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We made an agreement that they wouldn't have to be introduced to this type of situation for atleast 6 months to a year.

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We made an agreement that they wouldn't have to be introduced to this type of situation for atleast 6 months to a year.

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I doubtful that deceiving your children (by pretending you don't have any romantic relationships) is a good idea for them.

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Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
I doubtful that deceiving your children (by pretending you don't have any romantic relationships) is a good idea for them.

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Waiting to introduce a new person into your children's lives is a good idea for many reasons, and is not even close to "pretending", nor is it deceitful. It's just wise.

The last thing children need when recovering from the trauma of divorce is to have mom or dad bringing home new "friends" one after another who may or may not be in the picture for very long. If they become attached and the relationship doesn't work out, they go through a little mini-divorce, over and over and over. They will start refusing to make attachments to anyone for fear that they too will be gone in a few weeks or months.

It's far better to make sure your relationship is going to last before bringing your kids into it. Sound like Beatnix is being wise, and not remotely decietful.
 

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Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
 
Oops, I'm too slow. Farmgirl said it far better than I did...
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 
I am very glad that I never knew about it if my parents dated when I was young.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Interesting thought, FG. You've obviously thought it through more than I have.
 

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Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
 
beatnix,

I would agree that you have the right to be upset over the breaking of the agreement, but trying to enforce it may do more harm than good.

How did you find out that your ex was introducing her boyfriend to your kids? If it was because the kids expressed concern to you, then it is probably worth the battle.

OTOH, her situation with regards to dating is slightly different than yours. Since she has been dating this guy for a while, she may be committed to him and eager to encorporating the kids into the mix. If she is a better person while in the company of her BF, than she is alone with the kids, she may be doing the kids a favor.

I guess my point is that the agreement isn't as important as the kids best interests. You have to decide if the introduction of this new person will be more detrimental to the kids than fighting the battle with your ex and causing your co-parenting skills to diminish.

Just my 2 cents.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
My parents divorced at twelve after cheating on each other repeatedly. They tried various "hide the boyfriend/girlfriend from the kids" methods, all of which were some variety of "shameful" -- but none of them successful.

Personally -- and I know you're not looking for this sort of advice, but here it is anyway -- I think you're making a mistake by dating at ALL right now. Your ex is a disgrace, but you know that already. You, on the other hand, are still a bit of a wreck, and shouldn't be dating either -- especially if you worry about what your girls might think.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
I completely agree with Tom.
 

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Posted by ctm (Member # 6525) on :
 
Everything I've read about this and my own expereince with my kids and their dad's girlfriend jibes with what FG and maui babe say. I'd just add that even if the relationship is going well, it is still hard and confusing for kids to see mom or dad with someone else. My daughter gets along fine with the girlfriend, but still finds it very stressful to deal with her.

Bottom line, though, is that she is breaking an agreement. I suppose it was just an agreement between you two and not part of your settlement?

(by the way, beatnix, I love your line that the boyfriend is okay, you hate him but he's decent enough. Exactly how I feel about my ex's gf-- I know she's not a horrible person, but I still hate her and wish she would dry up and blow away...)
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
Farmgirl, I absolutely agree with you. What I was saying (or at least, what I meant to say) wasn't that I'd bring home every casual date, or even semi-serious ones, to meet my kids. I agree that it would be pretty damaging for the kids to get attached to them. In fact, it seems so clear to me that that is the case that it didn't even occur to me that beatnix might be considering introducing them to someone he wasn't very, very serious about, which may have been a mistake on my part.

To clarify (and keep in mind that I don't actually have kids, so my opinion on this subject may not be worth that much to those of you with them), while I wouldn't introduce my kids to someone I was less than quite serious about, I also wouldn't try to hide from them the fact that I was dating. Kids pick up on more than they're given credit for, and I think that it's probably common for efforts to keep them in the dark about this kind of thing to fail.
 

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Posted by Stasia (Member # 9122) on :
 
This is a tough situation, especially since your kids are so young. Your ex sounds like she is selfish and immature so I don't know if talking to her about the situation will help.

However, I have to echo LadyDove's words of caution. You and the ex will need a civil relationship in the future if you are to co-parent these kids (think of when your kids are teenagers and trying to play one against the other to get their way) so you should only restrict her visits with them if you truly, truly think her actions are harming them.
 

