This is topic Christams vs Holidays, a moral dilema in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.


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Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
 
Some Christians are mad at companies and governments when they replace the word Christmas with the word Holidays. To them it is an attempt at lessening the importance of Christmas, and Christ, in American culture, government, and business.

They complain that it hurts no one to be wished a Merry Christmas. Even if they are not Christian, they should accept the wish in the spirit it was given.

However, by removing Christmas from this standard token useage, it will push Christ out of the holiday.

They usually argue, if a Christian wishes a non-Christian a Merry Christmas than what harm is done to that non-Christian?

But what about the Non-Christians who work at those stores. Is it not a bit false, does it not weaken the word Christmas, to have non-believers wishing it upon everyone they meet. If Belle or Dagone wishes me a "Merry Christmas" I know the depth of meaning that they have for that word. If Star-Lisa, Rivka, Storm Saxon wishes me a "Merry Christmas" aren't they really stealing they Christ out of Christmas?

And if you are head of personel at a large corporation of thousands of stores, should you force your employees, Christian and Non-Christian alike, to utter a phrase which has deep signifigance for some, and none for others?

The threat to Christ in Christmas is not that more sales-people are saying Happy Holidays, but that for too long, too many people have said Merry Christmas who did not truly believe in Christmas. They drug the phrase out of the temple and into the money-changers. With repeated formulaic useage, they turned it into a sales phrase, not a blessing. They, who wish it without meaning, are much more of a danger than those who do not say it at all.

Put the sanctity back in Christmas, don't let them wish you a generic merry Christmas. Save the Holidays for the stores, but if you truly believe, wish them a deep heart felt true Christmas in return.
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
As an aside, I'm not sure how I'd feel if I offered a heartfelt "Happy Holidays," careful to keep Christ out of it, only to have someone lean forward, their eyes narrowed, to spitefully hiss "Merry Christ-mas" at me. [Smile]
 
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
 
I like the point that by turning it into a sales pitch is really the worst thing that could happen to the holiday.

Thankfully, I've never been forced at my job to say Merry Christmas. It may be my holiday of choice, and my favorite of the year, but I always wish people "Happy Holidays" because its a phrase the celebrates goodwill to ALL men. I've been yelled at quite a few times by old ladies and men who wished me a Merry Christmas and would refuse to leave my counter until I wished them a Merry Christmas as well. If I weren't getting a new job where I need to lay low to set a good first impression, I would be wishing people "Happy Kwanzaa" just to get some reaction.
 
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
 
quote:
They, who wish it without meaning, are much more of a danger than those who do not say it at all.

Put the sanctity back in Christmas, don't let them wish you a generic merry Christmas.

With all due respect, I find that attitude insufferably elitist. I am not a Christian, but I celebrate and love Christmas. Why should I be charged with cheapening someone else's religious convictions by merely uttering the ritual phrase of greeting for a holiday that I celebrate?

And even if I didn't celebrate it, how could it hurt you? Does it offend a Jew if you wish them a Happy Hannukah? Where's the harm in extending to someone the greeting that goes with their holiday in recognition of the fact that you know it is time for their holiday?

And I would remind everyone who complains about taking the Christ out of Christmas that he was not actually there to begin with. There are a lot of people here with more knowledge of the scriptures than I have who could explain to anyone who cares exactly how we know Jesus wasn't born in December. But I would add to that the fact that the reason we have Christmas in December is that the early Church found it couldn't abolish the pagan Saturnalia without enraging the Roman populace, so they Christianized it in order to allow people their holiday.

I celebrate Christmas because it is part of my culture. I call it Christmas because that is what it is called. I suppose I could say "Io, Saturnalia!" instead of "Merry Christmas", but who would know or care what that meant? We don't call it that anymore. I could insist on calling it "Yule", but then I'd risk having people think I was a neo-pagan. I could call it "Solstice", but that would be the same risk and would be inaccurate. I could say "Merry Day-After-The-Day-After-The-Birthday-Of-The-Current-Emperor-Of-Japan", but who has the time for that crap?

"Merry Christmas" is part of our culture. And frankly, it's a part of our culture that I am proud of and am heartily sick of seeing under attack.
 
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
Well, I actually don't use Merry Christmas unless I'm fairly sure there is no one of another faith or a person of no faith around. In the stores, if someone wishes me Merry Christmas I will respond with a Merry Christmas of my own. If they say Happy Holidays then I say the same back.

The truth is, there is more than one holiday this time of year. It hurts me, as a Christian, not at all to keep that in mind. Now, some of the efforts go too far. Calling trees "Holiday trees" is a little much, the tree is a symbol that has long been linked with the celebration of Christmas, regardless of how it began it's now culturally a Christmas tree. But the holiday time around the end of December is not simply used for Christians to celebrate the birth of Christ. I do celebrate that, but I wish everyone joy in the season, regardless of their faith or lack thereof, because I want to share my joy. I do have that command about loving my neighbors after all, and if my neighbors are Jewish then I will respect them and wish them Happy Holidays or Happy Hanukkah.

Personally, I love the colors of Hanukkah. The silver and blue and white is much more pleasing to the eye than red and green. When my kids school had a fundraiser and sold wrapping paper I was tempted to buy some Hanukkah paper just because it was so lovely!

Oh, and Merry Christmas Dan. [Smile] That was definitely a heart felt sentiment not meant to offend. [Wink]
 
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
 
Verily, if you believe in Christmas an important cultural holiday, then by all means you should feel free to wish people a "Merry Christmas."

I took the point of the argument as saying that people should be free to wish "Merry Christmas" if that's what they believe or celebrate, but we shouldn't force anyone to say it, and those who do celebrate shouldn't throw a tantrum because someone wished them "Happy Holidays" instead.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
I wish we could take the Christ out of Christmas. In a secular sense, not in a religious one. I mean it's just such a fun holiday. And all the good stuff, the feasting, the familiy, the tree and decorations, the gift giving, etc. are originally pagan anyway. I wish I could participate and share in these celebrations (and hey the same thing is true for Easter too, both that the pagan parts are the good ones and I wish it had wider acceptance) without the strong Christian overtones.
 
Posted by dh (Member # 6929) on :
 
Frankly, I've pretty much resigned myself to the fact that the Christmas that is celebrated in the society at large has nothing to do with the Christian meaning of the holiday. It annoys me that people are trying to replace the word Christmas with "Holidays" because it is consciously anti-christian, but hey, there is already almost no Christian content. The only authentically Christian holiday that we have left is Good Friday. And perhaps Thanksgiving, but even that is debateable.

Perhaps we should start celebrating the birth of Christ at the same time as the Eastern Orthodox church, I believe somewhere around January 8th. Then we wouldn't be competing with what is essentially a pagan holiday.

However, in the meantime, I will continue to wish a heartfelt Merry Christmas to everyone and anyone.
 
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
 
"Holidays" isn't anti-Christian, its pro-inclusion. And I just because some people celebrate Christmas secularly doesn't mean its lost all its significance to those of faith.

I think its interesting that you consider Thanksgiving to be Christian. First time I've heard that.
 
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
 
Thanksgiving is not a Christian holiday. It's an American version of the harvest feasts that many cultures around the world have celebrated since the dawn of man. True, the first Americans to celebrate it were Christians. But so were the first Americans to celebrate Independence Day, and no one has ever called that a Christian holiday.

As for the phrase "Happy Holidays", I have no issue with it in and of itself. It's when people act as though we must all use it exclusively, eschewing the word "Christmas" at all, that I get annoyed. I understand that many people in this culture don't celebrate Christmas. I'm fine with that. But most of us do, and it's time to stop pretending that we are trying to oppress everyone else and force everyone to adopt the same holiday practices we have.

Christmas is an important part of my culture, and trying to deny me my "Merry Christmas" on the grounds that I'm not a Christian, or you're not a Christian, or some theoretical person who may or may not be within earshot is not a Christian is much closer to oppression than my saying it to you in the first place. Just accept it with the goodwill with which it was intended, and shut up.

I myself don't celebrate Cinco de Mayo, but I would be regarded as the worst kind of monster if I went up to someone else and said they weren't allowed to celebrate it themselves because it offends me as a non-Mexican.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
Veriyl,
But there's a significant contingent of people who are actively trying to force Christianity on everyone else and we also have a long history of treating non-Christians as second-class citizens at best. It's not like people are getting upset with no basis here. Even the uproar about people make it a standard practice to use an inclusive holiday greeting shows that there is something to be concerned about. As I've said across a whole bunch of cases, Christianity is not de facto being attacked by removing it from its priviledged place and setting it on equal footing with all other religions.
 
Posted by dh (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Shanna:
"Holidays" isn't anti-Christian, its pro-inclusion. And I just because some people celebrate Christmas secularly doesn't mean its lost all its significance to those of faith.

I think its interesting that you consider Thanksgiving to be Christian. First time I've heard that.

Well, I don't know about American thanksgiving, but the Act of Parliament that created Thanksgiving Day in Canada described it as "A Day of Thanksgiving to Almighty God." Sure, it's a harvest holiday. It was also a Christian one originally. Like I said, it's debateable now.

Oh, and pro-inclusion? In many cases, that's newspeak for anti-christian, or anti-western, or whatever. How about renaming Ramadan "The Annual Day of Fasting" so that non-Muslims don't feel left out? Or Hannukah could be called "The Candle Holiday". Or whatever. It's ridiculous.

But like I also said, it's a little too late to be griping about these things, because the de-christianizing of Christmas started well before the de-christianizing of its name. It is now a pagan (or secular, if you prefer, it's all the same to me) holiday. Let the pagans have their Christmas, and then we can have ours, without all the fluff.
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
The "Christmas" that is celbrated in the stores, centered around jingle bells, Santa, reindeer, snowmen, holly and mistletoe, is very different from from the Christmas that I celebrate, which is mainly concerned with family and the rememberance of the birht of Jesus Christ. In fact, they are so different that almost the only thing they have in common is the name and the date. As such is doesn't really bother me that they stop using the word "Christmas".

It does not bother me to be wished "Happy Holidays", but in my mind it just translates to "Merry Christmas". I don't even notice when one is said instead of the other.

I believe that the push toward "Happy Holidays" is part motivated by inclusionary ideals by some, but by others it is anti-christian. I don't let it bother me either way. They can't take my Christmas away, and I wouldn't mind if they managed to take away the Coca-Cola "Christmans".
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
quote:
But there's a significant contingent of people who are actively trying to force Christianity on everyone else and we also have a long history of treating non-Christians as second-class citizens at best.
I think you are overstating the situation by using the word "force".
 
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
 
The number of Christians who still treat non-Christians as second-class citizens is not nearly as large as the number of members of the Church of Political Correctness who treat non-members as second-class citizens. I will not give into their tyranny by pretending that Christmas--and Christianity itself!--is not an important part of my culture and historical roots. I myself am not Christian, but that doesn't mean I've forgotten that I came from Christians, and that my culture was forged by Christians.
 
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
 
Who is asking you to do that, Verily?
 
Posted by dh (Member # 6929) on :
 
Um... just about everybody.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
dh,
You really dont get it, do you? When people are saying "wish people Happy Holidays." they are including all the people who celebrate holidays other than Christmas. There is no renaming of Christmas. "Happy Holidays" is not renaming Christmass to something else. It's including all the other holidays too. So, instead of saying "The ony holiday that we endorse is Christmas." they are saying "Whichever of the holidays you celebrate (which also includes Christmas), have a good one."
 
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
 
Well, how? I can't remember the last time I saw people running around with nightsticks beating people up for saying "Merry Christmas." Who is saying you can't celebrate Christmas and its personal importance for you?

I think Porteiro has it right that "Happy Holidays" isn't going to force anyone to forsake their Christian heritage.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
No one is stopping you from celebrating Christmas. Nor is nearly anyone telling you to ignore the christian history of our various countries.

The personal sphere is very different from the public one. What you do in your personal sphere is your business. The problem comes in when you try to force things into the public sphere (like endorsement of a particular religion) that don't belong there, thus making a place where all should be included the property of one group.
 
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
 
I'm not endorsing Christianity when I say "Merry Christmas". Like I've said numerous times, I am not a Christian. I do not endorse any religion, because I do not follow any religion. My use of the phrase "Merry Christmas" is not an endorsement of religion, it is a set phrase used as a ritual greeting for a holiday that happens to be one of the most important holidays of my culture. If you tell me I can't say "Merry Christmas" in public, you are telling me to keep my culture private. And I refuse to do that.
 
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
 
Cause I'm curious, what is your culture? What's Christmas' significance if not a religious one?

And no one is saying people should be banned from saying "Merry Christmas" in public. Just like they shouldn't be banned for saying "Happy Holidays" if that's in their hearts.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
I'm not telling you as an individual not to say that, although I will note that saying it to people who don't celebrate the holiday can be considered a little rude. I'm saying that it's not something the government should be promoting.
 
