It's Girl Scout Cookie time, so Jennifer and I were out in our "neighborhood" selling cookies. At one house, the woman who answered the door was a visitor from OKC, and she was a very nice lady. Her sister, whom she was visiting, was not in, but she signed her up for a couple of boxes and was making small talk about being a Brownie a long time ago and stuff.
Then she asked Jennifer where we live. Jen pointed, "Over there."
"And you go to school here in Liberty?"
"No, we're homeschooled."
"Oh, well you don't want to tell me that. I'm a public school teacher here in Oklahoma. Well, goodbye." And rushed inside and practically slammed the door.
Jennifer just looked at me, confused. "Why did she say that?"
I shrugged. "I don't know, Jennifer."
Thing is, I don't know.
Did she take us homeschoolers as a personal affront? Is she just ignorant of the laws here? Any teachers (or anyone else) want to tak a stab at what she really meant?
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Most people who are homeschooled do it because of dissatifaction/anger with the public schools, and teachers get the brunt of it most times.
Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
I have nothing but respect for teachers. They're doing a necessary and horrendously difficult job. Was she ...afraid, for lack of a better word, that I may pick a fight with her or something?
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
She might have been afraid that you would launch into a diatribe about how terrible schools are and didn't want to hear it.
I do know some public school teachers who get real upset talking about homeschooling, one of my close friends is an elementary teacher and bring it up with her and you better watch it. She will imediately tell you parents who aren't trained have no business trying to teach their kids and tell you all kinds of stories about how she's gotten kids that were brought to the school after several years of homeschooling and were terribly behind the other kids. *shrug* She seems to take it personally, that anyone who advocates homeschooling is personally attacking teachers when they do it.
who knows what was the particular case with that woman.
Posted by Swampjedi (Member # 7374) on :
Yeah, yeah. Only those 'trained' may do it. Dear Lord, it's amazing we ever made it out of the Dark Ages without specially trained teachers with 4 year degrees.
Of course, people like Belle describes tend to forget about the kids who come out several years ahead of the game.
I guess we all do that. :-)
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
She well could have had a difficult time with other parents telling her what was wrong the public school system.
Even so, her reaction seems ... odd.
Who knows.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
She was probably just having a Stupid Moment.
I have Stupid Moments when I defend public schooling in a knee-jerk fashion even when, deep down, I agree with a given criticism, simply because I feel on the receiving end of any perceived attack--even when, as in this case, no attack was intended. So I'll apologize on her behalf.
(The thing is, many individuals say that they have lots of respect or whatever for teachers, but it's pretty easy to see that as a society, we don't mean it. And for each person who claims to have a lot of respect for teachers, you have someone saying things like "Those who can, do; those who can't, teach," or talking about how teachers are the ones who can't hack any other field in college. As a math teacher, I'm particularly sensitive to the sentiment I regularly hear that high school math teachers don't know very much math--beyond, say, Algebra. I've heard--or rather, read--it here, in fact, and my reaction does tend to be a bit knee-jerk.)
Posted by Swampjedi (Member # 7374) on :
People have odd reactions to everything, it seems. One night I was with some friends, and I mentioned casually that I had to head to church in the morning so I needed to leave. One guy immediately went on the offensive, being very rude about how he thought church was a scam and religion only a mind control drug. You'd have thought I smote him with the Bible with extreme prejudice.
It's almost like an agressive immune response.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swampjedi: Of course, people like Belle describes tend to forget about the kids who come out several years ahead of the game.
I guess we all do that. :-)
Or possibly, in her experience, the numbers don't balance. Posted by Swampjedi (Member # 7374) on :
Perhaps. Then again, once we decide how we're going to percieve a matter, we tend to ignore evidence to the contrary.
It's human. Even I do it, and I'm Jedi. Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
So, Icky, what did you think of the 20/20 show on Friday night about schools in the US?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I missed it. I don't generally watch TV. I'll look and see if I can find info on the web.
(Although if it's an article on how schools really do suck, and you're asking me to basically be the defender of my profession, well, I'm not sure that I have the spiritual energy to fight that fight. I've been in enough fights on Hatrack lately, and I'm currently tired. )
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:She might have been afraid that you would launch into a diatribe about how terrible schools are and didn't want to hear it.
I was thinking she might have been afraid that she would launch into a diatribe about homeschooling.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
It's probably an issue she's felt strongly about and has discussed ad nauseum with everyone else in the universe, to the point where she is only capable of confrontational reactions. Swampjedi's experience with someone reacting violently to the religion was probably the same thing.
