I'm a senior in highschool and I figure I should really start looking for a college to go to. The only thing that really interests me remotely is history. So my question is this: What colleges are known for their History programs? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
I'm not much of a help in knowing what schools are big on history. I'm a history major at UTD, and I probably wouldn't recommend it to most people. It seems like an inferior program to me. Maybe that's just me. *waits for Amanecer to chip in with her two cents*
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
IU's pretty good in History, and it has rolling admissions, which would be good for you since most college admission deadlines are at the end of December.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
You might want to start by considering some of these options:
Do you want to stay in-state/close to home or go cross-country?
What can you afford? How much would scholarship money factor into your choice?
That'll really help you limit down your choices. I found college to be a game of exclusion.
Contact your school counselors/advisors who can provide you with some good college review publications and websites that allow program searches and side-by-side comparisions.
Posted by Minerva (Member # 2991) on :
Are you male or female? I'm thinking of women's colleges.
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
You also probably shouldn't try to determine which colleges to apply to because of one department. Most college students change their minds about what they want to study while at college. Also, most colleges will have decent programs in all of the basic subjects (math, history, english, biology, chemistry, etc). You should only research departments in detail when you really, really want to study something out of the ordinary while an undergrad, like, say, South Asian Art History.
Instead, I would suggest you look for a school which you can afford and has an atmosphere that you like.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
Indeed. The learning environment and process will have the biggest effect on the your enjoyment of a particular field.
Lots of schools have good history departments but which offers the best program for you. My school, for instance, has a great program in history but its suited for students who want to study from a liberal arts perspective and feel comfortable in undergrad seminars with only 4 people. I know some people who overwhelmed by that degree of study and do better in large classrooms with more rigid teaching styles.
Posted by Zarex (Member # 8504) on :
SVU, Orson Scott Card teaches there. Where else could you possibly want to go. But then again I'm a bit biased.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I think it's way better to choose a college based on its "feel," really. Because there's no guarantee that you'll keep studying history, and you could be stuck in a school that's not good for underwater basket-weaving when you realize after your freshman year that that's all you want to do for the rest of your life.
I got lucky. I switched out of a great music industry program into a great marketing program and still managed to maintain the music industry concentration.
-pH
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote: *waits for Amanecer to chip in with her two cents*
I agree. UTD is a science, not liberal arts, oriented school.
Strangelove- What do you want to do with your history degree? Do you want to teach? Are you planning on getting a master's? Is there a specific area that you're interested in studying? I guess my real question is "why are you majoring in history?" If you want to teach, do research, or go to law school that is a great major. And which university you choose could be strongly affected by these things. If you don't want these things, there are few other practical applications for a history major. I decided to get a history major simply because it was my favorite subject in high school. I now realize that this is a very bad basis for choosing a major and am double majoring in a more practical area. Some people might disagree, but I think it's wise to figure out your what you want to do and pick you're major from there. Is history what you want to do?
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
On Wisconsin!
But this is speaking from much personal bias.
Seriously, consider the questions above. And if I may ask, why did you wait so long to start thinking about this?
Posted by tern (Member # 7429) on :
I would recommend an Ivy League college if you can get into it. Generally, they're known for their leftist arts and social science programs, and even if you change your mind, the name on the degree opens doors. So if you don't want to end up a history professor yourself, you can use your degree and have a bright future in political corruption! ;P
If you don't mind providing this information, what are your SAT/ACT scores and GPA?
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
quote:If you want to teach, do research, or go to law school that is a great major. . .]If you don't want these things, there are few other practical applications for a history major.
Sorry, Amanecer, but sort of restricted thinking about undergraduate majors is a serious pet peeve of mine. History is a very common undergraduate major for businesspeople and corporate executives. More obviously it's also common among librarians, journalists, museum workers. . .see the page "what can you do with an undegraduate degree in history?" for more ideas.
There are things you will have difficulty doing with a history major; I certainly wouldn't recommend it as a sole major if your ultimate goal is, oh, to work as a computer programmer or a biotech researcher or a psychiatrist or whatnot. But if you're looking for office work in the business or non-profit world, it's a pretty solid choice, and if you're looking to go into grad school, it will be applicable to a lot of different programs.
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
Yeah - unless you're certain you want to go into a field which requires a large amount of "technical" training (accounting, engineering, programming, etc), you can do well with almost any major. Major in what you like, not what you think will help you out on the job market. Most employers are more interested in students who have good communication skills and have learned how to learn than they are in filling out their departments with business and applied math majors. And yes, I have that direct from a number of different employers (I'm in a Management Fellows program at my school which allows students to hobnob with alums who are CEOs or other hotshots. )
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
I'd expect though that for a given open job (in business since that was the example you used), an employer would take someone with a business/management major over someone with a history major, since they would have more training in the field they were going into.
I would agree that history majors can be other things besides teachers and researchers, but I think you're giving it a lot more leeway than it deserves. In a competitive job market, history majors do have limited avenues to pursue (assuming they don't get a second degree in something else).
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
pfresh85: that might only be the case in an "if all else is equal" situation . . . and when it comes to the interviewing stage, all else is almost never equal. They're going to take the one who sounds like a better fit, no matter which major the person has. History can do a good job of preparing a student for such situations.
Also, most jobs are not found in a standard interview manner. People get jobs based on, among other things, friends and contacts.
Not to mention that its only an undergraduate degree; if you decide you want to go into business with it, get an MBA.
