I was so careful. I made sure the kids had been in bed and quiet for about an hour. I tiptoed in and checked on them. They were breathing deeply, evenly. I thought it was safe.
I snuck outside, bundled up against the cold and wet. I started unloading the presents out of the van, putting them in the laundry room so the whole house wouldn't get cold while I was going in and out.
My third trip in, I heard the laundry room door close on my way in, and a little voice. I opened the laundry room door, and there, in her brand new fuzzy pink pajamas, is my seven year old daughter, Jennifer.
I knew she'd seen the presents, so confronted the truth on the spot. If I hadn't, she'd just say something in the morning about it to Daniel.
I'm exhausted, both from it being so late and from the emotional conversation I had to have with my daughter.
I explained to her how there really was a very nice man who gave presents to children, and that when he died, parents continued the tradition out of love.
I did tell her, though, that even though parents do the majority of Santa's work, we don't really know who fills the stockings. Maybe it really *is* Santa. Or some elves.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Oh, my.
I don't remember ever not knowing that Santa was my parents... (((hugs for Jenny))) (((hugs for Boon))) (((hugs for Boo, too, 'cause he's so cute))) Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
Thanks.
I'm still not sure she didn't already know...but she seemed so dissappointed, and wanted to know why I lied to her. Posted by CaySedai (Member # 6459) on :
It's always tough. I ended up having "that talk" with my daughters last year. They kept asking, and I'm pretty sure Amanda knew, but Cayla kept asking. Now, she will tell any adult that she knows the truth if they say anything about Santa. I've got to break her of that.
I would have preferred to let Amanda in on it before Cayla, and have her be a Santa's helper. It just didn't work out that way. Would your daughter be able/willing to do that? Maybe by helping out she can feel a little of the excitement that you do.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Wow. That sounds... hard. I have no idea what I believed or what or how I figured things out - my memories just don't go there. Good luck.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
You can't keep up the Santa game forever, sooner or later other kids convince them what's up.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:I did tell her, though, that even though parents do the majority of Santa's work, we don't really know who fills the stockings. Maybe it really *is* Santa. Or some elves.
quote:I'm still not sure she didn't already know...but she seemed so dissappointed, and wanted to know why I lied to her.
Is lying further really the answer to your child being upset over you lying in the first place?
I was also seven when I figured out my mom was Santa (I found the wrapping paper in her closet). I had it set in my mind thereafter that she was Santa, the Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, etc., and I resolved to confront her about it. She came clean about all of it, which was good, because if she had tried to lie to me about any of it I would've been pissed.
I think you can find a creative, honest way to explain why you would "lie" about the existence of Santa in the first place, but I think you should come all the way clean.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Santa used to leave us long letters in place of the cookies we left him.
Then I started noticing that the letters were in handwriting very similar to my father's.
-pH
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH: Then I started noticing that the letters were in handwriting very similar to my father's.
I love the image. Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
They were such cute letters, too! About how we were such good children that year, and Santa was very proud of us. I wonder if my parents saved them.
-pH
Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
Santa has become a man of technology. The gifts he leaves here all have computer generated labels, and any letters he writes to us are also printed.
Anyway, it was late, she was sleepy, and seemed more upset that there wasn't really a Santa Claus than anything. I'll talk to her more about it tomorrow, but for now I think it's enough that she knows that I put out the presents, and she can't tell her brothers.
The thing is, she's terrible at keeping secrets. In some ways, that's a great thing. But in this, it means that I'll have to tell Daniel the truth sooner rather than later...I'd rather they hear it from me than each other...or worse, their peers, who may put a *really* bad spin on it.
:shudder: You should hear how they talk to each other!
On a more positive note, I'm done. Everything is out, and I'm (finally) going to bed. I'd have been done 2 1/2 hours ago, but, well...
Merry Christmas, everyone!
Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
My parents never really tried to make me believe that there was an actual Santa Claus. They'd always have a present or two from him under the tree, but they always made it clear that it was really from them. I remember being in about fourth grade when rumors started going around among my friends that maybe there wasn't really a Santa Claus, but no one could be sure. When I realized that they were actually having a serious conversation about this, I thought my friends were some serious dumb-asses.
On a related note, my grandparents once told me how my dad found out the awful truth. When he was about 8 years old they put him to bed and started putting together a train set for him under the tree. My grandpa hadn't got very far when he heard my dad coming downstairs, so he covered up his work and met my dad at the staircase.
"Has Santa come yet?" my dad asked.
"No, not yet. Go to bed and he'll be here before you wake up."
So my dad climbed the stairs again and as soon as he was gone my grandpa uncovered the train set and started working again. Before long my dad was descending the stairs, so once again my grandpa covered up his work and met him at the staircase.
