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Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 
I'm so angry right now I could spit. Today I got a call from my father, who's out in Utah for the blessing of my brother's two new babies. He is also organizing the next big Jennings family reunion for next summer. There was one this summer which I didn't attend since I heard about it too late, and wasn't planning to go out there at any rate until maybe summer 2007 to visit my sister. But my dad found it necessary to call me (with an uncle on the line, for good measure) to tell me that if I planned to go out there Chris and I were welcome to share lodging with him and his wife, but "the family" thought it best if I attended any family functions alone (i.e. without Chris), to avoid giving "the wrong impression" to the younger family members.

I was floored. It was so damn random. I haven't spoken to any of that side of the family in years, except a couple of cousins who keep in touch. I remember replying, "That's not going to happen", meaning there's no way I'm attending anything without Chris, and I remember my dad trying to say something, but I just quickly ended the conversation with "Well, Chris and I have to be somewhere and we're running late. I'll talk to you later." But the whole thing upset me. And now several hours later, it's just worse. I have gotten progressively madder at "them" to the point right now that I couldn't care less if I ever see any of them again, my father included.

I try very hard to understand and respect views that are more conservative than my own, but this has made me feel like crap in a way I don't think I ever have before. I feel like I've just been told that my family would prefer to not know me. "But they want you to come" you might say. No, what they want is the fantasy Karl, the one they wish I was to be there. Or worse, they could care less about me one way or the other as long as they don't have to answer any inconvenient questions their kids might ask.

I'm very angry, and not the least of it at my own father. I've been trying to parse out why that is, after all, he did say he'd be fine having Chris and I stay with him, and he never expressed any problems like this before. But I feel like he, of all people should have been more inclined to protect me from the insult than to pass it along. (Not that anything in his life has ever given me reason to expect that from him.) But if I were in the dad position here, at the very least I would tell the individuals with the problem that if they weren't adult enough to hold their tongues they should convey their feelings themselves and then I'd step down from organizing the event all together. But if my father were to stand up for my feelings, this would be the first time, so I shouldn't be surprised, I guess.

Needless to say, it's all moot at this point. They won't be seeing me there with or without Chris.

But now I'm curious. Who here would have a problem with a gay family member attending a family function with a partner? If so, why, exactly? Would you actually ask that family member to leave their partner at home?

Ya know, knowing as I do their religious views on the subject, I could even respect parents who went home after a reunion and explained to their kids that what I was doing was wrong. But I can't respect treating me like an embarrassment. Use me as an object lesson if you must, but don't ask me to hide in your self-righteous closet.

[ December 10, 2005, 11:58 PM: Message edited by: KarlEd ]
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 


I'm sorry.

(((KarlEd)))
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
(And I know that's not the reply you were asking for, but I just have nothing else worthwhile to say--this is so far out of my realm in so many different ways. I don't have enough family to know what it would be like for them to treat me this way, for one thing.)
 

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Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 
I'm just venting. I probably wouldn't have even posted this except I just put my Mom on a plane to Utah where she's trying to enjoy a holiday with my sister and really needs to see and hear as little about my dad as humanly possible right now.
 

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Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
 
That just sucks. I'm sorry, Karl.

To answer your question, I certainly wouldn't have a problem with a gay family member attending something with their significant other, but I have family members who would.

Most of them, though, would go the route you mentioned: letting them do it and then being angry/hurt about it in private. I don't think any of my relatives would actually ask a gay family member to show up alone.
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Of all the relatives I have, the ones I wouldn't want to have come include an aunt's second husband who hits on (and by that, I also mean sexually assault and tell nasty dirty jokes to) every female over the age of puberty and thinks he's just so charming when in reality we all think he's a dirty old man and a cousin who lies to everyone about everyone else to try to manipulate us into having spats. Or my uncle who's molested every female child in reach. Oh, and my parents who are abusive beyong belief. Those are the people I wouldn't want there and would go to great pains to avoid.

Gay partners? It wouldn't even occur to me to think about excluding them. Well, if there were any - no one in our family, extended or otherwise, has come out of the closet, so as far as I know, there aren't any. But it wouldn't matter to me.

It sucks, KarlEd. I'm sorry you're going through this.
 

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Posted by tern (Member # 7429) on :
 
I'm sorry to hear of your difficulties. I'm sure it comes as no surprise what my views on homosexual behaviour are, and I won't list them here. (Especially because it's inappropriate) My opinion is that homosexuality is a fact, whether one likes it or not, and hiding it from one's children would be doing them a disservice. I'd probably be among those who would go home afterwards and have a little discussion with my children. The thing is, we're taught to act with love, which I equate to doing things which will be effective. I.e., telling someone they are going to Hell is ineffective. So I always try to treat my gay friends with respect, not merely out of friendship, but also because I wouldn't want to do anything that might detract from them doing what I consider to be the right thing.

Perhaps your father doesn't know how he would deal with family and with how they would react? It's also possible that he might be worried about what they think of him. My mom is a Utah Mormon, and she is always concerned with how her family percieves her and her children.
 

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Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
 
I wouldn't have a problem with a gay family member attending with a partner. Actually, besides my general love of gay men, my mom's cousin was gay and I always felt sad for him to be so in the closet. I mean, flaming, but since no one in my family would acknowledge there was anything slightly different about him, including asking when he was going to meet the right girl and settle down and have kids, it drove me nuts.

