In an alternate thread a very intriguing question came to light. It is my assumption that most people rarely change their beliefs. In my experience I find that people generally hold onto their beliefs with great effort and furthermore when those beliefs are challenged they are held to even more tightly.
However I was informed that here on Hatrack this is not the case. In fact I [was] told that it happens all of the time. So if it's not too personal an issue for you would you please share any transformation of beliefs you may have experienced while here on Hatrack.
What was your original belief? How strongly did you hold onto that belief? What was the cause for the change? That is, what allowed you to finally see something differently. What is your new belief?
[ November 03, 2005, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: Tim ]
Posted by Kent (Member # 7850) on :
This is weird Tim. I just started a similar thread on Ornery a couple of days ago. Being closeminded is part of being an adult.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
If you click on the edit icon, you should be able to move this thread over to the other side. You'll get a lot more of a response if you post it there, as opposed to here, where topics are generally "Discussions About Orson Scott Card".
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
quote:It is my assumption that most people rarely change their beliefs. In my experience I find that people generally hold onto their beliefs with great effort and furthermore when those beliefs are challenged they are held to even more tightly
I would agree with this statement.
However, on the other side, many beliefs are shared and discussed. Many times this is because the originator wants to try to better understand his own beliefs or reconcile those beliefs with other observations. In fact, I do think this happens quite often. This doesn't necessarily mean that people completely reverse their beliefs, but they do revise them so that they aren't contradictory to other beliefs.
I don't think that in any way contradicts your statement. In general people don't very often change their beliefs, but there are a number of people that post threads with that very intent. That is why you might see it happen here more often than usual.
Posted by Tim (Member # 8657) on :
Kent, that is weird! I'm definitely going to read that thread. Thanks for the link.
Thanks starLisa, I'll try to move it if possible.
[ I don't see anyway to change to the other side, I'll just post the topic there and link to it from here I guess. And by other side I'm guessing this means the Books, Films, Food and Culture forum. ]
[ Thank you Papa Janitor for the clean up. This is now the correct thread and location. ]
[ November 03, 2005, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: Tim ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
It's worth starting the thread over on the other side, anyway, and adding a link to it at the bottom here.
You'll get many more responses.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Sort of duplicate post from the original thread where this came up:
Actually, you were informed that here at Hatrack people question their beliefs all the time.
quote:In my experience people's beliefs are rarely changed and in fact held to more tightly when challenged. I think I'll post a new topic asking for testimony to the transformation of beliefs.
It should be noted that changing ones beliefs is very different than questioning ones beliefs.
One can change ones beliefs without ever questioning them, and one can question ones beliefs without ever changing them.
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
I would say that my belief that religion is a noxious, destructive force was TOTALLY altered by my first three years on this site... I have a completely different outlook now (though I am still, strictly speaking, a materialist and an atheist).
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Hey, wow! David!
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
I think love has something to do with it. The compelling instances of belief change I've seen are when someone falls for someone else. Presumably, if its more than just a physical attraction, you are attracted by something else about them, this something else about them is intimitely tied to how they see their role in the world and their work in life, so when someone you love, trust, and respect believes something radically different than you do, I think it'll open you up to change in a profound way.
The best I've seen this played out was in "Nice Work," by David Lodge. I thought the book was flawed in many ways, except this one.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I don't think beliefs change over time, so much as they are refined. Major life events might cause a massive shift, but mostly the every day life lessons we learn changes ever so slightly our perception of things, and our views on belief change accordingly.
I've spent the last five years or so trying to come to grips with what I believe religiously. I went from Catholic, to athiest, and then settled somewhere in between. It took a few years of scrutiny and living in the world to decide I didn't like organized religion, but that I was still a spiritual person.
I think religious beliefs are the ones that die or change the hardest. I believe women are, on the whole, shallow and fickle. That's a belief that probably won't change until I meet, in person, a woman who believes differently. But that's probably a manifestation of bitterness towards my ex girlfriend
I believe adults are for the most part hipocrits who demand respect from youth without earning it, and then refuse to respect youth in return.
I have a hundred more. Most of them are colored by life experiences, and observations I've made from the people I've met. Any one of them could be challenged or changed under the right circumstances.
For me the hardest beliefs to break are those about national identity. I believe in America and its founding principles, and I think it would be impossible to dissuade me from that belief.
Posted by Tim (Member # 8657) on :
Dagonee, your right and thanks for brining it to light.
