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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
I expect that this was hit on in one of the more general threads on Judaism, but we may have some new insights/members we didn't have way back when. So if you forgive my laziness and indulge me, I will be most grateful. And if I inadvertantly create a controversial thread, I apologize. [Smile]

I am curious to know more about Jewish concepts of the Messiah. My understanding, based on study primarily rooted in Christianity, is that Messiah was a Jewish concept. It didn't necessarily mean to them what Christians claim Jesus is, though. (Actually, I have been under the impression that it meant a military leader to free them from oppression.)

How does the concept of a Messiah who will die in expiation for humanity's sins play to Jewish people? (I am not inviting Jews, or anybody else, to post sentiments to the effect that Christians are primitives who screwed everything up: I am asking if this is what they believe, and if not, what do they believe?)

Do all Jews believe that a Messiah will come? Do different Jews hold different opinions? Do Orthodox Jews believe differently from Conservative or Reform Jews?

If the Messiah will be neither a military leader nor a sacrificial lamb, what will (s)he be?

[Confused]
 
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
 
The purpose of the Messiah will not be to act as a sacrifice.

The Messiah will be a regular person who will unite the world and rebuild the temple. Among other things, that Jesus did not do. That is the primary reason he was not excepted by the Jews.

I'm sure Lisa will go into greater detail.
 
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
 
http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm

As good an explanation as any.
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
quote:
The Messiah will be a regular person who will unite the world and rebuild the temple. Among other things, that Jesus did not do. That is the primary reason he was not excepted by the Jews.
The temple was still standing in Jesus' day.
 
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
quote:
The Messiah will be a regular person who will unite the world and rebuild the temple. Among other things, that Jesus did not do. That is the primary reason he was not excepted by the Jews.
The temple was still standing in Jesus' day.
That was the 2nd temple. I should have clarified, the Messiah will build the 3rd temple.
 
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
We await Moshiach (Messiah). We try to follow the commandments, and to encourage other Jews to do the same to hasten the day when he comes. In the time of Moshiach, the Holy Temple will be rebuilt and animal sacrifices will be made there.
 
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
Are there (organized) jews who do not await someone to rebuild the temple?
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Well-- the problem here is that the passage (Jermiah 33:15-18) related by your link doesn't actually say that the Messiah will build the third temple. It says that at the time that the Messiah gains political power, there will be plenty fo folks to perform temple ceremonies, and plenty of David's descendants to govern.

When Jeremiah wrote that passage (and I could be missing here), the temple of Solomon had been recently destroyed, and the kingdoms of Israel and Judah dispersed. The temple was rebuilt by one of the Herods, I think.

Where in scripture do the prophets mention that a third temple will be reconstructed?

At any rate, I don't think that these facts (as far as I know them) detract from the Jewish belief that Christ was not the Messiah.
 
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Icarus:
Are there (organized) jews who do not await someone to rebuild the temple?

There is a secular "organized brach" of Judaism that doesn't even believe in G-d. Even though I am Reform, I can't even answer that. My eyes have been opened to "official" beliefs of the Reform movement that I was never aware of, and never accepted myself.
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
[Big Grin]

Additionally:

I don't know that anyone who has the ability to unite the Jewish world could be called a 'regular person.'

[Big Grin]
 
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
Well-- the problem here is that the passage (Jermiah 33:15-18) related by your link doesn't actually say that the Messiah will build the third temple. It says that at the time that the Messiah gains political power, there will be plenty fo folks to perform temple ceremonies, and plenty of David's descendants to govern.

When Jeremiah wrote that passage (and I could be missing here), the temple of Solomon had been recently destroyed, and the kingdoms of Israel and Judah dispersed. The temple was rebuilt by one of the Herods, I think.

Where in scripture do the prophets mention that a third temple will be reconstructed?

At any rate, I don't think that these facts (as far as I know them) detract from the Jewish belief that Christ was not the Messiah.

The third temple may be mentioned in scripture, I'm not sure. I just recently started researching all of this myself. But because that temple was destroyed, built by a non-Jew, and during its time nothing else on the list was completed the prophecy was obviously not fulfilled.
 
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Ah-- so the temple HAS to be built by a Jew?

Why didn't the Jews wait for one of their own to rebuild it after it was destroyed the first time?

Hmm. . . looks like there was a temple of sorts in Jerusalem-- the Jews of Herod's time gave him permission to tear it down and rebuild.

Jewish Encyclopedia article
 
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Messiah is a transliteration of the Hebrew word that means "anointed". Aaron (Moses's brother) is referred to as Ha-Kohen Ha-Mashiach, or the anointed priest.

Anointing was the way leaders were designated. Ordinarily, when a king succeeded his father, he didn't require anointing, since the succession was clear. When the succession was unclear, as in the cases of Saul (no succession at all), David (new dynasty), Solomon (Adonijah's attempt to crown himself) and so on, anointing was done. Otherwise, it wasn't.

In the case of Mashiach with a capital M, as in the one we're waiting for, it simply means the Davidic king who will come to power as a leader of Israel, and who will do all the things that are appropriate for the leader of Israel.

In his laws of kings and their wars, Moses Maimonides wrote about the Messiah and all that he'll do. This is a link to a translation of that material. Be sure to see the censored sections in the notes at the bottom.
 
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Icarus:
Are there (organized) jews who do not await someone to rebuild the temple?

There certainly is.
 
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
When Jeremiah wrote that passage (and I could be missing here), the temple of Solomon had been recently destroyed, and the kingdoms of Israel and Judah dispersed. The temple was rebuilt by one of the Herods, I think.

Actually, the Second Temple was built during the reign of Darius the Persian. Herod (the original) did a lot of building on the Temple Mount, and a lot of beautification, which is why it's sometimes referred to in its later days as "Herod's Temple".

quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
Where in scripture do the prophets mention that a third temple will be reconstructed?

It isn't so much that there will be a third one. The truth is, that even though we refer to the one destroyed by the Romans as the Second Temple and the one yet to be built as the Third Temple, the "Second Temple" was really Temple 1.5, so to speak.

Ezekiel describes the final Temple, but when we went to build it during the Persian period, we found that there was much in what Ezekiel wrote that was simply impossible for the time. So we built something that was sort of a hybrid of the First Temple and the Last Temple.

That Temple had lesser holiness due to the absence of the Ark of the Covenant. During the Second Temple era, the Holy of Holies was empty, because Josiah (yes, the one Eko was talking about) had hidden the Ark away a couple of decades before the First Temple was destroyed.
 
Posted by Minerva (Member # 2991) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Icarus:
Are there (organized) jews who do not await someone to rebuild the temple?

There certainly is.
Wow.
 
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
Ah-- so the temple HAS to be built by a Jew?

Why didn't the Jews wait for one of their own to rebuild it after it was destroyed the first time?

Hmm. . . looks like there was a temple of sorts in Jerusalem-- the Jews of Herod's time gave him permission to tear it down and rebuild.

Jewish Encyclopedia article

What Herod did was a major renovation, really. And there are various views regarding the Jewishness of Herod.

Yochanan (John) Hyrcanus, son of Shimon (Simeon) who was the brother of Judah Maccabee, conquered the nation of Idumaea, and enslaved the populace.

In Jewish law, when a non-Jew is made a slave, he (or she) becomes a quasi-Jew. The men require circumcision, and they're all required to obey most of the commandments that Jews are required to obey. They're exempt from time-bound positive commandments, among others.

We refer to such slaves as "Canaanite slaves", as opposed to "Hebrew slaves". The latter are the ones who serve a maximum of 7 years in most cases, and that was generally a type of indentured servitude, most often happening because a person could not make recompense for a crime he'd committed. Canaanite slaves, by contrast, didn't go free on their own. But they could be freed by a writ of manumission.