And partly, of course, this isn't a matter of debate, but of the record. There are lots of executives with non-business undergrad degrees, and one common one is history. In my personal experience, the majority of people I know (including in academia) are in jobs relatively unrelated to their undergraduate major.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
Well see fugu, therein lies my complaint with our world. We don't live in an equal system, where it's a level playing field for all. It's a "who do you know" and "how well can you schmooze (sp?)" system. I find that both disappointing and unfortunate.
I understand completely that many people do things completely unrelated to their major. I just think if you take history on the whole, most history majors are probably either teaching, doing history research at a university of some sort, or went to law school. This observation is based purely on a) people I know who graduated with history majors and b) people I know (like myself) who are history majors currently and have certain plans set out for the future.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
hmmm ... Lets see. First off, I'm a guy. Secondly, I had pretty much decided on either going to Florida State or Flagler (a private college in St. Augustine, for those who know Florida), but then my dad started pushing me to really check out where would be the absolute best, not simply the most convenient. So I've been searching and I've seen pretty much what I've seen here: No consensus on a really great school for History majors. And as for that ...
I really have not the slightest idea what I want to do with my life. But I do know that I am repulsed by most aspects of business, am horrific at science related things, and I dislike math greatly. So that narrows my career field considerably. But when looking at the options I have left (Law, teaching, archeology, politics, journalism, etc) nothing jumps out at me. Therefore my aim in choosing a major was to choose something that I not only enjoyed, but also fit into my scheme of things, or lack thereof. And History seemed to fit the bill perfectly. I very well may change my major after my first semester, but as of right now, History seems to be the most intelligent choice, considering my strengths and desires.
Back on a more practical note, I'm not entirely sure if this means a great deal, though it very well might, but I will be a transfer. I'm currently dual-enrolled at a local community college and will be graduating in the spring with my highschool diploma and AA degree.
By the way, as it appears there is no real clear choice I should be aiming for, does anyone have an opinion on FSU? And I don't mean football wise, please. lol. I know some people up in Tallahassee and have always enjoyed that area, but I don't know a great deal about the school itself, except what I can get from the website. Any opinions would be appreciated.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I didn't have a good impression of Tallahassee or FSU students, but I was only there for five days, and I was rather distressed for other reasons at the time. A girl from my high school went there for drama, and she seems to like it a lot.
I want to go to school in St. Augustine. You have no idea how much I love that city.
Also, requirements for transfer students are often much more lenient than requirements for incoming freshmen, though you'll also likely have fewer scholarship opportunities.
-pH
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
quote:Originally posted by pfresh85: I'd expect though that for a given open job (in business since that was the example you used), an employer would take someone with a business/management major over someone with a history major, since they would have more training in the field they were going into.
That's what many people expect, but that's not what's necessarily true. As I said, I've been told by HR people, CEOs of large firms (Tim Solso of Cummins, Patricia Miller of Vera Bradley, etc.), and other various VIPs that they would prefer a person with a degree in philosophy, psychology, history, etc from a liberal arts college over a person with a degree in business from just about anywhere, as long as the history major had a class or two in math or economics (so that the employer would know they could handle data and numbers).
Why?
Because a company will teach you how to do marketing or HR in the way they want you to do it, whether or not you've learned the basics beforehand. What they want is a creative, intelligent person who knows how to learn, since any good businessman will always be learning on the job. And a person with a background in demanding history or psychology program is not only more likely to have the necessary skills of communication and the ability to learn, they're also bringing something more to the table than just a knowledge of marketing.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jhai: What they want is a creative, intelligent person who knows how to learn, since any good businessman will always be learning on the job.
*hopes Jhai doesn't believe most history majors are creative, intelligent, and good at learning*
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
Sorry to have hijacked your thread, Dr. Strangelove.
I don't know many (or any, really) schools in Florida, but I do have some advice for you:
A) Strongly consider a liberal arts college: you'll have a better chance at making relationships with your professors (important if you want to go to grad school) and you'll probably be exposed to a larger number of different subjects, which might help you choose what to major in.
B) Consider trying out a different part of the country. As much as I dislike midwest winters, choosing to go to school out here rather than back home in California has given me a chance to see a different lifestyle (and further soldified my feeling that California is the best state in the Union ).
C) I also had the option of getting my A.A. degree at the same time as my high school diploma. I deliberately chose to not fulfil the A.A. requirements by one class, rather than get the A.A. I did this because I knew that all of my college classes would transfer anyways, making me one class short of junior status, and because, by not completing my A.A. I could apply as an "entering freshman," which means that I was able to get an excellent scholarship that would not have been available had I gone in as a transfer student. Now, this may not be the case for you... however, it's something you might want to consider.
D) If you're that close to getting your A.A., then I would hope you've experienced a pretty wide variety of college-level courses - I know to get an A.A. at the college I attended, you had to take at least two courses from a number of different "groups" (history & philosophy, math & science, etc.). Which of these classes have you enjoyed the most, and which ones have you disliked? An A.A. is suppose to be the general education part of college, allowing you to decide which subjects you'd like to study in greater depth during your junior and senior years. So try to use the knowledge you've gained from those classes to help you decide not only what to major in, but also what type of class structure you like (big lectures or small discussions?) and what type of student body you want to study with. Different colleges often have a different emphasis on the learning process, and you'll enjoy your last two years in school a lot more if you find a school to match your tastes.
