I know this is a bit early, but seeing as I've already voted, I'm curious to see how other people are looking at Jan. 23.
Are you going to vote (if Canadian)? Do you care who gets elected (if not Canadian)? Are you voting nationally (say, in order to elect a leader or party) or locally (to elect the MP in your riding)? What are the most important factors in your decision to vote (or not)?
[ January 23, 2006, 10:34 PM: Message edited by: Eaquae Legit ]
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
I'm not going to vote. I'm no longer a resident of Canada and I have no intention of returning to the country. Yes, I care. Don't want Bloc Quebecois getting in, and I'd rather not the Liberals. Give me Reform any day, only I really really really wish they hadn't merged with the Conservative party. On the other hand, I no longer (as if I ever did) know the political climate in Canada, I'm out of touch with the issues, and I have no idea how the various parties & politicians have behaved recently, so all of that is subject to change depending on new information. Or, you know, anything resembling current or slightly out of date. If I were voting, I'd likely vote for a party. Voting for a specific MP hasn't ever gotten me anywhere that I can tell. On the local level, I've only rarely met or known of candidates who were worth voting for regardless of party.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I voted yesterday, after weeks of agonizing over it.
The biggest demon I had to wrestle with was whether or not to vote "strategically." Having reviewed the Conservative platform, I can honestly say that I think a majority win for them would be a disaster for the country. On the other hand, I'm not exactly the Liberals' biggest fan, and in particular I'm not huge on Paul Martin. I could justify giving the Liberals a "time out" to find a proper leader and sort themselves out if Stephen Harper was not the leader of the Conservative Party -- Bernard Lord, say, would be another matter entirely -- though I doubt you'll catch me actually voting for a Canadian party that's right-of-centre. On the third hand, I was dissatisfied with how the NDP conducted themselves in this campaign -- that brazen level of political opportunism is best left to the Tories and Grits. On the fourth hand, the Greens don't appeal strongly to me and while they aren't strictly left-wing, I'm concerned about the fractured state of the Canadian left when the right wing is newly united. In my dreams, the Bloc would drop the separatism business and merge with the NDP, forming a truly national left-wing party.
The riding I live in made it even more complicated. The race seems like it might be close, but I dislike the positions and values of both of the "leading" candidates in my riding, and since I don't strongly support any of the parties in this election (and didn't want to vote for the former Rhinoceros chandidate who is running as an independent), I wasn't sure if I should vote for the party I dislike the least or vote against the party I dislike the most. Ultimately I went with the former. There were a few minor things that contributed to the decision, most notably that the party I ultimately voted for put one item in their platform that was obviously there to appeal exclusively to me: they want to repeal the 2001 Anti-Terrorism Act. As far as I know, I'm the only person in the country who actually cares about that one.
In addition to keeping track of the campaign zealously, I went through the four national platforms, reams of past election data, and a bunch of seat projections determined using various models. I hope I made the right decision. Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote:I wasn't sure if I should vote for the party I dislike the least or vote against the party I dislike the most.
Nearly every election I voted in, this was what it always boiled down to. How sad. How pathetically sad that there were almost never any political leaders or political candidates or platforms that I could believe in or agree with.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I would be astonished if there were very many Canadians who could agree with every word of any party's platform. I think that's the nature of the beast.
Posted by solo (Member # 3148) on :
I will be voting, though I am agonizing much the same as twinky. My riding was determined by about 40 votes last time and we were one of the 2 non-conservative ridings in Edmonton (maybe all of Alberta, I can't remember), the other belonging to Deputy P.M. Anne McLellan. I don't know if I should be voting to keep the Conservatives out or voting for the party I dislike the least.
My views don't tend to fall terribly in line with any of the parties and so I always find myself having trouble. I will probably vote to oppose the conservative monopoly in Alberta.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Part of my problem is that I want to see a change in leadership in both the Tories and the Grits, so I want to see them both defeated with the expectation that the leaders would be replaced at the next leadership convention. Unfortunately, one or the other of them is going to win the election. Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote:I would be astonished if there were very many Canadians who could agree with every word of any party's platform. I think that's the nature of the beast.
Oh, I agree with you there. But it would be nice to have agreement on at least major issues or something close.
But then, like I said before, I am woefully out of date on Canadian politics now. I mean, I knew Paul Martin was the Prime Minister, and that's an accomplishment. For me. Knowing it. You know? Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
I still haven't made up my mind. My riding is in the minority in that it's almost certain to go to the NDP. Not that that should really change anything, but it seems like every Canadian votes strategically. It's part of our natinonal identity.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I didn't vote strategically! I just thought about it is all. If your riding's outcome is certain, give your $1.75 to the party you dislike the least. Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
Wait...I'm confused. I thought the the U.S. President was the one who chose Canada's leaders Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
I voted Conservative this time. I'm wary of Harper, but I seriously doubt he will win a majority, so I'm willing to give him a chance with a minority.
