use 24-hour time, like sensible folk? It would prevent, to pick an example compeltely at random, me showing up at the airport at 10:31 for a plane which doesn't actually land until 22:31. Grrr! Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
Cause the minutes going up to 59 is confusing enough. 12 is high enough for hours.
Beats the places where for 10:35 you say 11 minus 25.
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
Hmmm... the Metric system comes to mind as well as date formats. The obvious reason is because we're right and the rest of the world is wrong. Duh.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
Ah, showing up 12 hours early does sound like a pain.
So do most other countries really use 24 hour time? It seems like most countries would have the same 12 hour clocks and watches that we do. Is this incorrect?
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amanecer: Ah, showing up 12 hours early does sound like a pain.
So do most other countries really use 24 hour time? It seems like most countries would have the same 12 hour clocks and watches that we do. Is this incorrect?
Amazingly you are correct. Though the digital ones go up to 23:59.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
A) We do use 24 hour time. Haven't you heard of AM and PM?
B) The military, for the reasons you provided, generally does use a real 24-hour time
C) Tradition
D) I've done the exact same thing at the airport. It sucked.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote: Amazingly you are correct. Though the digital ones go up to 23:59.
I'm still confused. If other countries still have the AM/PM division, how is our system of time measurement any different?
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
This morning I woke up early to attend the 8 a.m. run-thru of a student-run play I'm helping with, only to find that there wasn't a soul there. Turns out, it wasn't until 8 p.m. I was really upset.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Usually (in Norwegian, anyway) times are spoken as 'five in the morning / evening' unless it is obvious which is meant, but written as 5:00 or 17:00.
Posted by Friday (Member # 8998) on :
I think the hardest part about adjusting to 24 hour time would be relearning to read analogue clocks. The current system works well because using a 12 hour system divides the minutes of the clock into groups of 5. This makes it fairly easy to instantly recognize the aproximate time when glancing at an analogue clock.
If the face of a clock were divided into 24 hours then the hour markins would group the minutes into units of 2.5. Such a system would not only be confusing because fractions are involved, but it also would be quite difficult to quickly tell what time it is because the major reference points on the face of a clock would be much more numerous and closer together.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
Why don't you just learn the difference between a.m. and p.m. and stop griping that Americans are wrong about everything? Obviously we understand our systems just fine, and if you can't, that's not our problem.
Posted by Celaeno (Member # 8562) on :
The same thing happened to me, except I missed my flight by twelve hours. My mother called me in the afternoon to ask if I had landed yet. I was buying sushi for lunch over two thousand miles away.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
I know the difference. The problem is that am or pm was not specified.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: I know the difference. The problem is that am or pm was not specified.
What was it in reference to?
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Oh. My. Eru.
I completely agree with one of King of Men's posts. I mean completely. I've always been frustrated by this "start over at 12" mentality and wondered why we don't sensibly use a 24 hour clock like the military and other countries do.
You're right, KoM, it makes no sense not to use it.
Posted by Ophelia (Member # 653) on :
quote:Originally posted by camus: Hmmm... the Metric system comes to mind as well as date formats. The obvious reason is because we're right and the rest of the world is wrong. Duh.
Funny. I figured the obvious reason is because we're wrong and the rest of the world is right.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
I reject the notion that our system is inherently less "sensible". There's nothing wrong with dividing the day into hours of the morning and hours of the afternoon. (The Romans used a similar, though not identical, system.) But yes, if there is the risk of confusion, they are supposed to specify. If they didn't, that's their error.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
And if we were studying in YOUR country and proclaimed that they should conform to OUR system because theirs confused US it would be cited as yet another example of AMERICAN arrogance....
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
*Mentally marks Kwea for the re-education camps when I come to power*
Clearly, you do not have the proper appreciation of the superiority and fundamental correctness of European civilisation. You dashed colonials should show some respect for your betters.
Posted by Soara (Member # 6729) on :
If Americans used 24-hour time, I wouldn't be able to enjoy the looks on my friends' faces when they look at my watch and see "17:55".
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by Soara: If Americans used 24-hour time, I wouldn't be able to enjoy the looks on my friends' faces when they look at my watch and see "17:55".
I am amazed at my own fellow Americans when they can't subtract 12 from 17.
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
I can't count that high, darn you!
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Take your shoes off.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Kwea: Many europeans are just like that. The vocal ones. They talk about how awful America is to no end. We're arrogant or have no history and our culture sucks (of course, they love David Hasselhoff over there so they really don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to culture.)
I put up with a great deal of it while I was in europe. Mostly from one particular person but it was unending and the rest of them either agreed or simply kept silent. The only time they silenced him was so they could watch more Knight Rider re-runs.
