quote:

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Does talking on a cellphone make you drive less safely? I'll take the cellphone over the food that they keep reaching for, and I dare you to tell me that the cellphone makes a driver less aware than carrying a vanful of whiny children.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz:

But I notice a degradation in driving performance even if I'm using a hand's free cell phone or having a live conversation with a human right there in the car with me.

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I'm the same way. One of the standard responses to the anti-cell phone argument is, "well, what's the difference between talking on the phone and talking to someone in the car with you." There are several good responses to this, but I do often find myself driving in tricky traffic telling my passengers to cram a sock in it for a minute. Statistically it is safer if the person is in the car with you, but a distraction is a distraction no matter where it's coming from.

[ December 25, 2005, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: Speed ]
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
So long as the driver has a hands free, and voice dialing device, I have no problem with people talking on their phones and driving at the same time. But when they stop to dial while driving, and need a hand to hold it, I don't see how you can argue that they are just as alert and ready as someone who has both hands on the wheel, or at least both hands ready, and is focusing primarily on the road.

Is he trying to make the point that Cell phones are good against some crazed minority that thinks they aren't, or is he just making a random shout out to cell phones? If it's a shout out, more power to him, but the timing is a little random. That's like him writing an article on how much he loves laptops and how handy they are.
 

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Posted by dean (Member # 167) on :
 
I smoke while driving. I also talk on my cellphone while driving. Smoking does far worse things to my driving, in my opinion. One columnist I read a long time ago said something like this, "If I needed both hands for driving and I was on a cellphone, I could easily drop the cellphone and use both hands. People who drink coffee cannot say/do this." It's the same with cigarettes. And yet there is no legal move to stop people from eating or smoking while driving.
 

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Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
 
I don't have the attention for it. That's me personally. I'm all for people having cell phones in the car with them. I have an earpiece for emergencies or when I'm checking in with my folks during a long ride from college to home for holidays. They like to know where I'm at every other hour in case I hit traffic or an accident. These conversations never last for more than 5 minutes though.

So yeah, I think its personal and based on experience and driving style. I've only had my license for two years so I avoid food, drink, or cell phones when I'm driving. I need both my hands and my attention at the wheel. I don't even like to chat much while I'm driving because driving into second nature to me yet and there's still alot I have to think about, especially driving in areas that I don't know well.

Its not a general complaint but I think cell phones make bad drivers worse. I've seen people driving dangerously above the speed limit, weaving in and out of traffic with the wheel in one hand and the phone in the other. I've seen people blocking traffic because they're driving 20 or more miles below the speed limit while on the phone. I've been pushed OFF the road more than once by soccer moms chatting on their cell phones in their big SUVS who didn't "see me" in my little Corolla. Maybe if they'd stop talking to so-and-so on the other line they might have thought to check their mirrors.

I don't see how a cell phone can make a person a better driver so at best it won't affect your performance though there's a good chance it'll make it worse.
 

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Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
 
The amount of attention that driving demands varies, for me, depending on the conditions. If there is heavy traffic, if I have to do a lot of merging, if weather or visibility are bad, if I'm in unfamiliar territory and have to watch to avoid missing turns, etc, then it demands too much of my attention for me to comfortably talk on the phone — or at particularly bad times, even talk to a person in the car with me — while doing it.

When I'm just cruising down the highway for half an hour, or following an easy route that I follow every day in light traffic, then it's no big deal, and I talk.

Talking on a cell isn't any worse than talking to someone in the car with you under easy driving conditions. The problem is that, when you're talking to someone who is with you in the car, and the driving suddenly becomes more hectic, they are just as involved in the driving experience as you are, and will expect the conversation to drop out, pause, or derail as the situation on the road changes.

However, when you are talking to someone on a cell phone who is not in the car with you (and for heaven's sake, that is the only kind of person you should be talking to on a cell phone, unless you're weird), you typically feel a social obligation to carry on the conversation as though you were lounging on a couch or something. Long pauses, interruptions, and derailments seem rude when the other person is not involved in the driving experience with you, so you actually end up splitting off some of your attention to maintain the illusion of non-driving while driving.

If the driving gets hectic while you're in the middle of this kind of conversation, that's when it gets dangerous.
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
Lets go beyond the car thing.


OSC also mentioned annoying social cellphone faux pas'

This is the worst part of the phenomenon. I go over to friends' places these days, and if their cell phone rings, they will answer it, even when they won't answer the house line. I have particularly rude friends who answer and then talk at length or have a personal conversation while they are meant to be entertaining me or a group at their home.

Then there's restaurants. I have a strict personal policy, its tough but fair. If I go on a date, and the girl answers the phone and it isn't either her parents, or an emergency, she has under one minute to either beg out of the conversation or wrap things up. Then I say I have to leave, its not working out. If I go out with friends, its one minute, then I tell them to please get off the phone, they're out with me.

