quote:Simmons released the findings as he prepares to introduce legislation that would make driving without a license an offense punishable by incarceration in Maryland. In the District and Virginia, driving without a license can land a motorist in jail.
Simmons said the legislation does not target any group. But an advocate for the rights of illegal immigrants said the legislation, if passed, would harm them.
The question about licensing (versus punishment) is raised later in the article. The proposed new legislation would give out jail time for driving without a license.
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
without having read the link...
I absolutely agree that unlicensed drivers need to be targeted and gotten off the road. I don't know if I necessarily agree with jail time as an appropriate punishment; I would hope they're using that as a "three strikes" penalty or something further down the line.
As for undocumented immigrants - it seems like this is becoming a bigger problem all the time. I don't understand why it's such a big deal for them to not become documented and legally present, but since I have no first-hand exposure, I've never bothered to look up any information about it either.
I don't know what "rights" these advocates think that their clients should have when they're in the country illegally. Driving isn't a "right" for American citizens, so why should it be for an undocumented immigrant?
edit to add: ISTR that when I applied for my drivers license, I was required to provide my birth certificate and a valid Social Security card along with proof of residency. Can you get a valid SSN if you're not a citizen or authorized resident?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Goody, it depends on the state, IIRC. Used to be possible in CA, but is no longer.
I think our current immigration laws are unrealistic. Illegal immigrants are a fact of life in SoCal, and I would MUCH rather have them driving with a legal license (and all that implies) than have them driving without.
And expecting them to use public transportation . . . well, maybe when said transportation actually goes everywhere they need to work, on a regular and consistent basis . . .
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
It isn't really a matter of "expecting" them to ride buses....it is a matter of them being here illegally, so they don't have a "right" to expect any sort of transportation to anywhere.
Not that I agree with that completely, just clarifying. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Ah. So they should stay in their home country where they cannot find a job? Let their kids starve?
Illegal aliens work -- work HARD, in most cases. They contribute to our economy quite a bit. So I think they have quite a few rights.
Posted by smitty (Member # 8855) on :
I think they should be allowed in the country, but if they want any of the privledges that come with being a citizen (ie a drivers license) they should become a citizen. Just make becoming a citizen easier, I guess. I'm sure that's a lot easier said than done.
I think placing unlicensed drivers in jail is one of the dumbest ideas I've heard of - it's not like our jails around here aren't overcrowded with drug dealers / users. I mean, if they keep doing it, I suppose you have to do something, but incarceration isn't the answer for everything.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
So someone with a student visa should not be allowed to drive?
What about legal resident aliens who have been here for years?
Posted by smitty (Member # 8855) on :
Well, students and legal residents are here legally - I worded that stupidly, and apologize - people who are here legally should of course have access to those privledges
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
So illegal aliens shouldn't be licensed, but also should not be jailed? What sort of enforcement should there be, then?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I don't think we should do anything to further harm illegal immigrants (who have enough problems already) until we clean up our asylum process and up our immigration quotas.
Posted by smitty (Member # 8855) on :
fines! I like fines! I don't have the answers, but I'm saying jail time isn't a good answer to relatively small offences. I'm not coming down against illegal aliens, I'm actually trying to say that it should be easier for them to become legal. I'm not faulting people for trying to make a better life for themselves and their families.
Of course, my views are going to be colored by my neck of the woods, which is in general anti-immigration. Don't believe in those views myself, but I'm sure it influences me a little.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Fines are going to be impossible to enforce. Illegal immigrants often have changeable addresses and no other contact information.
And kq, I entirely agree with you. My point is that even if one did not, taking away licenses doesn't help the situation at all. And enforcement is all-but-impossible.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote: I'm not coming down against illegal aliens, I'm actually trying to say that it should be easier for them to become legal. I'm not faulting people for trying to make a better life for themselves and their families.
Of course, my views are going to be colored by my neck of the woods, which is in general anti-immigration. Don't believe in those views myself, but I'm sure it influences me a little.
Well, maybe you should hang out with more illegal, and legal, immigrants. When you've met enough people who came here, legally or not, to escape disease, horrible living conditions, poverty, and social injustice at home, giving up everything they knew for the hope of a better life for their children at any cost to themselves, it colors your views a bit, too.
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
How many laws did they intend on breaking when they came here illegally?
Even if you give them a license the're still going to drive without insurance.
Do their naturalized children sign up for selective service when they turn 18?
Do they obey the zoning laws for single family dwellings?
Do they obey the laws against dumping hazardous waste? Where do they put their used motor oil?
How did they renew their car registration with it belching smoke like that? Do the brakes even work?
Heck, they don't even know we have laws here.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
skillery, that's offensive.
Posted by smitty (Member # 8855) on :
kq, I was saying I liked people being able to immigrate! I think it's a dang good thing, and recognize MY ancestors (well, 3/4 of them) immigrated from somewhere. And I do know some immigrants (around here, most of them work in restaurants). One lives across from my parents. I went to a college that had a large % of foreign nationals (most of them stayed in the states). My actual point should be that it should be EASIER for people to do it legally.
Rivka, I know fines are impossible. #1, you have to find them, and #2, it's hard to get blood from a turnip.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I know, smitty. I'm just saying that if you want to change the prejudices you're colored by, it's not too hard to do.
And I agree with you-- it SHOULD be easier. But it's not, and in the current climate, it's not going to be for a long time. So what do we do in the mean time?
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
Oh, and my illegal neighbors across the street didn't know it was illegal to set up a paint booth and start painting cars in their back yard.
They didn't even bother to get a building permit.
Posted by smitty (Member # 8855) on :
Skillery - My mom and dad's neighbors didn't know it was illgal to dump raw sewage into the creek... oh, and by the way, the only place THOSE neighbors immigrated from was Kentucky. It's not really valid to say illegals don't know/care about laws because I know plenty of citizens that don't know/care
kq, it's not as easy as you think.
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
But when a citizen doesn't know/care he gets to pay a fine or spend some time in jail.
Posted by smitty (Member # 8855) on :
well, ignorance of the law is not an excuse, we all know that...
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
But illegal immigrants get off scott-free.
I was guilty of a parking violation in England this past summer. I was parked on the shoulder, but there was a zig zag line painted on the curb, meaning that I was parked in the approach to a crosswalk. At the time I didn't know what the zig zag line meant. The officer said that the fine would be 200 pounds. When I handed her my state-side driver's license, she was disappointed to discover that I wasn't English. The paperwork required to extract a fine from a non-citizen was not worth her trouble so she let me go with a warning.
Imagine trying to extract a fine from somebody with no I.D. at all.
So give them a driver's license. Is the name real? Is the address real? When they fail to pay the fine where do you send the court summons?
Posted by WntrMute (Member # 7556) on :
1. People here on visas are, by definition, not illegal aliens, and thus have the ability to get drivers licences. Any argument trying to tie illegal aliens to legal immigrants and legal foreign residents is deliberately dishonest.
2. Smugglers are not cheap, and they are not running a charity but a very profitable business. This business is frequently financed by conditions equal to or worse than slavery. Turning a blind eye to this modern slave trade in the name of 'humanity' is hypocritical in the extreme. Working to further facilitate it is Evil. Giving illegal aliens the privileges of citizenship in the name of 'rights' is facilitation. If you want to change immigration policy to allow more people to come in, then work for that. If you want to change the visa program to allow more unskilled labor to come in, then work for that. Illegals are not here legally and must be deported, albeit in a human and orderly fashion. Our border security has to be changed from the pathetic joke that it is now to something that actually secures the border. That means stopping the slave trade that currently passes through the porous boundary we have now.
3. Companies and individuals who knowingly exploit illegal labor, instead of hiring local unskilled workers (who cost much, much more), need to be fined. Painfully fined. Why am I paying people who can work unemployment and welfare benefits, while illegal aliens get jobs, frequently paying no taxes. That hurts me twice: paying someone to not work, while the taxes that should be generated by the work aren't collected.
4. The world is a sucky place. It has always been a sucky place. It will always be a sucky place. We cannot fix the world, and we certainly aren't ever going to fix it by letting everyone come here.
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
quote:Originally posted by WntrMute: 4. The world is a sucky place. It has always been a sucky place. It will always be a sucky place. We cannot fix the world, and we certainly aren't ever going to fix it by letting everyone come here.
That's a cop-out answer. Of course the world will never be perfect, but we can certainly try to make it better.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
It is a silly question, offer them licences and they will not get them, they need to fly below radar.
So what a waste of legislative discussion. Illegal aliens need to be expelled from the country, they are illegal for God's sake.
BC
Posted by littlemissattitude (Member # 4514) on :
Skillery, to echo KQ, what you've said is very offensive. Not to mention that your statements are ignorant in the extreme.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
BC, your ignorance is staggering...or it would be, if it were not you....
They can, and do, get licences in several states as it stands now. I may not agree with those policies, but at least I don't presume to declare that I know they won't bother gettng licences.
Most of the ones who can drive probably would, because if a state allows them to be licenced regardless of immigration status it would make their lives easier, and they would have less of a problem if they are pulled over as they could register and insure their cars.
A lot of them only get caught when pulled over driving illegally.
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
Or get into an accident.
My mother and I were broadsided Christmas Eve 2001. We were turning left into a parking lot, some yahoo Mexican with a woman and an unsecured 2 year old in the back seat came flying up a turn lane doing about 60 miles an hour. The posted limit for that road is 30, and teh turn lane was expressly designated to turn into the parking lot we were turning into.
My mother, the driver, was thrown out of her seat - and out of her belt - across the passenger compartment and into my lap. I smacked my head against the side window, my arm into the door, plus ended up with over 250 pounds of mom aiding my sideways motion. Our vehicle was pushed into a third car which fortunately for them sustained property damage but no personal injury. The hotshot driver and his adult passenger apparently had no injuries, the child was thrown into the backside of the front seats and broke a leg.
The driver couldn't come up with a license at the scene. His adult passenger couldn't come up with a licence. At some point after I'd been loaded into an ambulance he was able to come up with some form of identification, but not a DL, because one of the tickets issues was "driving without a license". He never showed up for three traffic court appointments (my mother was present at all of them with the anticipation of having to refute any testimony he would attempt to give). His insurance (or at least the insurance whose information he provided) filed for a judgment of no liability because his policy specifically excluded automotive claims. In other words, it wasn't a car insurance policy he provided. No idea what kind of insurance it actually was. I have a copy someplace because the policy was an exhibit to the court complaint. That case got consolidated with Mom's insurance court claim for non-insured motorist judgment, and the hotshot never showed up for depositions or for the mediation.
But for some idiotic reason, the mediators sided with the hotshot. Never mind that the ticketing police officer testified that he was easily doing double the main road speed limit in a restricted lane. Never mind the physical evidence of impact locations and ricochet patterns. And never mind the fact that his own attorney acknowledged that "I have never spoken to the guy and for all I know he skipped the country, he isn't a US citizen". He was adjudicated as "not responsible" and we got stuck paying the bills.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
smitty, I never said it was easy. But shouldn't the citizens of the richest country of the world show a little more support for social equality, here and elsewhere, than we do?
