Somebody posted a while ago on freecycle, asking for help writing an essay. The lady has been out of school for 10 years but is now trying to finish high school. She says she didn't do well in English back then, and has no idea how to do her assignment.
I sent her an email (my first mistake). I said that I think essays are fun and that I'd be happy to help her. Oops.
Her assignment is a pretty standard persuasive essay (though it's not called that in the assignment) telling her to either agree or disagree with a provided passage and write a standare five paragraph essay. I sent her this link and asked her exactly what kind of help she needed.
She replies with "I'm just lost. I don't even know where to begin." So I say, "Okay, well first you have to decide what the main point of the essay (the one in the assignment) was. What was the main point the writer wanted the reader (you) to agree with?"
She says, "Okay, thanks for nothing."
Now, I think I'm being nice, trying to help her learn what she needs to know to complete her assignment. I also think she's trying really hard to get me to write it for her, which I won't do.
Grrr.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Boon, I get those sometimes when I'm tutoring. "I'm really tired, I just finished playing basketball, can you just tell me the answer?" "Will you tell me how to word it?" "What should I say for the first sentence?" "I'm in a hurry, I have lots of homework! Please hurry up!"
I have to say "I'm sorry, I can't do the work for you or tell you the answers, but I can work with you to help you come up with the answers yourself. You're very smart and I know you can do this. Why don't you just look at it and try? We would go much faster if you would make a real effort to work on what's assigned. Why not listen to the questions I'm asking and try your best to come up with some answers? I know you can." etc. etc.
Sometimes it's like pulling teeth. You have to not let them bully you into doing the work, because some of them definitely will try.
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
Heh, when I was in school, some kids thought that since I was the "smart one" I would give them the answers. Since this was elementary school when it started, I took it literally when they asked for help. It was amazing how little help these kids wanted when they discovered that I wouldn't give them the answers.
--Mel
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
My lab partner in honors chemistry in high school was this bitchy, airhead actress chick who was in some soap opera and some movie with Hilary Duff and thought she was the best thing since sliced bread. I remember one day, I'd never even SPOKEN to her before, and she came up to me, gave me a hug, asked me how my summer was, and before I could even get an, "Excuse me, who the heck are you?" out, proceeded to prattle on about how she went on tour with Britney Spears. She never did any work because she'd pout at the boys until they did it for her.
I was used to the normal lab partner arrangement. As the "smart one," I do all the actual thought while my lab partner does set-up and clean up and stuff.
This girl wouldn't do ANYTHING. She just expected me to give her the answers, and she wouldn't contribute anything. She'd leave the classroom when it was time for clean up so that I had to do it all myself. My teacher figured out pretty quickly what was going on and started assigning us separate grades, though.
-pH
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Man, this thread brings back some bad memories. All those people mad at me cause I wouldn't let them copy my answers.
*twitch*
I sympathize, Boon.
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
Hm. I've been on both sides of this, though usually the other side is just me asking to borrow notes. Which is only a lesser sin.
On the other hand, when I do tutoring, I set a pretty firm policy: I ask which problems they have trouble with. I set up a similar problem, with a few key differences to think through. I walk them through my made-up problem. Then I hand them theirs and ask them to think it out and I'd explain things but not tell them what to do.
Luckily, I've tutored only fairly smart, intellectually ambitious kids, and they liked that style of teaching.
Posted by ambyr (Member # 7616) on :
Well, at least they want something that occasionally is free?
This showed up on my freecycle list the other week:
"WANTED: Bulletin Board, Diamond Earrings or Necklace ... Also, need something to complement my tennis bracelet (not picky, as long as it's at least 1/2 karat)."
I about fell out of my chair in shock.
Posted by littlemissattitude (Member # 4514) on :
When I was tutoring, people were always pulling the "just tell me the answer" thing on me. After awhile, my stock line was, "Nobody gave me the answers when I took the class [tutors were required to have taken the courses they tutored and to have received an A or B grade in them], so will you explain to me why I should give you the answer?" That usually nipped the problem in the bud. But I had one student who was so adamant, repeatedly, that it was my job to give her the answers to her homework, that I finally just started telling her, "I don't know, and even if I did I wouldn't tell you" when she directly asked for an answer. Of course, she complained. I don't know how far up the chain of command she took it, but I never heard anything back about it and I do know that my immediate superiors told her that it wasn't my job to do her homework for her.
