Hello, I am new to posting in the forum, but have been reading for quite sometime. I will be working with some people who want to create a christian video game. Those of you who are religious, I am asking how much violence would be too much? I can't share the concept, but it does involve a certain biblical character and his adventures where he will be fighting animals and humans. Since this is a christian, what would be offensive and what wouldn't? I would like information on not just violence, but whatever else you can think of that could ruin the christian image.
I look forward to your responses! Thank you for your time!
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
*blink* Wait a second. This is a Biblical character and a Christian?
There aren't a lot of Biblical characters in the New Testament, and none of the Old Testament characters are Christian. Are you sure this isn't a Jewish game -- or is John of Patmos kickin' a** and taking names?
Posted by Bella Bee (Member # 7027) on :
Totally off subject - I used to baby-sit for a delightful little boy who went to a Church school, and had named his Action Man 'Jesus'. 'Jesus' used to go around stomping on Philistines and pulling their arms and legs off.
I felt like the Professor in the Narnia books. 'What do they teach them in these schools?'
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:none of the Old Testament characters are Christian.
Others disagree.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Well, yeah, but those others are wrong. Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
You mean you others.
But I'm pretty sure that truth is not determined by your opinion, so I'm not to conerned about it. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
No, seriously, they're wrong. If people get to choose which religion they are -- and the official position on this forum, for example, is that they DO -- then we can't with a straight face claim that someone like Samson, who clearly self-identified as a Jew, was Christian.
Mormons, for example, are Christians who also think of themselves as Jews, and heirs to Jewish continuity. This does not mean that all Jews think of themselves as Christians. Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I always figured "Christian" implied a decision to follow Jesus. I don't see how that can apply in the Old Testament.
-pH
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Tom, Mormons think of themselves as being included in the Abrahamic covenant, and of having a lineage in one of the 12 tribes would be more accurate. It's not just the tribe of Judah.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I was speaking broadly. Sorry about that.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: No, seriously, they're wrong. If people get to choose which religion they are -- and the official position on this forum, for example, is that they DO -- then we can't with a straight face claim that someone like Samson, who clearly self-identified as a Jew, was Christian.
Mormons, for example, are Christians who also think of themselves as Jews, and heirs to Jewish continuity. This does not mean that all Jews think of themselves as Christians.
The correct term for the majority of people in the Old Testament is "Hebrew" not Jew. And Mormons think of themselves as members of the Kingdom of Israel, which was made up of tribes that were ancestors of the sons of Jacob. The tribe of Judah, where Judaism gets it's name, is only a portion of the people of Israel. If someone in the days of the Old Testament called themselves a Jew, they were more than likely referring to their lineage instead of their religion. As time passed and Israel was conquered (many times), the tribe of Judah became the last of the tribes to remain in Israel (The rest were carted off as slaves, became parts of other civilizations, or were killed), and the term Jew came to be a blanket name for all Hebrews.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
As for how much violence is too much, just make sure there is very little detail in the action. The ESRB has several guidelines about violence. Since it's a Christian audience, I'd imagine you'd want to shoot for an E rating. When you aren't trying to aim at a broad, anyone and everyone audience, you don't need to worry about graphic violence. The question you really should be asking, rather than "How much is too much?" would be, "How much do we have to have to tell the story?"
Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
Let's see, how much violence is in the Bible? Hmm... I think anything goes in your video game. In fact, I think some of the things done in the bible are considered war crimes today. They sacraficed animals! Abraham was going to kill his kid! Moses lead the children of Israel out of Egypt to take the promised land from another nation! Somewhere in there they kill a whole city, women and children!
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
Posted by Brianna (Member # 9109) on :
Ok, let me clarify: The game is being created to aim towards a christian audience to teach people about the bible but yet still be fun. And since this character will be using a sword, I ask how much is too much in the aspect of blood. How much blood would be offensive? How much violence would deter from the message, that is the question, not whether or not the old testament or new testament figures regarded themselves as christian or not.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
If it's a FPS, I think a "divine retribution" weapon that turns your enemies into pillars of salt -- but only if you shoot them in the back -- would r0x0rZ.
---------
Seriously, I think that's a question we can't answer for you. How godly is YOUR violence? When you kill in the name of righteousness, do the unrighteous bleed? This is a sticky question for a lot of Christians, and I think it's highly unlikely that you're going to receive an answer that'll be acceptable to all audiences.
I know some Christians who would consider the mere idea of killing people in a game to be beyond the pale; I know others who'd feel insulted if, after killing someone, there wasn't any blood -- because they believe that this would cheapen the actual emotional impact of the act.
