I've had far too many of my guy friends tell me lately that they're sick of the way that girls only go after total jerks.
It may be true that overall, jerks tend to be way more successful with women than "nice guys." Maybe not in terms of who gets married first, but probably in terms of who's just more popular.
Here's why I think this is the case: Nice guys are far more likely to be possessive and clingy than jerks. Given the choice between someone who gives far too much space and someone who gives far too little, most girls would much rather have too much.
Am I totally off-base in thinking this is a possible reason?
-pH
Posted by Dante (Member # 1106) on :
Pearce...why haven't you called me back? <wrings hands>
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
What are you doing outside my window?! It was YOU who sent that severed finger, wasn't it?
-pH
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
Sounds reasonable to me.
And, in OSC's Homebody, Don Lark points out that many girls in his high school simply had an attraction to the "alpha male," who also tends to be a jerk.
--j_k
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
This blog (second one down, entitled "What Women Want") has the best explanation for this phenomenon I have ever seen. Plus it has a picture of Gregory House. *drools*
Okay, just kidding about drooling over Dr. House. Really.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
I haven't read Homebody but the "alpha male" attraction seems right on to me. Either consciously or subconsciously, a girl knows that her man/mate is reflective of her. Guys that are popular, socially-adaptive, successful will make a girl look good because if she can win a guy like despite competition, she's something special.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: Guys that are popular, socially-adaptive, successful will make a girl look good...
And yet this doesn't explain why a girl, faced with a choice between two equally popular, socially-adaptive, and successful men, will almost always choose the jerkier one. Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I think a certain part of it is girls being self destructive, and/or they want someone they can attempt to tame.
For whatever reason, many girls like to find a messed up jerk and try to "fix" him, instead of going for a guy that's already stable. I've also found that when they're older and done with their jerk getting, women want a nice guy to settle down with, but not until they've had all their fun with the jerks.
Crappy system if you ask me.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Nice guys can be unstable, too.
Those are usually the ones who turn into stalkers.
-pH
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
I agree with Lyrhawn.
But I want to add that "taming" a tough guy, hooking that guy who is rude and never attaches himself genuinely to any girl, its quite an accomplishment in some peoples' eyes. Its kinda like saying to all those other girls, "Look how I succeeded, I win!" I noticed most girls are never able to reform their "bad boy" but they try anyway.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Okay, stalker != nice guy.
The terms are mutually exclusive.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Must be the different mentality between men and women. Were I a woman, I'd want to find the nice guy who I was compatable with, who wanted to do nice things for me and shared my interests, but that also wasn't a total tool.
Then I'd brag to all the girls stuck with jerks who they have to waste their time trying to fix.
Women really are from another planet.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
[To be fair, I think one has to take into account the number of guys who seek out "shallow" girls Hmm.]
--j_k
[edit] This was supposed to be attached to my prev. post, but whatever.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
In my early dating years, it was a matter of no to low self esteem and thinking I wasn't worthy of the nicer ones. Or perhaps not being able to differentiate between nice vs. jerk. As my self-esteem improved over the years, I went for progressively nicer guys.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
quote: Were I a woman, I'd want to find the nice guy who I was compatable with, who wanted to do nice things for me and shared my interests, but that also wasn't a total tool.
Those are harder to find than you think.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
I'm sitting here wondering how much the general feeling of there being a disproportionate number of "nice guys" losing girls to "jerks" might be due to a disproportionate number of guys who are in fact clingy/whiny/stalkerish, but think that they are part of the group of "nice guys" being passed over... Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
My first crushes were on nice guys, then I had one decide he liked me, and basically go into stalker mode instead of nice relationship mode, it was quite bad and i was upset for a while, so after that, jerks who won't cling are so so much better.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
<-- also remembers dating "nice" guys who ended up being sort of creepy clingy/stalkery, who loudly bemoaned the plight of "nice guys" when I went on to date guys with self-confidence and less scary ideas about what relationships should be like... Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
I think Zeugma has a really good point there. Lot's of people think of themselves as Nice Guys who really aren't all that nice. (The guy who made ChicksSuck.com is a prime example of this.)
One of the most glaring reason for the discrepency in the case of actual nice guys and actual jerks is that the "jerks" tend to actually ask women out, and thus get dates. Many nice guys will pine away but be too shy to ask a girl out or too "polite" to make a move.
See also the trailer for "The Libertine"
--Enigmatic
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
::was thinking the same thing Zeugma was::
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I'm a nice, funny guy who isn't a stalker and also isn't a tool. Most of my guy friends are too (well, no, actually half of them are tools). But still.
If we're so hard to find, why the heck are we all single?
Edit to add: Alright, I'll cop to also being a somewhat shy guy who doesn't ask girls out as often as the jerks do.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
Enig, that's basically how this guy was, like he was shy, then I said a few really stupid flirty things, and he started with dumb ideas to get me to like him. It lasted three months before i totally blocked him out of my life.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote: If we're so hard to find, why the heck are we all single?
Because you're so hard to find?
Posted by sarahdipity (Member # 3254) on :
And always giving into someone and not having opinions or personality don't make you nice. Nor does wanting to only talk about her.
Girls don't want boring guys. Girls don't want guys who will just follow them around like a lost puppy. Girls don't want guys who will give up their life for them.
And sometimes when nice guys try to get a girl they let all their insecurities (and such show) and they then tend to do those things. And those things are not very interesting.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
You could always flirt with online girls lyrhawn.
Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
Zeugma and Enig have it right. Jerks often have the self confidence to make the first move. Jerks are also better at moving on, so there's less stalkerish possibilities. Of course, there's the balancing factor that they sometimes move on kinda unexpectedly...
But real nice guys are pretty rare. There are a lot of shy guys that look like nice guys, but who are on the creepy side if you spend too much time with them.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I have a pet theory about this.
I think it's because relationships with jerks are exciting. You rarely see good, strong relationships on tv because there's no drama to it. What people want to see are the exciting relationships with lots of pain and anguish and hot sex. I think a lot of girls don't get that what is fun and makes great tv doesn't really make a great relationship.
To use my favorite example (Spoilers for Seasons 5 and 6 of Buffy): I love the Spike/Buffy storyline on Buffy. I think Spike is pretty near the sexiest man alive and their relationship makes me need. I can't think of any other word for it, it's the same feeling I get that makes me read the next book in a great series and be heartbroken when the series is done. In my mind, it's the feeling that is most directly related to good storytelling. I love watching their relationship, and specifically I love watching Spike, all the time but especially when he's being snarky. My friends are all very used to our viewing of Buffy being interrupted with statements like, "OMG I want to have sex with him right now!"
In reality though, if I saw Spike I would run the other way, as would any sane person. The idea of actually being Buffy in that relationship is enough to give me nightmares, and there's no way I would have sex with Spike and give him that kind of power over me. Luckily, as Spike is a fictional vampire, this senario has zero chance of actually occurring. But there are so many guys like Spike out there. I think a lot of girls don't realize that the guys they like in books and movies and stories are not the kind of guys they really want to be with. They transfer that need into a desire for a relationship with a guy like Spike, and go headlong into that relationship without thinking that as sexy as Spike is, Buffy is miserable with him.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Self-confidence is the most attractive thing I've ever seen anyone wear. Posted by WntrMute (Member # 7556) on :
Jerks are confident in who they are. Women, generally, like confidence. Jerks say things that they think are amusing, regardless of what other people may think. This makes it appear that they have a better sense of humor than they may actually have.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
You single breyer? Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
yep totally
Edit: except for being one of Jebus's six wives, so I'm sure he'd share. Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
I think one of the reasons shy guys can go into creepy stalker mode is they probably don't have much actual experience with dating. It's not that these guys are terrible people (not most of them, anyway) it's just that they have no idea how to act in an actual relationship or how to deal with the breakup. They're like 12-year olds experience-wise when it comes to women even though they're much older. Most of them just need to go through a few relationships to learn better behavior.
--Enigmatic (will not share the worst of his dating stories here)
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I agree, Enigmatic.
Hm...maybe you could create some kind of online instruction manual showing them the ropes.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
Oh that's exactly the case of my creepy stalker guy, though he wasn't even much older, just 17. He is now in what seems to be a fairly stable relationship with a girl who he actually was able to see more often.
Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, Noemon. Because I totally already did that, and it's been linked to on Sakeriver previously.
By the way, two of the "nice" guys who inspired this list got really ticked at me for posting it.
--Enigmatic
Edit: It may have been linked here as well, but I'm not sure.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I hadn't read that list, I'll have to read it when I'm more awake.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Not sarcastic, exactly, but I was making reference to your webcomic. Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
See, I'm single because I have the disconcerting habit of treating women like people. If I treated them like goddesses, acting like I was not worthy to bask in their magnificence, then I could get the women with big egos.
If I treated them like crap, like I didn't give a damn what they thought about anything and like they were lucky to have me, then they'd all think I was one of those cool "bad boys", and they'd all flock to me.
But I treat them as equals; I feel that no one is actually better than me, but that I'm not better than anyone else, either. I treat everyone decently until they give me reason to do otherwise. And in my experience, women hate that.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote: It's not that these guys are terrible people (not most of them, anyway) it's just that they have no idea how to act in an actual relationship or how to deal with the breakup. They're like 12-year olds experience-wise when it comes to women even though they're much older. Most of them just need to go through a few relationships to learn better behavior.
Wow, that totally describes how I used to be. My first real relationship was with a girl I had been "in love" with for years and years, and I thought that my happiness in this world depended on our relationship succeeding. So I was always nervous about how I was acting, what I was saying. Every argument was a total disaster. The thought of us breaking up was the worst thing imaginable. I was twenty years old, but with the romantic experience of a pre-teen.
Of course that made me rather pathetic, and not a very good boyfriend. So of course we ended up breaking up. And you know what? The sun rose the next day, I didn't collapse and die in a state of despair, and in fact it was in a lot of ways a big relief.
Since then, I have become quite a confident individual, and can actually experience an adult relationship in a non-desperate way. And hey, I am still a nice guy .
Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
I thought you might be.
I wasn't going to actually post it, because of the language and assorted filth, but now I feel bad for discussing it when there are others who probably haven't read it. So here go the LINKAGE WARNINGS: The link below has swear words. The link below has sexual language and topics. The link below has blatant gender stereotyping. The link below may be considered thoroughly offensive to some people. The link below has crappily-drawn stick figure art. The Link in Question.
Okay, actually the link doesn't have all of that, because you have to hit the "next strip" links to see all the comics. But, you know, you were warned.
--Enigmatic
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Also, I think a lot of the time the "quiet, shy, but really good at heart" guy wants the really hot popular girl and doesn't get girls because he's not willing to go out with the girls that are in the same social strata with him.
Posted by Parsimony (Member # 8140) on :
I think half the time I fall into the jerk category and the other half the time I fall into the shy/nice category. This has the benefit of allowing me to get a girlfriend through self-confidence and allowing me to keep that girlfriend through not being completely mean to her. It's an excellent system, I would recommend it. As far as I know, my girlfriend of four years is a fan of the system as well.
--ApostleRadio
[ December 14, 2005, 10:58 PM: Message edited by: Parsimony ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: And in my experience, women hate that.
But they're otherwise your equals, right? Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
I don't know who these women are. The majority of girls I know fall head-over-heel for their best male friends. These are people they have comfortable, equal relationships with.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
All I said was that they hate being treated as equals. I didn't say that made them not my equals.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
quote: This has the benefit of allowing me to get a girlfriend through self-confidence and allowing me to keep that girlfriend through not being completely mean to her. It's an excellent system, I would reccomend it.
Aww, you sound like my boyfriend. He has a mean streak in him but he's a complete sweetheart to me. He had a certain amount of elusive confidence that made me want to chase him down, and when he did show his interest in me he did it subtly.