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
quote:Originally posted by pfresh85:
quote:Originally posted by Jhai: What they want is a creative, intelligent person who knows how to learn, since any good businessman will always be learning on the job.
*hopes Jhai doesn't believe most history majors are creative, intelligent, and good at learning*
Not necessarily, of course. Philosophy majors, on the other hand...
Anyways, given two students of equal intelligence and creativity, would you rather take the one that just knows stuff you're planning on teaching him anyways, or the person who will learn the business stuff just as easily, but also has some knowledge about another subject which may or may not be helpful in the business, but at least gives him a more interesting character and a broader knowledge set?
The people I've talked to have all chosen the second applicant, with good reason, I think. The only classes I've been told to take to do well in business (and I've talked to around 20 business leaders by this point in my college career) are language courses (preferably Asian or Spanish) and sometimes a basic accounting or economics course.
Also, I think there is a selection bias in effect here: the people who tend to choose business majors over other subjects tend to not be the most creative people, and the business major track tends to not rigorously challenge students to develop their logic as much as say a math major would, or their writing ability as much as a philosophy major. At some school the business major is only one step up from Comm as a joke major. This is a generalization, mind, so I'm not saying that there aren't good business programs anywhere, nor that there aren't creative and intellegent business majors. But interviewers can't know how creative, intellegent, or good at learning their applicants are, so they too need to generalize.
Also, I want to make it clear that I don't feel the same way about business school. Getting an MBA will teach you quite a bit of valuable information, and allow you to network quite a bit.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Come to Canada!
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
I won't disagree that business is a joke major, but then at the same time I'd say most liberal arts degrees are joke majors as well. I think if we are going to go into a discussion of interesting character/creativity in a person (as far as getting a job goes), then it totally goes on a case by case (or individual by individual) basis. It's hard to make broad sweeping generalizations about it, since what may happen in one situation may not in another.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Jhai- I just want you to know that I'm reading this with great happiness. I'm a poli sci major and am perpetually worried about whether I'll be able to get a job, but I have a stat minor and hope to be fluent in Spanish when I graduate, so maybe I'm good.
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
Edit: this is in response to pfresh's commment on liberal arts degrees:
I'm not saying that people should get liberal arts degrees (i.e. major in liberal arts), but that they should get liberal arts educations, which typically focus on developing good communication skills (writing and presenting) and getting a broad range of knowledge.
For instance, at my liberal arts college (and Raia's), students are required to take one physical science lab course, one other math/science course, one lit-based course, another lit or fine arts course, two courses in history/philosophy, two courses in a foreign language, and two courses in "Self-Expression" (p.e., music, theatre, journalism, etc). We're also required to take a course that is specifically devoted to writing at a high level to get our W certification, a course that teaches logical/quantitative reasoning (math courses, some science and econ courses, and Logic from the philosophy department) to get our Q certification, and a course that emphasizes presentations (typically the senior seminar of your major) to get S certification. These broad requirements develop students into well-rounded individuals with good communication skills, and businesses notice that.
(Boy, I sound like an ad for DePauw University. Dr. SL, come here! )
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
Well my argument there would be that a good high school could give you most of that stuff. I know for a fact (as a history major with only 3 semesters left on my bachelor's degree) that I haven't learned a single thing in college about good communication skills or increasing my range of knowledge. Then again I went to a really good high school.
You sound like the type of person who would be pro-RHET1101 at UTD (RHET1101 is a generic class all freshmen must take that it supposed to teach you how school is in college, like how to properly present things, write things, do projects, etc.). I'm very anti-RHET1101, but then it's because I came in knowing these things and not needing to waste 4-5 hours of my life each week on it.
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
Oh, I went to a really good high school too - lots of Asian students with obsessive study habits pushed up the level of the education. And, with the help of my high school, I was able to attend a local C.C., which allowed me to "enter" college with almost junior status. If I were required to take a course like your RHE1001 I'd be pissed as all heck.
But at DePauw you aren't forced to take College Writing I, or Speechmaking for Dummies, or anything like that. You are required to take a difficult course that focuses on writing at a high level (typically a lit course), but those courses should be a challenge to anybody. If you aren't up to the task, then there are lower courses, such as College Writing I and II to help prepare you to take a W course. Likewise, to get your Q certification, you can take Calc I, or you can take Differential Equations - it's your choice. People typically get their S certification in their senior seminar, which, again, is a pretty difficult course. For Economics (one of my majors), it involves writing five or six 15-page research papers over the course of a semester, and then presenting these research papers to your seminar class (which has no more than 12 students in it). Philosophy majors write a 50-100 page thesis over the course of two semesters and then have a two-hour presentation/oral examination by the whole philosophy staff.
The distribution requirements keep students from focusing only on the subjects that they're strongest in. Does UTD have large distribution requirements? If you're not learning as much in your college physics, math, lit, history, or philosophy classes as you did in high school, then there's a problem with the college itself. Just because there are bad colleges that don't fulfill their responsibility to teach students doesn't mean that the idea of a liberal arts education is an invalid one: that learning deeply (beyond even the "very good high school" level) about a broad range of subjects is a good thing.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
In defense of my major (marketing):
It really does depend on the school. My school requires courses in logic and business ethics as well as three philosophies, plus calculus, statistics, science, fine arts, religious studies...a lot of things, really. And since I'm in the honors certificate program, my requirements were even more strict.
So really, that sort of thing depends more on the school than anything else.
Go to school for what you feel like studying and what you think you'd want to have a job in.
