My mother told me on Saturday she believes Moses (the Biblical one) earns a Nobel Prize for peace.
I gently explained to her that in spite of seeming like the best guy in the Bible, he's possibly the worst one. He's ruthless, genocidal, flambuoyant and a freakin' crackpot at times.
Let's go over his biography:
Born to a people that was stereotyped because they didn't give those who became their "oppressors" any food (because of that other bastard, Joseph), But the emperor (Phareoh) was nice enough to let him in and raise him as a son in the palace; that is a welcoming gesture, and affirmative action, so what does Moses do? Runs off killing a policeman and then daring to seperate two people from a fight - when he's commented about it "who're you to speak, murderer?", he flees.
Instead of returning and apologising to his father about causing some havoc (as any young oligrch might do), he starts a violent revolt, destroying the nation which once embraced him as a son, leaving nothing remaining behind, really. After the battered army chases him asking why the hell did he do it, he tricks them into drowning.
Leading "his people" through a desert, he starves them, dehydrates them, and when he vanishes for a while and returns only to see them with a statue, he kills-off a tribe.
After wasting their time in the desert, and not evn listening to their complaints by setting a useless system of bureaucracy that only screws-up his people even more. He spends YEARS doing nothing, but kill them off.
He asks the Ammorite tribe whether he can pass through their land to get to the land he wants to really bash, conquer and loot, they say "sorry, but we can't really trust millions of people, many armed, travelling through our land - just not our policy", so he destroys them all and loots their lan, as well as their friends' (the Bashanites') land, conquering it by force, without any real reason. Nothing is mentioned about what he did to the Moabites, but he somehow ended up in their land...
He destroys the Amalekite tribe on the way, and doesn't treat people nicely, and asks thm to hold his hands for him.
His legacy is carried on by Joshua. I don't have the energy to tell you all the bad things HE did to the Cana`anites.
But Moses, I ask you, MOSES deserves a NOBEL PRIZE for PEACE?!
People forgot how to read the Bible, don't you think?
What about the geat hero Hiskiyah? When the Assyrians came by with their army to warn him off and tell him to stop the revolt that was going on - they mysteriously die, all friggin' 185,000 of them, from a plague!
But nobody seems to remember that at the time Hiskiyah was sick...
Nobel prizes my arse. The best guy in the Bible is probably Nebuchadnezzar.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
>>he starts a violent revolt, destroying the nation which once embraced him as a son, leaving nothing remaining behind, really. After the battered army chases him asking why the hell did he do it, he tricks them into drowning. <<
Welcome to the no-spin zone. . . Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
No-spin Zone?
*Baffled.*
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I don't know that you could call the exodus from Egypt a 'violent revolt.' The disasters were all "natural," (or supernatural, if you wish; in any case, Moses wasn't out there with a vial of anthrax, destroying all the sheep and cattle) and the Egyptians, according to the text, GAVE the Israelites their gold and precious things when they left.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
I suppose you figured that the anit-semites needed a little help. I'm sure they will appreciate your efforts here.
I, however, found the entire exercise to be offensive.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
You know, lots of people who have won the Nobel Prize for peace did things that were illegal and possibly immoral.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Tante, the word I was thinking was 'stupid', but 'offensive' also works.
Moses' story always stood out to me as a lesson in why we should fear being called to serve God.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I think JH is Jewish, Tante Shvester. I'm fairly certain he has said he lives in Israel, anyway.
Can you be Jewish and anti-semetic?
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
quote:Originally posted by Scott R: Can you be Jewish and anti-semetic?
is there such a thing as self-hatred?
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
There is such a thing as self hatred, but I didn't accuse Jon of anti-semitism; I accused him of lending fuel to the arguments of the anti-semites.
Jon was just trying to be clever. But I think that he went too far and crossed a line into offensiveness.
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
quote: People forgot how to read the Bible, don't you think?
It appears you certainly have.
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
I don't think Moses' actions would (hypothetically) qualify for a Peace Prize, but I don't think that means he was a bad guy. I think he was pretty great, actually.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I'm uncomfortable knowing this, but I know it anyway: most anti-semetical arguments deal with Jews/Jewish actions after the death of Christ.
Meaning, even skinheads may look to Moses as a rolemodel.
But that has nothing to do with anything, and I defer to you as a greater authority.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Is a dislike of the Book of Exodus really equivalent to anti-semitism? If so, why?
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
Tante - you're right. I crossed the line and wasn't thinking about the fueling of anti-Semitic "arguments". I apologise to all who might've and did suffer in any way from my post.
All I was trying to do is show how you can reflect the Biblical characters in so many different ways. I reckon, honestly, that Moses was a rather bold man, going over so quickly from one sidto the other. I think he was too bold and a little aggresive at times, but did it for what he believed was the most noble cause possible.
I should've stated more sarcasm regarding the whole issue, but I didn't. I don't mind deleting the thread if any of you want me to.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
quote:and the Egyptians, according to the text, GAVE the Israelites their gold and precious things when they left.
Just like Deagol "gave" Smeagol the One Ring for his birthday present. Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
Of course, this conversation is utterly dependent on the very unlikely proposition that what the Bible/Torah reports to be the true story of Moses (if such a person ever existed) is historically accurate...