Posted by WntrMute (Member # 7556) on :
quote:Originally posted by Verily the Younger: See, I'm single because I have the disconcerting habit of treating women like people. If I treated them like goddesses, acting like I was not worthy to bask in their magnificence, then I could get the women with big egos.
Actually, I don't think so. Women with big egos are usually very confident. They want a confident man, because they figure they deserve it. They don't want a floormat.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
quote:The majority of girls I know fall head-over-heel for their best male friends.
If it really worked that way, I'd have had plenty of girlfriends by now. I've certainly been good friends with enough girls over the years. But they don't think of me as a potential partner. They think of me as "one of the girls". I've actually had girls tell me that explicitly. Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I tend to fall into the same trap Verily. Five of my best friends are girls, but it doesn't really bother me cause I have no romantic attractive to four of them.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
There's a very distinct line between the "best guy friend" and the "just friend" friends. Maybe its just me, but all my male friends are guys that I would never date for a long-list of reasons but I keep around because I like the attention and the break from girly-gossping.
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
See, this I do not get. Why would I want to date someone who hadn't already proven themselves as a friend?
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I don't generally date friends not because I'm afraid of ruining the friendship, but because I'm the kind of person who, should I feel the "spark" of dating potential, will act on it quickly.
If you've got a chance, go for it already.
-pH
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Hear that, Dante? Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
quote:Girls don't want boring guys. Girls don't want guys who will just follow them around like a lost puppy. Girls don't want guys who will give up their life for them.
I would have to agree that this is my experience. When I am acting wild, it is very easy for me to catch girl's attention. But in every relationship I turn into lost puppy they quickly lose interest.
Posted by WntrMute (Member # 7556) on :
The friendzone is an unending misery. Do not go to the friendzone unless it is someone you never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever want to have a more meaningful relationship with. I think I have known only one couple where they went from the friendzone into a relationship. Every other instance I have seen or experienced has ended badly. I am not saying don't make friends with people of the opposite gender. I have many friends of the opposite gender. However, my lack of romantic interest in them mirrors theirs in me. The "being friends so I can scoop them up when they get dumped" plan hardly ever works, and usually requires such a degree of dishonesty that even if it does work it won't work for long.
But, yeah, once in a while, maybe it could happen. I suspect you'll have better odds playing lotto.
Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
Why does it seem like only guys gets stuck in the "friendzone?" Girls don't seem to have this problem.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
Cause girls can have male friends without being attracted to them. Very rarely do girls use friendship as a means of getting close to a guy. My bf has a lot of friends who are girls and only one has ever been interested in him. Their relationship went physical for awhile and then slackened back into being casual acquaintances.
Posted by WntrMute (Member # 7556) on :
Shanna, was that one case a 'friends with benefits' arrangement? I've known girls who got sucked into that kind of arrangement against their better judgement when they tried the friendzone => relationship scheme. They both ended up pretty unhappy and pretty screwed up by the end of it. Then again, it is kind of screwed up to try that path in the first place.
Dishonesty is not attractive.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
It was. She wanted a boyfriend, he told her he wasn't interested, she tried to win him over with sex and as a guy he didn't fight it. After awhile, he got sick of the whole game and broke it off.
"Friends with benefits" without or without the hopes of starting a relationship never go well.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
My problem with meeting girls, is that everyone says "go to the bar" so I go to the bar, but the girls who go to bars aren't the type of girls I would ever have a serious or even non-serious but tolerable relationship with.
I have a low tolerance for immature girls who are obsessed with partying, which is seems the majority of girls my age seem to be. Whenever I DO find a girl with the same interests as me, we tend to become automatic friends.
I'm not really as stressed about it now as I used to be. I casually go to bars and meet new people at school all the time. If something looks or feels right in the future, I'll go for it, but I'm largely over the bitterness and self loathing that sustained me in my late teens.
Posted by Dante (Member # 1106) on :
quote:Hear that, Dante?
I do.
Tom...oh, what the heck! Will you go out with me?
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
I never understood the big obsession with having to have someone. Being single has always been for me preferable to wasting my time on guys that weren't for me. Its nice to have someone and sometimes its lonely, but having the confidence to be comfortable with being single...that can be incredibly attractive.
I don't go to bars because I know the temptation to fall for those bad frat boyos is there but I also know its not what I want. I'd only recommend going to bars in case you meet that girl who was dragged by her girlfriends and isn't feeling the vibe. And besides, not all girls that go to bars are big party-types. Its not the best place to look, but eh.
So do look for girls who you have a connection with mutual or platonic, because the only real difference is that mutual spark. And that always seems to come with a person is least expecting in. Don't look for a boyfriend/girlfriend, just meet people, lots of people, smile and let it happen.
Posted by WntrMute (Member # 7556) on :
I second what Shanna says, and add don't settle. If you have doubts about a relationship, listen to them, understand them, and realistically evaluate them. Factors that do not count in that evaluation are: a) I will never find anyone else b) This is my only chance at love c) This is the best I could hope to do
Seriously. If you want kids and they don't (or vice versa), move on. If they don't enjoy the things you enjoy and can't stand the thought of you doing those things even just occasionally, move on. If they start demanding that you break off all other relationships other than the one with them, run (do not walk) to the nearest exit immediately. I think this is good advice to anyone of any gender and any orientation. Not topical, perhaps, but important.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
quote:Cause girls can have male friends without being attracted to them.
I resent the implication, intentional or otherwise, that guys can't.
I've been friends with many, many girls in my life. I get along with girls much more easily than guys. At this particular moment in my life, I happen to have more guy friends that I see and hang out with on a regular basis, but this is basically the first time in my life that's been true. In high school I almost never hung out with guys; almost all my friends were girls. Even in elementary school, I got along with girls better than with boys. I never thought girls were "icky" or "had cooties" or any of that gibberish. I've always viewed girls as being human and my equals.
I was not in any way "attracted to" the vast majority of them. Actually, once I get as far as the "friend" stage, I tend to lose the ability to become attracted. My current longest-running female friend started out as a crush on my part, but since her feelings for me were entirely non-romantic and non-sexual, we only hung out as friends. As a result, I quickly lost my crush on her and came to view her simply as a friend. We're still friends today, and I can't imagine even trying to "go out with" or "get with" her in any way. Not for fear of what it would do to the friendship, but merely because I just don't have those kinds of feelings for her.
When I made my comment earlier about how if it were true that girls fall for guy friends then I would have lots of girlfriends, I didn't actually mean it literally. It was just my snide way of saying no girls ever fall for me. I'm not saying I would in any way accept a relationship with a girl who did fall for me if I didn't have feelings for her.
Posted by WntrMute (Member # 7556) on :
Verily, that's not what the friendzone is. The friendzone is when you are scheming to use the friendship as a launching pad into a deeper relationship. It isn't regular friendship.
I don't think there's any disagreement here, maybe just some fuzzy definitions and miscommunication.
Or I'm wrong. Either way.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Not all girls who go to bars are the crazy party types. Especially if you're in college and have college bars near campus. It's something to do on a Friday night, and it's a good way to meet new people.
I've met some really cool people at bars. I've met some really cool people at parties and concerts, too. I don't think it's fair to say that all girls who go to bars are crazy partiers. Of course, that depends on your definition of "partier." I don't consider myself a party girl, but I like to go out, drink, and have a good time. I guess when I think of "party girls," I think of the ones who do crazy drugs and have tons of promiscuous sex.
Also, not all friends with benefits arrangements are bad. I mean, it's true that a lot of people who get into them are on some level hoping it'll turn into a relationship, but if both of you really are on the same page in that respect, they can be fun.
Of course, I'm also a big fan of casual dating. Which is very similar to friends with benefits.
-pH
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
Yeah, Mute is right. I meant it in terms of the friendzone. I do agree that men and women can have valuable and equal platonic relationships with one another. The point I was making is that women are less likely to enter into the friendzone in order to hook a man into a romantic relationship.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
quote:I mean, it's true that a lot of people who get into them are on some level hoping it'll turn into a relationship, but if both of you really are on the same page in that respect, they can be fun.
Except that it rarely works that way. Sex creates complications even beyond those which can be circumvented through contraception. One or the other partner can form an emotional attachment that they did not expect to form and that is not reciprocated just because sex itself is such an intimate act. To me, the risk would not be worth it. I don't believe in taking sex casually, though that's just me. Your mileage may vary.
quote:The point I was making is that women are less likely to enter into the friendzone in order to hook a man into a romantic relationship.
Ah. Well, quite possibly. I know I've never tried it, because I don't think it works. But like I said, once I reach the friend level, I usually can't feel attraction anyway. So it would be counterproductive, for me at least, to attempt that tactic.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Well, yes, I agree that friends with benefits are a bad idea in most cases. But for some people, it works. And I wasn't speaking exclusively of sex.
-pH
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
I'm wondering what else "with benefits" means. A salary? Health insurance?
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Every so often I see this topic come up. I must assume that I am not a normal female, because I always fell for guy friends, unless I found them unsavory in some way. Granted, they have to have a certain level of charisma in order for me to be interested, but that is simply an important part of what attracts me. Jerkiness is in no way a requirement and has always been a huge turn-off for me.
quote:Girls don't seem to have this problem.
I beg to differ. Girls *do* have this problem. They just don't whine about it as much as men do. (Actually, they whine about it plenty, but they also tend to be girls who in general have a hard time getting a date for whatever reason. In other words, they aren't the same girls that guys are wishing they could get lucky with.)
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Verily the Younger: I'm wondering what else "with benefits" means. A salary? Health insurance?
You know, all those other fun physical things that don't include sex. Making out, cuddling, sharing a bed, uh....you know. Things.
-pH
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
Physical intimacy. Right. Everything I said about the complications of sex still applies. Physical intimacy has the potential for complications that ordinary friendship does not typically have.
Posted by Chreese Sroup (Member # 8248) on :
Women want something they can work with.
Nice guys you can walk all over.
Jerks usually are ones that you can communicate with and understand from a womans point of view, or at least predict somewhat of what will happen. But you can usually work things out without it being completely lopsided.
I can't say any more.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I think the key is finding that special someone who is operating on the same wavelength you are. If both people want to be just friends, that's good. If both people want to be cuddling, good. Both casual sex, good.
Where you run into problems, obviously, is where one person wants to be friends, the other doesn't. Or the one person lies about wanting to be friends because they don't want to look like a bitch, but they really don't, and the other person can't get over their feelings for them, etc.
I rarely have straight female friends. I find most straight women pretty boring and irritating. On the other hand, I want to screw them.
I do best with bi or gay women, if I'm going to have friendships with the opposite sex. They're just more dude like, as lame as that sounds, and I can have fun with them. Maybe it's just so many otaku-type girls are that way. Dunno.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote: I think the key is finding that special someone who is operating on the same wavelength you are. If both people want to be just friends, that's good. If both people want to be cuddling, good. Both casual sex, good.
While I agree, I think this needs to be amended to say that it only works if both parties are mature enough to truly know what it is they want. I think when getting into these more casual relationships, people frequently "settle". They would like a serious relationship with somebody they care about/ see a future with, but right in front of them is somebody that they don't really care about but they can have fun with. So they settle for the less while they still want the more. Add on to this the emotional complications of physical intimacy, I don't think such a situation leads to happy things.
Posted by Dante (Member # 1106) on :
quote:I'm wondering what else "with benefits" means. A salary? Health insurance?
quote:You know, all those other fun physical things that don't include sex. Making out, cuddling, sharing a bed, uh....you know. Things.
You know, being fairly recently single I can say that I do miss the fun physical things. But as a grad student, I have to admit that if a relationship comes along that includes health insurance, that would be good, too.
I guess I'm looking for friendship, companionship, kissing, and physical intimacy together with a reasonable deductible, limited exclusions and limitations, and full dental.
Is that so much to ask?
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I would also like health insurance.
And perhaps a personal chef. Cook for me! *cracks whip*
-pH
Posted by Dante (Member # 1106) on :
quote:Cook for me! *cracks whip*
So that's where that went!
Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
First off, I'm glad as heck after reading some of these that I am single by choice right now. I'm not a jerk, but I (as recent evidence has shown) am also not that nice of a guy. I try to be nice, but I guess I come out a little sarcastic/a-holeish. People that know me well don't seem to have a problem with that.
quote: I would also like health insurance.
And perhaps a personal chef. Cook for me! *cracks whip*
Hmmm, I have been known to cook up some really good meals. In fact, I was supposed to go down to Ft. Lauderdale 2 years ago for a friend's birthday. She was going to let me stay at her place as long as I cooked for her. Cheaper than paying for a hotel.
Whip....sounds kinky. Posted by String (Member # 6435) on :
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If we're so hard to find, why the heck are we all single? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because you're so hard to find?
Interesting on a few levels. Do you mean hard to find as in staying at home alot and not going out? Or hard to find as in when you do find them they are shy and sort of hard to get to know?
Also, does anyone else have this problem: They try to hard. Sometimes I think I turn people off in certain situations (not just dating) by seeming fake when really im just trying to be nice. It makes some people feel awkward, and others have told me that I can come off as arogant.
One more thing, how do women feel about kids? I have one on the way, and sadly things didn't work out betwean my ex and I. Even though I'm not really looking right now I was wondering if girls view it as extra baggage and drama like some guys do?
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
Ladder Theory explains this entire phenomenon pretty well.
(Edit: Profanity warning for above link!)
I have my own theory on it, though. The female fascination with the crude, rude, jerks of the universe is the manifestation of a woman's implicit need to be mistreated.
Physically, psychologically, it doesn't matter - clearly women who go after the bad boys really just enjoy being abused. Why be nice to a woman when all it does is make them uncomfortably comfortable, or scared you'll cross the line into obsessiveness?
Abuse her instead. Really, it's the simplest solution.
Here's my advice, nice guys of the universe: be huge jerks, and you will be successful in romance. To start: walk up to the most beautiful woman in the bar and tell her that her shoes look like something a dog ate and crapped out and ate again. Tell her you're buying her a drink just to make her feel better about how stupid she is. Then, when she tells you she wants you to take her home (and she will), do so, but pause to grope her in the alleyway outside the bar while waiting for the taxi. Take sexual advantage of her - always remember to leave her unsatisfied with an excuse like "I'm sorry, I had too much to drink" or "I'm really tired tonight." Refuse to use protection: sell/eat/sacrifice the resulting children. Ignore her phone calls, except when you want sex or need to feel wanted by someone (which will never be the case since, well, you're the MAN). Wash, rinse, repeat until married.
Be unfaithful. Don't worry, she won't care - or at least, won't care enough to leave you. If she gets out of line, well, that's what wine bottles are for. When you're 40 and unemployed while she works 60 hours a week at a job that crushes her soul to support your cocaine and hooker habit, luxuriate in your comfy easy chair (which she probably paid for) receiving sexual favors from the naive 18 year old girl next door, whose dad is probably just like you.
You're living the dream, buddy, being the man, and all the world's men wish they were you.
quote:Originally posted by blacwolve: I think it's because relationships with jerks are exciting. You rarely see good, strong relationships on tv because there's no drama to it. What people want to see are the exciting relationships with lots of pain and anguish and hot sex. I think a lot of girls don't get that what is fun and makes great tv doesn't really make a great relationship.
I was with you until you started talking about buffy, then I recoiled in shock and horror at what I had done.
Yes this is essentially the crux of the thing isn't it? "Nice Guys," if they call themselves that are very often seen as tools. Not only that, but the guy that asks the "nice guy" question is by definition too desperate to be attractive to an innexperienced young woman looking for adventure.
I've been there as the "nice guy," and now I realized that this is a TOTALLY flawed image. The "nice guy," is probably not any more nice or humble, he thinks of himself as smarter and better than "the jock," and whether he is or not, he appears less attractive because he is self conscious and clingy. "The Nice Guy," though I once thought of myself as one, we must all admit is not the guy to be. This doesn't mean "be mean," you can still be nice. But if ALL you are is the "nice guy" then your just lame. Be something and be it well, have a skill and make that work for you... just BE SOMETHING
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:I was not in any way "attracted to" the vast majority of them. Actually, once I get as far as the "friend" stage, I tend to lose the ability to become attracted. My current longest-running female friend started out as a crush on my part, but since her feelings for me were entirely non-romantic and non-sexual, we only hung out as friends. As a result, I quickly lost my crush on her and came to view her simply as a friend. We're still friends today, and I can't imagine even trying to "go out with" or "get with" her in any way. Not for fear of what it would do to the friendship, but merely because I just don't have those kinds of feelings for her.
Now, see, think of one of those girls (one that's at least somewhat attractive). Now imagine that you guys just had a GREAT night together: everything clicked, your conversation was startlingly excellent, you had a great all around time, and it's time to go home. You walk her to her door, she gives you that sultry bedroom look and says "I really want you to come in."
Tell me that you'd say no.
And before you answer, reasons for saying no like "morals" or "saving the friendship" don't count, for obvious reasons.
Posted by jennabean (Member # 8590) on :
Really, what IS it with men denying they only have one ladder?
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
There is no second part to "I'm a Nice Guy."
No, "I'm a Nice Guy, but ... [I don't get laid, nobody likes me, I never get what I want, I only get treated like dirt, etc.]" The "but" shouldn't even be there.
Being a Nice Guy (or, more accurately, a Nice Person) should be a goal in and of itself. When you start crabbing about how you didn't get what you expected for being a NG, then -- by definition -- you were never a NG.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Being a Nice Guy (or, more accurately, a Nice Person) should be a goal in and of itself. When you start crabbing about how you didn't get what you expected for being a NG, then -- by definition -- you were never a NG.
You're making the assumption that all nice guys were jerks to begin with and are only trying to be nice guys in order to get something, when in reality there are several nice guys who have always been nice guys and don't get girls/sex/promotions/tax breaks. And while being a good human being is certainly the goal of many people, I don't think anyone (especially on THIS forum) should be objecting to a periodic whine.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:You're making the assumption that all nice guys were jerks to begin with and are only trying to be nice guys in order to get something, when in reality there are several nice guys who have always been nice guys and don't get girls/sex/promotions/tax breaks.
Nope. I know NGs when I see them. I married one.
Edited to add: In clarification, I can tell the dfference between Nice Guys and guys who only call themselves Nice Guys. Fundamental decency doesn't guarantee you perks, but if you were/are in that game for the perks, then there is something off-kilter about your fundament.
quote:And while being a good human being is certainly the goal of many people, I don't think anyone (especially on THIS forum) should be objecting to a periodic whine.
I object to nothing on this thread or forum. Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
If you think you're one of the "Nice Guys", watch some freakin' John Wayne movies, man up, and start asking the lady you're pining over out. Or just man up. But it's beyond absurd to blame women you've never asked out for not seeing you as something you've never been.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
1) You guys all have a much better handle on this than I did in high school (when I was a Nice Guy).
2) Friends with Benefits always ends badly
3) Nice guys must be defined to truly have this conversation. Some guys say they can't get girls because they're nice, but 'nice' is just a nice way to say 'boring'. Some guys are interesting, but 'nice' is actually code for 'clingy'. I think the main issue is too often 'nice' guys are shy. And girls aren't typically attracted to guys with low self-esteem.
Not that I'm saying that shy == low self-esteem. But I do think they're related.
4) Even when I was a Nice Guy, I didn't really have much trouble with women. In fact, because I always had a steady girlfriend girls practically threw themselves at me (it's a well known fact that girls are more attracted to guys who are in relationships). I think this was because I was an actual nice guy, ie I wasn't boring or shy. I was outgoing, funny, and nice.
5) In college, I made a conscious decision to put away the 'nice guy' persona and experiment with being a jerk. Not all the time, but just when I was out at bars (which was where we met girls at the time). Shockingly, it worked. Girls were attracted to the jerky version of me, moreso than the nice version (at least in college -- in high school, the nice guy did all right). And it wasn't that I was outright mean or anything, I just joked around with everybody. I ripped on the girls, but with a smile. I basically talked to them the same way I talk to my close guy friends. I made it clear from the outset that I was single and planned on staying that way.
Girls seemed to like that. Of course, once we'd been out a few times, the nice guy peeked through and they saw that I wasn't serious about staying single. And once they saw there was no taming to be done, they quickly lost interest.
So my read on the whole thing is that if you're single, and a nice guy, you need to meet a girl who's smart enough, and mature enough, and secure enough to recognize you for who you are. There's nothing wrong with being a nice guy, in fact, it's admirable. But you have to realize that a lot of girls will cross you off the list without consciously trying to -- they're just not attracted to nice guys. You've gotta tell yourself that that's their loss, and move on.
And if you meet a girl who appreciates you for you, do me a favor -- email me and tell me how you did it.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
quote: Also, I think a lot of the time the "quiet, shy, but really good at heart" guy wants the really hot popular girl and doesn't get girls because he's not willing to go out with the girls that are in the same social strata with him.
This is exactly what I think. So many of the nice guys are obsessed with the girls who themselves are jerks. They can't see the cattiness and the snobbery of the popular girls, all they see is her beauty.
There are lots of nice (even attractive--although perhaps unconventionally attractive) girls out there for the nice guys--and plenty of those girls are probably pining for the nice guys.
I get really sick of "nice guys" who complain about there not being someone out there for them when they have supposedly "high" standards based on looks, when they're really ridiculously LOW standards where it counts.
-Katarain
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Is it my imagination, or has this topic popped up more frequently in the last year or so?
Confidence is attractive, regardless of who is projecting it. When "nice guys" whine about how girls like jerky guys, they don't mean ALL girls. They mean girls that fit their standard of "hot chick" (e.g., she must be blonde and short, or red-head and tall, and by no means must she have an ounce of superfluous fat on her...unless it's in her bra). If she's nice and able to hold a marginally intelligent conversation, that's a plus, but it's not absolutely necessary. I know someone who continually attempts to ask out girls he thinks are "cute" or "hot" rather than looking for girls who are intelligent, or nice, or who shares his interests, and he mopes, insisting
I agree with CT; if you think that being a nice guy is the reason you can't get a date, try NOT focusing on getting a date. Be confident, be yourself. Continue to be nice, but don't look for it to get you anywhere. Lead your life as if you're never ever going to date, and you're completely fine with that (and I don't just mean BEHAVE as if this were true, get yourself to believe it). Whether or not this'll get you a date...I don't know. But it will make you a happier person, and less inclined to whine about not having any dates.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
This is just one of those topics that pops up now and then. I don't think it's been doing so any more frequently in the last year than it did before.
I do think that this one if the first such thread that has the distinction of having been started by a woman though.
With thanks to Enigmatic for helping me find it, let me just direct your attention to Randy Milholland's take on the subject. It's pretty much what a number of people have already said, of course, but it's funny.
The next strip continues the dialog, by the way.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
I NEVER got the Jerk Mystique. I never, ever fell for a jerk. As soon as the jerkiness surfaced, I evaporated. Doesn't appeal to me at all, never has.
I'm weird. I never went for an alpha male... unless may be Ron counts. I mean, he was tall and strong and had a sort of fanclub that followed him around in college, but they were all of his year. He's also younger than me. Anyway, he was thought of as cool for his brains as well as his looks, and he wasn't a jock type.
I think, on the whole, I was always attracted to submissive men, which was a whole bunch of frustrating. Because of the clingy worshipfulness (which is fun for a VERY short time, I admit, though I could never bring myself to really abuse such situations).
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
quote:I NEVER got the Jerk Mystique. I never, ever fell for a jerk. As soon as the jerkiness surfaced, I evaporated. Doesn't appeal to me at all, never has.
Word. Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
quote: For whatever reason, many girls like to find a messed up jerk and try to "fix" him, instead of going for a guy that's already stable.