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Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
 
I guess it depends on what you mean by "dating", Noemon. I've been on several "dates" that my children never knew about. I went out when they were with their dad, and never mentioned it to them. Once I started dating one person exclusively, THEN they met him and knew about our "dates".

It was not hard at all to keep my children from knowing that I was casually dating though.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
I don't know if I agree with Tom about the "no-dating" thing or not--it completely depends on how you're doing emotionally, and where you are in terms of healing from your divorce. I will say that the fact that you hate your ex's boyfriend strikes me as a warning sign that you may not be over that relationship enough for a new relationship to be healthy for you, but I don't know you well enough to make that call with any certainty. My marriage ended, in my eyes, last May* (in Christine's eyes it ended the October or November before that, and if I'd been willing to see it at that point I'd have agreed, but it took a while for me to be willing to), and at that point I took an official 1 year off from dating, period. I think that it's been a good choice for me, and that I'm in a better place than I would be if I'd dived back into the dating world right out of the gate.

*The actual court date for the divorce is going to be sometime in the next month or so; I should be finding out when it'll be next week. We've been apart since August of 2004, though.
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
Why do the kids need to know where you're going and what you're doing? A simple "you're going to stay with Grandma for a while tonight while I do something with a friend of mine" is more than sufficient and isn't deceiving them in any way. And what's wrong with limiting your date nights to the nights when your kids are at the other parents' house, so there is no need for them to know you've been out at all?

I had occasion to ask my therapis this once, when we were discussing what happened before my Mom remarried and she said that she never advises divorced clients to introduce boyfriends/girlfriends to the kids for many of the reasons Farmgirl brought up.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
Maui babe, I've written about 2/3 or 4 different replies to your message. I think I'm going to have to say that I shouldn't have weighed in on this one; without having kids, or having close relationships with anyone else's children, I don't really have much of a grasp of how forthcoming it's appropriate to be with your kids about what you're doing from day to day. I can spin hypotheticals all I want, but they're no substitute for actually having had the experience of having children.
 

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Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
 
It's cool Noemon. I think a big problem is the inadequacies of the language... one of my pet peeves is that the only word for the special man in my life is "boyfriend". Ugh. I'm gonna be a grandmother in a few months. I don't want a boyfriend! That's what I had when I was in 7th grade. Mine actually suggested that I introduced him as my Sweet Baboo.

A woman I work with here who's probably in her late 60's lost her long time companion last week. Her daughter called to tell us her mother's "boyfriend" died and she'd be away from work for a while. My coworker always called him "my old man", which is even worse to me than "boyfriend".

To me, "dating" means going out with someone to get to know them. It does NOT include any implication of physical intimacy. (I know, I'm a dinosaur.)
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
It's funny, to be voicing your opinion on something and then realize what shaky ground you're really on. Until you asked I thought that I had a pretty good bead on how I'd handle this situation, but as I responded to you my thoughts on the subject just kind of unraveled.

I know exactly what you mean about the inadequacies of the language. "girlfriend" is just so juvenile. "My old lady" sounds like something out of a bad novel to me. Lover is just cheesy. Partner (which I actually like for a serious significant other) implies that they're of the same sex as you are, at least to many...there really just isn't a good term for a significant other in an adult, non-married relationship. You can generally glean information about a society by the things they don't have words for; this is no exception, I'm thinking.
 

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Posted by Stray (Member # 4056) on :
 
I'm going to chime in with the "it might be too soon for you to start dating" people. My divorce just became final about a month ago; my ex and I were only married for three years and change, no kids, no shared property, the actual divorce procedure about as clean and simple as it gets, and I'm still going to be a long time getting over it. I decided late last year that I'm in Dating Timeout until at least January 1st, 2007, and possibly longer, depending on how I feel when that time rolls around. For about a decade now I've been setting myself up for the exact same type of crappy relationship over and over again, and it's going to take at least that long to sort myself out in therapy so that I stop doing that. [edit: I mean that it will take until at least 1/1/2007 to do that, not that it will take another decade of therapy to undo the first decade of poor mate choices ]

That said, you know yourself better than anyone, and you know better than anyone whether you're ready to date again. And I do tend to agree with the people saying that your wife is wrong for breaking your agreement, and that it's best that kids aren't exposed to the new relationship until it looks to be on fairly stable footing.
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
'My main squeeze'
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
Actually, I think one of the best ways to get over someone is to date again.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
That's if everything else is fine. I think with a divorce or any major life trauma, it's better not to date for a little bit.
 