Posted by Kitsune (Member # 8290) on :
Darn, no one asks for my homework I feel slightly offended now Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
I am actually surprised they let something like that on the list. The chances for plagerism are pretty high. Nuts.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
*looks at the situations...*
*ROFL*
rofl.
I got paid to do other people's essays, they gave me their work book and I got between 20-50$ per essay I was told they got good marks .
Since I'm in Computer Sience I rarely get enough essays invovling things I like ex: history. This girl named Sam needed help so she paid me to write it, I liked doing it and got moeny for it.
So your all missing out on this one in a life time cash crop.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
If I were you, I would not admit to any such thing under my full name. It is extremely unethical.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
quote:If I were you, I would not admit to any such thing under my full name. It is extremely unethical.
*your* full name Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
No, he has it right, you have it wrong.
He said, "If I were you," so the rest of the sentence is speaking from his perspective.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Hey, Kitsune, can I see how you did number 43? I was totally confused by that one.
When I was in high school I got a job in a fast food place and had a manager who was in college. I wrote a couple of essays for her, simply because I was excited at the idea of doing college level work and getting good marks on it. The novelty wore off after the second essay, though, and I stopped helping her.
Posted by Miro (Member # 1178) on :
I think not actually doing something unethical is generally more important than not admitting it.
Blayne - Would you get mad if someone called you a fraud? What if they called you a liar? By selling those papers, you are making both accusations true.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
And I'ld say "your momma" in responce to those accusations should some1 call me those and let it drop. No one's asked me to do any for a while now and "in for a penny and in for a pound" alot of stuff I do is technically "unethical" So it really doesn't matter. Its impossible that anyone would care enough to try to get me in trouble for it. Besides they were fun to do and excersized my mind, I put alot of work into doing a good job I have no regrets.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Blayne, that's total crap.
-pH
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Besides they were fun to do and excersized my mind, I put alot of work into doing a good job I have no regrets.
Hmm. Too bad they didn't exercise the mind of the person receiving the grade.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
Fraud or a liar? Not really, he's pretty honest about it.
EDIT - although, I hope the writing is better than what you post here.
Posted by Miro (Member # 1178) on :
To us, maybe. Not to the teachers that assign and read the work. Or anyone else who reads the essay and takes it as being the work of the person who paid for it. Or anyone that student submits his or her grades to (such as colleges or potential employers).
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: No one's asked me to do any for a while now and "in for a penny and in for a pound" alot of stuff I do is technically "unethical" So it really doesn't matter.
This doesn't follow.
quote:Its impossible that anyone would care enough to try to get me in trouble for it.
And this is completely irrelevant. Lack of punishment has nothing to do with morality.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:Besides they were fun to do and excersized my mind, I put alot of work into doing a good job I have no regrets.
I can't decide if that's supposed to be 'exercised' or 'exorcised'. Either way, I don't see any evidence that it worked.
Posted by Historian (Member # 8858) on :
quote:Originally posted by Uprooted:
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Besides they were fun to do and excersized my mind, I put alot of work into doing a good job I have no regrets.
Hmm. Too bad they didn't exercise the mind of the person receiving the grade.
They learned a valuable lesson.
Someone will always be willing to do what you are not willing to do yourself and anything can be bought.
Posted by Kitsune (Member # 8290) on :
Thanks, Noemon, haha
quote:Originally posted by Juxtapose: EDIT - although, I hope the writing is better than what you post here.
Ouch, Blayne, do you need a bandaid?
When I was a freshman, my math teacher's TA filled in my missing homework assignments. He wanted to go out with me in return, though. I said no thanks, kay, bye!
I copy math homework all the time though.. 'cause math homework is cruel and unusual punishment!
Though I heard of people write essays for others, I never heard anyone I knew personally doing that. I mean, isn't the style of writing different for everyone? If the teacher can't notice the difference, that teacher seriously needs to get to know his/her students better.. or he/she needs to start reading the essays.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:When I was a freshman, my math teacher's TA filled in my missing homework assignments. He wanted to go out with me in return, though. I said no thanks, kay, bye!