When manumitted, a Canaanite slave (and remember, these weren't actually Canaanites; that's just the term used) became a full-fledged Jew.

Antipater the Idumaean, who was the father of Herod, was one of the Idumaeans originally enslaved, and belonged to the Hasmonean family (the descendents of Shimon of the Maccabees). Herod killed all the remaining Hasmoneans. And there was no one to inherit him. So the question was, did that automatically free him, sort of by default, or did it mean he could never be freed, ever?

The eventual answer was that the Herodians were slaves. And indeed, that anyone claiming to be of Hasmonean descent was also a slave.
 
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
 
An acquaintance tells of visiting the Holy Land and meeting with certain Jews who had already purchased the materials with which to rebuild the temple.

Their dilemma was whether they should go ahead and rebuild the temple without waiting for the Messiah, and if they did, what would they do with their temple. Don't they need some Levites?
 
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
It isn't so much that there will be a third one. The truth is, that even though we refer to the one destroyed by the Romans as the Second Temple and the one yet to be built as the Third Temple, the "Second Temple" was really Temple 1.5, so to speak.

Ezekiel describes the final Temple, but when we went to build it during the Persian period, we found that there was much in what Ezekiel wrote that was simply impossible for the time. So we built something that was sort of a hybrid of the First Temple and the Last Temple.

That Temple had lesser holiness due to the absence of the Ark of the Covenant. During the Second Temple era, the Holy of Holies was empty, because Josiah (yes, the one Eko was talking about) had hidden the Ark away a couple of decades before the First Temple was destroyed.

So that sort of prevents some power hungry fool from just building a third temple and declaring himself the Mashiach. If that happened we would just assume that it would at some point be destroyed because it is not the final temple?
 
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stephan:
quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
That Temple had lesser holiness due to the absence of the Ark of the Covenant. During the Second Temple era, the Holy of Holies was empty, because Josiah (yes, the one Eko was talking about) had hidden the Ark away a couple of decades before the First Temple was destroyed.

So that sort of prevents some power hungry fool from just building a third temple and declaring himself the Mashiach. If that happened we would just assume that it would at some point be destroyed because it is not the final temple?
It hasn't happened yet. I don't imagine it will.
 
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Icarus:
Are there (organized) jews who do not await someone to rebuild the temple?

There certainly is.
Are they connected to the attempted boming of the Temple Mount in the early 80's?
 
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Minerva:
quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Icarus:
Are there (organized) jews who do not await someone to rebuild the temple?

There certainly is.
Wow.
If you're ever in Jerusalem, you must take the tour of the Temple Institute. It's breathtaking.

I remember one year that I was at the Seudat HaMikdash (the Institute's annual fundraising dinner), and one of the speakers actually brought a goat in to demonstrate how smicha was done on the animals before they were sacrificed. That's the "laying on of hands", more or less.

There are a lot of Jews who make a point of being absent from Jerusalem (further than walking distance) on Passover, because the obligation of bringing the Pascal offering doesn't depend on the Temple standing.

And it's not just the Temple that we're getting in gear for. It's the Sanhedrin as well. Here are some links:
It's a very exciting time.
 
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stephan:
quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Icarus:
Are there (organized) jews who do not await someone to rebuild the temple?

There certainly is.
Are they connected to the attempted boming of the Temple Mount in the early 80's?
Um, no. That guy wasn't even Jewish.
 
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
Thank you for the answers so far. I will come back with questions after I have thought for a bit.
 
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
 
Icky, I hope you don't mind if I add a little humor to this thread, by sharing a story... [Smile]

I've posted it before, so I'll just link you:

Story!
 
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
 
quote:
Sanhedrin Rabbis Discuss Sublime, Procedural Issues

:

"...the Sanhedrin was the highest Jewish judicial tribunal in the Land of Israel. Organizers of the current edition stress that they are still in a transitional phase, and that though today's members are all Torah scholars and experts in many secular and scientific fields, every one of them has agreed to step aside the moment a more deserving candidate should step forward."

Are we talking about Levites or the Messiah himself?
 
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
 
quote:
2 Chronicles 19
19:4 And Jehoshaphat dwelt at Jerusalem: and he went out again through the people from Beersheba to mount Ephraim, and brought them back unto the LORD God of their fathers.
19:5 And he set judges in the land throughout all the fenced cities of Judah, city by city,
19:6 And said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD, who is with you in the judgment.
19:7 Wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do it: for there is no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.
19:8 Moreover in Jerusalem did Jehoshaphat set of the Levites, and of the priests, and of the chief of the fathers of Israel, for the judgment of the LORD, and for controversies, when they returned to Jerusalem.

Sounds like we might need some Levites for our Sanhedrin.
 
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
Raia: *snicker*

-o-

Now, I know that belief in an afterlife is not central to Judaism. Does this mean that no groups that consider themselves Jewish believe in an afterlife, or that belief/nonbelief in an afterlife is a non-issue, and people believe whatever feels right to them? Are there "official" Jewish positions on an afterlife?

I am asking because belief in the afterlife seems to be pretty central to the Christian conception of Messiah, and so I'm exploring this apparent difference.
 
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Icarus:
Raia: *snicker*

-o-

Now, I know that belief in an afterlife is not central to Judaism. Does this mean that no groups that consider themselves Jewish believe in an afterlife, or that belief/nonbelief in an afterlife is a non-issue, and people believe whatever feels right to them? Are there "official" Jewish positions on an afterlife?

I am asking because belief in the afterlife seems to be pretty central to the Christian conception of Messiah, and so I'm exploring this apparent difference.

Its just not really talked about much. We are supposed to do good because it is the right thing to do. Doing good will also bring good to us in this life.

There is no Hell, only a "time out" period for no more then one year. I believe there is a lot of room for personal opinion in the matter. Reincarnation, Christian type heaven, and ressurection at the time of the Messiah are all out there in Jewish thought and belief.

Of course whatever there is to come, one does not need to be Jewish to get into it. In fact we believe non-Jews have an easier time of it.
 
Posted by Minerva (Member # 2991) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Minerva:
quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
quote:
Originally posted by Icarus:
Are there (organized) jews who do not await someone to rebuild the temple?

There certainly is.
Wow.
If you're ever in Jerusalem, you must take the tour of the Temple Institute. It's breathtaking.

I just called my sister who is supposed to spend Shabbos in Jerusalem and asked her to walk over there on Friday morning and give me a report.

She owes me one because she drunk-dialed me last night to tell me that it is cold at the beach in Tel Aviv. I explained to her the concept of "winter."
 
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
Thank you Stephan. So it sounds like potentially many Jews do believe in an afterlife, possibly similar to the Christian conception of Heaven. Is it fair to say that Jews with these beliefs do not believe that one of the Messiah's roles is to pay "the price" for the sins of humanity, and that, without this, achieving or reaching "heaven" is impossible?

-o-

When discussing specifically Jewish conceptions of the Messiah, is it offensive of me to spell the word as I am spelling it, rather than as the Jews in this thread are spelling it?
 
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Icarus:
Thank you Stephan. So it sounds like potentially many Jews do believe in an afterlife, possibly similar to the Christian conception of Heaven. Is it fair to say that Jews with these beliefs do not believe that one of the Messiah's roles is to pay "the price" for the sins of humanity, and that, without this, achieving or reaching "heaven" is impossible?

-o-

When discussing specifically Jewish conceptions of the Messiah, is it offensive of me to spell the word as I am spelling it, rather than as the Jews in this thread are spelling it?

