I read it a while back...and just got it back from my aunt (who I loaned it to). I am now reading it for the second time. I have to say, it is Jordan's best book in a long time. I really loved Egween's (sp?) actions in the white tower. I thought the way she brought people to her was a lot of fun to read.
Though, it pisses me off that that sister rebelled against her, and then taught Elaida how to travel, along with the other secrets that the little tower had found.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
It was betterthan the previous two...although that isn't saying much.
I liked his newest one even more, although I am a little burned out to be honest. I can feel him tugging at my wallet.....
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Um, this is the newest one.
But it definitely was a lot better than the last few. Jordan still has an awful tendency to verbosity and not getting to the action, but I at least felt somewhat rewarded for my patience. Instead of a dozen plot threads carrying on forever, a few of them actually had resolution. He could have resolved a lot more, though.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Maybe I will read the rest of the series if he finishes it.
Emphasis on *maybe*.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I have to say, it is Jordan's best book in a long time.
There's a low bar. Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:I have to say, it is Jordan's best book in a long time.
There's a low bar.
True....he was going downhill for a while, but I thought he picked it up a bit with his previous book (though it still wasnt' great). I thought this one was actually very good.
I was very disapointed with the way the series went, since the first few books were excellent.
Posted by Earendil18 (Member # 3180) on :
I stopped reading after the eighth 900+ page book.
Not to keen on the guy since. He really is verbose and repetitious.
Posted by Earendil18 (Member # 3180) on :
quote:Originally posted by Earendil18: I stopped reading after the eighth 900+ page book and ONE thing done in the story.
Not to keen on the guy since. He really is verbose and repetitious.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
I swear, if I have to see Jordan describe, in detail, the garments of another minor character whom I don't care about, I'm just gonna snap and take a gun to work. And if he does it using the exact same describers (low/high neckline, color, opacity, tightness), it's going to be a fully automatic gun.
That said, I'll still be reading till the end of the series (it looks like two more books). I have to know what happens to the characters... Expect to see me on the news soon.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
quote:Anyone else read . . . Jordan?
On a cold day in hell.
Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
I liked that series untill it got to the point where he was writing thousands of pages were nothing got accomplished and thousands apon thousands of side stories starteed untill you lost track of who any of them where. Knife of dreams was the best one in a long while though because it actually accopmlished some small somethings...but not enough.
Posted by airmanfour (Member # 6111) on :
IT NEEDS TO END!!! I can't take much more of this series extender crap. The worst part is I keep making it worse when I buy the lastest ones.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Yeah...I got mixed up.
Doesn't matter, I have read them all - although I can't say I enjoyed them all....
Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
I have recently heard a couple things. First that it will end in either the next book or in two. But the bad news is that also somewhere in there Robert Jordan is going to drive us closer to suicide with two more prequal books. The horror...the horror...
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Well, hey, let's all agree to drive him to suicide instead by not buying any of the prequels. Fair is fair.
I'm going to get them from the library, which is my usual solution for authors who have degraded very noticeably, but whom I still read in the hope that they will return to the path of righteousness. Turtledove gets the library treatment, too.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
I read the first hundred pages and realized I didn't really remember who the characters were anymore - and I definitely didn't have the time to read the past few books to figure it all out.
Maybe this summer.
Posted by Lynx (Member # 8760) on :
I've read up to book 7 I think and then... I just never finished it. I play on a couple of Wheel of Time muds and yet I can't seem to make myself finish that book and continue on. I will one of these days. I enjoyed the first 3 books very much and after that it's been more that I've felt obligated to read the rest. *sigh*
Posted by Lissande (Member # 350) on :
I read up to book 8 - only read #8 because it was a gift - and am now determined to read the last chapter of the last book to see how it turns out, if and when the last book is ever published.
Posted by Lissande (Member # 350) on :
I should clarify that I mean to read the last chapter of the last book and skip the rest until then.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I read it, and agree that it was much better. My only frustration was that my favorite storyline was Egwene's, and Jordan spent the least time on that. He spent a lot of time on Matt, and that one really wasn't doing much for me.
-o-
Someone taught Elaida how to travel? Now why don't I remember that?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I'm trying to imagine something that would get me to start reading Jordan again.