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Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
 
Hmm. Well, I think people are ready to begin dating at different times after a divorce - there's no set "rule" about it. Personally, I began dating really soon after my divorce. As Noemon pointed out, a marriage can end long before it legally ends, and mine did. Dating right after a divorce does not mean someone is unstable, uncaring, or a set-up for failure. The man I began dating right after my divorce is Mr. Opera, and we've been together for 6 years now. But for others it doesn't work that way.

But - involving the kids in your relationship is another thing. I think kids shouldn't be introduced until one is certain that it's a lasting relationship. To cut your ex some slack, she *has* dated this man for almost a year. However, especially since she doesn't have your kids all the time, there's no reason for the boyfriend to be there every time the kids are over.

I think the key is a slow introduction. Let me give another real-life example: My ex was furious that I began dating so soon, and even after Mr. Opera and I had been together for over a year would still complain that he shouldn't be around the kids, etc. Well, my ex began finally dating someone, and the same weekend my kids met her she spent the night at my ex's house. My kids were FAR more concerned about the strange woman sleeping in Daddy's bed (even though it'd been almost 2 years after our divorce) than they were about meeting my new partner over a year earlier.

Point is - you have to figure out what's right for you and your kids. We can give opinions all we want, but we don't live with you.

space opera
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 

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Well, I think people are ready to begin dating at different times after a divorce - there's no set "rule" about it

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Partner (which I actually like for a serious significant other) implies that they're of the same sex as you are, at least to many...

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It can also imply that you are living together, like a short version of "life partner".
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
The religion to which I once belonged required a year of courtship before marriage, a year of separation before divorce, and a year of chastity following any divorce. I think these are all excellent ideas.
 

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Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
 
So, is that a total of 2 years of chastity at the end? One before the divorce and one after? I'm surprised that religion has any male members.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I think more highly of men than that.
 

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Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
 

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So, is that a total of 2 years of chastity at the end? One before the divorce and one after? I'm surprised that religion has any male members.

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Originally posted by TomDavidson:The religion to which I once belonged required a year of courtship before marriage, a year of separation before divorce, and a year of chastity following any divorce. I think these are all excellent ideas.

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Originally posted by Noemon:
I know exactly what you mean about the inadequacies of the language. "girlfriend" is just so juvenile. "My old lady" sounds like something out of a bad novel to me. Lover is just cheesy. Partner (which I actually like for a serious significant other) implies that they're of the same sex as you are, at least to many...there really just isn't a good term for a significant other in an adult, non-married relationship. You can generally glean information about a society by the things they don't have words for; this is no exception, I'm thinking.

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Sweetheart?
 

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Posted by sweetbaboo (Member # 8845) on :
 
A fellow teacher at my old school called her partner (you're right, it IS awkward) her significant other. I thought that was weird but couldn't think of a better way to descirbe the relationship, "the man/woman I'm dating".

Personally, I'm partial to Sweet Baboo, but that's just me

/rerail

I think you are the only judge of when you're ready to date.

Again good luck.
 

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Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
POOSSLQ

Pronounced Possil-Q, standing for Person Of Opposite Gender Sharing Living Quarters. Only works for live-in relationships, of course, and doesn't necessarily imply dating. But I like it.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I really love "paramour." It's too bad that "beau" is out of style.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Oh, I know: gentleman caller.
 

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Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
 

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Person Of Opposite Gender Sharing Living Quarters

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Wouldn't that be POOGSLQ? I've got a feeling it must be "opposite sex".
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 

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Should I be so upset about this. Am I being too protective of the situation?

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For me, I keyed on this more than the other part.

I hate to say this, but while you certainly have every right to feel upset, that right doesn't earn you squat for actual action. In other words, unless she's doing something illegal or dangerous, you have no power to force her to keep the agreement. You're best off accepting that, gritting your teeth, and bracing yourself for the inevitable POW swap (my favorite term for picking the kids up from the ex) fallout. The more fully you accept that you have no power over the other household, the easier you will make it for your kids. Just try to keep your environment at home as steady and peaceful as you can make it.

