quote:

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Is there anyone else here who plays/writes music just as a hobby, without any real ambition for it?

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I sing in choirs and things as a hobby and I play the piano as a relaxing hobby .
 

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Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
 
I guess my being in the high school orchestra was a hobby because my only goal out of it was to have fun and make friends, and I was never the best.
 

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Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
 
I'm betting writing lyrics for songs about kids who eat glue doesn't count?
 

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Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
 
I played clarinet, bagpipes and percussion through high school and college, and I've taken enough piano lessons that I can plunk through some four-part hymns and the like. I still have a clarinet and a keyboard, but I don't play them as much as I ought to.

Generally, I'm with Elizabeth. I'm more a listener than a player these days. My greatest success musically was when I was a DJ. I no longer have that job, but I'm still a compulsive music collector. I'm up to about 1,200 CDs (and boxes of tapes and records) covering nearly every genre imaginable, and I usually bring them to work in mp3 format, either on my laptop or on burned CDs, and play DJ for my co-workers. It's about as close as I get to being a musician anymore, and, in answer to your question, I do find it relaxing. It's a great de-stressor and time killer while I'm working.
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
.I'm learning to play the guitar. I makes up stories all the time and I have to listen to music CONSTANTLY. All the time... Almost every second. All sorts of genres.
 

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Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
 
What are you listening to right now, Syn?
 

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Posted by sillygoose (Member # 1616) on :
 
I play the piano and my saxophone as a hobby (since I'm no longer in a band) I sometimes wish I had more time for it though; I love playing.
 

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Posted by Jonathan K. (Member # 7720) on :
 
brit-pop i.e stranglers, gang of four, clash
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
I keep listening to these two Isaac Hayes songs Joy and I wanna make love to you.
And this song by Yoko Kanno called Genesis of Aquarion which is so cooooool.
Madonna
I have Nothing by Whitney Houston
Dir en grey becaue they are the best band ever.
Lots of Laura Nyro
and other stuff.
 

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Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
I do a weekly singer/guitar thing. I love it. When I first moved back from college, I didn't have a regular gig for the first time in about 3 years. It was relaxing for a few months, but then I started to miss it intensely. Playing music is very therapeutic for me.
 

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Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
 
I love Isaac Hayes. Have you ever heard the Hooverphonic song "2Wicky" that samples "Walk On By"? Super groovy, but dangerously addicting.
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Speed, you should check out Greg Keelor.

I am trying to teach myself guitar so I can play rhythm for my son. It is soooo hard! My clarinet is broken, or I would play that with him. I want to learn how to really improvise on the clarinet. I always played well, but I want to learn to play off the cuff.

Clarinet is much ignored in rock music, and I think it is such a cool sound. Railroad Earth has clarinet in some of their songs. the guy plays a metal clarinet. I had never seen one before.
 

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Posted by Rico (Member # 7533) on :
 
I play guitar just about every day. I love it, it just takes all my worries away.

Lately I've been starting to try to learn how to sing, that and play at the same time without sounding like a cat being tortured.

I used to be in a band, I sort of miss it. I can't seem to be able to find a good group of people to play with these days. Granted, I haven't really tried very hard, but I just feel like bands are so much better if you're friends with the group beforehand
 

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Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
 
I got a degree in music comp and promptly quit writing music. I don't think I've finished a thing since, although I have started a few things about once a purple moon...

I played clarinet too. I play it about once a year at christmas, if that. Earlier this year I tried to do a rock band thing with some friends w/ me on clarinet but it didn't work.

I've seen metal clarinets. I don't think there is anything great about them. However, a soprano sax is something else. I love them and played one in high school, but not since.

I sang in large choirs in high school, even barbershop. Since then, all I've sang at is church. Mormon church choirs have a bad rep.

I've also conducted church choirs and "primary" (children) for many (5, 10? I can't remember) years. I'm finally released from all music callings and besides church choir I'm not doing anything musical...

Except I started a thread about hatrackers doing a choir. Right now that appears to be my only real music outlet as the only friend I still have from college days wont condescend to sing with untrained singer me. (he's had singing lessons his whole life or something and I've never really studied *singing*... He says if I want to write some music though, he wont have to condescend because I studied to do that... )

So anyway, even with this background, I find it hard to do music on the hobby level. It is more of a *wish* level. I could join some random choir, but I tend to not like them. And I'm not about to spend more of my life in school so I can say I'm trained, so the types of people I want to hobnob with will. And I don't want to write music because I don't know if my brain cells have recovered from having studied music composition. Haha. Just kidding. I don't know why I don't write music. I just don't.

[ November 13, 2005, 04:44 AM: Message edited by: human_2.0 ]
 

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Posted by Steev (Member # 6805) on :
 
I almost got my music degree. I compose mainly for myself, and others when asked. I'm not prolific by any means and in the last three years I have been suffering from a tremendous writers block complicated by Adult ADD. I have many unfinished works and no motivation to finish them. I think I’m no longer interested in composing for myself anymore, and no one I know is really all that interested in the work I’ve already done.

One of the frustrations I had in school while working on my music degree, and partially why I left, was because of the abhorrent level of superciliousness within the students and faculty. Their attitude was don’t bother writing any new music as there is no value in it unless you’re Bach or Mozart.

To say I’m a bit depressed and frustrated about it is an understatement but truthful nonetheless.
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
Aw
but composing is so awesome. As long as it is something epic and cool that makes you feel good and explosive manyt are bond to like it.
 

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Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
 
Where's that video of Primal Curve doing his guitar solo?
 

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Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
 
I played saxophone in high school but haven't come back to it in College, mostly because the music program here is so geared toward majors that people who just want to play for fun get kinda left out. I played in a pickup Jazz Band for a while before they shut it down. I love playing Jazz music, and I was always pretty good at it. When I was home this summer my mom said what a shame it was that I don't play anymore because she considered me to be the best of all us kids who were in band, and now I just miss it.
 

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Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
 
I'm like a lot of you... when I was a teenager, I had dreams of being a professional musician (I was a Christian, so I thought of it as a ministry). I was part of a Christian rock band called New Citizens for a couple of years... we were sponsored by a local Baptist church, playing camps and youth services, and even cutting a demo once. Then we all went to college and moved on... I continued to fiddle around in cover bands for a while, but when I got married I sold my instruments and put that behind me (only occasionally doing the odd show with other teachers to make the kids laugh at the schools I worked for). This summer, though, I started playing around with Apple's Garage Band, got a midi keyboard and a plug to hook my teenage daughter's guitar into my iBook, and started goofing around. It really helped relieve the stress I was beginning to feel, and though I doubt I'll ever actually do anything with it, it's a lot of fun to create stuff for others to listen to. I post my stuff on iCompositions along with tons of other amateur musicians, and we give each other feedback and share in a rewarding hobby (you can even hear some of my pieces if you go to the website in my profile— www.icompositions.com/artists/DavidBowles ).

There once was a time when most fully rounded people were able to play an instrument, and parties centered on everyone's singing songs together. Too bad we've lost that...

[ November 14, 2005, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: David Bowles ]
 

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Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
 
I find it somewhat theraputic to write lyrics. It doesn't even have to make sense. Over the summer a friend of mine and I wrote raps based on stories by Dr. Seuss. Did they make sense? Of course not! But it still helped to relax us.

We've used this randomisity to occasionally write songs for our band. We have lyrics, but we have no music. We can't play our instruments very well. He is supposed to play guitar and I am supposed to play bass. We have two other members who play guitar and drums, but they do not particpate in the writing process.

I have a feeling our band won't ever really get organized. We do have a name though, and we have a plan. But no real music.

For anyone who is curious, our band name is:

The Kidney Stones
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
"There once was a time when most fully rounded people were able to play an instrument, and parties centered on everyone's singing songs together. Too bad we've lost that..."

Ha.
At my grandmother's funeral this week, my aunt and my dad got out the old piano music from when they were younger, and layed Name That Tune with my elderly aunt. it was so much fun, and I thought the sae thing, David: I wish we still did this as part of our "fun."

Some people still do, and that is why I really want to learn enough guitar that my son and I can play together. it is such a lovely feling in the brain when you play music with someone, or sing together.
 

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Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
 
Oh and I am in Jazz Band. Loads of fun that. I'm in normal band and marching band, as well. And I listen to music almost constantly. I think I have background music for everything...
 

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Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
 
Those of you who use Macs, you ought really to try playing around with Garage Band... you'd be surprised at how versatile it is...
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
I've sung in choirs since I was three. I also sing with the family band-- the Crescent Valley Specials. And I'm the designated kazoo soloist when we perform "Saint James Infirmary Blues". I write songs occasionally, and I sing all the time at home, always have.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Kazoo?


That's ALMOST like music.


Sometimes.



 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Well, I do a Louis Armstrong-inspired trumpet-style solo. It's soooo much fun.

Even the word kazoo is fun.

But mainly, I'm the lead singer, sometimes switching off to sing harmony.
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
Music used to be my hobby. I was an ed major with a minor in music. I was good enough (vocalist) to be in the touring groups all through college, so I've been able to see the world and sing in great European cathedrals...My music life easily dwarfed the life I led as an ed major. (I did musical theater, opera, and I remember being jealous of my music major friends when they would talk about their choral lit and theory classes. )

I finally came around and got my degree in music. Now that I do it as a profession (High school choir, elementary music, church choir), I don't EVER get a chance to sing solo or in a good ensemble. That makes me sad when I have time to think about it. I really had it good...I was good enough to sing for people, but I didn't have the drive to go all the way. Just the way I liked it. I still get asked to sing in different places now and then, but now I'm the conductor more often than not. I love that, but I miss performing. I'm a ham. I get such a rush from performing with a great ensemble, or even doing solo work. *sigh*

I should probably start doing some of that again, shouldn't I? I read David's story about it relieving stress and think "Yeah. That makes sense. I should DO that!"
 

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Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
 
I played the drums for a bit today. I can't do much more than a standard beat so I just keep doing that over and over. It relieves stress every now and then.
 

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Posted by Artemisia Tridentata (Member # 8746) on :
 
I had dreams of being a "broadway pit musician" in HS and College. But, after a tour with a military band and getting to know the pit musicians there, I lost the dream. However, I did play with a National Guard band for 15 years, and always played with a community orchestra. Both activities were high points in any given week. However, now I live in the desert in more ways than one. The bassoon and the sax sit in the closet. If there were something avalable in the community I would definitly do it. That is where my warmest frends generally came from.
 

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Posted by mistaben (Member # 8721) on :
 
What a great thread. Music is wonderful. My 3-year-old sings all day long, probably because we do, too! We've made up songs for prayer time, teeth-brushing time, and many others. They help a great deal.

Growing up we were always singing, and I still love to hear my parents sing together ("O Divine Redeemer" from them is amazing). They've also sang with my aunt and uncle for 20+ years.

I sang in 9th and 12th grades, then I did the vocal jazz ensemble during freshman year of college. On my mission we performed a musical based on "From Cumorah's Hill." Since then it's been ward choirs and the at-home stuff I mentioned above.

My senior year at BYU I talked about forming a physics choir composed of my (very talented) classmates, but that never materalized. I've talked about it with my classmates here in grad school, since many of them play an instrument or sing. Maybe when we're not so busy with classes and homework...

I played the viola for 10 years but had to stop after high school for lack of my own instrument. I dreamily check Craigslist now and again...

I love music. I love the way it can move, inspire, relax, excite, entertain, and teach me.

[Edit: added what follows]

Musical experiences I wish to repeat include singing in a cathedral and playing great orchestral works (anything by Shostakovich, Barber's Adagio for Strings, Elgar's 9th Enigma variation, Handel's Messiah, Sibelius' 2nd Symphony, Tchaikovsky's Nutcracker, etc.) as part of a full symphony orchestra.

Oh, and when I started college I wanted to be a H.S. choir director!

[ November 14, 2005, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: mistaben ]
 

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Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
 

quote:

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Those of you who use Macs, you ought really to try playing around with Garage Band... you'd be surprised at how versatile it is...

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quote:

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There once was a time when most fully rounded people were able to play an instrument, and parties centered on everyone's singing songs together. Too bad we've lost that...

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quote:

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That's why communities like www.icompositions.com have sprung up

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quote:

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There once was a time when most fully rounded people were able to play an instrument, and parties centered on everyone's singing songs together. Too bad we've lost that...

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Hang out with Irish folks. Most people will at least have a "party piece" and gatherings will almost always include a sing-song or a sessiun.
 

