I'm definitely dragging someone to see it the day it comes out. *searches about for victim*
-pH
Posted by Avadaru (Member # 3026) on :
I'm ridiculously excited. This is one of my favorite books, and I completely freaked out when I saw it was being made into a film, and freaked out even more when I saw who was starring and directing. I think it's going to be amazing. If you were back in LA, I would go see it with you here. :-P
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
I was excited, until I realized that the leads are all Chinese. Talk about a riot waiting to happen.
Posted by Evie3217 (Member # 5426) on :
I didn't realize it was next week. That is very exciting. I only hope that it's out long enough so that I can see it over winter break.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I guess I really don't understand why there's an uproar over that. I've read a few other people's reviews/predictions that mentioned that, but I mean...it's not like actors have never portrayed characters of other cultures/countries/etc. before.
-pH
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote: I was excited, until I realized that the leads are all Chinese. Talk about a riot waiting to happen.
Yeah, I bet it won't be playing in Little Tokyo.
Posted by Avadaru (Member # 3026) on :
Er...from my understanding, the 4 leads are played by 2 Chinese women, one Malaysian woman, and a Japanese man. Has there really been an uproar over this? What's the big deal?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
We had another thread about it... I'd have to look for it.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Please do. I'm really interested in understanding why this is such a big deal, and I really don't remember the thread.
EDIT: Thanks! *wanders off to read*
-pH
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
Ava - The Chinese and the Japanese have very few reasons, historically, to like each other. Having one play the other in a movie role is extraordinary amounts of insulting to many people. Example: If you aren't familiar with the rape of Nanking, the Japanese military invaded Nanking with the intention of raping and murdering civilians. They did so - with roughly 300,000 innocent Chinese. Civilians (including women, children and the elderly) were lined up by the hundreds and Japanese officers would have races, attempting to see who could behead their line of civilians first. The list of not-too-distant atrocities is pretty long, in both directions.
My extended family is pretty irritated, and we're far more American than Japanese.
quote:Yeah, I bet it won't be playing in Little Tokyo.
The Chinese are more likely to be upset about this than the Japanese are, actually.
quote:I guess I really don't understand why there's an uproar over that. I've read a few other people's reviews/predictions that mentioned that, but I mean...it's not like actors have never portrayed characters of other cultures/countries/etc. before.
Asian Americans have long had to endure a double standard when it comes to racism (as have many other minority groups). It's considered acceptable to use derogatory terms and attitudes regarding Asian Americans in the public/popular media, where it is not acceptable to do so with, for example, African Americans. You say the "n" word out of place and there are serious social (and possibly legal) reprecussions, but people tend to worry a lot less about the use of "chink" or "jap." As a result, they tend to be hypersensitive to issues like this one.
Posted by Avadaru (Member # 3026) on :
In the other thread the point was made that this is an American movie, for an American audience, and I think that is mostly true. I'm sure there will be some people bothered by the nationalities of the actors, but the majority (and it's the majority that the producers are worried about pleasing) won't even notice. I am definitely aware of the huge cultural differences between the Asian countries in question, but this IS a movie we're talking about, not an attack on Asian culture and whether or not Asian people are one big homologous group.
Also, Taalcon said in the other thread,
quote:And yes - it is in English. So you get to hear them speak English with Chinese accents.
Actually, I read an article in Newsweek that said that all the actors and actresses were being trained to speak English with a Japanese accent.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
It's kinda like calling a Salvadorean or Equadorian "Mexican".
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I really think whether or not they pull it off will depend on how well it's made, how good the directing and acting are, and how good the script is. You know, all those things that make you "suspend disbelief".
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Back, and still don't think it's a big deal. The Dark Angel girl has played a ton of different nationalities, to give another example. Cate Blanchett is from Australia but played an Irish reporter in Veronica Guerin, and uh, it really didn't bother me at all.
At any rate, still ridiculously excited about this movie. Among other things, it looks PRETTY.
