I will not bother my audience with such trivial things as details, but I would really love to know, how can I become a lady? I want to be graceful and polite, delicate and everything else. I know that ladies are very feminine, but I don't know how to be all of these things that I have always wanted to be. I enjoy cooking, which I'm sure counts, but I want to know, how does a young woman like myself become a LADY?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*coyly peeks out from behind her fan*
Why?
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
A lady never leaves her escort It isn't fair, it isn't nice A lady doesn't wander all over the room And blow on some other guys dice
A lady never flirts with strangers She'd have a heart, she'd have soul A lady wouldn't make little snake eyes at me When I've bet my life on this roll
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
You could move to Britain and marry a Lord.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Or you could just develop grace and dignity. Things which, I might add, I also lack.
I've read that politeness isn't a matter of remembering all the little rules of social graces, but rather, in making sure your guests are made comfortable, regardless of what they actually do. Er, in case that isn't understandable, I mean like not drawing attention to the fact that someone used the wrong knife or fork or that sort of thing.
Eh. What do I know? I belong on the receiving end of this thread. *baffled*
Posted by Oliver Dale (Member # 8398) on :
You could share a plate of spaghetti with a mangy dog, or star in a film opposite Jerry Lewis.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: You could move to Britain and marry a Lord.
I could also buy a title from http://www.regaltitles.com for that matter....
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
Believe it or not, the best definition I've ever heard is from the movie Blast from the Past:
quote:[The] short and simple definition of a lady or a gentleman is someone who always tries to make sure the people around him or her are as comfortable as possible.
Also...
quote:[G]ood manners are just a way of showing other people we have respect for them.
Posted by Nell Gwyn (Member # 8291) on :
I like KoM's idea. Fits in neatly with my quest for a UK passport.
I was under the impression that a Lady should never stoop to do something as menial as cooking - that sort of thing should be left to the lower classes. Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
I know that good manners are a part of the whole thing, my plight is that I don't know how a lady is supposed to act or talk or walk. Do you guys know where I'm getting to?
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I'd be a terrible lady and am not interested in being one...
But I've got some advice, such as it is: 1. Sit and stand up straight when in company. 2. Eat with a knife and a fork (not just a fork). 3. Be good at making polite but very interesting conversation and be a good listener.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
Some more specific advice: always send thank-you notes. While dining, start with the outer-most utensils and work your way in, put your napkin in your lap, chew with your mouth closed, and keep your elbows off the table. Always leave a little food on your plate. Keep your legs crossed at the ankle.
Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
Watch that Anne Hathaway movie and take notes from Julie Andrews. Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Think before you talk, and when you talk, make sure what you say is thoughtful and kind.
Oh, but if you're in Germany, when you want more food, put your knife and fork on opposite sides of the plate. When you've had enough, put both knife and fork together on the right side of the plate. And keep both hands on the table.
In Canada, always remove your shoes at the door. In fact, just about everywhere except the US, that seems to be the rule.
Eh. I dunno.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
I play a violin and clarinet and I always tend to cross my legs at the ankle and remove my shoes at the door. But there is just something about my etiquette that does not seem very ladylike at all...
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
quote:Oh, but if you're in Germany, when you want more food, put your knife and fork on opposite sides of the plate. When you've had enough, put both knife and fork together on the right side of the plate.
This also applies in the US, but here you do not need to remove your shoes unless the host asks you to. That reminds me - always bring a gift when you dine at someone's house for the first time. Either a dessert, candy, wine, or flowers are appropriate, depending on the host. For example, don't bring wine when you visit a LDS household.
Altáriël, I'm having trouble understanding what specifically you're asking. I'm trying to think about the things I'm going to teach my daughter in order to raise her to be a lady, but I'm not sure that's what you're looking for.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Posture. Develop and maintain good posture.
Posted by Avatar300 (Member # 5108) on :
Why would you want to be a lady? Aren't they too busy being prim and proper to have any fun?
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: The rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain! The rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain!
Now, once again where does it rain? On the plain! On the plain! And where's that soggy plain? In Spain! In Spain!
The rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain! The rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain!
In Hartford, Hereford, and Hampshire...? Hurricanes hardly happen. How kind of you to let me come!
Now once again, where does it rain? On the plain! On the plain! And where's that blasted plain? In Spain! In Spain!
The rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain! The rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain!
Posted by Brian J. Hill (Member # 5346) on :
OK, so for the first time I realized that the rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain, rather than the plane. That song makes so much more sense now.
Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
I think what many people here are saying is that you just need to remember your manners. Buy an etiquette book, but preview it carefully before purchasing. The one I bought had hidden references to racism.
Posted by Nell Gwyn (Member # 8291) on :
Edit: in response to Brian
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I think it was Eudora Welty who said that "A lady is a woman who is never unintentionally vulgar." Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
I want to be very feminine. I just look at the ladies that appear in movies with a Victorian era thing going on and I just look at them and long to be so prim and proper like them.
Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
Why all of a sudden do you want to be a lady?