Then again, they refuse to acknowledge a lot of things. Stuff that happened to me, a cousin that was in and out of jail, an alcoholic aunt. . . see a pattern? People in my family slowly went insane because they couldn't be themselves.


I've taken my sleeping meds, so I'll try to be more coherent tomorrow. But, hugs Karl.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
((KarlEd))

And to answer your question, no, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Edit: one possibility is that your dad knows his family will act badly toward you and Chris, and he's trying to protect you from it. He's not going about it in a smart way, but it might really stem from a desire to protect you. Still sucks, though.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

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Who here would have a problem with a gay family member attending a family function with a partner?

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If so, why, exactly?

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Who here would have a problem with a gay family member attending a family function with a partner? If so, why, exactly? Would you actually ask that family member to leave their partner at home?

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I would have no problem. As an Orthodox Jew, I understand that open (or veiled, for that matter) homosexuality is not at all accepted in the community. This is why I make a point to make sure that my gay friends and relatives know that they are always welcome, with their partners at my house, at any family gatherings, events, or even just to come to religious services and to sit with me. I tell them that anyone who says anything against them will have to answer to me.

I have found that my willingness to be seen with my lesbian friends has caused some people to gossip and speculate about my orientation. In the Orthodox tradition, that kind of gossip is sinful, but what I am doing (making everybody welcome, and role-modeling appropriate hospitality) is not. So shame on the gossips.

You would always be welcome with us, Karl. And tell Chris that we'd love to have him, too! How would I introduce the two of you? Same as I introduce any couple who are unmarried -- "Karl, and his friend (or good friend) Chris."
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
I don't have a problem with anyone (currently) in the family. Do I believe it's right that my sisters live with their boyfriends and have no intention of getting married? No. Do I criticize them? No! Do I deny myself the opportunity to enjoy the company of their very cool boyfriends? No. And it would be the same if one of them had a girlfriend instead. The only person in my family I ever wished to avoid was the alcoholic husband of my cousin who hated children and was completely out of line with the rest of the family's sense of humor. And she divorced him (and then he died.) So, why someone is included in family functions is not what we focus on; what kind of company they are is.
 

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Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
 
(((KarlEd))) That sounds like a horrible situation.
 

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Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
Wow, Karl - that's hurtful and I'm sorry.

In answer to your question, no, I wouldn't have a problem with it, at all. And as Tante says, you and Chris would be welcome at any time. Just like my friend Amy from college days and her partner, Sarah. Or my friend Laura and her husband, Doug. Or Ellane (my son's godmother) and her partner, Danny. Or, or, or . . .

(((Karl)))
 

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Posted by sweetbaboo (Member # 8845) on :
 
Sorry that you're hurting Karl.

I think sometimes it's easier to play the avoidance game (in this case situational avoidance) rather than have to explain or to deal with it, both on your side and your Dads. I don't know if it's right or wrong. It's an issue, that in thinking about, I'm wrestling with how to explain my thoughts and feelings.

I would hope, if it were me, that discussions could aid in understanding for both parties.

Good luck to you. Sometimes I wish life were easier.
 

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Posted by Rico (Member # 7533) on :
 
I'm sorry KarlEd.

If there's at least one group of people who should support you, it should be your family. I find it sad that for the most part, it's them that end up judging you the harshest.

Hang in there!

[ December 11, 2005, 01:50 AM: Message edited by: Rico ]
 

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Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
 
Its terrible that your family would treat you that way, Karl. Its terrible to imagine that those closest to you would think so little of your feelings and your life.

My family is very religious on my dad's side. To the extent that I'm not allowed to get married until my grandma dies because the shock of one of her grandchildren not marrying a Catholic boy would be too upsetting for her. I'm in a serious interracial relationship and I'm having to deal with my own mother who is very uncomfortable with it all. I can't even imagine asking in the future if he and I would be welcome together at a gathering of my dad's family.

I'm glad that you're sticking up for you and your partner.
 

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Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
 
Karl Ed, I would have no problem at all welcoming the partners of gay family members into our family. Not only would I do my best to make them feel welcome and part of the family, but I would also try to protect them from any family situation in which (or people by whom) they might be slighted or treated with anything less than complete warmth and respect.

It seems to me that if you love someone, you love who they are. If they're gay then that's part of who they are, and not something I would want to change.
 

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Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
 
I think it's stupid, but I then also don't have any sway over this. I can techinically understand where they are coming from, but then again I think they are short sighted. I would allow a gay family member and said partner to a party/gettogether, but that's only because I have had the opportunity to meet some people that were not necessarilly straight. Like I told someone earlier tonight: "I don't care how you live, I won't tell you how to do things different. Just do me a favor in return and don't tell ME how to live."
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

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It seems to me that if you love someone, you love who they are. If they're gay then that's part of who they are, and not something I would want to change.

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It is possible to love somebody and not love everything about them.

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I'd probably be among those who would go home afterwards and have a little discussion with my children.

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See, THIS I don't get. Because I've spent time with Karl and Chris, and the conversation would have to go like this: "Kids, you saw how much those two guys love each other, how they were hanging on their partner's every word? You saw how they were quite possibly the funniest, gentlest, most stable people at the party? That's because they're sinners."

