I'm reading this classic by Heinlein. It's another one of those books that's been on my shelf for years and years and I finally picked it up. What a great read! Funny and philosophical. I'm about halfway through. I assume a few of you guys and gals have read this...what do you think?
Posted by Mean Old Frisco (Member # 6666) on :
I keep waiting for one of those sex churches to open in my neighborhood. Definitely a religion I could sink my teeth into.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
LOL! I grok you.
Posted by kojabu (Member # 8042) on :
I really liked the first half of that book, but the second half didn't do as much for me for some reason.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
grok
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
Here you go.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Like Castenada, this book was very influential in the Free love, Drug, Ohhming hippy movement... and like Castenada its point is as totally missed as that of Starship Troopers by most people.
Learning to Grok.. that is a discipline as high as learning higher math in five ancient human languages. Learning the Martian tounge was almost impossible for a human but once done the gift was a 'Map' to reality that opened many doors to perception and latent abilities.
In short Discipline begets Power. Yet people get bogged down in the Free Sharing aspect of it that is just an aspect of trivializing the possession aspect of love.
I wonder what you thought Temp when Jubal refered to Homosexuals and "Poor inbetweeners" and thought Micheal would "Grok Wrongness" in them?
BC
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I utterly disliked that book. The only good thing I gleaned from it was the word "grok".
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Well, since even Jubal learned better in the end.....
Funny how you think that what matters to YOU is serious but the main point to others is trivial....
I liked the book, but it was a little over the top for me.
However, since the last 2/3 of the book was about explaining what Grokking is, and explaining the communal lifestyle that allows humans to learn it, I wouldn't call that a trivial aspect of the book.
Also, Castanada was an idiot, and his books were suppose to be about teaching an actual, specific path to power.....SIASL isn't the same thing at all, for all of it's metaphysical bullshit.
Yes, I have read both, BTW. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: I liked the book, but it was a little over the top for me.
Most of Heinlein's novels are that way for me. I like a lot of his short stories, but I haven't found a book of his that I've been able to actually tolerate.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I like his ideas, even when I don't agree with them, and some of them are very interesting reads, but I have always found him pretentious and over the top a bit.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
Have you tried The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Tom? Podkayne of Mars? The original, of course. Any of the "Boy's Life" juveniles he wrote?
Btw, for those who like Heinlein's juveniles, I recommend John Varley's Red Thunder. Highly.
[ December 27, 2005, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: starLisa ]
Posted by aiua (Member # 7825) on :
His portrayal of women is awful and, unfortunately, does not change from book to book. Other than that, I loved it. Jubal rocks.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I know at least one woman who would disagree . . .
-o-
I really liked Stranger when I read it. I read it several times, but it's been over fifteen years, and so I'm not certain if I would still enjoy it as much. I think it's almost better for me not to reread it, and remember the perhaps mythical Stranger of my memory. Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
I know at least one other woman who would disagree. <----
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Me, too. Although I think that in most cases his women are idealized.
Stranger has some great stuff in it. I freely admit that Patty Paiwonski has had a deep effect on my own personal theology
[ December 27, 2005, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: kmbboots ]
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
I love Varley. I've been reading him ever since "The Barbie Murders" came out. I've even read and reread the Titan trilogy (which caused me a lot of deja vu when Xena came around). Red Thunder was so different from his old stuff.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
quote:Learning to Grok.. that is a discipline as high as learning higher math in five ancient human languages. Learning the Martian tounge was almost impossible for a human but once done the gift was a 'Map' to reality that opened many doors to perception and latent abilities.
Interesting... reminds me of what was said of the Talon language in "Earth: Final Conflict". Obviously they gave tribute to the Martian language. Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Reading Hienlien is interesting because so many science fiction devices and cliches originated in his stories.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
Waldos, waterbeds and moving walkways.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Castenada an 'Idiot'? As untrue as calling Joseph Smith an 'Idiot' and probably tied to the same types of reasons people do just that.