-pH
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:Originally posted by pfresh85:
quote:Originally posted by Jhai: What they want is a creative, intelligent person who knows how to learn, since any good businessman will always be learning on the job.
*hopes Jhai doesn't believe most history majors are creative, intelligent, and good at learning*
Wow.
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
to pH:
Yes, I agree that there can be very good programs in business or business-related majors. And your school is probably known as a school that has a strong business department (or at least marketing degree), as well as making its students explore more fields than just business. Thus employers will be more likely to hire students from your school, as they can be fairly certain that they're getting high-quality "goods."
But I don't think that's true for all business majors, or even the majority of them. In general, I'd hire a philosophy major over a business major, because I know it's very, very difficult to graduate with a major in philosophy and not learn how to reason and write well. There's a lot of asymmetrical information in the job market (you know how good you are, but the interviewer doesn't), which is why a lot of "signaling" goes on - interviewers judge applicants on their grammar, dress, school, major, etc. as indicators of the ability of the person to do the job. Networking is also a result of this asymmetrical information: if an applicant is referred to you by someone you trust, then that's an indication that the person is a probably a good choice to hire.
If a school is failing to educate its students, like pfresh's seems to be, from his history majors comment, than I would be generally hesitant to hire from that school at all - even if some of its graduates are very good, I can't always know that from a simple interview and coverletter.
Edit: clearing up a confusing sentence (or two)
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:I'd say most liberal arts degrees are joke majors as well.
Hogwash.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I'd also like to say that I'm a huge fan of networking. It's gotten me some really awesome opportunities.
And I may have just found a new internship with an internet marketing company. Not as cool as working for the record label, sure, but still with the flexible hours. Basically, I was told that if I end up doing it, I only take on the projects I want.
Unfortunately, I will probably not have that option in the real world. Slave labo-I mean, interning has its advantages.
-pH
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
I am so printing out this thread and showing it to my dad. I think he sort of dissapointed that I am bored rather quickly by most things business related, since that is something of a passion for him. And incidently, I created this thread with the hope a discussion like this would occur. I did struggle with the decision to major in History as a direct result of people telling me that it would make me unhirable. My decision came pretty much when I said "screw that". History has always been my 'thing' and I'm not going to change that just because it's a business mans world. Heck, money isn't even all that important to me anyways. I just want to be able to travel.
Jhai, you seem to have some experience in the HR department. Are there any colleges which will draw attention on an application or interview just as a result of their names and reputations that you would recommend?
And as for my AA, yes I have had to take courses in psychology, history, political/social, physical science, biological science, etc, as well as a number of electives. This semester was (by choice) my business semester, taking Economics and Intro to Business. In both classes I am regularly in serious danger of falling asleep. Whereas in every historical course I've taken, the only reason I was bored was because I already knew much of the material. So that also reaffirmed my previous conclusion that business is boring. *braces for the storm of denunciation that will follow that statement*.
So by all means, continue with the hijacking. I find it immensly fascinating. But if anyone spontaneously thinks "I know the school for him!" that would be appeciated also. Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote: History is a very common undergraduate major for businesspeople and corporate executives. More obviously it's also common among librarians, journalists, museum workers . . .
I did over generalize; there are many jobs that you can get with a history major. However, I still think it wise to only seek out a history major if you want a job that that major will specifically prepare you for. I know multiple people who have graduated with liberal arts degrees in the past five years who decided on their degree based on their interests rather than what would prepare them for a job. All of them are working at jobs that don't even require a college degree: bookstore worker, day care worker, and a low level business job. They have all said to me that they wished they had picked a major that would have better prepared them for the job market. Their combined advice is what led me to get another major, because I know that I am not interested in any of the jobs for which a history major would specifically prepare me.
quote: If a school is failing to educate its students, like pfresh's seems to be, from his history majors comment, than I would be generally hesitant to hire from that school at all - even if some of its graduates are very good, I can't always know that from a simple interview and coverletter.
I get very annoyed with pfresh's comments about UTD because it leads people to reach the above mentioned conclusions, that UTD is a bad school. He is correct that the history major here is far less than top notch. It is part of the Arts & Humanities School here and that is far from the focus of the school. UTD itself is very new. It only offered graduate degrees until 1975, and its first freshman class came in 1990. In that short time, it has made a very good name for itself in many areas. Most undergrads come to UTD as Computer Science, Engineer, Biology, or Business majors because those are the fields in which the school excels. The scholarships that pfresh and I have come partially from money donated from the local IT industries because they believe UTD will prepare students to come and work for them.