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
Its not an all of a sudden thing, I have always wanted to be one, I just don't know how to be one.
Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
Get a subscription to Real Simple and Martha Stewart Living. They will put you on the right track.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
>_<
Posted by Nell Gwyn (Member # 8291) on :
kq, that quote goes along with another I've heard: "A true gentleman is one who is never unintentionally rude." I think it was Oscar Wilde who said that.
Alt, you want to be ladylike in such a way that you'll still fit in with today's society, right? I mean, are you planning on skipping the more stringent Victorian customs like always needing a chaperone present since you're a young, unmarried maiden?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Why not?
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nell Gwyn: kq, that quote goes along with another I've heard: "A true gentleman is one who is never unintentionally rude." I think it was Oscar Wilde who said that.
Alt, you want to be ladylike in such a way that you'll still fit in with today's society, right? I mean, are you planning on skipping the more stringent Victorian customs like always needing a chaperone present since you're a young, unmarried maiden?
Oh, yes. I want to skip that sort of rubbish that would make it hard for me to get by today.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Posted by Nell Gwyn (Member # 8291) on :
quote: Why not?
There's nothing really wrong with it, but it might be a bit impractical, especially since Alt's living on her own now. (right?) I was just wondering to what extent she wants to become a lady, and what her definition of it is.
Sidenote: I googled "how to be ladylike" and the first thing that came up was a magazine for crossdressers and transvestites! Somehow, I don't think that will be helpful in this case.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nell Gwyn:
quote: Why not?
There's nothing really wrong with it, but it might be a bit impractical, especially since Alt's living on her own now. (right?) I was just wondering to what extent she wants to become a lady, and what her definition of it is.
Sidenote: I googled "how to be ladylike" and the first thing that came up was a magazine for crossdressers and transvestites! Somehow, I don't think that will be helpful in this case.
Hee! I got a 980 on Carrie's game. I guess reading trashy romances is good for something! And I must say, I love the way the people move and "talk" in it! It's like a dignified Monty Python animation.
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
Read Miss Manners regularly.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Screw the arbitrary and ever-changing rules on what is and isn't 'graceful'. Strive to make the world a better place, make an honest effort to make the lives of those you love and care for better, stick up for those who cannot stick up for themselves, and exhibit good personal hygiene, and you're a lady.
Very similar rules for how to be a man, too.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
I would think that being a 'lady' is not necessarily a good thing. If I were you, I'd try to be a good person instead.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
quote:Very similar rules for how to be a man, too.
then how will we know ladies from men? Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Plumbing and furnishings, my dear.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
Posted by FIJC (Member # 5505) on :
Finishing school or go ask a consultant for pageants.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:I would think that being a 'lady' is not necessarily a good thing. If I were you, I'd try to be a good person instead.
Is there a reason you can't be both?
By the Alt, my advice is to stop all guy-like behavior. This includes spitting, cursing, video games, high fiving, drinking beer, listening to rock/rap music, and yelling, among other things. As someone mentioned, being a lady isn't all that much fun, especially while you're in college.
On the plus side, drinking wine is still alright, as is being scared of vermin and feeling faint. Dancing is still allowed, just not the type of dancing you see on MTV or at a high school dance. Being well spoken and worldly is good, and as a Hatracker you're well ahead of the curve in that. Sitting in an uncomfortable position (like the back of a Volkswagen) is a must.
And your laugh should be delicate; think 'teehee', not 'HaHaHa'.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
An excellent book that gives VERY pragmatic advice regarding civility, courtesy, manners for all sorts of situations:
The Family Book of Manners by Hermine Hartley.
It is also a good read with examples, cute pictures, and easy to digest information.
Alternatively, go watch Anne of Green Gables -
Posted by Theaca (Member # 8325) on :
Oh! Read some Louisa May Alcott. Like, An Old Fashioned Girl. Eight Cousins and the sequel to Eight Cousins. Etc.
According to her, eating peanuts is scandalously unladylike, btw. I have never understood why.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
I think she may have been referring to roasted peanuts that you could buy and eat on the streets ? . . . *gasp* Eating in public was scandalous. No real lady would be caught doing so . . . *tsk tsk*
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Not that anyone ever intimated otherwise, but I'd make a terrible lady.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I think being a lady involves the following:
1. Be slow to anger. 2. Mrs. M's advice was perfect - a lady is concerned with those around her. 3. Recognize and compliment in other people what they secretly like about themselves. 4. Don't tolerate disrespect. This is harder because you still have to be slow to anger and considerate of people. I think this mostly means to know your own great worth and not go along with people who try to demean it. You are of great worth, and the people around you are of great worth, and I think that a lady always acts in accordance of both of those truths.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I, also, would make an awful lady, and I have never understood why anyone would want to be one. But if that's what you want, Alt, good luck.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
I want to be ladylike too, and I think a big part of it is how you dress. I think people carry themselves differently when they're dressed up as opposed to when wearing an old pair of sweats. I think dressing in attractive, feminine clothes would help a woman to act more ladylike. (There's also the practical aspect that if you're in a skirt, you're a lot more likely to sit "properly" for the sake of modesty.)