[derail] This remembers me of JK Rowling telling what she thought about girls sending her love letters for Draco Malfoy. [/derail]
Posted by Parsimony (Member # 8140) on :
I still say it has to be projecting an air of self-confidence, perhaps coupled with the ability to actually stand on your own. I am a nerd (I'm on Hatrack aren't I?), I am shy at heart, anti-social, and I often struggle with nearly-crippling bouts of low self-esteem. Despite all this I have never (and I don't think this is bragging, simply telling the truth) had any difficulty getting a girlfriend, no matter what her social strata may be.
If you have low self-esteem and are shy, cover it up and look like a confident, charming, interesting person. If you go out into social situations and look scared and dull, of course nobody will talk to you. People, no matter their sex, are not usually interested in whiny, uninteresting, shy people. Once you get to know someone and feel completely comfortable with each other, it will be more ok for you to show your insecurities and failings. Chances are, by that point, the other person will know about them anyway.
If you are a guy or a girl and you have low self-esteem and an abundancy of shyness that is holding you back socially or romantically, change. Just go out and act more confident. Get up and have those conversations that you always imagine in your head. It probably won't go as badly as you fear. People like to talk, in general. Talking leads to a relationship, whether as friends or romantically. At the risk of sounding like a Nike spokeman, Just do it.
--ApostleRadio
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
quote:Tell me that you'd say no.
Okay. I'd say no. Even leaving aside the fact that I don't believe "friends with benefits" works, and the fact that I don't believe in having sex outside a committed relationship, why would I have sex with someone I'm not sexually attracted to? I'm not going to just hop into bed with any girl who asks, even if she is good looking.
quote:Being a Nice Guy (or, more accurately, a Nice Person) should be a goal in and of itself. When you start crabbing about how you didn't get what you expected for being a NG, then -- by definition -- you were never a NG.
Self-improvement has been my goal for many years. I have worked to get rid of my less savory traits and become a decent and just person in the tradition of, say, Marcus Aurelius. And I do it for my own benefit, and for the benefit of everyone around me. Not to pick up chicks.
Yes, I would suffer incredible depression if I learned that I had to spend the rest of my life without a woman because I'm not the kind of man women look for. But that's outweighed by the damage I feel would be done to . . . well, I don't really know if I believe in souls, so let's just say the damage that would be done to myself . . . if I ever succeeded in getting a woman by acting like something I'm not. Whether that something is a Nice Guy or a Jerk, if I have to use deception to get a woman, then a woman is not worth having.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: why would I have sex with someone I'm not sexually attracted to? I'm not going to just hop into bed with any girl who asks, even if she is good looking.
The stereotype is that *all* (heterosexual) males are sexually attracted to good-looking girls, regardless of anything. Good on ya for not fitting the mold. Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: Being a Nice Guy (or, more accurately, a Nice Person) should be a goal in and of itself. When you start crabbing about how you didn't get what you expected for being a NG, then -- by definition -- you were never a NG.
I don't buy this, either.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Verily the Younger: Whether that something is a Nice Guy or a Jerk, if I have to use deception to get a woman, then a woman is not worth having.
A certain degree of what could be called deception is rather necessary for most relationships, at least early on.
I guess it depends on what you consider deception.
-pH
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon:
quote: Being a Nice Guy (or, more accurately, a Nice Person) should be a goal in and of itself. When you start crabbing about how you didn't get what you expected for being a NG, then -- by definition -- you were never a NG.
I don't buy this, either.
Dang. I guess you won't be buying my book, either.
*grin
------------------------------------------------
Edited to add: When I use the term "Nice Guy/Person," I use it perhaps more rarely than some. I think if almost everyone is a NG/NP, then there isn't much meaning left to the term.
To the extent that the "niceness" is correlated with "anticipated deserved bounty," than I don't think that niceness is the primary good of the choice. To that extent, it's a tool.
That's not such a bad thing. We're tool-users, after all. But I'm not going to go ladling effusive praise for it, either.
YMMV
*shrug
[ December 15, 2005, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I agree with CT completely. To paraphrase what Icarus said once "You can't tell someone you are taking the high road, because the instant you tell someone you are taking the high road, you aren't taking it any more."
It's a matter of personal self-esteem. If you have to say aloud the words "but I'm a nice person" or actually *need* to hear other people tell you that you are a nice person, there's something wrong.
Most of the truly nice people out there, will get upset if you call them "nice" or "good" too often. And you'll never, ever hear them call themself "nice". Because, y'know, they are just living their lives. Who they are is who they are. They may be compassionate and kind others, but that just part of being who they are. It's not about being "nice" or "good".
This can go to the other extreme of low self esteem and not being able to tolerate a compliment because you think you don't deserve it. Either is bad.
But the good people in the middle ground aren't overly concerned about being "nice" one way or the other.
AJ
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
The exact quote from Icarus...
quote: The problem with taking the high road is that generally nobody will know you are taking the high road. You can't jump around and say, "Look at me! I'm taking the high road!" Because, of course, that would no longer be taking the high road. -- Icarus
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Most of the truly nice people out there, will get upset if you call them "nice" or "good" too often. And you'll never, ever hear them call themself "nice". Because, y'know, they are just living their lives. Who they are is who they are. They may be compassionate and kind others, but that just part of being who they are. It's not about being "nice" or "good".
This can go to the other extreme of low self esteem and not being able to tolerate a compliment because you think you don't deserve it. Either is bad.
But the good people in the middle ground aren't overly concerned about being "nice" one way or the other.
Word. You nailed it. (so to speak)
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I don't believe it. People are nice because they've found that it works in their life and helps them be happy.
While being moral strictly for the sake of being moral sounds nice, it's a statement divorced from the fact that human beings are social creatures and that morality and being nice is something that really only means something when compared to other people. You know, Santa doesn't have just a nice list. How could he?
If what you're doing is consistently pissing people off, if you're constantly stepping on toes, then maybe your idea of being nice needs a little modificiation. If you can keep your head while everyone around you is losing theirs, then maybe it's time to re-examine the situation.
Of course, I guess someone *could* be Mr. Steppenwolf, the lonely moral genius forging his own path against the dreary mundanes of the world,a person who ignores the opinions of others around him, but that person is going to be living under a bridge, I suspect, because no one else would want to be around him.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
The above was written with a generic 'you' in mind. I wasn't pointing fingers.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:To the extent that the "niceness" is correlated with "anticipated deserved bounty,"
Does it matter is the anticipated deserved bounty is not aniticipated, but developed on reflection at a later time?
In most of these examples, it's a nice guy commenting on something after the niceness in question. That is, the niceness wasn't done with the motive of anticipated future bounty. Rather, he is noticing the price of niceness afterwards.
It might mean he's not a nice guy now, but does it mean he wasn't a nice guy then?
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Also I personally know a *lot* of females who have ended up in the "friend zone". I've been there myself, numerous times. Again, if you actually concentrate on being friends with the person and worry less about what "zone" you are in, things generally work out in the end.
This same phenomena is why the majority of Eagle Scouts that find it necessary *tell* you they were an Eagle Scout within the first 10 minutes of conversation are also generally pricks.
AJ
I'm not bashing all Eagle Scouts, I know a lot of good ones. However they are generally the ones who don't beat you over the head with it.
I had a memorable run-in with an Eagle Scout Nice Guy who also fell into creepy follow you around puppydog stalker category. All three together are the *worst* combination. This encounter included memorable line from him to me "You should go out with me, because you are the only girl I've ever met who comes close to my intellectual caliber". This after I'd sat him down and told him explicitly that I wasn't interested in dating at that point in time.
AJ
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
By an amusing coincidence, a guy who has been creeping me out for a week with incessant phone calls, emails, and pleas for my time "because I care about you" is pulling the, "I can't believe girls don't go for me; I'm just being nice" thing right now.
I ran into him on the library stairs (I basically told him flat-out last night to leave me alone because he was being creepy), and he said, "Don't say anything; just keep walking" and hurried off.
Now he's on AIM, freaking out over the fact that I "didn't even want to say hi."
quote:Creepy Stalker: can't believe u wouldn't even say hi. after all your lies, gah. oh well i tried! Creepy Stalker: again, i tried being nice. i failed?
-pH
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Ah. Stormie and Dagonee, I distinguish between a "Nice Guy" and just "being nice." Perhaps I am excessively Red-Queeny. Wouldn't be the first time.
But if I call someone a "Nice Guy," it's a mighty high tribute.
Dag, I would agree that the person in question still "had been nice," but I wouldn't call them a "Nice Guy" anymore. I reserve true Nice-Guyosity for those who are idealistic (or rather, realistic) enough to embrace the niceness for its own sake. To the extent that one views that niceness as a tool -- from any temporal perspective -- one cuts tremblingly close to tipping off the cliff of my high esteem. Alas.
And I now wave my wand and declare myself correct in all things.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Dagonee, I think inherent to being "nice" is the fact that you don't tally up "costs" or "prices". I don't think being 'nice' is a one time deal.
It's kind of like forgiveness, but instead of something bad that gets thrown at you again and again if you weren't properly pentitent and haven't been forgiven, it's getting something nice that gets thrown again and again because you weren't properly greatful, and haven't shown enough gratitude.
Either way there are strings. If someone was being truly "nice" at the time there wouldn't be anything there to go back and reflect on. Even if the outcome wasn't the expected outcome, if you know you've done the, nice thing, the right thing, the thing that is you living to the highest ideals in your character, then, barring extremely extreme circumstances, you will be internally at peace with the outcome. Even if it isn't the outcome you wanted.
AJ
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I agree with CT, I think.
It's sort of the way I feel about religion. I don't think one should follow a faith in order to avoid eternal punishment or gain eternal reward.
But that's another story to be told at another time.
-pH
Posted by jennabean (Member # 8590) on :
I don't think what makes a guy nice has too much to do with what he thinks of himself or what he thinks he is entitled to because he's nice. I'd be more concerned with how he treats me and others in relationships. If he says he's a nice guy he damn well better be one, that's all.
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: If you think you're one of the "Nice Guys", watch some freakin' John Wayne movies, man up, and start asking the lady you're pining over out. Or just man up. But it's beyond absurd to blame women you've never asked out for not seeing you as something you've never been.
That's the way to go.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Exactly. The highest ideals of most religions is *not* actually to do good things because you will get rewarded in the end.
It is to *be* good for the love of God and others.
To this time quote my grandfather (a Army chaplain) "If you Be who you ought to Be, you'll Do what you ought to Do."
Being a nice guy is about Being, not Doing.
AJ
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
"Being Nice" is not an entitlement to Anything.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Well, being something of a pragmatist, I don't know that the motivation of an act matters so much as the act itself. Whether someone rescues a bunch of baby ducks because she expects monetary reward, or she does it because she's doing it for the love of Bob, she still has performed a good deed.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Dude, Icky, you gotta get a trademark for that quote. It's gettin' mileage from here clear down to sakeriver!
Posted by jennabean (Member # 8590) on :
quote:Originally posted by BannaOj: "Being Nice" is not an entitlement to Anything.
Nope, it's not. But what the nice guys were originally crabbing about in this thread, is that they are nice and should get more girls. Or something. Nothing wrong with that. They should, in my opinion.
Posted by jennabean (Member # 8590) on :
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: Well, being something of a pragmatist, I don't know that the motivation of an act matters so much as the act itself. Whether someone rescues a bunch of baby ducks because she expects monetary reward, or she does it because she's doing it for the love of Bob, she still has performed a good deed.
I agree. Long live the baby ducks! (and the nice guys.)
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Exactly, pH and BannaOj.
I take it as a given that being a Good Person (i.e., Nice Guy/Person) means that -- more often than not -- you are going to get screwed over in most negotiations, end up doing more work than is your share, face more opportunities for disillusionment and despair than you can shake a stick at, and have your own heart torn asunder with fear and gratitude each time you find another GP.