However, my decision was mostly made on the local level. I don't like the Liberal incumbent, and the Conservative candidate has done well by the area on a municipal level.
Anyway, I am hoping for a Conservative minority. I don't trust them for a majority, but I'd rather them than the Liberals or the NDP.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
quote:I would be astonished if there were very many Canadians who could agree with every word of any party's platform. I think that's the nature of the beast.
At least you guys get more than two. : /
--j_k
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
quote:I don't like the Liberal incumbent, and the Conservative candidate has done well by the area on a municipal level.
That's true in my riding as well, but my dislike of the Liberal incumbent is predicated on how well he represents his constituents' views. I'm confident that the Conservative candidate would represent her constituents' views equally well; the problem is that I don't share the views of most of the people in this riding. Posted by Ryan Hart (Member # 5513) on :
Oh the fun of multi-party politics. Requires a lot more strategy than the two party variety.
Posted by ReikoDemosthenes (Member # 6218) on :
I voted randomly, this time. Well, randomly, excluding the Tories, the Grits, and above all, the NDP. I had to advance vote as I get the fun of being an information officer for the election. As for who I'd usually vote for, I tend to vote for the MP. This time around we don't even have a Grits candidate as he was disowned by the party. Doesn't make much difference as the Tories are a given for this riding.
As for who actually wins the election, I'm hoping for a minority either way. I don't like "Team Martin" too much, and I don't trust Harper. Alas those are my favourite choices. So now it's just a matter of sitting back and seeing what happens.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Yeah, no matter what I definitely want a minority out of this election. I think most people do, which unfortunately could lead us down the path of a Tory majority.
Added: I'm so concerned about the Tories for a number of reasons, but what exemplifies it for me is something I found buried in the appendix of their platform. I'll copy/paste it here...
quote:The Conservative Party of Canada will be guided in its constitutional framework and its policy basis by the following principles:
...
•A belief that the best guarantors of the prosperity and well-being of the people of Canada are:
•The freedom of individual Canadians to pursue their enlightened and legitimate self-interest within a competitive economy; •The freedom of individual Canadians to enjoy the fruits of their labour to the greatest possible extent; and •The right to own property
Emphasis mine. I think someone in the Conservative Party has been reading a little too much Ayn Rand.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
It's not so much the number of parties this time around, Ryan, we're used to that. It's the fact that you don't get to directly elect your head of state. If I vote Liberal, because I like the Grit candidate in my riding, I'm also giving a vote to Paul Martin, who maybe I don't like. Because the head of state is not elected as such but is the head of the party with the most seats in Commons. It really makes things a pain, because executive and legislative powers are in the same hands.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
While I agree that it makes voting more complicated, I definitely don't like the idea of a parallel executive branch in this country.
Posted by Astaril (Member # 7440) on :
I really don't want the Conservatives to get a majority.
Around here, it looks like our MP will be either Conservative or Green (yes, there's wide talk of a Green candidate actually getting elected here, and the talk seems only to gain him more support). I intend to vote Green, both because I don't like the conservatives, and because I do like our Green MP candidate over the others. He's well-informed, intelligent, and very realistic in his ideas. So I suppose I'm voting locally this time.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Interesting. I've been wondering if the Greens will get someone into Parliament this time out.
Posted by solo (Member # 3148) on :
I would also have emphasized the word individual in your post there twinky. I believe strongly in community and supporting eachother and I don't get a sense of that from the Conservative party.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I have trouble with that whole sentence, as you do, but "enlightened self-interest" is an Objectivist catchphrase. It's pretty brazen of them to put it right there in their platform for anyone to read, but by the same token I can see why they waited so long to release their full platform to the public. Posted by Angiomorphism (Member # 8184) on :
I'm in pretty much the same situation as everyone here.
-I don't really have confidence in the liberals anymore -The conservative's focus on military spending, 2 tier health care, and dispicable (IMO) social policy scare me very much -The NDP are a bunch of commies, and they would economically run the country into a rut -I'm originally from Quebec (though I now live in Ontario) and I'm anglophone, so I'm axiomatically againts the Bloc -I like the Green party, but they have no fiscal or political experience
If I had to make the perfect party, it would be part conservative (economically, minus army spending and 2tier HC), and part liberal/NDP/Bloc/Green socially.