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
 
Personally, I am deeply, deeply offended by the concept of 'holidays'. As an atheist, I resent being told that any particular day is more 'holy' than another. It's just a day, ok? Don't push your fake beliefs in some religious pseudo-concept of 'holyness' on me; I'll have none of it. You'll wish me a happy week off, or be the worse for it. [Mad]
 
Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
 
As an interesting aside to the debate here: The company I worked at 2 christmasses ago had gotten very paranoid about political correctness. In previous years most teams had setup "Secret Santa" gift exchanges (with voluntary participation, you had the option of joining or not). That year a memo went out to all the supervisors that they couldn't call it "Secret Santa" if they wanted to do that, but they could have a "Winter Gift Exchange." We all thought this was pretty stupid, but could at least see where they were coming from. Even though it was a mandatory thing, since the supervisors organized the exchange it could be seen as officially sanctioned by the company, etc etc.

That's not the dumb part.
The dumb part is that at the same time there was a salvation army christmas tree in the breakroom where everybody who donated would get their name put on a little cardboard angel ornament hanging on the tree. Call me crazy, but aren't ANGELS a bit more overtly religious than Santa Claus?

--Enigmatic
 
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
 
Happy holiweek, KoM.

[Smile]
 
Posted by dh (Member # 6929) on :
 
[ROFL]
 
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
 
Curses, too slow!
 
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
 
Er - it was clear that this was a joke intended to show the ridiculousness of quarreling over a totally secular holiday like Christmas, right?
 
Posted by dh (Member # 6929) on :
 
Yes, it was clear. It was also very funny.
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
*doesn't wish KoM anything*

*waits to see how I'll be the worse for it*
 
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
 
quote:
Cause I'm curious, what is your culture?
American. Specifically, European-American. Even more specifically, Anglo-American, in that my ancestors came to this country from England before this even was a country.

quote:
What's Christmas' significance if not a religious one?
It's cultural. It's a part of American culture. It's a part of Western culture. I don't see why this is so hard for people to understand. In this era, when diversity means we all have to do everything differently from everybody else--instead of what it originally meant, and in my opinion should mean, that we all form a single culture borrowing the best from everybody*--Christmas is one of the few celebrations left that Americans can have just because it's there. Because it's fun. Because we love it. Christmas is only a religious holiday insofar as individual Christians wish to keep it so. But when I celebrate Christmas, I am not celebrating the birth of Jesus--which, again, did not happen anywhere on the calendar near Christmas anyway.

(*Edit: I really should clarify that, as it's bound to be misunderstood. I don't mean I think we should all do things the same. We should not all be forced to observe the same things. I'm just frustrated that political correctness has taken this country over to the point where we can't even have nationwide things anymore because to do so would be "exclusionary". I don't feel that it would be, and I wish we had more holidays that we could all get into as a nation instead of splitting off into our little ethnic groups and doing everything that way.)

I'll remind everyone again that the only reason we call it "Christmas" instead of "Saturnalia" is that the Church wanted to discourage the Saturnalia festivals, which they saw as debauched, but which they could not simply ban because of the massive public outcry it would cause. So they declared that the Roman people could still have their huge December holiday, but now it was to be called "Christmas" and it was to be a festival of peace and piety instead of drinking and sex.

That's how long this has been around, folks. Christmas pre-dates Christ. A good number of the actual traditions have nothing to do with Christianity, but are taken directly from the Roman Saturnalia and the Germanic Yule. Unlike many of the holy days of the Christian calendar, it did not originate as a Christian holiday. It, like Easter, was a blend of Christian and pagan rites that was embedded in Western cultures before Christianity ever took over. Given, then, that Christmas is such a long-standing and important part of Western culture, why should anyone begrudge us our celebrations of it--or even just our use of its ritual greeting phrase in public--merely because Christianity itself is not as universal in this culture as it once was? For some of us, it was never a Christian holiday to begin with.
 
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
 
As an aside, Norwegians get around this problem in two easy ways :

1. We keep the old word, 'jul', for the holiday. No Christian connotations.

2. We don't get our panties in a twist about totally irrelevant issues.
 
Posted by dh (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Verily the Younger:
quote:
Cause I'm curious, what is your culture?
American. Specifically, European-American. Even more specifically, Anglo-American, in that my ancestors came to this country from England before this even was a country.

quote:
What's Christmas' significance if not a religious one?
It's cultural. It's a part of American culture. It's a part of Western culture. I don't see why this is so hard for people to understand. In this era, when diversity means we all have to do everything differently from everybody else--instead of what it originally meant, and in my opinion should mean, that we all form a single culture borrowing the best from everybody--Christmas is one of the few celebrations left that Americans can have just because it's there. Because it's fun. Because we love it. Christmas is only a religious holiday insofar as individual Christians wish to keep it so. But when I celebrate Christmas, I am not celebrating the birth of Jesus--which, again, did not happen anywhere on the calendar near Christmas anyway.

I'll remind everyone again that the only reason we call it "Christmas" instead of "Saturnalia" is that the Church wanted to discourage the Saturnalia festivals, which they saw as debauched, but which they could not simply ban because of the massive public outcry it would cause. So they declared that the Roman people could still have their huge December holiday, but now it was to be called "Christmas" and it was to be a festival of peace and piety instead of drinking and sex.

That's how long this has been around, folks. Christmas pre-dates Christ. A good number of the actual traditions have nothing to do with Christianity, but are taken directly from the Roman Saturnalia and the Germanic Yule. Unlike many of the holy days of the Christian calendar, it did not originate as a Christian holiday. It, like Easter, was a blend of Christian and pagan rites that was embedded in Western cultures before Christianity ever took over. Given, then, that Christmas is such a long-standing and important part of Western culture, why should anyone begrudge us our celebrations of it--or even just our use of its ritual greeting phrase in public--merely because Christianity itself is not as universal in this culture as it once was? For some of us, it was never a Christian holiday to begin with.

Which is why I was saying that it's probably better to stop giving December 25th any pretense of being a Christian Christmas and simply let it revert to being a pagan holiday. We can celebrate the birth of Christ anytime. Same goes for Easter.
 
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
 
quote:
1. We keep the old word, 'jul', for the holiday. No Christian connotations.
See, if we could have done that, this would all be so much easier. If we could have kept the name "Yule" from the Germanic originators of the English language, or "Saturnalia" from the Romans, then this wouldn't even be an argument. Unfortunately, those words aren't available to me because "Yule" would make me sound like a neo-pagan, and "Saturnalia" wouldn't even be understood except by Rome enthusiasts.

quote:
2. We don't get our panties in a twist about totally irrelevant issues.
What, there's no political correctness in Norway?
 
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 
You know, my favorite holiday phrase has always been "Season's Greetings!"

When i decided i wanted to be more secular with my Christmas cards (hypocrisy acknowledge and enjoyed [Smile] ) That's what I would write instead of "Merry Christmas" when i signed them. I thought that was the most non-religious thing I could write.

Plus, I always loved that part in Santa Claus: The Movie where the roof opens at the north pole and all the snow comes tumbling in and they call it "Seasons Greetings" [Smile]
 
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Verily the Younger:
quote:
2. We don't get our panties in a twist about totally irrelevant issues.
What, there's no political correctness in Norway?
Well, I wouldn't go quite that far, but there certainly isn't the hysteria about it that you get here.
 
Posted by dh (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Verily the Younger:
quote:
2. We don't get our panties in a twist about totally irrelevant issues.
What, there's no political correctness in Norway?
KoM has his own criteria to establish what is relevant and what is not.
 
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
 
While that is certainly true, I don't see how it applies here. What could be more irrelevant than the label we attach to some particular sequence of days?
 
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
 
Just found this on Wikipedia:

quote:
In the Scandinavian Germanic languages, the term Jul covers both Yule and Christmas, and is also occasionally used to denote other holidays in December, e.g., "jødisk jul" or "judisk jul" for Hanukkah.
Is that true, KoM? What an interesting approach that would be. We could all just wish each other a Happy Yule, and let each individual decide for themselves whether it means the Christian Yule, the Jewish Yule, the African-American Yule, the Neo-Pagan Yule, or the Secular Yule. Controversial, but perhaps not without its merits?
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
Verily,
Christmas is not a nationwide thing. It's nowhere close. There is a siginificant section of the populace who definitely do not celebrate Christmas. It's the idea that "Everybody who is a real American celebrates Christams." that makes up the majority why people find it offensive.
 
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
 
Go to a department store. Turn on a television. Listen to people's conversations. Anywhere in the country. Christmas.

Just because Christmas is not celebrated by every single person in the entire country does not mean it is not a nationwide holiday.

quote:
It's the idea that "Everybody who is a real American celebrates Christams." that makes up the majority why people find it offensive.
And who, exactly, ever made that asinine assertion?
 
Posted by dh (Member # 6929) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by King of Men:
While that is certainly true, I don't see how it applies here. What could be more irrelevant than the label we attach to some particular sequence of days?

At the very least, it relieves monotony.

But that is a rather personal thing. "One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind." --Romans 14:5
 
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Verily the Younger:
Just found this on Wikipedia:

quote:
In the Scandinavian Germanic languages, the term Jul covers both Yule and Christmas, and is also occasionally used to denote other holidays in December, e.g., "jødisk jul" or "judisk jul" for Hanukkah.
Is that true, KoM? What an interesting approach that would be. We could all just wish each other a Happy Yule, and let each individual decide for themselves whether it means the Christian Yule, the Jewish Yule, the African-American Yule, the Neo-Pagan Yule, or the Secular Yule. Controversial, but perhaps not without its merits?
I must say I have never heard the expression, but then, it's not as though Norway has a lot of Jews anyway. Perhaps they are thinking of Denmark or Sweden? The closest I've heard to this would be 'russe-jul', Russian Christmas, which because of the Gregorian calendar falls thirteen days after ours.

Edit : OK, this was in response to the 'jødisk jul', Jewish Christmas, thing. As for the old tradition of Yule, I suspect the Aesirtru would call it 'juleblot', Yule-Blood (though I also suspect they rarely sacrifice even a horse to Odin these days, much less a man), to distinguish what they are doing from the Christian version.
 
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
 
quote:
I must say I have never heard the expression, but then, it's not as though Norway has a lot of Jews anyway. Perhaps they are thinking of Denmark or Sweden?
Quite possibly. They weren't specific, so "Scandinavian Germanic languages" could have meant Swedish or Danish or Icelandic. Or, alternatively, it could just be wrong. This is Wikipedia, after all.
 
Posted by tern (Member # 7429) on :
 
I just don't understand how "Merry Christmas" is offensive, and "Happy Hannukah" or "Happy Kwanzaa" is not. How does that work? Does the fact that Christianity is the majority religion in the United States make it offensive to celebrate while minority religions are just hunky dory? If you're going to whack one, whack them all, don't discriminate against one religion.

Ah well, here's to the ACLU: "We don't hate religion, we just hate Christianity!"

What also doesn't make sense to me is the retailers and the politicians who try not to use it. To me, it seems like it's killing the goose that laid the golden eggs. Christmas season is the biggest retail season for stores (and not because of Kwanzaa), and Christianity is the majority religion - even if many don't pay more than lip service - and that's a lot of shoppers and a lot of voters. Why would they want to lose shoppers or votes? It just doesn't make sense.
 
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 
Tern, that's because politicians and retailers both understand that saying "Happy Holidays" isn't at all squelching "Christmas". It's including all their constituents and customers regardless of what holiday they celebrate. It also makes a much tidier soundbite and store display than "Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah, Happy Kwanzaa" and doesn't run the risk of forgetting that tiny constituency or group of customers who may not celebrate any of the three but still like to vote and shop.

Your very own confusion on this should be indication that I'm probaby right since our country produces few people as saavy about offending as few people as possible as politicians and retailers. The people who are going to be offended by someone saying "Happy Holidays" are probably people who are going to be offended by something in any case because they enjoy it.

Squicky wrote:
quote:
although I will note that saying it to people who don't celebrate the holiday can be considered a little rude.
Sure, it can be, but if it is I think the problem is with the recipient. It's one thing to choose to say "Happy Holidays" with the intent of including everyone. It's something entirely different to be offended by any phrase for the season uttered with good will. It's downright petty, selfish, and mean spirited to find reason for discord in a heartfelt expression of goodwill. Such people need to get over themselves.

That said, I do believe that governmental offices need to make the effort to be all-inclusive at this time of year. Personally I don't care if that means trying to cover all the cultures individually or together via "Happy Holidays". I prefer the latter in most cases because it is accurate and concise.
 
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
 
Who says the are less offensive?

I know several Jewish groups are get upset with the "Happy Hannukah". Hannukah is not that big of a holiday for Judaism. Its certainly not as important as the High Holy Days, which get almost no public attention. Yet marketing people are determined to push Hannukan as some kind of "Christmas-Lite for Jews" in order to sell them the same Christmas junk that the Christians are buying.

Tern, you hear Merry Christmas 100 times a day, but hear Happy Kwanzaa twice, and you complain about the Kwanzaa? If the Kwanzaa bothers you that much, imagine what teh Merry Christmas does to non-believers?
 