It's gonna suck. The real Niceness ain't for wussies, and nobody with a vested interest in improving his or her own lot would ever give that path a second glance.
You'll be thinking a lot about Frodo, and you'll be thinking even more about Sam. (And not the Birthday Party part, either.) But I also think it's the only path work the pain of walking.
I love this, attributed to Mother Teresa, even though I no longer profess religious faith:
quote:People are often unreasonable, irrational, and self-centered. Forgive them anyway.
If you are kind, people may accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives. Be kind anyway.
If you are successful, you will win some unfaithful friends and some genuine enemies. Succeed anyway.
If you are honest and sincere people may deceive you. Be honest and sincere anyway.
What you spend years creating, others could destroy overnight. Create anyway.
If you find serenity and happiness, some may be jealous. Be happy anyway.
The good you do today, will often be forgotten. Do good anyway.
Give the best you have, and it will never be enough. Give your best anyway.
In the final analysis, it is between you and God. It was never between you and them anyway.
NB: This link attributes an earlier version to Kent Keith, from a booklet for student leaders.
------------------------------
Edited to add: I don't think there are many Nice Guys in the world, not really. There are a whole lot of people who are trying, though, and that's great. All of them deserve to be treated with respect, dignity, care, and lovingkindness. But not even the Nice Guys deserve to get extra treats.
That's not what it's all about, IMNSHO.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I still think you're assuming that noticing that nice guys don't get girls is the same as thinking that one deserves girls because one is nice.
And noticing that jerks get girls who frequently complain about the jerkiness before moving on to the next jerk. (note this is not a statement about most girls or many girls, just a statement that such girls exist).
Even the quote in the previous post notices that niceness is often not rewarded.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
It all depends on how you define "good" really. The outcome may be good, however the motivation is what tells you about the person's character. And if the person's character isn't truly "nice" or "good" it will show in the end.
I'm all about getting people to do things out of their own self-interest if the thing needs to get done, and it will be better for everyone.
However the pragmatic "good" people (like perhaps Tom Davidson) will do something totally unselfish, and then try to explain it away as enlightened self-interest to turn it into a selfish act for justification. But the whole concept of "Pay it Forward" doesn't include any sort of guarantee that anyone else will ever pay it forward to you.
AJ
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: Nope, it's not. But what the nice guys were originally crabbing about in this thread, is that they are nice and should get more girls. Or something. Nothing wrong with that. They should, in my opinion.
I think, actually, that the basic truth behind this thread is that everyone wants someone to recognize them as a good person. Everyone wants to be loved. Inasmuch as someone sees no fault in themselves, ie they believe they are a nice person, they believe they should find love. So, it is confusing why they haven't. I think the complaints aren't so much, 'I'm a nice guy, why aren't the girls flocking to me', as they are, 'I'm lonely'. ('Is there something wrong with me?')
Almost every single person on this forum has posted something to this effect at one time or another. pH just made a thread that basically expressed her frustration of not being able to find that certain someone to be her friend, or her lover, or whatever, despite the fact that she was a good person. Now, I don't think she ever said this expressly, but I believe that inherent in the idea that you should be loved is that you are worthy of love, that you are a nice person.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Edit: To Dagonee
Yup. There's a difference between analytic commentary and, er, crabbin', though. The implicit or explicit "but [I deserved X for it]" is what raises a red flag for me.
[ December 15, 2005, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
Posted by jennabean (Member # 8590) on :
I am still not going to deny men niceness because they wish they had girlfriends, thus improving their lives, thus gaining something for themselves. Plus, I wouldn't date a Mother Theresa sort, I'd feel too bad about myself. Perhaps I see niceness relative to myself. You are all so amazingly nice!
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:I think, actually, that the basic truth behind this thread is that everyone wants someone to recognize them as a good person. Everyone wants to be loved. Inasmuch as someone sees no fault in themselves, ie they believe they are a nice person, they believe they should find love. So, it is confusing why they haven't. I think the complaints aren't so much, 'I'm a nice guy, why aren't the girls flocking to me', as they are, 'I'm lonely'. ('Is there something wrong with me?')
I totally agree. I think the "because" part -- that is, the distinguishing between what we all deserve and what one person may claim to deserve, extra, "because" of the niceness -- is problematic. For me, at least.
quote: the idea that you should be loved is that you are worthy of love, that you are a nice person.
I'd argue that we all deserve that minimum, and that nobody can "deserve" the extras.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
CT, I have the "Anyway" poem on a poster in my study. Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by jennabean: I am still not going to deny men niceness because they wish they had girlfriends, thus improving their lives, thus gaining something for themselves. Plus, I wouldn't date a Mother Theresa sort, I'd feel too bad about myself. Perhaps I see niceness relative to myself. You are all so amazingly nice!
You are amazingly kind and forgiving of the grumpy and hamfisted.
Bravura!
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Megan: Wonderful. It is an excellent piece, isn't it?
(I now return to passing judgment on all and sundry in my own RL world -- in between writing papers and exams, that is. *shakes fist )
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Oh, I'm not saying someone should necessarily get something 'extra' for being a good person, though if that's what motivates someone to be a good person, hey, that's fine by me.
Posted by jennabean (Member # 8590) on :
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: I think, actually, that the basic truth behind this thread is that everyone wants someone to recognize them as a good person. Everyone wants to be loved. Inasmuch as someone sees no fault in themselves, ie they believe they are a nice person, they believe they should find love. So, it is confusing why they haven't. I think the complaints aren't so much, 'I'm a nice guy, why aren't the girls flocking to me', as they are, 'I'm lonely'. ('Is there something wrong with me?')
Almost every single person on this forum has posted something to this effect at one time or another. pH just made a thread that basically expressed her frustration of not being able to find that certain someone to be her friend, or her lover, or whatever, despite the fact that she was a good person. Now, I don't think she ever said this expressly, but I believe that inherent in the idea that you should be loved is that you are worthy of love, that you are a nice person.
I hope you didn't think I actually read what all those lonely, crabby boys had to say. 'Cause I didn't. Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Er, I'm not following, jennabean. Sorry.
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
It's pretty simple, really. Being devoted largely to yourself and not caring about what other people think comes off as confidence. Confidence is attractive; psychologically, we think that if someone has confidence, they must posess qualities that warrant that confidence. People who are largely devoted to themselves and don't care what other people think, however, are awful to get into relationships with.
Virtually every woman in my life has gone through a certain number of bad relationships before they finally got to the other end of the tunnel. Eventually, we get the real self-confidence and perceptiveness to be able to seperate perceived qualities from genuine ones.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I'd also point out that nice guys with a finely honed sense of snark, can get undeservedly put in the "jerk" category as well.
AJ
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
but that might be the best kind AJ, if they don't have a well honed case of stalker.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
See, in my own case, several of my friends could *not* understand why I was dating Steve because he seemed like "such a jerk". He's not a jerk. He's a smartass. And his brand of smartass highly amuses me. So it works. I can totally understand people *not* liking his brand of humor, but that doesn't actually make him a jerk. And, for all he may talk a load of B.S. as a bluff, if you actually look at his actions, they put him pretty squarely in the Good Guy category. But he doesn't go around advertising it. You probably wouldn't even necessarily know on a casual meeting. But you don't know what he does with his spare time either. (*grin*, quite a bit before we started dating, I was helping him out with some of the volunteer labor he was doing in his "spare time" so I knew... but not a lot of other people did.)
AJ
Posted by aiua (Member # 7825) on :
Just curious, why is it always the guys that need to do the work? If a girl likes a guy, why can't she ask him instead of just waiting around for it to dawn on him?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Even in the traditional guy-ask-out-girl model, there is a great deal of work on the girl's side.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Just curious, why is it always the guys that need to do the work? If a girl likes a guy, why can't she ask him instead of just waiting around for it to dawn on him?
Fast forward to the 21st century, where girls can and do ask guys all sorts of things.
Posted by aiua (Member # 7825) on :
If you say so. I have yet to notice it.
Posted by Chreese Sroup (Member # 8248) on :
Okay, I'll say a little more.
Girls want something, but they cant figure it out. IE: Girls are dumb in this respect. When they do figure out what they want, they still can't tell who has it and who doesn't have it.
It comes to this: Don't treat women like they are so high up. (For guys, They are dumb; for girls You don't want us to worship you, and you know it, You want someone who cares and someone you feel something for.)
Women don't want a little boy, they want a man. Be aggressive. Jerks happen to be aggressive.
Here's the thing, Jerks are little boys. Women can't tell the difference; Unless they are smart, which is a different breed of woman. I honestly don't really know what I want in a woman, so I'm going to get to know as many as I can.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
quote:Don't treat women like they are so high up. (For guys, They are dumb;
o_O
Am I reading this correctly? Are you saying women are dumb, or guys are dumb? Either way, I think it'd be wise to rethink what you said.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:It's sort of the way I feel about religion. I don't think one should follow a faith in order to avoid eternal punishment or gain eternal reward.
This is one of the reasons I stopped going to church -- I realized I didn't really (in that logical part of my mind) believe in most of what was being said. It just didn't make sense. But I kept going, not only because everyone else was, but because I figured to err on the side of caution.
But that's not really what it's about. So I left church, and pursue a Christ-like life, but under my own guidance. I fail (a lot), but I never give up.
----------
The other thing that I don't think anyone's said yet is that it's not only 'nice guys' who think they deserve a significant other; it's everybody.
Everybody thinks they deserve a bf/gf, and if they don't have one they look for a reason why. If you're single, there's no one thing you can look to to fix that. There's no guarantee it even needs to be fixed. Being in a relationship won't make you a better person, anymore than winning the lottery will cure all your problems. They'll all still be there. You're still you, whether you're rich or poor, single or attached.
Everyone feels a sense of entitlement in regards to certain things. I don't agree with the statement that Nice Guys who complain about being single aren't Nice Guys.
I don't think any one thing defines you. You can be a Nice Guy, and still be irritated that the girls you like only seem to go for jerks. I know I've liked several girls who went for jerks, and they weren't vapid, shallow, cheerleader types. The type of person you're attracted to is a direct reflection of your own sense of self-worth.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I got asked out all the time when I was in high school. Nowadays, I get picked up every once in awhile, but I generally do the picking up.
I've done this topic enough, so I'm going to leave all "It's because you are socially awkward and lacking confidence and also when you put a lot of value on things other than personality, you cvan hardly complain when those girls who have these things you value don't regard personality as very important either." stuff aside and say, it's not just confidence being attractive, but also being willing to break the ice. It's like, when you're out somwhere, and you catch someone's eye, it doesn't matter whether you are a nice guy or not. What matters is whether you look away or not. Most "nice" guys look away. You don't pick up girls that way.
Honestly, I don't have a lot of respect for nice. Nice is, to me, kind of weak. It's like in the eye contact example, nice is often a way of saying not liking to break social surface tension. It's nice to pay everyone compliments. Sparing someone's feeling is nice.
I much prefer kindness, which, to me, is what niceness becomes when it grows up. It's not nice to, for example, make people face unpleasant truths, but it's often the kindest thing you can do. In many cases (I'm look at you when I say this, Hatrack), being nice can be pretty unkind.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
Girls and guys are both completely stupid (on average) in completely different ways.
Girls are stupid in that they think guys are observant and attentive enough to recognize their signals, in regards to interest, or wanting to change something, or wanting sex, or not wanting sex, or what have you.
Guys are stupid in that they are, as said above, completely unobservant and inattentive. You generally have to bash us over the head with something for us to recognize it's there.
There's also the classic disparity of girls only wanting to discuss (or "bring to light") issues, whereas guys want to know about problems and fix them.
There are, of course, exceptions.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Most girls don't care if they ask a guy out or get a guy's number or whatever. But if we have to do ALL the work, it makes us feel like we're being clingy or desperate.