Posted by jennabean (Member # 8590) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan:
quote:Originally posted by WntrMute: 4. The world is a sucky place. It has always been a sucky place. It will always be a sucky place. We cannot fix the world, and we certainly aren't ever going to fix it by letting everyone come here.
That's a cop-out answer. Of course the world will never be perfect, but we can certainly try to make it better.
I think the key part of that statement was "we aren't going to fix it by letting everyone come here." That's true, not a cop-out. It would be much better to improve other parts of the world so that lifestyles elsewhere are equal to those in the US. Since that is proving rather difficult, the US can only allow so many people to legally immigrate and maintain its social structure.
Also, I've managed the payroll for several small businesses all owned by legal immigrants who prefer employing other immigrants. They are mostly from Hispanic countries-- Ecuador, El Salvador, Mexico, Colombia, etc. They said they had no problems coming over. Some were even pursuing citizenship, and the paperwork and documentation didn't seem to be a huge problem. We did have to decline supporting one man's visa, but at least he was looking to be in the States legally! I think the main problem is border security and the volume of people wanting to enter the States that way, because in places like California and Texas (versus Hawaii), I'm sure it is hell to apply for visas and such when you can just hop the fence, so to speak.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
quote: Illegal aliens need to be expelled from the country, they are illegal for God's sake.
Emphasis added so we can all enjoy some much needed irony today.
Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
When I got my first driver's license, I had to provide a copy of my social security card for identification. Maybe that's not the case for some states. But if illegal immigrants are allowed driver's licenses, will that requirement be voided in that case? What would stop somebody who's not an illegal alien to claim that they are in order to get a fake ID under a different name?
I think the solution is to improve the immigration and asylum processes (as others have already said) to make it easier to be here legally, either as a citizen or a non-citizen resident, or on a work visa, or whatever. I also agree that businesses who are employing illegal immigrants to pay less than minimum wages need to be punished for that, preferably with fines.
--Enigmatic
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:Should states give drivers licenses to illegal aliens?
Of course they should. Stop thinking with your wounded outrage, and your sense of what should be reserved for you as one of God's chosen ones, and think instead of the practicality. If you don't give them drivers' licenses, they will drive without insurance, and that will raise costs for all of us.
(And skillery really ought to know better, given that we have been down this road before. Aliens can and do get drivers' licenses here, and they get insurance too. Why? For the same reason as anybody else does. And I'm talking from personal knowledge here, not sweeping jingoistic hysteria coupled with ignorant supposition.)
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
quote:what you've said is very offensive
Offensive to our system that thrives on the blood and sweat of our guest laborers.
To whom would you sell your junky old car if we didn't have lower-class consumers. You'd have to pay somebody to haul it away, or leave it parked in your yard.
Forget about upgrading to a better home without a lower class to buy your old home.
Our society creates junk faster than the lower class can buy it up. Rather than cutting back on the junk-making, it's easier to bring in more lower-class consumers.
The bank that gave my illegal neighbors their home loan realizes that we must have a lower class for our economy to function, else what would they do with all their home mortgage foreclosures.
The big box stores know they can't compete without underpaid, lower-class employees. They also know that lower-class people stocking their first homes from scratch make the best consumers of retail goods.
Grocery prices would go through the ceiling without lower-class farm workers.
I must conclude that our guests are here by our invitation. Unfortunately, at the same time we've declared them outlaws, creating a class of people upon whom the law has no claim. They have no name or number or address.
I say open the borders, let them in, assign them a number, take their photograph, record their name, and require them to notify the government when their mailing address changes. Just like the rest of us.
Posted by Ryan Hart (Member # 5513) on :
NO! Illegal immigrants should be afraid to raise their head. The operative word in illegal immigration is ILLEGAL. They are criminals.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Yes, god forbid arbitrary and imaginary lines in the dirt should force otherwise hardworking, decent people to be criminals.
I'm with skillery's last post. Document them, and let them in.
-Bok
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I don't know, I think I am somewhere in the middle on this one. I think if they are here illegally then they should be deported, but I know my ancestors immigrated here.
Of course they did it legally....
Here is the thing about using economics as a sole justification for either extreme...valid points are on both sides.
If there were no illegal immigrant work force then wages will have to rise...it is basic economics. That will raise prices....but then most of us at the lower end of the food chain would be making more than we make right now, so it offsets, at least to some degree.
Sometimes it takes a while for the forces to balance out, like what is happening here in FL right now....wages have not risen, but the COL (particularly housing) has increased almost 200% in the past 5 years.
In some areas more. :|
But pure economic theory isn't the whole story.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
For those that are already here and are productive members of society....give them licenses, make them citizens over time. Make them pay taxes, give them the benefits of our crappy healthcare system, and make it so their illegal status can't hurt legal citizens a la Goody Scrivener's story.
For those that still want to come over, rework the immigration code for guest visas to facilitate guest worker programs that document everyone who comes in and send them back when the work is done. Increase border security and keep out illegals, but give them hope for a different and better LEGAL immigration process.
Bok -
Calling the US/Mexican border an arbitraty and imaginary line is a little silly. People have been fighting and dying to protect and extend artificial lines in the dirt for a few thousand years. And fairly hardcore in America for the last three hundred. Americans were raised to care about lines in the dirt, you can't wave your hand and change that, and I'm not totally sure you should. Unless you're advocating the annexation of Mexico.
Like it or not, those lines are set in stone to Americans, and the majority of us want that line defended. The people on the other side of that line need to make it better on that side, not give up on their own country to head here.
What hope is there for the future of Mexico if every Mexican forsakes his own country in order to make his life better in America, with no intention of ever returning? It's in the best interests of everyone if we stop looking at America as a breadbasket and Mexico as a wasteland, and start looking at Mexico as a land in need, and America as a helping hand.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
If there weren't illegals, wages would rise, but demand would go down to pay those wages, or more likely, a lobby would form to apply pressure to lower the minimum wage for those jobs commonly held by illegal or migrant workers, Kwea.
Lyr, fair enough... Ultimately they are completely arbitrary lines that should be erased at the earliest convenience, IMO.
As for your last paragraph, it attacks a strawman that is not borne out by the actual behaviors of illegal and migrant workers. They often DO go back, and even if _they_ don't, their money very definitely does.
If you want to maybe understand my position a bit more, consider that I see the US and Mexico as states, like California, or Indiana. We have free flow of labor between these boundaries, all because of essentially a contract between the states (and the federal government). I say we open up that contract to illegals, over time.
-Bok
Posted by smitty (Member # 8855) on :
And then we can finally begin our evil plan to make Mexico and Canada part of the US...
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:I absolutely agree that unlicensed drivers need to be targeted and gotten off the road. I don't know if I necessarily agree with jail time as an appropriate punishment; I would hope they're using that as a "three strikes" penalty or something further down the line.
I'm skipping right over the illegal immigration question and speaking to the idea of jail time for driving while unlicensed.
Any offense or violation must, ultimately, carry the risk of jail time or it is simply unenforceable. This applies to building code violations and driving while unlicensed. In many cases, the jail time is not for the offense itself, but for either failure to pay fines or failure to comply with court orders to correct a violation.
If we think it's worth maintaining a system of licensing for drivers, then we must be willing to put at least some violators in jail at some point. Otherwise there's no point to having the licensing scheme.
Of course, jail should be much later in the process for non-dangerous offenses (not enough trees on your golf course or a mismatched brass door knocker in a historical district) than for public safety offenses (driving without a license or failing to maintain proper sewage facilities in an apartment house).
Where does driving without a license fall in that continuum? I think closer to the public danger end than the other. I'm not sure exactly where, though.
Posted by WntrMute (Member # 7556) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bokonon: If you want to maybe understand my position a bit more, consider that I see the US and Mexico as states, like California, or Indiana. We have free flow of labor between these boundaries, all because of essentially a contract between the states (and the federal government). I say we open up that contract to illegals, over time.
That is not how nations work. There would have to be about a gazillion things that would have to happen before that came close to being workable, not least of which would be a significant culture change in the more southerly areas vis-a-vis corruption.
Also, Canadians' heads would explode. *pooof* there they all go. Though the touques would cut down on the mess, somewhat.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Hey, this isn't an overnight thing; I know that. It's my end goal. In the short term, raising the quotas for nations that tend to have high illegal immigrant rates (and giving these new slots to currently illegal immigrants) would be a good start.
-Bok
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Bok -
quote: As for your last paragraph, it attacks a strawman that is not borne out by the actual behaviors of illegal and migrant workers. They often DO go back, and even if _they_ don't, their money very definitely does.
If you want to maybe understand my position a bit more, consider that I see the US and Mexico as states, like California, or Indiana. We have free flow of labor between these boundaries, all because of essentially a contract between the states (and the federal government). I say we open up that contract to illegals, over time.
Yes, their money does go back to help buy bread and pay the bills for their families. That's just getting by, that isn't making the country a better place. Giving them a life preserver is a lot different than building them a boat. You can't deny that millions are coming over here with the intention of STAYING and having nothing to do with Mexico, that much isn't a strawman, it's a fact of life the border patrol, census beureau, and immigration have been telling us about for years. This does nothing to help Mexico.
So if I understand you right, you think of North America as a nation, and Mexico, the US and Canada are all states within it, and we should have no borders, with a free flow of traffic and workers all throughout? Or do you mean to say the entire world should dissolve nationstates entirely for a world workforce with no boundaries? Regardless of what you mean, that kind of thing will happen about the same time the US Congress agrees to hand over sovereignty to the UN, which is basically the Fifth of Never.
A more achievable and realistic goal is a guest worker program to allow large numbers of Mexican labor into the US for periods of time and then making them go back to Mexico once they have earned that money. Legalizing it will give them higher wages, which will send more money back to Mexico where they can improve their lives. It means more American money leaving the country, but it's an investment in Mexico and a long term investment in America's economy.
At the very least, you have to admit I'm being much more reasonable and compromising than I have been in the past when arguing with you about this subject. Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
I thought there was already legislation in the works that makes it so anyone in this country illegal can be deported if arrested. (not law yet, but in the works)
Farmgirl
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
More to the point, I think of humanity as a nation... Or maybe not even, as I feel like nation has a lot more assumptions built in than I would like to appropriate. They have had their use (and have uses still), but as far as restriction of labor, I don't see that use anymore.
I like the guest-worker idea (for the short-term), but you will have to allow a lower than minimum wage rate, or else hiring these workers will be more expensive, factoring all costs (like transport and aded paperwork), than hiring Americans... And that means somehow getting Americans excited to do the minimum wage jobs (which will raise prices a bit), or raise wages to a point that is enticing, which will raise prices more.