This is not as mean or awkward as it sounds, it almost never comes to that. But if it does, I am firm and fair. Just because you have a phone, doesn't mean your required to answer, your free not to
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
It's the same with call waiting. If I'm in a conversation with someone and their call waiting goes off, if they take longer than 30 seconds, I'll hang up. I have better things to do with my time. If someone calls me while I'm already on the phone, I'll only answer it long enough to find out who it is and tell them I'll call them back.

If it requires more attention - it's an emergency, for example - I'll switch to the other line, briefly explain, then switch back. To do anything else is, in my opinion, rude.

Back to the car and cell phone thing - I'm not universally against using cell phones in cars. If it's a hands-free set, and traffic doesn't require attention (ie not turning left, not merging into another lane, not in crazy stop and go traffic), then I'll use it with the caveat that I have no problem ignoring the phone conversation when I need to. But then, I usually told people I was in traffic, so it might happen. If they know, they're usually pretty understanding about it.

I only ever had one woman who got incensed because I chose to ignore her while I was turning left. But then, she was a cow with no manners anyway. And I quit working for her because of her total lack of manners. "You're fired!"
 

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Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
 
It varies for me, as most people have said. Generally, I'll answer my phone if it's called which isn't as big a problem as it sounds, I don't get all that many calls. If someone's in the car with me I always have them answer it. I only call people under two circumstances: If I'm lost, this generally isn't safe, because I get really upset when I'm lost, but I think the problem is me being upset more than me being on the phone. Or else if I'm afraid I'll go to sleep. I drive home through 2.5 hours of cornfields about every 3 weeks, and I can't drive it at night, so pulling over to the side of the road and taking a nap when I'm tired isn't really an option. In those cases it's really much safer for me to be on the phone then nodding off. I don't need to often, but I don't let debates over the relative morality of cell phones stop me when I do.

I have no problems telling people I have to go when I'm talking to them when driving, though. I just say, "I'm sorry, I really have to go," and drop the phone, people always understand.
 

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Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by dean:
I smoke while driving. I also talk on my cellphone while driving. Smoking does far worse things to my driving, in my opinion.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dean:
One columnist I read a long time ago said something like this, "If I needed both hands for driving and I was on a cellphone, I could easily drop the cellphone and use both hands. People who drink coffee cannot say/do this."

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#1: See Above

#2: As has been mentioned, this argument only works if it's the hands that affect your driving. However studies have consistently shown that people on hands-free sets are just as impaired as people holding their phones, so being willing to drop the phone wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference.

Any of the rest of you who said it's okay if you're using hands-free phones, cut-and-paste.
 

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Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
 
One other thing, for any of you who said that it's not okay in crazy traffic but it is okay if driving is easy. Consider this:

Surprises can happen at any point on the road, and if you're impaired, you're impaired. It's not nearly as easy to transition from talking to not-talking as many people would think, and even if it is, accidents can happen before you have a chance to make that decision. So whenever you're making those arguments, if you want to see if they make sense, replace "talking on the phone" with "drunk."

For example, if someone slammed into your car or your bike and they got out noticably intoxicated, which of the following arguments would make you think it's okay:

• I was only going to be on the road for a couple minutes.
• Traffic is light.
• It's not like I was going to be merging or turning left.
• I've driven this road a million times and I know it backwards and forwards.
• All I was doing was straight highway driving. You don't think I'd have driven like this in town, do you?
• Hey, at least I wasn't trying to eat while I was driving.

quote:

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Life has its risks. You have to weigh them against the benefits.

We first got a cellphone back in the days when you mounted them in your car. Within a few weeks of getting it, having a cellphone saved our child's life. We left the kids with a babysitter to watch Mark Russell speak at UNC-G, but just as we were arriving, the sitter called. It seemed that our youngest at the time, who was frail of body anyway, was sick, running a fever. The sitter's intention had been to wait till we got home a couple of hours later. But since our oldest child knew our carphone number, the sitter called.

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We being the key word. Having the cell phone helped. Having a passenger in the car saved having to take eyes off the road and potentially cause a fatal accident.

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Talking on the phone, even hands-free, is a totally unnecessary risk. Lives are at stake. This is not a joke. Pull over. You are not the exception. Yes, I'm talking to you*. Does someone have to die for you to realize this?

*you=all you insane people who drive while talking.
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
I drive while talking all the time. It helps sometimes, especially when I'm going to be driving for a while. It actually helps keep me more alert. I have a tendency to daydream when I don't have something actively holding my attention, and trees and cow pastures alongside an unending stretch of highway just don't cut it. I really don't feel as though I'm endangering anyone. I also eat in the car soemtimes. I've applied makeup while driving in the past, but only while at a red light. To me, that takes a lot more concentration (not to mention focus of my visual faculties) than eating or cell phones. Well, mostly because it takes two hands.