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
 
I don't understand why a store would lose shoppers if an employee chose to say "Happy Holidays" to her customers instead of Merry Christmas. I can't believe some people (including my own family) are offended to be wished a happy holiday. How is that offensive? Is a store employee trying to keep me from celebrating Christmas? Are they trying to keep me from being Christian? Are they trying to force me to celebrate some non-religious combination of holidays? No. They're just wishing me a good holiday season, and they don't know what holiday I celebrate, if any. Or perhaps they DO know I celebrate Christmas, but they don't. Either way it takes nothing from me, and it actually gives me a kind greeting - which is more than I get on most ordinary days.

Now, congress having a "holiday tree" instead of a Christmas tree is a little silly. Not really offensive to me; again, it takes NOTHING away from me; but it is silly.
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
quote:

Ah well, here's to the ACLU: "We don't hate religion, we just hate Christianity!"

I think you're wrong there. The ACLU hates the establishment of any religion, tern, and there's no religion quite as well-established in this country as Christianity.
 
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
I hear a lot of you saying that Happy Holidays is just an all-encompassing greeting, which includes any December/Winter holiday. I used to agree. I would say Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays, depending. Now, though, I feel it is a deliberate move to replace Merry Christmas with Happy Holidays--not as an all-encompassing greeting, but solely to avoid offending anyone PC enough to get riled up from being wished a Merry Christmas. The result has been people who celebrate Christmas being unable to wish each other a Merry Christmas, unless they check first to make sure no one is around to be offended. Offices pass down the law that the word Christmas is not to be uttered, as do retail establishments.

I work for a public institution, and we have to be careful not to call our Holiday party a Christmas party. That's fine. But what we get is coworkers who are timid about wishing each other Merry Christmas. I volunteered to take care of the music for the party, but I'm thinking I'll just let the restaurant pump music into our room because the dilemma of how to find holiday music that doesn't mention religion or now even Santa Claus is too daunting.

But my real problem is that retail stores are clamoring for their share of Christmas shopping. It's a big season for them financially, and it is all about sell sell sell. Fact is, Christmas is known for gift giving. Kids wake up to a zillion presents under the tree (the Christmas tree, I might add). It's a huge market, and stores aren't going to mention Christmas to me in their ads? Am I missing something? Are there big gift-giving traditions in the other holidays? I know that there is Hannakuh giving, but is it anywhere near the scale of the overdone Christmas giving?

That's not to say I want there to be a decree from the corporations that all of their employees need to wish us a Merry Christmas. I want them to shut up about it, and let their employees say what they want to. Then if someone who doesn't celebrate Christmas gets wished a Merry Christmas, I want them to be graceful enough to say Happy Holidays or whatever they want back--or even politely say, I don't celebrate Christmas, but a Merry Christmas to you. And if someone who does celebrate Christmas gets wished a Happy Holidays or a Happy Hannakuh, or Ramadan or Kwanza or whatever, to be graceful enough to say Thank you and wish them a happy whatever back.

I'm not going to pretend that Christmas doesn't exist, and I don't expect others to pretend that their holidays don't exist.

And finally... most people I know celebrate Christmas. The ones I know who DON'T celebrate Christmas are Christians who believe that it is a pagan holiday. At most, they might have a toned-down Christian version of the holiday. To me, this isn't about taking Christ out of the holiday. If He's in it, He's not put there by stores or offices or any other establishment. If Christ is in the holiday, it's a personal thing for families and that can't be taken away. It's about changing the name of the holiday for stupid PC reasons.

I know plenty of people who celebrate Christmas who aren't Christians, and some who give lip service to Christianity, and some who are dedicated Christians. Christmas is a religious holiday?? Coulda fooled me. Frankly, if you're a religion other than Christian, why not celebrate Christmas anyway? You get tons of gifts, and it's not like there's anything sacred about the holiday (unless you want there to be).
 
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
 
I back up Verily on this issue. I'm an atheist who loves Christmas and delights in telling his Jewish coworker "Merry Christmas" because it's so delightfully ironic that we are both cool with the holiday. Irritatingly, the new head of business operations at the charter school where I work, an atheist like me (but of a militant bent), insists that all school-related holiday stuff say "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greetings" or some other wimp-ass fudge phrase of that nature... despite the fact that 90% of our students are Christian (85% Catholic).

I'd love to hear it called "Yuletide," however. Has a nice ring to it.
 
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
What if I was offended by people saying Happy Hannakuh, or Happy Kwanza, or Happy Ramadan, or Happy Festivus, or Happy whatever?

Could we get those phrases banned, too?

Or don't I matter?
 
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
 
I should start wishing people a Happy Festivus [Smile] .

But what can I, as an atheist leaning agnostic celebrate this time of year? Well, one thing which stands out is that there is the Winter Solstice right near Christmas. It looks like the 22nd this year. Being the shortest day of the year, I can certainly celebrate the fact that my days will be getting longer and longer for the next six months. That should be enough cause for me to celebrate [Smile] .

Of course there are most likely many different peoples that celebrate the solstice. I wonder if there is any group who does it in a secular manner...
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
quote:
Of course there are most likely many different peoples that celebrate the solstice. I wonder if there is any group who does it in a secular manner...
I would say that most of the America already does. [Wink]
 
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
Katarain, where have you seen anyone here saying that specific Hannakah, Kwanza, or Ramadan greetings are okay but "Merry Christmas" is not?

The whole point of businesses encouraging employees to say "Happy Holidays" is to NOT preference one over the others.

And there is a big difference between a business, or a school, asking employees to use a specific greeting when speaking as a representative of the store or school talking to customers or students and the ridiculous examples people are mentioning of getting "in trouble" for being overheard saying "Merry Christmas" in a private conversation. Can anyone point to ONE example of that actually happening, or is it just some posters' exagerated paranoia/hyperbole?
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Katarin said above that her coworkers have become afraid of saying "Merry Christmas" to each other...
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
quote:
insists that all school-related holiday stuff say "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greetings" or some other wimp-ass fudge phrase of that nature... despite the fact that 90% of our students are Christian (85% Catholic).
I don't understand how you think it's right for the school to exclude students just because they only make up like 10% of the population.

---

Honestly, I think that this whole thing is a little bit silly on both sides, but with the history and the makeup of our country, I'm much more inclined to come down on the side of the people that get offended by everything being about Christmas than the people who think that including people who don't celebrate Christmas into things means that you're being anti-Christian.
 
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
quote:
Katarin said above that her coworkers have become afraid of saying "Merry Christmas" to each other...
I know she said that. I'm asking if they have any basis for that fear, or if they're exagerating it. Has anyone ever been reprimanded for such a thing?
 
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
quote:
The whole point of businesses encouraging employees to say "Happy Holidays" is to NOT preference one over the others.
If that were true, and I used to think it was, then I'd be okay with it. But it certainly seems like it's not the case.

And my coworkers aren't "afraid." I WAS exaggerating. But there have been similar conversations.

This whole thing annoys me. Stores want my Christmas dollars, but won't admit it. They say Happy Holidays, but everybody knows what they really mean=Buy your Christmas gifts HERE. After all, they're using traditional christmas decorations, aren't they? And one of the things that bothers me is that non-Christmas celebrators (Or, as I suspect is more often the case... Christian-hating Christmas celebrators) get so offended when they hear someone say Merry Christmas.
 
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
quote:
I'm much more inclined to come down on the side of the people that get offended by everything being about Christmas
This is exactly the attitude that annoys ME. Celebrating Christmas isn't mandatory, but they just happen to live in a country where most people celebrate it. Would I go to an Islamic country and complain about celebrations they have? Would I go to Canada and complain about their emphasis on the Canadian Thanksgiving rather than the American one? Uhh... No.

There is nothing to be offended about. Everything being about Christmas?! Yeah, well, we are celebrating it, and you choose not to participate. That's fine. But getting offended by it? That's just plain stupid.
 
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
 
A Jewish comedian came to our school and said that it's okay to wish your Jewish friends a Merry Christmas. Usually he gets a "Merry !... shit." And no one wants to be wished a merry shit.
 
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
I don't get it.
 
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
I am a Jew, and do not celebrate Christmas. I am not bothered when people wish me a Merry Christmas, or Happy Holiday, or Happy Channukah, or A Nice Day. These are all meant in a friendly way, and are not intended to offend, and no offense is taken.

If someone wishes me a whatever, I will smile warmly, and say "You too!" It is SO not worth my time and energies getting worked up about it.

And as for shopping experiences, if the store has what I want, at a good price, and I don't have to wait in line forever to pay for it, I leave satisfied, no matter how the poor cashier greets me. If not, I leave unsatisfied no matter what the poor cashier says.

Who the heck is going to Wal-Mart for a dose of religion? You want religion, go to church. You want a good deal on shopping, go to Wal-Mart.

Simple.
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
That sure makes sense to me, Tante.
 
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
Merry Christams!
 
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by theamazeeaz:
A Jewish comedian came to our school and said that it's okay to wish your Jewish friends a Merry Christmas. Usually he gets a "Merry !... shit." And no one wants to be wished a merry shit.

This would happen when you wish a Jewish friend a Merry Christmas out of habit (because you say it to everyone), but stop midway, not wanting to offend, because you just remember that that person doesn't celebrate Christmas. He's saying he'd rather have the greeting.
 
Posted by theamazeeaz (Member # 6970) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MrSquicky:
quote:
insists that all school-related holiday stuff say "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greetings" or some other wimp-ass fudge phrase of that nature... despite the fact that 90% of our students are Christian (85% Catholic).
I don't understand how you think it's right for the school to exclude students just because they only make up like 10% of the population.


I'm guessing Catholic school. Or Rhode Island. Which is more like 65% Catholic overall. In the former case you certainly should be able to say Merry Christmas.
 
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
 
I would be insulted if someone suggested that my (atheist) meaning of 'Christmas' was somehow less important than a Christian's.

And the word "Holiday" is only slightly less denominational in the way that in all its original forms it referred to a religious holiday, either "holy" or "hal-" being the earlier word meaning saint or holy personnage.

Even Yule, although used often to mean the winter season, is connected with religion (both Christian and Pre-Christian/Pagan). Although I have to admit Yule is a lot less denominational than "holiday".

Even the "mas" of saying something like "Wintermas" has Christian connotations.

"Winterday" might work. "Midwinter's Day" also would: "Midwinter", "Solsticeday" etc.

Personally, I'm in favour of celebrating "Midwinter" as a universal celebration of the winter season. I do not see this happening in my lifetime or the lifetime of my hypothetical grandchildren, however. People would percieve it as an attack on Christmas. I believe the search for a celebration we can all participate in during the winter is important, simply because so-named Christmas, as well as any of Winter celebrations of the same period, is a beautiful time of year to celebrate.

I would happily change "Christmas" to "Midwinter". It wouldn't change anything for me.

Never going to happen though.

And I would describe Thanksgiving as a religious holiday in the way that it's usually interpreted as thanking a great power for the harvest, rather than the earth or something like that.
 
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
I would happily add an extra secular festival called, let's say, Winterfair. Could we have it in January or Febuary, though? There's a serious dearth of festivites in those months.

Maybe we could just really ramp up the celebration of Presidents Day or MLK Day.
 
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
What would be good holiday foods for the MLK-Day celebration?

Black-and-white cookies?
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
The problem with having Winterfair in January or February is that by then, people are sick of winter and are looking forward to the spring.
 
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
Hmm. Good point.
 
Posted by sweetbaboo (Member # 8845) on :
 
All the more reason to party??
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
I wonder if there is a historical reason for a lack of festivals during January and February. Perhaps it was just too much of a hassle to travel during the winter months.
 
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
In the context of my current job, I'd be more than happy to cancel Christmas simply because I'd like to be able to take those five days off at some other time of year -- in addition to the statutory holiday, my company gives us five "vacation" days that can only be used at Christmastime. I would much prefer to have taken those days in the summer. However, I recognize that I also have other reasons for wanting to cancel Christmas this year in particular.

As to this whole "debate," I can't say that I care one way or the other. I think that if you're offended by Merry Christmas, you're oversensitive; I also think that Happy Holidays is not part of an insidious assault on Christianity.
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
You get five days off? Wow. I only get two.

Is a full week off normal?
 
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
I actually get six days if you include the statutory (federal) holiday, which normally falls on Christmas Day.

Those five days are part of a set of seventeen "RDOs." There's one RDO each month (that you can schedule whenever, but only within the month) and five at Christmastime that are assigned. I put "vacation" in quotes because all of this is on top of actual vacation time (which doesn't have these sorts of restrictions). Some companies assign all seventeen days so that you essentially get every third Friday off, rather than one per month and five at Christmas. In my experience, both practices are not uncommon in my industry -- but I have no idea how common it is in other industries in Canada.
 
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
 
They didn't have any problem with the goddess Pomona, which is the largest symbol on the LA seal. Only with the tiny cross off to the side.

About Happy Holidays: this only became an issue recently. We've been saying that to each other since, well, before I can remember. The difference now is that some organizations are setting policy forbidding references to Christmas. Excluding references is exclusive, by definition of "exclude," and it's the issue.

