They're lighting stuff on fire. And its mostly not our fault. 12 days of rioting. Sheesh. Is there a background i'm not familiar with or is it just disenfranchised French minorities setting stuff on fire? your thoughts......
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
Why do people, who are rioting, always light the stuff in their neighborhood on fire? Has anyone else noticed this? It makes almost no sense to me.
It happened in L.A. and Detroit and now, apparently, in Paris. Why don't they light the opposing groups property on fire? Or better yet, not light anything on fire at all.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Rioting isn't really rational, so you can stop looking for "sense" in it.
Apparently there have been quit a few cars set on fire around Lyon but I haven't been in any of the affected areas. I think I'll stick around the campus for now... Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
I would advise it.
(But don't lock yourself in your room if you see <edited for unintentionally racist sounding remark > with torches and pitchforks coming your way.)
[ November 08, 2005, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: SteveRogers ]
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
In the past year there have been many people, including children, killed in tenament fires. The only responce the govt gave was, "Ooops. You shouldn't live like that. We need you to work our low wage jobs, but there is no place for you to stay so stay in these death traps till we work something out. Oh, and you can't wear your religious head gear to schools either."
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
Yeah, well. Governments are stupid. They probably don't think it is their problem. In reality, it could be viewed as almost all their problem and their fault.
Posted by airmanfour (Member # 6111) on :
I believe that arson on a widespread scale is tantamount to a vote of no confidence directed at the French government. I wonder if these fires keep these ignorant govt officials up at night. 'cause they should.
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
No, probably not. I bet they are all falling asleep nice and warm as they cuddle with their money.
Posted by airmanfour (Member # 6111) on :
I hope they get really, really warm. and then catch on fire Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
But that would require an awful lot of friction......what do you think they're doing anyway?
Posted by airmanfour (Member # 6111) on :
If they're anything like our government officials they are all in a meeting right now trying to "put as good a face as possible on this." if racial tensions are as high as i think they probably are, the muslim communnity is going to experiance a political blowback thats gonna make the situation even worse. Crazies. All of em. And by "all" i mean everyone in France. They need to CALM DOWN.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
You've answered your own question. Why do they light stuff on fire?
How do you know that Detroit and LA were in flames during the riots there?
You saw it on TV right?
See the connection?
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
It's terrorism, not rioting. Whether or not you think the violence is justified, it's still violence to achieve political ends--terrorism. Screw them.
Here's an interesting overview, with running commentary on the riots.
I believe that while there may be legitimate grievances, this may be an excuse that religious dogmatists will use to cement control over the 'muslims' and to begin a long series of terrorist acts for lebensraum, unless the Europeans act swifty and decisively to make it clear that they won't stand for it.
Things should never have escalated this far. 12 days is ridiculous.
Posted by Choobak (Member # 7083) on :
The reality of the events is that this boys are young (12 to 18). They want to destroy all just for all destroy. and when something burn in fire, it's cool ! That what they think. There is not really a "muslim" problem. This boys are laughing about the calm call of muslims officials. Really, they just want to destroy and be powerfull by that.
Oh, and i lived all my youth in suburb, in a poor quarter. I know there mindness.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: You've answered your own question. Why do they light stuff on fire?
How do you know that Detroit and LA were in flames during the riots there?
You saw it on TV right?
See the connection?
Err.... Are you implying that these events were a fabrication?
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
With the firebombers wearing skimasks/etc, what evidence is there that the torchings aren't the work of the same ethnic Europeans who trash the host cities of WTO/IMF/WorldBank/etc meetings?
Then again... "You wear these clothes, with this color skin and you're automatically a target for police," said Ahmed, 18, pointing to his mates in Izod polo shirts, Nike sneakers and San Antonio Spurs T-shirts. ...not having their own NBA teams may be confusing the French as to when&where rioting should occur. I mean ya don't see Detroiters burning down their town except when the Pistons win the NBA championship.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
Hehe.. yeah, although I've never really understood why the rioting occurs when teams lose.
As an aside, I would imagine that the spurs are somewhat popular because one of their starters, Tony Parker, is from france.
Posted by Choobak (Member # 7083) on :
Tony Parker is a Star in France. So it's why the spurs become the favorite team here. And after all, it's the best
About the police targeting, i see the two faces of the problem. I Havec a friend who is cop in a difficult area, and i know many good guys with this look style. It's true that cop ask more the id card to this guys, but in the same time the majority of the bad guys are like them... It's really difficult after that to suspect all the guys with this style...
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Whatever legitimate reason for the sparking of the riots is now lost. This is just barbarism and an excuse to tear down the world in protest for their own failures and that wish for death that seems to be deep down in all humans. Riots make people animals and lovers of destruction. Shame it has to happen in one of the most beautiful cities on Earth.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
I kinda figured that'd be why people were wearing spurs shirts.
Incidentally, I went to high school with Tony Parker's two younger brothers. I don't really follow basketball, so I probably wouldn't have known anything about him otherwise.
Posted by Choobak (Member # 7083) on :
Telperion, Paris is not really touch by the riots. In reality, it's the suburb (banlieu in french). And we cannot say that this banlieux are perticularly beautiful...
For the rest you're right : it's just barbarism... After that we can search why all of that was born...
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
quote: You've answered your own question. Why do they light stuff on fire?
How do you know that Detroit and LA were in flames during the riots there?
You saw it on TV right?
See the connection?
I'm actually not old enough to have remembered seeing it on TV if I did. I just brought it up because we were discussing it the other day in my Honors American Government class.....