Again, having met them, I can't think of a single speech you could give your kids about the evils of homosexual relationships that would counteract their obvious embodiment of the contrary.
 

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Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
Tom, I've had that talk with my son. I told him that lots of gay people are picked on and discriminated against, and that he needs to be sensitive in his speech and actions to make sure that he doesn't hurt anyone's feelings. I've told him that some of his friends might be gay, but afraid to admit it, or their parents or other family members might be gay. So that even an innocent comment like "Dude! You're shirt is tucked into your boxers! That's so gay!" can turn out to be a cruel and hurtful thing.

I've also explained the difference between being and doing. The prohibition in our religion is not against being gay, it is against doing certain specific things. People can not help who they are, but they can do their best to act in the right way. Then I remind him that there is no one among us who does not do sins, and I won't tolerate one kind of sinner acting all holier and superior to another kind.

So, yeah, I have had that talk.
 

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Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
 
Tom, I agree. Except, our views come from a standpoint where there is no religous ban/taboo on such a relationship.

I don't think anyone could seriously justify an anti-homosexual relationship stance if all they were basing it one was the relationship itself, especially if it was one as loving as Karl and Chris's seems to be.

But the thing is, the view against these relationships isn't based on the relationships themselves. It's what those people who believe see as the words of their god. And given that basis, no example of the "banned" behaviour, no matter what the example, will change the status of the behaviour.

**

I think your Dad's treatment of you is outrageous, Karl.

I wonder if you should consider talking to him about it, and telling him exactly how it made you feel? The only reason I venture this is I had a situation with my father a year or so back where he basically told me that as his new partner (who he cheated on my Mum for 6 years with, and eventually left her for and is now living with) didn't feel comfortable with me, he couldn't come around to my house until she did.

The message I got was until I learnt to get on with his new partner, I didn't get to see my Dad.

I was extremely, extremely upset. In the end I called him up and told him everything I was feeling - and it turns out, he had never meant it that way. He was just trying to "spare my feelings" and make things less uncomfortable. He was genuinely shocked that I was upset. And, it forced him to look at what he was doing and what priorities he was placing on things - and things have gotten better. Not perfect, but better.

I guess what I'm trying to say is often parents get it very very wrong, for reasons they might think are good.
 

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Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
 
Karl, I'm sorry this is happening. May I suggest the conversation with your father begins, "Dad, I know that Chris and my love flies in the face of some beliefs that there is no such thing as a long standing monogamus homosexual relationship, and I understand you not wanting to ruin some dumb people's delusions, but...."

((Edited because I confused Karl with Tom in my writing. But, hey, I'm feeling much better now.))

[ December 11, 2005, 08:15 PM: Message edited by: Dan_raven ]
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
My relatives would probably do the same thing if by some fluke I had a female partner. I got the bible quoted at me for even hinting at my sexuality. But, they would probably react the same if I bought to a gathering a tattooed Japanese man... Or anyone for that matter. It is very depressing. Please do not feel to bad about it though.It's just so hard to explain it to some people so they can understand things and get them right.
 

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Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
 
(((Karl)))

That just sucks.

In answer to your question, I would have no problems. Some members of my immediate family would probably struggle a bit internally at first, but as soon as they got to know the hypothetical person and partner, I'm sure they'd be fine. (I say this because I've witnessed my mom, who at first expressed difficulties with my sister living with a guy, come to absolutely adore the guy in question and have no problem with the arrangement.)

Some of my extended family, I'm sorry to say, is a whole other issue.

And because I think you need another hug...

(((Karl)))
 

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Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
 
I would be quite pissed off if I was you, Karl... There's no good reason to treat you and Chris that way. I don't have a problem to welcome anyone's SO in the family, same sex or not. The personality of the SO is the key, not his/her being male or female. the personality and of course the way he treats you.
EDIT to add a hug for you. (((Karl)))
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
No problems here. Plus, I think family gatherings, when my mom was alive, would have been exceedingly cordial. My grandmother would have said something embarrassing, so we'd have probably talked to her first, to avoid that. She'd never have said anything really offensive, but she might have tried to match-make or asked about the guest's wife or something. >_<

I think my papa would be fine, though he might giggle a bit after everyone was gone. I dunno.

I like Tom's talk with the hypothetical 'kids'. I may try that if we ever get to visit Karl and Chris or Steve and Scotti [my writing group buddy and his partner, who have been together almost as long as my hubby and me].

{{{{{{{Karl}}}}}}}

I do not get the whole "It's not the relationship, it's the deviant sexual acts" thing. Because gay couples don't do anything that hetero couples don't do, but it's okay if the hetero couples do it.
 

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Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
 
I would expect gay relatives to bring loved ones. I'd want to know what's going on in the lives of my family members, and I'd be interested in meeting people who are in the process of becoming part of my family.
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
I am trying to find a way to say this that is not offensive.

Unless one is accustomed to detailed discussions of private sexual activities at one's family reunions, how on earth could it matter to those involved? If the child is young enough, a "friend" will just be a "friend," regardless of anyone's gender.