Let's also include anyone who has questioned their belief and what they found as a result of that questioning. What belief did you question? What caused you to question the belief? What was the result? Did you hold the same belief, change it slightly or have a transformation? What now is your new belief?
Posted by littlemissattitude (Member # 4514) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kent: Being closeminded is part of being an adult.
That's just a really sad way to look at life. However it does explain a lot about a lot of people I know (not so much here, understand, as in real life).
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Being closeminded is part of being an adult.
If one is the type to question ones beliefs, then being "closeminded" in the sense of seldom changing ones beliefs is a predictable state. The longer you've been alive, the longer you've questioned your beliefs. The more you've questioned your beliefs, the less likely a new question is to change them.
This depends on the amount of new information/experience being acquired, of course. The inverse correlation of frequency of change to age could derive from being either questioning or unquestioning.
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
Slight refinements gradually carried out result in enormous shifts. I know I have gone from being an evangelical Christian as a teen to a radical Marxist agnostic as a college freshman to a moderate atheist when I got married to a neocon neodarwinist when I joined Hatrack to... whatever the hell it is I am now...
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Asa younger person, I was very staunch in my belief that one should always examine one's beliefs, because the truth does not shrink from the light of reason.
Actually, this was, more or less, an opinion I read in one of C.S. Lewis' books. It effected me deeply, and my life has been the more interesting for it. Heh.
Hatrack, at its best, is a place where people with opposing veiws can express them openly and without rancor. Sometimes, it is a place where these people actually listen to each other and grow to respect each other.
Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
My beliefs transform into robots!
Robots... in disguise!
--Enigmatic
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
lol.
David, nice to see you here.
I question my beliefs all the time. In fact, I can safely say that I doubt there is anyone alive who questions their beliefs more than I do. I'm not really sure though.
Okay, enough frivolity. I enter every discussion with a particular point of view, but I also look for data and reasonable interpretation thereof in order to refine my views. As a result of hanging out here with well-informed people, I have learned some things that have changed my opinions on all sorts of things. Mostly on what I believed other people capable of thinking if they self-identified a certain way. That's an open-mind kind of thing, I think.
In other areas, I've done a complete turn-around in my opinions on things because I've seen the value of another person's argument, or, sometimes, someone has pointed out a glaring inconsistency in my treatment of a particular topic.
I'm not a very good example, though. Except for a few core principles, I hold almost all opinions provisionally. This seems to bother some folks, but it works well for me. It is the way I learned how to do science and it seems to work okay in other areas of life too.
Now, important stuff (like the constancy of love, important things to teach children, and a few others), I'm pretty immovable. I'll listen and incorporate what I can from what others say (especially if they happen to be married or related to me and thus have a greater stake), but otherwise, the core doesn't really change.
btw, good topic
Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I don't think beliefs change over time, so much as they are refined. Major life events might cause a massive shift, but mostly the every day life lessons we learn changes ever so slightly our perception of things, and our views on belief change accordingly.
I think this sums up my take on how / when / and why beliefs change. I don't think they're ever a concrete aspect of ourselves, but some are certainly more entrenched than others.
Gradual changes over time don't seem to be something that's commented on, and only in passing if it's brough up at all. Drastic shifts tend to be remarked upon fairly often, and by many people. I had a whole clusterclot of circumstances heaped upon me that seemed to force such a shift upon me. It's not something I can see all that clearly myself, but this was 4 years ago and I still have people tell me I've changed (laugh less, smile less, get angry less, more quiet, that I'm more 'tempered' and so on.)
Though I probably participate more on Hatrack than any other online community, it ranks second or third in terms of affecting my beliefs. Not a lack of effort on y'all's, just a difference in subject matter.
Posted by dh (Member # 6929) on :
I came to Hatrack as non-Christian. A week later, I was a Christian.
Obviously, all my beliefs and opinions did not change overnight, but since then, I have constantly been revising what I previously thought in the light of what I now know to be true. And I don't think I'm finished with this either, I think I've just begun.
Posted by Kent (Member # 7850) on :
dh, Because of Hatrack?
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
The only real reason I participate in this forum is because my beliefs get challenged on a daily basis. People here generally overcome their immediate gut reactions to beliefs opposite their own and are able to question, criticize and examine much more evenly than you can find in most places.