I guess MY question is: why is the player character killing? Why have you selected as the primary character for your game someone who must kill to achieve his goals? What lesson do you believe this death will teach? Is the killing incidental to the story, or is righteous wrath essential to the lesson that you're hoping to impart?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:If people get to choose which religion they are ... then we can't with a straight face claim that someone like Samson, who clearly self-identified as a Jew, was Christian.
Yes I can. I don't think the two are mutually exclusive.
quote:I always figured "Christian" implied a decision to follow Jesus. I don't see how that can apply in the Old Testament.
I believe that many Old Testament prophets did know of and follow Jesus, including Adam, Abel, Noah, Melchizedek, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Isiah, Elijah.
Some of these were also Jews (or Israelites).
I also am fully aware that this cannot be confirmed by reading the Old Testament.
edit: I can't belive I forgot Moses!
[ January 28, 2006, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: I believe that many Old Testament prophets did know of and follow Jesus, including Adam, Abel, Noah, Melchizedek, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Isiah, Elijah.
Some of these were also Jews (or Israelites).
I also am fully aware that this cannot be confirmed by reading the Old Testament.
That is a pretty bold statement there. What is that belief based on.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
My belief in this is based on what I believe to be revelations from God given to Joseph Smith and on other scriptures (including the Book of Mormon) revealed through Joseph Smith.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
quote:Originally posted by ricree101:
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: I believe that many Old Testament prophets did know of and follow Jesus, including Adam, Abel, Noah, Melchizedek, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Isiah, Elijah.
Some of these were also Jews (or Israelites).
I also am fully aware that this cannot be confirmed by reading the Old Testament.
That is a pretty bold statement there. What is that belief based on.
It's kind of an If-Then thing. All of the Old Testament prophets believed in the future coming of a Messiah (Look at Isaih 7:14: "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel". So here's the If-Then...If Jesus Christ was that son prophesied, then the Old Testament prophets were believers in the coming of Christ.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
What would a Christian video game even be like?
An RPG where Noah has to locate all the paired animals of the world, and at the same time fight the evils of Sodom and Gomorrah with his Godsmack Staff. It gives him +2 Rigteousness +2 Divinity and -3 Sin.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Yahoo games had an adorable "Noah" game. But to acquire the "delux" version, you have to shell out 20 bucks.
If you haven't done the trial of the delux version, have a go!
Edit: Oh wait, you just have to download the trial delux version.
[ January 29, 2006, 12:16 AM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: What would a Christian video game even be like?
An RPG where Noah has to locate all the paired animals of the world, and at the same time fight the evils of Sodom and Gomorrah with his Godsmack Staff. It gives him +2 Rigteousness +2 Divinity and -3 Sin.
Well, perhaps...but Sodom and Gomorrah happened a couple thousand years after Noah, so it would be unrealistic.
Seriously, that's the difficulty. A fun religious game is kind of oxymoronic. The Bible, while an excellent source of religious information, is pretty boring without using creative liberty and lots of it.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Well alright, where was the hotbed of sin at the time of the great flood?
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Well alright, where was the hotbed of sin at the time of the great flood?
Everywhere but inside Noah's house, if I remember correctly.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Sweet, that means we can drag it out and make sequels.
We'll call it Noah's Arc (like, story arc, see, it's a play on words!)
Five years from now, Noah's Arc III will be rocking Final Fantasy XV on the sales charts.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH: I always figured "Christian" implied a decision to follow Jesus. I don't see how that can apply in the Old Testament.
-pH
Christian seems to imply following Christ. Nowadays, Christ is synonymous with Jesus, but obviously it wasn't back then (in the Old Testament). So the argument could be made that they were Christians, followers of Christ. However, I am too tired to make this argument. I just thought I'd throw that out there.
And about the video game, if this hasn't already been asked, what's your target audience? The way I see it, if its something a parent will be buying, the less blood the better. If it's something the kid will be buying (assuming that the kid is a teenager with money to buy stuff) I would try to make it more realistic. Not gory, but if you want teenagers to think it is 'cool', it can't be bloodless. IMO.
Posted by Historian (Member # 8858) on :
I'm going to add a game collector's view to the mix. One who has not only collected, but has worked closely with the industry for nearly a decade.
I can not think of one single "Biblically" based game that was truly successful. Collectors see them as potential rarities, because they often do not sell well and have very limited releases. Often to specialized stores.