"Has Santa come yet?"
"No he hasn't. He's not going to come until you go to sleep, so get back upstairs and don't come down until morning."
My dad went back to his room and my grandpa uncovered the train set and went back to work. 20 minutes later he heard footsteps coming down the stairs again. He threw down his tools, stomped over to the staircase and met my dad as he came downstairs.
"Has Santa come yet?"
"Look, there's no such thing as Santa. I'm Santa. I'm making your presents right now, and if you come down again tonight they're going in the garbage, so get to bed!"
And that was the end of that legend in my grandparents' household.
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
*sob* 'Twas the night before Christmas and all through the house, not a creature was stirriign except for the grouse. The soncame down and that is where this poem ends, so Merry Chrsihanukahmas to all, and to all an amends.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
I never did understand the point of telling kids that there really was a Santa Claus, but then again I'm Jewish, so I miss the point of a lot of it.
MY Santa talk came from my mom, who told me that the Christian children's parents lie to them and tell them that this made up character is real and brings them presents. But even though it is all a ridiculous lie, I shouldn't tell them the truth, because it would hurt their feelings to find out that their parents are liars.
"But why do they do that, Mommy?"
"I have no idea. But they do. So don't tell."
I always looked at my Christian friends with a bit of pity after that, because they had parents who lied to them.
I told my kid the same thing, when he was little.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I did tell her, though, that even though parents do the majority of Santa's work, we don't really know who fills the stockings. Maybe it really *is* Santa. Or some elves.
I don't quite understand why you perpetuated a DIFFERENT lie once the truth was out there.
I'm trying to raise Sophie without Santa, but the culture conspires against me. He's at every mall, shows up at her day care, etc. She's already aware that a fat, bearded man in a red suit is "Sanna," and that she's supposed to like him for some reason. *grumble*
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
I'm pretty sure I worked it out on my own that there really couldn't be any such thing as Santa Claus. My parents say it was when I was five, before I started kindergarten. I remember telling my grandfather, "I know a secret, Grandpa. There really isn't a Santa Claus! It's Mom and Dad!" Whereupon my parents told me about the spirit of Christmas and gift-giving and how I couldn't tell any other kids.
Posted by james01 (Member # 8863) on :
My parents tried to disguise the writing on the letters they left, but after awhile we figured out that it was really my mom. My sister and I would always put cookies out; I'm sure my parents loved eating them.
Oh yea and when I was probably 8 or 9, my cousins, my sister, and I were all at my grandparents house for Christmas. My grandfather disappeared and came back in dressed as Santa. But I knew it was him so I kept asking my parents where grandpa was and they made silly excuses.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I believe there is a line between pretending and lying. I don't lie to my children. But I pretend. If confronted, point blank, I will not say that there is a Santa Claus or a tooth fairy or an Easter Bunny. I don't go to any great lengths to disguise my handwriting or use different wrapping paper. But there are gifts under the tree labeled from Santa.
But then, there are gifts under the tree labeled as being from Fraemie and Chrissy (our dogs) and from Mango and Banana, even though they never went shopping for them. For that matter, there are gifts labeled as being from Grandma and Grandpa, and while they sent us the money, we actually bought the gifts. *shrug*
Tante, I find your way of dealing with it objectionable, in that the people you are talking about don't view *themselves* in the (rather uncharitable) manner in which you have described them. Rather than seek to get to the bottom of it, you have told an impressionable child a version of events that ridicules another group. I don't think that promotes any kind of understanding between people.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
I believe that the only time it is appropriate to lie to your children is when it will protect them from something they are genuinely not equipped to handle.
The fact that Christmas presents really come from Mommy and Daddy does not qualify.
quote:I believe there is a line between pretending and lying.
There is; the difference is that when it's pretend, the child knows it's not real.
When I was a child, I quite enjoyed the Ghostbusters and the Ninja Turtles and the Legend of Zelda even though I knew they weren't real. Sometimes I pretended they were real, but I never, not for one moment, actually believed it.
Santa Claus I believed in, because my parents told me he was real. That's why it came as such a crushing blow when I figured out that it wasn't true. I would have enjoyed the Santa character every bit as much knowing he wasn't real, just as I enjoyed the Peter Venkman character or the Michaelangelo character or the Link character. I did not feel then, and do not feel now, that my parents were justified in lying to me in this situation. To them it may have been pretend, but since I didn't know that, and they deliberately deceived me on that point, then from my perspective it was not pretend; it was a lie.