At a recent luncheon, I sat next to the dean of the Business school. He told me that UTD’s undergraduate Business program recently became ranked the second best in Texas. The MBA program is nationally recognized, and the business school is one of the leading universities in the country in regards to business research. Further, UTD recently received a grant to build a massive Nanotechnology laboratory because of its excellent biology programs. UTD’s chess team won the 2004 Intercollegiate Chess Championship Tournament, beating Harvard and every other team in America. UTD has plenty of things to take pride in. Just because the Arts & Humanities school is not one of them, that doesn't mean people should give UTD a bad name.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
I don't quite understand how you can be interested in a field of study such as history and not be interested in any of the jobs which stem from it. Even if its only journalism or librarian or teacher or lawyer or archeologist or something along those lines. If you're interested enough in it to not change your major in college, then it stands to reason you can find something in that field to pursue as a career. Or at least go to graduate school to make yourself more hirable. Or accept another job while searching for something more applicable. I just don't understand that. But then, perhaps I am abnormal. When my mom picked up my first copy of the histories of Herodotus at a yard sale I spent the next 3 days reading it. And I was 9 at the time. For my last birthday my sister got me a "historical yardstick" which extended to six feet and had all of the important historical facts and dates on one side and the different era's on the other side. One of the most beautiful things I've ever seen. I have 3 copies of the complete works of Josephus on my bookshelves (which consist of 3/4 of my room). People randomly come up to me and say "Hey, do you like Josephus? Here's his complete works". Chaucer and Beowulf were my bedtime companions in middle school. Livy, Cicero, Seneca, Plato, Aristotle, Augustine ... my companions through highschool. When asked to do a presentation on a pop culture icon, I chose Napoleon Bonaparte on the grounds that he influenced much of our current America (Lousiana Purchase and all). So perhaps I am a bit of a freak. But pardon me if I don't spend 2 years and thousands of dollars studying something I have not the remotest interest in, while I could be studying my passion.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amanecer: I get very annoyed with pfresh's comments about UTD because it leads people to reach the above mentioned conclusions, that UTD is a bad school.
I thought most of my comments were very history specific, with the exception of pointing out that a broad "liberal arts" education wasn't a college only thing. I will agree with you: UTD does quite well with CS and EE (and to some extent Business, although it'll be forever and a day before it trumps UT-Austin). My complaints in this thread have been directed mainly at the Arts & Humanities department and any general requirement of sorts. They are all sub-high school leve in terms of difficulty and intellectual challenge/stimulation, and they shouldn't really be college classes in my opinion. I know you'll disagree with me though, since you and I have had the pro-UTD vs anti-UTD argument before.
EDIT: Just to make sure I'm clear, I'll say UTD is one of the best schools (if not the best school) in the state of Texas if you want to do CS or EE. It's also up there if you want to do business of any kind. Those programs are the ones that get most of UTD's attention and money. My complaints against UTD are all against the Arts & Humanities (among other non-academic complaints). Amanecer should know what I'm talking about, although it wouldn't surprise me if she disagrees.
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
Dr. Strangelove, I don't have any experience in HR - I'm still in college!
But I'm in a couple of programs at my university that bring into direct contact with DePauw's huge alum network - and these people aren't just cubicle workers. I had lunch last Thursday with Tim Solso, CEO of Cummins, which does billions of dollars of sales in 60 different countries. A question that often comes up with these businesspeople is how to distinguish yourself from the pack of college grads. Everyone has mentioned foreign language as an important skill to have, and other things mentioned have been basic accounting and economics skills, the ability to communicate effectively in writing and speech, and the ability to learn. No one has ever said that a business or econ major is needed to get a job - most, in fact, have emphasized that they want a student who has a broad range of knowledge, the ability to apply that knowledge, and the ability to learn - major doesn't matter. They have said, however, to major in the things that excite you intellectually - the jobs will follow. Business leaders said this, mind, not hippies or anything like that.
Of course, a major is only part of the whole package. You can get the best liberal arts education in the world, but lose out in the interview to someone who has had multiple internships in that specific industry. Internships and networking are key to getting a job after graduation (if you're still reading this, blacwolve, try to get an internship for this summer - and start looking now). However, all other things being equal, I've been told point blank that some companies, at least, would prefer to hire a humanities major from a liberal arts college over a business major from State U.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
pfresh- we have had this argument before, and I really don't think we disagree as much as you think. While there are several exceptions, I agree that many of the history classes here are lacking in intellectual challenge/stimulation. I'm not disagreeing with your points, I'm disagreeing with your method of expressing them. I don't think you realize the effect that your posts have. When you publicly bash the program and say things like "hopes Jhai doesn't believe most history majors are creative, intelligent, and good at learning", it is unsuprising that people come away with the general impression that UTD is a bad school. I think that this is untrue and that you are doing a great disservice to every UTD student when you continue to say these things. If you hate UTD so much that you can't help but tear it down every chance you get, I think you should transfer schools. If you instead choose to stay here, and choose to be at UTD knowing full well what it's good at and what it's bad at, I think you should choose to refrain from diminishing our school in the eyes of others.
Dr. Stranglove- It sounds like History is totally your thing and that you would enjoy many of the jobs associated with it. I was not trying to attack your decision, but just ask why you were doing it. To me, it sounds like you are doing it for very good reasons.
Since you asked about me, I guess I'll share. I'm not as passionate about anything as much as it sounds like you are about history. When I was applying to colleges, I felt like I was pretty good at a lot of things. I like learning. About the only subject I didn't enjoy in high school was science, and I think that was because I took regular instead of AP because I didn't want to over burden myself with all AP classes. I did however, enjoy my history classes more than any of my other classes. Having no idea what I wanted to do career wise, I decided to major in history. For my first two years, I went through a couple of different ideas of what I wanted to major in. At different times I thought, history, psych, and/or government Through all of these majors, I was interested in the subject, but could not picture myself in any specific job associated with them. Last year, I decided that I was going to major in Business Finance. While I do find it interesting, I don't find it as interesting as the other fields. However, for the first time I can see myself pursuing a career in this field and that makes me feel like I've made the correct choice. The reason why I haven't dropped the history major, is because when I made this decision I was 12 hours away from finishing my history major (now 9). I'm so close to finishing, that it would be ridiculous to throw away all of that work. I also have a psych minor from this whole thing. If I didn't have a scholarship, I would definately feel as though I 'd wasted a lot of money with my changing plans. This is why I posted the initial comment asking why you were doing it. If it was the same reasons as me, I would warn you against it. However, you seem to be incredibly passionate and from what you've said, I'd imagine you'd be unhappy if you majored in anything else.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
I feel bad about hijacking your thread with my UTD talk, so I tried researching the best history programs. Since undergrad history departments aren't ranked and grad history departments are, I think it's reasonable to assume that if a school has a good grad program it probably has a good undergrad program. According to US News & World Report, the top three history programs are Yale, Princeton, and University of California Berkeley. Since I'm not paying for the premium edition, I can't see beyond the top three. But I bet your school counselor has a copy of US News & World Report that you could look at if you wanted to see the rest. I hope that's helpful. Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I have the premium edition for grad schools. So if you want to know anything specific, let me know.