It's not coming.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
I really enjoyed it. And it was a good setup for the last book (though, that may be split by the publisher if it's size is too big.)
Loved Matt and Egwene. And finally, some resolution. But the last book is finally nigh (in two years, anyway.) The end is in sight.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: I read it, and agree that it was much better. My only frustration was that my favorite storyline was Egwene's, and Jordan spent the least time on that. He spent a lot of time on Matt, and that one really wasn't doing much for me.
Ditto. Mat's story really dragged out, and Perrin's did a little bit, too. I would've liked to see more Rand and more Egwene.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Perrin's dragged out a little bit? He spent a whole book moving his army about twenty miles!
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I really liked Perrin....
About 5 books ago, that is....
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Yeah, Perrin's chapters in book 4 were some of my favorite fantasy.
Then I read up to book 9, and I don't really remember anything else of interest happening with the character.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Perrin's dragged out a little bit? He spent a whole book moving his army about twenty miles!
Relatively speaking, that is. It dragged out a little bit for Robert Jordan.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Also, here's an interesting corrollary: has anyone noticed that as the books have gotten worse, so has the cover artwork?
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
After Book 9, I decided only to buy WoT used, in paperback. Book 10 stopped me flat.
It was so... Insulting. It's really the only word for it. When you have hundreds of pages in which nothing of significance happens; when you refuse to wind up plot threads for three books in favor of giving major characters long, drawn out sections of brooding; when you can almost hear the author going, "And... Cliffhanger! That should get the plebians to buy #11, despite the lack of plot movement!"...
Crossroads of Twilight is the only book I can ever remember interrupting my reading of to read a different book, and then reread that different book, rather than continue the slog. I consider it the second worst book that I've ever finished. (I'll tell you the first, but only if you promise not to gratify the author by picking up a copy out of curiosity.)
It caused me to decide one of three things had happened. The short form: Jordan is treading water, trying to get all his plot elements to come together; Jordan has lost all control, and is hoping if he keeps writing things will somehow re-coalesce; or Jordan has ceased to care, and is pumping out a meal ticket.
All I really want to know, I guess, is can #11 possibly, possibly be so good as to banish those fairly firmly planted ideas from my mind? Because I really can't see sitting through another near-thousand page whopper, just to have the author tweak my nose and go, "Thanks, sucker!"
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sterling: It caused me to decide one of three things had happened. The short form: Jordan is treading water, trying to get all his plot elements to come together; Jordan has lost all control, and is hoping if he keeps writing things will somehow re-coalesce; or Jordan has ceased to care, and is pumping out a meal ticket.
*Possible Spoilers*
I agree whole-heartedly. All that about the forsaken coming being reincarnated makes me stop and think, "what in god's name was the point of the first 6 books!?" Everything else was clearly pointless. The only other thing I can think of is that he decided, beforehand, that this series was going to be 13 books long; 13 being such a magical number in his series. After about book 3, he realized it was going to be more work than he thought filling that many volumes, and started dragging it out. I think with book 11 he finally realized that he needed to start wrapping stuff up, albeit half-heartedly: he can't even let Moiraine rest, apparantly. By mid-book-13 I predict his writing will just be a frantic mess of attempted catch-up. Sigh...the saddest part is I'll still read them too. I have to know.
Edit-Please don't read the following:
OMG I can't for Wheel of Time Book 92: Eyes of Hideous Screaming PAIN!!!1!!!1!111 Wasn't book 68: Doom of Doomy McDoomDoom the best!? LOL!!!11
Edit-You were warned.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Let me say a few things.
First of all, I agree with you about Crossroads of Twilight. With the exception of the Matt/Tuon scenes, nothing seemed to happen. Oh, sure, behind the scenes, pieces were being moved, decision were being made, and things were being set up. But, like most everyone else, I like to actually read about stuff happening in a book. I do like the behind the scenes stuff. But not a whole book of it. And book 8, Path of Daggers, was similar. It was so very frustrating, though that book had a bit more plot movement than COT's glacial speed.