Don't get me wrong; my parents were and are wonderful people. I don't have a dysfunctional family, and I'm not one of those types who resents their parents and blames them for every bad thing that happens. I think they mostly did right in raising me, and if I feel they were wrong in this case, well, then I chalk it up to experience and learn from the mistake. Even if I am the only one who considers it a mistake.
That's why my children (if the Universe ever decides to allow me to procreate) will share in the pretend of the Santa Claus character. I will tell them about Saint Nicholas from the very beginning, and the fact that he lived hundreds of years ago, and our modern Santa Claus character was made in his honor as a celebration of the spirit of giving. I absolutely agree with Tante's sentiments. It may be an "uncharitable" thing to say to a young child, but the philosophy behind it is sound. I don't plan to be quite that harsh with my children ("All your friends' parents are liars, but don't tell them that."), but they will be made to understand from the beginning that Santa Claus is a made-up character, just like the cartoons they watch and the video games they play.
Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
This has always been my point of view on it: For a small child, Christmas centers around two people who they're never going to see in this lifetime. One is Santa Claus, and the other is Jesus. If they grow up as small children believing in both, then one day they find out that you lied to them about one of these characters, your kid won't have to be a genius to take the next logical step.
I personally haven't decided if I'm going to try to instill a faith in Jesus when my children are born or if I'm going to wait until they're old enough to make up their own minds. But I know a lot of parents do teach their children about Jesus from birth, and I've never been able to fathom how they think they can throw him in the mix with bunnies and elves and fairies and magic fat men and expect them to be able to separate them when they get older.
[ December 25, 2005, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: Speed ]
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
Interesting point. I don't have that experience, myself, having grown up in a secular household. But for a family that's trying to raise their children to be good Christians, it does seem incongruous, now that you mention it, to have to explain that no, you weren't being truthful about the whole Santa business, but the other person they've never met that's important to this holiday, he is real, honest! I'd never thought of that.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
My parents used to write us letters from Santa, too. The year my dad was in Korea, the letter was in my mom's handwriting(but I didn't recognize it). Santa told me that my dad had been a very good boy too and was very proud of me.
I was so excited when we moved to Alaska- I thought I'd finally be able to meet the REAL Santa. I knew those guys in the stores weren't him. But alas- Santa doesn't make appearences in Alaska either.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Emma's too young to really get who gifts are from-- she's just able to grasp that you pull paper off packages and get toys and such. (Santa was on a budget this year, especially after she got a toddler bed earlier this month. Mama and Abba gave her a puzzle; Santa brought her a big package of Take and Toss Straw Sipper cups-- as opposed to the sippy cups she usually uses, which she's beginning to outgrow and not want to use some of the time, since she's not quite ready to use an open cup without dumping it all over yet.) But it's all the same to her this year who gave what as long as she gets to play with it right away. Next year, though, I think she'll be old enough to understand the "joke", which is what it always was in my family-- some presents would come from Mom or Dad, some from Santa, and at my dad's house, some from "Sandy Claws", but everyone always got that there wasn't really a big fat guy who came down chimneys and gave presents. It was just a fun tradition. I can remember Christmases back to when I was three, and I never remember "really believing". I'm hoping we'll be able to go the same route at our house, although it will be harder since she doesn't have sisters 10 and 13 years older to help impress the concept.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I think I used a sippy cup until I was 5, at least at home. Heck, that might prevent spills now.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I was like.... 16 when I finally decided that he didnt really exist...
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
We go with the "don't ask-don't tell" policy here. My daughter is well aware there is no Santa, but clearly does not want us to tell her so. My son will believe until he is sixty, I am sure.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
I have to say, I am annoyed with the judgmental nature of some of the posts in this thread.
Telling the whole truth to children is not always the right thing to do, sorry.
I learned this quite clearly last year when I was sick. It was always a question for my husband how much to tell them.
This summer, months after I was recovered, I asked my daughter(11) if she had known how sick I was. She said she did(much like she knows Santa is her dad), because she heard people talking. I then asked her if she would have wanted someone to tell her.
She did not.
It was OK for her to figure it out herself, but she did not want it to be "real" that I could die.
Some kids can "handle the truth," and others cannot. It is not so easy as to decide to be totally honest with your children about all things. Sometimes, they are not developmentally ready for it.
I am quite sure that Boon is a good parent, and that the loss of the Santa moment is as tough for her as it is for her child.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I was not crushed or traumatized when I realized that there wasn't a Santa Claus. I think it was an important part of Christmas for my parents. I don't think telling children that there is a Santa Claus is as damaging as some here have implied.
-pH
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I agree wholeheartedly with Elizabeth.
See Liz? Something you're not wrong about!
Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
I do wish my family told me right away there was no Santa. I was traumatized. I found my letters to Santa and my baby teeth in my mom's dresser drawer. I sobbed. Of course that led to questions regarding the Easter bunny, etc...My mother could've avoided this whole thing by just telling the truth.
I will not be telling my kids about Santa. I honestly wish we could avoid Christmas altogether. While it is a holiday I enjoyed as a child and still as an adult, I am not really interested in it for its religious significance. I haven't bought a tree for about five years. It is still expected of me to celebrate it for my parents' sake. Which I am fine with. It makes them happy and it doesn't hurt me.
[ December 25, 2005, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: Valentine014 ]
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I was kind of perplexed by one story I heard this weekend. (this is 2nd or 3rd hand, so maybe it just doesn't make sense because people screwed it up.)
According to "sources" a kid found mom was the one who was putting out the presents, not Santa Claus. Mom told the child that really, it's not Santa Claus, but Jesus who puts out the presents, and that mom was just helping.
If this is really true, I'm sort of wondering along the lines of what Speed said -- once the kids figure out that part of it is a lie, what do you do with the other parts?
As for perpetuating a myth about Santa Claus... In my case, I believed in Santa until I didn't. I have no clear recollection of some great awakening to the fact that it was mom & dad putting stuff under the tree. But either way, I don't believe for a minute that somehow the Santa myth did me any harm. Nor was I ever confused about the differences between Jesus and Santa, that I can recall.
Afterall, Jesus is a message children who are raised Christian get all year long.
It's not that difficult to separate a figure one knows from consistent repitition of stories about birth, ministry, death and resurrection from a guy who really likes celebrating Jesus' birth to the point of becoming impossibly generous to children.
Now, if kids are raised in a secular tradition and their parents want to celebrate a "secular" version of Christmas, it's probably a little more difficult to explain what motivates Santa, but kids probably aren't going care much (at the younger ages) anyway.
And for families that don't celebrate Christmas at all, for whatever reason, I expect the entire season is just one giant pain because there's no escaping it. I can understand a bit the idea of wanting to cast it in a negative light so your children don't feel like they've been left out. I'd probably prefer to hear something different than "Oh, well, that's just Christians lying to their children" (especially since not every Christian household does anything related to Santa Claus...), but I can certainly understand wanting to have something to say to a child who may be hurt and teased about NOT celebrating Christmas.
I think we all end up having to face the lies and half-truths we tell kids. Partly, how can one avoid not lying at least by omission. You sort of have to cut some explanations short of full disclosure, neh? And you can't always give a child even a truthful answer in some situations because the truth might hurt them if they don't understand the full context.
I don't have a full-blown theory on what to do when in every situation, but I can't imagine giving a FULL complete answer to every question that a child asked.
Perhaps a better tactic is to stick as close to the truth as you can, and try not to set up situations that are even worse than the lie/partial truth in the long run.
Given that nobody's perfect, I suspect parents probably deal with regrets on this score on a fairly frequent basis.
Posted by MandyM (Member # 8375) on :
I do see Speed's point of view on this issue but my thoughts are much more in line with Elizabeth and pH.
This Christmas my daughter, who is almost 3, really understands the gift giving and celebrating involved with Jesus's birthday. She got Santa-saturated at school and everywhere else we went, people asked what Santa was bringing her. We told her he was bringing a dollhouse, which she repeated to everyone. She got pretty excited about that dollhouse too. Last night we drew pictures of a dollhouse and we set out cookies for Santa. This morning I woke her up and told her Santa had come while she was asleep and she said, "Ohhhh, cool!" She was thrilled and hubby and I had a ball.
We will continue Santa as long as she believes and when she doesn't anymore, she will still get "Santa" presents on Christmas morning. Not because we are liars who should be pitied, but because it is fun. We will tell her when she is old enough that parents do Santa because it is a fun tradition and by then she will be old enough that we will research the origins together. She hopefully will get so caught up in learning about why we celebrate in that way, that she won't be angry that we lied. I just don't think it will be as traumatic as some of you made out to be here.
My parents spilled the beans when confronted but they continued Santa until we were adults. My mother kept asking every year if she could quit doing Santa but my brother and I told her no, not until we had children of our own to be Santa for. My daughter was due on Christmas Eve so my mom was so excited that she would get out of doing Santa that year. I told her that I still got Santa unless the baby was actually born by then and Julia ended up waiting 9 more days! My mother still tells everyone that I held that baby in to get my Santa gift. We just think it is fun.