-pH
 

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Posted by Mean Old Frisco (Member # 6666) on :
 
So it keeps you more alert and makes you less alert. Seems like a wash to me. Get more sleep. Open the windows. Turn up the radio.

Seriously, this bugs me even more than people who think they can drive okay drunk. Because it's legal. When you finally face the consequences, you're pacing around my car waiting for the police to come write up a report for the insurance company. Or in the hospital. Or dead.

And the last thing we need is a dead Pearce.
 

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Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
 
I didn't realise it was still legal in the US.

Here it's illegal unless you have a government approved hands-free kit.

The police really cracked down on it when the legislation passed, and I very rarely now see someone talking without a hands-free kit.

And when I do, they are uniformly bad drivers.
 

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Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by pH:
I drive while talking all the time. It helps sometimes, especially when I'm going to be driving for a while. It actually helps keep me more alert.

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I hate to keep beating a dead horse, but I knew a chronic drunk driver once. Although he fortunately didn't ever kill anyone, he did get three tickets for it (after hundreds of instances) and went to jail. Even after his third ticket when his license was suspended and he was awaiting the court date that would eventually send him to the can, he'd still frequently go get sauced at the local watering hole and then drive home.

He had several ways of justifying this to himself, but one of them was that he thought that if he was just intoxicated enough, it actually helped him drive better. And nothing anyone could say would convince him otherwise.

The point is, I'm with Frisco. I know a lot of people who think they're special. They have a special brain or they drive under special circumstances. But there's actually been a lot of research done on this, and the result is, they're wrong. And if they can't drive safely without either being drunk or being on the cell phone, perhaps they shouldn't be driving.

I think that people who talk and drive are, for the most part, decent people. Even the people who end up causing horrifying accidents probably aren't malicious jerks. (Heck, even the woman in the letter I posted earlier admits that she used to drive while talking until she had to watch her daughter die in front of her.) These people just take unnecessary risks for various seemingly justifiable reasons. And these risks can have disasterous consequences the likes of which I wouldn't wish on anyone here.
 

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Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
I will talk on the cell phone and drive. And nosh, fiddle with the car stereo, belt out tunes, hold conversations with imaginary passengers. But when conditions are "white knuckle", I do nothing but drive with deep attention. No radio, no one allowed to talk in the car, both hands gripping the wheel. But these situations are not typical, and such white knuckle deep attention is difficult to maintain for long periods without becoming exhausting.

For standard driving conditions, I have no problem with it.
 

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Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
 
Having personally been almost run off the road many times by people talking on their phones and not paying a damn bit of attention to the traffic around them, I'm gonna weigh in on the side of not talking on the phone while driving. It's just dangerous for the vast majority of people.

The other situations (in which people are just rude)--well, that's just it. It's rude, not illegal. I will continue to be disgusted by people who talking loudly on their phones in restaurants, movie theaters, etc., in the same way that I'd be disgusted by someone yelling and screaming in those same situations. Kat posted something a while back about being aware of your surroundings as an important part of adulthood. In that spirit, I think people who engage in rude behavior as described above are behaving immaturely. Illegal? No. Obnoxious? Abso-freakin'-lutely.
 

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Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
On the social (and work) side of things, a cell phone is an indespensible part of my life. I'm on the road about 50% of the time. Calling the office or home from hotels or payphones is not only too expensive, but vastly inconvenient. And it is only one way. If someone needs to reach me, they don't have to wait until I call in.

It makes work a lot more efficient. With the right calling plan, it also makes calling loved ones a lot more affordable too (free in-network calls are our friends).

Because the cell phone is an appendage, I have gotten used to turning it off, or to silent mode in situations where a cell phone would be annoying to others.

Holding a conversation in a public place -- it depends on the place. If I'm in a restaurant, I leave the table and go someplace where I won't disturb others. Unless it's a McDonalds or something, or I'm out with just one person (in which case it seems more rude to leave them alone). Typically, I just try to get off the phone as quickly as possible, and I'll even use caller ID to screen calls. Taking those from home, the office and clients, but not others.

If I'm in an airport or something, sitting alone, hey, the place is practically MADE for cell phone usage. I can catch up on work while I wait for them to decide that it's time to herd us onto the plane.
 

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Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
First, I am not one to gab on the cell phone forever. I like my calls short and to the point. That said, I do not mind other people talking on them when I'm around. I have the same feeling about it as when people around me are having conversations with folk who are actually in the room.

The hands-free things with that little bud that fits into the ear, however. I have mistaken folk talking on their cell phones with folk who are mentally ill. I'm in the supermarket and there is some guy talking to himself in front of the dairy case: "There's so many kinds of yogurt. The big containers. The small ones. What should I get? Nonfat? Lowfat? I don't know, the list just said 'yogurt'." I'm cutting a wide berth around this guy before I realize that he is talking on the phone to his wife, begging for guidance.
 