Wish me a Happy Hanukah or a Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays, and I'll be happy to hear it, but don't tell me what *I* should say.
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
I get from Christmas Eve through New Year's Day off with pay. Of course, I work for a Catholic college that literally shuts down over that period, and I'm still technically on call if our webservers go down or something over break, so YMMV.
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Wow. I get almost no time off. Besides my limited vacation days, I get eight days off per year -- New Years, Memorial, Independence, Labor, 2 for Thanksgiving, and 2 for Christmas.
 
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
Yeah, I have to be on call for at least one of the XRDOs, and at least one person from our group has to be on call every weekend (including holidays).
 
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Will B:
The difference now is that some organizations are setting policy forbidding references to Christmas. Excluding references is exclusive, by definition of "exclude," and it's the issue.

Wish me a Happy Hanukah or a Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays, and I'll be happy to hear it, but don't tell me what *I* should say.

I strongly suspect that such policies are dealing with official corporate/governmental references only, and thus are perfectly within the rights of the entity establishing the policy. There's nothing wrong with standardizing corporate conduct. I'd be very surprised at a corporation actually forbidding an employee from uttering "Merry Christmas" in a personal situation. Requiring sales clerks to say "Happy Holidays" verbatim is no different than requiring employees to say "WelcometoMcDonaldsmayItakeyour order" verbatim instead of "Yo, whatcha want" or whatever else they'd prefer to say.
 
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
Porter: You also work from home, don't you?

I have a pretty good vacation package. It was one of the reasons I took this job. [Smile]
 
Posted by dh (Member # 6929) on :
 
There was quite a controversy over the Happy Holidays/Merry Christmas thing here in Ottawa a few years ago. I wasn't here at the time, but I think there was even a city bylaw that stated that Christmas could only be known as "Holiday" or something. My brother was working at a health-food store at the time, and his boss gave him strict instructions not to say Merry Christmas.

He purposely did it anyway, of course, and the customers would thank him for it.

The controversy died down afterwards. I think they got rid of the bylaw, if my memory is correct and there even was any such thing.
 
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
I get Dec. 23, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, Jan. 2, 3, and 4. Plus weekends--but I always have weekends. So I guess that's 9 vacation days.

Plus, I get 12 vacation days a year (2 or 3 of which have to be used for certain holidays the university takes over the gov. mandated holidays) and government holidays and 8 sick days a year.

Good for me.
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Yeah, I work from home.
 
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I do not have enough vacation days, and I have to go back to Dallas on the 27th because I used all my vacation days in Paris and New York.

However, they also do not count personal or sick days. Don't abuse it, but you can take personal days for things you need to get done, and it isn't recorded. I often leave early on Tuesdays for school because of this, and I'm very grateful.
 
Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :
 
"All I want for the Holidays are my two front teeth..."

Nope, doesn't quite cut it. And after shopping last weekend, I would have been far too tempted to grant people their wish.
 
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by katharina:
I used all my vacation days in Paris and New York.

My heart bleeds for you. [Wink]

I only get Monday the 26th and Monday the 2nd off (since the holidays are on the weekend.) But the plant where Chris works closes down from Christmas to New Year's so I'm taking vacation time to be off with him.
 
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
Wow. I get almost no time off. Besides my limited vacation days, I get eight days off per year -- New Years, Memorial, Independence, Labor, 2 for Thanksgiving, and 2 for Christmas.

Well, you've got me beat. I have off New Year's Day, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day, Thanksgiving Day, and Christmas Day. Six holiday days off for the whole company.

By the way, my kid goes to a Jewish School, and he always has school on Christmas Day. Even this year, when it is on a Sunday. However, he gets off for a ton of Jewish holidays, especially in the fall.
 
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
 
As a member of the LDS church, we don't believe that Jesus was born on or around Christmas time, but in the spring. Although many other Christians are aware of the Roman/pagan connection to the origin of the holiday , I doubt most are. So Christmas isn't even a holy day for me. Additionally, rather than focus on celebration of his birth, His atonement and resurrection are so much more important to Mormons. However, I do enjoy the spirit of the season in which people generally try to be more charitible, loving, and caring and Christians in particular focus on the Savior. If it was just a Christian holiday, I'd just as soon celebrate it all around Easter.

That being said, Christmas to me has a more traditional significance. I enjoy the candy canes, lights, trees, treats, Santa Claus myths, yummy treats, falling snow outside while being warm inside (not trying to be anti-pro-inclusive with you Florida and SoCal folks), and especially meeting with family. I greatly dislike the commercialization. To me, that has taken more out of the meaning of Christmas than the ACLU has.

I guess my point is that I hate to see our holidays neutered to make them more politically correct. Wherever I've been I've always enjoyed the culture and traditions of the people there. Saying our American Christmas holiday is Christian is like saying Halloween is Wiccan. Stop trying to make all our holidays into Labor Day equivalents.
 
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
I have to work on Christmas Eve and Christmas!

Also Easter. What's up with that?
 
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
 
You stupidly accepted a lame-ass job? [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
 
Heh, dkw.

quote:
As a member of the LDS church, we don't believe that Jesus was born on or around Christmas time, but in the spring.
Symbolically, that makes a lot of sense, but I don't see anyone giving up Christmas Carols [Wink] . In The Bleak Midwinter just doesn't have the same meaning when applied to drippy old February.

Despite being an atheist I am totally fascinated by Carols, candles, advent, and all the traditional trappings of the event. I am also fond of the Baby Jesus story. I don't mind people wish me a Merry Christmas because to me Christmas is the name of my celebration, that's all.
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
I think a lot of Christians are aware that it is more likely that Jesus was born in the spring. And we are aware of the pagan solstice celebrations.

Since we can't know the actual day, isn't it a lovely symbol to celebrate light coming into the world during the darkest time of the year?
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
Whoops! For those of us in the northern hemisphere anyway.
 
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
 
I was just going to mention that for my half of my wife's family (still in Argentina), and other South American countries, they celebrate things quite a bit differently--rather like our 4th of July with fireworks, parties, dances, and barbeques.
 
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
 
So what everybody is implying is that Christmas has already gone to public domain, and that Christians have, sorry, already lost their hold on that brand.

Consider this, there are two main forces in the Republican Party--the Social Conservative/Religious Right and the Big Money Corporate Interests. While President Bush has given a lot of lip service to the Religious Right, he hasn't always followed through. However he has done more than many Republican congressmen who have found themselves bought by these big money interests.

Before you yell, yes, Democrats have been bought too. However, this is a Republican internal matter.

What this push for Christmas in the Workplace is about is an powerplay by some Christian Conservative leaders to show that they, not the big-business money men--have the true power.
 
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
quote:
I have to go back to Dallas on the 27th because I used all my vacation days in Paris and New York.

On the plus side, that means you'll be back while we're out there...
 
Posted by Audeo (Member # 5130) on :
 
I enjoy celebrating Christmas, but I often go out of my way to find 'Christmas' cards with non-denominational messages/pictures, just because I know I'm uncomfortable getting overly religious cards from people outside my religion, so I try not to send them to others. The other reason I prefer "Happy Holidays" to "Merry Christmas" is that I include New Years as part of the midwinter festivities. New Years is a western imposed holiday without any significant religious connotations, but people approach it in a more meditative fashion (making resolutions, reviewing the past year, etc) than they often do for the more religious holiday. I enjoy New Years as much as I do Christmas, though they are celebrated in different ways. Christmas is more of a family time, New Years is more of an opportunity to spend time with friends. So in wishing someone "Happy Holidays" I feel like I'm being more inclusive not just on grounds of different religious beliefs, but including what I consider another major holiday. Many people have time off work, as a student I get time off school, and it's generally a time to visit with family and friends. I mean you hardly need a reason to celebrate in July, usually the good weather promotes spontaneous gatherings like barbecues, but in December and January, I'm glad of whatever chance I get to spread some cheer.
 
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
 
I know... maybe if we change the spelling! Why not "Krismus"? Then no sensitive souls will be offended by seeing the name of a god who isn't theirs in the name of the holiday (holuday?).
 
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
You have a problem with Christams?
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Well. . .

ChristAMS points to the idea that Christ claimed to be Jehovah.

[Smile]
 
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Verily the Younger:
quote:
Cause I'm curious, what is your culture?
American. Specifically, European-American. Even more specifically, Anglo-American, in that my ancestors came to this country from England before this even was a country.

quote:
What's Christmas' significance if not a religious one?
It's cultural. It's a part of American culture. It's a part of Western culture. I don't see why this is so hard for people to understand. In this era, when diversity means we all have to do everything differently from everybody else--instead of what it originally meant, and in my opinion should mean, that we all form a single culture borrowing the best from everybody*--Christmas is one of the few celebrations left that Americans can have just because it's there. Because it's fun. Because we love it.
It's not part of my culture.

I am an American and I don't celebrate Xmas. Of course, growing up in America, I have been exposed to many of the trappings of Xmas, but I don't really relate to them. They have nothing to do with me or my religion.

I avoid the stores like the plague this time of year, unless I absolutely need something.

And while I am not offended to be wished a "Merry Xmas" and always respond politely, I don't particularly enjoy it either. I feel as though the well-wisher is assuming that I celebrate Xmas, that everyone celebrates Xmas, which just isn't true. Sometimes I respond with a "Happy Chanukah."

I like being wished a "Happy Holiday" much better, as it feels inclusive to me of all the holidays.

quote:
Originally posted by Leonide:
You know, my favorite holiday phrase has always been "Season's Greetings!"

I like that, too. [Smile]
 
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
 
You can't take the commercialization out of Christmas until you take Christmas out of the commercial.
 
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
 
You could go with a word like the French Noël, which is less obviously religiously connoted.
 
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
 
I don't want religious content removed from *any* holiday. When someone invites me to a Hanukah party, I don't say, only if you don't make any mention of Judaism. When someone tells me he's celebrating Ramadan, I don't change the subject; I ask for details. Why ever would I not? If my perspective is so fragile I have to hide myself from the awareness that others believe differently . . . wow.
 
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
Then it should make perfect sense to you that stores, who are attempting to cater to several faiths of holiday shopper instead of just one, choose greetings that are easily palliable for several holidays [Smile] .

After all, only mentioning one of them would remove the religious content from those other holidays, but not going with specific content in the first place means nobody's religious content is being removed, since there's no necessary implication of religiosity in shopping.
 
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
 
So you're saying that the way to prevent religious content from being removed is to remove religious content.

Understood.
 
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
 
Here's the text of an e-mail I sent out to some of my colleagues at the school where I teach:

In the spirit of changes made at this school to avoid offending non-Christians, here are some important changes to keep in mind for this evening's Winter Party:

1) Secret Santa is now "Secret Holiday Personage"
2) Red and green have been banned in favor of the more neutral beige and tan.
3) Those with mistletoe on their lapels or dresses must turn the offending plant in at the entrance. A stub will be issued so you can pick your sprig back up upon leaving.
4) Large portly men with white beards must shave before attending.
5) All crosses, crucifixes, or other reminders of the "Christ" part of the holiday-formerly-known-as-Christmas must be hidden away.
6) Due to popular demand, the DJ WILL continue playing popular holiday songs, but in newly sanitized versions:
-"Oh Little Town of Bethlehem" is now "Oh Little Town in Disputed Middle Eastern Territory"
-"Oh, Christmas Tree" is now "Oh, Winter Foliage"
-"White Christmas" now begins "I'm dreaming of a snowy holiday"— what's this "white" nonsense, anyway?
-"Joy to the World" is out of the question as it explicitly describes the birth of a man whom not everyone will see as being their deity, and that would possibly be uncomfortable for a vanishingly small minority of hyper-sensitive reactionaries whom it would be foolish to offend...
-"Deck the halls" now begins "deck the halls with faith-neutral ornaments"
-"Twelve Days of Christmas" are now, of course, "Twelve days of Winter Break"

Please keep these adjustments in mind so that we may all enjoy a colorless, flavorless, inoffensive and thoroughly inclusive Winter Party!
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
David,
I'm still wondering why you think it's okay for the school to exclude students because they only make up 10% of the population.

Perhaps you should include on your list that the members of your population who used to be called "second class citizens" are now called "students".

[ December 09, 2005, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: MrSquicky ]
 
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
No. Shopping is not a religious activity, so the absence of religious references is not a removal of significance. You're not saying that Christmas is not significant by not making any religious references whatsoever in a store greeting.

However, whenever you choose to make a greeting about religion, you are making clear one holiday your store has chosen to value -- removing significance from other religious holidays.
 
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
 
More importantly, you are insuring that one store, and all the employees, are using your religion to promote secular, financial gain. Every "Christmas Sale" defines Christmas as mercantile, not religious.
 
Posted by tern (Member # 7429) on :
 
MrSquicky, I'm still wondering why you think it's okay for the school to exclude students because they only make up 90% of the population. Perhaps you should include on your list that the members of the population who used to be called "second class citizens" are now called "Christians".

Really, can anyone imagine pulling this stunt with Ramadan? Or how the Muslims would react?
 
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
 
Term, since when is not giving preferential treatment called exclusion?
 
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
Pulling what stunt with Ramadan? Not giving it exceptional attention? You mean, pretty much the situation we have now?