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Or on the willingness of the participants to discuss the story the same way they would a work of literature, holding historical claims in abeyance.
Although I guess that wouldn't work if the question was whether or not to award a Nobel Prize. Never mind.
Posted by Nell Gwyn (Member # 8291) on :
quote:Originally posted by dkw: Or on the willingness of the participants to discuss the story the same way they would a work of literature, holding historical claims in abeyance.
That can be tricky. I had an English class in college that was focused on epics. We read Exodus, and my friend in the class wrote a paper discussing God as a character - and the professor took points off because of it.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
I got the impression that JH was just experimenting with seeing a well-known hero story from someone else's point of view. This does not stike me as a bad thing to do.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Jon is very quick witted and clever, and I love that about him. He needs to sometimes temper his cleverness with wisdom.
But, I'll cut him a break -- he's only been around for, what, 15 years? He still has a little time to acquire wisdom.
I understood the cleverness of what he was doing with Moses. But it hurt anyway.
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Nell, that's pretty outrageous. If you look at Exodus from a literature standpoint, you'd *have* to include God as a character. It's not like he's never mentioned.
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
Everyone forgets poor ole' Abraham. Now that fellow? He was a good fellow, that fellow.
And this whole bit about Moses reminds me:
(Paraphrasing) "I give you the Fifteen Commandments!" (drops one stone tablet) "Ten commandments, I bring you the Ten Commandments!"
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Ah, Mel...
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jonathan Howard: I think he was too bold and a little aggresive at times, but did it for what he believed was the most noble cause possible.
What is the relevance of this? So he believed his genocides were in a noble cause; that doesn't make them good things.
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
Ender committed a type of genocide, as well, you know? Except the more techinical term is xenocide. Ender felt guilty for the rest of his life for what he had done, do you not expect a similar reaction from Moses? Perhaps not openly, but I am sure even he had doubts as to the morality of the atrocities he was committing.
Posted by Nell Gwyn (Member # 8291) on :
jeniwren, that's what we thought. The professor seemed to feel that approaching God as a character rather than as a deity in something we were reading for a literature class was inappropriate and disrespectful. I believe she eventually got fired (but not because of that - it was part of "cutbacks").
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
It's worth pointing out that Ender is a fictional character who didn't know what he was doing. Moses may or may not be fictional, but he certainly knew exactly what he was doing, and I don't see any signs of remorse in his later actions.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
quote: He was a good fellow, that fellow.
He was also potent. Very potent... O_o!
Posted by Princess Leah (Member # 6026) on :
Not that the one has anything to do with the other.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
quote:Can you be Jewish and anti-semetic?
Yep. I had a great-uncle who was a Jewish Nazi. Once the rest of the family figured out he lost his mind and would probably use them to get a promotion, they came to American and de-German-fied our last name. Good times.
Its hard to dislike Moses when its so much more fun to watch "Prince of Egypt."
Posted by mistaben (Member # 8721) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jonathan Howard: I reckon, honestly, that Moses was a rather bold man, going over so quickly from one sidto the other.
So quickly? The KJV text suggests there were about FORTY years among the Midianites in there.
Acts 7:23 and Exodus 7:7.
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Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Nobody pointed out that Nobel Prizes are never awarded posthumously? Moses missed his chance, methinks.
Though someone said once that in a world where Henry Kissinger can win the Nobel Peace Prize, anything can happen.
Posted by firebird (Member # 1971) on :
quote --------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Can you be Jewish and anti-semetic? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep. I had a great-uncle who was a Jewish Nazi. Once the rest of the family figured out he lost his mind and would probably use them to get a promotion, they came to American and de-German-fied our last name. Good times. ----------------
And then that Hitler fellow, he was Jewish too. He had a Jewish Grandmother at least.
Posted by Rusta-burger (Member # 8753) on :
I don't think just having a Jewish grandmother in anyway qualifies you to be Jewish. That is, unless you believe the Jews are a race.
Edit: Added the word just.
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
I didn't read Acts yet, I'm still trying to figure out which John is Matthew referring to each time in his (Matthew's) book.
And Moses changed his mind, apparently, just after God spoke to him.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
John the Baptist was the one who baptised Jesus, was jailed, and later beheaded (unrelated events, mostly); John the Beloved (who wrote the gospel of St. John and other books of the New Testament) was one of Jesus' apostles.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Back in the days when everyone had the middle name "the".
-- Tante the Shvester
Posted by Jonathan Howard (Member # 6934) on :
Oh, so the one jailed was the BAPTIST?
That makes more sense. Why was he jailed?
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
He critisized Herod for his unlawful marriage to Herodius. Herodius then had him beheaded.
EDIT: In a nutshell. . . Posted by mistaben (Member # 8721) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jonathan Howard: And Moses changed his mind, apparently, just after God spoke to him.
True. He seems to have gone from being a shepherd in Midia to a deliverer in a short time. But all that means is by that time Moses had enough faith in (and experience with) God to trust and obey.
I hope I would quickly change my mind on something if God spoke to me about it, too!
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I believe she eventually got fired (but not because of that - it was part of "cutbacks").
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