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Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
 
Tante

Speaking of the social aspect, that reminds me of a pet peeve that hasn't been mentioned here. I really hate it when people go through grocery store lines or fast food counters or ticket windows or the like, and can't be bothered to get off the phone to communicate with the person who is helping them. Yes, the person that is helping you is doing a job and getting paid. But they're also a human being who deserves a little more respect than having orders barked at them mid-conversation.

I've spent my fair share of time working in a retail pharmacy, and I refuse to help people until they get off their phone. Of course, I have some sort of professional justification for that, since I have certain legal obligations that I need a person's undivided attention to make sure I've fulfilled. But even if that weren't the case, I think the very least you can do for someone who is trying to help you is give them a smile, a thank-you, and 30 seconds of your valuable time to acknowledge that they too are, in fact, human beings.

Just my opinion, though.
 

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Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
I get plenty enough attention, and I don't mind if it is divided or undivided. Sometimes it just doesn't matter.

However, if you go through your life getting annoyed about all these petty things, and letting other people just burn you up, you are going to spend great huge chunks of your life ticked off. And what is the point of that?

Just let it go, love all the people and their foolish ways, and when something happens that would make you say "That just burns me up", say instead "That just cracks me up". Then you will go through your days happy and full of joy instead of ticked off all the time.

Try it. You'll like it.
 

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Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
 
So you never get ticked off at anyone? That's amazing... you should write a self-help book.
 

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Posted by Zemra (Member # 5706) on :
 
Totally agree with you Speed about people that go through grocery lines or pharmacy lines talking on their phones and demanding attention from the other person when they them selves can not have the disency to hang up and be respectful to the other person. I worked in retail pharmacy for 5 years and during these years of working with the public you learn how to handle certain situations and how to handle certain types of people, but I never learned how to handle people on cell phones. I made sure that they knew that I was not helping them because they were not ready to be helped so i would always skip them and help the next person in line. I made it a point to do that every single time. Without fail every single time that I did that i had customers upset at me. You need to understand I am excellent at customer service and anyone who knows me will agree to that, but I have no tolerence for people who bluntly disrespect me. I think that they are uneducated (it doesn't matter how many years of school they have gone through)and rude and I feel sorry for them. I make it a point to have my cell phone on silence whenever in public so that I don't have to disturb anyone. I was at the library studing in a quiet area part of the library and some guys phone rings, we all heard and he answered the phone while sitting at the desk. I HAVE NO PATIENCE FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE NO RESPECT FOR OTHERS.
 

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Posted by Zemra (Member # 5706) on :
 
Tante good point, I like to go through life being positive and I don't normally dwell on negative things, but you obviously have never worked customer service. If you had you would never have written what you just did. I think that you should try working in customer service areas and then you will understand why people are I think you used "burn up" I use "ticked off" when that happens.
 

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Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
I have worked in retail, and as a front desk clerk, but I also think that working as a home care nurse counts as dealing with the public and customer service.

It is a conscious decision to laugh off people's dopey behavior. I just got tired of feeling upset at petty things all day. If it can be shrugged off rather than let under my skin, that's for me.

Sometimes I even get to laugh off the big stuff, too. Dad is behaving badly, philandering, cheating on his mistress with another woman? That guy! When will he ever learn? Just cracks me up.

This attitude makes about as much difference as all the hand-wringing in the world, so why wear out my hands?
 

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Posted by dean (Member # 167) on :
 
I always apologize both to the person on the phone and the person behind the counter if I'm on the phone when I get to the front of the line, and I try to avoid it. However, I really don't care if someone I'm helping at this customer service job or the one I had right before this one is talking on the phone. In terms of showing disrespect, the phone is way, way down the list. For example, death threats, yelling, threatening to go to other places that provide the same service, are all much more unpleasant than someone having a conversation on their phone. I don't even find the phone particularly annoying.
 

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Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
 
When I was working as a computer lab consultant, people would constantly walk up to me and want help, but could not be bothered to get off their phones to even ask me the question. In order to get the complete question and provide a complete answer, I had to have their attention. It got to the point where I would say, "I'll wait until your call is finished," and then turn back to my computer until they were done.
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
Frisco, I never said that it makes me both more alert and less alert. YOU said it makes me less alert. I can understand that in city traffic. Stop-and-go type situations. But when it comes to a twenty-hour drive? Give me the cell phone.

If I could afford it, I'd do all my in-the-car talking on my car's cell phone, which is the coolest thing on the face of the earth. It's wired in with OnStar. You speak the numbers, and it dials, and then the conversation comes in through the car's speakers. So whenever you talk to someone, it sounds like the person is ALL AROUND YOU.

As for conversations in public places, it depends on the place. I don't answer my phone at all if I'm having lunch or dinner with someone. If I'm there by myself, I'll sometimes pick it up and talk quietly. If I'm at a store and someone calls though, I generally hang up before I get to the chashier.

-pH
 

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Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by pH:
Frisco, I never said that it makes me both more alert and less alert. YOU said it makes me less alert.