Also I should point out that my daughter is also learning about Jesus. We have a simplified picture book of the Christmas story and she can tell you the whole thing about how there were too many people and that Mary had to sleep in the stable and the baby Jesus was born. She is learning to pray and is asking lots of questions about Jesus. I hope that she will be savvy enough to understand the difference is a make believe Santa and what I believe to be the real Savior. I think that my own faith will be strong enough to set an example for her. After all, we don't go to church every week all year to worship Santa.
It is both a secular and a religious holiday in society and that is how we celebrate it in our home. In fact, I have asked my mother-in-law (who is a non-practicing Jew) for the menorah she put up for my husband so we can teach Julia the Jewish traditions as well, not as a religious practice but as a cultural celebration that is part of her heritage.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
I don't remember ever believing in Santa. Its a tradition my mom loves and this year is actually the first year that we got gifts that weren't marked "from Santa." And this is with me at 20 and two brothers at ages 18 and 14.
I watched all the holiday movies but I remember always knowing that it was just a story. Like Paul Bunyan or something.
When we were little my family was very religious so that aspect was always emphasized and Santa was just a game. We stopped Christmas mass when I started junior high and we haven't unpacked either nativity scenes since we moved into our new house two years ago. My mom blames the lack of space since we have a smaller tree now but I know its because we've finally taken the last step into becoming secular. Baby Jesus and Santa are now just stories that encourage the family-focused nature the season has for us now.
Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
Update: Hubby and I had "the talk" with Dan and Jen this evening. We came completely clean, including the fact that my parents, his parents, and my sister help us pay for the Santa presents.
They already knew, but were afraid if they told us they knew they wouldn't get Santa presents anymore. I remember feeling that way when I was about their age.
They agreed it's a good tradition, and a lot of fun, so will not tell their baby brother as he grows.
They didn't ask about any other characters, so we won't tell them they aren't real unless they ask.
"A very long time ago, there was a very nice man who loved Jesus so much he decided to celebrate his birth by giving presents to the children he knew. But he did it in secret, so they wouldn't know it was him and treat him different or expect anything from him.
Parents heard about it, and started giving gifts to their children on Christmas as well. Even when the nice man died, parents still continued the tradition.
Do you understand what I'm telling you?"
"Yeah. We knew. But why do you still wrap presents and tell us they're from Santa?"
"Because we love you, and it's a fun tradition. We're going to keep doing it too, so don't worry. Just keep pretending you really believe, so your brother won't guess."
"Oh! Can we help you shop for him next year?!"
Yeah. Brats.
Last night I was mostly caught off guard, and trying to do some "seat of the pants" parenting. I just was really not expecting this until next year, when I planned to have this talk anyway with them, and then let each of them come with me separately to help pick out something for each of their siblings.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Makes me almost want to send them something in the mail next year addressed from "Santa, The North Pole". Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
The rotten monkeys would just notice the postmark or something. Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
You know what else? They LOVE their raincoats. It's been icky rainy for a couple of days here, and they've been getting some good use out of them.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
quote:Telling the whole truth to children is not always the right thing to do, sorry.
I learned this quite clearly last year when I was sick [. . . .]
See also, my comment above:
quote:I believe that the only time it is appropriate to lie to your children is when it will protect them from something they are genuinely not equipped to handle.
The fact that Christmas presents really come from Mommy and Daddy does not qualify.
You see, I take a rationalist approach to life. I understand that there are things children are not ready for. I understand that sometimes you have to lie to children for their own protection. But some people seem to be implying that the fact that their Christmas presents came from their parents is one of those situations. And I don't accept that.
I have never said that I will absolutely and unequivocally never lie to my children. I will try to avoid having to be in a position where lying to them is the best thing, but if such a situation does arise, I will do what I feel is--well, not "right", but at least "less wrong". I will lie to them only if I truly feel it is for their own good, and that it really would be better than telling them the truth. And even then, I will, whenever possible, choose a lie of omission over an outright spoken falsehood.
What I do feel, absolutely and unequivocally, is that it is not acceptable to lie to a child--or to anyone else--simply for your own amusement. Children are perfectly capable of accepting fantasy as fantasy and treating a game as a game. In fact, they are better at it than adults are. Tell them, from day one, that Santa Claus is simply a fantasy and a game that you play, and they will happily accept that and they will play along. They will play along no less eagerly than they would if they believed it was real. And you spare them the moment of having them discover that you've been lying to them all their lives.
Clearly some children handle that news better than others. Some people have actually used the word "traumatized". Some were indifferent. I was neither; angered and embittered, yes, but not traumatized. Still, my parents could have spared themselves that resentment if they had been honest with me to begin with and told me it was a game. I would have accepted it and pretended Santa was real, no less than I accepted the fiction of the Ninja Turtles and still pretended they were real.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Well, as a big fat liar, Verily, I still very much disagree, but I see, from your perspective, that there is no other way you are able to see it.