Personally, I don't LIKE the guy to do all the work. But I'm also very, very terrified of possessiveness. Like, it's a real problem because I get freaked out by things that really aren't a big deal and shouldn't indicate that he's going to become scary emotionally abusive or something.
-pH
Posted by Chreese Sroup (Member # 8248) on :
quote:Originally posted by Megan:
quote:Don't treat women like they are so high up. (For guys, They are dumb;
o_O
Am I reading this correctly? Are you saying women are dumb, or guys are dumb? Either way, I think it'd be wise to rethink what you said.
I am saying women are dumb. No rethinking needed.
Btw, you aren't a guy, so don't read that part.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Personally, I don't LIKE the guy to do all the work. But I'm also very, very terrified of possessiveness. Like, it's a real problem because I get freaked out by things that really aren't a big deal and shouldn't indicate a problem.
*nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod nod*
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:I am saying women are dumb. No rethinking needed.
Ohhhh boy.
Misogyny Wars, here we come.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
What's an example of something that shouldn't be a big deal but you freak out about?
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
quote:I am saying women are dumb. No rethinking needed.
Heh. Ok, I officially declare your opinion no longer worth considering.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I love to be asked out. I know it's hard - that's the point. It makes me feel like I'm worth the effort, and him not wanting to ask me out makes me feel like I'm NOT worth the effort. Why should I ask someone out who can't be bothered to try for me? It can't be too hard - I'm friendly, visible, and non-scary as long no one gets too fresh without my permission.
Posted by Chreese Sroup (Member # 8248) on :
Well, it helps me be socially active. Before when I used to put women up, and think they were out of reach, it was pointless to date.
Posted by Chreese Sroup (Member # 8248) on :
quote:Originally posted by Megan: Heh. Ok, I officially declare your opinion no longer worth considering.
I wasn't looking for your validation.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:I wasn't looking for your validation.
It's pretty clear you were looking for a fight.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Example, by the way, of my hypersensitivity to possessiveness:
A guy I'd been seeing for over a month asked me not to sleep in a guy friend's bed when I went over to his house.
I didn't SAY anything about it to him, but I got pretty "He's trying to CONTROL me!" over it. Especially since we hadn't really talked about if we were "together" or not, in which case, my default assumption is "not."
Edit to add: If we'd decided we were together before that, I wouldn't have been freaked out at all. But I had a really, really, really horrible experience with a possessive guy, and now I'm scared to death of that sort of thing happening to me again. So if we haven't explicitly stated that we're together, um, I will sometimes exercise my single status to its fullest extent.
-pH
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
What about mine? You sound like a jackass ignorant of any understanding of women to me too.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Conversely, kat, you are saying that the guys aren't worth your effort.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I thought he was just joking, but since he's not it's even funnier.
*pops some popcorn, waits for the blood to start flying*
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:A guy I'd been seeing for over a month asked me not to sleep in a guy friend's bed when I went over to his house.
I didn't SAY anything about it to him, but I got pretty "He's trying to CONTROL me!" over it. Especially since we hadn't really talked about if we were "together" or not, in which case, my default assumption is "not."
P, sounds more like the problem was a lack of communication, rather than hypersensitivity to the possibility of seeming possessive.
Posted by Chreese Sroup (Member # 8248) on :
Nope, trying to explain my side of things. However if you wish to interpret that as a fight, that is your prerogative.
If I wanted to start a fight, I would have said many other things.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Conversely, kat, you are saying that the guys aren't worth your effort.
Too nervous/passive/scared/unready to ask me out, even if I'm friendly and interested? They're not.
Not that they are unworthy people, but that the resultant relationship probably wouldn't be worth the effort it would take to start and continue it.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:*pops some popcorn, waits for the blood to start flying*
<steals El JT's popcorn>
<stomps on it>
<laughs>
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Too nervous/passive/scared to ask me out, even if I'm friendly and interested? They're not.
See my above post about guys being complete idiots about noticing signals like these.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
I'm stepping out of the fray. People like this guy generally aren't going to change their opinion, regardless of the number of intelligent women that confront them.
(By the way, I'm VERY proud of myself at the relative lack of snark I'm including in this post. I've written and deleted a number of things. )
Posted by Chreese Sroup (Member # 8248) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: Too nervous/passive/scared/unready to ask me out, even if I'm friendly and interested? They're not.
Not that they are unworthy people, but that the resultant relationship probably wouldn't be worth the effort it would take to start and continue it.
A relationship consists of two people, why should any one side have to start anything? I think that's dumb.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Again, the same could then be said about you. If you are "[t]oo nervous/passive/scared/unready to ask [them] out, even if [they are] friendly and interested", then why would you be worth their effort.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac:
quote:Too nervous/passive/scared to ask me out, even if I'm friendly and interested? They're not.
See my above post about guys being complete idiots about noticing signals like these.
I like guys who are sensitive enough to get them. If he can't notice that I obviously like him, I suspect he wouldn't notice other things about me either. I'd spend the entire time either lonely or on the bullhorn. No thank you; that doesn't sound like fun at all.
Squicky: I'm worth the effort. Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: P, sounds more like the problem was a lack of communication, rather than hypersensitivity to the possibility of seeming possessive.
I'm sure that was a part of it as well. I mean, rationally, it makes perfect sense to me that someone I'd been seeing for a while wouldn't want me to go sleep in another man's bed. To my logical mind, that doesn't seem excessive at all. Of course, it also makes logical sense to me that (since he had a couple weeks prior made the statement that he wasn't my boyfriend) whether he made the request or not, I didn't really have an obligation to fulfill it.
But to the rest of me, it's like, "DANGER! DANGER, WILL ROBINSON!" in the sort of way that makes me want to run far, far away.
-pH
Posted by Chreese Sroup (Member # 8248) on :
Equal rights eh?
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Incidentally, I've been told (and in some cases be given pretty direct evidence) that some girls find my nuturing side incredibly sexy.
kat: I'm sure the guys feel the same way about themselves too.
You know, you could just admit you have a double standard.
Posted by Chreese Sroup (Member # 8248) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina:
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac:
quote:Too nervous/passive/scared to ask me out, even if I'm friendly and interested? They're not.
See my above post about guys being complete idiots about noticing signals like these.
I like guys who are sensitive enough to get them. If he can't notice that I obviously like him, I suspect he wouldn't notice other things about me either. I'd spend the entire time either lonely or on the bullhorn. No thank you; that doesn't sound like fun at all.
Case in point. "If he can't notice that I like him." If you can't read my mind then I won't date you. It's a stupid and dumb game, yet almost ALL women play them. I call women on it, and they can't see it most of the time, then they profoundly state that they are 'smarter' than I am, when I know why they do the very thing that they can't figure out.
Posted by MattB (Member # 1116) on :
quote: Squicky: I'm worth the effort.
Exactly.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
I swear, Mr.Squicky, if I weren't waayyy too old for you...
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
That is very attractive in a guy. Matt's gentleness concerning my feelings is one of the cutest things about him.
Added: I swear I was writing this before I saw Matt's post. Thank you, darling. Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:I like guys who are sensitive enough to get them. If he can't notice that I obviously like him, I suspect he wouldn't notice other things about me either. I'd spend the entire time either lonely or on the bullhorn. No thank you; that doesn't sound like fun at all.
Some guys are really bad at interpreting signals.
Things that girls think are beyond obvious just barely penetrate the guys' radar.
Posted by Chreese Sroup (Member # 8248) on :
Can you smell my fart? I saved it in a bottle when I farted thinking of you. It smells like love.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:You know, you could just admit you have a double standard.
Oh, absolutely. However, I do not refrain from asking guys because I'm scared. I'm not scared of anything. (Plus, I'm happily dating Matt.) I do it because I like it when they like me enough to ask me out.
quote:If you can't read my mind then I won't date you.
Anyone who doesn't understand that [writing every day/sitting next to you in class constantly/calling often/compliments/eyes batting] means that asking me out would not be met with a no needs to gather some social skills before we would date anyway. I am not a training ground.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Not even snakes?
Posted by Chreese Sroup (Member # 8248) on :
You just want your knight in shining armor, and your Knight couldn't ever be asked out by you. It's a contradiction of terms.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Hey, wanting a knight in shining armor isn't a bad thing.
-pH
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
One thing I will say (as I've said in every one of these threads, whenever they've happened): When I was still single, I did ask guys out. Every single one was completely taken aback that I'd ask them out. I asked a couple of them (the ones who weren't embarassingly horrified) if they'd prefer girls not ask them out, and they said yes, they preferred to do the asking. When that happens a couple of times, you tend to stop doing the asking. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Not snakes. Cockroaches, yes. So, no asking out of cockroaches.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:One thing I will say (as I've said in every one of these threads, whenever they've happened): When I was still single, I did ask guys out. Every single one was completely taken aback that I'd ask them out. I asked a couple of them (the ones who weren't embarassingly horrified) if they'd prefer girls not ask them out, and they said yes, they preferred to do the asking. When that happens a couple of times, you tend to stop doing the asking.
The stench of chauvinism must have taken weeks to get out of your clothes!
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Megan, were they really traditional?
That makes a big difference. If you're very traditional or want someone who is, then you're much more likely to stick to the guy doing the asking and whatnot.
I think the only time a guy's thought I was being too forward was when I called him the day after getting his number. But I don't play that "wait X days" game, so quite honestly, if he was going to be freaked out by that, it wasn't going to work out, anyway.
(Besides. That's part of why I'm such a pimp. )
-pH
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
It's funny, thinking about it, one of the things I like about dating is making the girl I'm dating feel like a princess and I'll go to great lengths to achieve that effect. But on the other hand, I find girls who think that they are princesses who should only be sought after extremely unattractive
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:(Besides. That's part of why I'm such a pimp. )
I only have a hundred tonight . Sorry, daddy.
Posted by Chreese Sroup (Member # 8248) on :
You'd rather he ask you out, it's traditional.
Here's the thing with women's lib movements. They didn't realize what would happen with every peice of the puzzle.
This is not a statement saying I think women should be slaves. This is a statement saying I know they didn't understand what was happening, and we are still dealing with the results of it.
I'm all for people being equal, but there still needs to be work done. Which is why I don't go around trying to read pheremones because I don't have ample antennae, I prefer to talk about things, and just get to know people. Megan: You're out of the game, and you still think you'd know more than someone in it? Times change missy.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: I only have a hundred tonight . Sorry, daddy.
Ho, gimme my money! *gets cane*
-pH
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Only one of them was really "traditional," but I'd had enough conversations with him that I really didn't think it was going to bother him too much. The others...well, I never had that impression before asking them out.
quote:The stench of chauvinism must have taken weeks to get out of your clothes!
Indeed.
Actually, I was determined to be confident by doing the asking out, in a manner as open and confident as I could muster. The rejections sort of took the wind out of my sails in that regard. Fortunately, though, I eventually met Jim, who thought me not only worth asking out, but worth driving 600 miles for a first date. So, it's all good.
Posted by Chreese Sroup (Member # 8248) on :
pH, if you want a shining knight, you should act like women in the dark ages.
That's my main point. Why should men have to put on the burdon of you changing your minds about everything.
I won't anymore. If someone asks me what I think I tell them.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Um, no. Because knights of the dark ages weren't at all like the "knights" we think of today.
Personally, I want a suave gentleman.
-pH
Posted by Chreese Sroup (Member # 8248) on :
Then you better be just like a movie star that deserves one.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Uh. I really don't see how that follows. At all.
-pH
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
quote:Megan: You're out of the game, and you still think you'd know more than someone in it? Times change missy.
Missy? You're, what, 16? 17? You don't get to call me missy, kid.
And, yes, I'm married, so yes, I'm "out of the game," but I had experiences in the past that bore upon the conversation. I doubt things have changed all THAT much in the past seven years, even leaving aside all the conversations I've had with many single friends.