Maybe I'll just spoil the ballot.. or give 1.75$ to the Greens?
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Well, the Greens aren't going to get political experience unless people vote for them.
Added: Having said that, I did not vote for the Greens myself.
Posted by Derrell (Member # 6062) on :
*reads thread* *gets confuzzled* *head asplodes* Posted by Astaril (Member # 7440) on :
What's to be confused about?
Posted by Lord Solar Macharius (Member # 7775) on :
quote: If I had to make the perfect party, it would be part conservative (economically, minus army spending and 2tier HC), and part liberal/NDP/Bloc/Green socially.
You have no idea how many times I've thought the very same thing.
This will be my first time voting, and I'm thinking liberal because I'm scared of a conservative majority. (Mainly because they want to spend time trying to take back the gay marriage bill - but other stuff too.)
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Added: Response to Astaril.
To start with, y'all are switching back and forth between the actual names and nicknames of the parties interchangeably, without ever saying which ones are who. That's kinda confusing. Then there's the talk of voting strategically, and the glanced upon idea that you don't vote for your executive position seperately. That idea is pretty foreign to the typical American's view of politics. Then there are the references to "giving my $1.75." I bet most of us don't know what you're talking about.
Note that I'm not confused, but only because I've had a remarkably broad overview of Canadian politics recently. But I'm betting those are some of the things that confused Derrell. Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I bet most of you also don't care. But for the benefit of the few who do, here's a quick key:
Tories: the Conservative Party.
Grits: the Liberal Party.
$1.75: the amount, in Canadian dollars, that a party is given from the federal coffers per vote received in the last election campaign to run its next campaign.
House of Commons: our equivalent to your Congress.
Senate: unlike your Senate, our Senate is not elected. It is also completely useless.
Prime Minister: leader of the party with the most seats in the House of Commons; de facto head of state.
Head of state: Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, the Queen of Canada.
Posted by Astaril (Member # 7440) on :
Ah. I was wondering, as I have no idea really, how American politics differ from ours, other than there's only two parties. For Derrell's possible benefit, then:
Grits = Liberals Tories = Conservatives NDP = NDP Bloc = Bloc Quebecois Greens = Green Party
As for the voting strategically and not separately, I didn't actually know that you *didn't* vote the same way down there. So you vote in your MP's (or equivalent) with one election, and your President with a separate election?
As to the $1.75, it's just our version of the American "giving our two cents", but converted to Canadian funds. Coincidentally, it also means that for each vote a party receives, they get $1.75 a year for it until the next election.
Edit: Or, you know, just read twinky's post.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Asta, it's the same election, but different ballot items. On a national level we vote for our Senators, Representatives, (to the House of Representatives) and for the President. We can have a President from a different party than controls congress. (Senate + House) Or we can have different parties controlling the Senate and the House, and the President is from one or the other. The Senate and the House both have to pass bills, and then the President has to sign them, for them to become law. If the President vetos, a 2/3 vote of Congress can overturn the veto. That's the basic differences.
Thanks to both of you for the primars.
Added: The other difference is that we have elections every four years, no more, no less, and a president can only serve two four year terms. Plus a half term, if he was a Vice President and stepped in mid-way through the term due to the death of the previous President.
Posted by Astaril (Member # 7440) on :
Interesting. Thanks.
I'm so ignorant of American politics, I sometimes feel like the parallel of the Americans who come looking for snow in July in Windsor. I've been trying to remedy my total lack of political knowledge in general lately, but have started out with Canada.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
alot of the close ones are between tories and grits, so it could really go either way
[ January 21, 2006, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: Angiomorphism ]
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
There's another interesting (and very in-depth) prediciton using a mathematical model that tracks polls and then weights by riding history at Democratic Space.
Posted by dh (Member # 6929) on :
I voted in the advance polls. Conservative, of course. As David Warren (a social conservative columnist in the Ottawa Citizen whom I nonetheless heartily dislike for other reasons) so aptly put it, "I would vote for my local Conservative if he had two heads and five elbows and was married to a same-sex yeti in Tibet. And I would vote for him with a clean conscience." So there. I don't think the Tories will get a majority, but I would like it. But a minority will make me happy too. Heck, at this point even an NDP majority would make me happy if it meant the Grits were wiped off the map. Not gonna happen, though, but ah well, I did my part.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Polls are open in Newfoundland, but no results will be reported until 10 PM EST tonight.
Posted by Angiomorphism (Member # 8184) on :
I just voted in the ancaster-westdale etc. Hamilton riding.
suck it conservatives!
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I voted in Toronto Centre.