When my husband and I stay up all night to wrap presents, I always go to bed before he does, and I am sure we will be caught in the act, as there is no possible way he could be done before the kids awaken,
Every Christmas, I wake up on Christmas morning, and there are the gifts, wrapped in a different paper for each child, arranged anally, and with a ccorny note from Santa propped up in front of each pile.
Every Christmas morning, though I have assisted in the wrapping of the gifts, I re-believe in Santa, and get a thrill to the tips of my toes.
My kids do, too, and we will continue to pretend there is a Santa long after they declare there isn't one.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
In a way, learning/figuring out the truth about Santa has become a rite of passage in our culture. For many kids, it apparently does mark an end to one era and the growth into another phase of their lives.
As I said, however, I have no clear recollection of when this happened for me. Maybe it never did, and really still believe in Santa anyway.
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Boon: The rotten monkeys would just notice the postmark or something.
Road trip to Santa Claus, Indiana? Yes, it's a real place and they were decorated for Christmas... in July!
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
Huh. I never really believed in Santa Claus. My parents always were adamant that he was real and wouldn't admit that he wasn't even when I pressed them about it, right up until when I left the house. It didn't bother me. To me it became a game of finding proof that he wasn't real. I never was crushed or hurt that my parents were lying to me, more I just wanted to finally prove that he didn't exist and get them to admit that I'd been right all along. I was a little annoyed when I felt I had proof (I saw my mom being the easter bunny) and they still wouldn't admit it. They confessed to being the easter bunny, but not santa. *glares*
We're a very not religious household who just celebrates christmas for fun, so the whole jesus thing never came into it. Except for them to explain about religion and christianity *shrug*
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:You know what else? They LOVE their raincoats. It's been icky rainy for a couple of days here, and they've been getting some good use out of them.
Yay! And there are ways around the postmark thing-- Isn't there a "North Pole" in AZ or NV?
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
There is a North Pole in Wilmington, New York. You can get postcards there and have them postmarked. My grandmother did Santa's hair for years. He was an old man whose name really was Santa Claus, and he had a long bead and long hair, and he was chubby and jolly.
In fact, this might be why I tend to believe in Santa still.
He(Santa Claus the man, who played Santa Claus at The North pole during my childhood), died poor and alone in the Midwest some time in the 80's, i think.
I am trying to find his real name. I forget it! But I remember he used to be in my grandmother's beauty shop, and he would walk around Lake Placid. If kids came up to him yelling "Santa!" he would always play along. He was a dear, sweet man.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
quote:Well, as a big fat liar, Verily, I still very much disagree, but I see, from your perspective, that there is no other way you are able to see it.
It's easy to dismiss my opinion if you arbitrarily declare that I'm just a narrow-minded fundamentalist who has not the capacity to appreciate another person's point of view. But considering that we are, theoretically, having a discussion here in which there is more than one side to the issue, and I am doing nothing but arguing my side, I'd like to ask what makes me any less capable of seeing another point of view than anyone else.
I am a rationalist, which means, pretty much by definition, that I can be persuaded to change my mind by rational argument. Just because I hold a point of view different from yours does not mean I am a fundamentalist, and I'll thank you not to make that implication again.
quote:Every Christmas morning, though I have assisted in the wrapping of the gifts, I re-believe in Santa, and get a thrill to the tips of my toes.
My kids do, too, and we will continue to pretend there is a Santa long after they declare there isn't one.
Shall I point out that this reinforces my own point rather than contradicts it? That this is evidence for my argument that children will happily play along with the Santa game even if they are aware that it is nothing more than a game? Or would that, also, invite accusations of fundamentalism?
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
A little late, but Ic, I agree with what you said 100%. That's how we do it here too. We don't make a big deal out of Santa, but I do lable some of the presents from him and Mrs. Claus and Rudolf and the Elves. I use the same tags as all the other presents as well as the same paper and do it all in my own writing.
By the same token, when my son was still losing teeth, I once wrote him a letter in my handwriting from the Toothfairy, explaining why it had taken a week to collect the tooth he'd lost and leave the little gift of thanks for it. It explained that I (the ToothFairy) had been on vacation in Bermuda and was catching up from a very busy workload, thanked him for his patience and hoped he liked the Hotwheels (I don't leave money, largely because he liked little gifts better). I don't think he ever really believed there was a toothfairy, but he really liked the game, and still plays it even though he's almost 13 now.