I will say that book 11 is good. Enough happens that I was satisfied. (Would I say this if I didn't know that the next book (12) is going to be the last? I'm not sure. Context sometimes makes things more acceptable). And keep in mind, I have been reading these since '93, so it's not like I haven't been frustrated after waiting 2+ years for a book (like COT) only to see nothing happen and know that I'd have to wait 2+ MORE years to see what happens next. And everyone, please save your comments that I should just give up the series. I can't. Many reasons. For the most part I do enjoy it, despite the admittedly huge flaws/let downs. It represents a period in my life, a huge one and when it is over, while glad, I will also be sad that there will be no more WOT books to read. Plus, I am obsessive compulsive when it comes to stories, even if I dislike them. Only true disgust and hatred will make me not finish, and I certainly don't feel that here.
The way I see it, the story is made up of a number of movements.
1-3: The identification and proclamation of the Dragon reborn as the last battle approaches(and all the chaos this generates). This primarily deals with Rand accepting who he is. Along the way, 4 forsaken die, key items are found, key nations are now revealed as major players.
4-5: Rand attempts to make the world recognize him and impose his will on the world, while the remaining forsaken work on their own schemes. The impression is that, while powerful, the forsaken weaken each other as much as Rand, and Rand is able to pick off another forsaken (Moiraine gets the other, even while she 'dies'. But even then there are prophecies indicating that Moiraine was going to come back. She is the Gandalf character, after all). In my mind, this inflates Rand's assessment of himself and causes him to underestimate the effectiveness of the Dark. I truly believe this point, which I'll touch on later.
6/7-Current: (Keep in mind that Jordan has stated that Lord of Chaos/Crown of Swords is actually one book) The DO has taken direct control of his minions, through the resurrection of Ishamael. He has brought back a few forsaken to serve as goads and has eliminated (or subsumed) the other's personal schemes into one grand strategy. Rand, having underestimated the Dark, has ignored numerous indication of what the dark is up to. He has carried everything on his shoulders. Yeah, he's set up a number of things to help him. And he's cleansed saidin. But in a way, all of that has served to inflate his sense of accomplishment and distract him from the real danger. He's not really delegated to anyone or has not seen those who he will really need or how to confide in them. He's too brittle, emotionally. Most of all, he has not united to world against him and has no idea how to do it. Though he doesn't know it, the dark has him in check and is about to checkmate. As RJ said, he is 'on the ropes' and HE DOESN'T EVEN REALIZE IT!
We know that the light has to win. But the tension now comes from the question of 'how'? How can he win? Some of his key people are probably Dark Friends or even forsaken. The Dark has been breeding an army for 6 books and the blight has been quiet, so when it does come, it will be a flood. The world is rife with enemies who would bring him down regardless of the threat, and chaos abounds. There is his own Black Tower that is NOT loyal to him at all and likely has a large number of Dark Friend Ashaman all ready to take their place as dread lords. The White Tower is too busy trying to mend (or break) fences to bring it's power to bear to support him (and if they do, they likely will try to take charge, despite his being the Creator's proxy). And one of his creator-given supports, Perrin, has become so fixated on his wife that he has ignored his job completely.
Yes, there are a few glimmers of hope: Matt-Tuon, an alliance with the Seanchan, the cleansing of Saidin, the bonding between Aes Sedai and Ashaman, Egwene's mending of the tower. All of that has potential. But still it doesn't look good.
When looked at that way, the series is still good. None of that excuses the interminable Elayne/Andor struggles or the endless descriptions of clothing. But they make them more bearable.
And book 9 lets you know that things are about to come to a head. Things DO happen. The end is in sight.
I want to see how it ends.
Posted by sweetbaboo (Member # 8845) on :
I started with book 1 five years ago and read as fast as I could through them all and I think that I only got somewhere around book 7 or 8. Then I forgot all about them while waiting for the next. I thought they were getting irritating then, c'mon let Rand purify saidin already.
It was nice to see the synopsis though, IanO thanks. At this point, I have other stuff to read but if I get bored, I'll pick it back up.
Posted by WntrMute (Member # 7556) on :
The series will finish with book 12. Bring a forklift to the store to pick it up.
The remaining prequels will not come out until after he starts his new series (described as Shogun in Seanchan).
I think that the middle of the story does bog down, and that some of the writing is out of the bodice-ripper style-book. but I like WoT better than the Martin series. But I couldn't get past the first Martin book, so YMMV. (In fact, my experience was like the one above, I re-read The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales when I got stuck half-way through that first Martin book, picked up the Martin book again, realized I really didn't care, and threw it out. And I never throw out books.)