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Actually, that wasn't Frisco. It was all the relevant scientific data.

I can understand the mix-up, though.
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 


-pH
 

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Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
 
I agree that people who can't get off the phone to receive help or give help are VERY annoying.

However, here is something I have never understood. I don't know why I get so annoyed if someone is on a cell phone in line with me at the movies.

2 people talking doesn't bother me, so why is one so offensive? It shouldn't be. Maybe I am just annoyed I can't eavesdrop on the other line.

I accept the data that says cell phones in cars are dangerous. Can someone help me understand why they are more dangerous then talking to a passenger?
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
I try not to have too many conversations while waiting in lines for movies or something because I'm sure only hearing my side of the conversation sounds really, really weird.

-pH
 

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Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
 
I came home last night and found a vehicle parked in my private parking space. I knocked on the other doors in my building with lights on and asked if anyone knew whose vehicle it was (no one did), and when I went back out there was a guy standing next to the vehicle talking on a cell phone.

I asked if this was his vehicle, and when he said it was, I asked him--very politely--if he could move it somewhere else, because he was in my parking space. He responded--just as rudely as I had been polite--"Uh, I'm leaving in a few minutes, and I'm on the phone."



What I wanted to say:
"I'm talking to you even though you're on the phone, and you're parked in this space even though it's mine. So right now we're inconveniencing each other. The thing is, the whole reason this is happening is that you were inconsiderate in the first place. If you would get in your vehicle and move it somewhere else, right now, then I'd stop talking to you and both our problems would be solved in one stroke."

What I actually said:
"Okay."



Yes, I know I did the right thing by not getting nasty about it. Still, it infuriates me that he treated me like I was the one committing the greater rudeness by interrupting his precious phone conversation. Poor baby thinks he's entitled to his phone conversation just because he has a cell phone? Well, I'm entitled to my private parking space, because I live here. So just get your little baby self in that driver's seat of your vehicle--whose make, model, and license plate number I have written down, just in case you think you can do this to me again--and piss off.

I know, I know. "Ha ha, that crazy selfish baby just cracks me up," would be the more appropriate response to what is, after all, a trivial inconvenience rather than a major life-altering crisis. Still, you know? Argh!


 

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Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
 
Wow, right on for the self-restraint!

My response would've been something along the lines of your first response, only I probably would've been less nice.
 

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Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by lem:
I accept the data that says cell phones in cars are dangerous. Can someone help me understand why they are more dangerous then talking to a passenger?

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quote:

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Originally posted by A Rat Named Dog:
However, when you are talking to someone on a cell phone who is not in the car with you (and for heaven's sake, that is the only kind of person you should be talking to on a cell phone, unless you're weird), you typically feel a social obligation to carry on the conversation as though you were lounging on a couch or something. Long pauses, interruptions, and derailments seem rude when the other person is not involved in the driving experience with you, so you actually end up splitting off some of your attention to maintain the illusion of non-driving while driving.

If the driving gets hectic while you're in the middle of this kind of conversation, that's when it gets dangerous.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Speed:

quote:

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Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz:

But I notice a degradation in driving performance even if I'm using a hand's free cell phone or having a live conversation with a human right there in the car with me.

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I'm the same way. One of the standard responses to the anti-cell phone argument is, "well, what's the difference between talking on the phone and talking to someone in the car with you." There are several good responses to this, but I do often find myself driving in tricky traffic telling my passengers to cram a sock in it for a minute. Statistically it is safer if the person is in the car with you, but a distraction is a distraction no matter where it's coming from.

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Statistically it may be safer for most people, but then, I often try to look at the person who is in the car with me when I am having a conversation with a live person, at least I'm looking at the road when I'm on my cell.

That said, I work for the cellular industry and I can tell you that I avoid being on the phone while driving whenever possible. If I have to use the phone I always use a headset so that I can at least keep both hands on the wheel. And please, don't call in to customer service centers to make payments or do anything else that requires you to write something or give your credit card number while you are driving. It's simply not safe.
 

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Posted by Mean Old Frisco (Member # 6666) on :
 
In what seems like a cosmic protest of my meanness to Pearce, a lady on a cell phone nearly mowed me down on my way to work this morning.

Since she did actually make contact with me, I, in typical New yorker fashion, slapped the hood of her shiny SUV and said "Hang up and drive, idiot!" But with a smile. She didn't smile back, though.
 

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Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Mean Old Frisco:
I, in typical New yorker fashion, slapped the hood of her shiny SUV and said "Hang up and drive, idiot!" But with a smile.

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I love that you gently corrected her and added on your very charming smile. That is why New Yorkers have a reputation for being the nicest, politest people in the world.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
I'm all for Tante's "laugh things off" method. It's something I do a fair amount of myself (but then, like Tante, I'm a fundamentally happy person, so it's something that comes naturally. If I weren't such a person I'm not sure how much good it would do to try to be this way).