In DBs case, I do think the school policy goes too far. I think it would be appropriate were teachers allowed to say whatever they wanted . . . with the exception that were they aware a particular student felt excluded by the use of "Merry Christmas" or the like, they were required to use more generic terms.

Or perhaps teachers could be given a list of holiday greetings they had to say at least one time each throughout the day, encompassing all major religious and non-religious traditions, as well as assorted generic greetings [Wink] .
 
Posted by tern (Member # 7429) on :
 
What if we were to rename Ramadan, refuse to use the word Ramadan, etc. The only difference between such a situation and what we have here is that Christianity is the majority religion. Acknowledging someone else's religion isn't exclusion. It's inclusion.
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
quote:

The only difference between such a situation and what we have here is that Christianity is the majority religion.

No, not really.
Before I explain what the obvious differences are, I'd like you to stop for a second and give some thought as to what they might be. Seriously. Because I think that would probably help.
 
Posted by tern (Member # 7429) on :
 
Let me rephrase: IMO, the only operative difference. (And I'm really trying to avoid cheap shots at Islam here, so that cuts out a lot of differences.)
 
Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
 
quote:
Shopping is not a religious activity
That is, quite possibly, the most un-American thing I have ever read on this board.
[Wink]

--Enigmatic
 
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
Lets see, there are still lots of people using the word Christmas, and I don't see anybody renaming it (with the ever-present possible exception of small, largely unknown fringe groups).

So I fail to see how doing those things to Ramadan would be analogous to what's happening now.

One might even say that avoiding specific mention of Christmas is almost exactly parallel to avoiding specific mention of Ramadan, as is currently done by default, excepting the relative populations involved in each.

If you're going to assert what people are doing in saying things like Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas is "renaming" or "refusing to use the word" Christmas, what are people doing to Ramadan by saying Merry Christmas?
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
When Ramadan is a national holiday and provokes shopping frenzies -- and has its own mascot, maybe a slightly gaunt but friendly guy named Caliph Ali who's never actually depicted anywhere because that would be wrong -- and people go around complaining that no one really celebrates Valentine's Day anymore because of all the Ramadan decorations that show up in stores by New Year's Day, tern, you'll have an argument for a parallel.

It's not just a matter of Christianity being the majority religion; it's a matter of the phenomenon of Christmas also being a secular cultural holiday.
 
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
 
Squick... How are they being excluded by our using the word "Christmas"? What the hell kind of freaking wimps are we creating in this nation if they can't even handle other people's having holidays that don't form part of their own belief system. Really, you'd have a point if we were going "Merry Christmas to Christians! The rest of you are going to hell because you're not." But that's not the case. Children need to learn to deal with stuff like this. People with minority viewpoints need to learn that, hello, theirs is a minority viewpoint. It's not dissed or trampled upon, but others aren't going to give up their own practices just to make the odd atheist, for example (points to self), feel more comfortable.

You know tons about psychology. How healthy can it be for society to sanitize and gloss over the differences between cultures and religions? What good does it do? I am all for including Hannukah and Kwanza decorations/greetings/celebrations. That's one thing. That's what schools did when I was in school. But this new invention of secular holiday terminology (how's that for an oxymoron) to soothe possible conflicts is ridiculous.
 
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
 
On the flip side, when was the last time you went to Target and the people wished you a Happy Ramadan?

Would you be happy if you were told by your boss that it was part of you job to wish everyone a very merry Yon Kippur? (OK, a merry Yon Kippur is not really appropriate, but you get the idea).

You seem to imply that being a minority is something people need to deal with, as if it were a handicap, a sin, an act of rebellion against the majority. Being Islamic is a choice that sets you apart from the majority of society, like nose rings or a mullett. Any inconvience is your fault for being the minority. I am afraid the US doesn't work that way.
 
Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
 
It really is just part of life.

If I were to move to China, I would not be offended at manifestations of the majority culture. If people did things that were in line with their culture, I would not take those as being signs that they were trying to exclude me. I would form opinions about them, sure, and I might not even like all of them. But the things they did would have everything to do with who they were, and nothing to do with who I was.

Now, that said, it is likely I would end up gravitating to those places that catered to my needs as an American better. So there is truly a financial, capitalist reason for people to want to be more hospitable and welcoming to small groups.

But let's face it. Even Christmas as we know it today is a conglomoration of elements of holiday celebrations from all over the world. Christmas already is a celebration of diversity. That will only become more so as the years go on. We'll continue to see elements of the various holidays of the world incorporated into our national celebrations, and likely even into our homes.

Happy Holidays is, to me, a perfectly rational means of reflecting this expansion. I would LOVE to see more multicultural displays for the same reason I would love to visit China. I love it when I get wished a happy religious celebration of a denomination other than my own, because I know how much that holiday means to the wisher.

I fear that the people who get uptight about the "inclusive" use of Happy Holidays are as guilty of intolerance towards other religions as they're accusing the people who are saying Happy Holidays of being.

On the other hand, the people who believe Christmas displays are somehow offensive to non-Christians are far too sensitive.
 
Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
 
In fact, I'll go so far as to say, people who are personally offended at someone mentioning, displaying signs of, or wishing that someone else have a joyous holiday, celebration, or event that they associate with joy, or love, or happiness, or even solemn rememberance--an event or time of year that is probably one of the most dear things in the world to them that is not a physical person--might need to stop and do some self-examination to see if they aren't maybe a little too self-centered and lacking in empathy.

When I lived in Brazil, they observed every Catholic holiday. Everybody got the day off work, but not me. In my little world, the only two ways it affected me was that I had to dodge the fires kids would always be burning on their front lawns those nights, and I had to pay again to board the bus in the bus terminal so they could make up the money they were losing on all the people who weren't going to work. I'd often get wished a happy whatever-saint's-day-it-was.

What kind of person would you think I was if I came here and said, "Those Brazilians didn't even stop to think about how I wasn't Catholic. I had my Mormon missionary nametag on. Why did I have to put up with all these manifestations of Catholicism?" Would they come across as intolerant, or would I?

Nobody means wishes of good in a bad way. Why can't we all just take it in the spirit in which it was offered--no matter what was said?
 
Posted by David Bowles (Member # 1021) on :
 
Oh, I have no problem with someone's *choosing* to use Happy Holidays. Great. I have a problem with being told that I shouldn't use Merry Christmas.
 
Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
 
David, I think your take is spot on.
 
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
 
There's a funny little decorated display in my office kitchen that the Social Committee has taken the time to set up. Lots of red and green ribbons, pictures of Christmas trees and snowmen, and "Happy Holidays!" in big, cheerful letters. The word Christmas appears nowhere.

Then, off in the corner, there's a piece of office paper printed with the words "Happy Hanukah" and a picture of a menorah and a dreidel. (No one on the decorating team, I know, is Jewish.)

I'm not really sure what to make of this. Let me start off by saying I'm in no ways offended by any of it, just puzzled. If we need separate signs for the "Happy Holidays" and non-Christian religious holidays, then what is "Happy Holidays" except for a slightly more alliterate synonym for "Merry Christmas"? And why are they bothing with the euphemism?
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
quote:

There's a funny little decorated display in my office kitchen that the Social Committee has taken the time to set up. Lots of red and green ribbons, pictures of Christmas trees and snowmen, and "Happy Holidays!" in big, cheerful letters. The word Christmas appears nowhere.

Then, off in the corner, there's a piece of office paper printed with the words "Happy Hanukah" and a picture of a menorah and a dreidel. (No one on the decorating team, I know, is Jewish.)

You can kind of tell.
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
quote:
The real siege of Christmas
Spirit of Christmas under attack from superficial commentators


Commentators Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity and John Gibson of Fox News and Bill Donohue of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights dishonor the spirit of Christmas by grandstanding about superficial issues while undermining the true spirit of Christmas Much like the Pharisees of Jesus' day, their focus on the language of retail advertising, and shopping itself, makes a mockery of the real Christmas message. Recent attempts targeting department store advertising, the President's holiday greeting card and the Christmas tree outside the Capitol (yes, we agree it's a Christmas tree) distract from the true meaning of Christmas: that Jesus Christ was born to bring good news to the poor.

"If Jesus entered a department store today, he wouldn't be worried about whether the advertising said "Christmas" or "Holiday." He would care if we were so stressed out about shopping that we didn't have enough time for family and friends. The Catholic social tradition calls us to ask if Wal-mart workers and shoppers are earning a family wage, if they were able to feed their families, and take their kids to the doctor." said Alexia Kelley, Executive Director of the Catholic Alliance for the Common Good.

Just in time for Christmas, Congressional leaders are preparing to deliver tax breaks to the rich and spending cuts to the poor. The budget cuts funding for food stamps, heath care for the needy, and student loans for low and middle class Americans.

"How do you celebrate Christ's birth by balancing the federal budget on the backs of the neediest? It is a bad Christmas story. It is a moral outrage to hurt the poor, our youth and our senior citizens and at the same time pass more tax cuts that benefit the rich and bankrupt our grandchildren's futures," said Sister Simone Campbell SSS, National Coordinator of NETWORK, A Catholic Social Justice Lobby.

So far this Christmas season, O'Reilly, Hannity, Gibson and Donohue have put superficiality ahead of spirituality. We pray that the Christmas season will inspire all of us to direct our anger at true injustices, such as a budget that cuts funding to the poor and gives tax breaks to the rich. That's the real siege on the spirit of Christmas.

The Catholic Alliance for the Common Good supports Catholic organizations committed to honoring Catholic social teaching and the fullness of the Catholic faith. For more information visit www.thecatholicalliance.org .



 
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
 
You can't take the commercialism out of Christmas, until you take Christmas out of the commercial.
 
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
 
DAvid-
I'm curious. When you tell your students "merry christmas," what do you say to the jews or muslims or hindus or buddhists in your class?

Its one thing to say merry christmas to someone you know is christian. Its another to assume that every kid in your class is christian. In particular, this year, if on the last day of school before break, you say "And have a merry christmas," you ARE actively saying to the non-christians in your class that they are second class citizens. Because channukah starts december 25th.
 
Posted by tern (Member # 7429) on :
 
Anyone who is diminished by wishing someone else good cheer...well...is a little too sensitive. What do you say to your Muslim students when you wish your Jewish students a Happy Hannukah?
 
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
 
"Anyone who is diminished by wishing someone else good cheer...well...is a little too sensitive."

You're missing the point, tern. Its not the good cheer... its the assumption that everyone in the class is of a certain religion.

I have no problems if you say merry christmas to your class... as long as, during the course of the year, you give the appropriate wishes for each major holiday that comes along. If, for example, you miss Ramadan, then your muslim students have a right to feel excluded from the general population, because they HAVE been excluded. They have been told that their religion is not worthy of notice. They've been told they are second class students.

Students ARE diminished if their personal story is not acknowledge, but the stories of other students are. So you've either got to acknowledge all of them individually, or all of them collectively, or none of them. Otherwise you're being a bad teacher.
 
Posted by dean (Member # 167) on :
 
Three years ago, I was working in a bookstore. There was no official rule about what to say to customers as they were leaving, but all of my coworkers said, "Merry Christmas." I had already become uncomfortable with celebrating Christmas because I had stopped being a Christian. I tried to say Happy Holidays instead, and a large number of customers were extremely rude about it. (For example, lecturing me that the store was making money off Christmas, and therefore I had an obligation to wish them a Merry Christmas, or just leaning in and hollering Merry Christmas into my face.) I tried not to let it bother me. A large number of customers were extremely rude about a lot of things, and Christmas seemed low on the list of things that I wished they'd be polite about.

Last year, I was working in a bank. once again, there was no direction from above about what to say. And although my coworkers were more adamantly Christian than those at the bookstore, I noticed immediately that they said "Happy Holidays," and I felt better-- more welcome, more wanted. I felt less like I was required to hide my infidel status. I felt like even though I didn't have a tree up at home and wasn't expecting any presents, that they still wanted to wish me a good day.

This year, it's somewhat different. There's been almost a complete turn-around in coworkers and the customers are more comfortable with me because I'm no longer new. Every third customer greets me with "So are you ready for Christmas?" I don't take offense-- it is my job not to take offense, and they patently can't imagine anyone not celebrating Christmas, and I know these people and know that they don't mean any harm. But I do feel like I would be regarded as a dangerous freak if I said that I don't celebrate Christmas and didn't have the good excuse of being Jewish or something.

Deflecting and dealing with Christmas greetings is part of my job, just as being polite when someone wishes me a "bless-ed day" is.

But it sometimes seems like my current round of co-workers don't feel the same need to be polite when someone says that they are not Christian or don't celebrate Christmas. One of the ladies there threatened to hit a boy with a ruler when he said he was an atheist. Two customers told me that atheists think that they believe in nothing, but really they're all money-obsessed, greedy bastards. The same co-worker who said that she would hit the boy who didn't believe in god also sneered that I shouldn't accept Christmas presents from customers because I don't celebrate Christmas. And another coworker started giving me tracts when I told him that I wasn't Christian and didn't appreciate him agreeing with customers that atheists are in fact money-grubbing bastards.