And, it's pretty clear to me from everything you say that many, many people here know much more than you do.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
CS: Haven't you been reading? pH is. Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Thanks, kat.
-pH
Posted by Chreese Sroup (Member # 8248) on :
No mix and matching. If you want one type then you should be the type that you think fits.
If you don't want to be that type, then you better change your mind and change.
In your mind what does a Suave Gentleman deserve?
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Folks, calm down. Chreese is obviously testing the idea that acting like a jerk will make the single Jatraqueras fall for him. It doesn't seem to be working too well so far, but you can't blame him for trying.
Posted by Chreese Sroup (Member # 8248) on :
Megan, you already stated you don't care about my opinion, why continue talking to me?
Apparently, it's so far below you or anyone else that it doesn't need to be discussed.
I look at things quite differently than you. I being a man know what men deal with. And here you are trying to define what I have to deal with.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I don't think I have the same set archetypes for what constitutes a "knight in shining armor" or a "suave gentleman." In fact, I don't think I have them at all. Or at least, not the way you do.
I also don't think a certain type of person only deserves a certain other type of person.
-pH
Posted by Hyperfried (Member # 7892) on :
Well... I'll admit, I just skipped through those 4 pages. But, I did read the first post. And my response, regardless of whether or not someone has already said this...
It's true. Duh. It really DOES seem like the jerks tend to go out with more girls. It's a perverted way of thinking that someone is "cool", because the "cool" kids are only self-proclaimed to be so, and in reality, the majority of them will amount to nothing when they get out of high school.
^_^
In my case, I'm but a wee thirteen year old, but this is the way it seems. The nice guys... A lot of them have girlfriends, too. In some cases, it might just be because the jerks/cool guys have enough courage, bravado, whatever, to ask them out.
Posted by Chreese Sroup (Member # 8248) on :
I was basing those statements in how Kat is reacting.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
It doesn't work as well online, because the jerkness can't be masked by rugged good looks and a devil-may-care grin.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Do you think I'm a traditional, meek, swoony kind of girl?
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: It doesn't work as well online, because the jerkness can't be masked by rugged good looks and a devil-may-care grin.
It can if you're on Myspace.
-pH
Posted by Chreese Sroup (Member # 8248) on :
So you also think that men that beat women should get them ? Or women that beat men should get Nice guys? Since you aren't describing what should and shouldn't be allowed, you are allowing for everything.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Being a knight in shining armor is waaaaay overrated.
Do you have any idea how heavy that stuff is?
And the polishing. Oh the polishing.
Posted by Seatarsprayan (Member # 7634) on :
By the way it wasn't Mother Teresa who wrote the Anyway poem, it was Kent M. Keith. Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
pH, touche
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Originally posted by Chreese Sroup: So you also think that men that beat women should get them ? Or women that beat men should get Nice guys? Since you aren't describing what should and shouldn't be allowed, you are allowing for everything.
Who are you talking to?
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
CS, who are you talking to?
And JT: yeah, and girls don't like it when it's rusty.
-pH
Posted by Chreese Sroup (Member # 8248) on :
Kat, I don't know how you define those things.
However, I do know you. You are someone that wants a guy that will take care of you, someone that will help you do what you are working. This someone also has to need your help.
I'm not really sure on the whole pheremone part of it though.
I was referring to pH in that last post. About "I also don't think a certain type of person only deserves a certain other type of person."
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:It can if you're on Myspace.
Hence why I deleted my account.
First, there was the crazy girl from somewhere in the midwest that wanted to be my friend because I was an asian guy. When I rejected her friend request, she messaged me a two page biography about herself.
Second, there was the gay guy who just didn't seem to understand that straight means not interested in other men. He apparently thought that if he tried hard enough, he could convince me I was gay and should therefore hook up with him over the intarweb.
This is what happens when you're just so. damn. GOOD looking.
</sarcasm>
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
erosomniac, I got a message from a guy offering me $70+ an hour to walk on him.
Uh, I fail to see how what I said has anything to do with beating people. And considering that I've had an abusive relationship in the past, I'm vaguely offended.
All I was saying was, I don't think the "jocks" only deserve the "cheerleaders" or whatever.
-pH
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I got messaged by someone in my town who was on her friends profile. She wanted to chat with me at xxx@yahoo.com (not her real email, you pervs).
However, she gave me no reason why I'd wanna chat with her. No mention of what it was about me that she liked, no bands we had in common, and there was nowhere I could go to see that, because she wasn't a member. I thought that was a little weird.
Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
It's a tough burden, erosomniac. Wanna make out?
--Enigmatic
Posted by Chreese Sroup (Member # 8248) on :
Well, I wasn't referring to you, I was referring to one of my best friends who was married to an abusive person. Take it as you wish.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
That would be so much funnier with your Sakeriver avatar, Enigmatic.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by Seatarsprayan: By the way it wasn't Mother Teresa who wrote the Anyway poem, it was Kent M. Keith.
Luckily, I noted that in my post way back a couple of pages ago, where it was first referenced.
*grin
But I suppose it does bear repeating.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:It's a tough burden, erosomniac. Wanna make out?
yesplzkthxbai
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Chreese Sroup: Well, I wasn't referring to you, I was referring to one of my best friends who was married to an abusive person. Take it as you wish.
I still fail to see how that has anything to do with what I said.
-pH
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
quote:Kat, I don't know how you define those things.
However, I do know you. You are someone that wants a guy that will take care of you, someone that will help you do what you are working. This someone also has to need your help.
Aside from the next to last sentence being gramatically incomprehensible, it's quite obvious you *don't* know kat at all.
*pops popcorn*
AJ
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:erosomniac, I got a message from a guy offering me $70+ an hour to walk on him.
This is where my friend needs to chime in with her story about the guy who offered her $10,000 if he could video tape her crying while having her head shaved.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
1) Kat does want someone who loves and values her and makes her feel loved
2) She HATES being "taken care of" in the way implied, however that is different from making someone feel special and valued.
3) As she said before she's not a "training wheels" practice relationship sort of date. If you are a needy person, you need not apply. She's not your therapist. She's got her life together, you'd better have yours.
4) If you met Kat you *would* be falling at her feet within a matter of minutes. She's that wonderful.
AJ
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
By the way, JT, are we Myspace friends?
If not, we should be. Then we can be omgzbff <33.
-pH
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Can't talk; polishing armor.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Sick dude. This is a family forum.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Apparently armor polishing is one of Squicky's "special" euphemisms.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
You've had a pending request from me for *checks calendar* 13 days.
Squicky -- that's not a euphemism.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
katherina,
I completely understand what you are saying. I feel that way myself. I call it the Brunhilda Theory. If you deserve me, you are hero enough to brave the ring-of-fire.
I am also pretty much an "old maid" at this point.
I am not saying this to contradict you or mock you. I am quite sincere. All I am saying is maybe I have made it too hard?
Of course, you may just be way more "worth it".
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
It's been my experience that women who want you to jump through hoops of fire to win them either never really stop wanting you to jump through hoops or turn clingingly submissive once you do "win" them. I'm not interested in either. I prefer relationships between equals.
---
And alas for me, though I spend my time on the this forum desperately seeking after some of the fabled internet love, I seem only to attract those women who are off-limits. Cruelty, thy name is the Hatrack Singles Scene.
Posted by jennabean (Member # 8590) on :
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: This is where my friend needs to chime in with her story about the guy who offered her $10,000 if he could video tape her crying while having her head shaved.
That was me. And it wasn't on Myspace, although I'd prefer Myspace messages to direct contact with creeps. I love my hair. It is worth at LEAST $10,000. I think it was for some kind of sick head shaving porn site. It is SO hard being pretty. *no sarcasm* Posted by jennabean (Member # 8590) on :
and eww stop making out with people online andrew!
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
*rectifies the JT friend request problem. Is so clueless*
Sooo, Squick....how YOU doin'?
-pH
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
<makes out with everyone>
<realizes he's spent an hour on Hatcrack and gets the hell back to work>
Posted by Chreese Sroup (Member # 8248) on :
Banna, I think you should let Kat speak for herself, I have met her.
I'll let her speak for herself.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
*giggles* *blushes* *runs away*
Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
There is a diverse world of mates out there for everyone. Thinking that all or a majority of women are valueing a specific set of traits above others is a sure sign that you lack perspective. Sure there are girls out there that admire a take charge, damn the consequences kind of guy. So what? There are also lots of women that want a mate that will listen to them, value their thoughts and solicit their advice. Sometimes the "Nice guy" sobriquet protects you from the chaff that your really didn't need anyway.
Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
Then there are the girls who totally just want to watch me and ersomomniac make out. (It's the E names.)
--Enigmatic (regrets that he had to go back to work immediately after posting previously, and missed the fallout)
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
*raises hand*
-pH
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Myspace sounds creepy. I'm glad I never formed an account there.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I'm just wondering where you find people willing to pay to tape you getting your head shaved. Although I'd figure $10,000 was a starting point and negotiate up. But I don't think I could manage to cry, so I guess I'm not qualified.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I think you have to find the people who liked Apt Pupil for all the wrong reasons.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Hello Hyperfried! I see that you joined in April, but we must not post in the same threads, in general, so--belatedly--welcome! I just wanted to say that I was stunned to hear you describe yourself as a thirteen year old, because you don't "sound" like one at all in your writing--you sound much more adult! Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
Squick, I'm not sure where you're Goering with that line of thought.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I could build an awfully nice new garage for 10 grand. And probably remodel my bathroom, too. And it's been 7 years since I shaved my head, so my hair is waist length again. *speculates*
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
::charges AJ $0.15 royalties::
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Do you think they'd get off on a long-haired guy crying while they shaved his head?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
My, what an interesting top-of-page post.
Thank God I didn't write it.
wait--
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote: Although I'd figure $10,000 was a starting point and negotiate up. But I don't think I could manage to cry, so I guess I'm not qualified.
I would shave my, or anyone else's, head for 10K. I would also shave any other part of my, or anyone's body. I would cry, sing, dance, laugh, or babble incoherently while doing so.
I would also build a garage with the money. Although I think mine would cost 20K.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
Now I'm scared to hang out with you, JT. Someone might bribe you to shave my head.
-pH
Posted by Seatarsprayan (Member # 7634) on :
quote:Luckily, I noted that in my post way back a couple of pages ago, where it was first referenced.
Crud, and I specifically checked to see if anyone else had said so, and didn't see it. I failed. [hangs head]
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Well, I'm not saying I wouldn't do it for the $10K. But if they are offering that, I would certainly see if I could get more. Like you said, a really nice garage could go over budget. . .
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by Seatarsprayan:
quote:Luckily, I noted that in my post way back a couple of pages ago, where it was first referenced.
Crud, and I specifically checked to see if anyone else had said so, and didn't see it. I failed. [hangs head]
No, love! No worries.
The original author deserves credit. I'm just in a sleep-deprived state of serious crank, and you got caught in the crossfire.
Here. I'll share my chocolate-covered dried cherries. *smile
Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
ElJay, if you're really having trouble with the crying part while you're having your head shaved, for $1000 I will hide off-camera and punch you in the kidneys.
$500? Okay, $250.
$100 and a case of Dr Pepper?
Fine, fine, just the case of Dr Pepper?
Maybe just for a can. But that's only because you're family.
--Enigmatic
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Hell I'd shave my head for $100 bucks.
Though the thousands would be nice.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Nope. Not for a hundred bucks.
Probably not even for a thousand bucks.
But for $10,000? You bet.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
Take all of the following as "given:"
Jerks are people who don't care what others think of them.
Nice guys care a lot about what other people think of them.
Girls are "other people."
Asking a girl out is the first step to success with women.
The more you ask girls out, the better your chances of success are.
If you don't ask a girl out ever your chances are slim to none.
Asking a girl out changes the way they think of you- sometimes for the good, sometimes for the bad.
Therefore, if Jerks don't care what girls think about them, then they're more likely to ask girls out and have more success.