When I say Christian heaven, I mean the whole people playing harps sitting on clouds kind of thing. You are correct, in Judaism there is no need for anyone to be sacrificed for humanity's sins.

I take no offense to it, as you are using it to mean the same thing. Translation is a funny thing. At most you will probably just be informed in the way that Lisa explained the difference.
 
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
May I ask a question?

How do regular Orthodox Jews view those of the Messianic Jewish sect? I mean -- they are Jews by heritage, and many keep some of the holy days by tradition, but they do believe Jesus was the Messiah.

Are they accepted or outcast by other Jews?

Farmgirl
 
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Farmgirl:
May I ask a question?

How do regular Orthodox Jews view those of the Messianic Jewish sect? I mean -- they are Jews by heritage, and many keep some of the holy days by tradition, but they do believe Jesus was the Messiah.

Are they accepted or outcast by other Jews?

Farmgirl

See http://www.jewsforjudaism.org

They are basically seen as Jews who have adopted Christianity. Jews for Jesus was created by one or two branches of Christianity in an attempt to convert the Jews in their belief that Jesus won't come back until all the Jews accept him.

While definitely treated as outcasts by some, many believe it is better to treat them with respect and hope that they will come back to the proper path.

Catholics and many Protestant churches have denouced the organization for it's deceitful practices.
 
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
 
Ic, it is absolutely not offensive. I'm Jewish (and Israeli, so I actually speak fluent Hebrew), and I spelled it just as you did. It's just different ways of spelling the same thing!
 
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Tante Shvester:
We await Moshiach (Messiah). We try to follow the commandments, and to encourage other Jews to do the same to hasten the day when he comes. In the time of Moshiach, the Holy Temple will be rebuilt and animal sacrifices will be made there.

Question for Tante or Lisa or whomever knows: Is there an acknowledged problem with being vegetarian and or an animal rights activist and with working toward the reinstatement of animal sacrifices? That is, does it come up frequently as something to be puzzled through?

Just curious, and I'd be happy to sit on my own curiosity and spin if it is an offensive question to ask. [Smile]
 
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
 
Well I'm not to keen on the idea of animal sacrifices, but if all the other prophecies stared coming true I couldn't really argue with it. I have heard some say that when the Messiah comes Jews will be so pure that sacrifice for forgiveness of sins won't be necessary. I'm not sure though if sacrifice for thankfulness requires animals or not if that is indeed the case.
 
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese:
Is there an acknowledged problem with being vegetarian and or an animal rights activist and with working toward the reinstatement of animal sacrifices? That is, does it come up frequently as something to be puzzled through?

I wouldn't say that it comes up frequently, at least not in observant Jewish circles. You can believe that it is right not to eat animals (and I know observant Jews who are vegetarians), and to have compassion for the poor animals, but still accept that, for whatever reason, G'd has told us that he wants them sacrificed, he put them here on earth so that they would be available for sacrifice, and that if we are going to serve G'd in the way that he tells us to, it will involve animal sacrifice, once the Temple is rebuilt.
 
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by skillery:
quote:
Sanhedrin Rabbis Discuss Sublime, Procedural Issues

:

"...the Sanhedrin was the highest Jewish judicial tribunal in the Land of Israel. Organizers of the current edition stress that they are still in a transitional phase, and that though today's members are all Torah scholars and experts in many secular and scientific fields, every one of them has agreed to step aside the moment a more deserving candidate should step forward."

Are we talking about Levites or the Messiah himself?

Neither. We're talking about rabbis with a greater stature. Levites aren't even an issue. There are plenty of Levites around. My father in law is a Levite. My first cousin is a Kohen. They have no direct relevance to the Sanhedrin.

The rabbis who have taken this great initiative are well aware that they are not necessary the greatest Sages of the generation, by certain standards. Though it's significant that the "greatest Sages of the generation" by most standards haven't bothered themselves to rise to this particular responsibility, so I'm not sure their caveat is necessary.
 
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by skillery:
quote:
2 Chronicles 19
19:4 And Jehoshaphat dwelt at Jerusalem: and he went out again through the people from Beersheba to mount Ephraim, and brought them back unto the LORD God of their fathers.
19:5 And he set judges in the land throughout all the fenced cities of Judah, city by city,
19:6 And said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD, who is with you in the judgment.
19:7 Wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do it: for there is no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.
19:8 Moreover in Jerusalem did Jehoshaphat set of the Levites, and of the priests, and of the chief of the fathers of Israel, for the judgment of the LORD, and for controversies, when they returned to Jerusalem.

Sounds like we might need some Levites for our Sanhedrin.
Can't see why. Levites were the singers in the Temple, and did other jobs there as well. What's the connection to the Sanhedrin?

Lisa
 
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Icarus:
Raia: *snicker*

-o-

Now, I know that belief in an afterlife is not central to Judaism. Does this mean that no groups that consider themselves Jewish believe in an afterlife, or that belief/nonbelief in an afterlife is a non-issue, and people believe whatever feels right to them? Are there "official" Jewish positions on an afterlife?

I am asking because belief in the afterlife seems to be pretty central to the Christian conception of Messiah, and so I'm exploring this apparent difference.

Belief in the afterlife is a major tenet of Judaism. That is certainly the official position. But we don't really dwell on it. As one of our great Sages said, "Be not like servants who serve in order to receive a reward. Rather, be like servants who serve even without promise of a reward. And let the fear/awe of Heaven be upon you."

So yes, we're supposed to bear in mind that God wants us to act in certain ways, and we're supposed to act in those ways because God told us to. But that's not the same as doing things for the sake of rewards vs punishments in the afterlife.
 
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Icarus:
Thank you Stephan. So it sounds like potentially many Jews do believe in an afterlife, possibly similar to the Christian conception of Heaven.

Not at all similar, I think. Good people and bad people alike go there. We don't have Hell, and the afterlife isn't necessarily Heaven, either.

quote:
Originally posted by Icarus:
Is it fair to say that Jews with these beliefs do not believe that one of the Messiah's roles is to pay "the price" for the sins of humanity, and that, without this, achieving or reaching "heaven" is impossible?

Of course not. God was very clear about that. Every person is responsible for his own sins. It's repeated over and over in the Torah and the words of His prophets.

And the "sins of humanity" would be a null concept in Judaism. We don't believe that people are inherently sinful. The idea of "original sin" itself is a really outrageous thought to us.

As far as "reaching heaven", all you have to do is die. Everyone does it eventually. There may be certain people who've transgressed in such a way that they don't even get that, but just cease to exist when they die, but you'd have to work really hard to achieve that, I think, and it may be that even those people continue on.

quote:
Originally posted by Icarus:
When discussing specifically Jewish conceptions of the Messiah, is it offensive of me to spell the word as I am spelling it, rather than as the Jews in this thread are spelling it?

It's like Hanukkah. The word is spelled mem-shin-yud-het. Any transliteration works. Mashiach, Moshiach, Messiah, etc. Just don't do it in Greek, and we're cool. <grin>
 
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Farmgirl:
May I ask a question?

Please.

quote:
Originally posted by Farmgirl:
How do regular Orthodox Jews view those of the Messianic Jewish sect?

With pity and horror, for the most part.

Understand, the organization known as "Jews for Jesus" is made up mostly of non-Jews. It's a missionary organization devoted to deceiving Jews whose education is lacking or who are otherwise vulnerable (emotionally, etc.) into adopting Christian beliefs.

But yes, there are Jews who have either been deceived in this way, or for other reasons have lost hold of what it means to be Jewish.

It's one area of commonality between Torah Jews and Jews who don't accept the Torah. So-called messianic Jews are utterly outside the pale. They are idolators.

quote:
Originally posted by Farmgirl:
I mean -- they are Jews by heritage, and many keep some of the holy days by tradition, but they do believe Jesus was the Messiah.