And if the child is old enough to ask questions, then what a perfect time to either:

1) answer those questions, if it is an appropriate time to do so, or

2) clarify what is and is not appropriate for discussion at such a social situation, and then attend to #1 later

Edited to add: And what Chris said, in spades.

*sigh
 

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Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
 
*nods at CT*
 

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Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
 
I recently learned that a girl my age got a transfer out of our first grade class, because her mother didn't want her to be taught by a gay man. I told my mom, who was outraged that such a thought could be possible, and that she never thought it mattered, so never explained anything. No one in my household would care, my extended family might, especially my mom's side, my dad's side is most likely to object to a child bringing home a republican.
 

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Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
Didn't read the thread beyond Karl's post, but here's my $0.02 -- anywhere couples will be you have every right to be as well, and how your relatives explain your lifestyle to their kids is their problem. And by problem, I mean responsibility.

Sorry your family is being so insensitive.
 

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Posted by littlemissattitude (Member # 4514) on :
 
(((Karl)))

I'm so sorry that you're having to go through this. It really sucks.

I certainly wouldn't have a problem with someone who is gay (relative or not) in my home with his or her partner. Unfortunatly, I have grown up around relatives who were the sort of people who were virulently homophobic. This to the extent that if they had known I have gay friends, I would not have been welcome in their home even though I'm straight myself.
 

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Posted by Nato (Member # 1448) on :
 
I'm sorry to hear this, Karl. They aren't being fair to you (or to Chris, for that matter).

And keeping Chris out of family gatherings would be dishonest to the family as well. I'm sorry you have to deal with that, especially because I know my dad would do the same thing.
 

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Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
 
{{{{Karl and Chris}}}}

Unfortunately, I've been hearing a lot of this sort of thing lately. In fact, a friend of mine in another forum recently reported that her gay cousin (who she didn't know was gay because the family had essentially kicked him out and she hadn't seen him in years) had just passed - and his parents refused to acknowledge any of his life past about age 15. All of the pictures, all of the remembrances, all of the guests even, were of him as a child and people who knew him as a child. None of his adult friends, coworkers, etc. were welcomed, most especially his partner.

As for what I would do? I would welcome the relative AND their partner with open arms. Perhaps it helps that my first boyfriend ever realized he was gay a few years after we'd broken up (and remained friends), and he and I became even closer afterwards. Heck, we used to go clubcrawling together, we had very similar tastes in guys except for their orientation LOL
 

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Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
People suck. And Karl, I don't know your exact situation with your family, but I know that I'd take that comment about going to functions without Chris as nothing more than a suggestion. I'd show up, and it wouldn't be alone.
 

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Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
 
Hm. Well, let's say first that I actually came out to my family as gay. Let's say that I gave them a few years to mull it over.

Hm. I bring my significant other to a family function. Not on my dad's side; those're never SO occasions. Well, my mom's family would be awkward at first. But considering the guys I get in relationships with tend to be pretty friendly and charming, could work things out quick enough. My aunts would probably slip off to the kitchen to gossip, but hey, I'd join 'em and leave my SO to fend for himself (I'm cruel in some ways, occasionally). And I would be gossipping with them about my SO, probably.

Karl: This whole thing makes me sick to my stomach. I feel for you so much, not to mention the preview of what's to come for those years while my family adjusts to me being gay scares me. I hope this works out. They're in the wrong here, and frankly, I say you skip the reunion altogether. If my family doesn't want my company as myself, then I feel no need to thrust it upon them.

And hey, if all else fails, we can put together a Hatrack function--your gigantic, extended surrogate family.
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
I'm sorry, Karl. *hugs*

-pH
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
If I were Karl, I would be tempted to go with my SO, anyway, and introduce myself to as many people there as I could with boyfriend. Sometimes the best way to stick it to stupidity is just ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist. Let the idiots take care of themselves. You have every right to be at the family function.

No, I wouldn't have a problem with a gay family member with special friend showing up at any function.
 

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Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
 
Karl, I hurt for you, and Chris. What a slap in the face. I'm so sorry, I wish I could hug you.

(To answer your question, no, I'd never do that)
 

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Posted by Zotto! (Member # 4689) on :
 
I'm sorry you're being treated this way, Karl.

I think that some people here are being unfair to the religious point of view. I think it's valid for a religion to consider the act of homosexuality a sin, even if the relationships of individual homosexuals are as (or even more) loving than a given heterosexual relationship (if such things can even be measured on some empirical scale). Calling them "dumb stupid people" and "deluded" will probably be less effective in changing their views than earnestly discussing things with them without rancor would be. Given the hugely emotional nature of this subject, I think it'd be best if both sides could try to curb their passions and talk about these things rationally.

What I disagree with here is not that some people consider Karl's lifestyle wrong, it's the way they're actively rubbing it in his face and using his sinful lifestyle (as they see it) as an excuse to exclude him and Chris. If they are interested in trying to get Karl and his partner to join them in their community of faith, I think they'd be much better served by making it a point to include them in gatherings like this, where their sexuality is not even remotely relevant.

If Karl was not related to the family, merely a good friend, I would hope that they would recognize that because of his secular views, he should be held to a different standard than their friends who share the same religion (obviously not a lower standard, mind you. Just that they should recognize his differing viewpoint and realize that by the moral code Karl lives by, he's actually a really good dude).