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Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
 
twink, awesome! For some reason that track makes me think of a team-up between Philip Glass and Portishead... I really dig it.
 

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Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
 
human, I dig. If you ever want to share something with other jatraqueros, I'm game.
 

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Posted by Krankykat (Member # 2410) on :
 
David:

You are sort of a freakin Donna, TX Renascence man. Education, Music, Lit... what else do you have up your sleeve? I listened to several of the tracts and liked the one for your son the best.

The school here needed a male in 6th grade so I am now teaching social studies (took the history Excet a couple of years ago). The kids are all right, but they are big babies. I don't miss Donna at all, but I hear really great things about the IDEA Academy.

My daughter graduated number 2 in her class from McHi in the spring, passed all of her AP exams, and is going to A&M. She will be a sophmore at the end of this semester!

My son is #10 in his class but does not work too hard to make As. He is also playing baseball.

As for me, I do yardwork and am fixing up an 86 El Camino. A little muscle car action! It will be Dereks when he turns 16 in Feb. He will probably destroy all of my hard work and $ spent the first month he drives it.

I don't look at Hatrack much anymore. It is not as interesting as it once was.

Keep up the good work.

Andrew
 

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Posted by Steev (Member # 6805) on :
 
I wonder if this aberration of musical rendering will amuse anyone.

Beautiful Life

If you know the lyrics then by all means sing along.
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
Speed, I totally play the clarinet and bagpipes. Piano, flute, and piccolo, too.

-pH
 

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Posted by dh (Member # 6929) on :
 
I wanted to be a rock star once (and I still do ) but now I'm afraid it's solely for relaxation. I don't have time or the motivation to do any more.
 

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Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
 
Right on, pH. You're up on me if you actually play the bagpipes. I put that on the list because I used to play it, but I was in the band for exactly long enough to leave no trace of it on my long-term memory. If someone handed me a pipe now, I'd be hard pressed to even get the drones going, and that's saying nothing of figuring out how "Scotland the Brave" goes.

Aren't they fun, though? They look so easy to play when you see other people doing it. I remember the first time I tried to play them myself. I literally passed out before I could get a sound out of them. When I finally got to the point where I could play them without losing consciousness, I was so proud of myself.
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
I was a bagpipe tuner for three years in high school in addition to playing. I own a set, which is currently at my parents' house. Also, I can play the Imperial March.

I was once asked to play in a short skirt on MTV, but I ended up not doing it. However, as a result, I can also play the Backstreet Boys.

I love the bagpipes. They're so fun.

-pH
 

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Posted by boogashaga (Member # 8881) on :
 
I would like to express my feelings for those of you who have great talent in musical arenas. If you pass on, with the music still within you, how have you bettered society? To those who have been given much, much is required. If you have talents given unto you, you are expected to develope them.

Several years ago, my then 14 year old daughter sort of took me aside and told me that she had noticed that I was not composing anything anymore. She also noticed that I was moody, grumpy, etc. She told me that I needed to have a project and that since I couldn't seem to come up with one, she would give it to me. She told me that I should write a "Braodway-style" musical about my favorite Book of Mormon story, which she knew was the 2000 strippling warriors mentioned in the Book of Alma. She sort of "shamed" me into it, I must admit.

Well, that sort of "jumpstarted" me. After the musical. I started work on a Xmas cantata that I always kept saying every Xmas that I would write--but always for "next year." Sound familiar? The Xmas cantata exploded into a sort of "Life of Christ" type of work which the Ward Choir Director told me was way too long. I split it and we did the death and resurection portion for the following Easter. I recently finished several songs for the original roadshow I submitted last summer. Even though my roadshow was not selected, I was still able to keep on "working," and those of you in the situations that I have seen described in this thread understand how important it is to keep on doing SOMETHING.

I know what it is like to have an instrument in the closet (or the garage or in storage, etc). If all that you can do is listen, that is great--if that is all that you can do. If you can do MORE, you SHOULD--even if it never gets past that box on the end of the lower shelf of that bookcase out in the garage (you know, the one behind the boogie boards that you never use anymore).

You might approach the Ward Choir Director and submit ideas, sketches, scores to her/him and see if you can do something in that area. Please remember when you write something for the Ward Choir, that you write it for the Ward Choir and NOT for the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, OK? Those of you with abilities in the area of popular music might consider the roadshow angle; its a lot of fun!

My arrangements of music for the Stake that I live in have brought requests to me for original music to be used at an interdenominational Thanksgiving festival sponsored by a city near where I live. I have also done a fair amount of writing for many non-LDS churches in the area, also.

I am getting rich off of this? Heck no! But I am getting some of my stuff "out there," and as musicians, we all have a sort of mental defect in that area, RIGHT? I don't play very much anymore, but I still want to. The local Bishops are still somewhat "afraid" of orchestral music in Sacrament Meeting--but I keep on hoping and working toward that goal (Clifford Barnes always felt sorry for those lines he wrote.).

I sincerly hope that these words do not come across as a "sermon" or are felt as a "denigration" to or about anyone. They are not given with those intentions. We who are musicians need to stick together and help each other out. If one of us "loses," I personally feel that we all "lose." I don't want ANY of us to "lose." I want us ALL to "win," and help each other out.

As this is my first post here at "Hatrack," I fell that I must apologize somewhat for the length of my comments. I hope that I didn't lose too many readers due to its length.
 

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Posted by Steev (Member # 6805) on :
 
Well... I guess it's not all a total loss then. There are still people out there like you who can still better society.

But it's only going to mean anything to those who are looking for different things, which, compared to those who are not, is very small. And I don't think I’m being all that cynical either.
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
Kudos Boogashaga, I am a current music student at Uc Davis, studying music history/ and theory comp as well as playing classical guitar and singing. Recently due to copious exposure to exciting new music and exciting new friends, I started composing a lot more music, and to great effect if my comp teacher is any judge. Thanks for the encouragement, most people don't understand musicians, don't take us seriously, insult us calling themselves musicians when they are not, or dismiss us as excentric, or useless. Of course, we are a great community, and we need to stick together.
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
I have great respect for anyone who studies music theory. I was told to take the Theory I class for music majors as opposed to the "Principles of Music" or whatever class that was usually taken by students in my program with limited musical experience. As soon as the dean heard about the instrumets I'd played, he told me that although I'd do very, very well in the principles class, I probably wouldn't learn anything at all.

Theory I was very, very tough, but I definitely did learn a lot. I only got a C, but I worked very hard for it.

-pH
 

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Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
 

quote:

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Kudos Boogashaga, I am a current music student at Uc Davis, studying music history/ and theory comp as well as playing classical guitar and singing. Recently due to copious exposure to exciting new music and exciting new friends, I started composing a lot more music, and to great effect if my comp teacher is any judge. Thanks for the encouragement, most people don't understand musicians, don't take us seriously, insult us calling themselves musicians when they are not, or dismiss us as excentric, or useless. Of course, we are a great community, and we need to stick together.

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quote:

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insult us calling themselves musicians when they are not

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quote:

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There once was a time when most fully rounded people were able to play an instrument, and parties centered on everyone's singing songs together. Too bad we've lost that...

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quote:

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btw, I have some new stuff up on www.icompositions.com/artists/DavidBowles

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quote:

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Originally posted by David Bowles:
Yeah, just what IS a musician, anyway? Someone who studies music, learns to play several instruments really well, reads music perfectly, etc.

OR

Someone who plays by ear, masters several instruments on her own, can't read music very well at all, but has written her own material and doesn't just spend the rest of her professional career playing the pieces written by "masters"?

Despite the smarmy tone of the last example, I personally think both those people, and everyone on the continuum between them, deserves to be called a musician...

btw, I have some new stuff up on www.icompositions.com/artists/DavidBowles

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In my case, both. Anyway I like your stuff.

Here is where I've poseted some of my compositions.
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
That's the kind of attitude that results in "most people" not understanding you, or even wanting to.


Hah! Kudos again for pointing out my condescension, its hard to stay conected when your off in your own universe. Still though, the feeling I express remains a part of my view, I am by virtue of being very commited, also very impatient with others in such matters as this. I am not religious, but I do remember the parable of the vineyard owner, paying all workers equally, tohugh some worked full days, some only an hour or so, because the pay was fair even for a whole day. I shouldn't be jealous of my hold in the musical community, although I can't help being that way!
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
for under $2000 you can get a portable studio, complete with effects, that dwarfs the capabilities of the studios used by the Beatles, Jimi Hendrix, Johnny Cash, or Ray Charles in their heyday.

If only this technology resulted in the same calabre of music as was produced then... this is entirely my own opinion
 

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Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
 
Some of it does. That's entirely my own opinion.
 

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Posted by Steev (Member # 6805) on :
 
Orincoro, going back to what you said earlier about "most people don't understand musicians, don't take us seriously.. etc."

I may be overly cynical in this regard but here is my experience.

In "most" people's world what is deemed acceptable as "good" music is only what can be heard on TV and purchased at Wal-Mart. To me what sounds good is good. The definition of what sounds good in not up for debate because it is completely subjective to a persons own mental wiring. But "most" people insist on letting you know that "good" is up for debate.

Now, as I've set out on a career with which I have a chance of being successful (not music), I no longer have access to my composition professor or anyone of any musical knowledge I trust that I can consult. I tried to consult many so-called composers, many claiming to be PhDs, through the Internet. However, I quickly found that many of them were too caught up in particular genres they felt were the only acceptable form of modern music or they felt that the only acceptable music has already been written back before 1750, or they would spend all of their time arguing the mathematic intricacies or relevance of musical progressions. In short they were arrogant and condescending and not much use to any body but themselves.

I found that the more I got myself around people who were not interested in new music the more likely I was to not share my musical talents. And because of that I'm finding it harder to complete the hundreds of compositions I started. I don't have an audience that cares.

Now the question is what do I do about it? Snap out of it? Easier said than done, but necessary nonetheless.

I'm snapping out of it by finding other outlets of creativity such as Filmmaking, Writing etc. For some reason I don't have the same emotional and personal attachments to these new outlets that I do to music. Music is just too personal for me to not have it taken seriously. But what has happened recently is I've taken on a desire to mock the popular music. Re-rendering them in presentations that would offend the very people who found the original version as acceptable. Check out my treatment of Ace of Base's "Beautiful Life" I posted earlier in this thread for an example. I will be adding vocals to that version as time permits. If you don't like it then I was successful and I'm happy. If you do like it than I was successful and I'm happy. Either way I win.

And when I've snapped out of it enough I will then finish those hundreds of compositions I started.
 

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Posted by boogashaga (Member # 8881) on :
 
I'm glad to see that the thread has sort of received a "new life." Sometimes a new infusion of blood can save a life. Sometimes all it takes is for you to get a little "jumpstart" and you can continue your creativity. Gordon B. Hinckley once said the following:

1. Cynics do not contribute.
2. Skeptics do not create.
3. Doubters do not achieve.

Try not to surround yourselves with people who tell you that you can't do it. This is very easy to write and very difficult to accomplish, as most of us have friends and family that are (many times) not as supportive as we might like them to be. Creative people need to be around other creative people--note that I am not saying that the other people need to have Ph. D.s to be the right kind of people. Doctral-level academics are gifted specialists in their fields of endeavor and true gifts to the world, but they may not be the type of person that can help you to achieve what you desire. Many professors and insturctors take pride amongst themselves at how they can "put down" students--I know this through personal, first hand experience. On the other hand, how many of you have ever heard of a show called "American Idol" wherein everyone who gets up on the dias thinks that they are God's gift to the listening public? It is a fine line, for sure.

As a musician myself, I feel that it is imperative that you keep on "keeping on." If you can, do it. If you can't, help someone else to do it. There was a response to an earlier post of mine within this thread wherein the poster said in what appeared to be a sarcastic manner that the poster was glad that at least I could benefit society and then tried to cover up the bent of the remark by writing that the remark was not cynical. The truth of the matter is that all artists, be they sculptors, composers, artists, performers, photographers, and yes Uncle Orson, even authors can, should, and indeed even DO benefit society. Beauty comes in many forms, as indeed does ugliness. It sort of depends on which side you wish to be on, doesn't it? I choose, in this instance, to be on the side of creativity, beauty, and benefitting society.