The denizens of this forum also represent a huge mix of walks of life, and that helps keep things balanced. The variance in political ideology, theological belief and economic status is astounding - and it keeps the ideas on the forum from stagnating. In any online community with a homogenous population, it's so easy to just get caught up in agreeing with each other that before you know it, you aren't doing your own thinking anymore, or any thinking at all. It just becomes a back-patting fest where everyone holds an identical viewpoint on everything, and your ideas never get challenged. It can be comforting, but it's a great way to turn a human being stale.
When I read threads here on Hatrack, I'm immediately forced to consider several facets of every issue brought up. This lets me challenge my beliefs in a way that keeps me from immediately getting overly defensive: it also lets me challenge the beliefs of others the same way.
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
You could say my beliefs have transformed significantly. And Hatrack did play a part, if not explicitly directly.
Posted by dh (Member # 6929) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kent: dh, Because of Hatrack?
Not because of Hatrack, but Hatrack was a very significant, even crucial, actor in the transformation, and still is to some extent.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: One can change ones beliefs without ever questioning them, and one can question ones beliefs without ever changing them.
I'm like that with dirty underwear.
Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
Tante
The only way that joke could have been better is if the quote from Dag had been about "examining one's beliefs" instead of questioning.
--Enigmatic
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
When I was younger I was a Seventh Day Adventist, but the religion grew too tight for me, like a snake's skin. So I quit and now I have no religion, but a strong sense of spirituality.
Posted by Cali-Angel-Cat (Member # 8799) on :
I grew up Catholic and with having an ex-nun as my adopted mom, religion was crammed down my throat. I went to Catholic schools until Grade 10, then I moved to a public school closer to home.
As a teen, attendace at Mass and whatnot dwindled simply because my adopted parents no longer cared to attend church due to the fact that my younger siblings made it impossible to pay attention to services.
I studied Wicca for a few years, but the idea of having no real structure and regimine, was a problem, along with the fact that Wicca was not looked at well in my hometown.
Then in 1992, after being seriously injured at work and coping with the depression that followed, I recieved a visit from Mormon Missionaries. I was Baptized in February of 1993 and attendance went on again off again, due to family issues and attitudes, as well as my health.
Lately, I've wanted to go back to the Church. The chapel is within walking distance to the house, but I have been hesitant because my aunt and uncle are not memebers and are very anti. My aunt is also insiting on 100% participation and the right to 'babysit' when I meet with my hoome and visiting teachers.
My beliefs tied to being a Latter-Day Saint have held through all this, and yes, OSC has helped there too. A big Thank You to him. Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
Hatrack played a part in my conversion as well (from agnostic to LDS).
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
I wonder how many Post-Hatrack LDS Converts (myself included) we have floating around here. I know there's at least a few.
Posted by Cali-Angel-Cat (Member # 8799) on :
That would be interesting to find out. Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Dave, I think it's Yozhik, me, Rakeesh, Black Fox, you, Hobbes, and mackillian.
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
You forgot David Bowles. It was only for a day, but I'm sure you remember it, Tatiana. Good to see you, DB!
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Lol, Oh that's so true! That was totally memorable since I was completely convinced he was being sincere.
Posted by Cali-Angel-Cat (Member # 8799) on :
Me, but then again, not really seeing you don't have to scroll that far to see that.
I think that it is interesting to see that OSC's faith has reached a good number of us. It may have not been intentional,(Just my guess here.) but on some level the missionary just came out.
When I began working on the one work I have in progress, I didn't intend for my beliefs to be part of the book, but low and behold, it happened. I just started writing and when I read over what I had wrote, the Church was part of the story.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Honestly, I think it has had the opposite effect on me. I am not trying to be rude, or confronational about it, but the one thing I am sure I am NOT is LDS, and Hatrack has confirmed that more than once.
I respect the people here who are LDS for having faith in their religion, but I have never felt any sort of resonance with it in any of the conversations here at Hatrack at all...it just isn't right for me, I guess.
I do know that I am far more tolerant about other religions, LDS in specific (and religion in general, to be even more honest), since I have learned more about them here on Hatrack, though. The fact that we have so many people from so many faiths represented here at Hatrack is one of the best things about it, IMO. Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
quote: The fact that we have so many people from so many faiths represented here at Hatrack is one of the best things about it, IMO. [Wink]
I agree with Kwea on this!
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I have to admit that I don't get the attraction of Mormonism over any other religion. I mean, why haven't more, or an equal, number of people converted to Catholicism or Judaism or Methodist Christianity? All those religions are represented on Hatrack by very fine people.