It'd be like if someone new came onto Hatrack and said "Hey guys, what's the deal with gay people? What's OSC's stance on them?" The thread would look something like:
Person A: (Link to OSC articles) Person B: What do you mean "what's the deal"?! You're implying that gay people are sub-human! omgwtfbbq! Person C: (Links to three recent threads on same topic) Person D: B, he wasn't implying anything, he was just asking a question. BTW, welcome to Hatrack! Preson B: Why doesn't anyone phrase anything properly? The proper way to phrase a question like that is "what do you think of homosexuality" or something equally non offensive and obscenely politically corect! Person E: I got into trouble for being politically incorrect last week - it almost cost me my job. Person C: E, that sucks, what happened? Person A: Homos are the least of our problems, look at the Mexicans! Person B: OMGWTFBBQ! Person E: OMGWTFBBQ! Person D: ROTFLMAO! Person C: You're not funny, A. Original Poster: Oh my god, I'm never coming back here, ever again.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Okay, I just watched the three and a half minute intro. Before I watch the rest, let me point out something that is maybe addressed in the rest of the piece. Many of the similar tests I have heard of, like the TIMMS test, have a bias that most people aren't aware of in that they are effectively selecting for the results they show, in a couple of ways. First of all, most third world countries do not have universal education. Most European first world countries that do have universal schooling segregate their kids fairly early on into a university track and a vocational track. (I believe Japan does this as well, though I am not certain.) We may still have the de facto remnants of our old tracking system, in the form of honors classes and remedial classes, but, as a rule, we do not have this strict tracking here. And so many of these tests that show how inferior American schools are pit fairly typical US students against the most advantaged students from other countries.
That may or may not be the case here, but it's something to keep in mind. (Is it a bad thing that European schools track like they do, or is it a virtue? Well, that's a whole other issue, but regardless, it's a difference which will certainly show up on our testing.)
John Stossel really grates on me in general because he tends to assert conclusions rather than merely make observations. The extrapolation he makes in the piece I saw, where he blames all of our problems on our lack of a voucher system, is rather weak. Our problems, such as they are, no doubt have myriad roots, and to throw it all on school choice strikes me, on the surface, as rather facile. (And I say this even though I favor vouchers.)
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Okay, I read his article and I watched all the videos they had on education. I agree with his stance with regard to school choice with a couple of caveats. First, there is a middle ground between no school choice and open vouchers: you can give parents their choice of public schools without forcing them to lie about where they live. I think we should do this, provided that parents provide the transportation should their children attend a school other than the one they are slotted into. Second, I agree with Bob's insistence that, if we're going to make public schools demonstrate their effectiveness through state-mandated testing such as the FCAT, then private schools that receive vouchers ought to have to do the same. I just can't think of an objection to that, but for some reason, they don't have to. Heck, I say let the state pay for it, and keep the onus off of the private schools and their customers.
Now, beyond that, though, I saw nothing to indicate that this test was free of the problems that I noted in the TIMMS test (in fact, so little information was given about the test, that it might well be the TIMMS test. Stossel's assertion that it all comes down to school choice seems to be an opinion, based perhaps on logic, but not obviously on the facts (alone). His article says, basically, we have this problem, and here is the solution. I think there are a lot of reasons why American schools may be perceived to underperform, quite aside from the absence of a voucher system. The fact that we have to be so many things to our kids, the fact that we are a vehicle for social services, and for basic parenting, and not merely for education, looms large. I wonder if this is true of other countries--I rather suspect not. (I know it's not true in general of Latin American countries.) Ultimately, Stossel's not a journalist, he's a commentator, or an editorialist. It seems dishonest to portray this piece as journalism.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Stellar analysis, Icarus. Thanks for the reasoned and level-headed response. (It helps me understand the situation much better.)
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:First, there is a middle ground between no school choice and open vouchers: you can give parents their choice of public schools without forcing them to lie about where they live. I think we should do this, provided that parents provide the transportation should their children attend a school other than the one they are slotted into.
That's what they do in Richardson. I always thought that was cool.
Of course, I'm living in the LAUSD right now. Homeschooling for us unless we move to the Glendale district before Ems is old enough for school...
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:First, there is a middle ground between no school choice and open vouchers: you can give parents their choice of public schools without forcing them to lie about where they live. I think we should do this, provided that parents provide the transportation should their children attend a school other than the one they are slotted into.
Excellent idea and one that should probably be implemented before vouchers are considered within a jurisdiction. This will give the school district time to adjust to a non-geographic-based distribution of general student population and give parents a chance to get adjusted to the idea of selecting a school. There will be problems with priority, especially in systems with only 1 or a few really good schools, but this should be doable.
quote:Second, I agree with Bob's insistence that, if we're going to make public schools demonstrate their effectiveness through state-mandated testing such as the FCAT, then private schools that receive vouchers ought to have to do the same. I just can't think of an objection to that, but for some reason, they don't have to. Heck, I say let the state pay for it, and keep the onus off of the private schools and their customers.
I think there's merit in allowing schools to opt for a different yard stick. It's one of the things many parents will want to consider in selecting schools. I'm not sure how to accomplish this while still allowing meaningful comparison by parents - which, in a school-choice setting, will be the most important function of the tests.
Re the TIMMS test, I brought this up once with someone who had spent time in European schools, and he said I was just making excuses. Is there a good study documenting this for such conversations in the future. Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
ersomniac, I thought your post was hilarious. Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
So..uhh..maybe I should practice a little speech in case I'm confronted with a similar (or worse) situation in the future...