Special note to Steev--First you need to make a list, Steev, of the stuff that you want to finish. This only needs to be a few notes about the composition, painting, etc.--enough to be able to jog your memory of the main idea, the chords or melody, the spacing of the articles to paint, etc. Do this for as many of the things that you eventually want to do. Later, expand the list, if at all possible, going into somewhat more detail. This second list will become your "brain." The agent orange has sort of screwed up my brain (along with the Los Angeles smog, carne assada burritos, and, of course High Councilman Sacrament Meeting speakers), so my "brain" list has saved many a thought of mine so that I can work on it at a later date. Also, sometimes you need to do an entirely different type of "project" to sort of "clean out" the "pipes" of what is actually left of your real brain. As an example--I am currently rewriting my Ward Emergency Plan (it is at about 75 pages now!). Doing "other" stuff really helps me--it might help you too, who knows? The important thing here is to not lose the lists. I have tried compiling all of the first lists into a special notebook for my second "brain" list. Now as long as I don't misplace THAT, I'll be OK.

Please remember that great phrase of the early seveties and "Keep On Truckin'."
 

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Posted by Steev (Member # 6805) on :
 
Boogashaga,

That was me that made that snarky comment and then said I wasn't being all that cynical.

I'm not much for giving helpful advice on subjects other than to say what I've gone though and I've gone through a lot of crap. But, when I'm back on track I will probably be less of a jerk and more helpful.

In any case I'm working it out. I've got a lot to overcome and most of what I have to overcome is myself. And it so happens that what I'm doing is in line with what you are saying to do and I can tell you that it is working.

edit: Oh yeah I also remember a cartoon that was made for that "keep on trucking" mantra in the 70's
 

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Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
I have had the delightful experience of being allowed to play along with some truly talented musicians. I think the #1 requirement for being a great musician is being able to share it with others. There're are probably untold numbers of people who are technically great (i.e., know their instrument and could compose pieces that are well received by the cogniscenti). In the grand scheme of things, I think they are less important to the world than people who can inspire others to become musicians, or to become better musicians, or even to simply love music.

It's gotta have soul, and you don't learn that in school.

But if you have soul, getting expert-level training is a great and wonderful thing.
 

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Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
 
Except, on occasion, I've seen people with soul lose it because they get taken with the exprert level training and get focussed on how technically difficult something is. The really impressive thing is when you can do something complex and difficult, yet still imbue it with the fire or just pure fun of something like "Louie, Louie" or "Shout", or, better yet, the simple honesty and heart of "Hurt" (especially Johnny Cash's version) or "Knockin' on Heaven's Door" (personal favorite, the Clapton/Sanborn collaboration from Lethal Weapon 2).

A criminally unknown and underrated song for this combination, IMO, is Rush's "Cold Fire" off of "Counterparts". It sounds, in places, almost simple enough to be a country/western song, but there are important segments which are very difficult to play as a band because the drums and guitar are in two separate worlds (and as bassist, you have to make them both fit together, yikes!).

But coattailing on your thought, the musicians I find the best are the ones that make people around them (especially me) better. Playing with them... the people that fit and shape their music with yours and build it into something truly amazing... that's just plain heaven.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 

quote:

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But coattailing on your thought, the musicians I find the best are the ones that make people around them (especially me) better. Playing with them... the people that fit and shape their music with yours and build it into something truly amazing... that's just plain heaven.

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I was lucky enough to be surrounded by a circle of these-- my dad's music buds-- all through my early childhood. They gave the same attention and respect to someone just learning to play guitar, someone who jammed on their level, and even a seven-year-old girl who wanted to sing and her four-year-old brother who wanted to jam on the harmonica or play the bongoes. They made us feel valued and included and like we could really make the music better by participating-- an invaluable gift to a child. I credit them with my still doing music today. (In fact, many of them are still the ones I do it with, in more public forums now that I've had more training and experience and my voice is mature.)
 

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Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
 
@ KQ

I knew a guy who could take a triangle or a shaker and make a very ordinary solo-guitar folk piece into something transcendent. *That's* a musician. I'd be willing to bet some of that 4 yr old bongo work actually sounded pretty good in the context the other guys put around it... or maybe not, but you can make music from almost any noise, if you are skilled enough.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 

quote:

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I'd be willing to bet some of that 4 yr old bongo work actually sounded pretty good in the context the other guys put around it...

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It did. Because they were that good and had the generous spirits to be willing to do that. They even gave him solos.

And do you know how much it boosted my singing confidence to be carefully listened to, played under, harmonized with, and afterwards praised for my tone and pitch and soul and clapped for? I really can't thank those people enough.
 

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Posted by boogashaga (Member # 8881) on :
 
KQ--Since when is your voice mature? You remind me of an ox cart going down a steep, cobblestoned road in Heidelburg with the brake on.

This is not the case, however, when you are eating Polish food, of course. Then, you truly sound like the angel that you are.

Jump on my "bandwagon," will you?

Just so that the rest of you know, this Ketchup Kid and I have been joshing each other since I discovered how to use the internet (a few months ago--I have a slightly deprived life, as well as a slightly demented brain). She truly is a great vocalist. I predict that her power, dynamics, and range will surely increase . . . as her children get older.
 

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Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by boogashaga:
I predict that her power, dynamics, and range will surely increase . . . as her children get older.

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I would bet they do (says the father of five)
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Well, teaching daycare sure helped.

(It also helped my hearing. I can tune out good-natured screaming two feet away while detecting a softly-uttered swear word from the distance of the length of a full football field. Poor kids never knew what hit them.)
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 

quote:

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I have a slightly deprived life, as well as a slightly demented brain

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Yup, he's travelled the world, but still uses a phone book to find a local business. Really!
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
(I bet he looks in a cookbook when he needs a recipe, too. )
 

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Posted by boogashaga (Member # 8881) on :
 
What's a recipe?
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
It's the thing that enables you to eat Polish food without going to a restaurant. Sometimes men get lucky and their wives or mothers use it for them.
 

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Posted by boogashaga (Member # 8881) on :
 
I noted your plural utilization of "wives." You must be a "mormon." Maybe I should get a Polish wife (and a Mexican, and an Italian, etc.). Nah, I bet that's too expensive for such a broke musician trying to learn the internet. I'll stick to my music and keep the current spouse.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
Yeah, besides, don't you have enough womenfolk around already?
 

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Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
I just have to post this. I was playing drums in the church band last weekend and I flubbed a simple two-measure break. I was so flippin' embarrassed, I did it again the next time it came up in the song.

So, I just went over to the church to practice and I sounded GOOD. I mean GOO-OOD. No guarantee I won't flub when next we play that song with the two-measure break. But still. It was fun to just pound the old skins for awhile.

Tomorrow, the choir sings at 2 services, Dana preaches at 3 services, and runs the youth drama program through its paces. Then we sing a truncated version of Handel's Messiah (only 2 hours or so long). Then the evening service I get to drum again. But we're doing Christmasy music so probably no drum breaks in these. But if one comes up...I'm ready!


 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
I was busy during the day with a rehearsal of St. nicholas and the Cichester Psalms (both works include boy altos! WOW!!!)

Anyway, to go back to our more philisophic moment in the thread it I could: Thanks for the insight everbody!

It gets so amazingly hard to talk about music when you have some people being very "classicly minded" others very intuitive and differently minded toward traditional workds, or new work that is either not traditional or is anti-traditional.

Obviously I think we are reaching the group consensus that "musician" really is not a definable thing, and that is a source of alot of rancor over who is a true musician, who is not, and who can say between them, what is an isn't anything.

I have often noticed, working both with ultramodern and experimental composers, very classical performers and conductors and teachers, and a wide middle range of people interested in all manners of music, that very often the source of the greatest dis-ease among us all is the perception of others.

For example, one very dedicated proponent of Debussy says that Bach has no emotional appeal and is too formally structuralist. The Bachofile immediately challenges the Dubussian to a duel and they go down shooting. They are both dedicated and intelligent, but music is a field with a unique blend of intuition and structure which is HUGELY variable. Very few, I dare say even NO OTHER FIELD is so variable and adjustable as music is, so we have to be amazingly resiliant as music lovers.

For example: we do not expect people who like to look at greco roman arhitecture to also havea a keen knowledge of prefab housing in Idaho (or wherever if you are defensive about idaho). Yet when one person likes boroque or classical period music exclusively, he is often dismissed as old fasioned or unwilling to respect new work. At the same time we don't demand that our modern architects have a comprehensive knowledge of the construction of thatched roofs in 14th century london, yet we often hold musicians responsible for being unaware of past movements in their art.

I had a teacher a few years ago who quoted someone I don't recall who, who said that writing about music is like dancing about architecture, so I thought that was amazingly insightful, if a bit prosaic (pun intended).
 

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Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
 
My 2 favorite composers would have to be Bach and Debussy. I can't see how anyone can say anything bad about either of them.

Vaughan Williams fits in there somewhere as being my most favorite composer too.
 

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Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
 
But yeah, I know what you mean about Bach and Debussy.

As far as capturing the musical identity of a song and being able to judge it, I've given it a lot of thought and decided you should know what I think.

Style is the easiest quality to identify. All country has a twangy guitar--if you like country music, you probably like twangy guitars.......

Then there is the message. Nearly all music says something. Even if a message is completely vague and not based in a story (programatic music), it still needs to be there. A prime example of music that has no message is completely random 12-tone music. And I dare say even current atonal composers aren't very fond of that music. Heavy metal generally has a pretty dark/negative message. I don't think anyone has really tried to do much analysis of this. It is a subconscious thing and people are drawn to what resonates with them.

Beyond style and message, there is interaction. Good artists interact with their audience. It applies to both composer and performer. I think this quality determines how effective a piece of music is and thus how popular it becomes. Beetles, Elvis, Michael Jackson, and Mozart are prime examples of artists who interact(ed) with their audiences. Atonal music only interacts with audiences who are "elite," thus it isn't popular outside of those audiences.

These are the 3 building blocks of music IMO.

However, it is hard to analyze the 3 qualities separately. Heavy metal is almost always dark, negative, and sad. Pop music is almost always passionate, emotional, and trance inducing, Country is almost always cheerful, bright, and fun. And since people decide what music they like because of the message they prefer, they aren't objective judges of styles that have messages they don't like.

Most people judge a style by its message. But they are different qualities. For example, elevator music versions of Def Leopard songs change the songs' original message... Lyrics don't often determine what the message is. Lyrics usually reflect the music's message, but singing Sunday hymn lyrics to a heavy metal song wont change the heavy metal song's message if it is performed the same way (screechy lead singer, loud drums, distorted guitar, etc).

Secondly, within each style, there is a vast amount of effective music. There are many failed musicians in every style because they can't interact well with their audiences. And there are the superstars of every style... But because people care most about message, they don't really see how effective a musician is in context of their style compared to effective musicians in a different style. For example, you can love Def Leopard and hate Depeche Mode. But within their styles, both were effective bands. And neither of them would have become popular if they weren't effective.

So because these 3 qualities are so inter-rated, music can sometimes seem very mysterious. For example two songs that have the same message and style can be totally different because one was written or performed by someone who interacted more with the audience. Classical musicians suffer from interaction problems IMO. They are performing music intended for another generation and they don't relate and can't convey the composers' interaction to their modern audience. A few classical performers can (Yo-Yo Ma). However, an effective musician could completely switch style and lose the audience because the audience wanted the message (which changed when the style changed) and didn't much care for the interaction (other than the lack of it). Duke Ellington suffered this fate when he switched from Big Band Jazz to religious music.

[ December 04, 2005, 05:13 AM: Message edited by: human_2.0 ]
 

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Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
 
And one more thing. Skill is a time thing. Sure, Mozart was born with perfect pitch and memory so he could whip stuff out like it was finger painting. And some autistic people can play the piano without any practice. For everyone else, it is just a time thing. You get good at what you spend your time on.

My high school sax teacher told me if I wasn't planning on practicing 6 hours every day that I shouldn't bother planning to play sax professionally.

I started my current line of work, computers, with very little actual skill and practical knowledge (most of my computer experience was years old from when I used a computer as a kid). Over the years I've gotten very good, have actually published stuff, and am <shock> considered smart (in my little computer circle, which isn't that big). But I know it is only because I have been spending the last few years working on that line of work.

What I studied to do, music, I am very poor at now because I haven't been spending the time on it. I know lots of theory, and I think about this (value and meaning of music) a lot, but I'm so rusty at actual composition. I am way behind my contemporaries who actually do write music.