Are they accepted or outcast by other Jews?

Outcast. They are Jews, and like all Jews who do wrong, they can always repent. But so long as they sin so gravely, they have no place amongst us.
 
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese:
quote:
Originally posted by Tante Shvester:
We await Moshiach (Messiah). We try to follow the commandments, and to encourage other Jews to do the same to hasten the day when he comes. In the time of Moshiach, the Holy Temple will be rebuilt and animal sacrifices will be made there.

Question for Tante or Lisa or whomever knows: Is there an acknowledged problem with being vegetarian and or an animal rights activist and with working toward the reinstatement of animal sacrifices? That is, does it come up frequently as something to be puzzled through?

Just curious, and I'd be happy to sit on my own curiosity and spin if it is an offensive question to ask. [Smile]

It's not at all offensive. There are Orthodox Jews who are vegetarians. Some of them hope that maybe something will happen so that the sacrificial service won't be necessary. Hope springs eternal, after all. I know some Orthodox vegetarians who simply say that when the time comes, if they have to eat meat, they have to eat meat. They'll eat what they have to, and not a bite more. And that's fine.
 
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
quote:
You can believe that it is right not to eat animals (and I know observant Jews who are vegetarians)
A question from my lawyer's hive mind:

If I recall correctly, some of the laws about food are worded as certain animals being given for use as food. Even if I'm not remembering correctly, it's pretty clear that God specifically has stated that it is not wrong to eat certain animals. How can this be reconciled with not thinking it right to eat animals?

I'm not asking if Jews are required to eat meat - it seems fairly clear from what I've learned here and elsewhere that no one is required to partake of all kosher food. So a vegetarian Orthodox Jew doesn't confuse me. But an Orthodox Jew who thinks it's not right to eat animals confuses me.
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Good question, Dags. [Smile]

There is generally no obligation to eat meat (except as part of bringing certain types of sacrifices). In fact, Adam and Chava were vegetarians. Only after the Flood was Noach (and his descendants) given permission to eat meat.

A thorough examination of the issue.
 
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Good link. I especially liked:

quote:
Judaism's permitting animals for food serves as a pragmatic hedge against such extremism: constantly reminding man of his unique status among God's creation.
And this:

quote:
Judaism accepts the idea of a vegetarian diet, though dependent on one's intention:

Vegetarianism based on the idea that we have no moral right to kill animals is not an acceptable Jewish view.

answers the other half of my pondering very nicely.

Thanks, rivka!
 
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
What's the connection to the Sanhedrin?

One of your articles talks about a newly-formed group calling themselves the Sanhedrin. This group recognizes that G'd may choose individuals more suited for the position, at which time they will gladly step aside.

The scripture says that Jehosaphat chose the judges who comprised the Sanhedrin from among priests, Levites, and heads of household.

We have priests and heads of household even today, but where are we going to find Levites? They're dispersed aren't they?
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Nope. Lots of Levites. I probably know a dozen or so offhand.

For starters, somewhere between half and two-thirds of all Jewish males with the last names "Levy," "Levi," "Levitansky," "Levin," etc. are probably Levi'im (Levites).
 
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Dagonee:
quote:
You can believe that it is right not to eat animals (and I know observant Jews who are vegetarians)
A question from my lawyer's hive mind:

If I recall correctly, some of the laws about food are worded as certain animals being given for use as food. Even if I'm not remembering correctly, it's pretty clear that God specifically has stated that it is not wrong to eat certain animals. How can this be reconciled with not thinking it right to eat animals?

There are precedents. For example, in Deuteronomy, we read about the laws of a captive woman in time of war. The Sages tell us that this isn't optimum, but that God knows how the blood runs hot during war, and rather than command something that was virtually impossible to obey, He gave us a framework in which the bad stuff could be minimized.

Similarly, giving a divorce when necessary is actually fulfilling a commandment. But needless to say, it isn't one that any of us would like to be in a position to have to carry out.

That said, God also makes it pretty clear that He doesn't see eating meat as immoral, and I have a personal problem with those who want to position themselves as more righteous than God. That's my personal opinion. There isn't technically anything preventing an Orthodox Jew from being a vegetarian. And I have run into Orthodox Jews who are vegetarians solely because they believe the current methods of raising animals for food are cruel. I can sort of see that, but most vegetarians seem to go a bit beyond that.

quote:
Originally posted by Dagonee:
I'm not asking if Jews are required to eat meat - it seems fairly clear from what I've learned here and elsewhere that no one is required to partake of all kosher food. So a vegetarian Orthodox Jew doesn't confuse me. But an Orthodox Jew who thinks it's not right to eat animals confuses me.

It confuses me as well.
 
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
quote:
Nope. Lots of Levites. I probably know a dozen or so offhand.

For starters, somewhere between half and two-thirds of all Jewish males with the last names "Levy," "Levi," "Levitansky," "Levin," etc. are probably Levi'im (Levites).

Does membership in the 12 houses or tribes (I hope that's not offensive, I'm not sure what the right word is) run along matriarchal or patriarchal lines? Can a person belong to only one house?
 
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by skillery:
quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
What's the connection to the Sanhedrin?

One of your articles talks about a newly-formed group calling themselves the Sanhedrin. This group recognizes that G'd may choose individuals more suited for the position, at which time they will gladly step aside.
Actually, I don't believe they said that God will choose greater individuals. That's not really God's job.

quote:
Originally posted by skillery:
The scripture says that Jehosaphat chose the judges who comprised the Sanhedrin from among priests, Levites, and heads of household.

Ah, I see. The thing is, Levites, and the subset of Levites who were the priests (Kohanim) didn't generally have land to cultivate. As a result, they were most often the teachers and sages at the time. But it needn't be that way, and it isn't nowadays.

quote:
Originally posted by skillery:
We have priests and heads of household even today, but where are we going to find Levites? They're dispersed aren't they?

<laugh> All Kohanim are Levites, by definition. But there are many, many Jews who we know to be of Levitical descent.
 
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Thanks for your comments on the vegetarian thing, SL.
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Dagonee:
Does membership in the 12 houses or tribes (I hope that's not offensive, I'm not sure what the right word is) run along matriarchal or patriarchal lines? Can a person belong to only one house?

Tribes is fine (houses might be confusing); the actual word is shevatim (singular, shevet). Membership in a shevet is by patrilineal descent. One to a customer. [Wink]
 
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Thank you for the clarification. Must one be Jewish (i.e., must ones mother be Jewish) to be a member of a tribe?
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Yes. And technically, someone whose mother is Jewish but whose father is not is tribeless. But I have a vague memory that there is a way to get "adopted" -- I think.

Anyway, with the exception of males who are members of the tribe of Levi (a subset of whom are descendants of Aharon), there is not much practical concern with knowing what tribe one is from. (Currently, at least. Most of it has to do with traditional inheritance of specific parts of the Land of Israel.) Many people (like me) are not even sure which tribe they belong to. (Although the majority of non-Levi'im are from Yehudah.)
 
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Thanks for the additional info.

For the roles which require Levi membership, have records been kept, or are there presumably a lot of people who are Levi'im but can't prove it and are thus excluded from those roles?

(If I'm getting too questiony, just let me know.)
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
quote:
For the roles which require Levi membership, have records been kept, or are there presumably a lot of people who are Levi'im but can't prove it and are thus excluded from those roles?
Yes, and yes. [Wink]

Families kept records, often. Communities did as well. But there is a fair bit of evidence that there probably are many who rightfully are members of the tribe but cannot prove it.