-Bok
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Farmgirl -
There's a couple in the senate, and this one that just passed in the House before Christmas.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
You don't have to lower the minimum wage, you just add a provision that guest workers will have to make less than the minimum wage. You create a new minimum wage. The minimum wage argument for the average American worker in this nation should be about RAISING it, not lowering it. America is expensive enough as it is.
Create a separate wage for guest workers, and they've worried about their own transportation since illegal immigration began, that isn't a cost factor, or at least, it certainly isn't a new one. Yes, the price of some goods will go up, but they'll go up to where they should have been to begin with.
As for national boundaries. I sort of agree. I look forward to the day we have a more cohesive world government and what not, and become a race of Men, and not a race of Americans, Europeans, etc etc. But the only way to get there is to set realistic and reasonable short term goals that lead towards a long term finish.
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
Does the term "driving without a license" include just forgetting to bring your license with you? If I was pulled over while driving and had accidently left my license at home would I be arrested?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
In Michigan you get a ticket for driving without a license, but 9 times out of 10 you can get the ticket expunged if you bring your license to the police station with the ticket and tell them what happened.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:Of course they should. Stop thinking with your wounded outrage, and your sense of what should be reserved for you as one of God's chosen ones, and think instead of the practicality. If you don't give them drivers' licenses, they will drive without insurance, and that will raise costs for all of us.
I completely agree with Icarus' point here, and my personal feelings are that they should be required to be licensed and insured just like any other driver. Is it possible maybe to issue a different license or a license with a notation that the carrier is not a citizen? Then, the license can't be used for ID to register as a voter or do anything else that is restricted to legal citizens only. I also like the idea of punishment for a crime by an illegal immigrant being immediate deportation.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Does the term "driving without a license" include just forgetting to bring your license with you?
Not as it is used in the articles I've read about what's going on in Maryland. They're specifically talking about unlicensed drivers.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Here are some facts to consider.
1)Few illegal immigrants want to be illegal. However the standard wait time for getting your visa approved is counted in decades, not weeks. This is due to the erroneous fear over the past 50 years that wider immigration would cost current American's their jobs, combined with lingering racial fears. (Even today one respected radio news anchor still mentions with fear, "The Browning of America".
There is also the costs involved. Hundreds of non-refundable dollars go into each attempt at getting a visa. It doesn't cost hundreds to get the visa, but to apply for it, which is usually denied.
2) Once in the US an illegal alien finds work easilly, and gets paid, usually in cash. However, finding a room to live out of the weather, or starting a bank account, or doing just about anything requires them to show some form of ID. The preferred form of ID is The Driver's Liscence.
If they have no legal id in order to rent a room they are forced to use extra-legal means, that usually result in them paying big bucks for shoddy places.
If they have no legal id to get a bank account, then of course they will wire most of there income to Mexico. Keeping it on their person, or in their mattrees, will only result in them being robbed.
3) Nobody says that getting a drivers liscence is a "right". It is a responsibility. Driving is the benefit you recieve from taking that responsibility. Many illegal immigrants want to be responsible, take the tests, get the insurance, drive by our laws. However, in the name of defining people as "Crimminals" we are stopping them from being responsible.
Guess what. If the needs of their families require them to drive to a distant factory to pluck chickens, they will do the benefit without taking the responsibility, not because they don't care, but because they are not allowed to.
4) Goody, if that idiot who hit your car would have had a driver's liscence, then there is a better chance the police would have gotten a good address and auto insurance on him.
My wife had a similar experience, being hit by an idiot with no insurance and no liscence. He was not an immigrant, just a guy who decided he'd rather spend his check on beer than on insurance and licencing.
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
RRR - when the guy was ticketed (and when I was once ticketed for the same) it was because he couldn't provide legal proof at the scene of the accident. When I was nailed for DWL, I went to my court date with my license that clearly had been issued prior to the speeding ticket and that one got tossed out. Same for driving without insurance. if you can prove you had valid coverage prior to the incident, that ticket will be expunged.
To me, at least, bawsed on my prior experiences, "driving without a license" at least implies that you are in possession of valid authority and simply don't have proof on hand. "Unlicensed driver" would be someone who hasn't been granted the legal privelege of operating a motor vehicle (and yeah, I was there once too...)
But because this guy never showed up for any of his traffic court appearances, there's no real way of knowing if he had a valid license - and to be honest I have my doubts as to whether the identification he provided was even his own, largely because of his disappearance. In fact, the female passenger, who did immediately provide some form of ID without trying to avoid it as he did, also vanished.
(edit - when the heck did I pass 3K?)
Posted by WntrMute (Member # 7556) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_raven: Here are some facts to consider.
1)Few illegal immigrants want to be illegal. However the standard wait time for getting your visa approved is counted in decades, not weeks. This is due to the erroneous fear over the past 50 years that wider immigration would cost current American's their jobs, combined with lingering racial fears. (Even today one respected radio news anchor still mentions with fear, "The Browning of America".
There is also the costs involved. Hundreds of non-refundable dollars go into each attempt at getting a visa. It doesn't cost hundreds to get the visa, but to apply for it, which is usually denied.
Then why don't we fix THAT instead of just tossing the whole process to the dogs? The idea that ALL illegal aliens are here because they are perfect angels is, frankly, stupid. There are a lot of drug dealers, scam artists, and other various undesirables who also sneak across. I'm not saying end immigration. I'm not saying end work visas. I'm saying fix the root problem if getting here legally is that difficult. Getting and being here illegally needs to be much harder than getting here properly. If that's what is broke, that is what needs to get fixed. But at the same time, we cannot accept every single person who wants to move here all at once. And we certainly cannot allow ourselves to be invaded.
quote:Originally posted by Dan_raven: 4) Goody, if that idiot who hit your car would have had a driver's liscence, then there is a better chance the police would have gotten a good address and auto insurance on him.
My wife had a similar experience, being hit by an idiot with no insurance and no liscence. He was not an immigrant, just a guy who decided he'd rather spend his check on beer than on insurance and licencing.
Hold on, I thought the whole point was that giving them licences was going to make sure that they would have insurance, but now you are saying that even having the license is no guarrantee. So what's the point? Oh, yeah, I forgot. Surrendering without even token resistance or realistically looking at a logical solution to the larger problem.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
Only if we have a special bearu of investigation to keep track of them. Its members should all wear black suits have little flashy thingys.
"May I see your other license and registration please."
*runs*
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I also got hit by a truckful of what I can only assume were illegals. They politely suggested that we leave the police out of it, and after a quick count of them (4), me (1 16 year old boy), the number of beer cans in their truck bed (18+), and the number of baseball bats in their truck bed (1) I decided that was the thing to do.
I got their license plate, but to no avail. The whole shebang went on my parents' insurance and they were never heard from again.
Just thought I'd throw that in. I don't have any problem with immigrants, legal or otherwise. In fact, I think that most of the illegal ones would prefer to be legal but either don't know how or aren't able to make it happen. But that's as much our fault, for having an unnavigable system, as is it theirs for giving up too easily.
But by all means, license them and require insurance. No one, and I mean no one should be allowed behind the wheel of a car in this country without a driver's license and car insurance.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:Originally posted by WntrMute:
quote:Originally posted by Dan_raven: 4) Goody, if that idiot who hit your car would have had a driver's liscence, then there is a better chance the police would have gotten a good address and auto insurance on him.
My wife had a similar experience, being hit by an idiot with no insurance and no liscence. He was not an immigrant, just a guy who decided he'd rather spend his check on beer than on insurance and licencing.
Hold on, I thought the whole point was that giving them licences was going to make sure that they would have insurance, but now you are saying that even having the license is no guarrantee. So what's the point? Oh, yeah, I forgot. Surrendering without even token resistance or realistically looking at a logical solution to the larger problem.
No, the point is twofold: 1) All these bad things that people are saying illegal immigrants do are just as frequently done by people here legally. So the people who argue that we should do nothing at all that helps illegal aliens, and give, as a reason, all the crappy things that they've ever seen somebody they thought perhaps might be an illegal alien do, are demonstrating faulty reasoning. and 2) People with the ability to get licenses and insurance and other elements of the trappings of civil life in this country are likelier to buy into that life. Illegal aliens are good and bad people in pretty much exactly the same proportions as people born in the US, and so, just like most US Citizens will get insurance, obey laws, and fix what they break, most illegals would do it too, but some people advocate not giving them that possibility because, hey! They're illegal!
My point is simply that you punish American citizens more by not allowing illegal aliens to earn the privilege of driving legally in this country than you do illegal aliens.
Posted by DarkKnight (Member # 7536) on :
quote: My point is simply that you punish American citizens more by not allowing illegal aliens to earn the privilege of driving legally in this country than you do illegal aliens
I think the point most others are making is to make it easier for illegal aliens to become either legal citizens or legally documented workers first, then DL and so on second.
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
quote:My point is simply that you punish American citizens more by not allowing illegal aliens to earn the privilege of driving legally in this country than you do illegal aliens
I;m not sure if I'm parsing this right... it sounds to me like you're saying that prohibiting undocumented immigrants (the term "illegal aliens" sonds so Men In Black to me now LOL, thanks Alcon) from having a legal authority to drive is punishing Americans more than that same action is punishing those who are being prevened from driving. And I don't understand that logic. Clarfication would be appreciated.
In the context of the original post, the proposed law is intended to crack down on people driving without a valid license (as opposed to people driving without proof on their person when they get caught). And a particular group is claiming that they're beign unfairly targeted by this law. My question about that claim is how do they figure they're being unfairly targeted? Can they prove somehow that Hispanics (or any other ethnic group, for that matter, so as not to assume that the undocumented involved are automatically mexican or cuban or whatever) are being pulled over under the guise of a moving violation with the intent of sussing out invalid drivers? Is there some other way of proving their claim of being targeted by this law?
The issue of getting these people documented is, at least to me, completely separate and apart from the unlicensed driver issue. They were only tied together by this one group's claim of persecution.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:it sounds to me like you're saying that prohibiting undocumented immigrants (the term "illegal aliens" sonds so Men In Black to me now LOL, thanks Alcon) from having a legal authority to drive is punishing Americans more than that same action is punishing those who are being prevened from driving.
That is precisely what I'm saying. I believe the majority of people, whether immigrant or homegrown, are basically law-abiding--except when they feel that their survival affords them no other choice. Therefore, if they can get drivers' licenses and insurance, they will, for the same reasons that most American citizens do. But if they can't many will drive anyway. Public transportation is not a terribly realistic option for people who work in rural areas. So if "undocumented immigrants" cannot get licenses, you will simply have more uninsured motorists, and we will all pay the price for this in the form of higher insurance rates for the rest of us, and higher public health costs.