In other words, just because someone does not share your religious views, it's no reason to exclude them from important gatherings. And Karl is family. I don't think the religious people would be out of line if they gave their kids a little talk after the gathering about how people can believe different things and think each other wrong while still respecting and loving each other. What I have a problem with is using a differing perspective as a way to exclude important people from important events. But this isn't a problem only with "the religious", it's a problem with anyone who refuses to find value in other people unless they conform exactly to their idiosyncratic definition of worth.
 

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Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
 
Hold on, do I gather correctly from Karl's post that his father is a remarried divorcee? Doesn't he belong to a religious tradition that's opposed to divorce? And yet it's all right for his second wife to come to this family gathering, but not for Karl's partner to attend?
 

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Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
 
What an awful situation.

I would think Chris is part of the family. You two have a home together, for goodness' sakes.

Many hugs, I hope things work out for the best.
 

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Posted by Glenn Arnold (Member # 3192) on :
 
You know Karl, I had an experience that's perhaps the opposite of what you're going through.

Uncle Bud and his "friend" Ken had been coming to Thanksgiving for years. Some of us knew what this meant, but it wasn't for open discussion. In our family there is no one who would have had a problem with it, but apparently they never opened up, merely because society as a whole isn't accepting, so they were hesitant.

Anyway, one Thanksgiving they showed up but Uncle Bud went off for a walk and didn't hang out with the family much. It turned out they were breaking up, but since there was no formal relationship, it was very awkward to talk about it. Even weirder was the fact that Bud kept himself out of the picture. It's his family after all.

Society has ways of providing support for people who are going through a tough time, but it's awfully hard to give support to someone that's going through a divorce when we never knew they were married.

Yet another reason for gay marriage, in my book.

Anyway, Ken kept coming to Thanksgiving, only now he really was just a friend. Several years later I brought this whole thing up, about how the family had felt kind of helpless during the breakup, and how in our family there was no need to worry about the gay issue, only that we were uncomfortable providing support because it wasn't an open topic.

That was the last time Ken came to Thanksgiving.
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
>> I can't think of a single speech you could give your kids about the evils of homosexual relationships that would counteract their obvious embodiment of the contrary.<<

Speech? Certainly not.

Focusing on other people's sins isn't how you teach your children to follow God's plans. I'd reinforce, instead, the beauty of the Mormon idea of celestial marriage, and the constraints that God has placed on marriage and sexual relationships.

The emphasis isn't on sin, but on obedience. And not OTHER people's obedience, but on your/our own.

If one of our children chooses to pursue a homosexual lifestyle, I can't think of anything better able to drive them away from the gospel of Christ than to alienate and ostracize them. Good, bad, or ugly, I hope I always treat my children like we're an eternal family-- I have no clue how God will judge their actions. All I have is THIS present moment to love them, and gain their trust. I hope they learn to love God and Christ. I hope they are obedient, and that they seek repentence when they stray. My place in God's scheme is to. . . well, love them, gain and keep their trust, teach them the right way to walk, and keep them as safe as I can-- all their whole life long, under my roof or not.

I don't think that can be done at arm's length. We might feel uncomfortable about it, but anyone valuable to our children is a part of our family, and is welcome to our family gatherings.
 

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Posted by Zotto! (Member # 4689) on :
 
'Zactly.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 

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Focusing on other people's sins isn't how you teach your children to follow God's plans. I'd reinforce, instead, the beauty of the Mormon idea of celestial marriage, and the constraints that God has placed on marriage and sexual relationships.

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But I don't think an intelligent way to launch that conversation would be to bring it up the day after the Christmas party, referencing "Uncle Bob and his friend" specifically. Because then you're implicitly critiquing the quality of their relationship and contrasting it with "good" relationships.

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I am trying to find a way to say this that is not offensive.

Unless one is accustomed to detailed discussions of private sexual activities at one's family reunions, how on earth could it matter to those involved? If the child is young enough, a "friend" will just be a "friend," regardless of anyone's gender.

And if the child is old enough to ask questions, then what a perfect time to either:

1) answer those questions, if it is an appropriate time to do so, or

2) clarify what is and is not appropriate for discussion at such a social situation, and then attend to #1 later

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I agree with CT here, that's exactly how I see it. It's not as if my children are never going to see gay couples in their entire lives. Now, there are limits - I wouldn't let a gay couple share a bedroom if they were staying with me, but neither do I allow non-married hetero couples to share bedrooms when they are guests in my home. But not invite them? No, that would be the height of incivility. My grandmother would be ashamed of me.
 

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Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 
Thanks for your support everyone. (And I do feel the support even from those of you who, at heart, disagree with the physical aspect of my relationship with Chris but respect my own right to decide these things for myself. )

quote:

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Originally posted by Dagonee:
Edit: one possibility is that your dad knows his family will act badly toward you and Chris, and he's trying to protect you from it. He's not going about it in a smart way, but it might really stem from a desire to protect you. Still sucks, though.

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quote:

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But I feel like he, of all people should have been more inclined to protect me from the insult than to pass it along.

