I just saw Munich. Pretty good movie. 4 stars out of 5. I'm really interested in what everyone thought about its portrayal of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Specifically, do you think the Palestinians have a legitimate claim to the land? Did they ever? What about their proclivity towards terrorism? How does our beloved President justify invading countries that "support terrorism" and at the same time invite Yasser Arrafat over for dinner? The last one was a little loaded, but just some thoughts.
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
Also, what do you think about same sex marriage? The death penalty? What about abortion? Should people eat more shellfish? Is the flat tax a good idea? Are we too hard on newbies? Dobies, yay or nay? Is the OSCs living room? And if it is, how careful should we be in discussing him, his views, his ideas, and his website designs?
Posted by Ryan Hart (Member # 5513) on :
Gracious Bob, I've been gone for a while. Didn't know I was beating a dead horse. For the non-cynics, I really am interested.
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
Ryan, you offer us none of your own views (beyond that you think Arafat was a terrorist) and insist on opening up a topic that everyone knows is going to be passionate and heated. What did you expect?
Ryan: "Please bare you soul for my amusement while I offer you nothing in return."
Hatrack Community: "Oh! Oh! Me first!"
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
Can I play? <anticipatory grin>
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
quote: Ryan, you offer us none of your own views (beyond that you think Arafat was a terrorist) and insist on opening up a topic that everyone knows is going to be passionate and heated. What did you expect?
Bob, I think he expected to be able to open a topic without ridicule and condescension.
Personally, I think that by offering none of his own views, he allows this to begin in a more open manner than simply stating his views and allowing people to support or rebut his opinions.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
I don't understand why they feel like they need terrorism to get their goals done. Israel is a democracy, have the Palestineans that are Israeli citizens considered having large families to gain a larger voting population in a generation or two?
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Y'know, had the Palistinians pushed for it, in 1948 instead they could've gotten Israel to be both Palistine and Israel and possibly outvoted the Israeli's in 2 generations. Shortsighted I geuss.
As for a claim to the land, yes they had a claim and were given that land that they were a majority in back in 1948. However THEY REFUSED that land and hoped quite greedily to get all of it. It like when a friend of mine tried to take my colonies in Civ4, he grabbed my colonies only for me to grab ALL of his and mine back in return.
Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bob the Lawyer: Also, what do you think about same sex marriage? The death penalty? What about abortion? Should people eat more shellfish? Is the flat tax a good idea? Are we too hard on newbies? Dobies, yay or nay? Is the OSCs living room? And if it is, how careful should we be in discussing him, his views, his ideas, and his website designs?
Yes, yes, no, no, yes, no, no (nay), yes, and not neccessarily cautious, rather with tact and respect.
That about cover it for you Bob?
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
quote:Also, what do you think about same sex marriage? The death penalty? What about abortion? Should people eat more shellfish? Is the flat tax a good idea? Are we too hard on newbies? Dobies, yay or nay? Is the OSCs living room? And if it is, how careful should we be in discussing him, his views, his ideas, and his website designs?
1) Not for me, thanks. Others feel free though . 2) Generally, no, but don't feel strongly about it. 3) Don't like them, but neither do I think they should be illegal. 4) If they like the taste, sure! 5) It sounds like a rather BAD idea actually. 6) Sometimes 7) I think everyone should be allowed to do one Dobie in their hatrack career. After you use it, its gone. 8) No, but it is his website. 9) With respect, not reverance.
As for the topic at hand, I won't pretend to know enough to debate the issue intelligently. Pretty much the only time I do argue one side of the issue is when someone makes a statement endorsing the other side completely, without admitting that the situation is more complicated than that.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stephan: I don't understand why they feel like they need terrorism to get their goals done. Israel is a democracy, have the Palestineans that are Israeli citizens considered having large families to gain a larger voting population in a generation or two?
We'll never let that happen, you realize. Israel may be a democracy, but it's also a Jewish state. Eventually, we'll simply have to disallow any party that doesn't accept that Israel is and will always be a Jewish state.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Architraz Warden:
quote:Originally posted by Bob the Lawyer: Also, what do you think about same sex marriage? The death penalty? What about abortion? Should people eat more shellfish? Is the flat tax a good idea? Are we too hard on newbies? Dobies, yay or nay? Is the OSCs living room? And if it is, how careful should we be in discussing him, his views, his ideas, and his website designs?