<is a certified, A-1 jerk> Just ask anybody.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I don't take the first two for a given.
Some jerks just have low self esteem and are self destructive. Some nice guys are perfectly secure with themselves and don't care what anyone thinks of them.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I don't take the first two for a given.
Some jerks just have low self esteem and are self destructive. Some nice guys are perfectly secure with themselves and don't care what anyone thinks of them.
Oh, I don't disagree. However, perhaps I should say that it is more likely that jerks don't care what other people think of them- especially if it may mean dissolving a friendship.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:However, perhaps I should say that it is more likely that jerks don't care what other people think of them- especially if it may mean dissolving a friendship.
I wholeheartedly disagree. I think it's far more likely that the jerks care a LOT about what other people think of them - what they conceive of as a positive image is just different.
Jerks do, however, appear more cavalier about it, which might be what you were getting at.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
Great googly-moogly, y'all have been some busy little beavers while I was at work today. This thread had jumped and rejoined the track so many times I don't even know where we are. I'd like to rejoin the conversation, but it's hard to know what would be relevant. So I'll just sit back and see where else it goes.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
I didn't manage to read all 6 pages, but I've thought about this subject a lot, being one of the 'nice guys'. And what I've come to conclude, without going it into a great deal, is that the good girls are the girls who are attracted to the good guys. :-). That provides an out for me anyways. I tell myself that if a girl isn't attracted to nice guys (as in me), she probably isn't mature enough to be worth my trouble. And I know, that has tons of holes in it and doesn't make a whole bunch of sense, but it makes me feel better. :-)
Posted by WntrMute (Member # 7556) on :
I'm not a nice guy, but I play one on the internet. Does that count?
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
Oh, and I would totally shave my head for 10K. I'd wear a lot of hats--my face is too German to get away with the shaved head look, since I would look like a Nazi skinhead--but it would grow back quickly enough.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:I'm not a nice guy, but I play one on the internet. Does that count?
Wntr, I don't even know you and I like you already.
We need to get a beer.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Man, erosomniac is hitting on EVERYBODY today.
I gotta catch up. *looks about frantically*
-pH
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
I should've thrown a big "I'm Straight" clause in there, but I figured the Myspace comment above sufficiently clarified my intentions.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
If it makes you feel any better, pH. I was trying to work up the courage to pull your hair.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
*kicks Squicky in the shins* Doodie head!
-pH
Posted by HollowEarth (Member # 2586) on :
Now children, there is enough of me for everyone.
Posted by jennabean (Member # 8590) on :
If you even touch MY hair, I will have to charge you about... oh... $10,000.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:Now I'm scared to hang out with you, JT. Someone might bribe you to shave my head.
Don't worry, I'll totally split the money with you.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
And what guarantee do I have?
-pH
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I'd shave my head for $1000. Yup.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Knight's honor.
Posted by jennabean (Member # 8590) on :
See, I would really rather have my hair and a funny story than $10,000 and a video on the internet of me crying and some guy saying "You like that? Yeaaa baby!" while shaving my head.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: Knight's honor.
I suppose that's acceptable, what with all that armor-polishing you do.
Do I at least get to watch you joust?
-pH
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
breyerchic,
kittens noted.
My response? Awwww.
What is wrong with you people? Ignoring perfectly good kittens in favor of your perverted double entendres. Y'all oughta pray Jebus doesn't strike you down where you stand, or make you watch Catwoman or something.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Chreese, I will let Kat speak for herself. I guess she'd already left work and her internet access today when I posted that. I'm sure she'll inform me as to exactly how off the mark I am. (but I think the only one she'd disagree with would be #4)
AJ
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Kat is sooooooooooo sweet. I can't believe it sometimes, but I feel it inside my heart. She is totally awesome and that's a fact. She is fast, smooth, cool, strong, powerful, and sweet.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Why do I think that Stormy has Kat confused with a Corvette?
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
I'm late to the thread, but I'd like to comment I do not and have never found the Bad Guy thing attractive. Not even House, though I love Hugh Laurie elsewhere.
Posted by Ophelia (Member # 653) on :
I think, like AJ said a few pages back, that it's just hard to know whether someone's a "nice guy" or a "jerk." I've met my friends' boyfriends and wondered why the hell they were with such a-holes, then later got to know the guys and realize that most of the time they're really wonderful people (and are very nice to their girlfriends). Conversely, I've had male friends who seem really nice most of the time, but when they are in relationships they treat the girls like crap.
This works the other way around, too--guys with girls who seem really sweet but are complete witches in relationships, or girls who seem really catty at first but are actually really good to and for their boys.
And of course, there are the guys who seem like jerks who really are jerks, and the guys who seem nice who really are, and the awful girls who really are awful, and the sweet girls who really are that sweet all the time.
You just never actually know at first glance.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Aw, Banna is a sweetheart. I don't disagree at all with what she said, except number four. It was very sweet of her to say, though. Thank you.
quote:Sure there are girls out there that admire a take charge, damn the consequences kind of guy. So what? There are also lots of women that want a mate that will listen to them, value their thoughts and solicit their advice.
These are not mutually exclusive. It's possible for someone to be brave, brilliant, and kind, all at the same time.
If you'll forgive me the gushing, Matt is. He's brilliant, can usually tell what I'm feeling and if he can't, then he'll ask until he understands; he thinks I'm smart and funny, and he's brave and snarky and absolutely darling. I feel liked and respected and safe, and it isn't because of some grand guesture or an excess of polishing. It's because I think he likes me and respects me and is idealistic and trustworthy. He parks between the lines - it's so cute. And he's so smart - I respect his opinion.
I'm just saying that for all the criticism that I'm too picky or unreasonable, I'm not. If I hadn't been, I might have been dating someone who was NotMatt and trying to convince myself I was happy despite what my brain and my heart were telling me I was missing.
[ December 16, 2005, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
btw Chreese, I'm curious, do you frequently talk to as many males in the hatrack community online via chat etc, as you do females? The number of single hatrack women you've been in contact with in the last year makes me wonder if you *were* on the prowl. And maybe you're bitter because you did end up in the "friend zone?"
AJ
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
It hasn't been all females that he's been in contact with.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
You never know on the internet. I'm pretty sure this Kat person is a trucker named Earl.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
*relieved* sorry, but my antenna started twitching last night, considering how many women told me that they couldn't understand why Chreese Soup is acting so bitter and out of character, because they thought he *was* one of the Good Guys.
AJ
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I noticed this way back on page two:
quote:Originally posted by JT: So my read on the whole thing is that if you're single, and a nice guy, you need to meet a girl who's smart enough, and mature enough, and secure enough to recognize you for who you are.
I don't think this is limited to nice guys, but I agree. However, it goes both ways. You have to be able to function as an individual before you can function as part of a couple. That means you need to be stable, secure, and comfortable with yourself. If you're those things, chances are you're confident, too, and that shows (which means you don't need to actively advertise it). Your significant other can support you, of course, but he or she shouldn't be your therapist.
I'm sure I'm not saying anything you don't already know -- I'm just being rather long-winded about my agreement.
quote:And if you meet a girl who appreciates you for you, do me a favor -- email me and tell me how you did it.
I used to be a doormat. The girls I dated at that time appreciated it, though obviously not forever -- and a good thing, too! In any case, after I got past the whole "doormat" thing, I wasn't sure what I wanted, so I just went with the flow and dated whoever both piqued my interest and reciprocated it. I never felt like I was putting on a persona around a girl I was dating, and in that period I can't think of any instances where a girl was clearly interested in an idealized version of me. However, my entanglements tended not to last terribly long at that time, because I was in a co-op program and had to move every four months.
I'm pretty sure it's true in the context of my current relationship ( ), but I'm not sure that my "method," insofar as I had one at all, is applicable to other situations.
-------
As to the whole "girls asking guys out" thing, I have to say that I've been asked out and/or propositioned in some way by a number of women, and by and large I think it's great. When I was younger I wasn't very good at handling it if I didn't reciprocate the interest, but in the general case I like being asked out and respond very positively to it. It implies assertiveness and confidence, two traits I find incredibly attractive.
Note: there's a distinction between those two traits and being overbearing or domineering, which are things I find decidedly unattractive.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
quote:He parks between the lines - it's so cute.
Wait . . . is this some metaphor or euphemism or reference that I'm just not getting? Or are you actually saying that it's cute that he parks his car correctly?
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Yeah, I wondered about that too. I also park my car between the lines. Why wouldn't you? And yet I've never claimed to be particularly nice or considerate -- I park between the lines because it lessens the chances of my car getting dinged by some other jerk.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
I park my car between the lines. That's what the lines are there for. I wish someone had told me years ago that was a turn-on; I could have been using that.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Oh, sorry, just to be clear, I meant the royal "you" in my post there. I didn't mean that you didn't park your car between the lines.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Yes, he parks his car correctly. Even if it means getting back in and making adjustments when the parking lot is half empty and there are empty spaces near the door and you're only going to be about ten minutes. It's very cute.
(In case it wasn't clear, I do NOT always park my car between the lines, but I do make an assessment as to whether not doing so will be a burden on anyone.)
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
quote:Oh, sorry, just to be clear, I meant the royal "you" in my post there. I didn't mean that you didn't park your car between the lines.
Oh, I didn't interpret it as anything against my parking. I was simply agreeing with you and saying that I, too, park my car between the lines.
quote:Yes, he parks his car correctly. Even if it means getting back in and making adjustments when the parking lot is half empty and you're only going to be about ten minutes. It's very cute.
I'll be darned. I'd have never have thought of that as a particular selling point.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:I'd have never have thought of that as a particular selling point.
It's kind of representative of an entire personality. He also returns library books on time and is kind to his family and pays cash for everything. It's quite darling.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
I do all those things. Makes me wonder what other little habits I have that I think of as simply "behaving correctly" that some woman might find a turn-on. Stopping and looking at every stop sign? Turning on my turn signal before I change lanes rather than while I change lanes? Returning my own grocery cart instead of leaving it out? Waiting patiently if the person ahead of me in the checkout line is taking a while instead of shouting, "HEY, MOVE IT ALONG"?
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Verily, first you have to get someone completely smitten with you. *Then* they will find everything that you do completely and utterly cute.
*knowing nod*
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*laugh* Yes, actually that's cute, especially when you combine it with snarky. The snark provides the Funny while the kindness means you can still be trusted.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
quote:Verily, first you have to get someone completely smitten with you. *Then* they will find everything that you do completely and utterly cute.
*slaps forehead* What bloody good does that do? If I could do that, then I wouldn't even be worrying about it!
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
The trick is to not worry about it.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I think it's really cute when I go on a date with someone who has business cards.
I usually keep a business card or two. Or three.
I am weird.
-pH
Posted by jennabean (Member # 8590) on :
quote:Originally posted by Verily the Younger:
quote:Yes, he parks his car correctly. Even if it means getting back in and making adjustments when the parking lot is half empty and you're only going to be about ten minutes. It's very cute.
I'll be darned. I'd have never have thought of that as a particular selling point.
I think pretty much everything about a guy driving is cute. Especially when they are really serious or get mad and swear at people.
I am also weird.
Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
Kat, I see a distinction between a person that makes snap decisions without consulting those close to them and one that solicits advice, weighs the options and then acts decisevely. The former falls under my definition of a jerk and the latter, more likely, would fit my defintion of a nice guy. Perhaps I should have included the phrase, "...regardless of who may be hurt or what moral boundaries might be crossed"
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
btw punwit... nice to see you!
Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
Thanks AJ, I've been in lurker mode for months. I'm not sure I can pinpoint the reason for my silence, although I was swamped with work through the fall. How about we call it non-specific posting malaise?
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
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. Sorry, daddy.
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I just wanted to say that I was stunned to hear you describe yourself as a thirteen year old, because you don't "sound" like one at all in your writing--you sound much more adult!