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:The series will finish with book 12.
Of course, he swore up and down it would end at book 8 as well.
I will never believe that the series is over until Jordan has been dead for 5 years.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Actually, Jordan has *never* stated (until now) how long the series would run. He would give guesses when asked online or at signings('maybe 5 or 6 more books, but we'll see') but never more than tentatively. Part of the problem is, as Jordan has admitted, the story sometimes gets away from him, and so elements that he planned for one book don't occurr (compare the synopsis for Path of Daggers, written before it was done, with what actually happened, and you'll see what I mean.)
But this is the first time he has been definite about the next being the last. Now, the publisher might have some say regarding cost of printing vs length issues, so it's possible the next book be printed as two. But in either case, that's still something definite.
I think Crossroads of Twilight was a watershed for him and his publisher in many ways and showed Jordan's 'mortality'. After all, most agree the first 5 books were good if not great. After that, opinions vary, but enough felt that 6 was good as to not make a difference in his or the publisher's mind. Add to that the fact that book 7 is actually part 2 of book 6, and criticism for that book (which wasn't bad at all) sort of goes out the window as well. Though, you'll notice, he never wrote another 2-part book again. (I, for one, really enjoy 6-7, when combined.)
Path of Daggers was the first time that people were generally unhappy, though there *was* some action. That is where things really started to bog down. In fact, one can almost date it from the moment Elayne, Nynaeve and the Windfinders fled Ebou Dar, fixed the weather and Elayne began her interminable quest to ascend the Lion throne. Time seemed to jelly and slow down, from that point on. Not just with her, but with everyone. There were some saving graces, of course, but overall the taste it left was bad.
Understandably, there was some tripidation over book 9, Winter's Heart. But for me WH redeemed book 8. That book returned to it's roots. A lot happened, the intrigue was still there, questions were answered, and it felt like the plot moved significantly. At that moment, in hindsight, book 8 seemed like the lowest point and that Jordan had caught himself just in time. There would be no further screw ups.
And then book 10, Crossroads of Twilight. Book 10 showed that while 9 picked up the plot, he still had way too many things to show. For crying out loud, the first 1/4 of the book occurs the same day as the end of the previous book, albeit from different angles. The WHOLE book was setup. About the only plot element that moved AT ALL was the Matt/Tuon relationship. That was funny and realistic. But NOTHING ELSE actually seemed to happen. It was, all of it, set up for the next book.
After the slowness of 8 and the promise of 9, book 10 was a slap in the face. For the first time, long time fans at the RJ newsgroup (which dates to the very early 90's) who had been RJ apologists couldn't defend him anymore. There was nothing to say. The reviews at Amazon, at Barnes & Noble, on all the hundreds of site were pretty much unanimous. This book sucked. Nothing happened.
And RJ and his publisher realized they could piss off their loyal fans, not just casual readers. They could lose readers (and no doubt did, as many decided they had had enough.)
So RJ buckled down and tackled the difficult task of reigning in a story that had gotten away from him and moving the story to resolution. And he did it, at least well enough for me to be satisfied.
I just hope that he can keep it up for the final book. It will be. He knows that he bought himself some time with this book. But any more screwing around, and few people will read the last book when it does arrive.
Posted by Sarcasm (Member # 4653) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:The series will finish with book 12.
Of course, he swore up and down it would end at book 8 as well.
I will never believe that the series is over until Jordan has been dead for 5 years.
And then, when he has been dead for five years, Kevin J. Anderson will team up with Robert Jordan Jr. and write several more books.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Yeah, but those won't be part of the series any more than the new Dune or Amber books are part of the original series.
Posted by Sarcasm (Member # 4653) on :
Hyperliteralism strikes again!
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Man, that would so very, very bad.
KJA is a hack and it is a wonder Brian Herbert let him (and assisted in) raping his father's universe.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I'm trying to imagine how The Wheel of Time would look different if it were written by a hack.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
:chuckle:
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
How did I know you'd show up, Tom?
hmmm...