Yet another reason we wait for Moshiach, who will clarify such issues.
 
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
The tradition and knowledge is passed down father to son. In shul, three times per week, we read from the Torah. The first one to get called up for this is a Cohain (Priestly Class), the second one is the Levite. Generally, the congregation is also aware of who is a Levite.
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Out of interest, how will you recognize the Messiah in order to build the temple if one of the qualifications of the Messiah is building the temple? Does the first person to build the temple without pissing off all the other Jews on Earth win?
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Sort of. [Wink] There is a status of "potential Moshiach" -- and we believe there is (at least) one such individual in every generation. (There is a list of requirements that must be met. )

But we would not know for certain that any specific individual was actually Moshiach unless and until he ushered in an age of peace, complete with a rebuilt Beis haMikdash. Dying before completing this task knocks you out of the running.
 
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
 
starLisa:

quote:
I don't believe they said that God will choose greater individuals. That's not really God's job.
I think we should give God some say in the matter. Perhaps the fact that He allows a certain person to live and draw breath and to gain priestly wisdom at all is job enough. Perhaps the fact that these Sanhedrin fellows were of one mind and able to form a consortium at all is sign enough of God's approval.

Thanks for your responses to my questions by the way.
 
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by skillery:
starLisa:

quote:
I don't believe they said that God will choose greater individuals. That's not really God's job.
I think we should give God some say in the matter.
Um... not really. I mean, God is the Creator of everything, and He has an implicit say just by being able to, you know, blow up anyone He wants gone. But when it comes to this, it really isn't for him to say. I'm not being flip, either.

quote:
Originally posted by skillery:
Perhaps the fact that He allows a certain person to live and draw breath and to gain priestly wisdom at all is job enough.

<nod> Except that we aren't talking about priestly wisdom here.

The Sages teach that God gave three crowns to Israel. The crown of kingship is in the hands of David and his descendents. The crown of the priesthood is in the hands of Aaron and his descendents. And the crown of Torah, which is above both of those, was given to all of us. The Sanhedrin is that. There are and were Kohanim who were great Sages and scholars, but being Kohanim has nothing to do with it.

The Sages also teach that a mamzer (illegitimate, "bastard") who is a Torah scholar is preferred to a High Priest who isn't.

quote:
Originally posted by skillery:
Perhaps the fact that these Sanhedrin fellows were of one mind and able to form a consortium at all is sign enough of God's approval.

Thanks for your responses to my questions by the way.

No problem.
 
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
Yes. And technically, someone whose mother is Jewish but whose father is not is tribeless. But I have a vague memory that there is a way to get "adopted" -- I think.

I'd be curious in finding out about the being "adopted" part. I was raised being told I was Kohein, only to find out I wasn't because of my father not being Jewish when I started doing my own research. Though it does not appear to be a big deal anyways.
 
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
I don't believe there's any way to be "adopted" into a tribe. Converts and the children of non-Jewish fathers are tribeless. That's why the Torah is constantly going on about not oppressing the "convert, orphan and widow". The word "ger" is often mistranslated as "stranger", but it doesn't mean that; it means convert.

There was a camper up at Ramah when I was on staff who claimed to be a Levi. The first week of camp, all the kids fill out cards with their Hebrew name, their father's Hebrew name, and whether they're a Kohen, Levi or Yisrael. For purposes of being called up to the Torah. He'd put down that he was a Levi.

One day I was talking with him generally, and he mentioned that his father was a convert. I did a little double take, and said, "But you said you're a Levi." He said, "Yeah, my Mom's father is a Levi, and they didn't want me to have to be just a Yisrael, so they said I could be a Levi."

Needless to say, that didn't go over really well.

There's a story I've seen told in various versions.
quote:
Once, so the story goes, a young man went up to his Rabbi and said, "Please Rabbi, I want to be a Kohen (Priest). Will you convert me into one?" The Rabbi told him that he could not oblige. He approached others and got the same response every time, "Sorry, I do not have the power to help you!" Desperate, he approached a rogue, who was known to be amenable if tempted with a very substantial "donation"...

"OK", he finally said, after agreeing on the price. "Trust me; I'll turn you into a Kohen." So he performed a home made "conversion ceremony". After the cash changed hands, the well-satisfied young man got ready to go.

Tapping him on the shoulder, he asked him, "Just one thing. Why did you want to become a Kohen?"

"Well, it’s like this – just between us, you see. My father was a Kohen, my grandfather was a Kohen, and before he died, my father told me that his grandfather was also a Kohen..."


 
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
You want to know a super cool thing about Kohanim? They have been able to genetically test to confirm that they really do descend from a common ancestor. When I read about that several years ago, it just knocked my socks off.
 
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
 
I heard about that, very cool.
 
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
I showed a friend of mine the thread and this is his reply.

quote:
wow... I want to cry.. ok, first you have to understand something, the
Jewish people have received a "hardening" of sorts, which the old testament
says itself would happen. God said "see, I lay a stone in Zion, which causes
men to stumble" in Isaiah.. this is Messiah.

ok, here are all the old testament verses that speak of messiah... but just
before I give them to you, you should think about another thing here too.
armageddon in old testament and new testament books gives us a full picture.
A ruler will come (who will be called the anti christ, and all Christians,
and Muslims agree that he will be Jewish) He will "he will confirm a
covenant with the many, for seven years". He will make peace, between
muslims and Jews. He will rebuild the temple as a symbol of peace, not just
for Jews, but for all people. There will be 10 kings of 10 kingdoms that
will stand together as the worlds greatest.. 3 of them will "fall away" and
the "smaller horn" (anti christ) will become greater than all of these. 3
and a half years after the rededication of the temple by the Jew (oh ya, he
is going to claim to be the messiah... ain't that convenient) he will
desecrate it and people will see the abomination that causes desolation
standing where it aught not. he will Sacrifice a pig on the altar in the
temple and "Sit in the temple of God and declare to the whole world that He
is GOD." At this point Daniel in the O.T. says "Desolations have been
decreed... war will continue until the end"

What I am saying is that the jewish people, who are truly God's beloved, are
setting themselves up for a fall, and they don't even realize it.. infact,
if you were to tell them this I imagine they would be indignant and
insulted.. I feel like crying for them.. used a verse from Isaiah to
describe them. you'll recognize it

37Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence,
they still would not believe in him.
"38This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:
"Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"[a]

39For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:
40"He has blinded their eyes
and deadened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them."[b]

nowhere does it say that Messiah will build a third temple, infact it only
said things about a new Covenant from Messiah (Jeremiah 31:31-37). The guy
who said anything about the third temple being built by messiah is a liar.
He's not doing the research himself, he's being indoctrinated with what
sounds reasonable (and to a Jew, without the new testament, that does indeed
sound reasonable) oh, by the way, if there is no concept of Hell then why
weren't the jews confused when Jesus made references to it? oh, and of
course you'll have to explain Zechariah 9:11..... and what christians
believe in a heaven with harps and clouds?? oh right, those darn catholics
again. (rolling eyes sarcastically, for a touch of humour)

anyways, here are some Messianic prophesies, in order. use biblegateway.com
to check em all yourself.