So as far as musicians go, if you haven't played much, sure you will make mistakes. But that doesn't mean you can't perform. Anyone can interact with the audience. That is a skill too that takes learning, but if I had the choice between a flawless performance and a performance that moved the audience, I would pick the latter.
 

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Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
 
One last last thing (for tonight). I think people who are elitist are that way because they don't understand what makes good music and so they invent rules that they follow and others don't. I think the Ivory Tower (uni's) are afflicted with this. Atonal music (what the uni's teach) is built on top of artificial rules in the name of "originality."

I felt very good about my junior composition and other people told me it was the best work at the concert. (mvt 2 mvt 3). However, I was writing to the audience (most of them parents of students), so of course they would like something tonal (my work was tonal, most everything else at the concert was atonal).

But another key thing was that in the 3rd mvt, I was pretty much mocking 12-tone music. Some people picked up on it, including the professors. They were very *cool* towards me after that, which is why I think I was threatened in my senior year that I better write atonal music or else. A visiting professor from England almost went livid in anger and he couldn't insult it enough.

2 years later, with a few atonal pieces under my belt, I wrote a nice little dity, that was nice and atonal. I was teaching a freshman sight singing class, and well, I recruited 4 freshman students to play it. They were all very good performers, but well, one of the players got 2 measures off. Nobody knew except me and them (I was conducting them). The professors raved to me about the work (because I obeyed all the (artifical) rules). But nobody else liked it, including me. Very different from my junior year.

That was a one of the reasons why I decided to bail on music and start doing computers full time.

I should say though. Even within atonal music, there is effective and ineffective music. My piece was ineffective IMO and the professors complimented it. It would have been better if they were more honest and said it sucked and my junior piece was better. But I'm not saying all atonal music is ineffective. I've listened to a lot of it and most of it accomplishes the goals they set out to acheive.

Wow, I've written a book......
 

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Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
 
Hehehe. I lied. One MORE thing.

I also have to give credit to my education. It was writing atonal music that I learned that message and style were separate. I didn't like the style, and so it didn't come naturally. I pretty much had to reverse-engineer the whole composition process (with teachers' help) and I came to see that a song had to have a message of some sort. Perhaps that is why they complimented my last work, it somehow managed to include a message.

If I had stuck with tonal music, I probably never would have saw the difference between style and message.

Unfortunately for me, having written as much atonal music as I did, I kinda lost my desire to write music. It has been 5 years, and I think the desire is starting to come back though.
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
quoting Human: They are performing music intended for another generation and they don't relate and can't convey the composers' interaction to their modern audience.


Yah its sad aint it? This is SOMETIMES true, and it is a very common perception, unfortunately not helped by some musicians or composers, although you might be surprised IMO
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
Human, so insightful, so right of you to point all this out. Although this strays WILDLY from what we were originally on about, no matter, because the all these points are valid issues in music.

I think that you might be surprised by the music community, at least here at UC Davis and probably in alot of other places, for being very willing to recognize quality in many genres. Although there is and will always be a bent toward the more academic areas of musical exploration.

You are DEAD ON about atonal composition. I have IMO brilliant professors and teachers and fellow students who labor with atonal music that no-one likes, and sometimes it is really hard for me to understand. I do get their unwillingness to pigeon-hole themselves as classicist and I respect that they want to move on into new areas of music, but this movement is tough.

I had an interesting class a few weeks ago, with a number of visiting professor/lecturers and musicians, very rare for an undergrad history survey of 20th century music. My proffessor put a peice of paper on the overhead, and it was a sheet with a bunch of well defined single line segments, a graphic score. HE asked us to respond to it.

We debated about the ways the score could be read, we talked about how it could be anything really. So he sat down at the piano and played a chopin Nocturn. He said to us, "that was my performance of this peice, since it can mean anything"

So we realized that it didn't meant just anything, it had to mean something after all... but what???
This annoyed me very much because it seemed almost a manipulation by the composer, a kind of thumbing the nose at everyone for thinking anything traditional. But I realized that this guy, (A very well known Composer circa 1975), was just reacting to his feelings about music. I didn't like the peice because all its qualities were extra-musical, it didn't have much to do with the performer, only the coolness, or indiness of the composer!

On one hand, as you most certainly know Human, we rail against the elitism we perceive in anything we do, but on the other, we spend COPIOUS amounts of time working on stuff, and feel entitled to a bit of superiority. Also, as many non-insane music lovers do not realize, some people (admitedly myself) often feel annoyed, exasperated and impatient with what we percieve as worthless in more popular music. This is elitism basically, but it comes from being very commited and concerned about music, not from needing a sense of superiority, and probably not from actually being superior, but from feeling very passionate, and very interested in what you do.

It is SO easy for people that don't like atonal music to call it elitist because it probably is. On the other side of the coin, atonal composers put tremendous amounts of effort (usually) into their work, and deserve credit from those who appreciate the result.

IN your circumstance, your teachers responded with genuine appreciation of your employment of their ideas, and maybe they know something you don't, or maybe not? AS to them responding only to their artificial rules, I agree that in a way that is all this is, but they probably did genuinly appreciate your work esthetically. At the same time, they might really not have enjoyed your tonal stuff because it didn't challenge their perceptions of tonality.

When Beethoven wrote his piano sonatas, it is hard for us to imagine that he did things that were unheard of, and unthinkable to contemporaries, today he is lauded as a genius and a treasure. One day, in the distant future, atonal music may be relevant in the same way, you never know.
 

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Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
 
whoa... not sure I can keep up with this.

Just a few thoughts on stuff that jumped out:

DeBussy (what I have heard of it) bores me.... sorry.

I don't like to define "musician" or "song writer", except in terms of someone who is "not there yet" (agreeing with human's "time" thesis).

I like, but don't really degree with the "dancing about architecture" quote. But I will say that two classically trained people arguing over whether Debussy or Bach is "better" is no different than two teenagers arguing over Yngwie Malmsteen verus Zakk Wylde.

Something I once told one of the six fans of my last original group, which he still has in his e-mail signature today: "Art without an audience is like gasoline without an engine." That is to say, it's all potential.
 

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Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
 
Please forgive... I got Debussy mixed with Dvorak for some reason... *DUH*

Debussy is fine... not my favorite, but just peachy
 

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Posted by boogashaga (Member # 8881) on :
 
Gentlemen (and ladies)--I believe that the idea of an engine without fuel is appropriate. Music needs to be created; we call this composition. In some forms of music it is created during the actual performance (progressive jazz, Iranian "classical" music, etc.), while in other forms it is laboruosly written down (fugues, 12 tone, etc.). Next would come the performance ( I have a few boxes aound with scores in them, but no music is resonating from within the confines of the cardboard--only what I hear in my head when I look at them every few years).

Thirdly, would have to be the listeners. Pat Boone singing all of those heavy metal songs in a more relaxed "elevator music" format a while back still got Led Zepplin, Iron Butterfly, and other stuff "out there" again, even if it was without what was tremed above as the "message"). I have attended recitals where the group performing was about as big as the audience, but at least there was an audience. Without anyone "hearing" the music, is it really complete? I guess this is sort of like the old "tree in the forest" thing, huh?

When I play dinner music for a cocktail party, business meeting, or at another event, I generally play versions of all kinds of music but done up in a "romantic piano" style. Every now and then an attendee will come up to the piano, place a dollar in the sniffter (oh please, oh please!!), and ask me about the piece I am playing. When I say that is a selection that I a based on something by such & such group, composer, religion, etc., it freaks them out. They usually say something like, "I never realised that THEY produced anything like that. Then I causally mention how the Boston Pops Orchestra under Arthur Fiedler introduced the melodies of the Beatles to the "elitist" snobby world of the people who would only listen to classical-type composers. I then play a few melodies in several different "styles" and show how things can be altered. Sometimes the snifter get fed again, sometimes not.

By the way, I would enjoy watching various individuals fighting over whether Bach is better than Debussey; however, I would suggest that we make it not a gun battle to observe tham "go down shooting," but make it sort of like a World Wrestling Federation match--say two out of three falls. It would certainly make music as a hobby more fun for me. What do you think?
 

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Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
 
Yeah. Who is to say one style is really better than another. Having studied atonal music, I lost my interest in classical music completely. Part of the atonal education is that it is the only music that matters. Well, I eventually came around to believing it.

So to break that, for the last 5 years I have been listening to nothing but pop, first 80's music (the music I grew up on and loved like Oingo Boingo, Sting, and Midnight Oil). Then slowly to modern pop (like Shakira, Sarah McLachlan, Dido, etc). And that is where I got my views.

So now I don't believe any music style is inherently better than any other. Some messages are better than others, but most listeners don't care. They want the style/message they want.

To me, the main judge is if it is effective. If the composer or performer achieves their goal. If they communicate their message. And mostly if they interact with the audience. Because I think that is why we listen to music. It touches some place in side of us.

As far as atonal music being more relevant in the future. I heard that a lot when I studied. I doubt it will happen because only trained people understand it. Art education is decreasing rather than increasing.
 

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Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
 
I just can't get away from this!

Also, Beethoven is always used as the example to support atonal music too. But Beethoven himself was breaking artifical rules IMO. And it says something that the Ode to Joy to was intended to be sung in the pubs by everyone. It appealed to everyone. It tried to be pop music, only on a higher intelectual level. I'd say it worked.

To me, atonal music started with Wagner, not Beethoven. Beethoven broke the rules. But Wagner, IMO and you can disagree because this is very subjective, Wagner began writing music with a destructive message. His operas have a malevolance to them.

I was listening to the end of Tristan and Isolde yesterday, and yeah, it is pretty, but it has a very negative message. From Wagner sprung the roots of atonal music, which in my opinion is very negative and malevolant that is revealed in the fact that it is very exclusive. Only trained people can enjoy it. Considering that many of the greatest music minds of the day are spending their time writing music that the general public can not enjoy is very mean IMO.
 

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Posted by Steev (Member # 6805) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by human_2.0:
My 2 favorite composers would have to be Bach and Debussy. I can't see how anyone can say anything bad about either of them.

Vaughan Williams fits in there somewhere as being my most favorite composer too.

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I'm right with you on that. I'm a total sucker for the lush orchestrations. Ralph Vaughan Williams being right at the top of my list.
 

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Posted by Steev (Member # 6805) on :
 
Human_2.0, I'm so glad you posted. Much of my experience is very similar to yours and in large part why I turned into a cynic and a jerk about it all...and went into computers were I have found new ways to be a jerk there too.

I actually started to like some atonal music but only if it was part of a larger tonal structure that had a point to it. When I write music I'm setting out to tell a story, express a thought or feeling, present a message. It's not supposed to be a grandiose work set aside for the scrutiny of the learned to intellectualize the mechanical intricacies of composition, or as the professors would claim "to understand". It's music and emotion and soul and spirit. Rules are guidelines of style. Style is the tool to portray the intended message. To be emotionally involved with music is to understand the message. To not understand the message makes music irrelevant.

I'm reminded of the English literature teachers in school, whom OSC continues to take issue with, who are caught up in the words and completely miss the point of story.


Boogashaga, your example of the cocktail party romantic music is a great one. And it's a lot of what really interests me about the effectiveness of choosing the right style to portray the message of what the composer or arranger intends to send across. I grew up on the "elevator" music of the 60's, 70's and earlier 80's and was very interested in making comparisons of the "elevator" versions to the originals. (Much to the terror of my peers.) To compare the Beatles' "Norwegian Wood" to a version rendered with a lush orchestral arrangement in a 5/4-meter blew me away. Despite what my pears felt, I felt they were both valid and powerful versions to be taken seriously.

As for which is better? I will never take part in such an argument but to recommend that if you want to create something new and different then buck the system of defined rules. To know and understand the rules is one thing. To be a slave to them is another.
 

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Posted by boogashaga (Member # 8881) on :
 
Steev, you BOZO, you didn't say whether or not you liked the wrestling angle. I'm upset!
 

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Posted by Steev (Member # 6805) on :
 
I think it's a great idea. It would show just how ridiculous it is. And in my world ridiculous things are funny unless they are pathetic and then they're just sad.



 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
Great thread everybody!