I'm not trying to start a fight or anything, and I know that the question probably won't (or can't?) be answered, but I honestly don't get it.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I had a whole conversion story typed in and almost posted here, that I lost yesterday. It doesn't matter, this is probably not the place for it, anyway. It's enough to say that I'm LDS because of hatrack, and being LDS has changed me greatly for the better.
In fact, I am a different person entirely since I came online, and most of that is due to Hatrack, since this had been my home on the web for 7 or 8 years. Here are some of the ways I changed.
1. Global outlook. Because I now have friends and acquintences scattered across the planet, I don't think of the news in terms of my city, state, country only nowadays. If a huge disaster occurs halfway around the world, nowadays I probably have a pretty good friend who lives in the area, or at least who has close family there. I get to hear first person ordinary-people accounts, like the New Orleans blogger (whom I discoverd from a link on hatrack). The world is now my neighborhood because of hatrack.
2. Amazing people. Some of the people I've met here, I've admired greatly and they have taught me true things (through their posts as well as emails and chats) that I'll never forget. Claudia Therese, Survivor, and Slash the Berzerker are a few of these who come to mind but there are many more.
3. Great Books. Hatrackers and threads have persuaded me to read a huge slew of good books that I would not otherwise have encountered. Chaim Potok, Thomas Mann, Franz Kafka, Goethe, Hermann Hesse, (wow, lots of Germans), Mark Salzman, Lois McMaster Bujold, Octavia Butler (Uncle Orson's doing from the How to Write SF book), and many others. Good stories change you, as you incorporate them into who you are. (Again love is the key to the change. It only happens if you love the book, the characters, the story. Maybe you're onto something here, Irami.)
4. Closest friends and family. Saudade, Bernard, Jaiden, Sasha, Noah, Grisha, BunnV, kaioshin00, my very favoritest people in the whole world, whom I talk to almost every day (except for some of you not enough ... you know who you are... ) and who change me daily and hourly as they teach me by their wonderful examples, things like perserverance, strength, stoicism, joyfulness, kindness, committment, loyalty, cheerfulness, grace, consideration, tact, courtesy, and true character, not to mention all the other cool stuff they teach me and share with me.
I think whoever thinks none change their minds and hearts on Hatrack is totally mistaken. They are probably spot on, though, that nobody changes through argument and contention. Irami has it right when he says people change because of love.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:If one is the type to question ones beliefs, then being "closeminded" in the sense of seldom changing ones beliefs is a predictable state. The longer you've been alive, the longer you've questioned your beliefs. The more you've questioned your beliefs, the less likely a new question is to change them.
I don't think this logic holds true - because there is an infinite number of ways to question your belief. Thus, no matter how much you question your beliefs, there are still just as many ways to question them.
I think the "closedmindedness" of adults is caused by something else, perhaps a natural tendency. But I don't think it is logical, and I don't think it is necessary. I think it must either be possible to be an adult while continuing to keep an open mind, or to avoid ever becoming an adult in at least that one particular way. In fact, I've met people who have seemed to accomplish this, although its hard to tell for sure.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: I have to admit that I don't get the attraction of Mormonism over any other religion. I mean, why haven't more, or an equal, number of people converted to Catholicism or Judaism or Methodist Christianity? All those religions are represented on Hatrack by very fine people.
I'm not trying to start a fight or anything, and I know that the question probably won't (or can't?) be answered, but I honestly don't get it.
Oh, I can answer! <waves hand wildly>
Short answer: Because it's true.
Expanded answer: Because the testimony of the spirit inside your heart and mind teaches you the truth of it when you ask sincerely in faith, and listen for the reply.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:I don't think this logic holds true - because there is an infinite number of ways to question your belief. Thus, no matter how much you question your beliefs, there are still just as many ways to question them.
But consideration done for one question can be relevant to an infinite number of other questions. And the network of interactions between questions can cover even more.
quote:I think the "closedmindedness" of adults is caused by something else, perhaps a natural tendency. But I don't think it is logical, and I don't think it is necessary. I think it must either be possible to be an adult while continuing to keep an open mind, or to avoid ever becoming an adult in at least that one particular way. In fact, I've met people who have seemed to accomplish this, although its hard to tell for sure.
Are you equating "close-mindedness" with seldom questioning your beliefs or with seldom changing ones beliefs?
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: Oh, I can answer! <waves hand wildly>
Short answer: Because it's true.