Posted by airmanfour (Member # 6111) on :
Lyrhawn, no one has answered anyone's question. Until a post pops up here from someone who has lit their neighborhood cafe on fire in the past couple of days, that question, and yes it remains a legitimate one, stands. "the simplest answer is not always the correct one, it could just be that you think simply."
Posted by airmanfour (Member # 6111) on :
The French govt is now going to deport any foreigners found rioting. Not a bad idea.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Ugh. The answer that I thought would have been obivous, is that THOSE KINDS OF THINGS ARE EASILY AND READILY TELEVISED.
It's a media war. Whoever is organizing these kids to run out and burn things wants cameras there to see it, they want the people of the world to see it, and judging from past riots, they WILL see it, just as we all have on CNN.
And what is with the French surrendering stereotype? At one point France ruled all of Europe, they fought to a standstill in WW I, and they fought the Hundred Years War. I am so friggin sick and tired of that stereotype. Probably the same way Americans are sick and tired of the myriad array of stereotypes that are flung at us. You'd think we of all people wouldn't want to be hipocrits.
And Detroit didn't riot when we won the Championship two years ago. Trust me, I live a quarter mile from downtown Royal Oak, and more than almost anywhere else, it's party central after major sporting victories in the Detroit area. They flooded the streets and cheered a lot, but no rioting.
Posted by airmanfour (Member # 6111) on :
I agree completely. At one point France had a lot not to be embarassed of, but times have changed and i find the stereotype amusing if only because i get to hear people whine about how it isn't true. And your conspiracy theory is obviously right on the money: if you didn't see it, it couldn't have happened.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
It's not a conspiracy theory, it's what riot organizers want. They are aiming for something, and they want publicity so they have more ammunition, publicity means lots of cameras watching the things they do. And nothing seems to get more cameras than burning cars and teens throwing molotov cocktails, so they stick with what works.
If they knew for a fact that the media would not cover it, I bet you not even half as many cars would have been burned. It's being organized by someone, or some group, and they aren't stupid.
Posted by airmanfour (Member # 6111) on :
that's the mentality my little brother worked with when he was six. i believe it's called going after "negative attention" and i doubt that these "riot organizers" believe this will help their cause as they hand out cheap booze, rags, and matchbooks. it'll get 'em deported though.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Really, has your brother ever heard the saying "there's no such thing as negative press?"
News coverage is news coverage. And if you think these riots AREN'T organized, then I don't think you understand the situation very well.
They already have what they want, whether you believe it or not. The French government isn't going to deport natural born French people, which I would bet make up a majority of these rioters. It isn't all being done by minority immigrants, though I'm betting a lot is. The people are angry about unemployment and what they see as an apathetic government. But now the government is paying attention, and the people are paying attention.
The rioters wanted the spotlight, and now they have it. The next step is for the French government to make.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: It's terrorism, not rioting. Whether or not you think the violence is justified, it's still violence to achieve political ends--terrorism. Screw them.
Of course, if all violence to achieve political ends is terrorism, there's no such thing as rioting.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Well, by that definition. The Iraq War was terrorism. The political end was to remove Saddam from power, violence was used to achieve it. Ergo, Iraq War = Terrorism.
Posted by Yank (Member # 2514) on :
I would add another caveat to terrorism- it is political violence that *intentionally* targets civilians. Any major violence, including war both just and unjust, will affect and often kill civilians, but a terrorist actively targets them. I would add also that terrorism, while it may be state-sponsored, is never the direct action of a nation-state. Thus, while the Japanese invasion of China during World War II was quite possibly one of the most despicable acts ever committed by human beings in its scale and brutality and was definitely targeted mostly against civilians, it was a war crime, not a terrorist act.
On the flip side, the American revolutionaries, or the WWII Resistance movement, were not terrorists despite lacking Nation-State status because they directed their violence toward military targets. The Boston Tea Party was directed toward a civilian target and had a definite political purpose, but I would term it an act of vandalism rather than terrorism as there was little in the way of violence toward the civilians themselves. If they had been throwing East India Company members into the harbor rather than just their tea, *that* would have been terrorism.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Here we go again...
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
Yeah, but with less fire this time. it could almost be called peaceful.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
Comparatively speaking.
Posted by Dragon (Member # 3670) on :
So... is anything actually being done about it? Or is the government just going to hope they get tired of it, or run out of things to burn?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
More like spray them with hoses and shoot tear gas at them until they shut up.
But then, the legislation they are protesting was only enacted in response to that LAST round of rioting.
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
Again a lot of exageration from the medias, I'm afraid...
Posted by Brian J. Hill (Member # 5346) on :
Anna is right about media exaggeration. There have been a lot of protests, but very few of them have been violent, and that's mostly due to other causes than the protest of the CPE (Contrat de Premier Embauche, or First Employment Contract.) There's a history of underlying tension between the youth in the Paris suburbs and the police.
Posted by dantesparadigm (Member # 8756) on :
French protesters fighting French police...
Who will surrender first?
[ March 29, 2006, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: dantesparadigm ]
Posted by LeoJ (Member # 9272) on :
Whoo hoo, i feel theres going to be one here this year or the next.
Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
quote: French protesters fighting French police...
Who wil surrender first?
I tried very hard to find it funny...but couldn't. Oh, wait! It's based on the assumption that French people are quitters! Because of WWII Vichy thing! Haha! ... no, still not funny. Must be my fault. Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by airmanfour: They're lighting stuff on fire. And its mostly not our fault. 12 days of rioting. Sheesh. Is there a background i'm not familiar with or is it just disenfranchised French minorities setting stuff on fire? your thoughts......
If they were more honest, they wouldn't refer to the "minorities" with that generic term. But they're afraid that if they identify who these minorities are, they'll simply add to the list of atrocities this particular minority group has engaged in.
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