Posted by WntrMute (Member # 7556) on :
I always warn new WoT readers to not get their hopes up too high. But even the worst book from WoT is infinitely better than the 'best' book from the Dune 'prequels.' The Dune prequels are simply the Worst. SF. EVER. Star Wars is better. Star Trek is better. William Shatner's novels are better.
Spock singing the Ballad of Bilbo Baggins is better.
Posted by Swampjedi (Member # 7374) on :
quote:
Spock singing the Ballad of Bilbo Baggins is better.
That is so. freaking. funny.
Posted by Marlozhan (Member # 2422) on :
I am still trying to figure out how RJ can spend so much time on minute descriptions. I know this has been complained about, but I want to know what his motivations are. I mean, as bad as reading those long, pointless passages are, if I had to write all that fluff, I think I'd go mad.
He really gets into his descriptions, and either that means he is masochistic or he has a wonderful talent to mentally immerse himself into the surroundings of his books so that he really is enjoying himself. If the latter is true, too bad RJ doesn't realize the rest of us are not in love with the novelization of fabric colors, fashion designs, and wall tapestries.
Or are all of us complainers just the result of an impatient, ADD culture that can't appreciate the finer beauties of descriptive literature Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sterling: (I'll tell you the first, but only if you promise not to gratify the author by picking up a copy out of curiosity.)
Okay, I'll bite. What's the worst book you've ever read?
quote:Originally posted by IanO: After all, most agree the first 5 books were good if not great
Who are these "most" of whom you speak?
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Usually, when reading complaints about the later books (which you can read at Amazon or on the newsgroup), some people will comment on the the series initially was good. For the most part, the comments mention AT LEAST books 1-3 and many will include 4 and 5.
If you don't share that opinion, that's fine. No skin off my back.
RJ's descriptions? Yeah, I don't get it either. When I write, I have to FORCE myself to describe things, to create the environment. And even then, I give only enough that is necessary. It is a labor and stops the action and emotion cold. How that guy can churn it out as easy as breathing is...not amazing, since that implies it's a good thing. I can't think of the proper word.
Even King's increasing verbosity isn't about the environment. Instead, he tells you every little inconsequential thought that pops into character's head.
Posted by Silent E (Member # 8840) on :
I don't know how those who claim the first several books were great can ignore the clear fact that the first one was the worst of the lot. Seriously, it's a horrible, horrible book. The only reason anyone would continue beyond it is if they got a really good recommendation from someone else that the next books were much, much better (which I got). However, that doesn't explain how the first people got past the first book in order to make a recommendation to their friends.
The quality picks up markedly with the third book, and peaks with the fourth. The decline doesn't get really serious until about the seventh or eighth.
Posted by SenojRetep (Member # 8614) on :
quote:Originally posted by Marlozhan: if I had to write all that fluff, I think I'd go mad.
I have a theory that he doesn't so much write descriptions as aggregate them. As someone else mentioned earlier, they generally have the same basic elements (e.g. low-cut, snug-breeches, opacity, etc.) I think he just has hot keys for a bunch of stock phrases and he types out page long descriptions with a few keystrokes.
Did anyone else notice how much folding of arms beneath breasts occured in Knife of Dreams? I counted for a 50 page window and found the phrase (or slight variations) used a dozen times. I would randomly yell them out to my wife as I came across them throughout the book.
As for 1-5 being good, I would disagree. Book 1 was good. Book 2 was a stretch. Books 3-11 are an abomination. But that's just my 4 ha'penny's worth.
Posted by SenojRetep (Member # 8614) on :
Hehe, I started mine before Silent E posted his. Love that ironic Hatrack conversation bifurcation.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I think Crossroads of Twilight was a watershed for him and his publisher in many ways and showed Jordan's 'mortality'.
If only that could have happened to Lucas at some point. Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Silent E: I don't know how those who claim the first several books were great can ignore the clear fact that the first one was the worst of the lot. Seriously, it's a horrible, horrible book. The only reason anyone would continue beyond it is if they got a really good recommendation from someone else that the next books were much, much better (which I got). However, that doesn't explain how the first people got past the first book in order to make a recommendation to their friends.
How is the first book so awful? It's got your farmboys learning about a terrible enemy, magic, deadly and taciturn soldiers, enmities within the party (Nynaeve versus Moiraine, and Nynaeve doesn't show her feelings by constantly glaring and sniffing, either) and an epic journey to the White Tower. Not to mention the curse on Matt, glorious set pieces like the last stand of Manetheren (made my eyes water when I first read it) and high court intrigues. What part did you not like?