If I thought that the kids didn't know we were playing pretend on Elves, Santa, the Easter Bunny, the Toothfairy, etc, I wouldn't do it. The point is that it's a game, not that it's to be harmful. Tante, I think the way your mom explained it is awfully coarse.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Interesting accusation, Verily, but I don't even really know what a fundamentalist is in this context.
Your words do, indeed, imply that I am a liar, and I will stick with that.
However, what I was saying was that, from your persepective, given how you explained your perspective, that is pretty much how you will see things.(i.e. rationally, so any Santa fantasy fun is seen as a lie) If that means you are a fundamentalist, and if that in some way is insulting, I apologize. Honest.
[ December 26, 2005, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I think the most important thing is for the parents to know their own children. Verily, it seems like yours made a huge mistake to lie to you because even at an early age, you took that sort of thing very much to heart, and it did make you angry.
Other kids, like me, go seamlessly from belief to non-belief and as adults can't even remember the transition.
Other kids get a thrill out of figuring it out, or being let in on an adult secret.
It seems to me that it'd be hard to carry that resentment through to adulthood, or have it somehow shape your personality -- which is what it sounds like you are saying, Verily. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. But, it is also true that your experience is not shared by many, or most of the sample of people on this board.
I think this provokes some interesting thoughts. I don't know what I'd do if I had a child who was a budding rationalist (assuming I would even recognize it in a "Santa-age" child), but assuming I did recognize it, I do hope that I (or more likely dkw) would have the right words to deal with the situation when the time comes. It just seems like a wrong sentence at that particular moment CAN be traumatizing. Under the right (or wrong) conditions.
Parenting is a tough job. So many ways to screw up, and so many opportunities to make things great too.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
"Tante, I think the way your mom explained it is awfully coarse."
And yet, somehow, it makes me chuckle.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
"Parenting is a tough job. So many ways to screw up, and so many opportunities to make things great too."
Oh, golly, yes.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
See, I wasn't mad at my parents for lying to me. I was mad at them for telling me (the truth), and thus making it impossible for me to choose (despite all evidence) to go on believing. In my heart I knew it wasn't real, but I wanted to be able to believe anyway.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Being a Jew in a predominantly Christian culture is always going to be looking at that culture from the outside. Santa Claus was one of those cultural phenomena that we just didn't "get". I still don't really get it. I suppose that if you don't grow up with it as part of your childhood, you never will.
Ah, but the Tooth Fairy! I told my son that he should never sleep with his head under the pillow, because sometimes the Tooth Fairy will come and take an eye instead. I told him that the Tooth Fairy used the children's teeth to make piano keys. The black keys were from the kids who didn't brush their teeth. He always understood that the Tooth Fairy was a made up invention. But he was shocked when he found out that other children had heard of it, too. He had figured that it was just a crazy story that his mother made up.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
quote:I don't even really know what a fundamentalist is in this context.
You accused me of being incapable of seeing another person's point of view. I'm not interested in the question of what dogma I'm supposed to be a fundamentalist of, the point is you flat out told me that I don't have the ability to see this from anyone else's perspective. How is that not an accusation of fundamentalism?
Just because I believe something, even because I believe it strongly, does not mean I am incapable of understanding, appreciating, or even being convinced of, someone else's position. The fact that you have thus far failed to convince me that the Santa lie is acceptable does not constitute proof that I am incapable of seeing the world in any way but that which I already do.
quote:However, what I was saying was that, from your persepective, given how you explained your perspective, that is pretty much how you will see things.(i.e. rationally, so any Santa fantasy fun is seen as a lie)
Now you are blatantly ignoring my real words and are inventing words for me to have said. Show me one passage, one sentence, in which I said anything like "fantasy fun is a lie".
What I actually said was that children are capable of recognizing fantasy as fantasy, and they would still have fun with the Santa character even if they knew that he didn't really exist. I don't have a problem with playing the Santa game just as a game, and I defy you to indentify anywhere that I have said otherwise.
Telling your child that Santa Claus really does exist, with the intention of having them truly believe that he does, when you yourself know perfectly well that he does not, is, by definition, a lie. You are telling a known falsehood with the intention of having someone else believe that it is a truth. That's what a lie is. You may think I'm condemning you as a horrible person, but I'm not. My parents perpetuated the same lie, but they are not horrible people. Just because I call a spade a spade does not mean I am here to cast judgment. I'm just stating my point of view. If that point of view offends you, well, I'm sorry for that. But I'm not going to conceal or water down my point of view, because that's counterproductive to having a conversation.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Tante, if you understand about the tooth fairy, what is there not to "get" about Santa? It's pretty much the same thing -- there's nothing specifically Christian about it except the timing.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Icarus, my 18 yo niece was furious the other night because her parents said that the Santa gifts would be wrapped this year.