I go nuts comparing these things. I made a ridiculously long Livejournal post comparing various graduate business programs by average entering gpa, GMAT score, starting salary, percentage employed at graduation, etc.
I think I have an obsession.
-pH
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I'm applying for at least one this summer, I'm trying to find more, but there aren't that many available that are paid in the political science field. The government seems to be inordinately fond of the words "valuable work experience" and much less fond of the words "paid internship." I really can't afford not to earn money this summer, so I need something that pays living expenses at the very least.
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
Oh, more relevant to the question at hand than my last post. . . .
One way I can think of to evaluate the history programs at the schools you're looking at, Dr. Strangelove, would be to try and get your hands on a couple of undergraduate history thesis from each school. Maybe they post them on-line, or maybe the department head has some s/he'd be willing to send you, or if you're doing school visits maybe you can take a peek into the department library. They'd give you a good picture of how far the professors are willing to push the students and how much students learn from the program by its end.
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
quote:The government seems to be inordinately fond of the words "valuable work experience" and much less fond of the words "paid internship."
Most of the federal agencies offer paid summer internships, if you're willing to work there. If you're set on working for Congress or the White House, you may indeed be pretty much out of luck.
Err, where geographically are you looking for internships, anyway?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
It doesn't matter which is the top grad school, because you won't get it. Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I seem to recall some government internship programs in DC that offered housing and a stipend...
How much help is your school being in your search?
-pH
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amanecer: pfresh- we have had this argument before, and I really don't think we disagree as much as you think. While there are several exceptions, I agree that many of the history classes here are lacking in intellectual challenge/stimulation. I'm not disagreeing with your points, I'm disagreeing with your method of expressing them. I don't think you realize the effect that your posts have. When you publicly bash the program and say things like "hopes Jhai doesn't believe most history majors are creative, intelligent, and good at learning", it is unsuprising that people come away with the general impression that UTD is a bad school. I think that this is untrue and that you are doing a great disservice to every UTD student when you continue to say these things. If you hate UTD so much that you can't help but tear it down every chance you get, I think you should transfer schools. If you instead choose to stay here, and choose to be at UTD knowing full well what it's good at and what it's bad at, I think you should choose to refrain from diminishing our school in the eyes of others.
The comment you quoted of mine was poking fun at all history majors, not at just UTD history majors (I figured that was clear since I said history majors and didn't mention UTD in taht post).
As for telling me not to say my opinions in public for fear of diminishing the school, I say maybe it needs to be diminished. People like me get suckered in by tours and large scholarships. There needs to be a more vocal minority like me to make sure that people looking into the school don't get just a "UTD is peachy" view. As for transferring, we've had this discussion. You know I would if it wasn't for the scholarship issue. I think UTD is a lackluster school (aside from the three majors we've already listed numerous times), and I think that should be made clear (so that other intelligent folks don't get suckered in by smooth talks from tours and honors teachers and large scholarships).
Sorry to hijack your thread, Dr. Strangelove. If you want to discuss this further, Amanecer, you know how to really get hold of me.
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
To be more specific, if you want a federal job, check out http://www.studentjobs.gov/. Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
pfresh, there are displeased students at every school. It's not as though the school is really TRICKING you into going there. How many students did you talk to before you applied? How many professors? That made a huge difference for me.
-pH
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
I was on a forum that many students of the school frequented for about a year and a half (at least) before applying. I went and talked to two professors and the head of the honors department. I sat in on a class. As I said, I felt I got suckered.
Posted by Rico (Member # 7533) on :
pfresh:
I agree with pH and Amanecer here, you need to do your research before you pick your college. If you did do your research beforehand then the idea of being "suckered into it" seems sort of silly to me. You weren't forced to take the scholarship, there are other ways of paying for college and while scholarships are nice, if you really feel so unhappy with the program then perhaps you should reconsider transfer.
Remember that you're there to get an education, not just a degree.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
And if you're looking to transfer, you need to do it NOW. The longer you wait, the more difficult it becomes.
-pH
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
I did my research. Ask any of my friends and family members. I was researching colleges when I was a freshman in high school. It came down to a decision between UT and UTD. The good press (via students, professors, tours, and such) + the huge scholarship (which my parents worked somewhat against me via another deal) is what made me take UTD over UT. After being at UTD for just a few weeks, I realized I had been blatantly lied to about a few things and at least somewhat lied to about others. As for transferring now, it's a bigger issue than you realize (and it's been discussed ad nauseum since last fall when I first started discussing my dissatisfaction with UTD as a school).
Posted by Rico (Member # 7533) on :
If you figured you didn't like UTD after just a few weeks, why didn't you start planning your transfer then?
