First, to avoid confusion, I'm going to have to clear something up. My name is Heni, I'm 16 and I started this Register name of Rusta-burger. I think it was just to ask OSC a question about IGMS. Then I got sick of trying to keep up with you guys and my friend Mitch, who I introduced to hatrack, decided to use this email since I'm not using it anymore. (except now, this is the last time). So you have 3 different people using this account apparently but after this that's going to stop. Glad I got that cleared up.
Too my point, because I'v been reading through OSCs and Mitchs threads, I realise you guys are very good at logicalising things. Well, I'd like your advice on my current dilemma, which is more important to me than anything else right now, though ths will probably be a mouthful so you have been warned.
Okay, so last year I read enders game, which lead me to wanting to read more, and eventually wanting to become a science fiction author when I grow up, and to hatrack, finding out OSC is a mormon, studying that, and then finally coming to the decision that I wanted to read the book of mormon (which I no have done).
I later found out the library had it but at this point I never thought of that. So I went to my friend (I'll keep his name disclosed but I'll cll him John to avoid confusion) and asked him if he had learnt to sing in church. He said yes! Hows me luck, eh? I had more or less assumed he was a LDS because he played basketball (so I assumed he was american - which hes not, but lucky again) and because he could sing in such a way that only people who go to church here can sing. Now we live close and theres two very close churches near our houses.
At this point I still didnt know mormonism and the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints was the same thing so it wasn't as simple as just going and checking. So, yeah, he was a mormon and he introduced me to heaps more (this was like november) and i went to church with him a few times.
But then my family had a problem with it for some reason, and they still do. I missed out on the chance to be baptised and fell into a sort of depression over not goin to church anymore.
When i got over that I kept saying to John I meant to come to church again but couldnt bring my self to go through tht again. Then, for a reason that woud take for ever to explain, I'm positive I want to do it this month and get baptised. But... Johns done something really rude and I'm not speaking to him. i had wanted him to baptise me but he really didnt give an answer then soon after i got mad at him. But i hav another friend whose also able to baptise me and ive come to wanting him to do it instead and he convinced me not to worry about John being at church.
So now I'm deadset about ding it, which means going to church next saturday for a start, but i have two problems. I don't know how to suddenly bring this up to my family, and I don't know what to say to them. My older brother was the final straw last time and he's always the most convincing, so I was thinking I should talk to him before anyone else.
So, if youve just read all that, what do you suggest I do?
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
I think you should read the Communist Manifesto first. You've given the theists their chance, why not let the other team have a crack at it?
Posted by Rusta-burger (Member # 8753) on :
What's a theist. And i should also point out that i realise i made a lot of mistakes in that, but it seems like too many, so ill just say i mean sunday instead of saturday in the second last paragraph. And what is it in communist manifesto thats so interesting?
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
You are really serious? A theist is someone who believes in gods. From greek 'theos'. Opposite of a-theist.
As for the Communist Manifesto, it's actually not very interesting at all, it was just the first example I could think up of a major atheist work. The point I was subtly trying to make is that you don't have to choose between your parents' religion and mormonism; there are lots of religions, plus atheism.
It's a pretty useless dichotomy, anyway : Like choosing between the Invisible Pink Unicorn (may Her hooves never be shod) and the Flying Spghetti Monster. At 16, you should be a bit too old for imaginary friends.
Posted by Rusta-burger (Member # 8753) on :
My parents aren't athiests! What a thing to assume. :S My mums actually a catholic and my dads a protestant. I've been to other churches is my life. I've been an athiest for a time. AND... I've even been a pastafarian. So
And don't diss the pastafarians! At least they believe in Something! It seems logical enough that, even if god isn't a flying spaghetti monster, he'd still be angry about a decline in Pirates. Who isn't!?
Posted by Rusta-burger (Member # 8753) on :
By the way, I had to stop being a pastafarian because I felt guilty about eati paghetti, which I had for dinner tonight matter-of-fact.