Currently, I wear jeans almost every day. I'd much rather wear slacks and skirts--but I don't have the money yet for a significant wardrobe change. When I can afford it, I'll be wearing more feminine styles--preferably with a tailored office look. I know that will affect my behavior.
Posted by fiazko (Member # 5812) on :
451, but I still managed to rate "picture of politeness." Huh.
I am not a lady. I have no interest in being one. I can wear dresses once in a while, and I try to be polite and maintain some level of etiquette, but being ladylike is just not me. I treasure my independence, and I rage at the thought of being submissive or excessively deferent. Perhaps I should work on that.
(Btw, Alt, I am not trying to spit on your desire to become more ladylike. I just wanted to express that it does not work for me.)
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
Isn't the biggest part of being a lady being overly concerned with largely trivial social rules - such as how precisely is the right way to dress, speak, eat, etc.? I think it is, more or less, equivlanet to girls trying to make themselves into their own dolls. Posted by fiazko (Member # 5812) on :
No wonder we get along so well, ElJay. Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
quote: An excellent book that gives VERY pragmatic advice regarding civility, courtesy, manners for all sorts of situations:
The Family Book of Manners by Hermine Hartley.
OK, so now for a truly important question: How do we pronounce the author's first name? Her -MINE? Her- MEEN? Her - my - KNEE?
I mean, thanks to Ms. Rowling and Miss Granger, we all know how to pronounce Hermione! ;-)
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:I treasure my independence, and I rage at the thought of being submissive or excessively deferent.
I don't think these are mutually exclusive. Why does being a lady mean being submissive or deferent?
I suppose the difference is how you define a lady. If you think of a lady as socially-adept decoration that never causes waves, then the above would apply. I doubt that's what Alt is referring to, though. Like this:
quote:Isn't the biggest part of being a lady being overly concerned with largely trivial social rules - such as how precisely is the right way to dress, speak, eat, etc.? I think it is, more or less, equivlanet to girls trying to make themselves into their own dolls.
Polite, unassailable decoration. I don't think that's what a lady is.
I always thought of a lady as someone who could give 'em hell so intelligently and gracefully that discriminating people think better of her for it. A mixture of high standards, intelligence, insight, and compassion.
Like Florence Nightingale - she was a lady. Not just because of the compassion and nursing part, but because when she saw a system that needed to be changed, she wouldn't shut up or be brushed off until it was. In addition to the compassion and nursing, she was a great tech writer, mathemetician, and statician. She wasn't just decoration, but she was always a lady.
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
Alt, on a more serious note [than my previous post]: I noticed a post of yours buried in another thread about going through a hurtful time. Could this have something to do with "how can I be more of a lady?" If so -- Hon, don't beat yourself up over a relationship not working out. It doesn't mean you are lacking and have to change who you are. It just means that you haven't found the person yet who will truly appreciate you.
*disclaimer* -- I totally don't know you and could be completely misinterpreting all this--for all I know you are a happily married mother of four--so my apologies in advance for being presumptuous!
(edited to add bracketed comment)
Posted by FIJC (Member # 5505) on :
quote:"I am not a lady. I have no interest in being one. I can wear dresses once in a while, and I try to be polite and maintain some level of etiquette, but being ladylike is just not me. I treasure my independence, and I rage at the thought of being submissive or excessively deferent. Perhaps I should work on that."
Since when does wearing dresses, heels, and putting on make-up amount to be submissive and not independent? I do all above because I want to, not because someone tells me to. I love looks from the 1940's and 1950's, and I find that dressing like this is another way to express myself. And I definitely wouldn't consider myself submissive or a push-over, especially not with what I do for a living.
Posted by fiazko (Member # 5812) on :
I'm fairly certain that ladies don't give anyone hell, but then, as I said, I am not one, so I wouldn't know.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:In fact, Florence Nightingale accomplished so much during her full life that it is intriguing to wonder how she might be remembered had the public not become so fixated on the romantic image of her night-time rounds by candlelight at Scutari. This small museum highlights all of her many accomplishments: introducing sanitary science to nursing and the British Army; raising the image of the British soldier from a brawling lowlife to a heroic working man; transforming nursing from an occupation which previously had been considered fit only for prostitutes to a respectable profession; establishing a nursing school at St. Thomas's Hospital; laying out the principles of nursing in print in 1860; and revolutionizing the public health system of India without leaving England.
Ironically, during much of her long and accomplished life (she died in 1910, at the age of 90) the general public assumed she was already dead. Nightingale actually encouraged this misinformation. She returned from the Crimea under an assumed name and walked the last few miles to her parents' home from the train station. Uninterested in her celebrity status, she wanted only to continue her work in peace and quiet. She refused photographs and interviews, and avoided anything not directly related to her work for a Royal Commission investigating health in the British Army. Although she was undoubtedly the driving force behind the work, she almost never appeared in public.