Expanded answer: Because the testimony of the spirit inside your heart and mind teaches you the truth of it when you ask sincerely in faith, and listen for the reply.
Well, there it is. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:I have to admit that I don't get the attraction of Mormonism over any other religion. I mean, why haven't more, or an equal, number of people converted to Catholicism or Judaism or Methodist Christianity? All those religions are represented on Hatrack by very fine people.
I'm not trying to start a fight or anything, and I know that the question probably won't (or can't?) be answered, but I honestly don't get it.
I think it's because few religions mission as actively in the U.S. as LDS do.
The Catholic Church gained a little less than 5 million people through baptisms for people over the age of 7 in 1997 (most Catholics are baptized as infants, so most of this almost 5 million represent conversions). In the U.S., there were about 150,000 adult converts to Catholicism that year.
I believe the numbers I read for Mormon conversions worldwide were 300,000 or so. I'm not sure how that breaks down domestically.
The number of converts per existing member are much higher for Mormons than Catholics, and their mission work in the U.S. is far more visible. Plus, there are more Mormons here than would proportionally be present if the board reflected the demographics of the country as a whole.
That may be why you hear about more Mormon conversions than others.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Slightly more expanded answer: There are truths that you know without anyone teaching you, things that are just axioms that we never question, (or if we philosophically intellectually question them sometimes, we don't REALLY question them in the sense that we might ever really act as if they aren't true).
I'll give some examples. 1) That other people are people the same as ourselves, that they have some sort of feelings and internal life, that they feel pain when they injure their bodies, etc. This is not supported by the observable evidence very well at all. After all, my nose appears to me as a pinkish blurry semi-transparent blob on the left and right of my visual field. Your nose is perfectly solid and you only have one of them. I have access to my own thoughts, but yours are closed to me, etc. But something in my makeup tells me that acting as though you're the same sort of being as me is true and right. It was not something I ever learned or decided.
2) That the universe really exists, and isn't just an illusion, or a meaningless kaleidoscope of raw sensory impressions. That we ourselves exist. That there's some sort of objective reality outside my head, that I may have imperfect knowledge of, but it really exists. There's something real out there that I'm interacting with.
3) That this body is mine, it belongs to me, these arms and legs and so on are part of me. People with damage to certain brain areas can lose this sense about one or more limbs, and they will try to push their own legs out of bed, saying stuff like "somebody's leg is in my bed". So the knowledge that your limbs are your own is not something you ever learn. It's hardwired, and the wiring can sometimes go wrong.
4) There are many more things like that, but you get the idea. I'm talking about knowledge that never has to be learned and is almost never seriously questioned. Someone (Kant?) called this stuff "a priori" knowlege.
The knowledge that the spirit brings when you ask sincerely in faith and listen for the answer is knowledge like this. It's a much truer sort of truth than secondary knowledge like how to add 5 and 5, or what I had for breakfast today (oops, nothing yet, I need to eat! ).
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
While I appreciate your considered reply, Dagonee, I was speaking of all the people on Hatrack who had converted. Sorry I wasn't clear.
Just out of curiosity, has anyone converted to anything other than LDS since they've been here?
For myself, as I have stated before, my stay at Hatrack has taught me that there is no such thing as religion, really. Only beliefs.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Storm, I think both the proportion of LDS here and the mission focus can account for much of that.
Didn't mack say she reverted to Catholicism?
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
I "converted" to Catholicism since I was here the first time although my religious beliefs did not really change.
In a non-religious way I went from mostly voting as an old school (pre-Gingrich) republican to being and active liberal Democrat.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Could very well be.
I thought both Mack and T_Smith were taking a time out from belonging to any kind of organized religion? Or something. They really haven't said, and I really don't want to pry, as I imagine it might be a tender issue.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Wow, that's kind of interesting, km, as you hear more often about people going in the other direction, liberal to conservative. What made you change your views, if you wouldn't mind me asking?
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
I don't know if this is what you were aiming to communicate, but if you equate belief with the core of being, then my opinion is that believing people don't change is buying a one way ticket to the looney bin.
I was married to someone who believed that people don't change. They might change their hair, their overall look, but fundamentally, (he believed) they don't change. Can't change. I think this outlook on life was critical to the depression he's lived with the entire time I've known him. If you don't think people can change, then you have to believe YOU can't change, and when encountering things about yourself you don't like, there is no hope. None at all. Worse, if you ever suspect that you are unloved and therefore unlovable (as I suspect he thought, and may still think) this too cannot change. It's hopeless.