How can you at the same time compare the LDS church to imaginary friends and at the same time recommend I go check out other religions. I can see that you have no grounds for your beliefs beyon cynicism.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
I didn't assume they were; I did say "your parents' religion". That usually exclusdes atheism. But however that may be, could you explain again why you want to get baptised? If you were a pastafarian (foul heretics that they are) then surely you realise just how silly this is? So are you just annoying your parents, or getting in good with your friend, or what?
By the way, how the devil does this follow?
quote:I had more or less assumed he was a LDS because he played basketball
Posted by Cali-Angel-Cat (Member # 8799) on :
My advice is to pray. As Heavenly Father to grant you guiedance on this issue. If you believe, the answer will come.
I am not able to be active. (See the May I Vent for details.) But I do watch the part of services that BYU has on tv online, along with other programs that keep me centered and make me feel connected.
Also the Church's website has an online set of scriptures and has the magazines online and the New Era is just for people your age.
quote:Originally posted by Rusta-burger: How can you at the same time compare the LDS church to imaginary friends and at the same time recommend I go check out other religions.
I intended that by becoming aware of other religions, you should realise that they all revolve around imaginary friends. But I can see that wasn't necessary. The question remains, what are you getting out of this?
By the way, I wonder if you are aware of the question-mark? On my keyboard you get it with Shift-/, which is down and to the right.
Posted by Rusta-burger (Member # 8753) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: By the way, how the devil does this follow?
quote:I had more or less assumed he was a LDS because he played basketball
I have no idea. I guess I'm just more logical than you. You may be the king of men but your dealing with the burger king, mate.
I have prayed and got my answer. I really suggest you d this. I have felt an overwhelming feeling of the holy ghost every time I've been involved with the church. Why do you think I became depressed after I had to leave?
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Becuase your sense of self is not very strong, and therefore you skip from church to church, desperately seeking validation?
More to the point, how do you know 'the holy ghost' is not yesterday's burger?
Posted by Rusta-burger (Member # 8753) on :
"But I do watch the part of services that BYU has on tv onlinedCould you give me the link for this please?
Posted by Rusta-burger (Member # 8753) on :
KoM, why do you feel you must spend your time sitting at a computer screen arguing with a 16 year old? I came here for advice, not an argument.
Posted by Cali-Angel-Cat (Member # 8799) on :
Rusta:
I've been where you are now. I think the depression stems from the fact that when you are at church and involved you feel like you belong and like you're part of something that matters, and when you go home, you're an outsider, your different.
I want to tell you something a Missionary once told me: The Church is true, but people will not always be.
A person's religious beliefs are a perosnal thing and each of us should have the freedom to choose our own path.
Btw, I know sort of how the basketball assumption came to be. I used to go and watch Brigham Young University sports on Saturdays in the Cultural Hall of my old Ward. The Missionaries would play basketbakll during the commercial. There are members of the Church in nearly every sport.
Posted by Cali-Angel-Cat (Member # 8799) on :
Rusta chck the post where I advised you to pray. The links are at the bottom of the post that I edited.
Posted by Rusta-burger (Member # 8753) on :
Thank you. I'm reading the New Era right now.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rusta-burger: KoM, why do you feel you must spend your time sitting at a computer screen arguing with a 16 year old? I came here for advice, not an argument.
And I am indeed giving you advice, to wit, back out. Get some real friends instead, preferably ones that don;t require you to go through silly rituals.
Posted by Cali-Angel-Cat (Member # 8799) on :
Anytime.
The manuals for the year are on the Church website too. They'll be changing in, I think January 2006.
I have a cd where I have all the magazines and manuals kept. Never know when you may need something for a talk. And on the BYU site, you can set the schedule to your time zone so you know when things are being aired. They post a schedule too.
I've been watching the program called Joseph. It's good.