I want to rspond on a couple different levels, first off to quote Booogashaga:
_____________________________________________
By the way, I would enjoy watching various individuals fighting over whether Bach is better than Debussey; however, I would suggest that we make it not a gun battle to observe tham "go down shooting," but make it sort of like a World Wrestling Federation match--say two out of three falls. It would certainly make music as a hobby more fun for me. What do you think?
________________________________________________

this is very apt indeed boog

Onto Human, who is really hitting the effectiveness angle over the head, and I like it.
I agree that music must be effective, so I want to suggest this possible future, someone in the near future, or in the very recent past has been or will be working on his masterworks in Atonal composition. It is entirely possible, even likely, that a genius of the caliber of the beethovens, bachs and mozarts is living in a western or eastern country today, tirelessly producing the great literature of our age in music. There might be another schubert out there somewhere, sitting for endless periods at a writing desk with a keyboard, or at a computer producing thousands of inspired works, only time will reveal this person to us.

Your mention of Wagner gets me all riled up, I have always had a problem with Wagner, on many levels. Beethoven's genius and his quantum leap in style set the stage for Wagner to use, abuse personally and zealously exploit romantic music until it was a dry and dusty well. HE did this indescriminately and with fervor, to little good effect IMO. He was the sell-out rockstar of his era, and he was not at all unwilling to exploit anything and anyone to be recognized, he was the music Stalin IMO, rather than actually being liked, he simply retired all the competition early.

Wagner has less and less value in the repertoire today because his music, though incredibly powerful and forceful, is empty and meaningless in comparison with his contemporaries, who were still shy about scoring symphonies for a Black powder Canon in the percussion section.

But nevertheless his genius in his genre is obvious, no matter how exploitive, he pushed music ahead in his lifetime, and that movement has become painful for alot of very brilliant people like you human.

As to steev's mention of classicized arrangements of popular work, well this has been going on for hundreds of years, (remember that Beethoven's ode to joy found its genisis not with Beethoven, but as a folk song) and it will continue indefinetly. This IMO, is neither here nor there, because melodies are the same all over. IT can be rather easy for a classical group to "trick" an audience into liking "norwegian wood," by classicising it, because "Norwegian Wood" is one of the great songs produced in the 20th century, anyone would respond positively to such a wonderful piece of music, and perhaps an orchestral arrangement simply puts that work in a form which is appreciated for its connection with some people's favorite artists.

Alot of people who do classicised arrangments do it I think as a way of "tricking people," into liking their style of music, but as Shoenberg insisted in the early 20th century, when you transcribe any work, even if the composer transcribes it himself, it becomes a NEW peice of music, and has new properties. Thus to say that people who like the beatles in orchestral arrangements are snooty or elitist is unfair, because those people enjoy what the work has become, and might not have appreciated the same work in a different style.
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Quoting Steev:As for which is better? I will never take part in such an argument but to recommend that if you want to create something new and different then buck the system of defined rules. To know and understand the rules is one thing. To be a slave to them is another.
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You are IMO perpetuating a classic non-argument against well defined genres. Here is what I mean, this is a non argument because there ARE NO RULES!
All, I mean ALL!!!! Great music defies some expectation in the ear of the listener and transcends form. Despite what your perception my be, Bach Mozart and Beethoven never worked in a set of rules, but academics constructed rules based on their works, so that they could be imitated. But these rules are artificial in the way that an historical film is artificial, it is only a representation of events, it is a reverse engineering of the musical process.

NO_ONE works by a strict set of rules, and no-one ever has. Another great example is Shakespeare, he wrote 14 line sonnets with a two line cap and two sets of six verses in the body, so his sonnets went ussually 6-6-2. THis is a rule in writing shakespearian sonnets, but Shakespeare was the first to do it this way, and he had no rulebook. HE wrote what worked best, and his consistent use of this system allowed him to seek an incredible range of interesting results.

Your bucking the rules is not a novel or IMO a perticularly useful aforism, because all great artists always do this. There are no "rules," only your perception or other's foolish misrepresentations are limits on your creativity. But, hey your absolutely entitled to see this your way, its not an attack, but at the same time I feel really strongly aboutwhat you said, and I wonder if you ever thought about it my way, because I used to think what you wrote almost exactly, until I realized it is a non-argument, about a set of laws that aren't there
 

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Posted by Steev (Member # 6805) on :
 
Right. I see what your saying and I believe that I'm in the process of making that transition in my life. I just have to come to terms with the old aphorism as I've discovered it recently. Like I said earlier in this thread. Most of what I have to get over is myself.

And to everyone here: You are all awesome!

I haven't been able to really deal with this at all for that last 10 years. This is the first time I've been on a forum, let alone in person, where I can talk with people that I can actually relate to.
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
Thanks, and keep up thinking about this stuff, this has made me consider what other people beleive about what I do, and what I beleive about what they do, its good to keep your orientations fluid (the enemy's gate is down?)
 

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Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
 
Me too.

The only rule I think there is is communicating, interacting with the audience. That is what every composer does who is successful (yeah, even Wagner... and I agree he was a rat, probably my least liked composer, even though I agree he was a genius too).

I just pulled out my Charles Burkhart anthology. Haven't cracked this thing open for 5 years...

I think that the ultimate broken rule was Debussy's La cathedrale engloutie (Sunken Cathedral) from Preludes, Book I. Is there any other song with more in-your-face parallel 5ths? Yet it works because the 5ths actually convey the message of a sunken cathedral... gives me chills just thinking about it. Or maybe it is because it is cold and I'm leaning on the portable heater .

If this is a wrestling match, that is my first move for Debussy.

Oh, and about Dvorak. He is good too. I've only listened to his 9th symphony and Serenade for Strings though (but I've listened to them both probably 1000 times). I have a hard time comparing him with Bach. The 9th symphony was suppose to be about America and I think it was very effective. Well, I don't know much of the history or how it was accepted. But I have a warm place in me because it was written for America, in a way the first classical song about my country.

Oh, and I totally relate to OSC's opinion of literature professors. I am still friends with my old music professors. They are very skilled and effective at what they do. I just don't think it is worth doing.

As far as writing an atonal piece for the masses. Just go to a horror movie! Really though, I don't think it can be done because even if you wrote a very consonant atonal work (used nothing but major and minor chords and scales) it lacks the familiarity that everyone has with I-IV-V-I. The 2 worlds of pop and intelectual music has never been farther apart. I just don't see them coming together.

I would say that successful comtemporary composers who appeal to the masses include Philip Glass, John Adams, and John Cage.

Anyone heard Morro Lasso by Gesualdo? I can't believe that song was written in the 16th century. I think he was way ahead of his time and that we still haven't plumbed some of the stuff he wrote in Morro Lasso.
 

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Posted by Steev (Member # 6805) on :
 
One of my favorite pieces of music that had extended atonal passages was the soundtrack to Close Encounters of the Third Kind. I was a strange kid in 1977. I was only 8 years old and I would listen to that record over and over and over.
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
Human, as for your doubts on the atonal masterpiece, you -may- be right, but you might be completely wrong. All that will be required is the perspective of time. This is like asking bach what he thinks of debussy the first time he listened to anything by Debussy (of course we will never know what he might say). But my point is that as we become more removed and more atuned to the atonal structure it WILL become more well known, and might or might not be revolutionized by some future genius.

As to parallel fifths, this is a back and forth argument, paralells were used extensively in pre renessaince music, but they are inherently problematic because the obscure the tonic/dominant relationships and weaken the tonality of a peice. However there is such a thing, even in tonal music, as a compositional direct fifth, even a rare parallel is possible in the right circumstance. Atonality (or we should refer to it as non-tonality because atonal is reactionary...w/e), does not have this problem because tonic dominant relationships are not at issue in the same vital way.

Still though, there are absolute standards in music. Is there a reason why pentatonic scales came into use independently on every continent? There probably is. As for diatonic music, the equal system of temprament is ALREADY a violation of the natural harmonic series of overtones, so what is to be said for this system built on something of a foundation which is already false in some ways. At the same time, just tuning is a betrayal of the potential in diatonic music of being so incredibly versatile and changing. Equal temprament is a leap forward in thinking about music, but it is also a small, nagging little inconsistency in tonal music.
 

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Posted by boogashaga (Member # 8881) on :
 
Hey you music bozos!--Remember that parallel fifths were "prohibited" in first year music thoery class. If you passed that course, you have official Boogashaga authorization to utilize them, understood? Just don't go over the wall with them, unless (of course) you have a "reason" for so doing, which YOU as the artist will decide.
 

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Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Orincoro:
At the same time, just tuning is a betrayal of the potential in diatonic music of being so incredibly versatile and changing. Equal temprament is a leap forward in thinking about music, but it is also a small, nagging little inconsistency in tonal music.

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Have you gone to any youth concerts lately? Tuning is not overrated...
 

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Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by boogashaga:
Hey you music bozos!--Remember that parallel fifths were "prohibited" in first year music thoery class. If you passed that course, you have official Boogashaga authorization to utilize them, understood? Just don't go over the wall with them, unless (of course) you have a "reason" for so doing, which YOU as the artist will decide.

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Can you represent your name in music notation, and use it as the theme for a fugue performed by a kazoo quartet? If not, you do not have permission to allow others to break the parallel perfects rule.
 

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Posted by Steev (Member # 6805) on :
 


The roll-eyes icon just isn't big enough for what I'm feeling right now.
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
I know PP5ths are prohibited, but I am in 3rd year music, so I get the seal of approval, and the go ahead to break alot of different rules.
 

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Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
 


Well, I actually find that causual breaking of the rule actually sounds bad in my ears, so even though I went one year into grad school, I still think the PP rule is worth obeying. But I'm not writing music currently, it isn't like I've got much to say. This forum has actually gotten me to fire up my music apps several times and go and pound on the piano. I'm even thinking about writing music again.

My problem is that I've picked up other hobbies and now they all compete. So I don't know how I'll fit in time to write much music.
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by human_2.0:

quote:

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Originally posted by Orincoro:
At the same time, just tuning is a betrayal of the potential in diatonic music of being so incredibly versatile and changing. Equal temprament is a leap forward in thinking about music, but it is also a small, nagging little inconsistency in tonal music.

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Have you gone to any youth concerts lately? Tuning is not overrated...

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Your right, but our terminology got mangled. JUST tuning as I use it refers to the system of tuning that follows the natural series of overtones. There's lots of different jargon for this stuff, what do you use?
 

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Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
 
I knew what you meant. I was just being funny.

I don't know what I think about tuning. I believe I am so use to equal temprament that I can't live without it. But when I was a senior/1st year grad (can't remember) I did some experiments in music history on a keyboad to see what the effects were like and I think I liked the overtone way of tuning more. I even went and learned which equal tempered notes were wrong... can't remember any of it now though.
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
Their ALL wrong. The third too wide, the 5th too narrow, i really notice it these days, playing alot of keyboard. My musicianship classes force me to sing lines in counterpoint against the keyboard, you REALLY start to notice the adjustments you make in equal temprament this way. Its actually quite jarring to sing a scale up to la or le correctly, then play the flat sounding note on the keyboard, it really is a big difference between a just sixth and an equal tempered sixth
 

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Posted by Unmaker (Member # 1641) on :
 
First, Steev, I really like your stuff.

All this discussion has made me think about how much our perception of what sounds good, what constitutes beautiful music, has changed over time. Think of how different the modal harmonies and mensuration of the Middle Ages and early Renaissance are from the keys, scales and measures of later times. In the Renaissance, composers believed the fourth to be a stable, consonant interval, while thirds and sixths were seen as dissonances— totally opposite our present view. Listening to Guillaume Du Fay or Josquin des Prez is a VERY different experience than enjoying Bach, Beethoven or Debussy.
 

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Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
 
And here is an interesting tidbit. I heard on the radio last week that because symphony orchestras are bigger and perform in larger places, symphonies changed. They are sharper, slower, and louder. I can't remember if the louder one is right anyway.

So basically, when Beethoven's 9th symphony was performed the first time, it was faster and lower in pitch than we hear it today.

Not that this is really significant, but it shows how things change in ways that we wouldn't even think about. That is to say, that the surounding enviroment can't be ignored in music.

And I would say social environment makes a difference too. Operas were the "movies" of older generations who were middle class, but now Operas are reserved for the high class. Of course the definition of middle class has changed over the years, but I think my idea still works.
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
Yes Human, absolutely its impossible to know what anything REALLY sounded like in past ages. I think your right that stuff is a bit slower and a bit higher. Some stuff is just natural evolution in the technology we used ie: the steel piano harp allows for a bigger fuller brighter sound, which can now be pitched slightly Higher.

I notice the difference in alot of other ways from what I read in historical accounts. For instance, our concert venues are now heat controlled, whereas the 9th symphony was first performed in a tiny and freezing hall. The effect is obvious, a big hall flattens out the pitch a little bit, so we compensate by ratcheting it up just a bit, plus the heat control allows us to tune more precisely to fit our comfort and keep our instruments tuned.