I also think that the hopelessness that comes from the belief that people cannot change is utterly incompatible with love. Love always hopes, always believes. So not only can you not accept love, you can't give it either.
I believe that the capacity to change is necessary to happiness, to love, to being loved, to healthy relationships.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: I don't know if this is what you were aiming to communicate, but if you equate belief with the core of being, then my opinion is that believing people don't change is buying a one way ticket to the looney bin.
No, no, no, no. Jebus, I have defended people's ability to change many times on this forum.
I'm saying that everyone has beliefs, and whether or not they belong to a large group who has codified those beliefs, that doesn't change the value of those beliefs to both the individual and society. I'm saying, again, that I don't know whether the word religion really has much semantic value to me.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
I was raised as a Baptist and was currently a Lutheran by marriage when I started Hatrack. I was never very happy there and was becoming increasingly so along with my wife. When we started looking at other denominations, I don't think I would have really considered Methodist except for the presence of Dana here.
We are now Methodists and I can honestly say I have never felt like I fit in, from a religious perspective, as much as I do now.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
That's awesome, zgator. Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
StormSaxon,
It's hard to summarize, but here goes...
I think it's because I lost some of the arrogance of youth. I tended to think that people got what they deserved both good and bad. If I had something, it was because I had "earned" it. If someone else didn't it was because they hadn't. As I saw more of life than the reasonably comfortable suburb where I grew up, I realized that this was hardly the case. I am not "worth" proportionaly more that the people who live on the el or proportionally less than some trust fund baby who has everything money can buy. I realized that a just world is the one you would design if you didn't know who your parents would be.
And nature favors those who are already lucky. The gap is getting wider and wider all the time. This is how nature works. I think as human beings we can do better.
Posted by Tim (Member # 8657) on :
Thank you everyone who shared their personal experiences. There appears to be a significant number of people who have been deeply touched by Hatrack in their lives. So I understand better what people have said in response to the question would you say the following conclusions are accurate?
1) Some people questions their beliefs all the time. Directly and indirectly. 2) The point of questioning a belief is more to reassure ourselves that what we believe is true and sound. 3) If a belief in a particular domain hasn't been established then a new belief is adopted without much challenge. 4) If a belief in a particular domain has already been established then it is extremely difficult to change that belief, especially the more it is questioned and continues ( sometimes being referred to as close-mindedness in this thread), and usually takes an equally strong force like love ( or a tragedy) to make a change.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
That was interesting, km. Thanks. Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Stormy, I actually meant that post to be for Tim, but I smiled at your answer, especially swearing to Jebus.
For changing beliefs, I've been Mormon, agnostic, atheist, and now just a plain old non-denominational Christian. I'm very happy with my current beliefs, as they came rather hard won. I wavered between agnosticsm and atheism for 15 years, give or take, and had it stolen away by stuff I just couldn't account for any other way than miraculous. Nothing big, just lots of small stuff that cumulatively was too good to just explain away as coincidence. But the real clincher was needing to change the way I was living, and truthfully, I only found it possible through Jesus.
Posted by Tim (Member # 8657) on :
Oh sorry jeniwren I didn't realize you were asking me. As you see in my follow up post I do believe people can change their beliefs. But I also believe that it takes a very strong force for that change to happen, unless it just isn't a strongly held belief. But the more strongly held the more it is defended. Perhaps without realizing it people seem to vehemently hold onto a belief.
At some point in our lives we had no belief, right? Then we adopt beliefs because we decided something or our community around us tells us what to believe. Then it would seem that we hold tightly until an equal ( or strong ) force makes us change it. So then, what is really needed for someone to open themselves up for change without having to go through some type of upheaval? Is it even possible? Do our beliefs become so much of our identity, of who we are, that we feel "wrong" if our belief is not defended?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: So then, what is really needed for someone to open themselves up for change without having to go through some type of upheaval?
That's an excellent question, Tim. I think some of it is sense of self; I know some people who are capable of literally changing their entire worldview at the drop of a pin, upon even the slightest contradiction -- but these people are in the minority. For most people, I think they need to find themselves in a position where their current worldview simply isn't satisfying them anymore, for some reason.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
I really think it's love or at least deep affection; I don't know if it's necessary, but it seems to be sufficient to open someone up. Then you have to let the quality of the idea do the rest of the work.
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