Posted by Rusta-burger (Member # 8753) on :
KoM stop, NOW! You jump to too many conclusions. I'd rather you just not come into this topic. Please. I'm not saying any more in here, on on this rgistry, that's it. But I will still be reading, so do send advice please folks.
Posted by Dante (Member # 1106) on :
Rusta-burger, just ignore King of Men. He is one of the least pleasant people I have ever had the misfortune of "meeting," and he is a virulent and closed-minded atheist who can't accept that someone could be a believing Christian and a bright person. His opinions on religion are useless, and I know I would find Hatrack a much more pleasant place if he weren't here.
Good luck in whatever you decide.
Posted by enochville (Member # 8815) on :
Rusta-burger: I am LDS and I'd like to help you with your situation, but I'm not sure that I understand your situation well enough to say anything, yet. You said that your family had a problem with the church. Can you explain that a little? I can't remember if it is church policy not to baptize people under 18 without their parents consent. But, it maybe. If they don't consent you may have to wait 2 years. I know that will seem like an eternity to you, but you'll make it.
You also said, "My older brother was the final straw last time and he's always the most convincing, so I was thinking I should talk to him before anyone else". Can you explain?
Posted by Cali-Angel-Cat (Member # 8799) on :
You do have Brothers and Sisters in the Gospel that are willing to advise you and listen. That is the one thing that can reallly help you.
Don't fall silent just because one tries to deter you from the path.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
Umm ... King of Men isn't one. There are going to be loads of people just like him. I personally tend to take the viewpoint that he's just having fun provoking people, usually in an introspective way. But there are tons of people out there who will try to get you to doubt your beliefs, and a lot of times they will be enormously intelligent. So be prepared for it. And do keep a good supply of "Brothers and Sisters in the Gospel that are willing to advise you and listen" handy. umm ... yeah, so I know that didn't directly pertain to your situation, but if you are about to embark on a journey of faith, I just thoughht to arm you a bit. This coming from a 17 year old who vaguely knows how you feel. Good luck.
Posted by sillygoose (Member # 1616) on :
Rusta, I'm 18 and a member of the church. I'm so happy for you that you were able to find the gospel in your life. Believe me, I know it can be hard sometimes to remain faithful when everyone around you is telling you that you are wrong. But, I also know that you can make it through any difficult situation with the help of our Heavenly Father. Remember that He is always with you, and that He will never let you down if you just believe and pray with a sincere heart. Good luck with everything, and never be afraid to ask the missionaries or any member of the church for help.
Posted by Theaca (Member # 8325) on :
I'm not lds. But I just wanted to say that I didn't get any feeling from your posts of WHY you want to be baptised, or that you really understand what you are committing to, in a baptism. Or why you want it right now. Do you truly believe in and have studied the beliefs of the church?
Posted by Cali-Angel-Cat (Member # 8799) on :
quote:And do keep a good supply of "Brothers and Sisters in the Gospel that are willing to advise you and listen" handy. umm ... yeah, so I know that didn't directly pertain to your situation.
It pertains because at least here Rusta can come and know that there are people of like Faith that can give advice and be a listening ear when it is needed.
And so that there is no confusion, my mentioning Brothers and Sisters is because that is a common form of address among members, unless you are an Authority or a Missonary. (Although female Missionaries are still called Sister.)
I also know that KoM is not a member, if there was confusion there, I apologize.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
My recommendation would be to first decide what you think are good reasons to base you decision on, and which reasons are bad. Consider the following:
-Not joining a church because your family doesn't want you to -Joining a church because an author you admire belongs to it -Joining a church because you met a nice guy who belongs to it -Not joing a church because you no longer like that guy -Joing a church for whatever these reasons that would take for ever to explain are
Think about these and all the other reasons you might have for making your decision. They are all valid reasons, but if you think about them, you will probably conclude some are good reasons and some are bad reasons. Once you figure out which is which, take a look at only the reasons you consider to be good reasons, and then make your decision. Then you will not only have an idea of what you are doing, but WHY you should do it, and why that reason is a good one.