And, of course, in my *mumble*-teen years on the net european arrogance and Ameriphobia has been rampent. Especially from such gems as the self proclaimed King of Men.
Anyway, just don't sweat it. Let them revel in their bile and hatred. It's not like they can do anything but bark anyway.
Pix
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
My shoes?
Edit:
Pix, its all because we rebelled way back when. We scared them. And now they hate us. Because, as is well known, hate is rooted in fear.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
I'm going to disclose a prejudice of which I am aware but not proud.
Personally, I dislike the 24 hour clock because it has such militaristic overtones to me. My unconscious response to being given a time is, "Normal life, casual life, is run on a 12 hour clock. Regimented, take no prisoners life is run on a 24 hour clock." I recognize that this isn't particulary logical, but ::shrugs::
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
Pixiest,
I agree, some Europeans are completely obnoxious when it comes to the superiority complex.
We had a guest in from Parma, Italy. We took him for a tour of Los Angeles and Chicago on two separate occasions. He was much more interested in retail stores than in landmarks, and as we walked along, on both occasions, he said over and over again, "Ah yes, we have this in Italy too, only there it is better."
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Is it possible that you lot did not pick up on the self-deprecating overtone in my post? After all, I might have asked 'am or pm' rather than just assuming that the morning was meant.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I don't see how a system of time measurement which is broken down in a 24-60-60-100-10 is all that much better than one which is broken down 2-12-60-60-100-10. (Is a nanosecond a 10th of a millisecond or a hundreth?)
Yes, switching to a 24 hour military system would be a great start, but its still goofy.
I say we move over to a "metric" clock, or one broken down like such: 10-10-10-10-10-10...
The standard unit is, of course, the "day". Its the only non-arbitrary thing involved in measuring time in this scale**.
We'd then break that day down into 10 decidays. Then each deciday would break down into 10 centidays. Those centidays would then be broken down into millidays, microdays, and so on.
Here would be the conversion factor. Notice that its the oddity of the non-metric version that makes this look complicated. Converting between the different metric units is easy as pie, just like all metric units.
Notice that a nanoday is very close to a second. And one milliday is not too far from a minute. So our thinking would not be too changed.
I'd imagine that the "day" would also drop off with common usage. So our sayings would go something like...
"I'll be there in one nano!"
"Hold up, this will take me a couple of millis."
The way we write time would be very simple.
It would be pretty easy to express time too! Say you had a meeting at 6 decidays, 3 centidays, and 5 millidays. You could just say that your meeting was at .635! The decimal could be used to denote the "day" of the month. Then if your meeting was on the sixth of the month you are in at that time, you could write that it is at 6.635. Writing date-times could be as easy as <year>.<month>.<day>.<deciday><centiday><milliday><microday><and so on>...
For instance, right now its 2006.1.16.691.
The calendar could use some work as well. The year isn't arbitrary, and the day isn't arbitrary, and they don't match up in a very nice way. So no system is perfect. We could certainly do much better than we are now, though. The months are loosely based on moon cycles (I think) but they aren't even close anymore. That whole concept has to go.
There are 365 days in a year. Lets try and shoot for 10 months. So thats 36.5 days in a month. Not very nice, but we can work with that. We'd even get to keep December (10th month), November (9th month) and October (8th month). The other names would probably all have to go.
Anyway, ten months, alternating 36 and 37 days: 36+37+36+37+36+37+36+37+36+37 = 365. The leap year would mean having three 37 day months in a row, though it doesn't matter which month gets them.
Remembering which months have which number of days could be very simple, just stick it in the naming convention. For example, months with 36 days could have an "or" ending, and months with 37 days would have the "er" ending. So December would stay, but it would be Novembor. You know, something to that effect. Then when you have a leap year, one of the months ending with "or" gets an "er" instead for that year.
But now I am just getting silly, I suppose. But anyway, what do you guys think of the metric clock idea?
**Here's the actual definition of a second that I found on the web:
quote:The second is the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the cesium 133 atom.
[ January 16, 2006, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: Xavier ]
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
With that said, sorry, but the landmarks in Europe really are better. Not because of any particular cultural superiority, but just from having so much more history to draw on.
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
That went *whoosh* over my head.
Edit: Not KoM's post, Xavier's.
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
quote:Beats the places where for 10:35 you say 11 minus 25.
We do that. Actually I always found it quite sensible because when someone tells you it's 10h50 your brain registers "10" when in fact it's closer to 11.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I like it, X.
But you and I and everyone else here will be long dead before something like that gets adopted.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote: My shoes?
So you can count that high, honey.
Posted by Amilia (Member # 8912) on :
quote:We'd even get to keep December (10th month), November (9th month) and October (8th month). The other names would probably all have to go.