I'm not one to downplay how important money is in the whole college equation, but if you feel like the education you're getting at UTD isn't up to par then you're only hurting yourself. Talk to an advisor about which of your classes are transferable to another college, go talk to the people at UT and figure out how much you can transfer as well.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
I did. The transfer issue is a large discussion in itself, and it's been an ongoing discussion since last fall. In fact, for a small period a month or so ago, it was almost certain I would be transferring out of UTD. Uncertainty keeps me here though, just like it kept me from making a proper college decision until forced upon me.
Posted by Rico (Member # 7533) on :
But you already know that UTD isn't right for you. You're already in a bad position, it doesn't seem like the uncertainty of trying another college could actually hurt you more than it already is. You're choosing to stay in a place where your unhappiness is already certain, whereas trying out another school at least opens up the possibility that you might actually like it.
Posted by tern (Member # 7429) on :
How do you know that UT didn't lie to you? Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
It's giving up something certain (in the form of the scholarship) for something uncertain (possible happiness at another school). I know money isn't everything, but it plays a large factor (at least in many of the discussions between my parents and I on the subject).
EDIT: UT could be lying just as well. That's what I mean by uncertainty. There's no guarantee UT (or any school for that matter) will fix my dissatisfaction with college.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I've been to studentjobs.gov, most of the internships either want tech or engineering students or don't pay anything. As I said, I've found a few that do, but not nearly as many as I was hoping for.
Mostly, I've been looking in the DC area, but location isn't an issue at all, really.
The school has an online thing to help people look for internships/jobs, but you have to upload your resume in order to get on it at all, only recently has my resume been in a state where I was willing to do that, and school's been rather hectic, so I haven't gotten around to it.
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
Well, you're going to need a resume to get pretty much any internship anywhere, paid or unpaid, so that's a good place to start .
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:most history majors are creative, intelligent, and good at learning
pfresh, you clearly seem to care a lot about your learning experience. I picked my University based on its campus and its general good reputation. You went to a lot of trouble to try and get yourself the best education.
But... no one's tricking you. History as it's taught at your college just isn't your thing. Perhaps history itself isn't your thing, but going around bashing other students because they don't happen to live up to your standards is not going to make you a happy person. I am a history minor, and no, I'm not a witty, sparkling genius who can re-imagine history like Marx did, but I'm not stupid and dull. And I can tell when people think I am.
History is not so much about imagination or creativity as understanding and interpretation. There's only so many ways you can look in a non-biased way at a particular event or issue. Yes, you can have an imaginative mind to see the world in a different light and you can come up with creative links between one historical story and another, but it's more of a discovery mission than one of creation.
If you're interested in a more creative look at historical events or a more socioligical view you might be interested in looking into Political Science, which I find can allow you to go a step away from teh actual facts and in why things actually happened. I find it more creative. If you're more interested in people, take more people-based classes rather than the more factual ones.
If the classes are really easy for you and you're getting straight As, do the work and study want you want on the side, or attend more classes or different classes.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
There are a number of things I could say here, but I'm going to refrain (mostly because they would cause more arguments and solve none of the issues). The point of my at least partially sarcastic comment (the one you quoted Teshi) was that you can't make broad generalizations (like saying a broad liberal arts education will likely result in a certain type of people which are better in this regard to a certain other type of people).
As for the no one's tricking me remark, I'm not going to bite on that. The only person who knows exactly what happened and what the circumstances are is me, so the rest of you have no real reason to say one thing or another. In regards to history not being my thing, nothing is my thing. I'm the master of all trades but interested in none. The reason I'm a history major are complicated at best. I am taking a variety of classes (and always have since I knew I couldn't be bogged down in anyone subject). I've found them almost all of them dissatisfactory in terms of what I'm learning. Please note though that this isn't me saying UTD is bad in regards to education. Just that I (as an intelligent guy who went to a really good high school) am not getting anything out of it.
With this reply, I'm not coming back to this thread. I'm even contemplating not coming back to Hatrack for a while. I feel like most times my comments are misconstrued and I feel badgered by a group of people. So I'm taking a break. I need to go and do something else, because this place is being more harmful than beneficial to me at the moment.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Huh. Poor guy.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Did I just make someone leave Hatrack?
EDIT: Well, I'm terribly sorry and sad, if that's the case. If you're still reading, pfesh. I certainly didn't mean to be taken as horribly offensive. Considering I am a liberal arts major, though, taking English, History and Politics, plus other classes on the side for similar reasons that pfresh is, I should say that I'm not just making things up.
I believe that it is important that many people in business have liberal arts degrees because I think, like any field, it widens the view of the company considerably.
quote:I'm the master of all trades but interested in none.
I suppose I am the opposite. I'm interested it a lot of areas, but I am the master of none, really. Because I'm not passionate about either.
Also, the transition of a student from a high school to a University can be a difficult one, however good the school.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
No. Someone who insulted a lot of people just decided to play victim.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
You're not nearly that influential. Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
*schniff*
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
err ... oops? I've been reading the thread all day wondering when I should interject and perhaps turn the conversation elsewhere ... I guess that ship sailed though. Oh well. So ... Does anyone have any suggestions where to definately NOT go to school for a History major?