If you decide to join that church, tell your family in whatever way seems right to you. Since you should know what you are doing, why are you are doing it, and why that reason is a good one, you should be able to explain it to them. They might totally disagree, but at least they will know why you are doing what you are doing. If they give reasons why you SHOULDN'T do what you want, then think about their reasons and whether they really do trump your reasons. If their reasons are better than yours, listen to them. If your reasons are better than theirs, in your view, then tell them you have to do it anyway.
I'm sure you will make a good decision. If it turns out wrong, it is always possible to change. After all, Catholicism, Protestantism, and Mormonism all generally agree that you can be forgiven when errors are made.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I just want to add my support to what's been said before. Rusta, when I joined the church all my family were against it. My mother said she and my father had discussed it and they decided that I just turned off my brain. That was 4 years ago and my Dad is now dead but my Mom is much more reconciled to me being in the church. After the tsunami last year she even donated to the church Humanitarian Fund.
If you aren't yet 18, you can't be baptised without your parents consent, but you can continue going to church, reading scriptures and church magazines, praying, and receiving the companionship of the spirit, if your parents refuse to consent. Then when you turn 18 your baptism and confirmation will be all the sweeter, because you had to wait.
Please email me at annekateard AT bham DOT rr DOT com if you have any questions or if there's any way I can help, or you can message me on AIM at TheRopeOfAllah.
Posted by Cali-Angel-Cat (Member # 8799) on :
You can contact me too if you wish.
Shdowdragonrose@gmail.com
On messenger, AIM and Yahoo, the nickname I use the most is Kuruni121302.
Feel free to contact me.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Rusta, I would recommend that before you undertake the baptism that you at least read the Book of Mormon.
Posted by Cali-Angel-Cat (Member # 8799) on :
Read it and pray about what you have read. Let the Holy Ghost be your guide.
quote: And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. (Moroni 10:4-5)
Posted by Heni (Member # 8824) on :
Okay, I'll post again but I've got a new emailas you can see. I'll just clear some things up:
quote:Originally posted by Tresopax: -Not joining a church because your family doesn't want you to -Joining a church because an author you admire belongs to it -Joining a church because you met a nice guy who belongs to it -Not joing a church because you no longer like that guy -Joing a church for whatever these reasons that would take for ever to explain are
tres, i don't know if you meant these literally but among the first four at no point were reasons for me to join. And I have no reason not to join. As for the fifth one, I've sort of already explained that when i said about praying and everything, but I don't think non-mormons (I'of course, am the only exception to that rule <grin>) will understand this and mormons won't need me to say more because they already understand.
Theaca, I do understand what I'm commiting to and I want to be baptised so I can be a full member of the church. Simple as that. Why I want it right now is because I feel I'm ready, finally, and why wait? And regarding "Do you truly believe in and have studied the beliefs of the church?". Yep.
enochville, regarding "You said that your family had a problem with the church. Can you explain that a little?" That's just things like how if you get married my mums worried she'll miss my wedding, you know, the usual. I want her to sit down with the bishop at the nearby ward and actually talk to him but she won't. She's talked to a "sister" on the phone at one point though.
My brother was just a matter of I thought he was more open minded and he would've seen the pain I was in and taken my side. But he didn't and I was shocked. And he's very convincing, no to me, but to the rest of my family so they think if they've got his support (and more often than not they don't) they've got nothing to worry about. And with no family to support me I just gave up. Now I need to figure out how exactly to get their support.
Also, I was made a catholic by my mum until I was six when she quit because she didn't like one of their policies. I was six years old at the time so I don't get KoM's comment about me not having a "sense of self" because I apparently I "skip from church to church, desperately seeking validation?" I've never been a protestant, I thought an athiest was someone who believed in God but didnt belong to a church, and I was a pastafarian for a while because I think Pirates are cool and my mates and I were all into it. (We were kids who liked to think of God as a Flying Spaghetti Monster, so what?) Get a life King of Men.