Maybe we are defining what a lady is differently. Being a lady does not equal being a pansy.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:especially not with what I do for a living
Are you a dominatrix, by any chance? Cause that would be awesome.
Posted by fiazko (Member # 5812) on :
Thank you, FIJC, for twisting my words around. At no point did I imply that being feminine (wearing dresses, etc.) equaled being submissive. Those things are part of being a lady, but by "ladylike," I was referring more to the 19th century version. I suppose I should have been more specific. What I'm really talking about is the idea that standing up for yourself might be "inappropriate." Maybe that doesn't have anything to do with being a lady. I just don't like being told what to do or wear or say.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I think we must be defining it differently. I think being a lady is more about how you treat other people and the world around you.
Posted by fiazko (Member # 5812) on :
I give up.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I'm sorry if I upset you. I'm honestly confused how being a lady is equated to decorative submission.
Posted by FIJC (Member # 5505) on :
quote:"Thank you, FIJC, for twisting my words around. At no point did I imply that being feminine (wearing dresses, etc.) equaled being submissive. Those things are part of being a lady, but by "ladylike," I was referring more to the 19th century version. I suppose I should have been more specific. What I'm really talking about is the idea that standing up for yourself might be "inappropriate." Maybe that doesn't have anything to do with being a lady. I just don't like being told what to do or wear or say."
So, how was I supposed to know that by using the term "ladylike" you specifically meant a 19th century archetype? I am not a mind-reader. If that's what you meant, please articulate that sentiment better.
Posted by fiazko (Member # 5812) on :
I'm not upset at you, kat. I'm just frustrated at my own inability to be coherent.
I guess I just see being a lady as being confined to a set of rules--behave this way, speak this way. Like I said, I do not like to be told what to do, to say, or to wear. I hesitate to identify as a feminist, but I guess I must be one.
Posted by fiazko (Member # 5812) on :
My apologies, FIJC. I'm bowing out of this discussion now.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I consider myself a feminist. I regret that the world is such that believing in my own equality and freedom to choose my life makes me one instead of that being the standard attitude, but if it does, I'll accept the term.
I don't like the social restrictions, but it isn't restricted just to women. Society in general makes these rules, and they are just as stringent men sometimes. For much of the business world, guys wear the same clothes, talk about sports, play golf or tennis, care about cars, and have their worth measured (often) by how financially successful they are. My dad said once that men (basically) have two choices: they can go to work or go to jail. None of those things make a gentleman, though.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:For much of the business world, guys where the same clothes, talk about sports, play golf or tennis, care about cars, and have their worth measured (often) by how financially successful they are.
Which I'm big on not going along with. I am trying to quash expectations, preconceptions, and the whole good old boy network one person at a time.
Posted by Jaiden (Member # 2099) on :
I went to finishing school for a stint. I'm not a lady though- I know I break certain rules all the time. --
Things I associate with a modern lady:
To be polite at all times. To be nice and caring but not allowing people to put you down, etc. To present yourself in the right way- eating cleanly, writing thank you cards properly, etc. To -know- how to dress appropriately and present a polished appearance. This does not mean you can't wear blue jeans, etc. but that you wear them when it's appropriate. To be a well rounded person. Know about politics, know about history, know about "girly" things (clothing, makeup...), etc. Good posture. Refraining from certain activities- lying, cheating, smoking, drinking large quantities of alcohol, being overly flirtatious, wearing next to nothing. You keep the comfort of others always in mind (and strive to make them as comfortable as possible)
--
I guess more specifically...
Towards dressing I was taught to wear only one thing "revealing" at a time. So if you’re wearing a short-ish skirt, don’t wear a skimpy top. She also told me always dress wearing flattering clothes and colors. Don’t pay too much attention to what was in style, etc. If you look good wearing it, go for it- try to combine one thing from the season with your outfit though. Don’t wear worn clothing- fix the button fallen off, etc. but if there are pulls, etc. don’t wear it out.
Politeness wise, some of the older “rules” no longer apply- don’t get too uptight about it. Introduce your guests to each other in the right order, but if someone doesn’t introduce you in the right order, don’t worry. Also greet anybody you’re introduced to in the order given. You may know you should greet Mr. Brown first, but if you’re first introduced to his children, nowadays it would be considered rude to address him first, ignoring the children.
There are all kinds of things... but I’m not sure you’re looking for a modern lady or a prim and proper lady from the past.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
4. Drink tea. When someone visits, give them the best seat, offer them a drink and ask about their family. Keep a room or the room neat and tidy and welcoming to visitors. 5. Watch Pride and Prejudice the mini-series. 6. Take small bites and sips. 7. Do not use slang. Swear only when absolutely necessary, such as when your keys have gone missing.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
I can't imagine that being a lady is a matter of following a certain series of rules. I do imagine that all of the behavior that later becomes these rules flow from a core character, and that core is best presented by stories of ladies behaving in their most ladylike, like katharina did with Florence Nightingale, not by enumerating a series of axioms.