1 chronicles 17:1-15 (*10-15)
psalm 2
Genesis 49:10-12
Zechariah 9:9-13
psalm 72
Deuteronomy 18:14-22+34:10-12
Jeremiah 33:14-16
Jeremiah 23:5-6
Isaiah 11
Isaiah 4:2-5
Isaiah 7:10-14
Isaiah 9:1-7
Zechariah 12:10-13:1
(not a war leader, Isaiah 9:5, Zechariah 4:6, Hosea 1:7)
(he will proclaim peace to the nations, and all nations will be blessed
through him)
Micah 5:2
Isaiah 49:1-6
Isaiah 42:1-9
Daniel 7:13-14
here's a tough one to understand : Daniel 9:24-27
also understand this, many of the jews, have been hardened and much of
prophesy is still under a seal, so that we can't fully understand all things
yet (Daniel 5-13)
Zechariah 9:13+ Isaiah 49:6 should tell you that the Gentiles are the ones
who will bring the salvation of the anointed king to all ends of the earth.
now... what else off the top of my head?? hmm.. ah yes, of course
this has nothing really to do with the christ, but let's see if you can
solve it Malachi 4:5-6

also remember, scripture thus far has let you know who he is, that he was
God, that he was LORD, that he was going to be born in Bethlehem, that he
has sovereing power, that he has the words of God in his mouth, that he will
"free jewish prisoners from the waterless pit, because of the blood of God's
covenant with them", and that he will endure as long as the sun and as long
as the moon, and that his days are the days of eternity... let's go on to
the cool one

Isaiah 52:13-53:12 suffering of the servant, and the Glory of the servant


btw. the messiah was to be a messiah bringing a new covenant as replacing,
and equally as pinnacle as the one Moses set down (Jeremiah 31:31-37). the
need of this new covenant was so that salvation could be received by all
nations (have you ever read Leviticus? Try Leviticus 19. anyways, I'm sure
you get the point, also, that Jews saw sin with the price tag of death. "the
life of an animal is in the blood". so they did this, and of course Moses
killed a perfect lamb and people put the blood on their doors to excape from
their deaths, Jesus was killed on the passover as prophesy would have it.
Also read Psalm 22 and you will see that Jesus quotes verse 1 of this in
aramaic, on the cross, and his dying words were "It Is DONE"... read the
whole psalm until the end.. oh and keep in mind that Cruxifiction was not
yet historically introduced to the Jewish people.. So he was supposed to
come, bring the end of the world, live forever, Dye for our sins, rule on
Davids throne, reject the Jews as his priests but make a sword of sorts from
a combination of (Zion and Greece)'s descendants, and have the Gentiles
bring his salvation to the ends of the earth. let alone the impossibilities
of Identifying the messiah now. Seeing as Daniel gives us the exact time of
his coming, and when he would be "cut off" is around 32AD, even though there
are seven years unaccounted for (that's the tribulation, that's coming
soon), that no Jew today can trace their lineage perfectly back to David,
and so prove it was his descendant, nor could any other man I know of be
born of Virgin birth. Given the evidence, there is absolutely no reason to
deny that Jesus was the Christ, Messiah of God spoken of in the Torah and
Prophets. Jews today are hurt by christianity. They see it as a Greaco-Roman
mutilation of their religion, and all they see historically is the church
hating them and persecuting them, and all the while, they are waiting for
this coming salvation, this coming deliverance promised for them... their
eyes see, but they do not perceive, even though it is clear as day and right
in front of them.. What I'm saying is that their beliefs are based on
interpreting the old testament, while ignoring the new testament and
treating as false what their fathers treated as false.. if there were no new
testament... then they would be arguably in the right.. but since their is,
and it is obvious that they have chosen to ignore it because their people
previously have, their fathers, and Jews do consider it a disgrace to become
a christian, then they have neglected to take into account the truth of the
one, Messiah. Don't worry though, a remnant will remain before God, always,
there will never fail to be Priests before the Lord. And Revelation tells us
that when Zechariah 12:11, and Isaiah 11 are fully completed 144,000 will be
sealed for the Lord (Revelation 7).

I feel broken over these people, I would long to speak to them myself, face
to face, to show them that I say these things with love.. all while abiding
in me a frustration because of their stubborness to hear. But God Calls them
stubborn in the Old testament and warns about this kind of stuff.. you know
what, I'd like you to Read Romans 9:30-11:36, and also Romans 2:17-3:2 to
see how Paul, a devout Jew saw his people. oh, and if you want his statement
of faith you can look for it here Acts 25:23-26:32 or 9:1-19. I suggest you
read the first one, but if you want, read both.

well, that's all for now, I'll talk to you later then. Shalom

... also as a side note here, if Jews don't believe in an afterlife then
Where did Enoch Go? Genesis 5:21-24, seeing as all the others end with "and
then he died".. ? and did they just completely miss chapters 1 and 2 that
says that God created Heaven and Earth, and all that was in them? And
finally, if they didn't believe in hell how come the pseudepigraphical books
such as 1 enoch are riddled with afterlife references and an apparent
obbsesion with the afterlife???


 
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
 
Do we really want to start a scripture debate? I know Lisa is up to the challenge, and I am always happy to study up on how to refute this stuff.

By the way he obviously didn't read the thread because it has been clearly stated several times that Jews do believe in an afterlife.
 
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
He's thoroughly wacked out, I'm sorry to say.

Personally, I'm neither indignant nor insulted. My reaction is pretty much the reaction I'd have to someone standing in the middle of the sidewalk and screaming about conspiracy theories. Sort of an, "Oh. Hmmm, let's just move to the other side of the street before this guy gets violent."

In any case, this thread is called "On the Messiah in Judaism". I think we're all aware that Christians have a somewhat different view, but it doesn't seem any more relevant to this specific thread than what Buddhists or Taoists or Zoroastrians might have to say on the subject.
 
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
I agree.

Wow.

That post comes pretty close to violating the TOS, actually.

[Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stephan:
Do we really want to start a scripture debate? I know Lisa is up to the challenge, and I am always happy to study up on how to refute this stuff.

Not a chance. Not here. I couldn't do it without mortally offending a lot (if not all) of the Christians here. And I'm certainly not going to address a second hand rant.

No offensive, Blayne, but your friend doesn't know what he's talking about. "Hardening", my heinie. He's probably spent too much time reading the "Left Behind" books.
 
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
quote:
That post comes pretty close to violating the TOS, actually
Oh, you agreeing with starLisa on something isn't that bad, Icarus.
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
Not to intrude but my head would explode if I didn't say, just for the record, that I think Blayne's friends views are bizarre and frightening.
 
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
My reaction to them was more like [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
Honestly, if not for hatrack I wouldn't know that there are people who believe that stuff.
 
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
Not a chance. Not here. I couldn't do it without mortally offending a lot (if not all) of the Christians here. And I'm certainly not going to address a second hand rant.


I agree. I'm just curious as to Blayne's purpose for posting that.
 
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
 
dkw:

I see you are a Methodist pastor. My fiance was raised Methodist and still believes. She has agreed to a Reform Jewish wedding, and to not raise our future children Christian. I feel bad sometime because I feel like I took a part of her belief system away, even though it was her choice. If she were to start attending church would she be ostracized in any way by the church? She was also scared away by one church she attended whose Pastor was somewhat of a screamer.
 
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Stephan, that sounds like it could be an interesting thread. There's a little button up at the top of the page that says "New Topic".
 
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
Honestly, if not for hatrack I wouldn't know that there are people who believe that stuff.

Really? I see it all over the place. It's part and parcel with the "In case of Rapture..." bumper stickers.

(My favorite variant on those is, "In case of Rapture, can I have your car?")

Back in high school, I read a book called The Seven Last Years, by a woman named Carol Balizet. It's actually a fun book, though most Jews I know would probably be unable to read it.

She sort of did in a single volume (which I own, and have probably read 4-5 times) what Lehaye and Jenkins took 10 interminable books to do with their Left Behind series. I read the first one of those, and aside from the mediocre writing, the pace was so slow I wanted to throw the book across the room.

And NBC did this "Revelations" miniseries, and, well, this stuff is pretty much all over the place. I mean, you have people with timelines marked out on their walls in magic marker.