I hope I've cleared up all that I am able to on the subject. Thank you so much for your support. I've decided to see about visiting my other friends (the one who I want to baptise me now) dad for a talk on the subject. I'm pretty sure he's one of the elders in the ward I want to go to. And my family will not know about this talk just yet, if at all.
Posted by Theaca (Member # 8325) on :
Does the Book of Mormon have beliefs and rules written out? I'd imagine the Book of Mormon is a fascinating read, especially for a science fiction fan, but the actual rules and beliefs are written in the Doctrine and Covenants. I'd suggest looking at that as well.
Posted by Heni (Member # 8824) on :
I havn't actually read the D&C or Pearl of great Price. I mean, I've had glimpses but not like I've read and studied the BoM. I'll have to get around to that asap.
Posted by Theaca (Member # 8325) on :
*sigh*
I know it's bad, but I can't look at at Heni without thinking of heinie. I'm going to start thinking of the name as Henri, that might help me.
Posted by Heni (Member # 8824) on :
it's a native kiwi (new zealander) name. you can call me that if you want. i have a friend from china who lives in america and i call her by her french name so i'd be a bit of a hypocrit if i thought otherwise. by the way, sorry for the lack of capitals. i'm feeling lazy.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Does the Book of Mormon have beliefs and rules written out? I'd imagine the Book of Mormon is a fascinating read, especially for a science fiction fan, but the actual rules and beliefs are written in the Doctrine and Covenants. I'd suggest looking at that as well.
Actually, there are rules set forth in the Book of Mormon, same as in the Bible. But you're right, most of the important modern-day stuff is in the D&C. You can probably skip the PoGP for now, Heni, if you're not ready for it; not that it's not beautiful and profound, but it's not as essential to understanding the rules we are asked to live by.
Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
In response to what you say about Johh.
There are 2 types of conversion: social and doctrinal. Some people believe that doctrinal is the only conversion that matters but I don't believe so. Mainly because if Christ's teachings are true, we should be gathering together to strengthen ourselves.
So I believe both are important. And IMO both are fragile, in fact, social conversion may be more fragile. I have been offended so many times that if I relied on friends, I would have quit going to church a long time ago.
It is good that I still have people I can count on.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: By the way, how the devil does this follow?
quote:I had more or less assumed he was a LDS because he played basketball
Because such a large percentage of the NBA is LDS, duh!
Posted by Heni (Member # 8824) on :
There was no prank. I don't know where you got that idea from. When I told you what i did in the first post here in VITM I seriously thought you could help me. And you did! I told you that thing with the basketball not because I thought it would make you laugh. I said it because I thought it was fate. Nothing I have said has been a lie (except when conan used my registry to do that stupid little prank) That was a prank!
I honestly can't believe the members of hatrack I have watched for over a month when OSC started posting, wouldn't be like this. How could you think what I told you here was part of a prank! Yopu can all go to hell!
Posted by Cali-Angel-Cat (Member # 8799) on :
I don't think it was a prank. I do consider it unfair that all the members of Hatrack are being lumped together as thinking that.
Shawn Bradley plays basketball and went on his Mission, so there is nothing wrong with basketball and being LDS.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote:Originally posted by Heni: There was no prank. I don't know where you got that idea from. When I told you what i did in the first post here in VITM I seriously thought you could help me. And you did! I told you that thing with the basketball not because I thought it would make you laugh. I said it because I thought it was fate. Nothing I have said has been a lie (except when conan used my registry to do that stupid little prank) That was a prank!
I honestly can't believe the members of hatrack I have watched for over a month when OSC started posting, wouldn't be like this. How could you think what I told you here was part of a prank! Yopu can all go to hell!
Well, first thing you should know is that telling us all to go to hell won't endear us to you. It's not generally seen as a way of making friends and influencing people. On the other hand, as far as I know, we don't have a username of Yopu, so perhaps it won't matter that you're telling Yopu to go to hell..