Posted by Theaca (Member # 8325) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jaiden: don’t get too uptight about it. Introduce your guests to each other in the right order, but if someone doesn’t introduce you in the right order, don’t worry. Also greet anybody you’re introduced to in the order given. You may know you should greet Mr. Brown first, but if you’re first introduced to his children, nowadays it would be considered rude to address him first, ignoring the children.
Ok, I don't know ANYTHING about rules like that. I can't even understand what it means. O_O
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
damn you snowden! I've had Luck Be A Lady stuck in my head since yesterday and I don't even know most of the lyrics.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Everyone that I've ever known who made it clear that they were to be treated as a lady was a huge pain in the ass to be around in a very annoying, anal-retentive, self-absorbed kind of way that was very burdensome. Give me someone who is friendly and polite and can walk barefoot through the mud over someone who is formal and stuck-up any day.
Of course, maybe some of the nice, friendly girls I know think of themselves as 'ladies' but don't demand that the world around them treat them as a 'lady' and kiss their ass. Kind of hard to say, I guess. Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:not by enumerating a series of axioms.
Well, I'm not a lady, so I wouldn't know that.
8. Treat yourself and others with respect. 9. Dress according to the situation but overall in a nice fashion.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
10. Ladies may walk barefoot through the mud but only if it's what a) the company is doing b) in pursuit of some good work.
Basically, they can't frolic.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Why not?
They don't frolic during funerals, certainly, but they frolic when frolicking is appropriate. Not during work, church, or when someone wants to have a serious talk, but any other time.
It's possible to be considerate of other people's feelings and comfortableness without killing all the fun inside.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
*laughs at what Teshi said*
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:They don't frolic during funerals, certainly, but they frolic when frolicking is appropriate
I mean in the mud, barefoot.
They may frolic in other ways, as you said, as long as it is appropriate. However, frolicking in mud aside from the two conditions given above, is unladylike.
quote:No one else but the rose bush knows
How nice MUD feels between the toes!
- A childhood book.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:They may frolic in other ways, as you said, as long as it is appropriate. However, frolicking in mud aside from the two conditions given above, is unladylike.
Why?
What principle of being a lady does it violate? Frolicking in mud, barefoot, and then walking into someone's house without cleaning off your feet would definitely be unladylike, and getting mud all over your clothes and then hugging people without changing them would be unladylike, but what principle does frolicking in mud, by itself, violate?
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I think you and and Teshi are operating from significantly different definitions of the term "lady."
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Well, it may always depend on the type of frolicking you mean, as well as the type of lady. I mean, if we're talking lady as in being considerate of others, not being rude of offensive, then I am a lady myself.
However, the lady that Alt seemed to be interested in was one that observed rules of grace and manners as well as those of social conventions. Although wallowing in the mud could be considered graceful I don't think it's the type of lady Alt means, although she may correct me on this.
And... I'm not all that serious anyway . If Alt wants to become a lady she must choose her own parametres of what being a lady means to her, just as you have chosen yours, katharina. In this day and age, there are no outside expectations. A lady is what she makes of herself. She may be, as saxon observes, prissy and a pain in the neck. She may be caring like Florence Nightingale. She may be graceful. She may not like mud or insects or violent computer games; she may partake in them when it is appropriate; she may love them.
There are no rules for a lady, at least not here in North America. There are some that are certainly largely followed as universals to ladylike behavior (such as manners), but there are no rules.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote: A lady is what she makes of herself... There are no rules for a lady, at least not here in North America. There are some that are certainly largely followed as universals to ladylike behavior (such as manners), but there are no rules.
Hmm...I disagree. If everyone defines lady for themselves, then the word ceases to have any meaning at all. That reminds of Alice's conversation with humpty dumpty, where language ceases to be a tool of communication and becomes instead a way to reinforce one's own ideas without confronting those of others.
I know you're not serious. I'm not stringently invested in it, either. I have thought about this before, though, in part because my dad and older brother consider me tremendously unladylike and I have had to work out why I disagree with them so vehemently. That they think me disagreeing vehemently makes me unladylike is just the beginning.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I think the manner in which you express your disagreement is more telling than the fact that you disagree. As you said, it's possible to be a lady without being obsequious.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I think that the word lady is almost meaningless. It implies good manners but many ladies have terrible manners. It used to imply "good breeding"- what is that now? It used to imply femininity but what is "feminine" about the things women do nowadays?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I suppose the easiest to settle the debate in this context would be to ask AltofD what she meant by being a lady. The definition may not be fixed for all time, but it would bring some focus to the advice.
What it means to be feminine is not the same now as what it meant before. *thinks* I think of lady and gentleman as almost interchangable. The characteristics that make up an admirable lady are the same as the characteristics that make up an admirable gentleman. In either case, it requires magnanimity, graciousness, perception, intelligence, engagement with the world, and a degree of selflessness.
Posted by Ophelia (Member # 653) on :
I don't know about being a lady, but I have an answer to this:
quote: OK, so now for a truly important question: How do we pronounce the author's first name? Her -MINE? Her- MEEN? Her - my - KNEE?