Pick up a movie called "What the Bleep do we know" and see how many 'Idiots' are pitching the same snake oil with a new flavor.
The nest was uncomfortable for me for a couple reasons, I like a more cluttered and open life, I like the designs for the Long Household better.
Just remember that Hienlien's Cliches were not cliches when he wrote them. They have become so because they were so visionary.
BC
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: Pick up a movie called "What the Bleep do we know" and see how many 'Idiots' are pitching the same snake oil with a new flavor.
We are agreed, then, that it's "snake oil" we're talking about?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Waldos, waterbeds and moving walkways.
Alien parasites that infect us and then take over our nervous system infiltrate us and try to take over humanity.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I love love love that book.
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
I like the book, partly because it's the only example I can think of where one character expressed an extended point of view and another disagreed intelligently. I get really tired of Heinlein's "X is y, and anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot!" "You're sure right about that! How could anyone not think x is y?" "Well, I just don't know. X is so clearly and implicitly y, it's beyond argument..." conversations.
But I do think the conversation about humor is an oversimplification.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
All you need to do is give one counter example and you win the prize, we are all waiting!
BC
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Maybe this is why Tom and I don't get along. He hates Heinlein. =)
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I don't HATE Heinlein. I just think he often engaged in self-indulgent wish fulfillment, and that his longer fiction -- especially novels -- was especially prone to this flaw. Moreover, he was NOT a character writer, and not even a political theorist (although he fancied himself both); he was an idea geek, and was at his best when basically ticking off, in simple language, a catalog of his ideas.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Heinlein is SO arrogant and pretentious! I totally agree with that. But he's still good.
He said that people who don't understand higher math aren't really human, they may have been housebroken but they don't count as human beings.
Can anyone say that's not arrogant? Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
"Waldos, waterbeds and moving walkways."
Did Heinlein think of all of these first? If so, in which books?
I just started reading Heinlein a couple days ago when I got books from him as presents. I'm reading Citizen of the Galaxy right now and I'm loving it.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Waldos in the novella Waldo.
Waterbeds may be from the same place. I did read somewhere that the guy who made the first real waterbed took out a patent for the concept--in Heinlein's name, since that's where he got the idea from.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
And moving walkways?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
"The Roads Must Roll," but freedictionary.com gives Wells credit for coming up with them first.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Includes phrases coined by him, such as astrogation, and lots of stuff that doesn't really exist yet.
Apparently waterbeds are from Stranger. Silly me.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
This site gives Heinlein credit for imagining air dryers, cold-rest/cold-sleep, cyborgs (arguably Frankenstein was a cyborg, no? Maybe Heinlein coined the phrase?), CAD (in the form of Drafting Dan, from Door Into Summer), Eetee as a phrase for extraterrestrials, flying saucers (?), screen savers, photovoltaic cells used to power vehicles, traffic control cameras, the microwave, prepackaged microwave meals, and pocketphones.
Now, I don't know just how seriously to take all of that, but then, he was an idea man at the start of modern science fiction, so he was coming up with what the future would look like before anybody else except Asimov had a shot at it.
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bean Counter: All you need to do is give one counter example and you win the prize, we are all waiting!
BC
Could you be more specific? I don't even know if you're referring to my post.
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Yay for Telpy! Stranger is one of those books I find myself re-reading at least once a year - it's part of my literary comfort food.
space opera
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Ahhh....BC, YOU are the one trying to prove someone's ideas are worth learning...how about YOU provide an example?
As soon as you learn AP from those books let me know what I just wrote on this peice of paper in front of me and perhaps I will believe you.
On a completely different note, if Discipline and Power are what make you what you today perhaps I should be grateful for noticing it was snake oil when I read it. Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: This site gives Heinlein credit for imagining air dryers, cold-rest/cold-sleep, cyborgs (arguably Frankenstein was a cyborg, no?