Does it really matter whether people say Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas? No, not really.

But I must say that I feel like a second-class citizen at my job vis-a-vis Christianity and Christmas. Not all the time, but only when it comes up.

And I found the coworkers who chose to say happy holidays were a group more inclined to show empathy for the outsider, less likely to make me feel like I had to hide my differing beliefs in a closet, and perhaps they were better Christians for recognizing that some people were different from them, and that making those people feel isolated was not the Christ-like thing to do. I miss those people so much.
 
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
 
I'm agnostic and I have no problems hearing "Merry Christmas" or saying it. In fact, last week was the end of my semester and I must have said it at least twenty times when saying goodbye to people. When I have a family of my own, I absolutely intend to celebrate Christmas. I think Christmas has become so seperated from Christ that it really doesn't have to be a religious thing. I say, for those who chose to make it religious- enjoy. For those of us who don't- still enjoy.

Dean, I'm curious, why would you refuse a Christmas gift? Is it simply that it's coming from a Christian with the expectation that you are Christian? What if they knew you weren't Christian and wanted you to have a gift simply because this is the time of year that people give gifts to those they care about? What if it was from a non-Christian?

I see Christmas as a time of love and uniting for everybody. I don't think the religious aspects, which are now essentially optional, should turn it into the reverse.
 
Posted by dean (Member # 167) on :
 
I have never refused a Christmas gift. My coworker, knowing that I don't celebrate Christmas and am not Christian, said that I ought to refuse them.
 
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
 
Oh, I see. I misunderstood your meaning in that statement. That's horrible that your co-worker would do that. [Frown] What a horrible attitude. Gifts are given out of caring for others. They don't come conditionally depending on your faith. At least they shouldn't.
 
Posted by tern (Member # 7429) on :
 
quote:
Students ARE diminished if their personal story is not acknowledge, but the stories of other students are. So you've either got to acknowledge all of them individually, or all of them collectively, or none of them. Otherwise you're being a bad teacher.
I rather disagree. What you are describing is an ideal, but it isn't one that should be mandated. Nor should one be considered a bad teacher. What do you do about Jehovah's Witnesses? They don't celebrate Christmas, so either you acknowledge their religion by not acknowledging Christmas and thereby offend the Christians, or you offend the JWs by acknowledging Christmas. Lose-lose situation.

The whole point of school is to gain an education. Self esteem and happiness and the avoidance of offense are completely beside the point. (Otherwise, I've got a lot of schools to sue for twelve years of misery.) In my experience, the invocation of the word "offense" is all too often just a way to quash beliefs that one does not agree with.

I'd really just rather have teachers concentrate on teaching the 3 R's and wishing people whatever happy holidays as they see fit, then trying to be a musical multicultural jukebox of variated holiday joy.
 
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
 
"I rather disagree. What you are describing is an ideal, but it isn't one that should be mandated. Nor should one be considered a bad teacher. What do you do about Jehovah's Witnesses? They don't celebrate Christmas, so either you acknowledge their religion by not acknowledging Christmas and thereby offend the Christians, or you offend the JWs by acknowledging Christmas. Lose-lose situation."

You acknowledge their religion in OTHER ways. If you positively acknowledge those who celebrate christmas, then you need to positively acknowledge other groups. You don't have a lose lose situation here, at least in the arrangement I describe, because at some other point the teacher positively affirms the JW's self story.

"The whole point of school is to gain an education. Self esteem and happiness and the avoidance of offense are completely beside the point."

Its funny... self esteem and happiness are CENTRAL to gaining an education. If you don't have a happy student, or one with good self-esteem, what you DO have is a student not reaching his potential.
 
Posted by tern (Member # 7429) on :
 
quote:
Its funny... self esteem and happiness are CENTRAL to gaining an education. If you don't have a happy student, or one with good self-esteem, what you DO have is a student not reaching his potential.
Again I disagree. First and second generation Asian-American students do so well because their parents emphasize hard work, and not self-esteem. We're too concerned about whether or not the student feels good that the basics of an education suffer.

The whole squishy idea of "affirmment" is again, unnecessary. While I don't like the attacks on Christianity in the schools, whether the schools "affirm" it or not, Christianity will go on. And so will the other religions.
 
Posted by the Voice of Reason. (Member # 5787) on :
 
quote:
Perhaps you should include on your list that the members of the population who used to be called "second class citizens" are now called "Christians".
Tern, it's so absurd to think that.
 
Posted by tern (Member # 7429) on :
 
My point was more that it's also absurd to think this:

quote:
"Perhaps you should include on your list that the members of your population who used to be called "second class citizens" are now called "students"."

 
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
 
See, I don't have a problem with tern or anyone else wishing me a "Merry Christmas." It is his, Christian, wish that I have a good day on Christmas. Others wish me to have a good time with my family in a more secular way, but use the same words. I do not care.

I do have a problem if my employer required that I say "Merry Christmas" to all my clients, even if I were not Christian. And I'd have a really big problem working under those conditions if I were a devout Chistian. Wishing someone a "Merry Christmas" for purely economic reasons, so they come to my store and spend money, with no Christian thought behind it is a devaluation of the Christianity in Christmas.

Bayer created both the term "Aspirin" as well as the Acetominophine (spelling?) formula. It was a great hit. It was so great a hit that they lost the trademark on the word "Aspirin" since its use became so generic.

Jello came close to having the same problem with their gelatin. Xeroxing became a verb that almost cost Xerox the trademark on their own name. Photoshop is a trademarked term for Adobe, but its common use for computer cropped photography has already put it at risk, and will get you a nasty legal letter if you use the term publically.

Each of these companies have taken steps to remove thier trademarked name from the generic uses.

For decades many Christians have tried to do the same, with giant billboards proclaiming "Put Christ Back in Christmas" and "Don't forget the Reason for the Season".

But this political demand that Christmas be the generic retail greeting used by all companies nationwide is driving the word Christmas into generic status.

It is a cultural issue. We have Christmas sales not because of any religious signifigance of a sale, but because we have done it in the past, and change must be bad. The cultural warriors are more concerned about fighting change than they are about seeing how the fight hurts Christmas.

Chist's birth has little to do with the giving of presents to each other. Santa doesn't have a Church Attendance or Baptismal requirement on his deliveries. It has a lot to do with American and European cultures. Santa truly only visits those influenced by those cultures. As a member of that culture, whether you are a believer or not, you get to be visited by Santa and keep the gifts.

Oh, and you may want to let Ruler Lady know that you can't gain converts with violence. A smack with a ruler is much more likely to drive someone away from Christ than to drive them to him. Also, the bible states "Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness Against Thy Neighbor". The lies they are assuming on all athiests are such false witnesses. Suggest they read thier bibles a little better and truely understand what Christianity, not blind obeidiance, is all about.
 
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
 
When I wish someone a Happy Hannukah, I don't in the least remove any religious content from Christmas! How could I? Is Hannukah an anti-Christmas?

But when I forbid them to wish me a Happy Christmas, or sniff when they refer to Hannukah, that *does* remove religious content. Even worse, it removes friendliness.
 
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
David,
Perhaps you live in a much different world than I do. From where I live, people who are not Christian have plenty of opportunities to learn how to deal with people looking down on them and not respecting their religion. Non-Christians are very used to not having their beliefs respected and being treated as lesser than Christians. Maybe, where you live, they only get this through preferential treatment of Christians by schools, businesses, and the government.

I'm all on board with kids needing to develop personal strength. However (and again, maybe my world is very different from yours), I don't see that the opportunity to do this is limited to this instance. Rather, what I see is places, like the government and school, that people should expect equal treatment from no matter what their religion is, giving Christianity preferrential treatment. It is important for kids to develop personal strength, but it is also important for them to develop trust in things that they should feel trust in.

As I've said, I find this specific instance not particularly important, but the underlying ideas that "real" Americans or kids from your school or, as kat said, Boy Scouts, etc. are Christian and that removing Christianities priviledged status and making it, in official standing, equal to other religions is an "attack" on it I consider very important.

And do you honestly think your snarky email or many Christians' whining and dishonesty and playing the victim are signs of personal strength? Because I see them as the very kind of wimpy behavior that you seem to be saying is bad for the minority kids to learn. Does being in a majority make it okay?
 
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
I think the people who are trying to prevent others from saying Merry Christmas are going too far, and I wish they'd just stop it.

But there is a real issue here. Look, I have a big mouth, and I'm pretty blunt (and fond of understatement, obviously), but I'm not the only one who is afraid of what's going on with Christianity in this country. And just so that Christians here won't feel picked on, I fully expect the Muslims to be even worse once they get their numbers up to the point where they feel comfortable going mano a mano with you.

We're afraid of you. You can say all you want about the dark history of Christianity being "un-Christian", but such abuse has shaped all of Western culture. We are afraid of you.

I've heard people on Hatrack itself say that America is and ought to be a Christian nation. Given Christianity's history, how can you not understand the real terror that such statements cause?

When any position contrary to Christian views (unplugging the brain-dead, abortion, keeping prayer out of schools, equal rights for gays and lesbians) comes up, the people who are most commonly associated with violent reactions base it on Christianity.

Are these people Christians? Well, when you want to talk about being 90% of the country, everyone claiming to be a Christian is a Christian. But when you want to talk about how loving and sweet Christianity is, every single counter-example is dismissed as "not really Christian". You want to have it both ways.

Fear breeds hostility. And when a big scary group that has a history of violence against others begins getting radicalized, there's a lot of fear.

Rather than complaining about the hostility, perhaps you should look inwards and ask yourselves whether the hostility might not be caused by something you're doing. And that the best solution might be to stop doing it.
 
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
 
"Again I disagree."

Tern-
You might want to look into actual educational research on this. Happy self-confident students do better then unhappy students with low self esteem.
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
Lisa,

I think that your post makes a great deal of sense. Please, though, bear in mind that when some of us describe some of the positions you list as "un-Christian" it is because we believe that they are, and we are rather desperately fighting to keep some Christians from defining Christianity for the rest of us.

I am afraid that we are losing. Even in your post you talk about "Christian views" as if we all held a single view on those things. We don't . I hope that would clear, at least to someone who spends time here.

While I don't believe that exempts me from responsibility for what people do in the name of Chrisianity (any more than my disagreement with the US government policies exempts me from responsibility for that), please believe that some of us are trying to do better.
 
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
quote:
I wonder if there is a historical reason for a lack of festivals during January and February. Perhaps it was just too much of a hassle to travel during the winter months.
I expect that historically February has been a time when food was running low, which isn't really when you want to be throwing a big feast.
 
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
While I don't believe that exempts me from responsibility for what people do in the name of Chrisianity (any more than my disagreement with the US government policies exempts me from responsibility for that), please believe that some of us are trying to do better.

I do. Honestly, I do. But it's the ones who aren't that are the loudest voices.
 
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
quote:
I expect that historically February has been a time when food was running low, which isn't really when you want to be throwing a big feast.
And the food you do have is the food you're sick of by now.
 
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
The pagans had a festival around what's now Groundhog Day.
 
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
 
quote:
And the food you do have is the food you're sick of by now.
yeah, you might start turning those rotten potatoes you've been eating for six months into some kind of, I don't know, doll head with changeable eyes, ears, mouths, and hats.
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
quote:
I do. Honestly, I do. But it's the ones who aren't that are the loudest voices.
I know. Scares me, too. But you could help by not adding your voice to theirs when they try to represent all of Christianity. Don't buy it!
 
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
 
Leonard Pitts had a relevant article on the subject. I meant to post it earlier in the week.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/living/columnists/leonard_pitts/13386403.htm
 
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
 
Jon Stewart had a couple of clips on the show the other night that were hysterical.

Clip of O'Reilley Factor, Bill O'Reilly: I don't believe most people who aren't Chritian are offended by "Merry Christmas." I think those people are nuts. I think you're crazy if you're offended by the words Merry Christmas.

Cut to Jon Stewart.

Jon Stewart: I actually agree with that. I think they're just words. Merry Christmas. I think it's innocuous. I don't think there's really any way that a sane person can be offeneded by a silly two word phrase. You know what Mr. O'Reilly? You're a reasonable man.

Clip of O'Reilly Factor, guest Philip Nulman says: Seasons Greetings and Happy Holidays, Bill, does not offend Christians.

Bill O'Reilly: Yes, it does. Absolutely does.

Cut to Jon Stewart and a very funny look.

[ROFL]
 
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
 
[ROFL]

We got it in church again on Sunday. "So many people are trying to take Christ out of Christmas." Felt a little ironic to me. I mean the people who are Christian and are really celebrating Christ's birth aren't trying to take Christ out of Christmas; and those who aren't Christian and celebrate Santa Day anyway aren't trying to take Christ out of Christmas, because for them it never was a religious holiday; and the stores are neutral, they don't care what you celebrate as long as you buy from them.

A reminder at Church of what this holy day is all about is fine. What's ridiculous is intolerance of the fact that not everybody considers it a holy day. Doesn't bother me to be wished Season's Greetings. I don't expect to be wished "God bless you" by everyone I meet every day, even though I hope He will! It's the forcing of people one way or the other - either to say Merry Christmas or to ban them from saying it - that is offensive.
 
