Today I happened to come across a fascinating set of maps that use congregational membership data and census data (both from the year 2000) to put together a picture of the geographical distribution of various religions and denominations.
The map of "religious adherents" (the sum of all 149 religions and denominations collated by the membership data, divided by the total population by county according to the 2000 census) is interesting. While the overall trend isn't exactly surprising (increasing "religiosity" closer to the centre along the east-west axis), it's interesting to see where the "religious centres" are.
I'm also intrigued by the "church bodies" map. Each county is coloured by "leading church body" -- that is, the church or denomination with the most adherents in that county. If the leading church body's adherents make up more than 50% of the population, the county is marked with a dot. For several Protestant denominations (Baptists, LDS, and Lutherans), the influence appears to "spread" from central "cores" of majority adherence. This is not true of Catholicism, but of course Catholicism isn't based somewhere in the United States in the way that the LDS church is. Additionally, it's interesting that the regions with less than 35% religious adherence tend (at least to my eyeballing) to have the Catholic church as their leading church body.
I'd be very interested to see how well a map of overt agnostics and atheists correlated with the map of religious adherents.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
I'm not sure I find it terribly surprising, but it is noteworthy that the counties containing Los Angeles and New York City are among the most religious in their regions.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Huh. LDS, Baptist, Lutheran, etc. don't count as Christian in this data.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
I hadn't realized there was such a large conglomeration of Quakers up in the Idaho area....
FG
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
The "Christian" map has a more specific label of "Restoration Movement Christians."
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
All ye athiests, get ye to Oregon.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Edit: Never mind, saxon75 beat me to it.
Edit 2: And on the religious adherents map, "Christian" has that same meaning as well ("Restoration Movement Christians"). I think "Christian" was just a poor choice of shorthand. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
edit: never mind - already answered.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote: Huh. LDS, Baptist, Lutheran, etc. don't count as Christian in this data.
I think they just wanted to break apart the most major denominations, and the rest are "other" Christian affiliates.
Such as, I attend a non-demoninational Bible Church -- which wouldn't fit under many of these other choices...
FG
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Well, that's the thing, Scott -- Oregon might not be the atheist haven that the map suggests. It could simply be a Wiccan, Pagan, Satanist, Scientologist, or "Other" haven. That's why I'm curious to reverse-correlate the data with self-identified agnostics and atheists.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Twinky-- stop being a stick in the mud.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Fascinating. There were several groups that I though should have more representation on the "religious bodies" map, but when I clicked on the individual denomination maps they were the ones who were more spread out -- so they had fewer counties where they were the majority religion, but more adherents overall.
Pretty colors, too.
Posted by T_Smith (Member # 3734) on :
This is a pretty cool thing.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
On the "Christian" label -- the official name of one particular denomination is "The Christian Church." Since that leads to confusion in discussion, usually other labels are tacked on. Which is why you'll often see The Christian Church (Disciples of Christ). "Restoration Movement Churches" includes TCC(DoC) and some others on that same branch of the family tree.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
sax, I wonder if the higher "religiosity" of L.A. and N.Y.C. is due in part to immigration? Are new immigrants to the U.S. generally more religious as a population? That's certainly at least somewhat true here in Canada.
Posted by SenojRetep (Member # 8614) on :
quote:Originally posted by Farmgirl: I hadn't realized there was such a large conglomeration of Quakers up in the Idaho area....
Remember it's only proportionately large; that is, the concentration of Quakers may be high in Owyhee county, but since the overall population is only 10,460, that conglomeration may only be a couple hundred people (still more than I would have expected to find in rural Idaho).
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Catholics are about 25% of the country, Baptists are about 16%. Total Christian percentage is about 82%, so these two make up about half the Christians in the country.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Interesting. I didn't realize there were so many Catholics. I grew up in an almost entirely Protestant part of Canada (lots of Baptists) and wasn't exposed to significant numbers of Catholics until I went to Ontario... so I guess it isn't surprising that I'm surprised.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Was anyone else surprised by the Jewish population in southern Nevada?