If it helps at all, I used to lead a step family support group. We saw this sort of thing with virtually every family that circulated through our group. The only ones who didn't have this problem didn't have an ex in the picture to get mad at. Two of our families eventually were able to get along well enough with their ex's that they could effect some influence on their child's environment in the other household, but it took them years to get to that point. I think don't know many situations where it could be accomplished fresh from the divorce.

And I second Tom's sentiments on the situation. Dating right now isn't that great an idea. You need to be putting all your energy into creating a stable, secure environment for your kids while giving yourself time to heal from the divorce. IMO, of course.
 

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Posted by Rico (Member # 7533) on :
 
Having personally dealt with the situation during my parents divorce,I really think FarmGirl has a point. Unless you are truly serious about the relationship with your current significant other, you shouldn't make them part of your family life. The worst thing you can possibly do in my opinion is to bring in a stranger (to your kids) and start forcing a relationship that may not ever develop between them and your kids.

Another thing, when you do introduce your kids, don't ever "brag" about them. I hated this because it made feel like nothing more than an object. It puts pressure on your kids to have them "like" this new person instead of it being the way it should be, that is, the other way around.

So my views on this personally are: If you feel ready to date, date, don't hide it from your kids. On the flipside though, you don't have to hide things from your kids to keep them private, only mix your family and your SO when you think you're committed enough to the relationship to make it last a while.
 

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Posted by Sharpie (Member # 482) on :
 
I live about a mile away from my ex-husband. My (teenaged) children live with him. We decided this together. It has not been a perfect situation, of course. I have spent many a sleepless night composing email after email in my mind. I have, thankfully, not sent any of those insane emails.

Two days after our divorce was final, he remarried. His new wife is, as you so kindly put it, a “decent enough person”. She also has two teenagers. I privately considered this timing ridiculously bad. I have thought that they handled things pretty poorly. I composed quite a few mental emails to BOTH of them .

What has worked for me has been to be fairly aggressive about helping my kids get THROUGH all of this. I really don’t have a say in how he lives his own life. No court would -- or should -- grant me power over my ex’s love life. But I can -- and do -- call either of them up quite frequently and say things like, “So and so is having a hard time this month; let’s set up a meeting/do some talking/find a way to help.” And THAT is the paradigm that has allowed me to feel powerful. “How can we help the kids deal with this?”

You can’t say (in my humble opinion), “you aren’t allowed to have your new SO hang around with our kids.” But you can say, “It seems like our kids have concerns; let’s talk about ways to address their concerns.” Because this isn’t about her at all, really. It is about gently and wisely helping your little girls deal with the choices that she makes.

It sounds like you have been wise and strong so far, honestly. It sounds like you want them to have a good relationship with their mother. This is admirable. I have found that at least TRYING to keep my own relationship with my ex as positive as I can has really helped my kids, as well.

That’s way more than 2 cents worth, but I’m trying to get rid of all these pennies…
 

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Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
 
I do think you have every right to be upset, and to want new relationships kept seperate from kids.
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
beatnix, I hate to say this but your ex-wife didn't live up to the agreements you made while you were married so she's unlike to start keeping her promises now. From what you've told us, your wife has been putting her own desires above the welfare of your children for several years. She's not going to change that behavior just because you are now divorced.

The bottom line is that your daughters are suffering and will continue to suffer because of the selfish behavior of their mother. The best you can do as their father is to give them the tools they will need to deal with it. I know people who have been able to forgive their parents of some pretty ugly behavior and become loving well adjusted adults. It is possible. You can't change your childrens mother, but you can help your daughters to grow up with love and self confidence. Make that your goal rather than agonizing of the mistakes their mother continues to make.
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
The Rabbit is wise. Excellent post.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

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I really love "paramour."

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I would agree that you have the right to be upset over the breaking of the agreement, but trying to enforce it may do more harm than good.

How did you find out that your ex was introducing her boyfriend to your kids? If it was because the kids expressed concern to you, then it is probably worth the battle.

OTOH, her situation with regards to dating is slightly different than yours. Since she has been dating this guy for a while, she may be committed to him and eager to encorporating the kids into the mix. If she is a better person while in the company of her BF, than she is alone with the kids, she may be doing the kids a favor.

I guess my point is that the agreement isn't as important as the kids best interests. You have to decide if the introduction of this new person will be more detrimental to the kids than fighting the battle with your ex and causing your co-parenting skills to diminish.

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