Posted by Silent E (Member # 8840) on :
What did I not like about Book 1? What's to like?
Jordan is not a good writer. He's just not. The only thing he has going for him is his imagination, particularly in connection with world-building. That's why I continue reading; I want to learn more about this fascinating world he's created. In order to do so, I have to slog through some of the crappiest writing I've ever read.
The first book has the crappy writing. But it also lacks the imagination. From start to finish, it is one of the lamest Tolkien knockoffs in the history of Fantasy literature. It's even worse than The Sword of Shannara. There are the seeds of the ideas that are expanded upon in later books, but they can only be seen in later readings, once you are already familiar with how they are developed in later books. On its own, The Eye of the World has nothing going for it at all.
Posted by SenojRetep (Member # 8614) on :
See, and I thought the only thing interesting about the books was the human story, which is pretty much what KoM outlined. That's much stronger in the Book 1 than in any book since. Thinking back though, I wonder if it just seemed stronger because the characters were new. Was there really no sniffing, glaring, or firm tugging of braids? I can't remember.
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
quote:Originally posted by ambyr: Okay, I'll bite. What's the worst book you've ever read?
You're not likely to run across it, honestly, since it was "vanity press"... "The Conception of Sphinx", by Paul Brynner.
Threw it across the room. Twice.
quote:Origininally posted by SenojRetep: See, and I thought the only thing interesting about the books was the human story, which is pretty much what KoM outlined. That's much stronger in the Book 1 than in any book since. Thinking back though, I wonder if it just seemed stronger because the characters were new. Was there really no sniffing, glaring, or firm tugging of braids? I can't remember.
A lot of Jordan's sins and foibles become less forgivable as the quality of the storytelling goes downhill. Trolls become Trollocs, Ogres become Ogier, names like Tom and Matt become "exotic" by adding or deleting a letter. Characters like Egwene and Nynaeve have such similar origins and functions that one wonders why they weren't condensed into a single character. Infinite tugging of braids, folding of arms beneath breasts, and "switching" punishments. Elayne hoping her child will be a daughter on one page and twin sons a few pages later with hardly a pause for breath. Women who, to a soul, are manipulative, catty, and unpleasant.
At the least, I wish Jordan had an editor with the guts to point one or two of things out to him and make him address them. I have a sneaky suspicion that Tor is the publisher d'jour for authors who are likely to get in a snit and say "if you don't like it, I can take my best-sellers elsewhere!"
[ January 20, 2006, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: Sterling ]
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
BTW, this is not a defense. This is simply my thoughts of the matter. I will get to how I feel about it in a minute. Part of the problem, at least in terms of time's telescoping in the later books, is that the characters themselves have gone from being ignorant country bumpkins, with no real understanding of politics, intrigue and manipulation, to people who use and notice it on an everyday basis. Thus, the first few books, while containing the intrige elements the later books had, were from the POV of people who weren't noticing clues in the raising of an eyebrow or moving hands on a lap. So, while a hindsight read shows that a lot of things that come to a head later were already indicated as in motion, the characters didn't notice and thus the narrative was swifter.
But the later books, from Rand or Egwene or Elayne's POV, will show them reacting and analyzing every sentence, every word inflection, every nuance, and every physical tick. Jordan is attempting to convery large amounts of information through intimation and hint. Thus, we have Sareitha (I think) in POD, during the use of the bowl of the winds to fix the weather, comment on linking. And there's something about her statement that strikes Elayne as odd and indicative of a deeper knowledge and is a possible hint as to her affiliation. Which is finally borne out in the KOD (book 11).
Now, how do I feel about that? Sometimes, I like all the political/alliance puzzles. But then, I loved Caesar's Women, by Colleen McCullough, a book that many complained was too filled with political maneuvering. It is interesting. But there are times, like the aforementioned bowl of the winds scene, where I wished the pace would rapidly pick up. Drop the hint another way at another time instead of taking 150 pages to do what you could do in 50.