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Is that Nevada? Yes, I was surprised as well, but I didn't know which state it was. I was also surprised by the Jewish population in southern Florida.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
That Religious Adherents map was interesting. It's like a big stripe down the middle of the country.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
As I understand it, southern Florida is a popular retirement spot for rich Northeasterners, especially New Yorkers.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Interestingly, while Catholics have by far the highest number of adherents, they're third in number of churches. They avarage around 2,400 people/church.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Ahhhhhh, that makes sense. Edit: sax's comment, I mean.
Posted by Silent E (Member # 8840) on :
I'm not surprised by the Jewish population in southern Nevada (specifically Clark County, and practically speaking Las Vegas). There are probably a number of reasons, but at least one of them is the large retiree population. We have a large cluster of Jewish retirees, kind of like the version of Florida depicted in Seinfeld.
Our mayor, Oscar Goodman, is Jewish, too. And I found an interesting website about the phenomenon. Site Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Thanks, Silent E! See, I never knew that was a hot retirement spot, or anything about that population. The things you learn on Hatrack!
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I learned that watching Seinfeld.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I never watched Seinfeld. But are we talking about Florida now? I was talking about Nevada.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Interestingly, while Catholics have by far the highest number of adherents, they're third in number of churches. They avarage around 2,400 people/church.
Yep. Catholics have more services per Sunday on average than the the other churches I'm familiar with. Services are about 1 to 1 1/2 hours, and there's at least one on Saturday night.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
It is interesting that MA has a wide variety of moderate to high concentrations of a wide variety of religions, and a respectable showing in the religious adherents map (more than the west coast, generally, and portions of the mid-Atlantic).
-Bok
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
*fights down urge to play with these numbers instead of her statistics homework numbers*
It's fascinating. I wish you could make them a lot bigger and overlap the different religions.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
What's up with that one county in Florida having what looks like the highest concentration of Mormons east of the Mississippi?
Why are the highest occurences of the Quakers outside of the Northeast? Why are there so many in Colorado and Northern Alaska?!?
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
"I was also surprised by the Jewish population in southern Florida."
Nah, there are loads of Jews down here. What's suprising is that it looks like Miami is in the pink and not purple (I think that's where Miami is?). Go to Miami on a Saturday and you'll see what I mean; there are loads of observant Jews walking home from Temple. Or maybe it's just that Miami has more observant Jews than the Ft. Lauderdale area, but not as many total Jews.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by twinky: sax, I wonder if the higher "religiosity" of L.A. and N.Y.C. is due in part to immigration? Are new immigrants to the U.S. generally more religious as a population? That's certainly at least somewhat true here in Canada.
Well, I believe that the majority of Hispanics are Catholic, which probably explains the large Catholic presence in the Southwest. I don't know about other immigrant groups, though.
I'd just like to add that I get a kick out of how well-defined the Jello Belt is.
Posted by Artemisia Tridentata (Member # 8746) on :
quote:Originally posted by Storm Saxon: What's up with that one county in Florida having what looks like the highest concentration of Mormons east of the Mississippi?
There used to be a large LDS Church owned cattle ranch in Florida located in a sparsely populated area. If the facility is still there, it would show as a high percentage with small actual numbers.
Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
Good maps. Looks like a good board for a big game of Religious Risk!
--Enigmatic
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: There used to be a large LDS Church owned cattle ranch in Florida located in a sparsely populated area. If the facility is still there, it would show as a high percentage with small actual numbers.
Interesting.
*scratches head*
Why does the LDS church own a cattle ranch out in the middle of nowhere for people to live on? Does the church do investments for members, too, or what?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
The LDS church owns a lot of ranches, farms, orchards, etc. that are mostly used by the "Welfare" (humanitarian aid) arm of the church. The ranch probably isn't there to provide a home for people, but to provide beef.
Posted by Artemisia Tridentata (Member # 8746) on :
The Church owns a lot of real estate. Some is used for ecclesiastical purposes some as "Welfare" assets and some just for investment. As I remember, the Florida property was once a part of the Welfare System. Later it was operated only as an investment. (By the way, before anyone asks, Church property not used totally for ecclesiastical purposes is on tax rolls.)
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Well, from the map, and from you're saying, Artemisia, a lot of people still live on and around the ranch. If the church is using it as a way for its poor to work and get money (at a competitive wage for their labor), I am totally down with that.