Second thing you should know is that there have, historically, been a lot of trolls and general trouble makers who post here with multiple screen names and, well, do all sorts of naughty stuff.
Eh. It happens.
Posted by Yopu (Member # 8827) on :
quote:Originally posted by Heni: Yopu can all go to hell!
You... Scoundrel! How dare you talk to me that way! I am deeply deeply offended!!!!!!
Posted by Theaca (Member # 8325) on :
quote:I had more or less assumed he was a LDS because he played basketball (so I assumed he was american - which hes not, but lucky again) and because he could sing in such a way that only people who go to church here can sing.
Well, that is all still a mystery to me. Basketball players are all lds and American, and only people who sing in church are lds? But if you knew he sang like someone who sang in church, why would you assume his was an lds singing voice when you'd obviously never been in an lds church before?
quote:then finally coming to the decision that I wanted to read the book of mormon (which I no have done).
And here you are clearly saying you have NOT read the BOM. Rather an unfortunate typo, there.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Yopu, your collective mind is using too many exclamation points again. Posted by Yopu (Member # 8827) on :
!!!!!! No!!!!!! That!!!! Is!!!!! Not!!!!! Possible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
Posted by tern (Member # 7429) on :
Heni, do you play basketball? If not, you can't get baptized.
Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
Tonight is a funny night on this forum...
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
It's all the full moons . . .
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:tres, i don't know if you meant these literally but among the first four at no point were reasons for me to join. And I have no reason not to join.
Are you sure? It sounds like these reasons are impacting your decision, given that your baptism plans have been altered both by your family's opinion and your friendship (or lack thereof) with this fellow.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
What a strange thread.
Posted by mle (Member # 8830) on :
I just read this on the rules page when I registered: You also agree that you will not use this forum to try to convert people to your own religious beliefs, or to disparage others for their own religious beliefs." I know it's probably not my place to ask, but why hasn't King of Men been kicked off here?
Here's the whole reason Heni wants to convert, as far as I know. I imagine the reason he didn't want to tell you all this is because it shows just how dysfunctional our family is.
We both grew up in America until I was 17 and Heni was 9. Last year Heni came across the LDS church and spent about 2 months going to church. In this time he made plenty of friends with other saints, including Mitch. I had already been going to Church with Heni but soon Mitch bought a house in the South of Perth asked me to come live with him. I said yes and shortly after he proposed to me. After I left, mum told Heni she didn't want him going to church anymore.
Heni often comes to visit, and when he's by himself on some sundays he comes to church with us. Now though, I've converted and am getting married in a Latter-day Saint temple. This is the reason Heni so urgently wants to become a mormon. There is no option of waiting until he is 18.
Posted by Theaca (Member # 8325) on :
Oooh. That opened more questions than it answered. So, you are saying that if he gets baptized soon he can see you get married? That's a terrible reason to get baptized, imo.
I can see why your mom is upset. It isn't logical, but I can understand it. SHE won't be able to see the wedding.
quote:There is no option of waiting until he is 18.
What?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
He has to wait until he is 18 if your mother won't consent. That's the rules, and I had to abide by them too, like it or not.
And also, he couldn't attend the sealing; you have to have already gone through the Temple to attend. So this is not making sense to me.
Posted by mle (Member # 8830) on :
That's not his reason for getting baptised, that's his reason for getting baptised asap. Yes, mum was upset when I converted and she'll no doubt be when Heni does. But that's just her. Even my older brother (refer to first post) agrees she has a problem with other peoples beliefs. But let's not go into that, it's personal.
Regarding the marriage thing, I think you should talk to some actual latter-day saints regarding the whole "sacred, not secret" thing if you don't already know before you jump to any conclusions.
Posted by mle (Member # 8830) on :
Just so you know ketchupqueen, the wedding's not until next year.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I am an "actual latter-day [sic] saint".
