The worst terror is that of utter disconnect from God. This is the pain that those who "sin" experience. They do not experience it because they sinned. They experience because their "sin" was an abomination.
This is the nature of "sinning."
A sin is nothing more than an acceptance of an alternative face of God. To accept that one face WILL, of course, for a while energize you. It will consume you eventually and God will be gone and then you will be nothing more than an object, nothing more than a thing, and that is terror, that is death, that is what happens to those who accept that path.
Understand fully your actions. The key to power is there. The key to destruction is there. The KEY to everything is there.
And in the end, the greater power is right. You can not do a thing that is not part of its fold. The more you play with it, the more dangerous it becomes, the easier one part will hold you, and you will falter.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Phanto, I'm having trouble understanding your post, and I've at least heard of most of these "theories" of sin before. I've even believed one of them, provisionally. For awhile.
What I do understand of your post I disagree with with a strength of feeling ranging from "mild" to "virulent."
However, you might consider this. If one purpose of your post is to convince people that they should acknowledge their misbehavior as "sin" and also acknowledge God as the Savior, striving for clarity in your presentation might be the single most important part of the whole effort.
If, however, you just wanted to take some various thoughts and post them for people take pot shots at...well I'd say you're going to get your wish pretty soon now.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
Fair enough. I am not here on a personal level; I am here on an ideological level, and I am very excited to encounter new ideas. Bear in mind, I have no beliefs formally, and this is just an expression of what I suspect.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
And clairity is very hard for me because what I write seems to be clear.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
And if you truly feel virulent, then the intellectual discussion ought to be powerful and enjoyable as long as emotion is kept 2condary.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Well, could you take a stab at clarifying first before we just go around in circles?
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
Sure.
As a religious belief based on my experience, that when I went deep enough into myself, the terror of being disconected from God was an infinite terror.
This alone would not be enough to convince me of anything besides for that I am an animal incapable of self-life. But inaddition to my belief in spirituality, which is based on several personal encounters with it, my intuition leads me to say that this is true, and that it is a general truth.
I am being presumptuous though that my understand is better than anyone elses. That is arrogance, but it is the nature of opinion.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
What makes you think that your intuitions somehow connect you to objective TRUTH for all others?
I can see how they give you a subjective truth that you can then choose to act on (or not), but why should anyone who is faithful use your intuitions rather than their own? For that matter, for someone who is not faithful, what relevance will your faith-based intuitions have for them?
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
None. Unless I explain them very well. Which could take books and books and books, thousands of pages.
Posted by ssywak (Member # 807) on :
Phanto,
In all serious, and with no disrespect, is English, perhaps, not your first language? Or, have you been staying up very late at night or, alternatively, have you recently changed your meds?
It could, of course, be me; but there is an odd edge to your language. Not as in "a sharp edge", but moreso as in a "falling off the edge or the world" edge.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
I am in deep meditation in the moment which is why there is that edge ^^.
I am also expressing exactly what I feel in the words. I find this to be what I have to do in order to maintain myself -- honesty is the policy at least for philosophy.
Posted by firebird (Member # 1971) on :
Phanto, you may be expressing what you feel but I am getting very little about what you feel or think because I don't understand much of what you wrote beyond the second paragraph.
So to respond to your first paragraph only.
I understand the concept that hell for those who believe in god is absence of god. And therefore to sin is to become disconnected.
However, the 'god' that I hear talk about is often hugely offensive to me, he simply does not sound like a kind / loving entity and so for me being with an entitiy who I find to be inconsistent / mean / judgemental would be hell whereas to be in 'my' reality is a very comfortable and safe place.
The reality and spiritual force in my perception (deception) of reality demands that I am the best possible person that I (and everyone else) can be, and I often fall short, but it is more flexible and rational than the 'god' that I hear others talk about.
Posted by firebird (Member # 1971) on :
Phanto, you may be expressing what you feel but I am getting very little about what you feel or think because I don't understand much of what you wrote beyond the second paragraph.
So to respond to your first paragraph only.
I understand the concept that hell for those who believe in god is absence of god. And therefore to sin is to become disconnected.
However, the 'god' that I hear talk about is often hugely offensive to me, he simply does not sound like a kind / loving entity and so for me being with an entitiy who I find to be inconsistent / mean / judgemental would be hell whereas to be in 'my' reality is a very comfortable and safe place.
The reality and spiritual force in my perception (deception) of reality demands that I am the best possible person that I (and everyone else) can be, and I often fall short, but it is more flexible and rational than the 'god' that I hear others talk about.
Posted by Phytakai (Member # 8744) on :
It's hard to debate such a personal topic when your experiences are relative. Not your statments, but your evidence that is supporting them. If ones desire is to not sin, given your defenition of sin, then it works. But, that all depends upon the persons desires and preferences.
But on the topic of sin and hell, I have been having a hard time trying to figurer out how the concept of punishment and rewards can be a moral argument. It leads back to the, "does god command something because it is right, or is it right because god commands it?" question. Either way, it sort of shows the contradiction in "Follow the rules or you go to hell" as a moral argument to do good.
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
A character in my NaNoWriMo novel thinks that God is actually a giant, red lobster.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'deep meditation' if you are responding on Hatrack while doing so.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
He's in so deep he's connecting to the internet directly from his brain.
*Bows to the master*
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
quote:Originally posted by Phanto: The worst terror is that of utter disconnect from God. This is the pain that those who "sin" experience. They do not experience it because they sinned. They experience because their "sin" was an abomination.
The worst terror, for me, would be to find out that one of the so-called narrow paths to God was actually true. To me that would say a great deal about God that I simply cannot fathom in a deity who supposedly has our best interests at heart.
I've come across many different Gods in my discussions with fellow searchers for truth. Quite frankly, the worst terror for me would be to find myself less than utterly disconnected from most of them.
Posted by firebird (Member # 1971) on :
Karl Ed ... it seems we are on exactly the same page. (I think you say more clearly though) Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:The worst terror is that of utter disconnect from God. This is the pain that those who "sin" experience.
As a Christian, I hear things like this from other Christians all the time - but I have to say that I don't really know what it is supposed to mean. If taken at face value, it seems very clearly wrong to me, because many people who supposedly should be disconnected from God do not appear, in any way, to be in the worst possible pain.
quote:What makes you think that your intuitions somehow connect you to objective TRUTH for all others?
Probably the same thing that makes everyone conclude that any particular belief of theirs is an objective truth for all others: Faith.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tresopax:
quote:What makes you think that your intuitions somehow connect you to objective TRUTH for all others?
Probably the same thing that makes everyone conclude that any particular belief of theirs is an objective truth for all others: Faith.
Change "everyone" to "anyone" and I'm with you. I, for one, do not conclude that my beliefs are any kind of objective truth for anyone, including myself. I also consider myself a man of faith, but since you capitalized the word, you are free to define it as you see fit.
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