I understand that your preference is to "fix" the immigration system--if we could only figure out how. Make it more straightforward a process to become a citizen, make it impossible to hire illegals, make it impossible to sneak in, and make it so that we always catch all the illegals within our borders. But I, for one, can't think of a way to accomplish all that. In the meantime, I am a pragmatist.
I think a lot of our reactions to illegal immigration are knee-jerk. This is one example, but there are others.
I've heard it argued that illegal immigrant children should not receive free public education. They're here illegally! Why should we pay to educate them! Um, hello, you think it would somehow be better to perpetuate the underclass by keeping these children uneducated?
I heard of a recent proposal to "punish" countries from whom the most illegal immigrants come by reducing their quotas of legal immigrants. Hah! That'll show them! Um, wait. Because you're getting too many maids and farmhands, you're going to limit the number of economically "desireable" immigrants, like doctors and teachers and professors and programmers and scientists?
I think I grasp the sentiment behind each of these ideas, but in each case, the actual move is ill-conceived, and likely to hurt us here.
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
Icarus:
quote:Illegal aliens are good and bad people in pretty much exactly the same proportions as people born in the US
Last year the Salt Lake paper published a list of violent crimes for the year with photos and names of their perpetrators. More than 50% of the violent crimes were committed by people having hispanic names and faces. 20% were Pacific islanders. 10% black. The rest white. The list didn't say whether any of these people were illegal immigrants.
My cop friend says that more than 90% of the crime in Salt Lake is drug and alcohol related and that the majority of crimes are committed by ethnic minorities, with most of the hispanic offenders being illegal immigrants. Would you accuse my friend of being racially biased if you knew that his best friend is a black cop in the same department?
Perhaps the US is a magnet for criminals. Yes, I'd say that's true. Better to be a criminal where there's money and where you don't run the risk of getting shot while in the act. I don't think those criminals bother to apply for a visa.
So I still say take everybody's name, photo, and address.
Posted by WntrMute (Member # 7556) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: I think I grasp the sentiment behind each of these ideas, but in each case, the actual move is ill-conceived, and likely to hurt us here.
And so we should do nothing, except accept an invasion? Sure that may be 'pragmatic.' It was certainly 'pragmatic' for the French to capitulate to the Germans a few decades back. And it was certainly 'pragmatic' for them to comply with the Germans' various ethnic programs, too.
I disagree that 'pragmatism' is always appropriate. I just happen to think that we have something that is actually worth defending from those who would invade us.
Fixing the immigration laws is easy. Defending the border is a bit tougher, but with landmines and other forms of passive lethal defence that's not as difficult as you make it out to be, either. As for catching illegals who are here, it happens all the time. And they are let out on bail and then disappear. We should stop doing that. Also, there are few penalties for companies that knowingly hire illegals. Instead, those penalties should be draconian.
Also, I would make it clear to Mexico that they WILL stop actively supporting illegal immigration (as they currently do), as it is universally accepted as an act of war for one nation to send its citizens over an internationally recognized border into a neighboring country contrary to the laws of that country.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:but with landmines and other forms of passive lethal defence
Could you please let me know if you ever run for office?
I want to make sure not to accidently vote for anyone considering the use of landmines to stop desperate people from trying to find a better life.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
WntrMute--Define "Fixing the immigration laws". Would you make it easier for law abiding hard working people of Mexico to come into the US legally in order to find work, or would you make it harder for waves of Mexicans to come here and steal American jobs?
Just curious.
Many people are saying make immigration easier for the Mexican workers. However Unions and other workers groups are opposed to this, trying to defend the rights of their workers. After all, the Mexican who is getting $3/hr to do your gardening would love a non-union job at Chrysler for minimum wage. I can see the Anti-Nafta crowd already complaining about this capitulation of giving American Jobs to foreigners without having the companies go to the expense of moving the equipment.
Just a warning Wntr, your comparing latin-American workers with an invading army sounds a bit, um, racially motivated.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:It was certainly 'pragmatic' for the French to capitulate to the Germans a few decades back. And it was certainly 'pragmatic' for them to comply with the Germans' various ethnic programs, too.
Don't be asinine. First of all, your analogies are absurd. Second, I specifically said we should work to improve immigration law. What I have been arguing, however, is that we not foolishly take steps that hurt American citizens more than they hurt illegal immigrants.
quote:Defending the border is a bit tougher, but with landmines and other forms of passive lethal defence that's not as difficult as you make it out to be, either.
Almost everybody in the world recognizes the use of landmines as barbaric, in that long after the disputes that give rise to them are over, they kill innocent men, women, and children for no good reason.
Almost everybody except you, apparently.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
skillery, as far as I can tell, you are not addressing my major points. The only point that you address in your last post is my contention that illegal immigrants are normal people, and not morally deficient as a group. Okay, you disagree. You think they are. I have anecdotal evidence on my side, and you have anecdotal evidence on your side. (The plural of anecdote, I'm sure you know, is not data.) *shrug* I see no way for either of us to conclusively prove the point, so um, whatever.
EDIT to remove angry words.
Posted by WntrMute (Member # 7556) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_raven: WntrMute--Define "Fixing the immigration laws". Would you make it easier for law abiding hard working people of Mexico to come into the US legally in order to find work, or would you make it harder for waves of Mexicans to come here and steal American jobs?
If you had paid attention you would have noticed that I have said about three times that legal immigration and visa/work programs need to be made easier, and that I have no problem with increasing quotas. So that would pretty much mean the first answer, wouldn't it? Of course, it is so much more easy just to toss out a completely unfounded accusation of racism, since that takes far less effort than basic reading comprehension would.
Just a friendly answer to your helpful warning.
Posted by WntrMute (Member # 7556) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus:
quote:It was certainly 'pragmatic' for the French to capitulate to the Germans a few decades back. And it was certainly 'pragmatic' for them to comply with the Germans' various ethnic programs, too.
Don't be asinine. First of all, your analogies are absurd. Second, I specifically said we should work to improve immigration law. What I have been arguing, however, is that we not foolishly take steps that hurt American citizens more than they hurt illegal immigrants.
quote:Defending the border is a bit tougher, but with landmines and other forms of passive lethal defence that's not as difficult as you make it out to be, either.
Almost everybody in the world recognizes the use of landmines as barbaric, in that long after the disputes that give rise to them are over, they kill innocent men, women, and children for no good reason.
Almost everybody except you, apparently.
I'm sorry if I don't consider someone who is actively violating border laws as being 'innocent.' The concept of the 'innocent' criminal is one with which I am, admittedly, quite unfamiliar. I also do not think that our borders should be changing any time soon, so pretty much the only people that would be affected would be those that SHOULD be affected. You also do not understand modern munitions.
As for absurdity, I don't understand how you can even use that word without wincing at the sheer audacity of it. Oh, illegals are here: let's not deport them, instead let's give them stuff. Hey, guess what, people do drugs. Let's give them drugs! People drive drunk, let's have whiskey fountains along every highway!
HOW, and explain this to me slowly, since I'm obviously much stupider than you, and I ought to be thanking God for just the most sneeringly contemptuous insult from you, HOW does not only not punishing a crime, but officially sanctioning that crime PREVENT that crime?
But, you know what? I have absolutely no problem with letting anyone who can get here live here however they want. So long as it is in your neighborhood, and completely at your expense. Not mine, I'm tapped out.
Otherwise, the illegals have got to go and those companies and people who were exploiting them for profit need to be fined into the poor house and jailed. Ultimately, I think that Perdue, ADM, and Walmart can afford to hire citizens or documented workers.
Posted by GOT (Member # 8976) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lavalamp: Should states give drivers licenses to illegal aliens?
ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!
quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: ...it SHOULD be easier.
No, it should not be easier.
I think there should be a dual 10 meter concreate wall the entire length of the border with Mexico, with landmines and automataed machineguns between them... and lots of razor wire.
Citeznes in Mexico need to seriously do something about vicente fox... he activly promotes, advertises and aids illegals coming into the USA (he makes millions on the $$$ that gets sent back and on drug dough). His military not only help the illegals but drug trafficers as well. The border must be shut down, IMHO.
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
Icarus:
quote:I see no way for either of us to conclusively prove the point
Perhaps we can agree that without having our guests present credentials and fill out extensive paperwork there is no way of knowing exactly what sort of people are crossing the border, be they law-abiding or otherwise.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Planting landmines is one of the crimes Saddam Hussein is on trial for.
You know, after googling just the word LANDMINES, I could not find a single link in six pages that did not condemn their use or, in the case of news sites, address the ethical controversy they pose. They are an un-aimed weapon, ready to maim someone, with no regard for who it is. They don't kill their victims, they maim them and leave them alive. They also stick around for a very long time. Imagine a time when the present economic realities are different, and our border with Mexico more closely resembles our border with Canada; the landmines you want to plant would still be there.
And the penalty for illegal immigration is . . . death or dismemberment? Kind of a bit out of proportion, don't you think? We don't kill people who knock over liquor stores. Why are the illegal immigrants who keep this country running with their slave labor so much worse?
-o-
quote:Oh, illegals are here: let's not deport them, instead let's give them stuff.
I have not advocated giving illegals anything at all, except the gift of being easier to track, the gift of being able to pay for any harm they might do. The gift of a responsibility to obey the rest of the law, even when they are here illegally. You, on the other hand, wish to give them the gifts of anonymity and the ability to damage property without paying for it. Your comparison of enabling them to be responsible for their actions with collaborating with the Nazis is asinine, yes. The shoe fits; wear it.
Ever heard of Godwin's Law?
-o-
quote:. . . just the most sneeringly contemptuous insult from you, . . .
The most sneeringly contemptuous insult here is yours comparing me to the French capitulating to the Nazis. It is a morally repugnant comparison to make (in addition to being a thoroughly broken analogy) because of the atrocity that was the Nazi regime. Comparing illegal immigrants, most of whom are simply starving and looking for work, to the Nazis, borders on immoral. Your use of the French, specifically, is very telling, because they are the favorite whipping boy of knee-jerk reactionaries everywhere.
Will you next suggest I am gay?
Insulting? Pot, meet the kettle.
-o-
quote:HOW does not only not punishing a crime, but officially sanctioning that crime . . .
I have in no way sanctioned illegal immigration in this thread. The measures I argue for are not an official sanction. They are an expectation of responsibility. As long as illegal immigrants exist, I want them to be bound by our laws. You seem so desperate for them not to exist that you would pretend that they don't, and in effect let them live within our borders but outside of our laws.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:Perhaps we can agree that without having our guests present credentials and fill out extensive paperwork there is no way of knowing exactly what sort of people are crossing the border, be they law-abiding or otherwise.
Okay. Are you going to ask them, or shall I?
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
Icarus,
Now you're just being silly.
The government should ask the questions(with a little help from inter-agency computer file sharing):
"May I have your name and country of origin sir?"