Yes, yes, no, no, yes, no, no (nay), yes, and not neccessarily cautious, rather with tact and respect.
That about cover it for you Bob?
You're for the Flat Tax? Ick.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
MMMM, popcorn.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by starLisa: ]We'll never let that happen, you realize. Israel may be a democracy, but it's also a Jewish state. Eventually, we'll simply have to disallow any party that doesn't accept that Israel is and will always be a Jewish state.
The problem with that is Israel would lose a lot of support from other nations if it started cracking down on peaceful citizens. Not that I see Palestineans giving up terrorism completely in the near future anyways.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: Israel is a democracy, have the Palestineans that are Israeli citizens considered having large families to gain a larger voting population in a generation or two?
Hey, starLisa, you want to give the Palestinians the vote? Stephan thinks it's a good idea.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
Hey Tom, they actually have it. And they've used it to elect representatives to Knesset that support the loony in Iran when he says Israel should be wiped out.
A few such critters can be tolerated. Too many, and things will change.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by starLisa: Hey Tom, they actually have it. And they've used it to elect representatives to Knesset that support the loony in Iran when he says Israel should be wiped out.
A few such critters can be tolerated. Too many, and things will change.
So do you forsee Israel dropping democracy as Americans know it one day?
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
It's already not a democracy as Americans know it.
Posted by Ryan Hart (Member # 5513) on :
I think that the Jews have a right to the entire country, West Bank and Gaza included. Unfortunately, I don't think they will be able to reach peace with that. The Palestinians could have had East Jerusalem, Gaza, and the West Bank, but they refused it in 1948 and in my opinion when they did that they forfeited the right to the land.
At the same time, the Palestinians need a homeland just like the Jews do. The Arabs don't wnat them. If they did the PLO wouldn't have been kicked out of Jordan and then Lebanon. The only reason the Arabs have helped the Palestinians is because they hate the Jews most of all.
Longterm Solution: Hopefully the Isrealis will take the high road and allow a Palestinian state in Gaza and part of the West Bank.
Short Term Solution: This is harder. Mahmoud Abbas can't control Hamas. Fatah (the ruling PLO faction) has split and two and it is concievable that the political wing of Hamas will have a majority or at least a strong minority. The Palestinians as a whole need to reject terrorism and dedicate themselves to politics. The world knows their plight now. After Sharon's pullout, the ball is in the PLO's court. They need to make the next overture.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ryan Hart:
Longterm Solution: Hopefully the Isrealis will take the high road and allow a Palestinian state in Gaza and part of the West Bank.
Would never work. The Palestinean terrorists want the Jews out of all of Israel.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by starLisa: Can I play? <anticipatory grin>
Not until you are through ranting on your other thread. I wouldn't want your gaskets to blow.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
Wah...
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
Israel needs Moshe Feiglin. He's the first person who isn't the same-old, same-old.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I always find it curious, statements like your last loaded one. Support for terrorism was never the sole reason used to justify invading a foreign country, for one thing. For another thing, using that as a partial reason to invade one nation does not necessarily mean we should invade all nations that support terrorism of any kind, right this very minute.
I don't like litterbugs, and I stop to pick up litter where I see it...unless I'm driving and it's on the interstate, or I'm in a hurry, or something. I don't have to don cape and cowl and become a Litter Avenger of the Night full-time.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
You should! And with a cool black cape and mask!
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
And a trash stick with a nail sticking out of the end of it!
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Who is the mysterious caped-and-cowled Litter Avenger? And why is he never seen in the same place as famous billionaire playboy Rakeesh? Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Oooh, a cowl? Nice touch!
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:I agree. Whoever that Litter Avenger may be, he's certainly got incredible fashion sense combined with masculine sexiness!
-Rakeesh
Posted by Ryan Hart (Member # 5513) on :
Stephan- Really? I think that a Palestinian state would damage the terrorist's base. They wouldn't enjoy so much popular support. Admittedly there would be some holdouts, but the international community would lean heavily on those people.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Excuse me. We're trying to derail a thread here -- do you mind?!?
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:Ryan, you offer us none of your own views (beyond that you think Arafat was a terrorist) and insist on opening up a topic that everyone knows is going to be passionate and heated.