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
 
Congressman John D. Dingell's Holiday Jingle
 
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
Yay Dingell, pride of Michigan [Smile]

I for one think much of the argument is silly. The ones doing all the changing are businesses and companies. Does it really matter what they think? They aren't out to effect social change, they're out to absolve themselves of discrimination liabilities and to make sure they get more butts in their stores buying crap.

I wish everyone I know a Merry Christmas. Am I assuming they're Christian? Maybe, but I've never heard an angry reply before. Just the other day I wished a girl a Merry Christmas, and she replied, smiling, "And a Happy Hannakuh to you." I smiled back and laughed.

I'll continue to wish everyone a Merry Christmas. Even if they aren't of another religion, the 25th is still Christmas, whether you like it or not, what problem does anyone have with me wanting you to have a nice day on the 25th? If you don't want to, then bah humbug, that's your business.

Further, regardless of what religion you are, Christmas IS a part of American culture, in the same way that Star Wars is a part of American culture (under the subheading of pop culture, but still culture). It doesn't matter if you like Star Wars, it's still there. Same thing with Christmas.

I honestly don't see how anyone can be offended by Merry Christmas. On the same note, I wouldn't at all be offended by Happy Hannakuh, Happy Holidays, Joyeaux Noel, Feliz Navidad, or any other form of well wishing for the season. Were someone to wish me a Happy Holiday to be PC, I would find it highly amusing, but certainly would not be offended.

Just say whatever feels right.
 
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
 
I never knew you were a Michigander, Lyr. [Smile]
 
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
Born and raised playing Euchre and drinking Vernor's.

Are you a fellow Michigander?
 
Posted by SC Carver (Member # 8173) on :
 
Sorry guys, but I just scanned through this and haven’t read the entire thing so you may have covered this.

The reason Christians get upset about people saying “happy holidays” is because we are tired of being marginalized and told we are offensive. It’s just one more thing in the long line of the politically correct pushing us out of society. No prayer in school, no ten commandments in the court room, they what to take God out of the pledge of allegiance and now there’s no “Christ” in “Christmas”. So some people get upset. For a lot of reasons these things are gone or going away, so we will either have to learn to accept it or find a way to make them relevant to the vast majority of this country again.

I personally feel the people who get upset about this either way are really focusing on the wrong things.
 
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
 
I always assumed Happy Holidays meant a combination of everything including New Years and Thanksgiving.
 
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
I don't know SC, I'm a Christian, but I think it made perfect sense to take God out of the pledge, seeing as how it was added way after the fact, and also makes perfect sense to take the 10 commandments out of the courtroom, seeing as how what, 8 out of 10 of the commandments aren't even laws, and never have been. And prayer in school is skirting the line towards state sponsorship of religion, and either way, it makes non-Christian kids feel left out, and school is the last place you want to do that.

Those things aren't just political correctness. But all this removal of the word Christmas from everywhere, they might have a reason to be annoyed, though I personally find it much more amusing than offensive.
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
quote:

The reason Christians get upset about people saying “happy holidays” is because we are tired of being marginalized and told we are offensive.

When did we start marginalizing Christians in this country? I must not have been paying attention. Maybe I was distracted by all the atheist senators, pagan festivals, and noontime calls to Allah.
 
Posted by SC Carver (Member # 8173) on :
 
My point is that Christianity was once involved in every part of this culture, and now it is not. I don't necessarily think all of it is bad, but it makes people who were used to it, feel like they are loosing control. That is why they get upset.

When you tell some one that saying "Merry Christmas" is offensive then, you are telling them their religion is offensive.

I would say Christmas is not even remotely a Christian holiday to most people. It’s not about going to church and/or reflecting on the birth of Christ; it’s about a fat man in a red suit.

pagan festivals: Halloween, Mari Gras, Valentines day, Super bowl…

Don't get me wrong I like Santa Claus, Halloween and the rest of it. I just think this culture is a lot less Christian than people make it out to be. Especially once you get past the face value of things.
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
See, the point is that we shouldn't, as Christians, have control.

And how on earth are 70-some percent of the population going to be "marginalized"? All that is happening is that people are making an attempt to stop marginalizing everybody else.

And holidays named after saints can safely be classed in the "christian" category.
 
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
 
quote:
pagan festivals: Halloween, Mari Gras, Valentines day, Super bowl…
That would be--All Saints Eve, The Celebration of and preparation for Lent, St. Valentines Day, and a sporting event. Yep, all heathen parties there.

The problem you have with such Pagan festivals losing their Christian concepts is that they are opened up to market forces which by their nature are inclusive. The open market says, "lets get as many people as possible to buy our stuff and our liquor and celbrate in our cities." not "Lets just keep this a nice Christian celebration."

The more you have stores call it Christmas, the more you genericize the word Christmas to include non-believers emphasising Santa Claus.
 
Posted by SC Carver (Member # 8173) on :
 
quote:
And how on earth are 70-some percent of the population going to be "marginalized"?
I am sure if you ask people if they are Christians, then at least 70% will respond yes, just like if you ask them if they always wear their seatbelts or if they don't drink and drive they will give the “right” answer. But I would be willing to bet a large portion of those who say they are Christians don’t have a true Biblical based faith. They more likely believe in some sort of God and spirituality which may or may not affect their lives at all.

I don’t claim to be able to say who is and isn’t a Christian, that is between them and God, and I don’t really want to get into a big discussion on if we can tell if someone is a Christian. But if you are a Christian then there should be some sort of indication in your life beyond your words. Going to church more than twice a year, or meeting with other Christians in some sort of fellowship, praying or reading their Bible regularly, doing community service or doing anything that shows their faith affects their life.

So I don’t really think that this country is 70% Christian, even right here in the heart of the Bible Belt, I don’t think we come close to it.
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
quote:
I don’t claim to be able to say who is and isn’t a Christian
And...maybe you should have just stopped there.

Can we still agree that we have the Jews, Muslims and Buddhists pretty well out-numbered?
 
Posted by SC Carver (Member # 8173) on :
 
quote:
All Saints Eve, The Celebration of and preparation for Lent
Both are non-Christian reactions to Christian events.

There is nothing christian about how any of the things I listed are celebrated. Just becuase Valentines day was named after a Saint doesn't make it's modern version is Christain. Thats like saying L.A. is a Christian city becuase it was named after Angels. Besides V-day is more for the greating card industry anyway, like Mothers, Fathers and grand parents day.

And if you don't think the Super bowl is a nation wide celibratrion then you must be out of the country when it goes on.
 
Posted by SC Carver (Member # 8173) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:
I don’t claim to be able to say who is and isn’t a Christian
And...maybe you should have just stopped there.

Can we still agree that we have the Jews, Muslims and Buddhists pretty well out-numbered?

No problem there
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
So my point that we are in considerably less danger of being marginalized than other religions have been in for generations...?

And perhaps, if we weren't so concerned with propagating Christianity, our holidays (and they are ours) might not be so watered-down.
 
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
 
quote:
Both are non-Christian reactions to Christian events.
Your not serious, are you? I'm pretty sure it's the other way around. Most Christian holidays were moved around so they would occur on pagan holidays.
 
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
I had a woman get VERY angry with me at work last week because I said "Happy Holidays" rather than Merry Christmas.

She got all up in arms because she thought I said it because my work (JCPenney) wouldn't allow me to say Merry Christmas.....she didin't ask me if that was the case, though, she just got all worked up about it.


She got even more disgruntled when I told her it was MY choice of words, not the company..and at that very moment the store manager came on the loudspeaker wishing everyone a wonderful Christmas season.


Talk about perfect timing, huh? [Big Grin]
 
Posted by SC Carver (Member # 8173) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Kayla:
quote:
Both are non-Christian reactions to Christian events.
Your not serious, are you? I'm pretty sure it's the other way around. Most Christian holidays were moved around so they would occur on pagan holidays.
Marti Gras/Carnival was started as an excuse to party as much as possible before lent started.

Yes, I know most Christain holidays were move or created to cover esisting pagen holidays. I used to wonder how much of this actually happened, but look at how many churches have “Fall feastivals” now instead of Halloween carnivals.

You may be right for Halloween I don't know which came first; Halloween or All saints day.


My point was niether are Christian holidays
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
quote:
I had a woman get VERY angry with me at work last week because I said "Happy Holidays" rather than Merry Christmas.
So did she want you to wish a Merry Christmas to people who dob't celebrate Christmas or did she expect you to be able to correctly guess that she did?

Shouldn't good wishes (like gifts) be tailored to fit the recipient? And, like with gifts, when in doubt, giving greetings that are "one-size-fits-all" makes a certain amount of sense.
 
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
 
I disagree. Your point was that non-Christian made up holidays to counter Christian holidays, which is exactly the opposite of what happened. Christians co-opted pagan holidays by moving their holidays to coincide with the pagan holidays, making the transition to Christianity more palatable. All Saints Day was moved from May to November.
 
Posted by SC Carver (Member # 8173) on :
 
I believe I admitted I may have been wrong about Halloween. (Which I know is something that rarely happens on this forum) But I maintain that Marti Gras was a reaction to Lent.
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
Mardi Gras was a reaction to Lent by Christians.
 
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
 
No. Easter was originally the spring harvest festival, which Christians decided to incorporate into their religion. Mardi Gras was was usually a circus like event held in mid-February to honor Lupercus. Surprisingly, the 12th night of Christmas (aka Feast of the Epiphany) is on January 6th, which, wait for it, was the original date for the season of Carnivals.
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
The important part of my post is "by Christians." It is not a reaction to Lent by, for example, Buddhists.
 
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
 
Sorry km. That wasn't directed at you.
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
Ahhh...no problem.

I don't doubt that we "converted" every holiday that we could get our hands on. I also don't think that recognizing this makes them less Christian. To Christians. We just need to remember the debt that we owe to other traditions.
 
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
 
I've got no problems with it at all. I just didn't like the inference that non-Christians created holidays to counter the Christian holidays by SC Carver is all. Sorry.

And Merry Christmas. [Smile]
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
You and I are in agreement on that! I was not too crazy about SC Carver deciding what counted as Christian either.

Where did he go anyway?

And all best wishes of the season to you!
 
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
Born and raised playing Euchre and drinking Vernor's.

Are you a fellow Michigander?

Nope. But I've been to Michigan. [Smile]
 
Posted by SC Carver (Member # 8173) on :
 
Sorry guys, I had to do some Christmas shopping, no one wished me a Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays at all. Not that I would have minded either way.

Again, if I got side tracked, my point on the other holidays was, regardless of how they got started, now they are not Christian Holidays. That some of what people call Christian today isn't related at all.

I am not trying to decide who is and isn't Christian. As I said to start with, that is between them and God. But I do strongly feel that if you are a Christian, then your beliefs should manifest themselves in your life somehow. I'm am not limiting how they manifest themselves, nor am I saying that those manifestations should look the same as mine, nor conform to the traditional church model, but there should be some sort of affect on your life.

If I was raised in a country where the majority of the country was Buddhist, and I claimed to be Buddhist, but Buddhism didn't have any direct influence on my actions, my feeling, my thoughts or my decisions, I wouldn't say I was a true Buddhist.
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
quote:
Again, if I got side tracked, my point on the other holidays was, regardless of how they got started, now they are not Christian Holidays. That some of what people call Christian today isn't related at all.

You have said this, but you haven't yet said anything that backs this up.

Nor have you said anything that bolsters your claim that Christians are being marginalized.
 
Posted by SC Carver (Member # 8173) on :
 
Please explain to me how Halloween, Marti Gras, and most holidays other than Christmas and Easter (as they are celebrated today) are in any way a Christian holidays. Not just having been started by Christians

The word "Marginalized" was an exageration used to get reaction. That being said, Christians have been push out of a lot of area's where they once had influence; schools, court rooms and now holiday greetings. This is why we feel like we have been marginalized and is why some people get upset about "Happy Holidays". It's just another reminder of how we are loosing our influence on todays culture.

I realize we are not a minority and as a whole still carry alot of clout, but it seems like every time you turn around some one is trying remove any sign Christianity in America.
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
There are ways that Christians can celebrate all of those holidays in ways that are Christian, as long as we remember what it is that we are really doing. But I do agree that for many, the holidays have been watered-down and secularized.

But what people are missing is that Christianity's domination of Western and American culture is a big part of why the holidays have become less than what they should be. By almost shoving Christmas down the throats of everyone else, we, ourselves, rob it of its meaning. It is two sides of the same problem. Perhaps if we quit forcing Christianity into the public sphere, public schools, courtrooms, shopping malls, it will be easier for us to remember what is is supposed to be about.

And it is not about having clout.
 
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by SC Carver:
The word "Marginalized" was an exageration used to get reaction. That being said, Christians have been push out of a lot of area's where they once had influence; schools, court rooms...

And well they should be. It's called separation of church and state.