"I'm sorry sir, but the name you provided does not appear in the database for your country of origin."
or
"I'm sorry sir, but there is a warrant for your arrest in your country of origin."
or
"I'm sorry sir, but your criminal record shows three prior arrests. Our local three-strikes law requires your immediate arrest and deportation."
or
"Your name and date of birth matches the database record. Now please provide me with a permanent address in the U.S. where you can be contacted...I'm sorry that address does not exist, I'm sorry but the hotel receptionist says you are not a registered guest, I'm sorry but the residents at that address have no knowledge of any person by your name..."
That's the same kind of check they do on me when I try to leave this country and enter another.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Are you proposing these questions be asked at the border, or at the DMV?
In any case, I mostly don't have a problem with any of that. Where it starts to unravel for me is in the interagency file sharing, but that's a much larger can of worms than I feel like jumping into right now.
(Are you actually proposing that we have a database somewhere that contains information of every person living in every other country? Because your first example sure seems like it.)
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
More likely, the idea would be to have every country have a database of their own people, which they would then open up to us so we could corroborate the claims of immigrants as to their country of origin, and get a basic history on them, and to check their criminal record.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:So long as it is in your neighborhood, and completely at your expense. Not mine, I'm tapped out.
Please provide a source that illegal aliens use more in public resources than they contribute via sales and other taxes.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Not to mention the way each of us profits from the low produce (and other) prices made possible only by their illegal, underpaid labor.
-o-
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: More likely, the idea would be to have every country have a database of their own people, which they would then open up to us so we could corroborate the claims of immigrants as to their country of origin, and get a basic history on them, and to check their criminal record.
Are you saying this is something you think other countries would go along with?
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Dictating Immigration policy to us, we must have too much money here, next it will be let us in or we are coming whether you like it or not. Then we get to prove our resolve by killing families, probably on TV. It would be nice if we did not have to do this all the time...
I will never understand why the rest of the America's cannot get their act together, they had a couple of centuries head start and still can't climb out of the third world. Free and Common Sockage!
BC
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:I will never understand why the rest of the America's cannot get their act together, they had a couple of centuries head start and still can't climb out of the third world.
Well, on the one hand, they were not so much colonized as exploited. Spain never really set out to colonize South American. They were there for the gold, all of which they took back to Europe with them. England always saw North America as a place to bleed off population pressure. The English came with an infrastructure; they had a system of government, and a tradition of rule of law. It is North America who has the (enormous) head start: a couple of thosand years or so of Western Civilization. South America does not have this to fall back on, nor do they have the even older aboriginal civilizations, since these were destroyed by the Spaniards. Compare South American politics to European politics 1800 years or so ago, and I'm not certain that South America is behind at all.
On the other hand, North Americans also had a whole continents worth of resources to exploit, once virtually all of the natives were killed. Those pesky South American natives are still there, getting in the way all the time. You can't torch a colmado without hitting two or three.
And then there's the fact that, once they got their own empty continent settled, with the aid of the infrastructure that England set up for them, North America went about deliberately undermining democracy in South America, using their military and economic might to defend governments that would do what the U.S. wanted, rather than what was best for their people, or, at least, what their people wanted.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Wntr--I did not toss out unfounded accusations of racism in regards to your changes to the emigration situation. I tossed them out for you comparing illegal immigrants to Nazi armies. Even then it was a warning, not an accusation.
The true question seems to be how bad is illegal immigration.
To some here, the answer is that breaking this law is tantamount to a life of crime and depravity. I hear that "Breaking one law makes them crimminals." I can only assume that this comes from people who have never gone over the speed limit, never fudged their taxes, never took home so much as a pen from thier place of employment.
To others it seems that this is a noble practice, fighting "the Man" to feed your family. It appears that these Mexicans have a choice of slow horrible death of starvation or breaking the law and coming to America.
Pragmatism was discussed earlier. What is more pragmatic, killing thousands of desparate workers via Mines and Guns, spending millions if not billions in increased border patrols and enforcement, or allowing these people to work in the US in jobs that no American is willing to do?
"They use up our medicine and our schools and our government facilities, that I pay for in taxes." Could we agree that a non-biased examination of the subject needs to be done to see what will use up more of your hard earned tax money--allowing them to use these neccesities as they pay for them with sales taxes etc, or the cost of deporting, catching, and stopping them all?
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
They are not facing a slow painful death of Starvation, that is utter nonsense. In fact most are on a cycle of work in the states for two or three years then go home and do nothing and live off the money for two or three years. If they were working back home to make it nice place instead of living in a cycle of subsistence and outlawry their country would be a better place.
There is no work that someone will not do, as a highschool kid I cleaned hoghouses, mowed, detassled and on and on. It is not a question of not finding workers it is an issue of price.
An influx of low end labor keeps labor prices down and helps lower cost for those hiring. However the cost of labor is rarely as much as 20% of the cost of bringing a product to market, and if the savings is only 25% of that then it is clearly a case where the majority of people would benefit more from higher wages then they would lose through higer costs.
The cost would be dispreportionately borne by the owners of concerns that hire Illegals, in other words the wealthy. Hence the difficulty in getting effective legislation, just another place where Democracy is squaring off against Capitalism and losing.
I would expect the Democrates to be behind this for labor reasons and the Republicans for security, but the Dems don't want to offend the Hispanics and the Reps don't want to anger their buddies, I think this is an issue the people are going to have to push from the grass roots or it will be ignored in the hopes it will go away.
Sometimes you have to go to the Mob for action...
BC
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:They are not facing a slow painful death of Starvation, that is utter nonsense.
Dan was offering this, not as his own argument, but as an extreme argument, with the suggestion that the truth is probably somewhere in between both extremes. (In other words, you are rebutting a position nobody has espoused.)
-o-
quote:In fact most are on a cycle of work in the states for two or three years then go home and do nothing and live off the money for two or three years.
In my experience, this is not remotely true. Can you document or retract it?
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Why should your experience matter, it is mine that concerns me. I will do neither but you are welcome to seek enlightement on your own time instead of expecting me to provide it.
BC
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Okay. So you pulled that out of your ass and it's not true. No problem. Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
If you say so or it could come from about a hundred different Mexicans I have worked with as a waiter, contractor and soldier, and you could just be a well of ignorance I choose not to try to fill, not my job, I will offer the benefit of my experience not the substance of it, that would make you lazy and dependant, removing an opportunity for you to grow in Power.
BC
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bean Counter: I will offer the benefit of my experience not the substance of it, that would make you lazy and dependant, removing an opportunity for you to grow in Power.
BC
I'm sorry, I don't buy into Timecube.
-o-
I'm willing to bet a substantial sum that I have far, far more experience with illegal aliens than you do.
Posted by WntrMute (Member # 7556) on :
It's a 'colonic extraction.'
A turn of phrase that higly offends certain others on the board. Or a certain other.
Illegal immigration has large consequences for this country. It is a problem that needs to be solved. BC is correct in that neither party is willing or able to do the right thing with regards to it.
I fully understand that there are some people who are quite desperate to leave Mexico. That is a very dysfunctional society at this point, but there is nothing we can do to fix it. However, we cannot and should not be expected to bear the burden of their corruption, mismanagement, and ineffective governance. The answer is not to buckle under and just accept this. The answer is to put grass roots pressure on both parties to do the right things. I also do not see any benefit to providing licenses to illegals. As has been noted, a license is not the same as having insurance, leaving many costs uncovered. Denying a license, as happens to serial drunk drivers or old people who are no longer able to safely drive a car, is no guarrantee that the person won't drive anyhow -- this is quite frequent. A family was severly injured just the other day in Florida when an unlicensed old person hit the accelerator instead of the brake. This is fairly common. Should we provide licenses to those who fail the driving test? How many illegals, a substantial percentage of which are illiterate, would be able to pass the tests in the first place? The biggest problem I have with this is that a driver's license or state ID is, pretty much, our de-facto national identity system. Granting these ID's to illegals is in that respect, in every effective measurement, a complete revocation of our current federal immigration standards. Either change the standards, or uphold them -- that is my challenge to both of the parties that run the government. Doing neither is the hight of stupidity.
Also, with regards to the modern kinds of mines we have available, they are designed to degrade and become inert and there are several which can be armed and disarmed en masse.
With respect to the cost of illegal immigration versus the influx of tax revenue, the whole point of hiring illegals, for a complany, is that there are no taxes withheld. They don't pay social security or income taxes, in most cases. There is therefor an immediate loss in tax revenue when compared to the income that could have instead been generated by a documented worker who did pay withholding and social security taxes. Whatever sales taxes they may end up paying are going to be less than the lost revenue from unreported wages -- especially at the federal level where sales taxes don't count. The other main cost is to our native unskilled labor pool that cannot compete with the low wages that illegal immigration causes for positions that rely on unskilled laborer. It isn't just picking vegatables. Construction, food processing, landscaping, and more. Some of these jobs are fairly well paying -- if the job market wasn't saturated with people who can work for half the price or less.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:Construction, food processing, landscaping, and more. Some of these jobs are fairly well paying -- if the job market wasn't saturated with people who can work for half the price or less.
As a former business owner in the construction industry I can verify that this is correct. For the licensed trades - plumbing and electrician - it's not that big of an impact because not just anyone can call themselves a plumber, they must have a certain number of years as a apprentice and then pass a test before they're allowed to carry a journeyman's card and the penalties for doing it without a license can be severe - not only fines but criminal charges. Public health is at stake after all.
Other trades, like say painting, brick-laying, frame carpentry, drywall, etc. are jobs that did used to be decent wages and have now bottomed out because of the large influx of illegal laborers who are willing to lay brick for less than minimum wage. And the contractor doesn't cut taxes, doesn't report the income, as WntrMute said. Because the wages have bottomed out, fewer young men go into those trades, and when you're looking to hire quality subs who don't skirt the tax laws and who are licensed and bonded, you have a hard time finding them and they are very expensive. Illegal labor has had a huge impact in the construction industry and I don't think it's a positive impact, at all. I think it's driven down the costs to the point that skilled craftspeople have left the trades and it encourages sub-contractors to hire unskilled labor and do shoddy work. Which is not a slam on anyone, I'm sure there are illegals who are darn fine bricklayers. I'm saying that when you have a sub who's willing to break the law by hiring people who don't have legal visas, then how likely is it he does everything else he's supposed to do like carry the proper insurance or workman's comp or make sure the work is up to code?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
For the record, I don't disagree with you, Belle.
Posted by WntrMute (Member # 7556) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: I'm sorry, I don't buy into Timecube.
How can you not!?
quote:Scientists know Time Cube, but any scientist supporting the 4 simultaneous days in a single rotation of Earth, will be fired and banned for life from academic institutions. Scientists are evil cowards and should be castrated for obscurantism of the 4 simultaneous days within a single rotation of Earth. Average people understand 4 Day Creation when I tell them about it, but scientist can't accept it, for the evil bastards think singularity. Singularity can't procreate, a feat requiring opposites.