However there have been a couple that have hit the radar lately. From http://www.xrucifix.com/ there was Eternal War.
quote:Eternal War: Shadows of Light: If you think this is a walk in the park, you're dead wrong. Walk with John Coronado, trapped in torment by his own will. You were sent to help save his soul. Through the One he thought left him. Outsmarting deadly adversaries, bent on consuming his soul and yours. With awesomely high powered weapons with alternative firing modes it is your turn, to turn the tide. Seeking backup in battle, you can hook up with your friends in multiplayer mode to kick some demon scale. FAILURE is not an option!
Guess what you do in this one... walk around and slash stuff with a sword FPS style.
The other is more recent and came out on the current gen consoles (PS2, XBOX and GBA specifically) called "The Bible Game". It got a rating of PS2 (68.0%, XBOX (64.5%), GBA (35.0%) according to http://www.gamerankings.com
quote:This non-denominational Bible-based entertainment provides a quiz show style party game that will challenge all members of the family. Today’s technology teams with the Old Testament in mini games that represent stories from the Bible. It’s hearty fun you can enjoy individually or together, as a family. With Bible Game, you can feel good about your kids playing video games.
I should also mention that there is a RTS game coming out based the Left Behind books.
quote:LEFT BEHIND: Eternal Forces is a real-time strategy game of apocalyptic proportions based upon the bestselling Left Behind book series, created by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins. In this new genre, you'll join the ultimate fight of good against evil, commanding Tribulation Forces or the Global Community Peacekeepers and discover clues to uncover the truth about the worldwide disappearances.
But to answer your question, how much is too much...
Honestly it is going to depend on the target market. And I strong suggest your company look at the games they are currently playing and go from there. Research is the key.
And a few final thoughts...
I highly suggest that you do not market this as a "Religious Game". Keep the setting, the story and the moral lessons you want it to contain; but do not call it a "Christian Video Game".
Make the game fun. Seriously. I can not stress this point more. Make it fun and everyone will want to play.
If you wish to talk further contact me through this site.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
I can see it now. Noah taking on all the sinners Streets of Rage Style, or better yet, we can do it GTA style. We'll have Noah doing drive by's on the sinners while running over the biblical prostitutes in his chariot. It'll sell millions.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
The original Populus allowed you to play a distinctly Yahwehish god.
Posted by Brianna (Member # 9109) on :
Thanks Historian, I myself am an avid gamer. I have never played a religious game before, but having graduated college and needing a job, I decided to work with these people. They are mostly marketing christians, since the game will be distributed at christian music festivals (example: Creation Fest) and so forth. I know what you mean by not marketing it as a christian game, but that is not in my control, I am just the lead artist. So my question was coming from an artist standpoint and to visually show.
And to answer TomDavidson, "why is the player character killing?" Since they asked me not to share the concept, I can't get to detailed about why they are killing. The story itself is ripped from the bible, so it's not anything that isn't itself involved in the context of the story. " Why have you selected as the primary character for your game someone who must kill to achieve his goals?" As mentioned on the last question, it's to follow the context of the story in which the character does actually kill. "What lesson do you believe this death will teach?" Seeing as I'm not the person in charge, I don't really know what they plan on teaching through the killings. I just signed on recently and have yet to help them shape their plan. "Is the killing incidental to the story, or is righteous wrath essential to the lesson that you're hoping to impart?" Part of the story.
This will definately be a challenge. I've done lots of research on games since I play them and have studied cases of violence in video games. But seeing how this is aimed, I believe, towards the christian youth, I can't 100% say I know how to come at this situation.
I do thank you all for your comments! The input will help us decide how to address this issue.
Posted by cheiros do ender (Member # 8849) on :
Unneccessary and mindless violence (shown) is too much, for any audience; even the unneccessary, mindless audience.
Posted by Princess Leah (Member # 6026) on :
quote:But I'm pretty sure that truth is not determined by your opinion, so I'm not to conerned about it.
revelations from God given to Joseph Smith and on other scriptures (including the Book of Mormon) revealed through Joseph Smith.
Both quotes are from mph.
Huh. Iiiiiiiiiinteresting.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
quote:Unneccessary and mindless violence (shown) is too much, for any audience; even the unneccessary, mindless audience.
I dunno, I like a little unneccessary, mindless violence every now and then. I used to play State of Emergency and GTA III every now and then to blow off steam. Lately, it's been Halo II. It's very therapeutic.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I dunno, I like a little unneccessary, mindless violence every now and then.