Did the monster have mechanical parts? I'm sure Frankenstein himself didn't.
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: Now, I don't know just how seriously to take all of that, but then, he was an idea man at the start of modern science fiction, so he was coming up with what the future would look like before anybody else except Asimov had a shot at it.
You should find a copy of Fred Pohl's The Way the Future Was. It's an amazing depiction of how the field got started. Heinlein may have been the first Grand Master, but he was far from the first guy in modern science fiction.
He did have some amazing ideas, though. I remember how shocked I was when he died. To this day, I have a sneaking suspicion that he's a Howard, and that he just faked his death...
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Don't forget the description of Friday "surfing the net" - published in 1982.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
He said that people who don't understand higher math aren't really human, they may have been housebroken but they don't count as human beings.
Point of order: Heinlein did not say he believed that, one of his characters did (Lazurus Long). While Heinlein may have believed it, at least one writer -- and I'll remember his name eventually -- said that when he brought up his mathematical illiteracy because of that quote Heinlein reassured him he was still a fine person anyway Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
I <heart> Friday.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Me too Lisa.
Friday was the first Heinlein book I ever read. I really identified with her feelings of being less than human. And the fact that she was bi was amazing to me as I don't recall ever reading about a bisexual character before then.
Pix
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
I think Friday is an allegory, in a way. Certainly that's not all the book is, but it's also a pretty amazing allegory of the GLBT experience.
One day, you have friends and a home, and the next day, simply because someone finds something out about you, you lose everything and everyone.
There's another book that works as an allegory in the same way, by W.H.Thompson. It's called Sideshow. A mutation causes some people to be telepaths, and the government decides to label telepaths as ipso facto insane, and declares them wards of the state, with no rights. Just for being telepaths.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Exactly, Lisa. But more than that. She had become convinced that, since she was an AP, she wasn't human. Just a thing created in a lab.
The same way so many of us (including me, at the age I read Friday) became convinced that we weren't deserving of the happiness others got. Just because we're queer.
Pix
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
That's an interesting side of Friday that I never saw before!
Chris, during the DOMWFF phase of Heinlein's career, there's always some dirty old man (Jubal, Lazurus Long, etc.) who spouts off diatribes (that seem to agree with those of all the other DOM) and has sex with lots of beautiful young women. I suppose I just made the leap to thinking those men each represent RAH himself, and the diatribes are his diatribes. Do you think that's not valid?
I'm glad to hear that he didn't try to tell someone to their face that they weren't a human being because they didn't understand higher math. I still would suspect that privately he believed in his diatribes, even if in a somewhat less exaggerated form. I wonder if he would have wanted his daughter to marry one, you know? Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I loved Friday at first. And then it rambled. And rambled. And rambled.
I look back on it now as an amazing character. And unmet potential. Too bad.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I think I've read The Way The Future Was. And I have read a lot of Golden Era scifi. I'm not saying that Heinlein was the only one there--just that he was one of the very best at a time when he was early enough to have thought of a lot of this stuff first.
I remember in one of my freshman math classes in college I came up with a very interesting theorem. I was quite pleased with myself, because I came up with it completely on my own. Unfortunately, some stupid guy had come up with it a couple hundred years ago . . .
(Maybe I'll dig out my old notebooks and see if I can recall which theorem it was . . . )
[ December 29, 2005, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: Icarus ]
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
I think it's foolish to attribute any opinion or attitude in a work of fiction to the fictionwriter. It may very well be true -- certainly many authors stick with certain themes and defining characteristics in many of their characters. OSC's people tend to value reasoning over action and have a strong sense of values. I don't think it's possible to be a main character in a Spider Robinson book and not love The Beatles, collect the blues, and have an obsession with good coffee. And so on...
Heinlein's people are definitely derived from him and many of the opinions stated by them have been echoed in Heinlein's interviews and essays. It wouldn't surprise me if he secretly (or not) looked down on people who didn't get mathematics. I just don't assume he did.
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