Back in the 4th or 3rd grade, I remember I had a black shirt on with a whole mess of lint on the back (and I didn't notice.) I ran up to my friends at recess, all ready to play a mean game of four square when they ran away laughing. Finally, at lunch recess, I cornered one of my friends and demanded to know what happened. She explained that I looked stupid with my linty shirt and that they didn't want to be seen with me.
Daaang.
Last year, this guy was caught cheating on his girlfriend with one of her friends at a party. I heard everyone promptly shunned the cheating guy and girl for a couple of weeks.
I dunno what I'm trying to say, but I'm just pretty tired of seeing people shun others as like... punishment. Why does society do this?
(And to this day I check my dark shirts for lint.)
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Because it is very effective.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Because you're Amish? Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
people exclude others (mostly) to define or protect their own inclusion.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Last year, this guy was caught cheating on his girlfriend with one of her friends at a party. I heard everyone promptly shunned the cheating guy and girl for a couple of weeks.
As far as reasons for shunning go, that one's not bad.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
Because by shunning someone who has done something wrong, you can potentially make them feel shame at what they've done and correct their behavior. Fear of being shunned can even prevent bad behavior in the first place. It's an effective tool toward the ongoing struggle to keep society polite.
Children are by nature selfish, and have yet to learn the subtleties of polite behavior, even if they've mastered basic concepts like "say 'please' and 'thank you'." So the lint thing, while absurd and unjustifiable from a mature, rational standpoint, can at least be understood when you keep in mind the inherent immaturity and irrationality of children.
As for someone who has cheated on a boyfriend or girlfriend, I would feel no qualms whatsoever about shunning them. Cheating is unjustifiable behavior, and anyone who does it should be made to feel shame about it.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Kitsune,
People shun sometimes because we're social animals. It helps us feel righteous, and in the worst cases self-righteous. And in the case of your circle of friends, it probably was self-righteous for at least some of them-a large enough circle of people will probably include someone who has cheated and gotten away with it, after all.
In this particular case, the cheating guy and girl might've known the circle of friends less well than the original girlfriend, and so the shunning was also a method of siding with her and showing support.
You didn't bring it up so perhaps you don't want to go into more detail, but I'm curious about your reaction to the shunning. The recent one, I mean. Why do you disapprove of this? It sounds to me as though there's a personal aspect.
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
The problem with "shunning" as a punishment or means of behavior correction is that it gives the shunned person(s) no chance to present their own case, and in some cases doesn't even give the person(s) the opportunity to realize why they're being shunned in the first place. Malicious rumors and slander can lead to shunning as easily as real misdeeds. And in many cases, of course, the shunned person isn't even doing something wrong, just doing or being something different.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
/agrees with Rakeesh
A loooong time ago, inclusion/exclusion someone was a pretty effective way of creating a social order, and establishing who was better than whom. If you were "in," you had power; if you were "out", you didn't. If you were way out of line, you could be physically removed from the tribe through execution, abandonment, or other means.
Social exclusion falls somewhere in betweeen. Giving someone a cold shoulder was a tactful way of saying "I hope you get eaten by a sabre-toothed tiger!"
[As an aside, I had to write a paper last quarter regarding a study that claims "hurt feelings" as a result of exclusion actually creates a type of pain response, awakening the part of the brain that fires when the current situation is in conflict with personal goals.]
--j_k
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
Some people exclude themselves by choice. I'm one of them. I don't feel include in the majority of college age people, but it's all due to the choices I've made as for what I will and won't do.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
If I do so recall, ostracism was pretty much the way the Greeks dealt with troublemakers and the like. Seems to be a pretty tried and true tradition. Possibly even intrinsic trait of humanity, or possibly society. I'm too tired to think about it too deeply, but I've always thought of it as completely natural.
Posted by Chreese Sroup (Member # 8248) on :
People need to feel power over other people. Sad, but true.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
If I recall correctly, at least one famous greek used his time of ostracism to raise an army, then came back and conquered athens (where he was ostracized from).
I'm not so sure the practice is so true, tried though it may be.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Ostracism in Greece (at least in Athens, I don't know if the other cities practised it) was a bit more than social exclusion. If you were voted out of the city - quite literally, voted out; democracy in its purest form - you had to stay out for ten years, on pain of death. Ouch!
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I'm shunning several people right now!
<---- the eyes of shunning are upon you
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
Or they find someone annoying, and would rather their presence be gone.
Not nice to be at the receiving end of, but it happens.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
Yes, thats what I'd remembered, that Greeks basically kicked the person out of the city. Sure, its a very extreme for of 'shunning', but still basically the same concept. Shunning and excluding people who upset the status quo has been practiced for thousands of years and will continue to be practiced. I for one am just glad its on a bit of a smaller scale than it was back then. And yeah, there is always the option of raising hell on the people who have ostracized you. hehe. That's always fun.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
quote: it gives the shunned person(s) no chance to present their own case [. . .] Malicious rumors and slander can lead to shunning as easily as real misdeeds. And in many cases, of course, the shunned person isn't even doing something wrong, just doing or being something different.
True. As a tool, it has to be used very carefully. Some people shun for "offenses" as trivial as having the wrong clothes, the wrong accent, or the wrong skin color. I don't need to tell anyone about the tragedies that can result from that. Clearly ostracism is not to be undertaken lightly.
We just don't talk to people who would do something like that anyway. Posted by Kitsune (Member # 8290) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Kitsune,
In this particular case, the cheating guy and girl might've known the circle of friends less well than the original girlfriend, and so the shunning was also a method of siding with her and showing support.
You didn't bring it up so perhaps you don't want to go into more detail, but I'm curious about your reaction to the shunning. The recent one, I mean. Why do you disapprove of this? It sounds to me as though there's a personal aspect.
Ah, oops. I reread what I wrote and realized that I sounded like I was pro-cheating or something. I was just really tired and was trying to have two situations of exclusion where one case was mean and the other one was needed.
Something similiar happened at my school, but it's sort of embarrassing to explain. Well... hm. Ah oh well, it's not a really big deal.
This guy was cheating on his girlfriend with other girls. One of the girls got annoyed and told everyone. He's being laughed at for some of the comments she said about.. their affair together. The girlfriend went to another school, so she didn't hear about it, but they still broke up because they were on the rocks anyway. People're avoiding the guy now. He's still a complete player and all, though.
I mean, that's a good thing, I know. I'm trying to remember what I was thinking about yesterday when I wrote this . I think I was just remembering the shirt thing and threw in another situation for the heck of it.
Posted by boogashaga (Member # 8881) on :
Were the boyfriend & girlfriend engaged? Or were they just, let's say, "dating" each other? If they were not married or engaged (that means with a ring and a date--not 2-3 years away, either), then why was everyone "shunning" him if he was known as a "player," as you wrote? I really don't see this as "cheating." It just seems that the girlfriend had a real choice dude for a guy, that's all. Maybe if she didn't try to "date" guys she was seeing casually, the outcome would not have required "shunning."
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
<---- the eyes of shunning are upon you
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
. I think I was just remembering the shirt thing and threw in another situation for the heck of it.