The investment bit I'm not so sure about for various reasons, but it's not my church, so whatever. Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
quote:Originally posted by Enigmatic: Good maps. Looks like a good board for a big game of Religious Risk!
--Enigmatic
Ohhhh, I want to play!
Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
The LDS church's cattle ranch is in Central Florida. We used to volunteer there when we lived in Orlando many moons ago. The county with the denser mormon population is in the panhandle, so that's not it.
Posted by Artemisia Tridentata (Member # 8746) on :
Yeah, It looks like its right out side of Tallahassee. I wonder if someone just hit a wrong key stroke. I'm sure thats what happened to Esmerelda County NV. There are only about 10 residents total. I'm sure one of them must be a Mormon.
Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :
Folks sho' do a lotta prayin' in that thar tornado alley. Ayuh.
And very interesting that the Northeast has so many Catholics. I thought it was WASPville there.
Oh, and thanks, twinky! I have looked for these kinds of maps before and had difficulty finding them! I'm bookmarking that site.
Posted by Brian J. Hill (Member # 5346) on :
More interesting info about the LDS cattle ranch in Florida: It is the largest beef ranch in the United States, in terms of volume, second largest in actual acreage (over 300,000 total acres.) The LDS Church bought the land for use in its Welfare system, but now it's treated as an agriculture investment, which is pretty darn profitable. Of course, it could be used for the Welfare system if the need ever arises. The primary source of income is cattle, with a few acres of citrus fruit as well; however, when I visited the ranch a few years ago, they were experimenting with freshwater shrimp in hopes to make it a viable crop as well.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:And very interesting that the Northeast has so many Catholics. I thought it was WASPville there.
Nah - the NE got the most eastern European, Italian, and Irish immigrants.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Yeah, it's been pretty Roman Catholic for 100, 150 years now, up here now (so says the son of descendants of WASPs and Roman Catholic Poles ).
-Bok
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:What's up with that one county in Florida having what looks like the highest concentration of Mormons east of the Mississippi?
The Church owns a gigantic ranch in Florida. I don't know if this is causative, or correlary to your question, but it's a neat fact.
The Mormons and the Mouse-- together, Florida is ours.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: Services are about 1 to 1 1/2 hours, . . . .
O_O
When I was a kid, I timed them, and they averaged forty minutes. As I grew up, switched churches, and even moved all over the southeast, that average held true.
I have never encountered a regular mass, non-baptism, non-Palm Sunday, that lasted anywhere near one and a half hours.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:O_O When I was a kid, I timed them, and they averaged forty minutes. As I grew up, switched churches, and even moved all over the southeast, that average held true. I have never encountered a regular mass, non-baptism, non-Palm Sunday, that lasted anywhere near one and a half hours.
My average is closer to an hour for actual services.
But I was counting from start time to start time - so turnover is included. (For the high end of the range.)
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Hunh.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: Or maybe it's just that Miami has more observant Jews than the Ft. Lauderdale area, but not as many total Jews.
*ding ding ding!*
I wonder how accurate this is for Jews -- especially considering the fact that many are either not affiliated with a synagogue at all (and this is true both among the religious and non-religious, although more the latter) or with one that is so small that I cannot imagine they are on any list of membership data.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
quote:Why are the highest occurences of the Quakers outside of the Northeast? Why are there so many in Colorado and Northern Alaska?!?
Goooood question. I had no idea the northwest part of my state was such a hotbed of Quaker activity. Keep in mind, of course, that there are only about seven thousand people in that particular borough. So it wouldn't take all that many Quakers--or all that many of anything--to start showing up as statistically significant. That's basically true anywhere outside Anchorage or the Mat-Su Valley; populations here do not get very dense. Still, I never knew there was much of a Quaker community anywhere in Alaska.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:Yep. Catholics have more services per Sunday on average than the the other churches I'm familiar with. Services are about 1 to 1 1/2 hours, and there's at least one on Saturday night.
When I was a kid, Mass was not more than 55 minutes. I really think that works in the Catholic's favor.
Then my mom started taking us to these protestant churches that averaged 2 hours, and I can't take more than 57 minutes of the Truth Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote: Yep. Catholics have more services per Sunday on average than the the other churches I'm familiar with. Services are about 1 to 1 1/2 hours, and there's at least one on Saturday night
I've never timed a service I've been to, but it certainly FEELS like an hour or two.