"I'd really rather not discuss my family's educational decisions at this time. Thank you."
I mean, seriously.
I appreciate the responses, especially Icarus' (ya know, even though I often have Stupid Moments myself, that didn't even occur to me).
I feel that public school is what's best for a lot of kids. I just don't think that's what's best for every single kid, and not mine, at least right now.
At least for now, I'm going to assume that she went back inside to avoid a scene. I don't think it really matters who she thought was going to start it. In fact, I don't think the whole situation matters much...except for the fact that something similar will probably happen again, so it behooves me to think about how I will handle it in the future.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I'd just stare at her blankly and say, "School? Kids go to school?" But then, I'm Certified Evil. Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
I am trying to decide whether or not i want to open the can of worms that is my chip on the shoulder against academia.
Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
:giggles at kq:
Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
I have very little respect for most teachers. I'm not afraid to admit that.... This lady who slammed the door when she found out you were homeschooling: Her closed-mindedness and her defensiveness are exactly why.
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Thanks for you opinion Icky.
I'm really starting to believe that maybe the Europeans don't have such a bad idea, with the college, vo-tech tracks. I'm starting to believe that there are just some kids who have no idea what they want to do with their lives and some who know exactly what they want to do. It may be that the kid who has no idea ends up being a doctor or something and the kid who knows exactly what he wants to do is working at a local radio station. Maybe there are kids who, knowing what they want to do, should be in a more specialized vo-tech type of school. And some kids who have no idea what they want to do, like my son, should be kept in the college track, just in case (which is what he's doing, taking all the classes he'd need to get into college, just in case that ends up being what he wants to do.)
I just think that there are better ways to teach kids. Not all of them fit the school mold. I wish that there were different types of schools for different types of brains. I know my kid could have used different teaching methods.
Posted by Chris Kidd (Member # 2646) on :
Isn't there some states that outlaw homeschooling?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Homeschooling is not illegal in any state, although different states have different laws about what is required of homeschoolers and what is required to pull your child out of public school.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I have a semi related question:
In my school district all of the schools are fairly good. There are elementary schools that don't test as well, but that's generally more a result of things beyond the school's control like transience, lower incomes, lack of parental interest or involvement. I know that all of the middle and high schools are equal in terms of quality.
But districting is horrible. For example one neighborhood is a two minute drive from one of the middle schools, but they're districted into a middle school that is twenty minutes away on a good day. Students who live way south of town are being bussed to the high school north of town, instead of the south high school. Sure, there are reasons for this. Since the high schools were built there's been huge expansion south of town, and very little north of town. But that's not really a comfort to the kids who spend half an hour getting to school when there's another school five minutes away.
Is this a nationwide problem? Are all school districts this screwed up? Or is it just us?
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Boon, you should break down in tears next time. Tears sell cookies.
Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
Homeschooling is legal in all 50 states, with varying degrees of interference.
In Oklahoma (where I live) if your child has never been to public school, all you need do is teach the child. If they go to school, you have to write a letter to the school board that says 'I intend to homeschool my child and am withdrawing her as of xx/xx/xxxx.' It's a right guaranteed to parents by our state constitution.
Some states require standardized testing, submission of curricula, public school teacher oversight, record keeping including test scores, or other stuff.
Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Beren One Hand: Boon, you should break down in tears next time. Tears sell cookies.
:giggles some more:
I told Jennifer we were going back out to sell some more cookies yesterday, and she got all excited and ran to get her hairbrush and some elastics. Apparently, she's decided she looks cuter with pigtails, and being cuter sells more cookies. Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
quote:Originally posted by Beren One Hand: Boon, you should break down in tears next time. Tears sell cookies.
Tears sell cookies? You mean, I should charge you, Beren?
Posted by MandyM (Member # 8375) on :
Well, I know I tear up whenever I see the girl scouts coming with their cookies every year!
Swampjedi, while I understand your statement about not needing a degree for much of history, I can say from experience that I did get something out of my college degree that has helped make me a better teacher. I know reading strategies and classroom management techniques that I would have eventually gotten through trial and error but it sure was easier to start out with some of that knowledge. Schools are different than they were in the dark ages. We got out of the dark ages with doctors who did not have advanced degrees but that doesn't make me want a surgeon who has not been to medical school.
TL, I have to tell you that as a teacher who is doing the best she can to teach in a very imperfect educational system, I am personally offended by your statement. I don't want to get into a debate about it or anything but we know that public education is not as effective as it could be and we struggle everyday to make it work for our students. It is people like you who beat us down that make it even harder. Not every teacher sucks. Thanks so much for the vote of confidence.
Boon, I commend you for making the best decision for your child's education. It is certainly something I advocate whether your child is homeschooled or attends public or private school. I think many parents (not all) are more than qualified to teach their children unless there is a learning disability that requires special training. I think the one-on-one attention homeschooling allows is something public schools certainly lack. I can't begin to suggest why this woman got upset about it. Some teachers do look down on homeschooling but I have seen it work well. Maybe she has no experience with a good homeschooling situation or maybe she just had a bad day.
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