Except for, of course, September (7th month).
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
KoM,
Was that you we were entertaining?
I would agree that many of the European landmarks have more history, but "better" is definitely a relative term that is poorly used when applied to art, culture and people.
The landmarks in America are much more important to me than say, the landmarks in Norway, because I not only appreciate their history, but I have an emotional attachment to them. Being an English lit fan, if we were comparing American landmarks to English landmarks, it would be tough for me to decide which I prefer.
But, if I were in Norway, I'd want to at least see the landmarks and hear some history.
What made me laugh was that this guy was only interested in comparing our cultures on a retail basis (shoes, porcelain, cookies, toys) and in commenting on the superiority of his country.
This would have been excusable and ignored if the gentleman was not 1)the emissary from one of our largest vendors 2) over 40 years old 3)a broken record.
I had expected grace from a European. I was sadly disappointed.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
If there was a misunderstanding as to whether or not it was AM or PM, why didn't you just ask? Sorry, but that kinda thing is really you're own fault for not double checking, not their fault for using a system you seem to not understand or apparently, know how to operate.
The only thing I tend to think is a good idea to phase in is celsius versus fahrenheit. I know how to use F better than C, but C just makes more sense, and I'd love to see the next generation using it instead of F. As for the rest, whatever, we make it work, and our annoying obsession with shying away from the Metric system has been useful in the past.
When the Russians captured one of our B-29s during WW2 and tried to reverse engineer it to create the Tupelov TU-4, as they didn't have an aerial bomber capable of carrying a nuke, it took them several years, rather than several months, because their machinery was made to use the metric system only, and they have to reengineer all of it to make it work for our units of measurement. That never really made sense to me, but according to the history books it's true.
So see, our stubbornness saves lives.
Edit to add: I see KoM you covered they "I could have asked" part earlier. Still don't know why you didn't just go ahead and do it. Anyway, this edit was to add a question: Why exactly are European Landmarks "better" than American? And which landmarks?
I find European arrogance rather amusing, given the common European stereotype of Americans being the arrogant ones.
[ January 16, 2006, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: Lyrhawn ]
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
kmbboots- I'm already without shoes upon my feet.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
So with fingers and toes...
Oh, nevermind.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Why don't Americans use 24-hour time, like sensible folk?
Because we hate you and every single one of us is laughing at your expense. Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote: September (7th month).
Of course .
Now what would the other months be with this scheme?
I'd vote for renaming the 4th and 5th months. Very clunky looking. Perhaps Quatber and Quinber? Make that change, and add in my previously mentioned convention and it would be...
Not too shabby...
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I also propose they all end with '-er'.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
So if our Unusbor really sucked we would always get a du-ober.
Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :
quote:Originally posted by Xavier: Edit: Of course a google search reveals I am not the first person to think of this . It makes so much sense, its amazing we aren't using it. Here's a picture of a metric clock: http://www.apple.com/downloads/dashboard/status/metricclock.html
Psst, The Simpsons had this pretty well covered about 7 seasons ago or so. It wasn't treated kindly, as appealing as an idea as it might seem.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Wow, as a Simpsons fan, this surprises me. How on earth did I miss it? Anyone have a link to the episode guide or quotes from it?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
It's the one where the learned citizens take over, squander their opportunity, and get beat up by Steven Hawking.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I actually just found that, Dag.
quote: The learned council conducts a weekly status meeting. Skinner % proudly reports that the trains are now running on time -- metric % time.
Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :
quote: From the 05/09/1999 (Tenth Season) "They Saved Lisa's Brain" episode of "The Simpsons":
LISA: "Principal Skinner, how's your transportation project coming?"
SKINNER: "Oh excellent, not only are the trains now running on time, they're running on metric time. Remember this time people, 80 past 2 on April 47th, it's the dawn of a new enlightenment."
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Edit to add: I see KoM you covered they "I could have asked" part earlier. Still don't know why you didn't just go ahead and do it. Anyway, this edit was to add a question: Why exactly are European Landmarks "better" than American? And which landmarks?
Any landmarks. And they are better because they are not American. It's all very simple once you realise that Delphi is actually the center of the world. Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Delphi hasn't been the center of anything in more than 2,000 years silly Euroman.
Didn't the people living at the center of the world send you a change of address notification? They live in the US now. Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote: 80 past 2 on April 47th
47th? How do he get a calender with 47 days in a month with metric time?
and "80 past 2" doesn't sound very metric. The zero after the eight is not needed, and that's in base hundred, not base ten. I would have made him say "2 point 8" or something of that nature.
Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Delphi hasn't been the center of anything in more than 2,000 years silly Euroman.
