoted.]

"In another place, the Prophet says: 'Wicked spirits have their bounds, limits and laws, by which they are governed; and it is very evident that they possess a power that none but those who have the Priesthood can control.' (HC 4:576.) To his declaration that 'a man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge' [cf. 131:6], he adds that if men do not get knowledge including the knowledge of how to control evil spirits, the latter will have more power than the former, and thus be able to dominate them. This is precisely the condition of 'the spirits in prison.' They are dominated by a power which they cannot control. They are in Hell, and Satan sways the scepter over his own dominion. [D&C 76:81-85.]" (Orson F. Whitney, SNT, pp. 310-12.)

129:9 "you may know"

"It should be noted that this Revelation came about a year before so-called spirit-rapping had been discovered, or invented, by the Fox family at Hydeville, N.Y., in March, 1844, giving birth to Spiritism with all its delusions. By this Revelation the Saints were forewarned and therefore saved from being deceived by false pretensions or by evil spirits." (Smith and Sjodahl, DCC, p. 811.)

Section 129: Angels and Spirits from "Our Modern Scripture" by Richard O. Cowen

To better identify the classes of supernatural messengers, one may list the various stages in the life of a spirit as follows: unembodied (in the preearthly existence), embodied (during mortality, including translated beings), disembodied (following death), and reembodied (resurrected).

In elaborating on the teachings in this revelation, Joseph Smith pointed out that there are two classes of beings in heaven:

1. "Angels," which are heavenly beings possessing tangible bodies either translated or resurrected. (Note that this is a [p.196] more precise usage of the term angel, which is often used to refer to all heavenly messengers in general.)

2. "Ministering spirits," which may be either unembodied or disembodied. (See HC, 4:425.) Because the sons of perdition will not be resurrected until after the Millennium, all messengers from Satan's kingdom must be spirits.

Section 129 Commentary from "Doctrine and Covenants Commentary" by Hyrum and Sjodahl

About the time this Revelation was received, a man came to the Prophet Joseph and told him he had seen an angel. He described his dress. The Prophet told him that he was mistaken, for in heaven there was no such dress as he had described. The man then became furious and commanded fire to come down from heaven and consume the Prophet and his house (Hist. of the Church, Vol. V., p. 267).

It should be noted that this Revelation came about a year before so-called spirit-rapping had been discovered, or invented, by the Fox family at Hydeville, N.Y., in March, 1844, giving birth to Spiritism with all its delusions. By this Revelation the Saints were forewarned and therefore saved from being deceived by false pretensions or by evil spirits.

There has been considerable confusion arise because of the statement by the Prophet in this revelation that there are in heaven two kinds of beings, namely "angels who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones * * * 2nd, spirits of just men made perfect-they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory." * * * When a messenger comes, saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand, and request him to shake hands with you. If he be an angel, he will do so, and you will feel his hand. If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect, he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear." From this the thought has been conveyed to the minds of some that a personage cannot be an angel unless he is resurrected and has a body of flesh and bones. Any messenger sent from the presence of the Lord with a message is an angel. This term has even been applied to translated beings.

"In the broadest sense, any being who acts as a messenger for our Heavenly Father, is an angel, be he a God, a resurrected man, or the spirit of a just man; and the term is so used in all these senses in the ancient scriptures. In the stricter and more limited sense, an angel is, as the Prophet Joseph Smith states, a resurrected personage, having a body of flesh and bones; but it must be remembered that none of the angels who appeared to men before the death of the Savior could be of that class, for none of them was resurrected. He was the first-fruits of them that slept. He Himself appeared often to His servants before he took His mortal body; for instance, to the brother of Jared, to Abraham, to Moses, to the seventy Elders and to many others." (President George Q. Cannon in the Juvenile Instructor, Vol. 26; January 15, 1891.)

Other Notes from "Doctrine and Covenants Student Manuel":

There are indications that Joseph Smith might have learned about the nature of Satan early on, as Michael aided him in detecting Satan as an Angel of Light (D&C 128:20)

Wilford Woodruff says that he learned of similar keys from Joseph Smith as early as 1839 (Journal of Wilford Woodruff, Vol. 2, 27 June 1839)


"We may look for angels and receive their ministrations, but we are to try the spirits and prove them, for it is often the case that men make a mis- take in regard to these things. God has so ordained that when He has communicated, no vision is to be taken but what you see by the seeing of the eye, or what you hear by the hearing of the ear. When you see a vision, pray for the interpretation; if you get not this, shut it up; there must be certainty in this matter. An open vision will manifest that which is more important. Lying spirits [p.392] are going forth in the earth. There will be great manifestations of spirits, both false and true.