In the words of the immortal Guinness guys: BRILIANT!
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:Originally posted by WntrMute: It's a 'colonic extraction.'
A turn of phrase that higly offends certain others on the board. Or a certain other.
To be fair, I politely asked him to document his reply, and he rudely refused, before I labeled it thus. I did not simply call it that right off the bat.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
So where is are these "Grassroots" we need to water, I have limited access to search engines here and would welcome an opportunity to toss my support to this cause, as would most every soldier I know.
BC
Posted by WntrMute (Member # 7556) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus:
quote:Originally posted by WntrMute: It's a 'colonic extraction.'
A turn of phrase that higly offends certain others on the board. Or a certain other.
To be fair, I politely asked him to document his reply, and he rudely refused, before I labeled it thus. I did not simply call it that right off the bat.
I'm not calling you on it. I'm being a prat, as our gentler cousins across the pond would say.
It is my intention to test the limits of the new law denying Americans their God-given right to be annoying on the internet.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
It's a sore subject with me when we start talking about the construction trade. There are more problems than just illegal workers, of course. But, had we been willing to not cut taxes for our employees, not pay unemployment tax, not carry liability insurance, not pay workman's comp - we'd still be in business. The single reason we closed down was because we weren't making enough profit to cover the rising costs of insurance for the construction trades. And the people who don't care, who are only after a profit, are driving out legitimate business owners who tried to do things right.
We personally know of five people who shut down construction business in the last two years. And I'm not talking about one person, little handyman operations. Of the five ours was the smallest, and our business wasn't small. Our main supply house told us our supply and fixture orders made us their fith highest customer the last year we were in business.
All of them say the same thing we do - we couldn't keep paying the overhead, it's too high. So who fills the void when folks like us give up? Companies that don't care, that will hire anyone and will lower their standards to just make a profit. For the prices their charging, I KNOW they aren't paying the isurance overheads we were, it would be impossible. We know because in that last year, we were trying to compete with them and were consistently outbid. For the prices some of these companies are charging, we would have been doing the job at a loss.
Personally I predict a grim outcome for the housing industry. Better enjoy the home you have now, or when you move, buy one that was built before the late nineties. The level of craftmanship has gone way, way down in the last decade and it's not going to get better.
Sorry for my tangential rant.
Posted by WntrMute (Member # 7556) on :
quote:Originally posted by Belle: Sorry for my tangential rant.
It is hardly tangential at all, since the costs of the influx of illegal workers is one of the most significant aspects of the problem. Your input has been very pertinent.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:My cop friend says that more than 90% of the crime in Salt Lake is drug and alcohol related and that the majority of crimes are committed by ethnic minorities, with most of the hispanic offenders being illegal immigrants. Would you accuse my friend of being racially biased if you knew that his best friend is a black cop in the same department?
I wouldn't accuse your friend of anything, since I've never met or spoken to him before. But your phrasing and general rhetoric in this thread does invite the question, "Are you racially biased?"
Personally, I don't know. I really don't. I wonder sometimes, but I like to give people the benefit of the doubt on a question like this. I'll just say this, though: the opinions you've put forward in this thread have a lot in common with the opinions of out-and-out racists, skillery.
It is quite possible that there are reasons for the statistics the newspaper published past, "These races are inherently more violent in the USA than is the majority race." Just a thought.
--------
quote:Also, I would make it clear to Mexico that they WILL stop actively supporting illegal immigration (as they currently do), as it is universally accepted as an act of war for one nation to send its citizens over an internationally recognized border into a neighboring country contrary to the laws of that country.
Well while we're pursuing this whimsical war-mongering fantasy, I'm curious: what happens if Mexico refuses? Do we "counter"-invade? Really, your use of the word invasion is utterly inappropriate, considering the utility America obtains by such newcomers. Yes, yes, impoverished, desperate, uneducated, (immigrants) with no legal marketable skills pose a threat...but they're also awfully good at working in Wal-Mart and picking citrus.
I'm deliberately using inflammatory language here in the hopes that you'll understand that this "invasion" you speak of is benefitting us as well as hurting us. It's a strange invasion that pours money into the pockets of the invaded, don't you think?
But back to my question...suppose Mexico balks? We invade. Naturally enough we quickly win (after massive military problems involving moving lots of troops and recruiting lots of troops, as well as thinning our operations elsewhere). Umm...and then what? The United States of America is now the ruler by right of conquest of the nation formerly known as Mexico.
I'll just bet the Mexicans will of course sleep against a sun-drenced wall with their sombreros over their faces while this happens, and during the following occupation, too.
--------
Icarus, I think possibly he was referring to mines that can be deployed with triggers that can be activated and deactivated remotely. I have heard of such things recently, but I don't know much about land mines other than not to step on one.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
quote:I will never understand why the rest of the America's cannot get their act together, they had a couple of centuries head start and still can't climb out of the third world. Free and Common Sockage!
Let's just take this line of idiocy to its logical conclusion. The USA has a headstart of-just to be conservative-roughly five-thousand years ahead of Africa. Therefore, the people of the USA are (using as a standard of humanity's lifetime six-thousand years) hundreds and thousands of times better, smarter, faster, stronger, and nobler than those poor Africans.
If we're going to use standards as stupid as when a nation got started, that is.
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
Rakeesh,
quote:out-and-out racists
You're probably right about me being a racist. Wish it wasn't so. Wish I could get over it. Wish I had seen some white people at the state prison when our youth group toured it. Wish I hadn't been beaten up by that black-power gang in high school back in the 70's. Wish my Japanese boss didn't keep mentioning "stupid, lazy Americans." Wish that hispanic guy hadn't stolen my GTO. You say white people do bad things all the time. Well, maybe I'm just lucky.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
quote:Wish I could get over it.
It is often very difficult to see beyond personal experience to admit when one is over-generalizing to a group or population.
It's also a bit difficult to see beyond the fact of the crimes to what might be behind it.
Close to 100% of white collar crime by CEOs in this country is by white males. Employees I know who worked for Enron have their own set of experiences and know what happens when some greedy bastards can wipe out the personal savings and pensions of 1000's of workers in one fell swoop.
Hey...it's all a matter of background and opportunity. Something in Ken Lay's upbringing made him see his crimes as justifiable and worth the risk.
The guy who stole your GTO had a background and upbringing too.
But, ultimately, the ones who committed the crimes are the ones who are responsible. Not their ethnicity or skin color.
quote:Wish I could get over it.
I wish you more than luck. I wish you find whatever you need in order to get over it.
I'm certain that you can, if you really want to, and really try.
I'll be rooting for your success in this endeavor.
Posted by WntrMute (Member # 7556) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Well while we're pursuing this whimsical war-mongering fantasy, I'm curious: what happens if Mexico refuses? Do we "counter"-invade? Really, your use of the word invasion is utterly inappropriate, considering the utility America obtains by such newcomers. Yes, yes, impoverished, desperate, uneducated, (immigrants) with no legal marketable skills pose a threat...but they're also awfully good at working in Wal-Mart and picking citrus.
I'm deliberately using inflammatory language here in the hopes that you'll understand that this "invasion" you speak of is benefitting us as well as hurting us. It's a strange invasion that pours money into the pockets of the invaded, don't you think?
But back to my question...suppose Mexico balks? We invade. Naturally enough we quickly win (after massive military problems involving moving lots of troops and recruiting lots of troops, as well as thinning our operations elsewhere). Umm...and then what? The United States of America is now the ruler by right of conquest of the nation formerly known as Mexico.
I'll just bet the Mexicans will of course sleep against a sun-drenced wall with their sombreros over their faces while this happens, and during the following occupation, too.
Ok. 1. Your racist sterotyping is not amusing, not appropriate, and simply reflects your own amazing degree of ignorance and offensiveness and not my own. You also apparently lack the most basic language skills that would allow you to understand that I am not, have not, and will not call for barring legal immigration -- and in fact have called for legal immigration and work programs to be increased. Your pathetic attempt to smear me with YOUR racist and bigotted imagery is both clumsy and ineffective.
2. When 500,000 people crosse an internationally recognized border without permission, what word OTHER than 'invasion' would apply?
3. Before going to war, there are a very large number of alternative actions that can be taken first. Among which could be the closing of the border, ending aid, considering any and/or all treaties with Mexico void, as well as other diplomatic or economic pressures. However, if a nation is actively subverting our laws and our borders, that is a classic definition of an act of war.
4. How, exactly, is the complete collapse of the native construction industry (as described above) a 'benefit' to any of us? I get to pay welfare for those native people who can't find work. I get to pay increased health costs because illegals don't get medical coverage, which means the rest of us pay for their medical care. I get to pay more taxes because the illegals don't have tax withheld on their earnings. I get to pay higher car insurance rates while stolen cars from my neighborhood mysteriously find their way to Equador and Costa Rica. Any savings that companies may enjoy go into corporate coffers for multi-million dollar executive bonuses at the end of the year. I don't see a dime of it. You don't either. And, furthermore, the fact of the matter is that we aren't talking about fruit pickers, we are talking about people who work at Tyson's, in landscaping positions around the country, in construction around the country, in body shops, in restraunts, in bars, in any unskilled position where a business owner may want to get work for $3 an hour instead of the $9 (minimum) he'd have to pay for a native.
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
My friends at a factory in Ireland are alarmed by the influx of Eastern Europeans into their country since the creation of the EU. The Eastern Europeans can't seem to learn English fast enough, and they're grabbing up all the low-paying jobs. Sounds familiar.
But maybe we're all going to have to dip down to what we consider 3rd-world status in order to give these other people a boost. Maybe some of us will lose our jobs or pay what we consider to be an unfair proportion of the taxes.
What will life be like for all of us three or four generations from now?
Well, three or four generations ago there was an influx of poor Irish into the US. Maybe somebody lost his job to an Irishman who was willing to work for less. Maybe some of our grandparents subsidized the relief those immigrants received with tax dollars.
Do we think of Irish-Americans today as being poor or job-stealers? Nope. We hardly think of them as being anything but Americans.
Three or four generations from now maybe we'll all be North Americans and EU citizens. Maybe the wage gap will have closed between people of various origins. Maybe we'll be ready to absorb the next influx of impoverished people. Wouldn't it be nice?
[ January 12, 2006, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: skillery ]
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:2. When 500,000 people crosse an internationally recognized border without permission, what word OTHER than 'invasion' would apply?
Exodus.
Posted by WntrMute (Member # 7556) on :
quote:Originally posted by skillery: Three or four generations fron now maybe we'll all be North Americans and EU citizens. Maybe the wage gap will have closed between people of various origins. Maybe we'll be ready to absorb the next influx of impoverished people. Wouldn't it be nice?
No. I am not entranced with your little 'global community' scenario. I don't think that completely improbable pie in the sky fantasy is all that great, and certainly isn't worth even the slightest sacrifice on my part.