And Jews... well, they have this love-hate thing about us. On the one hand, they need 144,000 of us to go over to the dark side (sorry), but on the other hand, we're supposed to be suffering miserably as a sign that we blew it 2000 years ago, and the reality is, we're doing pretty okay, and some of them get irked at that.

I expect that love-hate thing to tilt towards hate as the Bnei Noach movement gets more and more into gear. A lot of former born-again types have taken that road. Jim Long, who wrote "The Riddle of the Exodus", is an excellent example of how that's happening.
 
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by starLisa:
Stephan, that sounds like it could be an interesting thread. There's a little button up at the top of the page that says "New Topic".

heh, actually maybe i'll just email him.
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
I work at a university, sing in Irish bars, do some peace activism, attend a very liberal Catholic Church and work in theatre. I live a very sheltered life.
 
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Sounds cool. There's an Irish bar about a block from where I live, at Touhy and California. Do you ever sing there?
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
Hmmm. Don't think so. What's it called? I sing mostly downtown, but at Nevin's here in Evanston sometimes.

Feel free to e-mail me if we don't want to get too far off topic.

And I do know these people exist, I just don't travel in the same circles. I sometimes seek them out so as not to become too complacent.
 
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stephan:
I'm just curious as to Blayne's purpose for posting that.

Oh, Blayne is a touch inscrutable. He marches to his own percussion section. I just went [Roll Eyes] and moved on.
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
I might have, too, except for that phrase "all Christians". As we know saying "all Christian anything" makes Kate cranky.
 
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
All Christians and no play make Kate cranky.

All Christians and no play make Kate cranky.

All Christians and no play make Kate cranky.

All Christians and no play make Kate yanky.

All Christians and no play make Kate cranky.

All Christians and no play make Kate go crazy.

All Christians and no play make Kate cranky.

All Christians and no play make Kate cranky.

All Christians and no play make Kate something something . . .
 
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
 
...beat Icky about the head?

Now let's be nice and let folks get back to the Messiah stuff.
 
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
[ROFL]

I'd be curious to see a list of Scripture references that Jews consider to be "messianic."
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
quote:
heh, actually maybe i'll just email him.
DKW = Dana K. Washerlastnameonceuponatime
Her. [Smile]
 
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
I showed my friend the thread, he read it and he sent me his views and I posted it. However, while I generally respect Hatrack I'm somewhat midly surprised that there hasn't been a single attempt to refute his view on this matter, I respect my friend alot he treats me like a human being and I hang out at the CF club because I can relax enjoy a good debate and not worry about being judged or etc etc.

My firend as far as I can tell quoted scripture I dont have a very good understanding of it since I'm not particularily religious so I ask, is it possible that there can be a counter arguement to his arguement and not just "pfft /ignore".

Now the Left Behind series, what correlation is there exactly? All I know from the 10 minutes I watched of 1 movie is that there's this person who with the newly formed "Global Community" gets the world to disarm and takes over or soemthing close ot it I never finished it.
 
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
I hang out at the CF club

Cystic Fibrosis Club?
 
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
Christian Fellowship. They're nice people. Just opposite of the Jewish Club and the Muslin club is down the hall. All nice people but there doesnt appear to have been enough Jews interested in the club to actually open the club sadly.
 
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
Ah. I see. Never mind. In nurse lingo, CF=Cystic Fibrosis.
 
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
your a nurse?
 
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
If you click my name at the left, you can see my profile and learn more about me!
quote:
Profile for Tante Shvester
Member Status: Member
Member Number: 8202
Registered: June 08, 2005
Posts: 5548
Email Address: Click here to email this user
Location: New Jersey
Occupation: Nurse
Homepage: http://tinyurl.com/9xbdk
Interests: Mitzvos!

Or you can read it right here!
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Darnit, Tom.

GET OUT of my head!
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz:
I'd be curious to see a list of Scripture references that Jews consider to be "messianic."

Here are some.
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
quote:
while I generally respect Hatrack I'm somewhat midly surprised that there hasn't been a single attempt to refute his view on this matter
That's because his view is ridiculous, Blayne, and to treat it seriously would be to treat it with more respect than it deserves. Moreover, the people who are most qualified to discuss why it's ridiculous would have to tread carefully to avoid insulting other potential readers, since Scriptural interpretation is often a matter of religious doctrine. And since he's not even a member of this site, it's not worth the risk.

------

As for the Left Behind reference: your friend is an apocalypse nut. The Left Behind series is a very poorly written but sadly very successful series that panders to that demographic while pretending to scriptural authority.
 
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
Thanks rivka!
 
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
Aren't most Christians apocalypse nuts? I've seen god knows how many christians pretty much all say "oh the world won't last any longer then... [insert random number from 50-1000 years].

*sigh* I geuss I simply don't understand the religious nature of the matter enough. And probly never will.
 
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
Stephen, your finacee would not be ostracized in any United Methodist church I have been in. In the vast majority of UM churches she would be welcomed at whatever level she chose to participate. In fact, one of the organists at the church I serve is part of a mixed-faith (Jewish-Methodist) couple.

However -- it's always possible that a particular congregation or pastor won't approve. That would be a local thing not based on anything official in the denomination. And there might be some church members who would try to convert you and/or the kids if they got the chance. Most of them, though, will just be curious. They might ask you to come speak to an adult Sunday School class about Jewish beliefs.
 
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
quote:
Aren't most Christians apocalypse nuts? I've seen god knows how many christians pretty much all say "oh the world won't last any longer then... [insert random number from 50-1000 years].

Blayne..NO! Absolutely NOT!

Granted, there are denominations that seem to make a particular issue of the end times, and the number of days between now and THEN. But this is not true of most Christian denominations.

Let alone most Christians.
 
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
Ic.
 
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
BB:

If you are are getting that impression from people you are hanging around with, might I suggest finding some other people to interact with. Especially if you are interested in learning about Christianity.

Even if not. I got the impression this is some sort of campus group. Is that right? Some ...most...of these groups are probably just fine. A bunch of fun people who wanted to start a group for Christians.

But there are some real nut jobs around campuses, and some of them start quasi-religious organizations. They are often quite charismatic. Friendly and accepting, etc., etc. Some of them are extremely dangerous individuals and groups.

They very often have a lot to say about the end of the world.

Not every religious person concerned about the end times is a nut job, necessarily, but I get VERY worried about the ones who seem to crop up with disturbing frequency around college campuses.
 
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
quote:
My understanding, based on study primarily rooted in Christianity, is that Messiah was a Jewish concept.
From what I've read in history classes, Zoroastrian concepts of the Messiah predate Jewish and Christian concepts by several centuries.

See: Saoshyant .
 
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
My friend is most definatly NOT a nutjob in any way shape or form, just doesn't think for whatever reason he found in the bible that humanity will survive very long. He doesnt spread it he only said it one or twice when I talk about Isaac Asimov or scifi.

The "group" is the official Christian Fellowship for John Abbott College just as there is a Muslim, jewish, pagan, anime, outdoor adventure clubs + a school newspaper.

They're very nice people, moreso then the anime/pagan (they share the room) club which talk about me behind my back [Mad] .

I dont wanna learn about christianity except as a means of learning how to debunk creationalism. I just simply like getting into these discussions though just for their intellectual value.
 
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
quote:
My understanding, based on study primarily rooted in Christianity, is that Messiah was a Jewish concept.
From what I've read in history classes, Zoroastrian concepts of the Messiah predate Jewish and Christian concepts by several centuries.

See: Saoshyant .