So in fact, you not only bought your way out of homework, you didn't pay up? That is if anything even more disgusting.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
That's an interesting way of looking at it, KoM. It could only be considered her not paying up if she agreed to the terms beforehand. It is not clear from her post that that was the case. If she did not, then your statement is irrelevent.
I still think it's a bad idea no matter what. You don't learn by having over people do your homework for you.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I have to say, with math homework especially it's incredibly nice to have the answers at your disposal while you're doing the problem. So I wouldn't consider a tutor giving someone the answer and then working backwards with them so that they can get it themselves "doing someone's homework for them". Because, for example, if I don't understand a problem correctly and answer incorrectly and then don't get the homework back for a week chances are what we learned in that week was based on what I didn't understand, and I'm in twice as much trouble.
It makes me so angry when teachers go out of their way to assign the even number problems (the odd ones being in the back of the book). Because in order to recieve credit we have to show our work, so giving us the answers isn't going to let us cheat, and it really helps us learn. Which is, you know, what we're in college to do.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Except figuring it out by reverse engineering is NOT the same as actually figuring out what to do.
If you want to be sure you are doing them right, many textbooks have an optional solution guide that'll walk you through similar sample problems.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
quote:Do your own frigging homework!
Ah, memories.
-Perelandra
Posted by Kitsune (Member # 8290) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men:
quote:When I was a freshman, my math teacher's TA filled in my missing homework assignments. He wanted to go out with me in return, though. I said no thanks, kay, bye!
So in fact, you not only bought your way out of homework, you didn't pay up? That is if anything even more disgusting.
I never said I'd do anything with him. I was actually joking when I told him to "hook it up, dude!" He said that he'll think about it. At the end of the week, my teacher said all my assignments were cleared. I thanked the guy, and he asked me out. I said, "nah dude it's okay".
He always threatened to change my (legitimate) scores, though, whenever I teased him or didn't go along with his views on something.
And I'm not disgusting.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Well, it does seem that your sin in this case os a sin of omission. But copying other people's math solutions is indeed disgusting.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Joking around like, "Hook it up, dude" isn't the same as asking him to do it.
I'm really glad I'm not held to the various things I say in jest.
-pH
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Except figuring it out by reverse engineering is NOT the same as actually figuring out what to do.
If you want to be sure you are doing them right, many textbooks have an optional solution guide that'll walk you through similar sample problems.
Not only that, but there's nothing stopping a student from doing the odd numbered problems themselves if they need a few practice problems where the answer is known. If I were a math teacher, having to grade dozens of students' work on a daily basis, I'd probably assign only the even numbered problems too. For those problems, if you got the answer, it's likely you knew how to do the problem. If you got a wrong answer, then I could check your work to find your mistake and show it to you. Sounds like a perfectly valid way for a teacher to make efficient use of his or her time to me.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
In high school calc, my teacher would assign more or less only the problems that had the answers, for the reasons blacwolve listed. Getting the right answer to the problem wasn't even worth anything without the work. Knowing, for example, that x=3 doesn't help you work backwords in the problem unless you already have some idea on how to do it already. If that helps me learn the process better, what's the harm in that? Not only that, but with the answers there to check, I won't go through the whole assignment mistakenly doing it wrong, and getting set in my mind an incorrect process.
Posted by Kasie H (Member # 2120) on :
quote: But copying other people's math solutions is indeed disgusting.
I think this extremely melodramatic.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Indeed? Which part of cheating do you consider acceptable?
Posted by Raventhief (Member # 9002) on :
Copying math homework is no more or less reprehensible than plagiarizing an essay, it's just easier to get away with. As to morality...
Situation. An acquaintance offers me $20 to write an essay on the topic of (eg) Shakesperian sonnets. I am not told that the person has an assignment that matches the topic, and I ask no questions. I do the essay, get my silver, and go home. My acquaintance now turns in the essay with his name on it and gets a grade. Clearly the acquaintance has done something wrong, but have I? Now change it. I know of the existance of the assignment, but I don't know he intends to turn in my work as his own. Now am I in the wrong? Where does culpability begin?
As engineering students, I and my fellows were strongly encouraged to work together. I do not consider this plagiarism, because it was not a case of one person does an assignment, then someone else copies the work. We did the work together, side-by-side, all of us contributing and checking each other's work. To my mind this is akin to discussing ideas in an essay and proofreading, rather than having someone else do an essay in one's place.