The questions here:
1) Is mindless violence at odds with Christian principles? 2) Must a game designed to promote Christianity comply with all Christian principles?
Posted by Swampjedi (Member # 7374) on :
1) Mindless anything seems to me to be at odds with Christian principles. Unless of course it's mindless devotion to the conservative cause!
2) Try defining Christian principles. It's so broad as to be nebulous.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
*nod* While I don't agree with your insinuation, I agree that defining "Christian principles" for the purpose of the argument is nearly impossible. Must, for example, the game be free?
But if we accept as a given that this is impossible, is it possible that a game with mindless violence can be a valuable Christian teaching tool in other ways?
Posted by Swampjedi (Member # 7374) on :
No. [In response to the free game issue]The Bible (OT, and Paul reiterates) says not to muzzle the ox as he treads out the grain. In other words, the producers should partake in the fruits of their labor.
[ January 29, 2006, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Swampjedi ]
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
from princess leah:
quote:But I'm pretty sure that truth is not determined by your opinion, so I'm not to conerned about it.
revelations from God given to Joseph Smith and on other scriptures (including the Book of Mormon) revealed through Joseph Smith.
quote:My belief in this is based on what I believe to be revelations from God given to Joseph Smith and on other scriptures (including the Book of Mormon) revealed through Joseph Smith.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Leah -- I don't understand what you are trying to say.
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
I remember watching a bit on CNN about Christian video games gaining popularity. Unfortunately, this link was all I could find. It's not the same story and somewhat contradicts the one I saw.
Ont he other hand, I did see this. It's a site that reviews games from a Christian perspective. I was glad to see that they didn't feel the need to bash my favorite game, WoW, while still warning that there is a good bit of violence and that other players may be offensive. They even offer tips on dealing with them.
Maybe if you check out their reviews, you can get a feel for how much violence is generally considered appropriate. And remember, Christians are used to dealing with the real world. If your game doesn't flat out insult my beliefs, I can deal.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
I think that it's a cool idea to teach the Bible through a video game.
As a Christian, I, for instance, read all the stories in the Bible to my kids. The idea that Abraham or Moses weren't necessarily "Christians" does not in any way detract from the fact that they are an important part of Christian history.
My kids play Age of Mythology (AOM). They are very well versed in the characters of Greek, Norse, Altlantean and Egyptian mythology because of this game. They not only know the names of the characters, but they know which are related to which and a little bit about the architecture and social structure of each civilization. I have no problem with the level of violence and blood in this game. The blood is there but more like a stain on the ground than a wound.
I can very easily see AOM with an Old Testament plotline.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
What really throws a wrench into the works is the New Testament, with all that forgiveness and mercy. Can you imagine a game with special "cheek-turning" attacks?
Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
Awesome! A timing-based counterattack move that shames your enemy into submission! Passive-aggressive combat! W00t!
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I'm trying to figure out how to work a martyrdom mechanic into it. Your opponent kills you, you die, but suddenly all of his units convert. You win!
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Instead of gory violence per death scene, how about the hand of Lucifer reaching up from the ground and snatching the souls of the dead disbeleiver, then with appropriate screams/demonic laughter, sliding back town into the bowels of the earth.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
There wasn't an awful lot of that in the Old Testament, was there?
Posted by Swampjedi (Member # 7374) on :
Yikes.
I remember playing a very bad Bible knockoff of King's Quest... (some early number). It was terrible. Scarred me forever.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I remember "nonviolent" version of Doom that came in a cereal box. It was called "Chex Quest", and you "teleported" the soggies back into their soggie dimension.
Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
I never really understood (some) Christians' objections to the original Doom. The player character is killing demons. Surely if a portal to hell opened up and demons started pouring out, killing them would be the good thing to do, yes?
--Enigmatic
Posted by human_2.0 (Member # 6006) on :
When I closed my eyes, all I saw were those stupid little demon thingies... didn't make for restful sleeping, nor very edifying dreams...
if you are going to have a hackem Bible game, you should play Samson. Then the blood and gore kinda makes sense.
Or you could make it a quest/puzzle game that spans the whole Old Testament, with many a "battle" quests, but that isn't the only thing.
if you were going to do New Testament, it would be interesting to have preaching & converting be the focal point, but the action would entail traveling, getting past hostile guards, and escaping hostile citizens. Paul was always in and out of the prisons, dodging guards, having angels let him out, etc... would make for an unusual set of rules.
A post New Testament (darker) version could entail Roman coliseums. An even farther version could focus on... I better quit before I suggest something really macabre.
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