It doesn't help that Jordan is married to his editor and that she knows the entire story arch and where things are going. Thus, she is incapable of seeing this from the perspective of a fan who DOESN'T know that this extended scene is laying the groundwork for something later. And that doesn't even take into account the difficulty of editing your spouse's work and remaining objective.
But it is what it is. If you like it, great. If not, great. To each his own. None of that speaks to a person's intelligence or sophistication, despite what people may think or even imply.
The overall story (and that's really what I love about it) is what is important to me (regardless of the fact that other have done it before and better. There is still enough freshness and novelty that I enjoy it). So his mis-steps, his verbosity, his arrogance, the spaghetti-like sub-plots that have almost overwhelmed the series, and the fact that other writers (like GRR Martin, for example) may do it better, is really immaterial to me. The story, TO ME, transcends the crappy writing. It is what drives me to read and reread the series. And no amount of snickering or insults to Jordan will change that. Yeah, he's a pompous ass. But I like the story, and that's all that matters to me.
It's not that he's a pompous ass. It's that he can't write a decent sentence to save his life, and his plots are only as "deep" as they're convoluted.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
Oh, he's a pompous ass. The whole Asmodean mystery ('The clues are there and at least one person on the net figured it out, so I'm not gonna tell right now.') is a perfect example.
But I'm gonna have disagree with you, Tom. The poorly written part? Yes, in parts, as I stated. Sometimes, his sentence constructions are downright odd. Almost as if he were channeling Yoda or something.
But I don't know that I'd characterize offhand statements that occur way back in book 1 and turn out to have real significance in book 3 or 11 (Ishamael's partial sealing and The Tower of Ghenji) as psuedo-deep groundwork.
Oh well.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I don't consider "elaborate" and "deep" to be synonymous. Books aren't just mazes, where you read for clues to reach the end.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
That's certainly true, Tom. So I guess I'm stumped as to how you mean "deep".
Philosphically? I agree with you. Illuminating an element of the human universe much more clearly? Again, I agree with you.
Though I get the impression that's not what you meant.
Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
Alright IanO give up the Asmodean mystery. I dont feel like searching the net for whoever "figured it out" anyway. Not that it matters anyway, he is one of the few Forsaken that seemed to have actually stayed dead.
As to the first book it is still my favorite of the lot. It has adventure, magic, and good clean monster killing fun. I liked the series right up untill the last like four books were absolutely nothing gets accomplished and instead Robert Jordan runs in circles with side characters/plots that have nothing to do with the overall story and everything that gets accomplished is undone. Like half of the Forsaken that you are like "ya go Rand got THAT one" only there not dead because they can be reincarnated. This reincarnation makes so much of the plots of the early books pointless to the point of lunacy. GRRRRRRR!!!!
Posted by Silent E (Member # 8840) on :
I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the idea that there are actually people who like the first book, let alone that think it is the best of the series.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
I just think the deliberate obfuscation of the Asmodean mystery to be an example of RJ's pomposity. This detailed analysis pretty much dead ends. "The clues are all there" my eye.
But I've personally never given more than passing thought to who might have done it. Until he tells us, I can wait. That puzzle's not worth the effort.
Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
Oh ive read that before. It just goes round and a round and tells you that someone had way too much time on there hands. Thanks for responding though.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I thought the first book was fantastic. It blew me away. Best of the lot? I dunno . . . if I have to pick one . . . maybe.
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
The first book started enough momentum in my reading to get me to read the next nine (some of which had virtues of their own to keep me going, I'll admit.)
The last few have had me in the somewhat sheepish wish that we'd go back to "whack a Forsaken at the end of every book." It was predictable, but at least I could believe it was progress toward an end.
Posted by Silent E (Member # 8840) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: I thought the first book was fantastic. It blew me away. Best of the lot? I dunno . . . if I have to pick one . . . maybe.
If Icarus (whose opinion I truly respect) thinks so highly of the first book, I can only assume that I missed something important. I'll have to give it another chance. (But, Ic, don't you think it was a pretty blatant Tolkien ripoff, plot-wise?)
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
I would not like to speak for Iccy, but to be fair, Tolkien himself was pretty much ripping off any number of old legends. There are only so many plots out there. Check out the amount of fairy tales where the ogre/magician/evil lord can only be killed by finding his heart, which is hidden in some obscure location guarded by many dragons.