And now reading the other posts, I don't know. I guess I still don't "get it," but it's an American movie about an American book, yes? I sincerely doubt I'll notice, just because I tend to get really, really into movies. The only time when something race-like might bother me is probably when the only character who's a minority is REALLY REALLY STEREOTYPICALLY a minority. Then I become annoyed.
-pH
Posted by Avadaru (Member # 3026) on :
quote: It's kinda like calling a Salvadorean or Equadorian "Mexican".
I understand what you're saying, but I don't think anyone is trying to say that Chinese and Japanese people are the same. It's more a question of which actresses were qualified to play the role as well as draw an audience. I can't think of a more perfect person to play Sayuri than Zhang Ziyi, and while my knowledge of Asian actresses is not extensive, her name rings a bell and I have been impressed with her work in the past, and will probably be more likely to see a movie that she is headlining than if an unknown star were in her place. Maybe that's silly of me, but I'm sure a lot of other people feel the same. I'm not saying it's right, but it's going to sell tickets.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:I am definitely aware of the huge cultural differences between the Asian countries in question, but this IS a movie we're talking about, not an attack on Asian culture and whether or not Asian people are one big homologous group.
Most people will be willing to suspend disbelief or potential for offense in favor of viewing the movie as simply entertainment. But given the nature of the Asian American community, I'm guessing there will be (and, more likely than not, has been) some fairly heated debate on this issue.
quote:It's kinda like calling a Salvadorean or Equadorian "Mexican".
Good analogy.
quote:Back, and still don't think it's a big deal. The Dark Angel girl has played a ton of different nationalities, to give another example. Cate Blanchett is from Australia but played an Irish reporter in Veronica Guerin, and uh, it really didn't bother me at all.
Most people won't care. But just as there were people who objected to Mel Gibson playing William Wallace in Braveheart, there will be people objecting to Zhang Zi Yi and Michelle Yeoh in MoaG.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:I understand what you're saying, but I don't think anyone is trying to say that Chinese and Japanese people are the same. It's more a question of which actresses were qualified to play the role as well as draw an audience. I can't think of a more perfect person to play Sayuri than Zhang Ziyi, and while my knowledge of Asian actresses is not extensive, her name rings a bell and I have been impressed with her work in the past, and will probably be more likely to see a movie that she is headlining than if an unknown star were in her place. Maybe that's silly of me, but I'm sure a lot of other people feel the same. I'm not saying it's right, but it's going to sell tickets.
No one's disputing that it will sell tickets, especially with the vast majority of Americans, who can't tell the difference between any of the three primary East Asian ethnicities, much less the difference between Okinawans and Japanese, or the difference between Taiwanese and Chinese, not to mention the hundreds of Southeast Asian appearances.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
It has nothing to do with not being able to tell the difference. You're making it seem like Americans will only like this movie if they're utterly ignorant and think all Asians look the same.
That's not really the case, in my opinion.
-pH
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Oh, Avadaru, sorry. I was actually talking about erosomniac's last point before mine. It's not quite the same-- although there are many groups that are so marginalized in American entertainment.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I don't think anyone's saying that, pH-- I think what we're saying is that for a certain portion of the population, it will be noticeable and jarring and uncomfortable.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:It has nothing to do with not being able to tell the difference. You're making it seem like Americans will only like this movie if they're utterly ignorant and think all Asians look the same.
That's not what I meant - what I meant is that if you're largely ignorant (and I'm not using the word in a derogatory sense) of the differences between Asian ethnicities, there's no potential for you to be offended by the casting choices in the movie.
If you ARE aware of the differences, the potential IS there. And most Asian Americans are very aware of the differences and many will choose to be offended.
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
Isn't the choice to be offended by another nationality acting in a role as your particular nationality somewhat racist in and of itself?
Posted by lucy hummer (Member # 7740) on :
For a certain portion of the population, most movies are, noticeable and jarring and uncomfortable.