Its absolutely fascinating to me, and I see it as a -bit- silly when modern composers scream about our need to abandon traditional forms of expression, or some "highbrow" art crowd poopoos any departure from that tradition. The truth is as always in the middle of the two. We can have the best of any world if we work hard enough at it. I think if a better cello comes along, Beethoven would be ok with you using that one instead, he was not much of a traditionalist himself!


Ps. Looks like this thread has been abandoned by the greater community, oh well whats new?
 

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Posted by Steev (Member # 6805) on :
 
Unmaker,

Thank you.
 

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Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
 
Steev, I liked your stuff too.

And David, I listened to "Murex Tapestries Trampled Underfoot" and I have to wonder if that melody is the 1st Delphic Hymn. I'm positive it is because I set it to music once too...
 

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Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Orincoro:
Its absolutely fascinating to me, and I see it as a -bit- silly when modern composers scream about our need to abandon traditional forms of expression, or some "highbrow" art crowd poopoos any departure from that tradition.

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quote:

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Human, you must have been listening to a lot of Stravinsky in your senior year, the end of mov three is kind of "stravinskyesk" I suppose. Also your harmonic texture has a little bit of stravinsky and George Antheil sounding stuff going on. I like it.

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In my senior conducting class we had to do Dumbarton Oaks by Stravinsky. And I've always like Rite of Spring. Really though, it is all 12 tone. sorta.... 12 tone with my own rules....

Oh, and I wrote that 3rd movement in my junior year. I haven't digitized my senior or 1st year grad compositions. They were both atonal and I never did like them much.

Actually, the last part of the 3rd mvt has more to do with Debussy's La Mer as I shamelessly used a few things from it (really, very few... few few few...).

quote:

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And you can imagine the appeal that comes from work they care about so much. I wonder if I have a right to feel insulted by it. Probably not.

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quote:

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And David, I listened to "Murex Tapestries Trampled Underfoot" and I have to wonder if that melody is the 1st Delphic Hymn. I'm positive it is because I set it to music once too...

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quote:

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David, in "Under the Bodhi Tree (Buddha Versus Mara)" you have a planged guitar. How did you do that in GarageBand?

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quote:

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I used the "Steel String Acoustic" midi instrument, played the measure on my keyboard, selected all the notes and changed their velocity to 125 (the highest setting). Cool sound, eh?

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I like flange...
 

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Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Orincoro:
Anybody ever listen to the long string instrument. The inventor came to talk in front of one of my music classes today.

Its an instrument with 25 meter long strings that are all tuned to just harmonics, and her peices are all written as fractions. She played it by walking back and forth and dragginger the strings inbetween her finers, or running her hands along them, or lifting them. Its insane sounding, very cool.

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Never heard of it.
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
I don't think I've ever seen human post this much in one thread, let alone this many times so quickly. Music is obviously his muse

I was going to post here but then it got all technical and scared me away. I play the sax, and fiddle around with the violin (hahahhah!) and the bagpipe chanter every now and then when I have free time, but never seriously. I've played the sax since 5th grade, so, for 11 years now, and still pull it out every now and then just to make sure I still can.

I try to work on my own music but just don't really have the ear for it. I've been trying to get around to writing a musical for years now, and actually made some headway on it earlier this year. Sadly, I can't really write music though. I got some help, as Raia and human 2.0 can attest to, but still stalled myself out. Plus I think I suck at coming up with melodies in general, to say nothing of the words in the songs.

I was always hoping the plot would make up for any musical shortcomings. I'm a much better script writer than music writer. If I ever make any progress on it, I'll let you all in on it someday. I can only hope.
 

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Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
 
Human, did you mean "planged" or "flanged"? You can add flange to guitars easily. You select the instrument (double clicking on the track) and under "details" you'll see "effects". There you can add chorus, flanger, etc.

With "planged" I thought you meant the plangent or plucked sound of the acoustic.
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
Lyrhawn, go down to your local university bookstore and take a look at some of the music theory literature. It would be really daunting for you, but if you have a mind to get some of this stuff, and a few beats a day to practice at a keyboard and write a few things, check out Walter Piston's Harmony, its the gold standard in undergrad diatonic theory, very very clear and precise book. You might also benefit from a book on performance with an emphasis on learning rythms. Sadly it just takes alot of banging your head against the keyboard for a couple of years till things start to click for you... ITs taken me two years of undergrad theory to feel confident in writing for a small ensemble! Good luck, I can always give you more resources if you have an interest.
 

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Posted by boogashaga (Member # 8881) on :
 
Lyrhawn might benefit from learning more of a "chordal" method rather than Piston, especially if a Broadway-type musical is the endeavor. When Mel Brooks wrote the songs for "The Producers," he didn't utilize much theory. He had, basically, just sort of lead sheets and scribbled ideas. Melody & chords (as in a lead sheet), would be a great way to get the song ideas down in a written format. This way, the material doesn't fade into oblivion. This way, you can come back to the stuff later and work with it.

Later, after everything has more or less "gelled" into shape and the musical looks sort of like its complete, the actual "theory" can be used for the orchestrations & arrangements.

I enjoy doing things like roadshows and musicals. They are always fun for me. It can be a challenge sometimes to try to get that special song to tie two scenes together or to emphasize the dialogue that has just taken place.

Good luck and keep us informed!
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
Yeah, you could do a musical that way, I was more interested in his learning the later part of the process as well, actually getting to take care of the details.

There have incidentally been many problems with composers of late who compose on sythesizers/ computers/ whatever, then having their work arranged by proffessionals. These professionals can then claim primacy over the work they helped produced upon the composer's death. There have been a few famous cases here in California, it just came up in one of my history classes last week, so it occured to me as a reason to stay in touch with the whole process too.
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
That's a whole heck of a lot more work than I was ever planning to do, but I suppose I'll just have to dig in and do it at some point. Mostly now whenever I think of a melody to go along with lyrics I've writen I record myself singing it just to get it down, then get help transcribing it into notation later.

I was always hoping to focus more on the writing of the story while letting someone else get into the guts of the music after I'd given them the basics of what I wanted with each song. It'd hard to keep a train of thought musically when I tend to shelve it for weeks at a time before returning to it.
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
There's no cure for that I'm afraid. And I feel for you, not everyone can be as self indulgently committed to pointless composing as a student without a job!!

Still, more and more I feel that the theory and history side of my studies prepares me in a big way for understanding the music I play, and thus understanding and helping facilitate the music I write. It can be basic stuff like form, "rules" of harmony, knowledge about what works in other pieces in terms of rythm, ensemble, content and yes, even story too.

I just finished a GRUELING ten page paper on California Minimalism in the work of Terry Riley. Specifically on a piece he did for NASA which my chorus performed here with the Kronos Quartet last quarter. I would never ever have been prepared to understand this peice when I performed it, but with 6 more months of perspective and experience gained, I was able to sift through the minutae of the piece and come up with -hopefully- relevant material for my professor. Its a tough proposition to say that the only way you can get what you want is to devote yourself to it exclusively for as long as it takes, but I am afraid that if I don't, I never will achieve anything. As it is I wonder if I have what "it takes" as they say. I guess I'll be letting you know.
 

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Posted by boogashaga (Member # 8881) on :
 
Lyrhawn--Everytime I do something like creating songs for a musical/roadshow/pop singer, etc., I use the "lead sheet style" of doing it. If you can record yourself singing the stuff, you are already ahead of the game since you have a way to "save" what you have in mind for a particular number. Go for it!

Orincoro--When you write that you " . . . wonder if (you) have what 'it takes,' as they say . . . ," what exactly are you refering to, sir? Is this refering to your ability to analyze material? Does it mean as a composer? Does it call into question your composing? When you wrote that line, you completely lost me.

It appears to me that you ALREADY have "it." You are able to communicate in a written format (and in quite an understandable manner, I might add) your feelings, thoughts, and methods of study. I just don't quite catch your drift here, that is all. Can you help me to understand what you mean?

Have a great Sunday. I'm off to my three hour block.
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
"IT"

Oh it. How I strive for it. I would give myself over to "it." What is it? I am not sure.

"IT" is a sparkling shiney ideal, a goal perhaps, a state of higher being.

I think it is something like what I see in the people I most admire in music. Maybe, it for me is the ability to fully express my thoughts in words and music. It is also the ability to perform in such a way as to feel I am not awfully lacking in some undefined way.

Sometimes on stage or in class or recital listening to someone read my words or play my piece, I feel it. But I would like to be constantly basking in the soft ambient glow of "it."

I know I don't have it when I can't answer a question I know I should. Sing line I ought to be able to sing, or commit my thoughts as accurately as I want to onto a score or a line of text. Well, "it" is something I know is probably a figment of my own drowning subconcious, a carrot dangling in front of my inner mamallian brain telling me "provide for yourself" "beat the other guy" "get the girl" etc. But where I am concerned with more ambiguous goals. I can't be clear on "it" because its not very clear to me either.
 

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Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by David Bowles:
Human, did you mean "planged" or "flanged"? You can add flange to guitars easily. You select the instrument (double clicking on the track) and under "details" you'll see "effects". There you can add chorus, flanger, etc.

With "planged" I thought you meant the plangent or plucked sound of the acoustic.

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Flanged. Phlanged. Whatever
 

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Posted by Steev (Member # 6805) on :
 
*bump*

I'd hate to see this thread die.
 

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Posted by boogashaga (Member # 8881) on :
 
The daughter of a friend wanted me to do a special arrangement of a hymn for a choir that she was soon to become the director of. I came up with what I thought was a great arrangement, utilizing all of the vocal ranges that she explained these singers had. She told me that they all read music, there are very high sopranos and tenors, solid altos, and very deep basses. They numbered about 24 in the choir and all were very strong and powerfull singers also. In short, it was a sort of "dream" group to write for. Today, she told me that she had taken 3 weeks to teach them a simple Xmas song and not to worry about the arrangement anymore.

Oh well.
 

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Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
 
What was the arrangement of? At least you could share it with us.
 

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Posted by boogashaga (Member # 8881) on :
 
Human--The arrangement was made of "I Need Thee Every Hour," at the specific request of the Choir Director. I started out with a minor key (Em) and utilized a sequence for the introduction that became the unifying motive for the whole selection. I put the basses down on a low E (below the staff). The altos started the "melody," such as it is. The sopranos entered 4 bars later. I sort of basically rewrote the entire hymn for the first two verses. I have lots of alternate harmonies and mixed them with semi-traditional cadences.

The first verse "sort of" follows what the "melody" in the original hymn is like. I mean that you can tell where it came from (sort of). The end of the first verse somehow modulates to D minor. The second verse is much more "free-form" and does not conform to the hymn at all. I drift between chords of Dm, Em, Dm, and C. The "chorus" portion of verse two contains a spread out cluster formation that I enjoy using (I know that this seems to be a contradiction, but i am not sure just how else to describe it). The third verse is more familiar as the main melody is actually sung--although by the bass section, very low (key of C). The upper voices are doing rhythmic patterns against the melody. After the hymn cadences at the end, I have placed a tag of the last phrase to end the arrangement. The basses are on a low C (below the staff), the tenors are on an E, and the altos and sopranos are together on (piano) middle C to round out the C major chord. While they are sustaining this final chord, the accompaniment is playing the motive/sequence that I mentioned earlier.

At this point, i don't know what I am going to do with the arrangement. It is not copied onto any chorus manuscipt yet to xerox for parts, so I just have my personal "junk" score that I worked on. A member of my Ward Choir suggested that i do it up "pretty" and send it to the So Cal Mormon Choir
 

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Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
 
That sounds like something my hubby would love! He's a musician (majored in Trombone Performance, but now just performs on the side) and he's always arranging hymns in different ways - has kind of a "weird" style, although I love it.

But it definitely wouldn't work for our Ward Choir. *sigh* You ought to put it up at one of those sites that host that sort of thing ... unless you actually want to SELL it, of course.
 

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Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
 
Cool. I did a weird style Oh My Father. At one point I had a section based on the melody, but in the whole-tone scale. And the climax had a bunch of arpegiated chords that changed keys every chord. And the second to last verse had an overly legato melody (in proper key) with a sharp 4th to 5th then minor 6th to 5th alternating background eigth note trill (can't think of a better word for it). The last verse was the regular hymn from the book at the insistance of my mom, the pianist... I performed it at a ward talent show and not a single person commented on it.