The big difference between your 'once upon a time' and now is that when the Irish came, someone who lost their job could move West and start over. That was also a time when the factories and railroads had an insatiable need for more workers. Where is there to go now for unskilled labor? Detroit isn't hiring. There's no money in farming unless you are either Acher, Daniel, or Midlands. Alaska, maybe has an opportunity or two, and that's about it.
And maybe you think that watching your own children starving to death is peachy keen just so long as it's 'just a dip' into third world status, but I am not. I have no interest in living in a third world country, especially since the country my ancestors have left me is (due to their efforts) much better than that. If you are so damned keen on living that way, feel free to find a third-world country and move there. Do not try to force it on me.
I also find the fact that you are more sympathetic to the foreign poor than our domestic poor.
Should I take a note from others in this thread and falsly ascribe a racist motivation to that misplaced sympathy? No, I shouldn't, as personally satisfying to my indignation as that may be, it would be false (I'm fairly sure) and would simply demonstrate my own ignorance, wouldn't it? But maybe by bringing this up, maybe you can think about the impact this has on the native poor. While, keep in mind, the business owners profit. That should get your little heart all aflutter about the fundamental unfairness here.
I'm sure the Caananites considered the Exodus an invasion. It all depends on if you're the one coming or getting overrun, doesn't it?
Posted by WntrMute (Member # 7556) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
quote:2. When 500,000 people crosse an internationally recognized border without permission, what word OTHER than 'invasion' would apply?
Exodus.
Meet any Caananites lately?
Sorry, I know I answered this above, but this one liner came to me a bit late.
Enjoy.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
You know, just when I think I am feeling a little slow, I read this thread and realize that it could be worse.....
I could be BC.
SO...because in his infinate wisdom he has spoken to so many of these people at his other jobs, we get the "benifit" of his opinion.....
How many of them you ask? Hmmm.....100,000 of them? That would be 1/5th of the number mentioned above....
Nope.
Not quite THAT many......
At least 400 of them, right?
Hmmm.....maybe.
Maybe not.
30?
Thank you for such sage wisdom, I am growing in Power as we speak.
Wait....nevermind, it was just gas.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote: Detroit isn't hiring
Sure we are. Well, maybe not Detroit specifically, but the suburban area is actually doing fairly well. Most of the plant closings that Ford and GM will suffer probably won't be in the Detroit area, they will be in southern factories. Sorry Atlanta.
Superbowl traffic is keeping the area humming for the moment, and Oakland county is expecting a job boom in the next few years thanks to our WIFI initiative.
Even if we weren't though, all the jobs still require some sort of training. The auto industry is only getting more technically advanced, especially line work. It's not the sort of thing an unskilled worker could jump into like they could 80 years ago. Half my family works or has worked for Ford in the past. Most of them are white collar workers who are currently holding their breath waiting to hear if they're going to lose their jobs, but I hear a LOT of details about the biz at holidays. Assembly lines are gearing up and retooling to become a lot more efficient. The idea is centered around the drive to bring down costs, and that means at the manufacturing level as much as it means at the level of the employees.
Even if Detroit was hiring 10,000 new line workers, it's highly unlikely that unskilled immigrant labor would make it into the business successfully. Many of the suburbs are NOT cheap to live in, no matter where you live you'll have travel expenses to get to work, and it requires a lot of on the job training to be a line worker. You need to be able to speak English, and then there's the UAW to worry about.
Oh to be back in the good old days.
Posted by WntrMute (Member # 7556) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
quote: Detroit isn't hiring
Sure we are. Well, maybe not Detroit specifically, but the suburban area is actually doing fairly well. Most of the plant closings that Ford and GM will suffer probably won't be in the Detroit area, they will be in southern factories. Sorry Atlanta.
And Baltimore.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Which plant is closing in Baltimore?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
WntrMute, I don't believe you have read Skillery's posts carefully enough. You're attacking the wrong person.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
skillery,
Your experiences all share one thing in common, and it's not minorities. It's racists. In every situation you've described, with the exception of your prison example, you were describing other racists.
As a solution to this problem, you've decided to emulate the people who disregarded, wronged, or humiliated you. You have the wherewithal to be both tougher and smarter than that.
-----------
WntrMute,
I'll have to respond to you later. Work beckons. I can't help but say this, though: it's amusing to be labeled a racist by someone who calls Mexican illegals an invasion, and thinks a military response is appropriate.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Hee Hee I thought of that one liner instantly but I have always felt it was ironic that God ordered the first Genocide be carried out by the Isrealites...
Have no fear Kwea, you will never be me, what it took to make me would destroy you.
I believe work Visa's and strict legal immigration that is expanded a bit are a good comprimise, it addresses the Social Security issue, keeps the wages from spiking too high and gives positive control, like legalizing drugs and taxing them to pay rehab costs it is a ruthless solution that must also involve ruthless enforcement.
We will still have to control the border much better and making smuggling or being here illegally a Felony and then deporting the illegals to Mexican prisons that are treaty bound to enforce the new laws would be a nice touch, you would have to be real desperate to risk a Mexican prison...
We relived the Texas National Guard when we took over our new AO so they are home with lots of experience and nothing to do....
BC
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
You know, some people here on the tightening of borders side of the fence, moan about how we are paying to support/subsidize a dysfuntional society by allowing illegal immigration. However, mining and guarding the border is exactly the same thing. We are paying, in mines and patrols, for their dysfunctional society.
To me, it seems, loosening restrictions over time, smartly, leads to fewer dead bodies than the alternative. That alone guides me to look for ways to loosen restrictions.
Belle, what do you think about registering all who would be illegals, but dropping the minimum wage somewhat? There will be some definite short-term pain to American citizens, but I don't know that the long-term could enrich both sides.
-Bok
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Bok, I have no clue. I'm not an economist.
What I would like is more stringent penalties on companies that operate outside the law - what happens is an unscrupulous company doesn't carry insurance, the job goes bad, someone is hurt, and the homeowner or general sues, so insurance rates go up for everyone because it's seen as such a high-risk industry. And, companies that do carry insurance but aren't careful about who they hire have people who wind up making tons of workman's comp claims and workman's comp goes up for everyone. When we shut down our business our liability insurance premium had tripled in the last three months and we never had a claim. They raised it because we were in a "high risk industry."
Problem is, nobody wants to pay $500,000 for a home that used to cost $175,000 to build. So, contractors have to find ways to keep their in business and they can do it by either dropping insurance (which I know a lot of our competitors did) or by paying less wages and hiring people who will work for less. Either way, things are going to get worse becuase the overall quality is going down, housing may be cheap around here but the quality, it's scary. For example, we know someone who bought a house that had pipes in it that weren't rated for hot water. Wes told them they would eventually have to replace all the hot water piping. They laughed it off, saying no, it was new construction, the pipes wouldn't burst, they were put in by a great contractor, etc. Well, three years later....not only did they wind up replacing the pipes but also paying for extensive water damage.
That kind of scenario is all too common. And don't rely on inspectors to keep you safe - in one city we used to work in none of the plumbing inspectors were plumbers. They had never worked as one, they had no experience whatsoever except a two semester junior college course in building sciences. Someone like that wouldn't know a non-rated pipe from a rated one. And the inspectors that aren't incompetent are on the take. It's a sad, sad situation.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
The only way to actually stop this kind of "gravitational shift" is to actually end up with a more overall balanced system.
Posted by WntrMute (Member # 7556) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: I can't help but say this, though: it's amusing to be labeled a racist by someone who calls Mexican illegals an invasion, and thinks a military response is appropriate.
I think that it is arrogant beyond all belief for someone to assume that no-one can be allowed to ever have an opinion contrary to yours without that person being stupid, racist, and/or evil.
Contrary to what you apparently believe, it is easily possible for someone to disagree with your most basic assumptions without being scum.
And you, once again, demonstrate that your arrogance is without ANY justification, since you are unable to comprehend even the most simple statements -- such as when I said, in simple English, that calling you a racist would be false.
Lose this attitude of innate superiority. It is not merited. It blinds you and weakens you.
Posted by WntrMute (Member # 7556) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: WntrMute, I don't believe you have read Skillery's posts carefully enough. You're attacking the wrong person.
I'm not attacking Skillery, I'm commenting on that one post. A bit more bluntly than if it had been after a good night's sleep, but there it is.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
WntrMute,
I can certainly understand your feelings of being "tapped out" and wanting to defend what you have. I feel that way, too. But bear in mind some of these things:
quote: Of the world’s 6 billion people, more than 1.2 billion live on less than $1 a day. Two billion more people are only marginally better off. About 60 percent of the people living on less than $1 a day live in South Asia and Sub-Saharan Africa.
quote: The world's richest 225 people have combined assets equal to the combined annual income of the world's 2.5 billion poorest people.
quote: Half the world — nearly three billion people — live on less than two dollars a day.
The GDP (Gross Domestic Product) of the poorest 48 nations (i.e. a quarter of the world’s countries) is less than the wealth of the world’s three richest people combined.
Nearly a billion people entered the 21st century unable to read a book or sign their names.
Less than one per cent of what the world spent every year on weapons was needed to put every child into school by the year 2000 and yet it didn't happen.
“According to UNICEF, 30,000 children die each day due to poverty. And they “die quietly in some of the poorest villages on earth, far removed from the scrutiny and the conscience of the world. Being meek and weak in life makes these dying multitudes even more invisible in death.”
That is about 210,000 children each week, or just under 11 million children under five years of age, each year.
quote:And maybe you think that watching your own children starving to death is peachy keen just so long as it's 'just a dip' into third world status, but I am not. I have no interest in living in a third world country, especially since the country my ancestors have left me is (due to their efforts) much better than that. If you are so damned keen on living that way, feel free to find a third-world country and move there. Do not try to force it on me.
Can't you imagine that fathers in third world countries are willing to do whatever they can to keep from watching their children actually starving to death? Including being separated from them and running some pretty awful risks to get here.
A wise person once said that a just world is one that you would design if you didn't know who your parents would be. That you and I were lucky enough to be born here is an accident of birth. We have the lifestyle that we do, not because we are better or more deserving, but because we are lucky. And our ancestors faced similar trials to get here and faced similar anger from thse who were already here. So while I do sympathize with your frustration and your fear, don't talk about it being fair.
Posted by Valentina (Member # 9029) on :
hi,I'm a new user,i was reading this thread and i wanted to say something,i'm not happy with illegal inmigrants in this country, not so long ago i was one,i hated it,now everything is ok thanks to my wonderful husband. I don't agree with them not being able to have driver's license,that's ridiculous,because that's not gonna stop,people are still gonna drive to go to work,shopping...ect and is dangerous to everyone. They main reason i'm not happy with illegal immigrants they say they come here to fulfill the " American dream", and i'm not saying everybody but most of them the american dream means,to come here get a fake name have lots of kids and get food from W.I.C,and never get anywhere. I think we should build more walls in the frontier,hire more guards,and try to stop illegal immigration,and second after that's done we should give the illegal people the chance to become legal within a year or so,if they decide not to do it,they have to get out. I know that's easy to say but hard to do,i just hope someday we can have privileges like free medical care without anybody abusing the system. Well,that's just my opinion,I hope not to make people mad.. Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Valentina,
First of all welcome. I don't think you'll make people mad, but you might want to think about other illegal immigrants wanting to come here for the reasons you did. Should we have made it harder for you to get here?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Valentina -
I have to echo kmb. That's a curious position from someone who admits to recently having been an illegal immigrant.