That might actually be a precursor to the modifications that Christians made to the original concept. Zoroastrianism and Mithraism, while opposing one another, are from the same region, and Constantine was certainly into the latter.

But neither the Zoroastrian or Christian ideas of "saviors" have any parallel in Judaism.
 
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
My friend is most definatly NOT a nutjob in any way shape or form, just doesn't think for whatever reason he found in the bible that humanity will survive very long. He doesnt spread it he only said it one or twice when I talk about Isaac Asimov or scifi.

Nutjobs don't have to drool, Blayne. And they don't have to be nutjobs about everything. I'm sure that many people here on Hatrack think I'm a nutjob, at least when it comes to certain issues, and I'm sure that by their standards, I am.

It's not a nice thing to say, but the guy's rant was kind of incoherant, you know? Maybe refer him to the Jews for Judaism site. They've been fencing with missionaries for a long time, and all of his garble will probably be answered there. It's just... after 2000 years, it gets kind of tiring. You know?

quote:
Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
They're very nice people, moreso then the anime/pagan (they share the room) club which talk about me behind my back [Mad] .

Cleancut and all. I know. We had the Inter-Varsity Christian Fellowship when I was in college. They're quite convinced that everyone but themselves are going to burn in hellfire for all eternity. The nicer of them regret that.

quote:
Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
I dont wanna learn about christianity except as a means of learning how to debunk creationalism. I just simply like getting into these discussions though just for their intellectual value.

Fair enough. But it's new to you. It's tedious to some of us, and there are resources for that stuff.
 
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
 
Blayne, one thing I recommend is to read those verses yourself, and the verses leading up to them. Form your own conclusions. Some of those verses when read as a single sentence can easily lead one to think they are a prophecy about Jesus. When reading the surrounding verses and chapters you can see how they have been taken out of context by some.

Lisa is right, there is a lot of information on the web. Another Jewish resourse besides Jews for Judaism is www.messiahtruth.com.
 
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
kk. I understand.
 
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
 
Its "Creationism," and ironically it is based on interpretations of originally Jewish Scripture; having no basis in the Christian New Testament.
 
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Tante Shvester:
You want to know a super cool thing about Kohanim? They have been able to genetically test to confirm that they really do descend from a common ancestor. When I read about that several years ago, it just knocked my socks off.

Saw in the Washington Post this morning that 60% of Ashkenazi women have been found to descend from 1 of 4 women.
 
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stephan:
Saw in the Washington Post this morning that 60% of Ashkenazi women have been found to descend from 1 of 4 women.

Sarah, Rivka, Rachel, and Leah!
 
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Tante Shvester:
quote:
Originally posted by Stephan:
Saw in the Washington Post this morning that 60% of Ashkenazi women have been found to descend from 1 of 4 women.

Sarah, Rivka, Rachel, and Leah!
Except... unless Rachel and Leah were half-sisters, you'd think they'd have come up with three women, no? I'm going to posit Ruth as the fourth.
 
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
 
Well the article said they come from different times, one of which was about 2000 years ago.
 
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
quote:
I'm going to posit Ruth as the fourth.
Sounds fine to me!
 
Posted by Shmuel (Member # 7586) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Tante Shvester:
quote:
Originally posted by Stephan:
Saw in the Washington Post this morning that 60% of Ashkenazi women have been found to descend from 1 of 4 women.

Sarah, Rivka, Rachel, and Leah!
Rachel, Leah, Bilha, Zilpa seems more likely. (Descendants of all the above would also have Sarah and Rivka as ancestors.)

[ETA: I'd missed Stephan's followup about them living in different times. Never mind!]
 
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
 
Wouldn't Rachel, Leah, and Sara have a common female ancestor? Were Leah and Rachel cousins of Isaac on Sara or Abraham's side?
 
Posted by Minerva (Member # 2991) on :
 
When I was in college, the Intervarsity Christian Fellowship people were...aggressive missionaries. They once dropped off pamplets when a bunch of us were lighting candles and playing dreidel in a dorm kitchen. That takes some chutzpah.

Of course, that was one group at one school, so I can't make a general statement.

Oh, and they once put some literature about promiscuity on one of my friend's doors because she spent the night alone with a man and one of them saw it.
 
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
I like the story of Ruth, from the perspective of Isaac Asimov, basically it means you shouldn't be racist or prejudiced.
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
quote:
I like the story of Ruth, from the perspective of Isaac Asimov, basically it means you shouldn't be racist or prejudiced.
*blink* Huh? Is Isaac Asimov now an authority on the Bible?
 
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
He did an article on it in one of his science books, one of the ones that have several articles together. This one also mentions how books make the best tape players and his trip to the bahamas.
 
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
quote:
I dont wanna learn about christianity except as a means of learning how to debunk creationalism. I just simply like getting into these discussions though just for their intellectual value.
You might find you get much more intellectual value out of discussions in which you are not merely seeking ammunition for a personal cause.
 
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
*blink* Huh? Is Isaac Asimov now an authority on the Bible?

Asimov, I believe, felt that he was an authority on everything. His bibliography includes several books on the Bible.
 
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Well, yes. But what he thought he was an authority on and what he actually was an authority on are two different things. I've never had a theology class cite Asimov to me. [Smile]
 
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
I completely agree. I just think that his bibliography is a hoot. History, literature. ALL the sciences, theology, whatever. If he had read an article about it, he figured he was an expert, and might as well write a book so that everyone else would have the benefit of his expertise. I was hugely impressed with him and his out-sized opus when I was, what? in 5th grade. Now, not so much so.
 
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
*GASP* *SHARP INTACK OF BREATH* *EXPLODES*

Asimov is the God of Science Fiction. I've read alot of his quasi personal science articles and I think I've learned more from then from 8 years in Government Education.
 
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
Hey! What's all this schmutz laying around here? Oh! Eww! Blayne asploded.

Anyone got a mop?
 
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
"A skeleton walks into a bar and asks the bartender for a beer and a mop."
 
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
A naked man walks into a bar. The bartender says "Hey -- we can't serve you. You're not wearing anything."

The man goes out to his car and gets his jumper cables and deftly wraps and drapes them over his exposed parts. He returns to the bar.

"Now can you serve me?"

"OK. But don't start anything up."
 
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
A sandwich walks into a bar. The bartender says, "Sorry, we don't serve food here."

Rene Descartes walks into a bar. The bartender asks him, "Can I get you a beer?" Descarte says, "I think not," and disappears.
 
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
A priest, a rabbi, and an imam walk into a bar. The bartender asks, "Is this some kind of a joke?"
 
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
Wow. You win.
 
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
[Big Grin] Lisa, I have never, ever, ever heard you use those words!
 
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
<laugh> There's a first time for everything.
 
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
Oh I can beat those! My Professor in College is Jewish so he told me this joke, apparently he married a Quebecois Catholic woman and was in her Church with her one day and the other people in the congregation are all asking why doesn't he convert to Catholism and etc etc, and his reply is: "Well, the thing is is that there's only one other Jew in the room and he's nailed against the wall."

Another joke from my highschool teacher is this: "There's a jew in a bar and he's having a drink so a Evangelist walks in (Don't know why he's in a bar >_<) and starts asking the jew if he's read the New Testament and the jew goes "I'm sorry I don't much like sequels."
 
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
Blayne? Is that you? I thought you 'sploded.
 
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
Luckily I have several clone bodies who I can transfer my soul to.
 
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
Like Sid?
 
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
Sid? I was thinking more of a mix of Hohenheim from Full Metal Alchemist and some demonic wizards from Forgetten Realms.
 
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
 
Sid.
 
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
 
oooooh ya, Model 6965.....
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
A man walked into a bar.

Ow.
 
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
 
<wince> Nice.
 


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