But they complimented my brother and me for a Janice Knapp Perry duet we sang at the same show... Don't know what that means...
 

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Posted by boogashaga (Member # 8881) on :
 
JennaDean--I majored in trombone performance also--I feel sorry for your husband (and you too I guess). I don't play anymore either. Last time I played the horn was at a Ward talent show several years ago where I played 76 Trombones (on one trombone, no less--I used to be VERY good, you see!).
 

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Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
 
76 Trombones on one trombone! Wow!!!

Yeah, you know what you do when a trombone player rings your doorbell, don't you?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Pay him for the pizza.

Hubby still gets to play in a local wind ensemble, and uses his music skills directing choirs and arranging hymns, but his day job is Computer Geek.
 

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Posted by boogashaga (Member # 8881) on :
 
Do you know what the LEAST utilized sentence in the entire English language is?


Does that new Porche over there belong to the trombone player?

Merry Xmas.
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
Bump-


I had to let steev know I was all tuckered out after all the great stuff a few weeks ago.

Boogashaga: What instrument do you play again smarty pants? I'm a classical Guitarist btw
 

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Posted by boogashaga (Member # 8881) on :
 
Orincoro--I am one of those disgusting types who have the ability/skill to play many different instruments. I also had those classes back in college to learn most of the others. My main instruments would be the trombone and the piano. But I just got a cheap plastic harmonica at a Xmas dinner last evening and it made me want to go and dig out my real harmonica and see if I could still do stuff on it; I still could!
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
Excellent Boogashaga, if I were ever to give up my guitar or piano, I would die silent spiritual death
 

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Posted by boogashaga (Member # 8881) on :
 
Orincoro--I did some work with the guitar. I kind of got into it seriously when a freshman at college. It was too far to the practise rooms in the music bldg. The guy just down the hall in the dorms had a truly great classical guitar that was given to him while he was a missionary for the "Mormon" church overseas somewhere. All that he used it for was for stuff like "Kum Bah Yah," & etc. He would let me play it almost whenever I wanted. When I went on a mission for the "Mormon" church myself later, I always seemed to be where there were guitars present. Reading the music was easy as I was already a musician (I have never got around to learning that "guitar style" of notating music--maybe in the future). My fingers just never got awfully good at doing some of the "easy" classical solos out there. I believe that to get any better than I was that I would have to start doing a bunch of finger drills to limber them up and get them used to the fretboard.

When I started playing the bass guitar, it was an easy switch. Playing the trombone and the piano, I was already familiar with the bass clef. Every now & then, I still find some bass guitar parts written in the treble clef. When I encounter them, it makes me work & think a tad more, but I can still handle them.

Have a great New Year's celebration!
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
The real "Issue" I think with classical guitarists is a huge one.

We're so Freakin LAZY.

Guitarists are some of the worst musicians out there in large part. It has alot to do I think with the culture, ie, because every idiot can play Kum Bah Yah etc, everyone else assumes that if your a guitarist, that's what you "do." I have no end of requests for "Blackbird" and "Stairway," even among smart music students who would shreik with horror at the mention of "Heart and Soul" or some such garbage for piano. But with guitar its ok because "I know a few chords" is such a common saying!

That convinces most people that Guitar is the realm of the laidback stoner or the churchcamp counselor and little else. For those that take it a bit more seriously and are interested in the historical liuterature of the guitar, There are the deadly "Tabs".

tabs are fine for picking up a beatles song or learning a coldplay lick, but STAY AWAY all ye who enter upon music with any need of clarity, or proffessionalism or taste of any sort.

Then there is actual music notation, most of which for the guitar is bewilderingly dense, forboding, mysterious and beautifully gothic in likeness. This is my realm. but what I find is that most of the actual literature suffers from the same creative braindedness that the "Kum bah yah" crowd enjoys. That is, most of the great works are little more than exercises. Take Fernando Sor, one of my teachers once called him, a "First Rate, Third Rate composer." Its really true, no-one I think in the surviving romantic period literature is more obvious, by the numbers, predictable as sor, and the very best composers for guitar have learned all of his mistakes by rote.

Part of this is the difficulty of scoring improvisational material like flamenco, which is one of the great schools of classical guitar. In Flamenco, the guitarist is as much responsible for the music as the composer, probably more so. Piano music is notoriously clear and satisfyingly uniform in performance, (relatively. You could pick a huge bone with me about how "uniform" performance is not, but in comparison with guitar it really is.) but guitarists are lazy, pigheaded and rebellious little buggers, and we do what we like with the music we play, and there is very little sense of responsibility to the composer/songwriter given by most guitarists.

Well I try. There is no getting around the fact that just overcoming the technical challenges of even the early guitar literature is enough to stop most guitarists from getting to the really interesting stuff, and I am currently trying to earn my chops playing through the middle of the stack with the more challenging Sor and Giuliani, Dowland and the easy Bach stuff and I play in a guitar quartet. (Most of Guitar Quartet literature is either new music or bach arrangements).

So beware all you Kum bah Yahnikans! Guitar is tough, especially since we're all so darn lazy!
 

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Posted by boogashaga (Member # 8881) on :
 
Hey Orincoro--You can always play thetheme music to "Zorro," right? There's not much out there for trombone, either. I played part of a horn concerto and bassoon concerto for my recital. Oh well, there's always Tommy Dorsey.
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
I should have played the Clarinet, nobody goes up to a Clarinetist and goes: Do you know rhapsody in Blue????
 

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Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
 
You guys can't let this thread die! I'm learning so much from reading your posts.

Can anyone tell me what a submediant note is?
 

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Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
 
http://www.teoria.com/reference/scales/08.htm

I was going to write them but realized I forgot (wow, it has been long).

I play Clarinet and I've been asked "Do you know rhapsody in Blue."
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
I want to learn how to play Classical Gas on the guitar.

Where does that rank on the laziness scale?
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
Very Very high. Especially if you read learn it with tabs.


Sorry DB, I was totally wiped after all the fiery debate earlier in the thread. I might have some things to talk about though.

Human, I have been working this month on a Bb Clarinet duet, which will (maybe) go as a part of my Guitar Quartet and Violin ensemble peice this quarter. Have you ever encountered an effective method of blending guitar with Clarinet or violin with Clarinet? This is a challenge I am interested in exploring. I think that a guitar quartet (3 six string and 1 seven string guitars) could be balanced properly with one clarinet, or perhaps all the istruments could be brought into a very well defined high counterpoint passage so that the effect is not lost under the blaring Clarinets?

Any tips on ensemble issues with the Clarinet? Any tips about writing for clarinet? (other than transposing, I got that one already).
 

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Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
 
"Have you ever encountered an effective method of blending guitar with Clarinet or violin with Clarinet ... perhaps all the instruments could be brought into a very well defined high counterpoint passage so that the effect is not lost under the blaring Clarinets?"

Blaring?... You must have heard some bad clarinetists! Ok, honestly, I'm not too fond of the clarinet myself (which is really ironic that I play it, don't ask me, I don't know how I got here).

Anyway, to answer your question. I'm not sure how to answer really. It depends on what you want. I think you want like a classical sound. That should be fairly easy. I've heard a guitar with tape, that is recorded "sound effects" sort of thing and it went off well. You have to pick qualities in each instrument that compliment the other.

Plucked strings go well with staccato clarinet. Clarinet trill would go with violin trill and I'm not sure how a guitar would compliment that. Clarinet and violin can both do long sustained notes that can increase in intensity. I'm not sure how a guitar would compliment that. Violin can play multiple notes at the same time, which has a very different effect than a guitar chord, and the clarinet is odd one out there. All 3 can do arpeggios. Etc.

"Any tips on ensemble issues with the Clarinet? Any tips about writing for clarinet? (other than transposing, I got that one already)"

I can't think about any ensemble issues. Except it depends on the player. I knew a clarinetist who could do anything. But he was rare...

Writing for clarinet? Be careful of the "break". In the key of B-flat (the key of the clarinet), the break occurs between B-flat and B-natural above middle C. Inexperienced players have hell with the break. Don't cross it lightheartedly (G A B-flat B C D and back down over and over--the clarinetist will likely wap you over the head with his clarinet). It is possible to have a B-flat B-natural or trill, there are special keys for that. Everything else is fine.

But don't be afraid of the break, crossing the break is well practiced precisely because it is difficult. Just know that by crossing it often, you are introducing potential performance mistakes with less skilled players.

Other tips? Clarinet has a huge range, almost 4 for really good players (in key of B-flat: from E below middle c to c three octaves above middle c). Use the low register to your advantage. It sounds very gorgeous. The clarinet range is comparable to the cello, and I've often played cello parts of trio's/quartets/solos. The upper register can be blaring, especially the very high notes. But they can be pleasant.

Clarinets can make huge leaps. One of my funnest exercises was to play major 7ths up (f-flat, e-flat, d, c-sharp, b-sharp). That one is actually really hard, but e to e to e to e is a lot easier. In fact, I think it is easier to go from the bottom note up 3 octaves to the c 2 octaves above middle than it is to cross the break, it is that easy.
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
Perhaps a sustained Low melody in the clarinet part, with more Pizzacoto or plain stoccato high guitar melodies? Either that or a more pearcing and faster Clarinet part in a higher range, over fuller guitar textures like Boroquish Bass progressions? Hmmm.

I have been warned against combining Clarinet with strings, but I would really like this to work, I will have to do some serious considering.
 

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Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
 
I wrote a song with a low "petal" (like what they do on the organ in Baroque music a lot) clarinet note with a piano above it plaing melody. I thought it would work, and it didn't. So no matter what you do, it helps to 1) not put a ton of time into something you are unsure how it will sound and 2) get someone to play something you are not sure how it will sound before you put a lot of time into it and cement the music.

I've learned with my work in animation that when you invest a lot of time in something, if it turns out poorly, you tend not to care because you HAVE to care because otherwise you wasted all your time, and you are proud you got at least what you got. But because it was poor, that other people treat it badly and it makes you really bitter. So moral is don't invest a lot of time in something you aren't sure is quality, otherwise the payoff will hurt you.

Do what you need to do to make sure the quality is good enough. Often that means making core changes, like, not writing for clarinet and guitar. For example, in my animation work, it meant I had to quit trying to make certain types of animations until I had done other work to prepare me more so that I didn't have to invest as much time as when I first started.
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
This is Solid advice once again Human. It speaks to me on a very fundamental level.

I actually tend to have a problem in this regard as many do. When I was in Highschool, (get ready for a little arrogance, sorry), I used to write English essays that got used as examples in class most of the time because they were so much better than the grade level. This however, has changed, and though my writing is still usually better than other students, my ideas are less frequently extraordinary.

In music I CAME IN under the grade level, and spend a good deal of my time trying to keep up. It was different in a Highschool where the general expectations put me easily in a top position intellectually, because now I am at a College where everybody had that experience, and some are smarter. (Ok not EVERYBODY, but many more).

I have as a result taken a more liberal attitude towards the fruit of my labor, I am more likely to Completely rewrite something that sucks, and whenever I do, without fail, I recieve a better grade for the work than I feel I deserve.

This is a great reminder about the difference between what is important to you and what is important to everybody else. Thanks!
 

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Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
 
"I have as a result taken a more liberal attitude towards the fruit of my labor, I am more likely to Completely rewrite something that sucks, and whenever I do, without fail, I recieve a better grade for the work than I feel I deserve."

I heard that is the way to do anything really well, whether it be music, school papers, etc. Write it once. Throw it away then re-write it. The second copy will be much better.

Wish we all had time for that though. I usually just go with quantity. Write enough things and eventually they start getting better....
 

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Posted by Steev (Member # 6805) on :
 
I wonder. Most of my compositions are always in a constant state of revision. I don't release them until I'm happy with them and I'm rarely happy with them. I’ve got tones lying around that I can’t finish. Would scraping them and rewriting them really help? So do you usually throw out the musical ideas or do you take the old ones and reuse them?
 

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Posted by boogashaga (Member # 8881) on :
 
Steev--Don't throw nuttin' away!! I have a couple of boxes with all kinds of stuff: scraps of paper with staves scribbled on them to full sheets of orchestra-staved ms. I occasionally use stuff from the boxes. Save it all!!
 