(the tounge is sticking out in a cheekish sort of witty way, not at anyone or anything in particular. )
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
*bump*
Ok, so now I'm going to ask a few more specific questions. First off, is where I get my undergraduate degree very important, considering I will most likely be going for a graduate degree? and If I decide not to get my graduate degree, does the name of where I went to school mean much on job applications? and In both of those scenario's, is a state university (FSU) likely to be better thought of than a smaller private university which doesn't really have a highly recognizable name?
Basically I want to know if it really matters where I go to school. I have a short list now, and the final verdict will most likely come as a result of A) Me visiting the schools and B) Me being accepted to the schools. Any thoughts on the usefullness of stressing out over this issue would be appreciated.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
And before anyone mentions the whole above shenanigan with pfresh and all, the schools on my short list are schools that I am almost positive I will enjoy going to, and if I go there and visit them and have a bad feeling, they go off the list. If everything feels good and looks good (as in I have done a lot of research), then I don't know there's anything else I can do to ensure I dont' have a bad experience. Though any succinct thoughts on that subject would be appreciated also.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Yes and no.
Yes. Graduate schools have very few slots in any given major, so if you go to a less-than-prestigious undergraduate, you can forget Harvard, Princeton, Yale, etc. Regardless of your grades or accomplishments.
No. Why do you need to go to Harvard, Princeton, or Yale? Go to a place that makes you happy, and don't worry about some silly competition to be able to drop the biggest name.
The vast majority of people don't go to Ivy League schools, and educated hard-workers generally turn out just fine regardless of which (accredited) university they attend.
(Personal story to follow . . . )
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
Any chance of elaboration on which undergraduate schools have a particularly high rate of acceptance into respected graduate schools? I've looked for this information and can't seem to find it.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
When I was getting ready to graduate from high school, I had some pretty phenomenal SAT scores, that attracted attention from all kinds of high-powered universities. But we were poor, and my grades were (probably) not good enough to earn me a scholarship at some of those schools, though I might have gotten admitted. At a less prestigous local school, I was more likely to get a scholarship.
My father convinced me that I should to a local school. His argument was that I was going to grad school anyway. (Nobody actually asked me . . . ) As he said, nobody ever asked their doctor where their BS degree was from. People cared about where the MD was from. He felt I could stay home now, and go to a more prestigious school for my Ph.D. (and not get burned out in undergrad.)
He was wrong.
I went to a relatively unknown private, Catholic university. The total enrollment was 6,000 or so.
As an undergraduate, I had very nearly straight A's. (I can count on one hand the number of B's I had. With fingers to spare.) I took more coursework than I needed to, and ended up graduating with 145 out of 120 credits. I was in the honors program, which involved extra coursework and extra papers in normal courses. I was in at least two honor societies. I was in student government for two years. I was in the Honor Student Association, and I was the vice president for two years. I also published the newsletter for the HSA for two years. I was the Editor-in-Chief of the student newspaper by my sophomore year. During my junior year, I worked an internship as a researcher at Oak Ridge National Laboratory in Tennessee. During my senior year, at my campus, I worked in an NIH-funded project studying the spread of HIV in South Florida. I also worked as a tutor in the learning center for three years. I won a closet-fuil of awards, including the highest honor awarded at the university. I also had unbelievable GRE scores. (Did I mention that I'm a minority member?)
When I was done, I applied to every Ivy League school for graduate school. I also applied to UNC-Chapel Hill, Clemson, and Old Dominion University.
Every Ivy League school denied me admission out of hand. Chapel Hill waitlisted me before rejecting me. Clemson and Old Dominion both offered me fellowship/assistantship combinations, and I went to Clemson.
But in the end, my father was not so wrong.
I went to school in a wonderful, nurturing, loving environment, which was totally the opposite of my high school experience. I had a lot of friends, I had a lot of success, and I had a lot of fun. I matured an awful lot between high school and grad school, and Clemson was absolutely wonderful for me as well. I loved the area; I loved the people. I had a full life. I was happy.
I've never had any significant difficulty finding a job since then, even without an Ivy League name opening doors for me. And, to be honest, I think I got nurtured more along the way than I would have otherwise.
So I'm not so sure things really turned out for the worse.
I say go where you will be happy, and don't give much thought to where the school ranks, unless that is truly the only measure that exists for you. (And if it is, consider broadening your perspective.)
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I did a little checking afterward. A school like Yale, for example, might only have a dozen or so incoming grad student spaces. Guess whose students got first dibs on them?
If you want a Ph.D. from Yale, and FSU is not good enough, then you pretty much need to go to Yale straight through.
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
Actually, there's a movement in the humanities where graduate schools prefer students from other universities to keep from doing "academic in-breeding." So if you want to go to Yale for graduate studies in a humanities field, you should try to get into the other Ivy league schools.
blacwolve, have you been looking for internships in areas other than political science? I'm certainly not planning on going into marketing, but I took a job working as a marketing assistant after my freshman year of college because it was fairly interesting, paid decently, and, more importantly, a good resume builder. Having a "real job" on my resume has helped out a lot, I think, in landing other opportunities.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Mostly, I've been looking at data analysis. I can't really think of anything else I'm at all qualified for.
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
I switched out of a great music industry program into a great marketing program and still managed to maintain the music industry concentration.![[Smile]](smile.gif)
)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
You have no idea how much I love that city.![[Evil]](graemlins/evil.gif)
This is a generalization, mind, so I'm not saying that there aren't good business programs anywhere, nor that there aren't creative and intellegent business majors. But interviewers can't know how creative, intellegent, or good at learning their applicants are, so they too need to generalize.![[Razz]](tongue.gif)