That said, that wouldn't be my response to the guy who was in your parking spot, Verily. Laughing things off is a good response if it's a situation that you can resolve yourself, or if it's one in which there isn't really anything you can do one way or another. In this situation you needed to get it resolved. Given that,in your place I probably would have laughed and said something to the effect of "Sorry to interrupt you--looks like we're inconveniencing each other. If you'll just move your car I'll get out of your hair". Whatever the guy's response, I'd have maintained a shield of genial positivity.

So how long was it until he moved his car? And where you parked in the meantime (when you were going door to door and such), just out of curiosity?
 

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Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
I talk and drive.

I talked for most of my one hour and fifteen minute drive home last night. It was 10 at night and the drive was all interstate and deserted. I don't mind talking on the phone for a drive like that. I don't talk until I hit the interstate, usually. I don't talk when I'm in traffic. I don't talk when I'm in an unfamiliar place. I don't do any of those things because they require my full attention.

Driving down a deserted interstate in the middle of the night does not require my full attention. In that situation, anyone driving alone whether they're on a cellphone or not is not giving the driving their full attention.

Most driving doesn't require your full attention. Almost everyone does something else while they're driving. If it's not eating, listening to music, playing car games, talking, or singing then it's at least thinking.

Should I also try to stop thinking while I'm driving? Should I strive for that zen-like focus in order to maximize my driving capacity? I don't know, but it seems like overkill. I can't help but ponder worldly things when I'm driving long distances.

Where am I going in life? Am I where I thought I would be? Should I quit my job and move to LA? Shouldn't I be more accomplished at this point in my life? Should I go to grad school? How much longer is my grandmother going to be with us? How will I handle that with my parents when they get that age? Will my brother ever grow up? I wonder if I'll get a chance to do some fishing this spring? I have fish in my freezer; I think I'll cook that for dinner tomorrow....

And so on.

I don't know how I could prevent that, or if I should even try to.
 

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Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
 
I'm pretty sure that in all the cell phone studies, the people in the control group were thinking.
 

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Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
Yes, but don't you think they know that their driving is being observed and are therefore more likely to pay closer attention to what they're doing?

How long were they studied? Were they observed for long drives or short ones? City, rural, or interstate? Was each driver observed on more than one occasion?

I haven't read the studies, but for me it was easy to drive perfect in drivers ed, with the instructor next to you or even now, when my parents are in the car.

But when you get alone or with friends it's easy to forget about ten and two.
 

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Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
Not like I've got any traffic safety studies in fron of me now, but it is possible to study people who don't know that they are being studied. Like take an "exit survey" after an accident, and find out whether the drivers were eating, driving with others or alone, listening to the radio, talking on their cellphones, or had liquor in their systems.

But, duh, if I know I'm being watched, I'm sure to obey the speed limit, keep my hands at 10 and 2, properly use my directional signal, come to a full and complete stop at all stop signs, and, yeah, no cell phone.

I mean, don't we all?
 

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Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
"Oh no, officer. I wasn't eating, drinking, or talking on my phone. If the other guy said that I think he's trying to cover up his own drinking."

But yeah, I agree, there are ways to get the data without the people knowing. When I get off of work I'll actually read some of the studies and see how they're collecting their data.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Without a doubt, I'm worse with real people in the car than I am with a cell phone. I feel that I need to give far *more* attention to a person who is in the car with me, than I do to some one I'm talking on the phone with. It's a combination of hospitality brainwashing and a physical presence thing. I'm always glancing at them for body language. I focus far more on the road, while on a cell phone. And when I'm pretty loopy driving home, talking to someone keeps me more alert by far, otherwise I'd totally zone out.

Is it safer than "ideal" circumstances. No, but from that standpoint, I'm basically almost always driving impaired. In the morning on the way to work, I'm not awake, nor is my brain functioning, and in the evening coming home from work, I'm exhausted and my brain isn't functioning. But I have to work.

The nice thing is, that the majority of my trip is on a single road in a straight line. Makes things a bit easier.

AJ
 

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Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
 
One of the first studies didn't observe people directly at all. It cross-referenced cell phone records with accident reports to see how many accidents in a certain period of time were caused by people who were on their phones. This is where the initial statistic of people on cell phones being four times more likely to cause accidents comes from.

And in the studies where people were being directly observed, the people on the phones had just as much incentive to pay attention and be careful as the control group, so it wouldn't have made any difference even then. There have been loads of studies using many different methods, but they've all come up with very similar results.

I realize there's a human tendency to make assumptions that will justify behaviour you're going to undertake anyway. But these studies are easily available... you should have a look at them before you dismiss their results.

Find me one single study that shows even the most minute improvement under any circumstances with any sub-population of drivers using cell phones and you'll have a starting point for your discussion. Heck, it should be easy to find such results if they're true... there are several multi-billion dollar cell phone companies that would be willing to pay a literal fortune for those results if they thought there was any chance they could get them.