And Heni still won't be able to attend the wedding-- he's only 16. So unless you postpone it until he's old enough to go to the Temple, I'm very confused as to the rushing it-- especially since going to the Temple should be because he's ready to go, not because someone else is getting married. My husband didn't attend his brother's sealing and it didn't kill him. And since I'm a convert, none of my family came to ours. We had a ring ceremony instead. So I'm still really confused.
Posted by mle (Member # 8830) on :
Oh okay. Never mind what i said then. Mitch will have to clear this up for me.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
And anyone who hasn't received their own endowments cannot attend a sealing in the temple. Given that Heni is 16, he won't have the option of getting his own endowments until he's either going on a mission, getting married, or old enough that his bishop/branch president and stake president feel that he is stable enough in the gospel. That does not happen at 17 years old. KQ knows that quite well as she is LDS. As am I, as well as a whole lot of other folks on this forum.
The statement that there's no option of waiting for Heni to get baptized because you're getting married in the temple next year do not make sense.
If there's some other reason in there, you might like to clarify. And please don't assume that, just because we don't understand your reasoning or we disagree with it that we don't understand how rules in the LDS church work.
Edit to add: evidently, I typed this up in super-slow speed while the other two posts above mine got posted. Ah well.
Posted by Cali-Angel-Cat (Member # 8799) on :
Quid? Are we typing with two fingers instead of both hands? *Wink*
This I don't really get. It seems, pardon me if I offend anyone, self-centered to get baptized so that you could rush to get the proper things done to see someone Sealed.
It took me two years after I was baptized start the ball rolling for my recogmends. I have been a member since 1993, not very active, mind you, and it will be sometime before I can go into the Temple.
My point is this: Baptism should mean something to the person, something more then personal gain. The same with going to the Temple. Both are Sacred experiences and should be treated as such, and not be rushed into.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:I just read this on the rules page when I registered: You also agree that you will not use this forum to try to convert people to your own religious beliefs, or to disparage others for their own religious beliefs." I know it's probably not my place to ask, but why hasn't King of Men been kicked off here?
Just because the user's agreement says this does not mean that it, read literally, is actually a forum rule. It should be noted that a very large number of people on this forum violate this "rule" on a regular basis. Read literally, I have violated it in most religious threads I have taken part in, because I think my religious beliefs are right and will try to convince people of that whenever the topic comes up. Atheists do the same on a regular basis. Thus, it would be unfair of moderators to enforce this rule for King of Men and not ban all the rest of us. Of course, the moderators can be unfair if they so choose, but it would still nevertheless be unfair.
Having said that, I think the real rule here (or what that sentence in the code of conduct has ended up meaning) is that while arguing for the merits to believe or disbelieve a certain religious is okay, attacking a certain religion is not. For instance, it might be okay to argue that Catholic beliefs are inconsistent with certain conclusions of science, but it would be wrong to say anyone who accepts Catholic beliefs is ignorant. And while KoM may have crossed that line in certain other threads, I don't think his suggestion in this thread that Rusta "back out" of religion is really a violation of the normal Hatrack conduct.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Tres, I'd also add to that that KoM's sole purpose here is not to convince everyone that there is no God. If it comes up in conversation, that's a different thing than coming here and spamming us with multiple threads with that sole purpose.
Posted by Rusta-burger (Member # 8753) on :
Wouldn't it be fun if we all had an agenda as strong that of KoM's we constantly tried to push.
For example, I think underground music is the best music anyway and all other music should be done away with. As an argument for that i could do what KoM does and start with Christian rock on the argument that God, supposedly, does not exist.
Okay, my agendas not that great but surely you guys could do it and show KoM what it feels like.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Most of us would rather demonstrate what constructive and respectful discussion looks like. "Hey look, I can be a bigger jerk than you" is a game that no one can win because anyone who plays has already lost. As does the forum as a whole.
Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
quote:I had already been going to Church with Heni but soon Mitch bought a house in the South of Perth asked me to come live with him. I said yes and shortly after he proposed to me.