Yes, let's stick to discussing boring, unimportant topics that nobody cares about, and attack anyone who wants to do otherwise. That way nobody will ever get mad and Hatrack will be a wonderfully uniform and dull place.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Not as long as we can mock people who are mocking others. And then mock the people doing that, too.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Can we mock the people mocking the people who are mocking the people mocking others?
*head asplode*
Posted by Ryan Hart (Member # 5513) on :
I tried so hard...
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Therefore you clearly cannot choose the wine in front of me.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Now turn away or I shall taunt you a second time!
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ryan Hart: Stephan- Really? I think that a Palestinian state would damage the terrorist's base. They wouldn't enjoy so much popular support. Admittedly there would be some holdouts, but the international community would lean heavily on those people.
If the terrorists needed and had that much support of the people wouldn't they have an army instead of lone idiots strapping bombs to themselves?
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
quote: If the terrorists needed and had that much support of the people wouldn't they have an army instead of lone idiots strapping bombs to themselves?
They're intelligent enough to know that a conventional army has no hope of winning against the combined military might of a U.S. led coalition.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by TheHumanTarget: [QUOTE]They're intelligent enough to know that a conventional army has no hope of winning against the combined military might of a U.S. led coalition.
And 40 years of terrorists not getting anything accomplished gives them hope?
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:*head asplode*
Duck! Take cover! Snipers on the roof! They took out the commander!
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
quote: And 40 years of terrorists not getting anything accomplished gives them hope?
It's not about hope, it's about continuing the fight. The fight itself has become the purpose.
A conventional war would destroy them, thus ending the battle and laying bear the truth that their actions have accomplished nothing.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stephan:
quote:Originally posted by TheHumanTarget: [QUOTE]They're intelligent enough to know that a conventional army has no hope of winning against the combined military might of a U.S. led coalition.
And 40 years of terrorists not getting anything accomplished gives them hope?
Um... not getting anything accomplished? Are you serious? It got them the Palestinian authority. It got them Gaza. It got them an Israeli populace which is so weary of the constant conflict that they're on the verge of giving up.
They invented hijacking airplanes. They've gotten the world so inured to their atrocities that it's not even news any more unless there are Americans who die.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by TheHumanTarget:
quote: And 40 years of terrorists not getting anything accomplished gives them hope?
It's not about hope, it's about continuing the fight. The fight itself has become the purpose.
It's very much about hope. Hope is the thing that motivates them. And every time we give them hope, we cause them to commit more atrocities.
Read this essay by Moshe Feiglin. He's spot-on.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
quote:They've gotten the world so inured to their atrocities that it's not even news any more unless there are Americans who die.
Of course, because no news organization gave any coverage whatsoever to the attacks in Madrid or London, or any of the attacks in Israel. I only know about them because I'm psychic.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
Pardon me. I should have said "Westerners". Better? And no, you don't know about the vast majority of attacks in Israel. Do you want me to just list the ones over the past week?
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Verily, the world certainly is inured to murderous attacks on Israeli civilians.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:And no, you don't know about the vast majority of attacks in Israel. Do you want me to just list the ones over the past week?
Please do, with links. I bet I can find coverage of them in the American media.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
There's coverage and there's coverage, Dagonee. If I listened to CNN long enough, I expect I would end up just as well informed if I listened to NPR.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I bet I could find at least as much coverage as one can find on assorted deaths due to terrorism, mass violence, and disaster in other places in the world over the same week .
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
quote:Verily, the world certainly is inured to murderous attacks on Israeli civilians.
So show me where I ever disputed that.
I don't deny that when regions get that much violence, it can cease to feel like news when violence happens there again. We hear about violence in relatively safe places, and we're shocked. We hear about violence in places like Israel or Iraq, where violence happens daily, and it all starts to feel like "so what else is new" when they announce that an attack has taken place. I agree that it's true that that happens, and I agree that it's bad that it happens.
That's not the part I took exception to. The part I took exception to was the insinuation that we only care about violence if Americans are directly affected. I found that accusation hateful and offensive.
Posted by Ryan Hart (Member # 5513) on :
America doubtlessley cares more about its own citizens. America wouldn't take serious action against terrorism until there was a major terrorist atack on its own soil. If America truly cared about ending the violence in Israel or even Darfur, then there would have been serious military action.
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