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Posted by Steev (Member # 6805) on :
 
Regarding OSC's latest article about "academic" music:

OSC really hit it home for me. He outlined much of what caused my disenchantment with my academic carrier in music. I just happen to appreciate atonal music but I'm not inspired by it. I have loads of tonal music in me that will eventually see the light of day.

Thank you OSC, you've encouraged me to give it another go.
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Steev:
I wonder. Most of my compositions are always in a constant state of revision. I don't release them until I'm happy with them and I'm rarely happy with them. I’ve got tones lying around that I can’t finish. Would scraping them and rewriting them really help? So do you usually throw out the musical ideas or do you take the old ones and reuse them?

---

I'll have to see that article by OSC. My process involves completing a single idea in as complete a way as possible. Then I show it to someone who is smarter than me, ussualy a comp. professor or a composer i know. We talk about it, I make notes, I write in their ideas as alternatives, I take the thing home and I start on a new sheet of paper, writing in the revised Idea, and adding in new stuff when it hits, INVARIABLY the result is a major improvement.

The biggest thing that helps is the WISE input. I take my work to people with more experience, who I know will a)not rewrite my work, by still talk about the flaws b)not try to be my friend and say its wonderful c)understand that I intend to rework the idea and follow up, which I always do.

So yes, show your work to someone smarter than you (if they are available) and LISTEN TO THEM! The biggest problem with composers/writers (and I have heard this from many professionals in the field) is they don't have the courage or the will to admit the flaws in their work, and do serious revisions which remove flaws. Just because something came from your own hands doesn't mean its any good, some of it is, most probably isn't yet. Of all the work I do, maybe 10 percent ends up in the hands of a performer, and I am never satisfied at the result.
 

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Posted by Steev (Member # 6805) on :
 
I had a really bad experience with all but one of my college professors in that they would constantly criticize without any reason and basically try to rewrite it. Many of them were so entrenched in the study of certain styles and forms that anything outside that was akin to heresy it was very discouraging.

The one professor that was helpful and offered many good insights and inspiration I no longer have access to as I haven't seen him in 20 years and lives 2000 miles away, at least I think he does as I have no idea where he would be today.

Basically I'm kind of writing in a black hole.
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
Yah, sucks to hear your experience steev, this is a common feeling among many music students, and a common mistake of some professors. Nothing worse than an unknown composer trying to tell YOU how to write your peice.

On the Other Hand: Your perception of them rewriting your peice probably has alot to do with how you feel and react towards your own music. What I mean is, you many not have then had the courage or the self-perspective to realize your mistakes and react with more grace to criticism. Often the less confident you are, the more defensive you will feel, so that an insensitive professor will easily hurt your pride by suggesting major revisions.

I get alot of advice which I ask for, and that advice I take to heart much more than that which is unsolicited, which means I come into a meeting with another composer with my ears and eyes more open to their views. It is often SO easy for someone else to tell you what is wrong with your peice, and it may be discouraging, but if you have the proper mindset it should also be HELPFULL as well.

Can't tell you how many people have brought work to me and asked me about it, then completely failed to listen to a single peice of advice I gave. My advice might not have been what they wanted to hear, but I am one of the people who will hear the end result. Often these fellow students get caught up in the popular "lone ranger" composer self image, where they are convinced of their genius, and need to be misunderstood, in order to make their work more valuable in some kind of moralistic game.

I try never to get atached to an idea when I hear suggestions to improve it; the fact that a more experienced person suggested something else, tells me that the peice will not satisfy, and needs at least to be changed in some way.
 

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Posted by Steev (Member # 6805) on :
 
It's quite possible. I didn't have a very thick skin in those days and any small inkling of courage and self-perspective that I had would have been beaten out of me by the sheer lack of acceptance of anything I was doing at the time.

But, like I mentioned before, I did have one professor who actually helped provide insight into my mistakes and could help me understand why certain things did or didn't work. He actually offered suggestions that made things better and I never felt like he was rewriting my composition. In reality he was rewriting them but it didn't feel that way and sometimes they were major rewrites. However, all of the others would only say that whatever it was I was trying to do would never really matter in the end. They didn't ever offer alternatives other than to suggest that I should put aside composition and consider working toward a teaching degree instead. In fact one professor in particular, after listening to one of my compositions, simply said to me, "That's not very good." When I asked why he couldn't offer any insight as to why and then ushered me from his office so that he could torment the next student waiting out in the hall.

The more I think about it the more I realized that many of them were probably just as disillusioned and frustrated because they were taught that their compositions didn't matter either. Many of them outright said that they didn't bother writing music themselves, and these were the professors that were teaching the compositions classes. Now I learned quickly that I would most likely never get any helpful advice from them. I knew how they felt from their lectures in the classroom as well as their evaluations from the composition recitals. I wasn't the only one they would frustrate; I think I just got sick of it quicker.
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Clarinet.

I play clarinet, and I had a great deal of fun "jamming" with my son playing guitar.

Railroad Earth, a funky bluegrass-rock band, uses a clarinet in some songs beautifully.

The thing I enjoy about music these days is the way different styles are blended together. I hear violin/fiddle in rock more and more. I love it.
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
How Cruel.


Yes, these types exist, I am also an English major, and see these stagnant academic types on that side of the university most often. What horrible irony that these washouts were teaching you, and encouraging you to wash out just like them.

I am very lucky to be a student at a particularly vibrant and new Music department, where the pool of music students has increased 10 fold in the last 5 years, and we have new facilities, new teachers, and great guest performers. Not all are so lucky though . The most important thing is to have teachers who are teaching you to SUCEED! At least you were wise enough to know how valuable their opinions really were!
 

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Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
 

I just read OSC's review of academic music. I knew there was a reason I liked him!

(did you know there was a max of 8 smilies? I had something like 20 rofl's, but it wouldn't let me put them all in...)

(on day I will have to post the piece I'm working on currently waiting to be finished...(which has major flaws I'm not sure how to fix and I bet you guys could help!))
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
So, it is funny to publicly humiliate a person who shares their music with you?

I did not get "funny" from that article, sorry, I got "self-satisfied prig trying to pretend that he is making fun of a self-satisfied prig."
 

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Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
 
For one, he never gave the guys name.

For two, I studied 5 years of academic composition and fully agree with OSC's comments and love hearing someone else saying what I decided. Sorry it upsets you.

For what it is worth, in my 5th year, I began to "enjoy" atonal music, if you can call "enjoyable" getting headaches (yes I did and still do get headaches listening to atonal music). But I somehow found a way to enjoy it and I probably still could if I listened to it. (It was one of the big clues it was time to bail and do something else. Like OSC said, if I can't write music that nobody I know would like (except the profs), why do it?)
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
Yes Human, I -somewhat- enjoyed that article, but really felt it was an unreasonably general attack on Academia.

His statments about what "academic" music is and isn't, though I'll concede whatever definition he wants to use for his own purposes, is nevertheless too broad and dismissive.

The problem with OSC's style of discourse is that he is basically saying things like: Since I am a regular guy, and I don't find it enjoyable, therefore regular people will never be into this. Not only that, but since you ACADEMICS aren't regular people, you can't understand what regular people like, and you exclude them by purposely liking things they don't. There is no logical response because his statment is couched in such a way that ANY reply from the target will be an affirmation of his point, either the Adamics will say; "HOW DARE YOU SIR!!!" or they will go "yah, your right." Either way they can't reasonably argue, because he is using the "you don't understand where I am coming from," argument, to talk about a group of people HE doesn't understand. How tedious this game has become for me lately.

It's kinda like you said Human, point is, OSC never spent 5 years in music banging away at the repertoire and listening to COUNTLESS hours of recitals, Cds, lectures, etc. Given all that, how can anybody possibly feel the same way about music. So we academics shouldn't be seen as less valid because we're "out of touch" with the public. We're so in touch with music that we want and need to hear things in a new and different way.

Atonal music actually DOESN"T sound bad to the people who compose it, and to accuse these people of "throwing fruit at the audience," is laughably dismisive and pretty insulting. After all, composers are no different in mentality than other artists. If we don't like OSC's book, we don't accuse him of attempting to attack the public with crappy sci-fi. Now I am all kermugenny over this!!!
 

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Posted by boogashaga (Member # 8881) on :
 
While I have never truly enjoyed "listening" to
atonal music, I get really excited as a theorist when I analyze it, especially 12 tone. It sort of gets me thinking as a mathmatician AND a musician. Most of the people that I have associated with (musically speaking, that is) over the last 35 years really do not appreciate OR understand music that does not fit into their own personal little pigeonholes reserved for musical things. Music appreciation classes in college were designed to help intellectuals (that is, college students) to become somewhat more familiar with the so-called "classical" forms of musical expression.

I found when teaching courses like this that so many people were so ill-prepared in this arena that they had incredible difficulty trying to "catch up" with the average student who had played piano for several years or had been in high school band/orchestra. Many people do recognize a few things (the main theme from Beethoven's 5th or his "Moonlight Sonata," the famous bass line in the accompaniment to Schubert's "Erlkonig," or the opening strains of Mozart's "Eine Kleine Nactmusik," for example) from the "classical" literature, but many times this is about all. Evenyually they do seem to develope a taste for certain periods. The Baroque and Classical are what I seem to remember as their preferences. Not too many got excited about 20th century forms though.

Where do I find the article by OSC?
 

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Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
 
http://www.hatrack.com/osc/reviews/everything/2006-01-15.shtml

quote:

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His statments about what "academic" music is and isn't, though I'll concede whatever definition he wants to use for his own purposes, is nevertheless too broad and dismissive.

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quote:

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The problem with OSC's style of discourse is that he is basically saying things like: Since I am a regular guy, and I don't find it enjoyable, therefore regular people will never be into this. Not only that, but since you ACADEMICS aren't regular people, you can't understand what regular people like, and you exclude them by purposely liking things they don't. There is no logical response because his statment is couched in such a way that ANY reply from the target will be an affirmation of his point, either the Adamics will say; "HOW DARE YOU SIR!!!" or they will go "yah, your right." Either way they can't reasonably argue, because he is using the "you don't understand where I am coming from," argument, to talk about a group of people HE doesn't understand. How tedious this game has become for me lately.

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quote:

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It's kinda like you said Human, point is, OSC never spent 5 years in music banging away at the repertoire and listening to COUNTLESS hours of recitals, Cds, lectures, etc. Given all that, how can anybody possibly feel the same way about music. So we academics shouldn't be seen as less valid because we're "out of touch" with the public. We're so in touch with music that we want and need to hear things in a new and different way.

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quote:

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Atonal music actually DOESN"T sound bad to the people who compose it

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and to accuse these people of "throwing fruit at the audience," is laughably dismisive and pretty insulting.

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Now I am all kermugenny over this!!!

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[T]he popular music audience... is amply supplied with a down-to-earth music of its own which the serious composer, by definition, cannot write, and with which his own product cannot compete, if only because its down-to-earthiness has an intellectual cast neither charming nor intelligible to the popular audience. In short, the composer would like to please, but is not pleased to write what pleases society, or at least that part of society which comprises his audience. Society would like to please the composer, whom it regards as an ornament and as a comforting guarantee of cultural continuity, but it is not pleased by what he writes. The situation is tolerated only because both composer and society have been persuaded to believe that this is the way it has always been.

Society's concept of the composer-audience relationship is as distorted as the composer's. It imagines the present situation to be a replica of what has been happening for generation after generation for a century and a half -- which it isn't -- and assumes that the next generation will be listening to this music with rapture -- which it won't.

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Originally posted by human_2.0:

Card knows this too because he is a master communicator. Have you heard him talk in person? He knows how to capture a person's attention and demand they listen to him. That is what communication is about. If you can do that with music, you can quit school now because you are there.

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((Human))

Your right. Its all about communicating effectively. Its funny what you said about style. Very true. Think of the rancorous relationship between Haydn and Beethoven, or Wagner and, well everyone. Genius has the ability to recognize itself. Actually I have just gotten to the part in the Edward Holmes "Life of Mozart," where Mozart says something like: 'Germany doesnt appreciate my music because it has no great appreciation of the great vienesse school. No matter; my music will CREATE an appreciation of the vienesse school in Germany. Classic ego from the master. Or it was Beethoven who said, "No-one deserves this gift more than me who is losing it. (hearing)"

WEll I'm not quite that confident, but I AM aware that other's perceptions of what I mean to do or what I am doing will be colored by MY ability to communicate effectively. Really good point.
 

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Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
 
I think Card is so harsh because he has no toleration of an establishment that tolerates anything that makes communication a second class citizen.
 

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