My first time voting! Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
I voted this morning. There was a brief problem as they tried to tell me I didn't exist, but I waved my voter card at them and they found my name on some list other than the master copy.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
The only thing is that when I registered, they didn't check whether I was a citizen, and when I voted I didn't have to show any identification that I was actually who it said on my card.
So I could be a non citizen, and as long as I looked like a student I could technically have voted.
O.o
Posted by dh (Member # 6929) on :
In the last election, I worked as a poll clerk, and we were carding people to make sure their voter registration cards were actually theirs. But we were then told that we weren't allowed to do that. So if you have someone else's voter registration card, you can vote under that person's name.
Not exactly safe, in my opinion, but I suppose if they had had major problems with it they would have fixed it by now.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
It's 1030pm EST and the polls are closed. CTV is projecting a Conservative Minority.
quote:Conservative Leader Stephen Harper has won a minority government on Monday, putting an end to more than 12 years of Liberal rule.
Polls across the country are now closed and results are pouring in.
The Conservatives have taken a commanding lead with 111 seats, compared to 94 for the second place Liberals.
Harper, Canada's next prime minister, has been re-elected in the Alberta riding of Calgary Southwest.
Support for the Tories exploded when the polls closed west of Atlantic Canada.
In battleground Ontario, with most of the polls reporting results, it appears the Conservatives are making progress and approaching the numbers pollsters projected for key regions of the province.
Canada's largest city, however, so far remains solidly Liberal with one exception, and that has fallen to Jack Layton's New Democrats.
In Quebec, the Conservatives seem to be making crucial gains in the province that shut them out in 2004.
Early results indicate the Tories are leading in seven ridings, while the Liberals are ahead in three. The pro-sovereignty Bloc Quebecois, meanwhile, got off to an early lead where they are elected or leading in 22 of 75 possible ridings, preliminary election results show.
Is Harper from Calgary? If so, doesn't that pretty much make him the first non-Quebec or Ontario prime minister? (If not, well, I've always been terrible with history...)
And thanks, Eaquae, for the info and link. Posted by Sean (Member # 689) on :
Nope, it looks like every province but PEI/NB/Newfoundland has had at least one. He's the first one elected in 20+ years though.
Well that was anticlimatic. Martin quitting and Harper getting a decent vote in Quebec was about the only interesting things that happened.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Huh. Go figure.
Martin quit? Can't say that that bothers me...
Posted by dh (Member # 6929) on :
Well, the Liberals certainly held on to more seats than I thought they would. The conservatives got about what I expected, but I really didn't expect them to win 10 seats in Quebec. I was hoping for 6, and only expecting 3. But they got 10. And largely at the expense of the Bloc. This is a pleasant surprise.
Ah well, a new election within the next two years seems certain, but at least the next little while should be interesting.
Posted by dh (Member # 6929) on :
Oh, and Stephen Harper is the first non-Quebec prime minister to be elected since Joe Clark in 1979. Being a proud Quebecer, I can only say this is a good thing. Prime ministers always coming from the same province is unhealthy to say the least.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Okay, it's obvious that voters are a bit tired of Liberal government. So why don't the Liberals and the NDP throw their support behind the Bloc? Or for that matter, the Liberals and the Bloc throw their support behind the NDP?
Or are Liberals so committed to "My party, first and always!" that they prefer being the Opposition in hope that the Conservatives will run Canada into the ground?
Posted by Sean (Member # 689) on :
The Bloc is the Quebec seperatist party. Relying on support from them to govern will be politically tricky; letting them form a government is a, uhh, nonstarter in the Rest Of Canada.
As for the NDP, I don't think a party with anything like that level of support has ever governed. The Liberals wouldn't want to legitimize a party to replace them, and the Bloc will probably be happy propping up the Conservatives in exchange for more power to Quebec. Plus they'd all have to be careful to avoid injury when Conservatives explode in incoherent rage all around them.
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
First Germany and now Canada. Is France next? I can only hope!
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
The conservative party elected to head the German government, the ChristianDemocraticUnion is to the left of US DemocraticParty. As are Canada's Conservatives. The conservatives are in power in France.
While a large minority / small majority of the Bloc is separatist, so is a large minority / small majority of Conservatives; don't want to spend their provinces' resources subsidizing Quebec. Heck, Alberta is a RedState wannabe.
So what's the trade off, the Bloc collapsing the Quebecois economy in exchange for the Conservatives granting greater autonomy? Or the Bloc getting more subsidies in exchange for supporting the Conservative sell-off of Canadian assets, mostly to foreigners.
[ January 24, 2006, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:So why don't the Liberals and the NDP throw their support behind the Bloc?