Hermine is a German name, and in Germany it is pronounced hair-MEE-nuh.
It's the name of a character in Der Steppenwolf. Also, I think that in the German versions of the Harry Potter books, they changed Hermione to Hermine.
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
hair-MEE-nuh -- that's lovely. I doubt the name is given such a pretty treatment in English! ;-)
My mom wanted to name me Solveig, which is pronounced SOOL-vay in Norwegian, but realized that it was not a practical name to give a child in the U.S. . .
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
I humbly ask that you may all forgive the confusion I have caused by not defining what I understand to be a lady. To me, a lady is a woman who can act and talk gracefully. Her posture must be perfect at all times and her walk must be poised and elegant. I try to laugh as feminenily as possible, but there are times when I forget such things. I know that a lady must always be respectful and white glove clean. Her speech, and writing must be inpeccable and she must dress as feminenily as she could possibly can. I want people to admire my grace. I want to exude an aura that will make people respect me right away. Does everyone know where I am getting to?
Posted by Theaca (Member # 8325) on :
quote:Originally posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion: Does everyone know where I am getting to?
Fantasy? Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
I think you should pay close attention to Bree on Desperate Housewives. That's who your description reminded me of.
I wonder if there are finishing schools still around.
But really, I think you can achieve all that, if you work at it. You could tackle one aspect at a time--it takes 28 days to set a habit, so maybe you could work on one aspect a month.
It does seem to be a bit drastic, though. Keeping good posture all the time makes me tired. Wish I had learned it as a kid.
Posted by FIJC (Member # 5505) on :
quote:"Her posture must be perfect at all times and her walk must be poised and elegant. I try to laugh as feminenily as possible, but there are times when I forget such things. I know that a lady must always be respectful and white glove clean. Her speech, and writing must be inpeccable and she must dress as feminenily as she could possibly can. I want people to admire my grace."
If you want to improve your posture and general movement, I highly recommend taking English/Hunt Seat riding lessons. It's a lot harder than it looks and you have to have a keen sense of balance with strength; this involves good posture.
I know that I have been able to get stronger and improve my sense of balance because of riding, plus, I love horses. I ride a pink (strawberry roan) appleoosa, who actually likes being groomed...you can't get a prissier looking horse than her, but she also loves jumping. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
To improve your posture, lift weights and do exercises that strengthen your back. Since you're female, you don't have the testosterone you'd need to bulk up, but it will tighten the muscles and naturally give you good posture without having to think about it all the time.
Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
quote:Originally posted by Theaca:
quote:Originally posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion: Does everyone know where I am getting to?
Fantasy?
Please, I know that being this type of lady is possible!
Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
I don't think that being respected is strongly correlated with your take on being ladylike, AoD.
However, the sort of "lady" that everyone but kat appears to be talking about is definitely not the sort of woman I'm attracted to (or have dated). (Added: So you should perhaps take my opinion with a grain of salt.)
Posted by Samarkand (Member # 8379) on :
Hmm . . . what if we made a list of women who are ladies? And those who are not?
Ladies: Martha Stewart (case in point - she writes sincere, well-worded thank you notes to the people she fires on The Apprentice; Reese Witherspoon; Jodie Foster; Laura Bush (as much as I dislike her, I have no doubt that she is an utterly gracious and polite hostess) etc.
Not Ladies: Britney Spears (She walked into a gas station bathroom barefoot while she had access to shoes, she made a documentary about her love life for public viewing . . . and on and on . . .); Jenny McCarthy; all those girls on Laguna Beach (money does not a lady make) etc.
A lady is first and foremost concerned with something beyond herself. She dresses well because she enjoys it, yes, but also because it is a kind thing to do for those who see you, and because inapprorpriate dress makes others uncomfortable. She brings a hostess gift when she visits someone else's house because it gives a little something back. She writes thank you notes because she knows how wonderful it feels to know someone loved a present. She keeps her house clean and comfortable because it keeps her sane but more importantly because it makes any potential guests feel at home. When someone visits, she offers to take their coat and get them a drink or a snack. She treats people she meets in passing, especially people in the service industry with genuine friendliness.
I think some people might read all of this as insignigicant or somehow restrictive, but I think we're all looking for something of importance beyond ourselves. Behaving like a lady lets everyone around you know you care about them. Anyone who has ever worked as a waitress or behind a cash register knows how much a thank you and a smile means.
Alt, if you want specific suggestions on dress or manners or whatnot, shoot me an e-mail. I think taking dance (ballet for sure, but you could take anything from hip-hop to ballroom and see improvement) might be helpful for the graceful stuff, and it's definitely a workout. Oooh, and watch What Not to Wear.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Hmmph . . . my clean and comfortable home is apparently "too" clean - and therefore people feel uncomfortable in it. (I hear this from the people I work with - for some reason, they think my tidy house makes them look bad, and they never believe me when I say that my house also slides from time to time).
I am one of three people I know (in 36 years of life and living in lots of places in the USA) that writes thank you notes, and insists that my son do so, also.