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This is exactly right. Whatever his feelings on it, he didn't treat you like he valued you as much as he valued the feelings of other members of the family, and that's wrong. He's your dad. He shouldn't have said that, at all. Not to steal your thread, but I've felt like that before - like I was sold down the river to appease other people. I'm so sorry, Karl.

quote:

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In truth, I think this incident is the end of my relationship with my father. Before this, we were civil - well, actually I was civil. He has been downright cordial when I've had any contact with him. But the problem is that back when I used to try to clear the air and tell him why I have the negative feelings about him that I do he has claimed to never remember one single incident of the many I have related. He has always taken the position of the father of the prodigal son, even eager in his own mind to have me back while never noticing that there is nothing for me to go back to. He's genuinely mystified that we don't have a daddy/son relationship as adults, even though we never had one when I was a child. I have spent my whole adult life feeling vaguely guilty that perhaps I haven't done enough, or cared enough, or had too much pride to just put it all behind me. But the bottom line is that if I strip away all the negative memories and feelings, I have so little left to work with that I end up trying to find a dad in a complete stranger.

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Flip a few pronouns, and this is my relationship with my dad. If you figure something out, let me know.

[ December 12, 2005, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
 
Oh heck. I'm sorry, Karl.

Compared to your experience, my relationship with my father has been positively peachy. I come from the standpoint that if I forgive my father for the stupid, stupid things he has done, there is still a very good relationship to be salvaged. Obviously that isn't the case in your situation, and I wish it wasn't so.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
Yeah. You can't do much when one person pretends there was never any problem. I'm with imogen - I'm glad my dad and I were able to clear the air and come together before he died.

I'm so sorry, Karl. And Katie. *hugs*
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
That sucks Karl. *hugs*
AJ
 

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Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 

quote:

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Now, there are limits - I wouldn't let a gay couple share a bedroom if they were staying with me, but neither do I allow non-married hetero couples to share bedrooms when they are guests in my home.

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quote:

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Not to steal your thread, but I've felt like that before - like I was sold down the river to appease other people. I'm so sorry, Karl.

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quote:

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please forgive me if I accept them with a modicum of skepticism.

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No forgiveness necessary, I mentioned it only because I've had someone point out something like that to me and been able to use it as the beginning of reconciliation, and I was very grateful to the person who pointed out the alternative viewpoint. Unfortunately, it sounds like your Dad has spit on any benefit of the doubt that might have existed.

Chris should be able to take some comfort that you don't seem to have learned this behavior from your dad. (Edit: By this, I mean you are doing very well by Chris in a very difficult situation.)
 

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Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
 
I'm really sorry that your father has treated you this way. I honestly can't believe that he would suggest such a thing.

As to your question, I would always welcome my family members and the people they care about to spend time with me. I know my immediate family would feel the same way (I can't speak for my extended family as I don't spend a lot of time with them or know them very well). I have been very proud of my parents in their dealings with my brother (who has chosen to pursue a different theological/philosophical path in life). While his lifestyle may not be what they would choose for him, they have welcomed him and his girlfriend into their home. I wish you could have the same kind of loving experience. Though you may not have it from your biological family, know that you at least have the love and support of your Hatrack family.
 

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Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 
I've spent the better part of my life since I was 16 trying to eradicate parts of my personality that I believe I got from my dad. I still cringe when someone says "You got that from your dad."

To be fair (or to make matters worse, I don't know) my dad is usually pretty well liked by those who don't have intimate emotional contact with him. He's the kind of guy who will buy two of something on sale and give one to the neighbors. But he's also the kind of guy who will tell my 12 year old sister that if his wife leaves him it will be all her fault.
 

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Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
Wow. More confirmation that you are an amazing guy.

I'm so sorry that you have to go through this "stuff".
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
>.<
 

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Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
 
I agree with what CT said. I had the thought upon reading the thread that any child who saw them together would probably think nothing of it. Unfortunately I don't think the situation would be that easily glossed over. If Chris and Karl at the reunion hold hands or kiss or flirt or do any of the hundreds of things that a couple in love does, then even the most MTV-sheltered child is going to wonder why two grown up male friends were kissing. And the way children are, they would probably wonder right then and there, and very vocally. But I think all it would take would be some maturity and foresight on the part of the adults to head off the awkwardness and embarassment that this could cause. As for your father Karl, I'm really sorry The really sad thing is that he'll probably remember the phone call completely different or have forgotten it all together by this time next year.
 

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Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 
No one is likely to see us kissing in public, but your point is still valid.
 

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Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
I'm also sorry, Karl, of the way your father handled this.

quote:

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Who here would have a problem with a gay family member attending a family function with a partner? If so, why, exactly? Would you actually ask that family member to leave their partner at home?

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quote:

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I remember one grueling hike where one jerk with some bug up his hindquarters walked behind me for probably a mile throwing pebbles at my backpack while singing some filthy song about my mother

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That makes me so sad and anrgy, for both you and your mom.
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
Ugh. I'm sorry this is happening to you, Karl-both in the past and present. The reason I don't think your father was trying to shield you from harm was that he didn't give you the option of avoiding it.

If he had, the method of the thing would've been quite different. "Karl, I know these people, and if you show up with Chris at functions, there will be insults and criticisms. I just wanted you to know that." No, this sounds very much to me like it has more to do with him-protecting him from insults and criticism, and permitting him to maintain his obliviousness.