"WHAT!!! Santa does NOT wrap gifts!!"
Like Bob, I do not remember the moment I stopped believing. And, as mentioned, I lived right down the mountain from the North Pole, and Santa walked the streets of my town as a regular, friendly old fellow. To me, it was all magical and fun, and I was also very tied in to Christmas as a celebration of Jesus' birth.
Come to think of it, no one seems to have been traumatized by finding out Jesus was not really born in December. I wonder why?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I remember the moment I stopped believing in Santa. And I wasn't thrilled.
Out of interest, Verily, are your parents divorced?
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
No. They are still quite happily married after more than thirty years. Why? What has that to do with it?
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by dkw: Tante, if you understand about the tooth fairy, what is there not to "get" about Santa? It's pretty much the same thing -- there's nothing specifically Christian about it except the timing.
Santa does not apply to us. He is a Christmas thing, and Jews don't do Christmas.
The tooth fairy is completely secular, and, thus, an appropriate target for my mockery. My treatment of the Tooth Fairy is akin to me telling a kid that Santa is wanted for multiple counts of breaking and entering, and that he is famous for inappropriately having children sit on his lap.
Not that I would ever say such a thing.
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
I don't remember ever really believing in Santa, either. There were presents from Santa under the tree, and I remember going to see this guy in a red suit--and I even remember putting out cookies and milk for him one Christmas Eve. But I think it was always just a game for me; Santa was never a very big deal at our house. I've never had children, and am not likely to at my age, but I've often wondered how I'd handle the whole Santa issue if I had them. Probably the same way my parents did.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Verily, I apologize for offending you.
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
quote: My treatment of the Tooth Fairy is akin to me telling a kid that Santa is wanted for multiple counts of breaking and entering, and that he is famous for inappropriately having children sit on his lap.
Not that I would ever say such a thing.
LOL -- Tante, that reminds me of an old SNL "Church Lady" skit about Santa and bouncing the little ones on his lap. "What do you get when you rearrange the letters of his name? Hmmmmmm?? How about SATAN?"
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:My treatment of the Tooth Fairy is akin to me telling a kid that Santa is wanted for multiple counts of breaking and entering, and that he is famous for inappropriately having children sit on his lap.
Not that I would ever say such a thing.
I would find that less offensive than what you did say.
Posted by Santa Claus (Member # 8972) on :
What are you talking about?
I am real.
If you haven't been getting any presents from me, it is because you have been naughty instead of nice. Maybe your chances will improve next year. Good luck and Merry Christmas.
HO HO HO!!!
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
OK. I am sorry that I have offended my dear Hatrack friends. I am going to stop doing it now. I want you to know that I try to raise my son with respect and tolerance for all the people. Humor and irreverence at times, but respect. Please accept my sincere apologies for all offense I have given on this thread.
Your replies to mine are taken to heart. Thank you for showing me where I've been going wrong.
Forgive me?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I will, but will Santa?
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
*snort* (at Icky)
Forgiven, on my part.
Posted by MandyM (Member # 8375) on :
I wasn't talking about you Tante. I always find your comments full of intelligence and insight. And you are one of the few people whose reasoning behind the boycott of Santa makes sense to me. I apologize that you thought I meant you in my post. Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
::pies MandyM::
You can't simultaneously remain above the fray and take a side. You have just said that those of us who object to being characterized as silly people who lie to our children for no discernable reason are wrong to be annoyed. I suppose, then, that you would not mind being characterized in this way? Good to know.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by MandyM: I apologize that you thought I meant you in my post.
Not at all -- no apology needed!
I'm so glad we can all get along and be friends! What would I do without Hatrack?
<ponders the thought>
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
What I want to know, Tante, is what did you do before you joined Hatrack?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Well, I personally found Tante's post offensive. I believe that if I displayed a similar amount of insensitivity toward Jewish traditions, it would not be tolerated. In fact, I found hers to be the most objectionable post on this thread. So you say people are getting too worked up, but then specifically single out only Tante as someone who you do not feel that way about, well, I think you just traded in your "above it all" card.
*shrug*
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
quote:What I want to know, Tante, is what did you do before you joined Hatrack?
I'm thinking she was an Elf in Santa's Workshop at Bloomingdale's.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
I, too, am curious about Mandy's concern.
Also, Mandy, you might want to stay clear of many, many threads at Hatrack if the fact that they go off track and get down and dirty bothers you. I usually stay to the fluff threads, myself, and avoid the religious discussions and political discussions.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by ElJay: What I want to know, Tante, is what did you do before you joined Hatrack?
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I wonder if my parents saved them.![[Angst]](graemlins/angst.gif)