This got screwed up somehow, so I'm editing it now. Thanks for the patience
I know not everyone here is a fan of American football, but of those who are, most are probably in dismay about the horrible officiating over the weekend. One play that people are up in arms about is an interference penalty called against Assante Samuel (sp?) while covering Ashley Lelie, which gave the Broncos a first and goal on the one yard line, basically handing them a touchdown (which they later scored). I will attempt to explain why that was a good call, and use it as evidence why pass interference should not be 1)a spot foul, or 2)reviewable.
I played hockey for 13 years growing up. I've spent a good part of my life watching hockey, either live or on TV. One thing in the game of hockey is "icing" the puck. I'll try to explain icing as well as I can for the non-hockey fans/followers. When a person from Team A shoots the puck from behind the center line and it goes past the goal line (other than in the goal), play is stopped and there is a face-off in front of Team A's goalie. This is not always desirable, but sometimes it's very helpful. One stipulation of the rule is that if a player from Team B has the opportunity to stop/touch the puck, but chooses not to, the icing is waived off and play continues. Usually, Team B wants icing to be called, so they don't want the puck to be touched. Sometimes, players from both teams will be racing to the puck, because a player from Team A wants to touch the puck, to waive off the icing. If a player from Team B is skating with him in stride, he will want the puck to get across the goal line, so his best strategy is to get in front of the player from Team A and slow down. The important thing is for the player to sell it, because if it's obvious he's slowing the other player down, the ref could waive off the icing, or if it gets rough enough, call a penalty.
And that is exactly what Assante Samuel did to Ashley Lelie. He knew that if Lelie were to run full-stride to the end zone, Samuel would have no chance to prevent him from catching the ball. So he angled himself into Lelie and slowed down. Not drastically, but the ref watching them noticed him change his line and that he initiated contact (by slowing down), which is what pass interference is by definition. There was one replay that could show Samuel change course (the field-level shot from the corner of the end zone), but no replay could easily show Samuel slowing down; they all just showed Lelie putting his hands on Samuel.
This sort of tactic just can't be picked up by replay. The problem with that play is that Samuel probably could have let Lelie dive for the ball and it still *probably* would have fallen incomplete. But since he slowed Lelie down, and the ref noticed, the ref couldn't call the ball uncatchable.
Pass interference should be like grabbing the face mask. If the defender turns back and interfers without realizing it, or it's just not a major interference, it's a 15 yard penalty (spot foul inside 15 yards). If the defender mauls him and the receiver can't do anything as the ball almost lands in his facemask anyway, it's a spot foul. It'd be up to the ref's discression, and then everyone wins, because it's fun to argue about stuff.
Posted by Tstorm (Member # 1871) on :
I'd like to point out that New England lost by more than a touchdown. One bad call did not the season-ending loss make.
Not that your point isn't valid, but I'm just sayin'.
Posted by Mean Old Frisco (Member # 6666) on :
From the NFL Rule Book:
quote:2: Defensive players have as much right to the path of the ball as eligible offensive players.
quote:(e) Cutting off the path of a receiver by making contact with him without playing the ball.
quote:If there is any question whether contact is incidental, the ruling shall be no interference.
And Tstorm, the game was a lot closer than the final score would make it seem. New England was driving the ball consistently, and Denver was not. They couldn't sustain a drive at all, but got some key turnovers and great field position. Had Denver not gotten the momentum shift there, it could easily have been a NE blowout.
Also, I have to say, Denver got lucky that the refs were blind enough to call "inconclusive" on the ball that Bailey fumbled through the end zone.
I could care less (as a Packers fan)...but I think the Steelers would've(will) won(win) the AFC either way...but as a football fan, I feel obligated to point out that even with 5 turnovers, New England would've pulled out a W had the refs done their job correctly.
Posted by Tstorm (Member # 1871) on :
I should probably point out that I don't care a whit about either of those teams. Truth be told, I'd rather see both of them lose.
My team didn't even advance to the playoffs. Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Ahhhh....since both were making a play for the ball, and both had the right to do so, then was no foul.
And what about the stiff-arm thrown at the Pats by Denver during the last interception...shown clearly on the tape...which was a no-call?
How can one be a foul but the other not be?
[ January 18, 2006, 02:25 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mean Old Frisco: I could care less (as a Packers fan)...
I'm not the only one around? Score!
I had to turn off the games this weekend because I couldn't stand the officiating. Polamalu's interception, anyone?
Ah, well. Go Steelers.
Posted by Vid (Member # 7172) on :
Haha... I'm a Packers fan too, actually. (Please stay, Brett)
And the thing about the play is they both weren't going for the ball. Ashley Lelie is a lot faster than he was running with Assante Samuel right in front of him, and Jake Plummer shouldn't overthrow his deep-ball threat by 10 yards in the playoffs. Maybe in the preseason or the first few weeks of the season, but not in the playoffs.
The point I'm making is that it's not incidental. Samuel knew what he was doing, and he just couldn't sell it. I'd called out interference in my parents' living room before the ball even hit the ground.