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
I'm gonna be a bit uncomfortable, seeing the movie. Zhang Ziyi doesn't even look Japanese at all to me.
Disclaimer: Not Asian.
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
Who here was offended when Paz Vega (Spanish for those who don't know) played a Mexican in Spanglish? Would you even have noticed if you didn't know her nationality?
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Isn't the choice to be offended by another nationality acting in a role as your particular nationality somewhat racist in and of itself?
That would depend on how you define racist, and the reasons for being offended at the inaccurate casting. If a Japanese guy was offended because he felt that Chinese were inferior in some way and therefore shouldn't be playing Japanese roles, then that's certainly racist in my book. If, however, a Japanese guy were offended because he felt Japanese, Chinese, Malaysian and Asian cultures in general were being marginalized with the suggestion that they're interchangeable - well, I don't see how that's racist at all.
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
The difference is that Spain and Mexico like each other, or at least don't hate each other, which China and Japan definitely DO.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
In that case, we should be offended by every movie that seems to portray European cultures as interchangable.
-pH
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ryuko: The difference is that Spain and Mexico like each other, or at least don't hate each other, which China and Japan definitely DO.
I would do a little more research on the relationships of both those pairs if I were you.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Who here was offended when Paz Vega (Spanish for those who don't know) played a Mexican in Spanglish? Would you even have noticed if you didn't know her nationality?
I'm willing to bet there were offended Mexicans and Spaniards, as well as others who were culturally aware of the differences between the two.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:In that case, we should be offended by every movie that seems to portray European cultures as interchangable.
Were I of European descent, I might be. As it is, I really don't care - the same way most non-Asians really won't care about the casting irregularities of Memoirs of a Geisha.
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
quote:Originally posted by BaoQingTian:
quote:Originally posted by Ryuko: The difference is that Spain and Mexico like each other, or at least don't hate each other, which China and Japan definitely DO.
I would do a little more research on the relationships of both those pairs if I were you.
I suppose you're right, I don't know anything about Spain and Mexico's interaction with each other. But I DO know about China and Japan's interaction with each other, and though I may have been oversimplifying up there, I stand by my statement.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I AM of European descent, and I've never cared. And I don't really know of anyone of European descent who DOES care.
-pH
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:I AM of European descent, and I've never cared. And I don't really know of anyone of European descent who DOES care.
And while that's noble of you and the others you know of European descent, it doesn't really change the fact that those of Asian (esp. Japanese & Chinese, in this instance) descent DO care.
In the long run, nothing will change: there won't be enough fuss over this to actually influence studio policy on casting, and certainly not enough to influence any legislation of policies regarding ethnic insensitivity, but the people who want to get upset will still do so.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I don't really consider it a noble thing.
-pH
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
It's also a matter of how recently your ethnic identity changed from European to American. For many Americans, their European heritage is something lost in antiquity, and many don't acknowledge it, or care. Hence our acceptance of the blanket term "white" to describe anyone of any European heritage.
Possibly because most have immigrated more recently, Asian Americans are much more keenly aware of their culture, and much more fiercely proud of it than the average white person is. Many Asian Americans speak their ethnic language as a first language, or are bi-lingual. Because of their more recent immigration, there are more ethnically "pure" (by which I mean descended from a single ethnic background) Asian Americans than European Americans.
Look at early America: there were cultural neighborhoods and burroughs that fought and competed endlessly with each other. Many of these attitudes persist today, consciously or not.
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ryuko: I suppose you're right, I don't know anything about Spain and Mexico's interaction with each other. But I DO know about China and Japan's interaction with each other, and though I may have been oversimplifying up there, I stand by my statement.
Sorry, that came across as sounding incredibly arrogant I'm sure. I apologize. I spent some time in Taiwan and noticed a great fascination for and emulation of Japanese culture (especially pop culture) among the youth, although many of the older people (their grandparents) still hated the Japanese for what they had done.