I'm sorry he's such a frosty schmuck
 

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Posted by tern (Member # 7429) on :
 
Tom, I have no idea how I would handle the talk, but I sure wouldn't use your words or ideas.

Karl, it sounds like your dad doesn't have much of a backbone, and it extends far beyond the decisions that you have made that he disagrees with, and started far earlier. I think that he's a good example of what not to do. I hope that as a father, I have the balls to confront difficult issues head-on, even if I am ultimately wrong.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I have wondered that about my own dad - he's not cruel; he's a pansy. I get shafted because I won't get mad. That's why once I decided to give up on that and start getting pissed, I started getting treated twenty times better.

I hate that I have to throw a fit in order to not get shafted. I really do hate it - once I figured out that was the only way to make the interactions okay for me, I quit most interactions altogether because I hate acting like that.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 

quote:

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Tom, I have no idea how I would handle the talk, but I sure wouldn't use your words or ideas.

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That's a relief. We wouldn't want your kids growing up cynical but well-adjusted.

Seriously, I have difficulty imagining the conversation that would take place following any visit from Karl and Chris, since the two of them are so obviously good for each other. It would have to include some form of "now, ignore the evidence of your senses...."
 

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Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 
Wow Katie. It's like you're reading my mind. I feel exactly like that when I have to deal with my dad.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

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It would have to include some form of "now, ignore the evidence of your senses...."

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A lot of moral teaching does include some form of "Even though that looks pretty good, it ultimately is not good for you."

Come to think of it, so does a lot of nutritional advice.
 

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Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
 
Karl, I'm truly sorry.


This thanksgiving, my best friend from high school had thanksgiving dinner with my family. He's gay, and the arrangement he has with his (conservative jews) parents is very similar to the don't ask don't tell policy the military has. Everyone KNOWS he's gay, but they don't ask, and he doesn't bring his boyfriend to family functions, other then sometimes as a friend if friends are appropriate.

My friends bf's family are orthodox jews, and his homosexuality is much more out in the open, and respected far less then my friends homosexuality.

So anyrate, jon had dinner with us, because morty was having dinner with his family... and jons family dinner was on friday, to which morty would not be coming.

I couldn't really understand the family dynamics that encourages the misery that those two went through that week. I still can't. Its frustrating that people are such jerks, sometimes.
 

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Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
 
Yikes Karl...
That sucks.
((KarlEd))
Mmmmm... I'm tempted to say go to the function and bring Chris along anyway. See what happens. See if anyone has the orbs to say something.

My nuclear family has absoutly no problems with me being gay or me having someone over. The extended family might be a little different. I've never had a chance to show off a boyfriend to them. They all live in Chicago and are very Catholic...and while they are cool with me being gay on a rational level, I think think half of them are not totally comfortable with it.

One time when my brother and I went to visit after my Mom's death, the converseation at the dinner table got around to me talking about gay rights. Everyone except my cool lawyer Aunt got really quiet. I didn't notice right away until Matt pointed it out to me later that night.

I just assumed they had no problem. But I can see how some of them might possibly one day ask me not to bring my partner along or something. If that ever happens I would either have some choice words for them, or I would just ignore their request and do it anyway.

But I think they are like my Dad...it took him about a year or two after I came out to get really comfortable with me bing gay. Many of them have never talked to me about it or heard me talk about it much or seen me with a boy. They just need to get used to it.
 

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Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 
Several people have told me that I should just go and take Chris anyway. I'm not going to do that because I love Chris too much to make him a political martyr. The people who are really losing out in this are my family. Chris is one of the nicest, most genuinely open and friendly guys you'll meet. If they're willing to shun him without even having met him, well, that's a personality trait that ultimately hurts each of them, in the long run as much as it hurts anyone else, in the fact of the matter, if not as acutely anyway. I hurt, too, but I also have the comfort of knowing Chris as a person and that's no small comfort indeed. My thrusting him in their faces isn't going to make him feel more accepted, nor is it going to make them any more likely to see past their own blinders.

The sad part is that I have no idea how pervasive this feeling is on the part of my extended family, nor even who exactly feels this way. I can just write them all off and avoid the whole issue, but that seems cowardly, and I know that at least some of my relatives would be happy to meet Chris.

I'm thinking of writing an open letter to the family, explaining what has happened from my perspective, stating that because of these feelings and the cabalish nature in which they were expressed I no longer feel comfortable joining in with them in a family reunion. However, I do love my family and would like to strengthen connections with those of them who care enough to get to know me and Chris, who is a part of me now. To that end, I am planning a trip to Utah to visit my sister and would love to include any side-trips to visit with any family members who still want to know me (and not just the fantasy they wish I was.) Then I can concentrate my efforts on anyone who responds positively. If that's no one, well, at least I know it's unanimous and I won't feel guilty about writing off the whole lot.

(??)
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
That sounds good, KarlEd.

Good luck.
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 

quote:

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We wouldn't want your kids growing up cynical but well-adjusted.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Scott R:

quote:

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We wouldn't want your kids growing up cynical but well-adjusted.

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I don't think cynical people are well-adjusted. In fact, an attitude of general cynicism is proof that something is wrong.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Paul Goldner:
My friends bf's family are orthodox jews, and his homosexuality is much more out in the open, and respected far less then my friends homosexuality.