Didn't the people living at the center of the world send you a change of address notification? They live in the US now.
I'm nearly as American as the next guy, but I can't think of a single place in this country I'd want considered the "center of the world" in any category that would be widely considered cultural.
EDIT: And Xavier, like I said... I don't recall them drumming up the better points of Metric time. In true Simpsons fashion, the farther out of reality it is, the better! Remember, this is the show that added Febtober as the thirteenth month.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Silly, everyone knows that Kalamazoo, MI is the center of the world.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
The center of the world is highly mobile. Currently it is residing in Charlottesville, VA, but will be moving to Northern Virginia once it graduates.
Posted by DavidR (Member # 7473) on :
Well, since everyone know that America is the center of the World and since a hog farm outside Lebannon Kansas is the center of the "lower 48" by one method of determination I guess that the center of the World is a hog farm outside Lebanon Kansas. Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
You know, I got that KoM was kidding. Some people, I'm not so sure about . . .
-o-
quote:Originally posted by Friday: I think the hardest part about adjusting to 24 hour time would be relearning to read analogue clocks. The current system works well because using a 12 hour system divides the minutes of the clock into groups of 5. This makes it fairly easy to instantly recognize the aproximate time when glancing at an analogue clock.
If the face of a clock were divided into 24 hours then the hour markins would group the minutes into units of 2.5. Such a system would not only be confusing because fractions are involved, but it also would be quite difficult to quickly tell what time it is because the major reference points on the face of a clock would be much more numerous and closer together.
Actually, location-wise, everything would still be exactly where you are used to thinking about it. Fifteen minutes would still be a quarter of the way around the clock, or 90 degrees. Five minutes would still be a twelfth of the way, or 30 degrees. You would simply have a few extraneous marks to ignore when it came to minutes. It might be a pain to teach you kids, but someone who grew up on a twelve-hour analog clock would have no difficulty at all converting to a 24-hour analog clock.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
quote:And if we were studying in YOUR country and proclaimed that they should conform to OUR system because theirs confused US it would be cited as yet another example of AMERICAN arrogance....
That's what's so great about Europeans. They are guilty of exactly the same cultural arrogance as Americans, and the same desire to impose their own system on the rest of the world, but they love to act smug and say theirs is justified, based on the false premise that their culture is older.
False premise? Oh, yes. Silly Europeans, you don't think American culture simply sprang fully-formed from the head of Zeus in 1776, do you? American culture is a direct descendant of English culture and therefore has a heritage exactly as long as that of England. Plus we've derived cultural elements from other places as well, not the least of which were the native peoples of this continent, who may not have been much for architecture but had very rich cultural traditions of their own. Yes, American culture is very old and very rich, and it is only their own arrogant insularity that keeps Europeans from recognizing that fact.
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
quote: So with fingers and toes...
Oh, nevermind.
I'm supposed to count to twenty-four. Are you suggesting I have more fingers and toes than I'm supposed to?
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by SteveRogers: I'm supposed to count to twenty-four. Are you suggesting I have more fingers and toes than I'm supposed to?
I don't know. When was the last time you counted them all?
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
Five seconds ago...
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
How many were there, anyway?
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
"I am amazed at my own fellow Americans when they can't subtract 12 from 17."
"I can't count that high, darn you!"
Actually you didn't need to count to 24 Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
Gaal- I actually started typing before that post was made, so I didn't know it was there. I meant 24, as in 24 hours in a day.
Tante- I had the normal amount of fingers. But I think there is a human head sticking out of my left foot next to my smallest toe...
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Oh come now Verily.
You know very well that it doesn't count unless we have at LEAST five hundred year old buildings made of marble. Ours aren't old enough yet, so culture be damned.
Or is it a thousand years old? I don't know, the resident Europeans will have to answer that.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
There's nothing like defending your own culture from claims of arrogance by decrying others for exactly the same fault.
We're not arrogant and insular! They are!
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
quote:There's nothing like defending your own culture from claims of arrogance by decrying others for exactly the same fault.
We're not arrogant and insular! They are!
I didn't say we weren't. I simply said that Europeans love to pretend they are this humble, worldly people when to them, "world" means "rest of Europe", and they have as much desire to make the rest of the world conform to their way of thinking as we do. I don't use this as an excuse for America's faults. I think we need to work on our faults regardless of what the rest of the world is like, and I neither said nor implied otherwise. I'm just saying that European smugness is out of place, and it is hypocritical of them to decry us for being too arrogant and insular while at the same time being just as arrogant and insular as we are.
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. It makes so much sense, its amazing we aren't using it. Here's a picture of a metric clock: http://www.apple.com/downloads/dashboard/status/metricclock.html