Posted by foundling (Member # 6348) on :
Those maps were really interesting, Twinky. I love things that are broken down into such small detail. Very cool.
My other favorite religious mapping (though not graphical), is this one . I think it's quite accurate.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: Or maybe it's just that Miami has more observant Jews than the Ft. Lauderdale area, but not as many total Jews.
*ding ding ding!*
In Religious history class at my Catholic school, the teacher once mapped out a kind of census of the world religions. Here math basically manipulated the numbers of massive population centers based on stats and tradition, etc. For instance, 90 percent of the population of France was included as Catholic, and about the same number for any officially Catholic country. What she came up with, improbably, was something like 1.5 Billion Catholics worldwide, out of the then population of about 6 Billion. Her numbers for christians was over 2 Billion.
This is of course, SO way over my gut instinct, and it says something about how we like to construct reality based on our need to fit in. I couldn't help but argue in class that the actual numbers of "Catholics" must be WAY lower, even among a population in a Catholic country because the church claims to "dissown automatically" members who violate the church's rules in a sufficiently grave manner. My gut again tells me that the number of "good Catholics" has to be a fraction of the official number.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
Orincoro, I was thinking something similar. The LDS map, at least, is based on numbers reported by the Church itself. The church counts as "members of record" everyone baptised (which usually happens at 8 years old), regardless of whether they are active or not. And the church doesn't automatically "disown" members, even those gravely violating church rules. (I, myself, had to write and specifically request that my name be removed or I would be counted Mormon even today.)
I think the maps would be more accurate if they could list only those who self-identify as a particlar religion.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
You'd have to conduct extensive, highly granular surveys to get that kind of information, though.
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
quote:When I was a kid, Mass was not more than 55 minutes. I really think that works in the Catholic's favor.
Then my mom started taking us to these protestant churches that averaged 2 hours, and I can't take more than 57 minutes of the Truth
I guess it's all what you're used to. Our normal services are an hour and ten minutes ( ), and when we occasionally go to meetings that last longer than that, I can just about set the clock by my kids' behavior. When they start being whiny and too fidgety, it's invariably an hour and ten minutes into the service. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote: because the church claims to "dissown automatically" members who violate the church's rules in a sufficiently grave manner.
quote:# Physical violence against a bishop # Attempting to preside over or concelebrate in Mass while being a deacon or lay person # Hearing and/or attempting to absolve confessions while being a deacon or lay person # Falsely accusing a priest of soliciting adultery while in confession # Attempting to marry while having a perpetual vow of chastity
quote: 1. Apostasy, 2. Heresy, 3. Schism, 4. Desecration of the Eucharist, 5. Physical force against the Pope, 6. Attempted sacramental absolution of a partner in adultery, 7. Ordination of a bishop without a Papal mandate (e.g. all bishops in the government-run Chinese Patriotic Church), 8. For non-electors present in the conclave, revelation of the details of the conclave, 9. Simoniacal provision of the Papal office, 10. Violation of the sacramental seal of confession by a priest or bishop, and 11. Procurement of a completed abortion.
In addition, excommunication is not the equivalent of disowning:
quote:While a person excommunicated is not damned by the Church, the person is barred from participating in its communal life. The outward sign of this loss of community involves barring the person from participating in liturgy, i.e., receiving the Eucharist or the other Sacraments. Certain other rights and privileges normally resulting from membership in the church are revoked, such as holding ecclesiastical office. Excommunication is intended to be only temporary, a "medicinal" procedure intended to guide the offender toward repentance. In the Roman Catholic Church excommunication is usually terminated by repentance, confession, and absolution. Offenses which incur excommunication must be absolved by a local ordinary (bishop or vicar general) or a priest whom the local ordinary designates.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
Regarding the Mormom ranch in Central Florida, I believe it's in Osceola County, which is due south of Orange County(Orlando) and also the home of our very own Icarus. I was surprised to see that Osceola County shows up as having less than 35% claiming to be religious adherents.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
quote:Originally posted by twinky: You'd have to conduct extensive, highly granular surveys to get that kind of information, though.
Yeah, that's why I said "could list" instead of "had listed". It's subtle, I know. Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
quote: quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: Services are about 1 to 1 1/2 hours, . . . .