"Being born again, comes by the Spirit of God through ordinances. An angel of God never has wings. Some will say that they have seen a spirit; that he offered them his hand, but they did not touch it. This is a lie. First, it is contrary to the plan of God: a spirit cannot come but in glory; an angel has flesh and bones; we see not their glory. The devil may appear as an angel of light. Ask God to reveal it; if it be of the devil, he will flee from you; if of God, He will manifest Himself, or make it manifest. We may come to Jesus and ask Him; He will know all about it; if He comes to a little child, He will adapt himself to the language and capacity of a little child.

"Every spirit, or vision, or singing, is not of God. The devil is an orator; he is powerful; he took our Savior on to a pinnacle of the Temple, and kept Him in the wilderness for forty days. The gift of discerning spirits will be given to the Presiding Elder. Pray for him that he may have this gift. Speak not in the gift of tongues without understanding it, or without interpretation. The devil can speak in tongues; the adversary will come with his work; he can tempt all classes; can speak in English or Dutch. Let no one speak in tongues unless he interpret, except by the consent of the one who is placed to preside; then he may discern or interpret, or another may. Let us seek for the glory of Abraham, Noah, Adam, the Apostles, who have communion with [knowledge of] these things, and then we shall be among that number when Christ comes." (from Joseph Smith History Vol. 3, pg 392)
 
Posted by Samarkand (Member # 8379) on :
 
Whoa . . . wait . . . is this why we shake hands in Western culture?
 
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
That was my thought when I read D&C129 last night at home (before everyone posted it here) [Smile] I thought -- what about all those other cultures where shaking hands is not the normal form of greeting?

Obviously Joseph Smith wrote this passage in a culture where shaking hands was the norm. I wonder how he would apply it in other countries..

FG
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
quote:

I wonder how he would apply it in other countries.

If you're a Japanese Mormon, you need to arrange to bump heads. [Wink]
 
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
If you're a French Mormon, you have to exchange bisous.
 
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
 
I too take it literally. I will say also that Frodo's method as regards Strider in Bree is another good way to discern spirits. You can examine the fruits, the message conveyed, and how it made you feel to be in the presence of the angel, and this will tell you much. There is a feeling of joy and exaltation which is simultaneously lofty and humble.

It's a little like the purity and beauty and elation that you feel in the raptures of being caught up in some great work of music or art, like the finale of Beethoven's Ninth, perhaps, only much moreso, while at the same time it's as simple and homely as being licked by a 4 week old kitten. It feels not like a dream but like waking up. Like a plain and precious truth, which it is. We are eternal beings. This world is not our home, we are but wayfarers here.
 
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
 
The idea of having a single person (prophet) authorized to communicate with God on behalf of an entire church was novel to the people who joined the early LDS Church. It took them quite a while to get used to the idea, and in the meantime a lot of them figured that there was no reason they couldn't see angels and receive visions and revelations if Joseph Smith was doing the same thing. There are many, many stories, some memorialized in LDS scripture, of early members coming up with really strange claims of supernatural communication. Joseph Smith repeatedly had to tell them that this wasn't the way things were done.

The Section being discussed is one example of this phenomenon. It reminded the people that not all supernatural events are of divine provenance, and that people are easily deceived. The point isn't so much to tell the people how to recognize a real heavenly messenger (although the Section does do that). Rather, the point is to help people realize that such visitations are extremely rare, and will almost certainly never happen to you. If you think it has, you are probably mistaken.

At least, that's my take.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I wore an angel costume for Halloween with gigantic white wings, and it was funny how people respond differently to even the representation of an angel. I got a couple of miracle stories on the subway, and while walking down the street I heard a woman saying on her telephone, "I'm in heaven! I told you where I'm at - this is heaven."

*muses* I guess she could have been talking about something else, but she was right behind me. Angels are deep in our collective culture.
 
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
 
quote:
How do you interpret D&C 129? Literally, figuratively, some other way?
quote:
Whoa . . . wait . . . is this why we shake hands in Western culture?
quote:
Obviously Joseph Smith wrote this passage in a culture where shaking hands was the norm. I wonder how he would apply it in other countries..
I think it is a little more complicated than a simple figurative/literal dicotomy. I don't know if you have been through a Temple Yozhik, but there are other implications to the issue of knowing the difference between a pre and post-mortal Angel than a simple handshake. I think there is spiritually figurative meaning behind the physical act. Some of that has to do with the laws of the Universe that even Satan has to follow, like the symbol of a dove representing the Holy Ghost and not an evil spirit.
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
quote:
Some of that has to do with the laws of the Universe that even Satan has to follow, like the symbol of a dove representing the Holy Ghost and not an evil spirit.
*blink* Am I interpreting this correctly? Are you really saying that the symbol of the dove cannot be used by the forces of evil, according to LDS doctrine?
 