As Sean said, the Bloc is a quasi-seperatist party that runs candidates in Quebec only. Nowhere else can they be elected because they do not particularly care about the rest of Canada. Despite being a strong force in the House of Commons they are in fact a rather peculiar one as their aim is not to govern but to represent the aims of a particular group that exists only in one part of the country.
quote:As are Canada's Conservatives.
This is true, and I think that we will find that they will need to moderate their views more in their present position of being a minority government faced with a House of Commons that is generally more liberal than they are.
Posted by Sean (Member # 689) on :
I think separatism is more like a large majority of the Bloc / small minority of the Conservatives.
The Bloc may get some symbolic victories (seperate representation at UNESCO), the right to opt out of some federal programs and/or general devolution of power to the provinces. I'm not sure what exactly that would involve.
Posted by Astaril (Member # 7440) on :
Still. Our Green candidate got almost 7000 votes, which is 1000 more than our NDP candidate, and about 2000 more than any other Green candidate in Canada. He had 13% of the votes here. Also, there's the fact that we've been solidly conservative since the 1950's, with the exception of four liberal terms. So overall, I am still pretty proud of my county right now.
And no majority!
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
First a liberal minority and now a conservative minority, blah. I voted NDP cuz I think thye should be in power now.
As for the bloc their presence as a political party will be forever in MHO an illegal act of terrorism to destroy the union of canada and they all should be thrown in jail with life sentances for treason.
The Liberal corruption scandal is discontenting and I'm glad Paul Martin resigned, while he did I think an OK job as PM it was his job to know about the sponsership scandal and he failed at that job.
The conservative stance on same sex marriage and abortion is undemocratic, it should be a free vote by every citizen of canada. Nothing more nothing less and upon its success should be considered (in the case of SSM) an inanaliable right of every citizen and inshrine in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and clearly defined.
The Tories I do not believe that they will present a foreign policy in conjector of the wills of the Canadian People as his Steven Harper has been ridiculously Pro-Bush to the extent of supporting the invasion of iraq and believing Canadian troops should be fighting right next to American troops. A little to the front to I would gather if it meant making Bush happy .
He'll bend over to foreign companies and ruin our budget. Brian Malruney put Canada into billions of dollars of bet, is a complete nutjob, and had the LOWEST OVERAL APPROVAL RATING IN THE HISTORY OF WESTERN PARLIMENTARY NATIONS IN HISTORY! And he says he will support Steven Harper 100% and will give whatever advice is needed?
Green? Don't make me laugh, they had a seat for about 2 hous and then lost it as they totaled the remaining votes.
[ January 24, 2006, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: Blayne Bradley ]
Posted by Astaril (Member # 7440) on :
Well, the Greens had more support this year than in previous elections. In the high school/elementary school mock elections they ran across the country, the Greens won several seats. See where they're at in ten years.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
I could only barely read that, Blayne. Would you mind adding some more punctuation?
Posted by dh (Member # 6929) on :
Blayne, are you really suggesting a referendum on same-sex marriage? Don't you know that this was actually suggested by some, and the radical left-wing groups (with a little help from the media) shrieked and howled and said that it was an extremist right-wing quasi-fascist proposition? Didn't you listen to the campaign, and how the Liberals used the words "free vote" as they might use the words "nuclear holocaust"?
Democracy is scary.
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
quote:Okay, it's obvious that voters are a bit tired of Liberal government. So why don't the Liberals and the NDP throw their support behind the Bloc? Or for that matter, the Liberals and the Bloc throw their support behind the NDP?
Or are Liberals so committed to "My party, first and always!" that they prefer being the Opposition in hope that the Conservatives will run Canada into the ground?
Because it's everyone's hope that this house will be more concerned with governing and getting things done. Harper will be kept on a short leash, he has too few seats to do anything too radical. At the same time, he knows nobody wants an election for at least another year, which when added to the fact that nobody will want to face the wrath of Canadians by bringing the government down means it'll last a while (hopefully).
Harper will get his core promises through. The G.S.T will be lowered. Which is both smart (it's a stupid way to make money) and stupid (it just paves the way for someone to have to raise it later. Harper himself will have to do it, if he lasts long enough). Really, the whole GST is rediculous for several reasons. Not the least of which is that adjusting income tax rates is a far more reliable method of tax control.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
On the other hand, I no longer (as if I ever did) know the political climate in Canada, I'm out of touch with the issues, and I have no idea how the various parties & politicians have behaved recently, so all of that is subject to change depending on new information. Or, you know, anything resembling current or slightly out of date. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Taunt]](graemlins/taunt.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)