So anyrate, jon had dinner with us, because morty was having dinner with his family...

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Just out of curiosity (and completely off-topic), does Morty do an eerily convincing impression of Whitney Houston? If so, I think I know him.
 

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Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 
I've done the write it and chuck it thing before. (Not the least right here on this forum ) But in this case I think there are things that need to be said, not just vented. I will write it and wait a day or two before sending it just to check for unnecessary bile, but if I don't send it, I'll feel like I'm just being a doormat.

My father needs an eternity of reflection, but I'm not sure that will make a difference. He told my brother that he doesn't understand why I would be upset since it seems to him to have been a perfectly reasonable request.

It's pathetic really. He has succeeded in alienating each of his children. My mom can hardly utter a sentence about him without getting either extremely angry or bursting into tears, yet he just expressed (in a note he passed to my brother-in-law in the church parking lot, no less ) that although he doesn't understand why everyone is treating him badly, he's confident that the adversity is being sent to make him stronger. He clearly thinks he's Job.
 

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Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
I don't think there can be any absolute statements with regard to cynicism. In some instances, cynicism (or perhaps we should label it skepticism) will save your hide. In others, it will merely help you avoid embarrassment. In still others, it will cause you to miss some beautiful things that life has to offer. And in the worst case, a cynic will become so wrapped up in seeing the bad side of things that they will poison their own life and those who come into intimate contact with them.
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 

quote:

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I don't think cynical people are well-adjusted. In fact, an attitude of general cynicism is proof that something is wrong.
____

...with the world.

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quote:

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I am skeptical about the recent goodwill of Libya.

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Yeah, given that they just assassinated an outspoken critic in Lebanon (along with his driver and bodyguard)...
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
I think you've chosen the right decision, Karl. I mean from the outside, where the only real emotions are sympathy and pity for your family situation and righteous anger about it, I'd say, sure! Show up with Chris, that'll show `em!

But it's not a movie, it's actually happening, or rather would happen. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses
 

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Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 

quote:

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I've done the write it and chuck it thing before. (Not the least right here on this forum ) But in this case I think there are things that need to be said, not just vented. I will write it and wait a day or two before sending it just to check for unnecessary bile, but if I don't send it, I'll feel like I'm just being a doormat.

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quote:

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After you write it, you still have to decide whether or not to mail it.

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quote:

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If you write a letter you don't know if you want to send or not, do not write it as an email.

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Good advice, but considering most of my extended family are practically luddites, that's not going to be a fear of mine. This will be snail-mail or not at all.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 

quote:

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He told my brother that he doesn't understand why I would be upset since it seems to him to have been a perfectly reasonable request.

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Wow. This is exactly what my stepmother, dad, and grandmother said when I was upset about being cut from the guest list at my brother's wedding in favor of his roommate.

I'm sorry I don't have advice. I tried three different things, but I don't think any of them work. My stepmother I hung up the phone on and stopped talking to her, my dad I told that it proved that I didn't have a family, and to my grandmother I burst into tears. Nothing really changed with any of them, although things are basically fine with my grandparents. I suspect that's in part because of me - they were also not invited and didn't seem to mind. Even if they were faking that (which seems possible), maybe saying it was no big deal was how they dealt with it.
 

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Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 


(You don't suppose we're related somewhow? It's really scarey to think that there are two such families around.)
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I think the hard part is that I really don't want to be the bad guy - I don't want to be the reason I'm not close to my family. However, I suspect that my dad and I are exactly as close as he wants to be. He would like me to be happy with it, but he wants me to be happy with how he's dicated things, as opposed to finding a way for me to be happy as me. Does that make sense?

Added: *laugh* It does seem like we should be, right?

I've been thinking and thinking about it, to try and find some causes. I think part of it is that my dad has married (twice) a very socially-savvy woman, so he relies on her to maintain his relationships for him. That's why things were basically fine when my mom was alive - she could do that. But my stepmother certainly can't and shouldn't be asked to, so when my dad is on his own to maintain his own relationships, the above is the result.

On one hand, he clearly doesn't know what he's doing. On the other, he's in his fifties, and it's not that freaking hard. It's time to figure it out - maybe he could pick up a book.
 

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Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 
That makes more sense than I care to admit.

My father wrote to me for nearly a year after I "came out" about how now that I lived in Baltimore it would be nice to be able to meet together in DC and do temple work sometime. ( ). I finally wrote him a letter than said he could keep writing to this fictitious son he seems to wish he had, but if he expected any further response he ought to write letters to me instead. The next one was addressed to both me and Douglas. Too bad the progress seems to have stopped there.
 

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Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 

quote:

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I've been thinking and thinking about it, to try and find some causes. I think part of it is that my dad has married (twice) a very socially-savvy woman, so he relies on her to maintain his relationships for him. That's why things were basically fine when my mom was alive - she could do that. But my stepmother certainly can't and shouldn't be asked to, so when my dad is on his own to maintain his own relationships, the above is the result.

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quote:

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On one hand, he clearly doesn't know what he's doing. On the other, he's in his fifties, and it's not that freaking hard. It's time to figure it out - maybe he could pick up a book.

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quote:

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since she can't help but think we're all just being mean.

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