O_O
When I was a kid, I timed them, and they averaged forty minutes.
Seriously? I go to an Orthodox Jewish Temple. My services start at 9:30 (although we usually get there at around 10:15) and end at around 1.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I know, GD. I've been resisting the temptation to call 'em all wimps. Posted by WntrMute (Member # 7556) on :
Hawaii and Nevada have no Unitarians.
I find this amusing.
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
GD, is that all one meeting? 3 1/2 hours?
Our "services" last 3 hours but involve 3 meetings. Our longest one, the worship service, is "only" 1:10.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Jenna, that is not really a meaningful question -- we don't have "meetings" as such. I believe GD is referring to the Shabbos morning prayers (the daily prayers take considerably less time). These include Shacharis (morning prayers), the reading of the week's Torah portion, and Musaf (an additional prayer added on Shabbos and holidays).
quote: 9:00-9:30 a.m. -- Morning Blessings and Pesukei De'zimrah. There are separate blessings to thank God for our thinking ability, our feet, our clothes, our eyesight, our ability to sit and walk, and even our digestive system.
9:30-9:45 a.m. -- Barchu, blessings from Shema Yisrael, Shema Yisrael itself, and blessings after Shema Yisrael. Shema is the Jewish pledge of allegiance -- proclaiming the unity of God and our acceptance of the Torah's commands.
9:45-10:00 a.m. -- Silent Amidah, where we recognize God as the holy one who protects and saves. We thank Him for the gift of Shabbat, and pray for world peace. People will be standing and perhaps swaying in more introspective prayer. Followed by the leader's repetition aloud.
10:00-10:45 a.m. -- The Torah is taken out, and the Torah portion of the week is read out loud in Hebrew. (The Torah is split into 54 portions, and read in its entirety through the course of the year.) The Torah is then returned to the ark, and the Haftarah portion of the prophets is read.
10:45-11:00 a.m. -- The rabbi speaks. [This may or may not happen every week.]
11:00 a.m. -- Musaf, which is the "additional" silent Amidah, with greater emphasis on the unique nature of Shabbat. This is also repeated aloud by the leader.
11:15 a.m. - Aleinu, closing songs, and shul announcements.
11:30 a.m. -- Kiddush and socializing.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
I'm pretty sure I can beat all of ya on time spent in religious services per week. Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
Thanks, rivka! I appreciate the description.
I was just wondering if you had ... you know ... that many hours spent sitting in one room trying to keep the kids quiet, or if it was a variety of things all within the same time-block. Of course, my numbers would be higher if I counted the socializing too.... Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
The kiddush at the end is actually not part of the services, nor counted as far as how long they go. The schedule I posted is for a shul (synagogue) with fairly short services.
As far as kids go, small children are generally NOT encouraged to be present for services. Some shuls offer childcare; many do not, which means the kids stay home with one parent.
dkw, almost certainly. Although IF we had any Jewish males (or females, for that matter) present who attended ALL the daily services (as is the ideal), they'd give you a run for your money. (1-2 hours each of the six regular days, plus 4-5 hours on Shabbos)
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:9:00-9:30 a.m. -- Morning Blessings and Pesukei De'zimrah. There are separate blessings to thank God for our thinking ability, our feet, our clothes, our eyesight, our ability to sit and walk, and even our digestive system.
Out of interest, do you still need to recite one of the blessings if you don't have the thing in question?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
The generally accepted answer to that question is no.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I searched and searched for a location for that Deseret Ranch. I kept finding vague allusions to 300,000 acres in the northeast of the county, straddling Orange and Brevard as well as Osceola. I think I finally found it. If my google-fu is any good, it stretches the definition of "Saint Cloud" by quite a bit. If this gives you a sense: it seems to be closer to I-95 than to I-4!
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: I know, GD. I've been resisting the temptation to call 'em all wimps.
Thank you for resisting.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Dag, I meant excommunication, and the biggest one that strikes me on the list is Abortion, or adultry. I would imagine a fair number of Catholics have had secret abortions or secret affairs in their lives.
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
), and when we occasionally go to meetings that last longer than that, I can just about set the clock by my kids' behavior. When they start being whiny and too fidgety, it's invariably an hour and ten minutes into the service. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)