One last edit: I agree that overall the officiating this weekend was pretty bad, but this play I thought was a good call. One good point I saw someone make was the rolls were reversed (New England winning the exact same way), people wouldn't be talking about the bad calls at all, they'd just be talking about how great Tom Brady was to overcome a less-than-perfect game (like the Denver offense did).
Posted by Vid (Member # 7172) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: And what about the stiff-arm thrown at the Pats by Denver during the last interception...shown clearly on the tape...which was a no-call?
How can one be a foul but the other not be?
Are you talking about the jump ball that Lynch came down with? (I don't remember if that's the last one or not) Brady threw into triple coverage, and unless one of the defenders tackles the receiver before the ball drops, the refs would never call interference on that Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
It wasn't interference. Samuel had position and was looking for the ball the whole time. In fact, it is arguable that Lelie held him up from getting the interception, with his grabs near the end.
As long as Samuel has position, he can crawl, and Lelie has to go around him. It isn't pass interference simply because without Samuel in the way, he could have run faster.
That's what defense is.
As far as the tip out of bounds at the end of the 100-yard runback, I can't blame the refs. Tought to tell, even with the replay. As much as a Pats fan as I am, even I couldn't conclusively tell from the replay.
-Bok
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
I look at the Broncos-Patriots game in the same way as the Texas-USC game: Denver might not have deserved the win, but the Patriots worked extra hard to deserve the loss.
As for pass interference, defensive bumping is legal before the ball leaves the passer's hands. Afterwards, any defensive touching must be in the context of trying to catch the ball. Placing oneself in the receiver's running track then slowing down to block that receiver from reaching the ball is not trying to catch the ball.
[ January 18, 2006, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
I have little sympathy for the Patriots either way considering they got to the superbowl (which they won) off a horrible call a few years ago.
Posted by Brian J. Hill (Member # 5346) on :
Add my vote to the tally of "It was definitely pass interference." Samuals was clearly shoving Lelie all the way down the sideline, and even though thats become a somewhat "accepted" defensive technique in the NFL, it's still illegal (see Redskins O-Line coach Joe Bugel's comments on offensive holding for other examples of common-practice illegal behavior.)
As for Bailey's fumble, while I loved to watch him get hammered again and again on the instant replay (that's why I love football) I agree that the replay was definitely inconclusive.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
It's definitely been an exciting playoffs, that's for sure. I can't recall the last time there were so many contentious calls.
Posted by Vid (Member # 7172) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brian J. Hill: As for Bailey's fumble, while I loved to watch him get hammered again and again on the instant replay (that's why I love football) I agree that the replay was definitely inconclusive.
Completely aside from the controversy on the play, major, MAJOR bonus points to Ben Watson for hustle. He was inside the 5 yard line (maybe in the end zone, I forget) on the opposide side of the field, and basically ran the whole diagonal of the entire field to catch up to Bailey. Yes, Champ slowed down, but Watson's hustle did all the work. Mad props.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
However, according to some commentators, Watson may have blown a block that forced Brady to bootleg to the right and throw the interception.
I don't think Samuel actually slowed down, he was running hard for the ball, which is why he had his head looking back for the ball.
Actions that constitute defensive pass interference include but are not limited to:
(a) Contact by a defender who is not playing the ball and such contact restricts the receiver’s opportunity to make the catch.
(e) Cutting off the path of a receiver by making contact with him without playing the ball.
Actions that do not constitute pass interference include but are not limited to:
(e) Contact by a defender who has gained position on a receiver in an attempt to catch the ball. Posted by Vid (Member # 7172) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bokonon: I don't think Samuel actually slowed down, he was running hard for the ball, which is why he had his head looking back for the ball.
-Bok
Look at the point I made earlier: Ashley Lelie is Jake Plummer's downfield threat. With being under pressure and everything, I can see him overthrowing Lelie by a couple yards, but that ball dropped a good 7-10 yards ahead of Lelie. And if you look at the play at full speed, he is definitely not running as he should in other games (compare it with long balls from the first Broncos-Pats game).
It's a really subtle thing, and the ref just noticed it. I'm sure there are 20 other plays where the refs don't notice anything, the receivers get ticked off, and nothing happens, for every one that the refs catch it.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
I still think the contact was by Lelie, not Samuel.
-Bok
Posted by Mean Old Frisco (Member # 6666) on :
I even originally thought it was offensive pass interference when I saw the flag.
But hey, it's over. Denver can only hope they either get the same sort of breaks in the AFC Championship, or that their offense becomes able to sustain a drive against a good defense. Otherwise, they're getting run over by the Bus.
Posted by Vid (Member # 7172) on :
New England's mistakes aside, Denver is an incredibly underrated team. I think Pittsburg is going to have a tougher time with Denver's defense than Denver will have with Pittsburg's defense.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Vid...a stiff arm isn't acceptable practice at all, the only reason it wasn't called was the refs were shielded from the contact....
and Denver pays really well.
Pittsburg will stop them. Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
If for no other reason, the NFL or CBS will slip a subcritical dose of LSD into Denver's water supply to mess up reflexes: Excluding home-team fans, a Seattle-Denver or Panthers-Broncos SuperBowl would attract about 30 viewers nationwide.
For a great Steelers' hit, watch the attached video at the end of the article.
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