But with the overwhelming evidence saying that cell phones make you drive worse, and no evidence saying they make you drive better, you'll have to forgive me if "cell phones help me concentrate" doesn't quite convince me.
 

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Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
First, I never claimed that cellphones made anyone a better driver.

I just said, like AJ did, that I'm always distracted in some way, as is everyone I've ever ridden with save for my grandpa, who never drives more than 35 or farther than 3 miles from his house.

And I also said that people being studied are obviously going to have some incentive to be on their best behavior, so to speak. You can't just say that because both groups had the same incentive it cancels out. Well, you can of course, but I just don't see it.
 

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Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Speed:
One of the first studies didn't observe people directly at all. It cross-referenced cell phone records with accident reports to see how many accidents in a certain period of time were caused by people who were on their phones. This is where the initial statistic of people on cell phones being four times more likely to cause accidents comes from.

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quote:

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Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
First, I never claimed that cellphones made anyone a better driver.

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quote:

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Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
I just said, like AJ did, that I'm always distracted in some way, as is everyone I've ever ridden with save for my grandpa, who never drives more than 35 or farther than 3 miles from his house.

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Good point. I'm going to go drink a fifth of tequila and drive to Denver. Heck, I was going to have my stereo on anyway, so what's the difference?
 

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Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
Actually, the first study that came out looking at "actual" cell phone use in real driving situations was fatally flawed. They could not distinguish between cell phone calls happening in the moments leading up to the crash and post-crash calls for assistance.

It is rather interesting to note that the evidence for impairment from direct observational studies always yields larger magnitudes of impairment due to distraction than do studies of actual usage during real-life driving conditions.

I believe there's a very obvious reason for this. People in real life (not contrived) situations tend to moderate their behavior.

I don't know of a study that compares cell phone use during long drives on empty highways versus non-cell phone use, but I suspect that there'd be some evidence that'd be pro-cell phone use if it kept drowsy drivers awake.

Sadly, there aren't enough studies under enough conditions. I would no more support a ban of cell phone use based on current data than I would support the advice that says it's okay to use them under any situation.

Basically, my take on it is completely personal. Every driver is responsible for operating safely. If a cell phone (or other distraction) keeps you from performing the driving task safely under the current conditions, then you need to stop it.

And I also think that people need to be honest with themselves about their own limitations. I KNOW I can't safely talk on a cell phone and drive in even moderate traffic, or in a parking lot, or anywhere that requires repeated and rapid changes in where you focus your attention while driving. I just can't do it and feel safe. So I don't.

On a highway with 20 miles between exits and no other cars in sight, I would be much more comfortable using a cell phone.
 

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Posted by Speed (Member # 5162) on :
 
I wonder where you're getting this information. In the study I read, not only were they able to tell the difference between calls during and after crashes, they were also able to differentiate between calls ended 5 and 15 minutes before crashes, and analyze the difference between their effects and the likelihood of distraction. And they've been fairly similar to the results I've seen in other tests with other methods. I don't know of any tests involving direct observation that report a significantly higher level of distraction than the first one. Perhaps we're thinking of different studies.

I actually looked up many of these studies in their original periodicals when I was in pharmacy school, and analyzed them with the techniques I was taught in the classes I had on the subject. I also went to pharmacy school at the same university where some of these tests were being performed, and although I wasn't personally acquainted with the professors performing them (they were on the other side of campus in the psych department), I discussed them with a couple of my professors who knew them (in fact, once it came up in my statistics class), and they seemed to approve of the tests and the people running them on a personal/professional level. All the studies I read, performed on and off my campus, seemed pretty solid to me, and I never found any good studies showing contrary data (which, again, would be worth a lot to some people) or responses to them in these periodicals that said what you're saying. Unfortunately it's harder to get my hands on the full-text of many of these studies online to discuss them directly, but I'd like to hear where you're getting this information from.

I'm off to work now, but I'll be keeping an eye out here.
 

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Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
 

quote:

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That said, that wouldn't be my response to the guy who was in your parking spot, Verily. Laughing things off is a good response if it's a situation that you can resolve yourself, or if it's one in which there isn't really anything you can do one way or another. In this situation you needed to get it resolved.

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quote:

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So how long was it until he moved his car? And where you parked in the meantime (when you were going door to door and such), just out of curiosity?

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quote:

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If I had videotape of the woman trying to make a three point turn, or of the various drivers I've seen looking at their phone instead of the road, or wandering across lanes of traffic while they yak on the phone, does this adequately demonstrate that it is unsafe to drive while talking on the phone?

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Not unless you compared it to how they drive when they're not on the phone.

Nor would it provide any information as to whether it's possible to drive safely while on the phone.
 

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Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
 
Having been passed on an open highway like I was standing still (I was actually doing about 75 mph) by our esteemed host, I'd just like to say I'd rather he didn't talk on the cellphone while he's behind the wheel.