This part of the story seems odd to me. Around here, Mormon couples don't live together before marriage, or, if they ARE living together out of wedlock, they would not get permission to be sealed in a temple until they had either (1) stopped cohabitating or (2) gotten married civilly and been married for a year.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Um, yeah, I thought so, too, but I wondered if it was the delivery of the message that was wonky . . .
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Me, too.
Posted by tern (Member # 7429) on :
quote:As an argument for that i could do what KoM does and start with Christian rock on the argument that God, supposedly, does not exist.
Hmmm. Christian rock is pretty bad, but I wouldn't say that it disproves the existance of God. Now country music, on the other hand... Posted by Cali-Angel-Cat (Member # 8799) on :
Heyyyyyyyyyyyyy! Now there are some darn good country bands! My personal favorites Diamond Rio and Sawyer Brown, both of which have Church members in them.
Sorry, but I absolutely detest rap music.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Hey, I'm with you on the rap music. And headbanger/heavy metal. Ew! Give me a migraine!
Posted by Cali-Angel-Cat (Member # 8799) on :
I rarely listen to the metal stuff, unless there is a song that helps me when I need to write an evil being in one of my books.
I would much rather listen to Classical or stuff I grew up on, like Chicago.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
"Well, that is all still a mystery to me. Basketball players are all lds and American, and only people who sing in church are lds? But if you knew he sang like someone who sang in church, why would you assume his was an lds singing voice when you'd obviously never been in an lds church before?"
Considering some of the strange ideas out there about Mormons, the statement about basketball actually didn't surprise me. My guess is that Rusta probably new Mormon missionaries at least by reputation, and playing basketball is actually another thing Mormon missionaries, or members in general, are known for.
Inside the U.S. a person who plays basket is common and ho-hum. Outside of the United States people play baseball or more likely soccer a lot more than basketball. However, basketball is one of young U.S. Mormon's favorite past-times and therefore can easily be recognized by other young people. The singing is a probable give away as basketball players of any kind are usually not known for artistic inerests.
My point is, its a cultural and not a logical recognition. Although, I could be wrong.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
All:
According to his profile, Heni lives in Australia. Basketball is a uniquely American pasttime, and since many LDS missionaries are from America, the church may be known, culturally, as a basketball playing, American-centric institution.
In many areas, missionaries use basketball and other sports to meet non-members and introduce them to the gospel. So it is entirely plausible to connect 'basketball-> Mormon,' especially since Heni is not in the US, and basketball is not (AFAIK) a big sport Down Under.
Also, most ward buildings that can have one have a basketball court. So, you know, the connection is kind of justified.
Heni: There may be other reasons that John didn't answer you about baptising him. He may not be worthy to perform the ordinance, and doesn't want to fess up to you about that. In any case-- don't let his reasons, whatever they may be, stand in the way of doing what is right.
You're going to meet lots of idiots, in the Church and out of the Church. Hopefully, the idiot-to-normal-person ratio in your area is low-- but I'll warn you that it may not be. Be prepared to be tolerant when others are not. Grow a nice, thick skin. Be quick to forgive, and slow to wrath.
Be Christ-like, in other words.
It sounds like you know what you should do.
EDIT: Errrm. . . posted without reading the whole thread. Take it as you like. Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Couldn't read the whole thread as I am at work...
But PLEASE KoM... don't lump all atheists in with the commies.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Why not? You're all going to hell. . .
I intend on having a big party there for KoM. Poor boy's going to be so shocked, he'll need some support. . .
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
Henri, having read this thread, I'm not sure what your issue is about.
It may be about this friend who might do the baptism. Now, I don't know much LDS, but I do know it's a Christian denomination. So. If you have a grudge against a neighbor, Christ says: go fix it. Don't even go to church until you've done what you can.
Now's your chance. You may not be able to make him make peace with you, but you can certainly make peace with him.
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