Or as OSC put it, neither Tolkien or Jordan are thieves; they are working within a tradition. Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
That said, there were especially events in The Eye of the World that seemed to mirror the The Fellowship of the Ring quite closely. One that especially stands out is the stay at the inn in Baerlon when a Myrdraal suddenly shows up and sends them harrying off into the night. Jordan said he wrote the first half of book 1 with a Tolkeinesqe flavor, to give readers a comfortable starting place.
Posted by Silent E (Member # 8840) on :
I don't think Tolkien was "ripping off" old legends or myths. He was certainly working within a tradition, and using certain broad archetypes, etc.
However, The Eye of the World seemed to match the plot of Fellowship of the Ring almost point for point.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Likewise, I thought the similarities between WoT and LoTR were simply fairly standard fantasy tropes. On the other hand, I was impressed with how detailed his world was (specifically, that such intricacy could be presented without boring me, as opposed to Tolkein, whose details were often a struggle for me to read*), the significance of the female characters, and Jordan's ability to juggle a huge cast of characters without me losing track of who was whom (somthing that he struggled with more in later novels, but not in that first book).
* Also, I find that there is a greater realism to Jordan's world than to Tolkein's. Tolkein gives a lot of description, but he is not describing societies I could believe would actually work. Jordan seemed to have every little thing thought out; the politics, the ramifications of any major occurrence, etc. Honestly, after that first book, it was Tolkein who suffered by comparison--something that became less and less true as Jordan pushed out book after book, especially those books where nothing was resolved.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
quote:Also, I find that there is a greater realism to Jordan's world than to Tolkein's.
I originally thought the same thing. Especially in the interpersonal relationships. I really thought he had a deft eye in pointing out each gender's (or at least an archetype thereof) foibles. The problem is that, while he's had his characters grow monumentally in terms of power and cleverness, they're positively retarded in other ways, namely the aspect of interpersonal relationships. Rand is basically an asshole, Perrin has become one-dimensional, King of Men has already mentioned Nynaeve's constant twitching, and beyond that, most of the female characters have become, in terms of their personality, identical. Most of the men too, for that matter. The more I read the more I start to feel that Jordan, when creating a character decides on two basic things, How strong, in terms of inner will, will this character be, and how strong, in terms of physical or political influence, will this character be. Now all that's left is to drop hints about this character's "personality" through repetitively describing, if it's a woman, her dress, and if it's a man, his facial hair.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I don't disagree, Juxtapose. But I was commenting on why I thought the first book, in particular was good--possibly the best of the bunch.
I would say that through book ten or so there was a more or less steady decline in quality. Book eleven has somewhat redeemed itself for me, though not to the point that the series's accomplishments begin to rival those of LoTR.
On a tangential note, I liked the prequel about Lan and Moraine.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
Ahh, i getcha. I guess we're more or less in agreement then. I haven't been able to work of the courage to go and get the prequel yet.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
I'd say don't bother. If you've read the "short" story in the Legends collection, you've read enough. The rest of the book felt eerily like Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve's experiences in the Tower and hunting the Black Ajah.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
As much as I enjoyed The New Spring, the novel, I have to agree with Jon Boy. If you've read the short story in the anthology, you got the main points. The value of the prequel, however, is three-fold.
1) Clues to the Kairen/Anaiya murder are provided (which is later solved in KOD). Specifically, that they were really good friends with Cabriana Mecandes, who Halima (aka Arangar/Bathamel) had said she was secretary to. While Halima got information that was tortured out of Cabriana via Semirhage, these two could have pointed up some inconsistancies.
2) The seeds for the Elaida/Moiraine-Siuan hatred are sown. Though not appreciated by them, Elaida had tried to help them a great deal and risked much standing in doing so.
3) The "Vileness" during the Aiel war is explained, events that not just affected, ultimately, the election of Siuan as Amyrlin, but sitters who are back after exile (Tsutama Rath and Toveine Gazal, for example), Tarna Feir, Pevara, Thom's relationship with Morgase after his nephew's gentling and Lan's future kingship. Not to mention, some set up for a Moiraine/Cadsuane reunion.
And the New Spring comic, done by Dabel Brothers, who are also doing Red Prophet, is beautifully done. I am going to get Red Prophet because they do incredible work.
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