How do you suggest weeding out the people who want to be contributory Americans from the people who just want to suck the system dry for benefits?
Posted by Valentina (Member # 9029) on :
First of all thanks for answering. I don't have an answer for what you call "weeding out" people who overuse the system,but i know some people who have everything a house,car all you need to be well off in your life,and still use the goverments funds. KMB i think about other illegal immigrants,they way they risks their lives, a lot of them die,and they get here to get bombed by all the anti-immigrants laws,yes they might have more money to feed their families,but is it worth it,risking being caught by an immigration officer,be sent to your country and lose all you've gained?. I came to this country legally i overstayed my visa,i learned english in 3 months ,graduated from high school, i took a Cna course but when i tried to get to a University,i found out i could not because of my legal status i was gonna pack my things and go back to my country,the only reason i didn't it was my then boyfriend,this country has become my country and i love it. I'm only saying that Illegal immigrants hurt the system and themselves,i just wish there was an easy solutions to help them because they deserve to be treated with respect and all the benefits of this wonderful land we live.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote: KMB i think about other illegal immigrants,they way they risks their lives, a lot of them die,and they get here to get bombed by all the anti-immigrants laws,yes they might have more money to feed their families,but is it worth it,risking being caught by an immigration officer,be sent to your country and lose all you've gained?.
I think they must be pretty desperate and that we should look for more compassionate ways to address that desperation. Rather than land mines, for example. And I also think we need to at least glance at the ways that we contribute to the conditions that cause such despair.
Posted by Valentina (Member # 9029) on :
That's another story the reason they come here,if there's someone to blame it will be their countries,most of the illegal immigrants are form Mexico,but you listen to the statements of President Fox, and he really makes me wonder if he's able to run a country. So the only people i would blame is their corrupt goverment people. For my part i've never done nothing against illegal immigrants and never will,if i do it will be to help them.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Not you in particular, honey.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
WntrMute,
quote:Your racist sterotyping is not amusing, not appropriate, and simply reflects your own amazing degree of ignorance and offensiveness and not my own.
It was not intended to be amusing, and it was entirely appropriate. People like yourself decry illegal immigration for all of the dangers and drawbacks it poses, focusing the spotlight on precisely the negative racial stereotypes of dangerous and/or resource-sucking illegal immigrants, ignoring the other side of the coin: cheap, abundant labor which in part fuels our economy and by which we all benefit and almost entirely never question nor reject.
Shop at Wal-Mart, WntrMute? Buy orange juice? Or do you have your lawn maintained? Possibly you've had a building put up quickly and cheaply. It's a guarantee that you've partaken of at least one of these services before, but I doubt you were bemoaning this "invasion" then.
Opposition to illegal immigration that focuses on the negative and ignores the positive while benefiting from that positive is hypocritical and smacks of racism, since there are very few white illegal immigrants who work cheaply in the USA. My language skills are fine, thank you very much.
I didn't even mention your "plan" for increasing legal immigration, I was talking about your "plan" for invading if Mexico stopped. I said then and say now that such an idea is stupid, short-sighted, jingoistic, and hypocritical.
quote:When 500,000 people crosse an internationally recognized border without permission, what word OTHER than 'invasion' would apply?
If we're going to talk real-world impact here-what actually happens, mind you-then I'd use two words: Crap! and cha-ching! Actually that's three words, but I think you get the drift. Illegal immigration is a mixed bag. It's an "invasion" that both drains and pours resources into our national coffers.
quote:3. Before going to war, there are a very large number of alternative actions that can be taken first. Among which could be the closing of the border, ending aid, considering any and/or all treaties with Mexico void, as well as other diplomatic or economic pressures. However, if a nation is actively subverting our laws and our borders, that is a classic definition of an act of war.
The alternative actions you describe carry drastic repurcussions of their own. Closing the border would harm our economy. Actually policing this border...well, who's going to do it? The Minutemen? To say nothing of serious diplomatic and economic repurcussions between us and the rest of the world. We have friends and allies that would not look kindly on such a hostile act, whether or not you view it as "defensive"-gotta defend ourselves from all that cheap labor, after all.
I'm definitely not one to list diplomatic ramifications as a primary focus for things like this, but it needs to be considered.
quote:How, exactly, is the complete collapse of the native construction industry (as described above) a 'benefit' to any of us? I get to pay welfare for those native people who can't find work. I get to pay increased health costs because illegals don't get medical coverage, which means the rest of us pay for their medical care. I get to pay more taxes because the illegals don't have tax withheld on their earnings. I get to pay higher car insurance rates while stolen cars from my neighborhood mysteriously find their way to Equador and Costa Rica.
The native construction industry has not "collapsed". The native unskilled (in terms of college, certification, bonded insured etc. etc.) construction industry has been drastically altered, yes. And what's the result? Cheaper housing. Cheaper buildings. Faster construction.
The wages illegals earn are often so low that even if they were legal, they'd get it back in refunds. Their healthcare? They're the ones cleaning the hospital you visit at three in the morning. They're the ones doing its laundry.
quote:Any savings that companies may enjoy go into corporate coffers for multi-million dollar executive bonuses at the end of the year. I don't see a dime of it. You don't either. And, furthermore, the fact of the matter is that we aren't talking about fruit pickers, we are talking about people who work at Tyson's, in landscaping positions around the country, in construction around the country, in body shops, in restraunts, in bars, in any unskilled position where a business owner may want to get work for $3 an hour instead of the $9 (minimum) he'd have to pay for a native.
Your understanding of basic economics is about as dim as your understanding of what sort of things are involved in declaring a war on a bordering nation. Don't see a dime of it? If everyone has cheaper labor, prices drop in a capitalist system. Even in a system of "restrained" capitalism such as ours.
Those business owners that are paying 1/3 wages? People do business with them. Those people save money. How could you possibly miss this fundamental fact?
quote:I'm sure the Caananites considered the Exodus an invasion. It all depends on if you're the one coming or getting overrun, doesn't it?
Yes, but what's that word describing the status of the Caananites after the Exodus? Dead, if I'm not mistaken.
quote:And maybe you think that watching your own children starving to death is peachy keen just so long as it's 'just a dip' into third world status, but I am not. I have no interest in living in a third world country, especially since the country my ancestors have left me is (due to their efforts) much better than that. If you are so damned keen on living that way, feel free to find a third-world country and move there. Do not try to force it on me.
While there are starving people in the USA, you are definitely not one of them. It's easy to tell, because you're whiling away your time on an Internet forum instead of starving. So please, don't get all hysterical and act like you're a martyr. You're not. You had nothing to do with the work of your ancestors, and guess what? Those ancestors...lots and lots of immigrants. Legal and illegal. Hell, some of them were even slaves. And in this "long run" you're whining about? It's turned out OK.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:The native construction industry has not "collapsed". The native unskilled (in terms of college, certification, bonded insured etc. etc.) construction industry has been drastically altered, yes. And what's the result? Cheaper housing. Cheaper buildings. Faster construction.
No. No. And No.
The result is not a benefit for the consumer - it's not a win-win for us. The result is poorer housing, and rising costs to everyone where insurance is concerned. If the guy hiring illegals and not maintaining workman's comp insurance has people injured while working on your house - YOU will pay. You will be sued. Or your insurance will have to cover it and you will still pay in higher premiums.
The drastic altering of the native construction industry, as you called it, is not a positive for the consumer.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Ah, the market for lemons.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Alright, I'll grant that. If you go to a shady corner-cutting contracter who subs out to similar fellows and scrimps on insurance...you're gonna get screwed in some form or another.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
I once considered writing a fiction story about an American Holocaust. In it death camps were created somewhere in the American desert, where truck loads of illegal aliens went to disappear.
I stopped the story because I thought it was too unbelievable.
Yet between the "Minutemen" and "Landmines on the border" and "Invade Mexico" sentiments being bandied about, I wonder how far fetched the scenario really is.
1) Government outsources Illegal Alien Deportment. 2) A well financed group of radicals wins the bid. 3) There idea, if a few illegals start vanishing the cost of getting an American job will be to high.
Its a horrid idea, but these self-proclaimed patriots are willing to do it to protect their country from invasion, to protect their jobs and the jobs of their families, to protect their heritage, religion, and image from all the evils that the wave of illegal immigration threatens.
So they set up camps to disappear and dispose of illegals that are caught. Not all of them, but a few, one truck load in 10, or 5, or 3...and that few grow and grow.
Yeah, it is now more plausible than I first thought. Maybe the story should be written.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
The answer to the current world problems is not in our having less or redistributing our wealth outward. All that would do is leave everyone with nothing. Only great wealth focused on long term goals will lead the world out of its crisis. It is our moral responsibility to maintain and increase out reach and wealth and secondly to direct it into the vast untapped resources and power of space in the long run and remote areas of the Earth in the short term. It is only this investment that can drag the rest of the world out of hock.
A thousand ordinary minds are not equal to one genius, that he needs them to do the work of pushing thought forward is true, but no amount of hauling water or chopping wood equals the quantum theory of gravity. In the same way no amount of blankets for the homeless equals a Space Station.
Mexico has a low enough population and resources enough to be a good place, its failures are moral and are not our responsibility.
BC
Posted by DarkKnight (Member # 7536) on :
Dan, I would think that there are enough death camps happening right now in the world that should be written about rather than making up one that would never happen here in America.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Bean Counter,
quote:The answer to the current world problems is not in our having less or redistributing our wealth outward.
It shows great foresight on your part, putting this thought out there before anyone actually makes the point you're rebutting. That way, when they do, well you've already rebutted it!
quote:All that would do is leave everyone with nothing.
Well actually it'd leave everyone with a very little. Not nothing. See, I'm showing foresight too! We need someone to come here and make the point you're addressing, and then we can insert your rebuttal, and then we can insert my response to that rebuttal!
quote:Only great wealth focused on long term goals will lead the world out of its crisis.
Whose wealth? What goals? Who does the distribution? Anyway, it's stupid to think there is only one solution to a problem like you're describing.
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I don't have the answers, but I'm saying jail time isn't a good answer to relatively small offences. I'm not coming down against illegal aliens, I'm actually trying to say that it should be easier for them to become legal. I'm not faulting people for trying to make a better life for themselves and their families.![[Wink]](wink.gif)