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
 
It can be used by the forces of earthly evil. It Can't be used by the forces of Satan and his Devils. But, really, there is more to it than that. It would be hard to explain, and I don't know if I want to take the time right now. Maybe someone else could if they have the time or understanding. I full admit to an isoteric understanding of some LDS doctrines that are hard to put into words.
 
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
 
" The sign of the dove was instituted before the creation of the world, a witness for the Holy Ghost, and the devil cannot come in the sign of a dove. The Holy Ghost is a personage, and is in the form of a personage. It does not confine itself to the form of the dove, but in sign of the dove. The Holy Ghost cannot be transformed into a dove; but the sign of a dove was given to John to signify the truth of the deed, as the dove is an emblem or token of truth and innocence." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 275-276.)
 
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
 
What a great thread! [Smile]
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
quote:

It can be used by the forces of earthly evil.

See, this is what concerns me. Because earthly evil -- which can shake hands and draw doves as much as it wants -- seems like a far, far greater danger than miscellaneous devils. What signs permit you to recognize earthly evil?
 
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
 
The gift of the Holy Ghost, that reveals all things in Truth and Righteousness. And recognizing the gift is a lifelong lesson that few ever fully comprehend.

Then again, as I have said, there are questions that you have asked that I cannot (nor think ever can) put answers into words. As Joseph Smith said, sometimes language is a prison when trying to speak of Heavenly things.
 
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
 
Here is another quote from Joseph Smith about Angels I just ran into, although I knew of it before:

“A sister in the State of New York had a vision who said it was told her that if she would go to a certain place in the woods an angel would appear to her, — she went at the appointed time and saw a glorious personage descending arrayed in white, with sandy coloured hair… How it may be asked was this known to be a bad angel? by the color of his hair; that is one of the signs that he can be known by”
Times and Seasons Vol.3, No.11, p.747
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
*blinks again* Angels can't be dirty blonds?
 
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
 
Apparently not. [ROFL] I may believe that Joseph Smith knew what he was talking about (as he claims to have been contact by at least a dozen different Angels and I believe he was a prophet), but that doesn't mean I don't see the humor behind it.

So, lets recap How to Detect Angels according to LDS statements and doctrines at this point:

1)If the angel wants to shake hands than it better feel physical.

2)If the angel doesn't want to shake hands, it better have a message and look impressive.

3)The Angel better not have sandy hair as it wouldn't look impressive.

[Hat]
 
Posted by CaySedai (Member # 6459) on :
 
what I don't get is this: the "bad angels" surely know about these instructions, yet if one visits a person and is asked to shake hands, it will - even though to do so would reveal its nature. Don't they know better? I mean, if a deceiving spirit doesn't know enough to refuse to shake hands, it doesn't sound too clever.
 
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
 
Tom Davidson:"See, this is what concerns me. Because earthly evil -- which can shake hands and draw doves as much as it wants -- seems like a far, far greater danger than miscellaneous devils. What signs permit you to recognize earthly evil?"

You are absolutely right. Recognizing "earthly evil" is much more important. That's why we have very, very little in LDS scripture that talks about how to avoid being deceived by counterfeit angels (including the Section being discussed), and hundreds of scriptural verses about detecting and avoiding "earthly evil".
 
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
CaySedai, I've wondered the same thing. [Smile] Maybe when deceiving spirits try to read D&C 129 they get a big *****SPOILERS***** warning.
 
Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
 
I would just like to point out that anything which is ritualistic- like shaking hands- is also symbolic.

While there is, perhaps, some debate on the subject, some people believe that shaking hands developed in western culture as a symbolic way of demonstrating that one is unarmed.

In the Book of Mormon we find an instance of something similar to a handshake which developed among them:
quote:
And it came to pass that the king put forth his hand to raise them, as was the custom with the Lamanites, as a token of peace, which custom they had taken from the Nephites.
Again, this development was clearly symbolic, as the author notes. Then we have in Mormon culture, through the temple, other symbolism related to shaking hands which has direct bearing on this section of the Doctrine and Covenants.

So while there may certainly be an obvious, simple interpretation of this section, there are also definitely ritualistic and symbolic aspects as well.
 


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