I don't wear risque clothing, or worn and torn clothing. Nor do I wear heavy makeup, excessive jewelry, etc.
I take the time - I go out of my way - to help when and where I can.
And yet, I don't think I've ever been considered to be a lady.
Why?
I speak my mind firmly and clearly (and get labeled negative things for doing so).
I stand up to people when the stakes are important. Firmly and fearlessly (at least on the outside).
I strongly advocate for those that need advocacy, not just my family, and not just those I have a personal relationship with.
For whatever reason - these personal traits seem to land me in a category of being not very likeable, nor very comfortable (apparently) for folks to want to be around.
I dunno - no matter what I do, it's generally wrong. Or at least that's the feedback I'm receiving.
*shrugs*
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
FJIC, I agree riding lessons improved my posture, and my horse was pretty darn prissy too (though she was white not pink, but she insisted on always having her main in hunt braids, she'd been shown UPC for many years before I took lessons on her)
Alt, why on earth do you always want to be white glove clean, that's absolutely no fun.
My ladylike tendancies are to knit, sew, cook, enjoy reading, wear pearls, and write thank you notes, I usually do at least, and i absolutely loved the one I recieved from Mrs. M.
Posted by Coccinelle (Member # 5832) on :
This is katharina, on Coccinelle's computer.
I have a How To Be A Lady story.
Catherine teaches the school-age parents, mostly mothers, and her principal is not thrilled with the program. At the beginning of the year, the principal moved her to a classroom about half the size, and took away the couch. The room where people learned about how to be a parent and make a family was turned from a nurturing living room to a cramped matrix of desks. Last week, having grown tired of the situation, Catherine moved the extra teacher's desk into the hallway, made room for the couch, and marched down to the principal's office to cooly ask for access to the flat-bed truck to get the couch back. They whined, but they did it. When the principal said something snide about how spoiled she was (classroom half the size!), she smiled and said it felt very nice for today.
I think that's perfect. Persistent, idealistic, and still polite.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:Martha Stewart (case in point - she writes sincere, well-worded thank you notes to the people she fires on The Apprentice); Reese Witherspoon; Jodie Foster; Laura Bush
Jodie is the only woman on that list that I'd be interested in. There is something about Laura Bush that frustrates me immensely. She has a fine able mind, it's been blunted from years of silence, but still able. There is something stunted in her. It's like those studies that say that women learn to be quiet in school when all of the rowdy boys get all of the teachers attention. Well, she is one of those little girls all grown up. Martha Stewart is just stone cold New England cool for me. I respect her, I just can't imagine how she is anyone's idol. Reese Witherspoon is a lady? She is neither here nor there in my esteem.
Is anyone else disturbed that so many characterizations of a lady concern being well-dressed and demure.
[ November 10, 2005, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Martha Stewart? Being jailed doesn't get you removed from consideration?
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
Depends whether you keep your prison gear white glove clean!
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
You know, I was thinking that martial arts would make you the best lady, Alt. Poise. Self-confidence. Balance. These are all the best qualities that I associate with being a lady and that the good martial arts places can give to you.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I would definitely put Martha Stewart on the lady list.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I'm not convinced Martha Stewart is human, much less a lady.
Posted by FIJC (Member # 5505) on :
quote:"FJIC, I agree riding lessons improved my posture, and my horse was pretty darn prissy too (though she was white not pink, but she insisted on always having her main in hunt braids, she'd been shown UPC for many years before I took lessons on her)
Alt, why on earth do you always want to be white glove clean, that's absolutely no fun.
My ladylike tendancies are to knit, sew, cook, enjoy reading, wear pearls, and write thank you notes, I usually do at least, and i absolutely loved the one I recieved from Mrs. M."
I love horses and never want to be without them in my life again. English riding is a lot harder than it looks, but it has really improved my posture and strength. Simple things such as posting and then when you get to jumping demand a lot of mental concentration and strength. Princess has been a perfect horse for me--she has that good appleoosa personality (very calm and friendly) and is the perfect height (15 hands). I have ridden my instructor's Hanoverian a few times, but I hate dismounting from it (it's over 17 hands). The first time I dismounted from her horse I fell splat on my butt. I agree about not wanting to be white glove all the time. I get so dirty after a day on the farm.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I haven't ridden much in the last couple years, school got in the way freshman year of high school, but I still agree. I rode Countess the prissy Welsh two years, then a few quarter horses, and a really nice Appy, that had all been low level englsh but with lots of "ok let's switch to western and have Jake show us some fun reining" Jake was the 1982 QH Congress Reining Champion, and the world's best begginner horse. Then I switched barns when my instructor graduated college and moved away, and my new barn was more focused on Dressage, which was fun, sitting the trot on a huge Belgian Warmblood is harder than posting it. At that barn I also rode an old arab gelding who knew I wasn't as smart as him, so would change his mind on me.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I think ElJay qualifies as a lady under Kat's parameters. Kat's definition of lady is the only one I actually like.
Ladies have been percieved to be ornamental window dressing in medieval times and recast that way again in Victorian times.