[ December 21, 2005, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: Ela ]
 
Posted by SC Carver (Member # 8173) on :
 
quote:
Perhaps if we quit forcing Christianity into the public sphere, public schools, courtrooms, shopping malls, it will be easier for us to remember what is supposed to be about.
I can agree with this completely. I know it may sound like from this thread that I want this country to go back to the 50's or something like that. But I really think that we Christians spend way too much time worrying about politics or only a few political issues, instead of looking for ways to go out and show people the love of Christ. If all the Christians in this country started doing their best to live like Christians instead of worrying about what the non Christians were doing I think our public image would take care of itself.
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
And there, SC Carver, we are in agreement. Have a blessed Christmas.
 
Posted by SC Carver (Member # 8173) on :
 
I also don't have a problem with Separation Of Church and State. It may get carried too far sometimes, but I certainly wouldn't want the government telling me how to worship.

I apologize for going off on a tangent. I was in a bad mood and am now stepping off of my soap box.
 
Posted by SC Carver (Member # 8173) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
And there, SC Carver, we are in agreement. Have a blessed Christmas.

I hope you do also.
 
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
 
I'm really glad my work doesn't have a policy on holidy greetings and that I can say whatever I want to costumers. Which generally is nothing that isn't absolutely necessary.

I have found, though, that I automatically answer Merry Christmas to any holiday greeting. I'm the kind of person who needs time to process what the other person says and then formulate my reply, which really isn't possible when echanging casual holiday greetings with costumers. *shrugs* I'll apologize if they're offended, but since they always initiate the greeting, I don't see anything wrong with replying in the way that comes most naturally to me.
 
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
quote:
Please explain to me how Halloween, Marti Gras, and most holidays other than Christmas and Easter (as they are celebrated today) are in any way a Christian holidays. Not just having been started by Christians
In practice, I don't think that they are--they're secular. Individual communities may celebrate them as Christian holidays, but the country as a whole does not.

That brings up a related point. Earlier in this thread, SC Carver, you described Halloween, Mari Gras, Valentines day, and the Super Bowl as pagan. Why do you think that? I'd agree with you if you said that they were secular, but I'm not having much luck in seeing them as pagan. Are you using "pagan" as a synonym for "secular", or do you actually view these holidays as honoring some pantheon or another?

quote:
If all the Christians in this country started doing their best to live like Christians instead of worrying about what the non Christians were doing I think our public image would take care of itself.
Now there I agree with you.

Can you imagine how much different the world would be if everyone who professed to be Christian started actually living by Jesus' teachings? Man, I'd like to live in that world.
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
Amen
 
Posted by SC Carver (Member # 8173) on :
 
Secular would be the correct term. I don't believe I actually called them Pagan, just non-Christian. If I did, secular was what I meant.
 
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
I'm not sure I like you equating secular and non-Christian. I'm not a Christian, but I'm about as far from secular as you can get.
 
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
But I doubt that you celebrate the secularized versions of Christmas or Easter, so you weren't who he was calling secular.

Edit: to put it another way, secular things are non-Christan, but not everything non-Christian is secular.
 
Posted by SC Carver (Member # 8173) on :
 
StarLisa,

Didn't mean to offend, I think I've done enough of that on this thread. I've always thought of secular as non-Christian, not as non-religous or faithful.
 
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
This was what I was referring to:

quote:
Originally posted by SC Carver:


pagan festivals: Halloween, Mari Gras, Valentines day, Super bowl…

For what it's worth, SC Carver, you haven't offended me in the least, and while I don't think you've quite said exactly what you've set out to say in some of your posts in this thread, I think that you've been very gracious in clarifying and correcting yourself as you've gone along. You may be feeling a bit beaten up on, so let me just add that you're definitely someone who I've enjoyed interacting with here, and that I'm glad you're a part of the forum.
 
Posted by Astaril (Member # 7440) on :
 
Well, today was my holiday of choice, and not one person wished me Happy Midwinter Solstice. In fact, I believe at the exact time of the Solstice, I was listening to my nieces sing "We Wish You a Merry Christmas" at their school Christmas concert. The irony!

I've always used the word "Secular" to mean "opposite of Sacred", and vice versa, regardless of what kind of sacred, or sacred to whom. Christmas might be sacred to one person, and secular to another, even though they do exactly the same rituals.

Also, I would say Hallowe'en is as sacred/secular as Dec. 25 in that regard, only it's a Pagan/Secular split instead of a Christian/Secular split. I would agree that you could call October 31st a pagan (in the true sense of the word) holiday, at least as much as you can call Christmas a Christian holiday. The difference is that a lot of secular folks still say they celebrate "Christmas" whereas very few non-Pagans will call Hallowe'en Samhain/New Year. (However, some might, just as some Pagans may call it Hallowe'en or another name as well.)
 
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
I disagree, Astaril. I think that Halloween is further removed from it's sacred origins than Christmas is. There are communities who celebrate it as a religious holiday, just as there are Christians that celebrate Christmas as a religious holiday, sure, but it isn't uncommon for Christmas displays to contain overtly Christian imagery, for nativity plays to be put on in grade schools, for grade schools to put on performances of Christmas music that is clearly inspired by the birth of Jesus, etc. You really don't get anything equivalent to that on Halloween, that I can think of.
 
Posted by Astaril (Member # 7440) on :
 
Hmm. I didn't phrase that thought very clearly. I do agree that it is further removed in the general sense, and that people are much less aware of the religious significance it has for those who do celebrate it. By "as secular/sacred as Christmas", I meant that, just like Christmas, it is still an important religious holiday for some people while at the same time being vastly pervasive as a secular holiday for many others (in Canada/USA at least). Does that make more sense? (Basically, I was trying to say "those two things are both blue, and not green or yellow or another colour" but not "those two things are both the same shade of blue".)

There are a lot of pagan-origin traditions that still take place on Hallowe'en, but I think it's less obvious that they're based on old religious customs. Samhain isn't based so much on a story, like Christian Christmas is with the birth of Jesus. Everyone (or most everyone Western, I'd wager) knows the basic story of Jesus' birth. Fewer people probably know the myth behind jack-o-lanterns or why people apple-bob on Hallowe'en or where the tradition of dressing up in costumes and trick-or-treating comes from. Also, there's no central hero to the Pagan traditions like there is with Christmas and Jesus, so it's hard to compare the two holidays in that regard, when their focuses are so different.
 
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
Oh, okay, I can agree with that.

You know, I'm sure I don't know most of the Samhain backstory for Halloween. Would you be willing to share what you know? Of the three things you listed, I only know one of them.

::very curious::
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
quote:
Well, today was my holiday of choice, and not one person wished me Happy Midwinter Solstice.
Well...I rather specifically included pagans in my holiday wishes. Posted yesterday on purpose to be on time. Could that count?
 
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Astaril:

Everyone (or most everyone Western, I'd wager) knows the basic story of Jesus' birth.

I've definately had a long conversation with my Indiana born and raised boyfriend about how no, Easter is not when Jesus was born, that's Christmas. Which then degenerated (from his point of view, I was enjoying myself, there's not that much that I know and he doesn't) into a discussion of the significance of both Easter and Christmas, because he had no idea.

I realize that's just one sample, but I was shocked that anyone could grow up in the US and have no idea what Christmas and Easter meant. Especially as his mother is nominally Christian.
 
Posted by Astaril (Member # 7440) on :
 
Thanks, Kate! Of course it counts. I was meaning people in real life, in stores and whatnot; I wasn't really expecting it or anything! Also, offtopic a bit, I feel like I should mention I'm a little wary of the pagan label for myself as I'm not Wiccan, nor do I cast spells or heal myself with gemstones or try to divine the future and so forth, and the word "pagan" is still synonymous with many such things in a lot of minds.

Blacwolve, that's interesting! I've never met someone raised in Western culture that hasn't known either.

Noemon: Gladly! Nothing like derailing a Christmas thread to talk about Hallowe'en... [Smile] It's actually really interesting just from a mythological point of view. I tried to find a good website about it, but a lot of the ones I found are very... well, non-scholarly. There's some information here. There's also some info here.

From my own head:

Basic background:
The Celtic New Year begins Nov. 1st. The night of Samhain is a liminal time, between one year and the next, and also halfway between Mabon (Fall Equinox) and Winter Solstice. At such liminal times, the Celts believe the veils separating this world from the World of the Dead, and the Land of the Sidhe ("the good folk" or Tuatha De Danaan of Irish myth) are at their thinnest. (This also occurs at Beltaine, 6 months later in May).

Samhain celebrates the end of the harvest and the beginning of the new year. It is a 'fire festival'. Sacred bonfires were lit on hills where people would gather to celebrate. People would extinguish their hearths and relight them for the new year with fire from these bonfires, which they would carry in hollowed out turnips.

The dead could return on Samhain to visit their families, and so the custom was to set an empty place at dinner to honour them, and to leave food out at night for them as well. The Sidhe were also out in full force at this time, so in Ireland at least, food and milk was often left for them as well.

The traditions I mentioned:

Apple-bobbing was traditionally a means of divination, I believe. Being such a liminal time, Samhain was considered the best time of the year for divination of various means.

Jack-'o-Lanterns descend partly from the practice of carrying the new hearth-light home from the bonfire, and partly from the non-Pagan myth of Irish Jack. He tricked the Devil in life, and so was denied entrance to both Heaven and Hell upon death. Satan gave him a lighted coal to put in the turnip he'd been eating with which to light his way as he wandered earth for eternity.

Trick or treating: In medieval times, folks would go begging door-to-door for 'soul cakes', and in return for food would pray for that family's deceased. There's also question about whether trick or treating stems from the earlier practice of going round to houses to collect food and kindling for the bonfire and feast.

As for dressing up, there's the idea that people dressed up in order to confuse the Sidhe and the malevolent spirits that were out (this origin of dressing up is something I read from websites - I can't vouch for its truth).

Also, another interesting tradition is Guy Fawkes Day in the UK, which bears obvious similarities to the bonfire feasts of Samhain.

Whew! That was exceedingly long! Hope it was mildly interesting.
 
Posted by SC Carver (Member # 8173) on :
 
Hi guys I just got an email on this topic. In case you don't feel like reading the whole thing. It basically is a Christian calling for Christians not to get upset about the whole "Happy Holidays" thing. Its interesting because I think I've seen half a dozen other emails calling for people to get upset about it.


quote:
December 22, 2005


Holiday Warsby John Fischer
This Christmas, Christians have been caught in the throes of a war on semantics. We
are seeing and hearing more “Happy Holidays” and less “Merry Christmases.” The
beloved “Christmas tree” has turned into being a “Holiday tree." One television ad
plays regularly with carolers singing: “We Wish You A Happy Holiday” to the tune of
“We Wish You A Merry Christmas.”

One can surely see why a general mood of fighting back could prevail. I have seen
numerous emails floating around with pictures of Christmas trees lamenting the
secularization of Christmas. The underlying tone of these messages so far has been
one of anger and partisanship, as if to say: “They can't take our Christmas away
from us!”

It's an interesting question and one we need to consider seriously. If this a
battle, on what level do we fight it? If someone wishes us “Happy Holidays,” do we
respond with a hearty “Merry Christmas,” thus striking a blow for the kingdom of
God?

I'm not so sure it's as important as all this. After all, it's Christ that is the
issue, not Christmas. I don't even think Jesus cares very much about what we or
anyone else call an evergreen with lights on it in December. Jesus never cared much
about labels anyway; He always cared more about what was in the heart.

Here's how you put Christ back into Christmas: you celebrate Him as Lord of your
life and ruler of your heart, and you love even those who want to take Christmas out
of the Holiday equation. Jesus didn't come to condemn the world, but to save it
(John 3:17). He came to forgive sins -- mine… yours… everybody's. Jesus came to seek
and to save that which was lost. Let's not let religious pride get in the way of the
core message of the gospel. It's never been us against them; it's us for them. We
mustn't forget that Jesus came to die for the very people who are trying to
secularize our country.

In our zeal to keep Christ in Christmas, lets be careful not to alienate the very
people who need Him the most -- those who don't know Him. People are more likely to
be set on the road to salvation by loving, caring believers who are secure in the
hope of the real Christ living in their lives, and whose faith is brighter than any
Christmas tree.

It's what's in your heart that really counts this Christmas. Let's not get so taken
up with fighting to save a name that we forget to live out the reality of the hope
of Christ to the world. If people end up encountering the real Christ of Christmas,
it will matter little what we end up calling the holiday itself.


John Fischer is the Senior Writer for Purpose Driven Life Daily Devotionals. He
resides in Southern California with his wife, Marti and son, Chandler. They also
have two adult children, Christopher and Anne. John is a published author and
popular speaker.


 
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:
I had a woman get VERY angry with me at work last week because I said "Happy Holidays" rather than Merry Christmas.
So did she want you to wish a Merry Christmas to people who dob't celebrate Christmas or did she expect you to be able to correctly guess that she did?

Shouldn't good wishes (like gifts) be tailored to fit the recipient? And, like with gifts, when in doubt, giving greetings that are "one-size-fits-all" makes a certain amount of sense.

That's what I thought, anyway....she obviously didn't agree. [Wink]


And I couldn't care less...as a matter of fact I rather enjoyed the exchange. [Big Grin]
 


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