 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
I think it's pretty much common sense that distracted driving can be dangerous. However, I think there are already laws on the books to cover that. If you're driving recklessly, then you are liable for what happens. Personally, I don't care if the person that's driving recklessly was on the phone, eating a cheeseburger, changing the radio station or just plain idiotic, if they're driving recklessly and they cause an accident they should suffer the consequences. Since we can't possibly write specific laws to cover every single possible distraction, then I think we should just let well enough alone with the laws we already have on the books.

Some people can talk on the phone and drive and not suffer any more distraction than if they were chatting with a passenger. some people can't. It's up to you, as a responsible adult, to know your limits. I never dial a phone while I'm driving. I will dial at a light, or if I'm stopped in traffic. That's because dialing takes too much of my attention away from the road and I know, as a responsible adult, that I shouldn't do that. I will talk on the phone however, because I don't find that it is an impairment to my driving. It's certainly much less of an impairment than four screaming kids in the back of the van, let me tell you.
 

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Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
Speed,the study I'm referring to was several years ago, out of Canada. It was the very first study relating cell phone use to actual crashes, and they tried to say that they were able to figure out whether the cell phone use was pre- or post-crash, but the fact was that their measures of the time of the call and the time of the crash were inaccurate to the point where they really couldn't tell for sure. I don't recall the authors, but it was one of those "nice try" kinds of things.

They did follow-ups with some of the drivers, as I recall, but it still wasn't very convincing.

I haven't followed this issue for a long time. To me, it's kind of a no-brainer. If you are driving in conditions that are taxing your attention, you shouldn't do anything that would distract you, and you should not tolerate distractions from others in your vehicle. Period. The driver is responsible for safe operation. Failing that, they are to blame for the crash should one occur.

I don't think there's a need to pick on cell phones per se. Really, it's a matter of teaching people to be aware of the situations they are in and adjust their behavior accordingly. If we taught drivers that, we wouldn't have to worry about the relative contributions of various distractors.

As for newer research on this issue:
I'd be interested in some references if you'd like to send them along. It's possible someone came up with a methodology that will surprise me. There are some pretty smart people out there doing research. But let's just say I'm a skeptic when it comes to things that aren't actually recordable reliably by an average cop responding to a crash scene. Statements about distractions, drowsiness, seatbelt use, and several other things routinely recorded on crash reports are just not reliable. In most states, they don't even have a spot to record something like cell phone usage.

Anyway, if you have some reports that I should look at, please send the references. I'd be interested in seeing what researchers have come up with to get around the limitations of the actual crash data.
 

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Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
 

quote:

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Several people on this thread have said that they drive better on a cell phone. Others have said that they don't drive worse on a cell phone. Neither statement has any basis in fact, and both are disproven by the preponderance of the evidence

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dagonee:

quote:

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If I had videotape of the woman trying to make a three point turn, or of the various drivers I've seen looking at their phone instead of the road, or wandering across lanes of traffic while they yak on the phone, does this adequately demonstrate that it is unsafe to drive while talking on the phone?

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Not unless you compared it to how they drive when they're not on the phone.

Nor would it provide any information as to whether it's possible to drive safely while on the phone.

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Ok, good points. But it seems to me they could be incorporated into a study. My major point being that videotapes of driving behavior could bypass the need for data from crashes.
 

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Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
 
Apparently cell phones are not the most distracting thing you can use while driving.
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Well, I've not quite seen worse. And I'm not going there...
 

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Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
 
The title of the article says it all, "Police: Weaving Driver Distracted by Porn."
 

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Posted by signal (Member # 6828) on :
 
To put it lightly, I very much dislike all people who talk on their cell phones while driving. This is my BIGGEST pet peeve. Even if it's friends or family that call. If I know that they are driving, I'll ask if its an emergency. If not, I'll tell them to call me back, then hang up. The last accident I was in, involved me stopped at a stop light and 5 cars running into me. All of those drivers got out and were on their phones. Not with their insurance, but saying something to the effect of "I'll have to call you back. I just into an accident." If you feel its really that important, you can wait to pull over, instead of putting yourself and everyone else on the road at risk.

Also, Mythbusters did an expiriment on cell phone driving and showed that it is just as dangerous, if not more so, to be on a phone as it is to be drunk. I also call BS on the whole 'dropping your phone'. No one does that unless they get into an accident.

Seriously, people need to stop being stubborn about this. If you think it makes you more alert or less tired or whatever, stop rationalizing this to yourselves. You probably shouldn't be driving then. Get off the road, take a nap, get something to eat, walk around, I don't care. But stop putting others at risk.
 

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Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
 
I could never talk on a cell phone while driving. I'd never hit the fairway.
 

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Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
The big question is how did he manage to drive, look at porn, and weave at the same time. Now that's multi-tasking. Not to mention getting the loom into the front seat.
 

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