However to be that kind of "lady" you have to be financially secure. And it takes years to get good at it, to devote yourself to the art of posture, sewing a fine seam, napkin folding, the unspoken messages in flower arrangements etc. you have to have vast amounds of time available. And then during the time you have to be willing to devote yourself to it completely, and immerse your entire life in the concept. It's actually work to rise to the level that is worthy of that definition of social "lady".
Martha Stewart is good at a lot of that stuff, because other people didn't want really to do it themselves and paid her to cater for them! By the social definition she's a lady.
However, I think the Progressives, especially redefined the concept. Florence herself was partially responsible. They exhibited compassion and friendship with those outside their wealthy social class.
The modern definition, I like is Kat's. It turns being a lady into being a laudable worthy goal, instead of being strictly ornamental (even if being strictly ornamental is a heck of a lot of work) However the two definitions exist side by side in society today.
Was Katharine Hepburn a lady? If you can answer that, then you've set your definition lady for yourself.
AJ
Posted by FIJC (Member # 5505) on :
quote:"I haven't ridden much in the last couple years, school got in the way freshman year of high school, but I still agree. I rode Countess the prissy Welsh two years, then a few quarter horses, and a really nice Appy, that had all been low level englsh but with lots of "ok let's switch to western and have Jake show us some fun reining" Jake was the 1982 QH Congress Reining Champion, and the world's best begginner horse. Then I switched barns when my instructor graduated college and moved away, and my new barn was more focused on Dressage, which was fun, sitting the trot on a huge Belgian Warmblood is harder than posting it. At that barn I also rode an old arab gelding who knew I wasn't as smart as him, so would change his mind on me."
Glad to meet another rider on Ornery. My current instructor is great...she is a retired civil servant and works with me a for a good 4 hours a week. She's tough, but laid back enough to where I can just stop by whenever and help her out on the farm. As much as I like looking at Arabs and Warmblood horses, I love the personalities/temperment of Quarter horses and Apps. Haven't gotten into Dressage yet--that's more advanced than where I'm at...or at least my instructor just wants me to stick with jumpers for now. Lol, my fund for grad. school has turned into my horse hobby fund. Can't say that I regret it though...it's kept me relatively sane this year. Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Hmm... White gloves?
A house that is...*squints* cleee-an?
*Wades through drift of legos for a dictionary*
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
My instructor thought it was better to work on dressage, then jumping, and that just never happend. I like most arabs in personality, but Naavar behaved about like Mr Burns on the Simpsons. Even though it's been 4 years since I've ridden regularly, I still go watch as many horse shows as I can, which is pretty often because I'm not that far from Louisville and Columbus OH, where lots of breeds have nationals.
Posted by Nell Gwyn (Member # 8291) on :
Ditto with the riding lessons improving one's posture, along with being much fun.
The downside is that they're freaking expensive, so I don't know that Alt could implement that one as easily. Dance classes would be really good too, as others have mentioned. Alt, you're in college now, right? They might have dance something available through your school - if not actual classes, then maybe an extracurricular club or something. I had the greatest posture improvement in jazz, but ballet would probably have been the top improver if I weren't so non-flexible.
(I'm also a used-to-ride rider, had to stop my freshman year of high school for much the same reasons as Breyerchic. I was an English-only rider - I've only ridden western a few times. Taking lessons again is a longstanding goal of mine, but little things like no money keep getting in the way. )
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Interesting thread.
I agree very much with what Kat and Mrs. M have said. I think being a lady has a lot to do with consideration for other people. With respecting others and with having respect for yourself.
My grandmother was a southern belle who attended finishing school. She was always after me to do things like send out thank you notes no more than a week after receiving a gift, she taught me the differences between a bridal tea and a bridal shower and what to wear to each one. She taught me how to sit, how to cross my legs (demurely at the ankles) and to address people as "Sir" and "Ma'am"
But none of those things make me a lady and didn't make her one. What made her a lady was the way she would cook dinner and take it to an ailing friend who had just returned from the hospital. It was the way she was always volunteering her time at church and in her community. The teachings I got from her that were most valuable was to love my neighbor and that family always stands by each other. I learned how to care for people less fortunate than me and how to never think I was better than anyone else because of my skin color, or my income, or my clothes, or my "breeding" such as it was. While at the same time she taught me to respect the past I came from and to understand my heritage. I believe she was a true southern lady, who personified southern charm and grace and hospitality.
And now that I'm reminded of her, I realize that I have not yet mailed thank you notes for people who sent me flowers in the hospital. :0
I better get busy. Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:Was Katharine Hepburn a lady? If you can answer that, then you've set your definition lady for yourself.
The thing is, if I had to choose beween Katharine Hepburn in the Forties and Sarah Silverman now, I don't know what I would do, I'm like Jesus, I love them all. Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
quote:I think ElJay qualifies as a lady under Kat's parameters.
May I suggest that you not tell her so to her face?
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Somehow, I don't think that will be helpful in this case.
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
![[Monkeys]](graemlins/monkeys.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
)