Posted by Kitsune (Member # 8290) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Well, it does seem that your sin in this case os a sin of omission. But copying other people's math solutions is indeed disgusting.
Define disgusting. Is it, pick-your-nose-in-public disgusting? Or is it, farting-during-an-english-final disgusting?
Relax, sir. I'm sorry if I disgust you, but I don't like being called "disgusting".
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Why do so many of Blayne's posts about PRC make sense now?
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Make more sense, Dagonee. Saying "make sense" goes too far.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Good point, ElJay.
I should have said his posting them makes sense now. Not the content.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
*nod* That I will not quibble with.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I think copying math homework is worse than copying an essay, but I'm not sure why. Beyond the obvious, which is that math homework has only one answer so it's to be expected that everyone who did the problems right got the same thing. And math problems involve a lot less work than writing an essay.
Should that factor into it? I think so. I can forgive anyone for having a weak moment and copying some calculus homework right before class, but if you pay someone to write your doctoral dissertation* that's completely reprehensible.
*I realize that having someone else write your dissertation is pointless, since you'll still be called upon to defend it, but I like the analogy.
Posted by Miro (Member # 1178) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raventhief: Situation. An acquaintance offers me $20 to write an essay on the topic of (eg) Shakesperian sonnets. I am not told that the person has an assignment that matches the topic, and I ask no questions. I do the essay, get my silver, and go home. My acquaintance now turns in the essay with his name on it and gets a grade. Clearly the acquaintance has done something wrong, but have I? Now change it. I know of the existance of the assignment, but I don't know he intends to turn in my work as his own. Now am I in the wrong? Where does culpability begin?
If you were to truly be ignorant of the assignment, then you certainly wouldn't be morally culpable. But you'd have to be extremely naive (or stupid) to write an essay for a kid about sonnets and not think something was up. Willful ignorance (as in purposefully avoiding asking what the essay was for) does not absolve you.
I'd say the same applies to your second scenario. Assuming the kid doesn't plan to (or end up) passing your work as his, and turns in an original assignment, then I don't think there's actually anything wrong with that. It's like doing research. Though I have no idea why someone would want to pay for that instead of just going to the library.
quote:As engineering students, I and my fellows were strongly encouraged to work together. I do not consider this plagiarism, because it was not a case of one person does an assignment, then someone else copies the work. We did the work together, side-by-side, all of us contributing and checking each other's work. To my mind this is akin to discussing ideas in an essay and proofreading, rather than having someone else do an essay in one's place.
There's nothing wrong with working together on an assignment as long as the teacher hasn't forbidden it. That's a far cry from copying answers or paying someone to do the work for you.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
When I tutored in Algebra, my job was basically to watch my students do the problems, show them where they were going wrong, figure out why they were going wrong, and explain it to them in a way that made it possible for them to do it right. I didn't "give answers and do it backwards"; I watched them step-by-step and pointed out things they weren't noticing, gave them reminders, or asked them questions that provoked a double-check, so they got the right answers on their own-- at least, they were doing the work, and eventually were able to do it themselves.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kitsune:
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Well, it does seem that your sin in this case os a sin of omission. But copying other people's math solutions is indeed disgusting.
Define disgusting. Is it, pick-your-nose-in-public disgusting? Or is it, farting-during-an-english-final disgusting?
Relax, sir. I'm sorry if I disgust you, but I don't like being called "disgusting".
It is stealing-the-work-of-others disgusting. And if you do not like the label 'thief', why, you could avoid stealing.
Posted by Kitsune (Member # 8290) on :
Stealing is taking something without permission. I do not steal. So don't call me a thief.
I suppose you like being labeled a jerk, huh?
Posted by Irregardless (Member # 8529) on :
I guess it could be argued that an author has a fairly absolute right to 1.) charge money for his work, and 2.) voluntarily waive copyright for his customer(s).
Posted by smitty (Member # 8855) on :
I dunno, people used to copy from my homework all the time. I suppose I should feel sorry. But I really didn't care. Nor did I care if they recieved a high grade for the work. Nor did I care (much, unless I liked them) that it hurt them academically later in life. Nor do I care that some employer might have hired a person thinking they were a competent engineer. I think of acedemics like golf - I'm only playing against myself. The ones that were interested, I did tutor.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
Except for the fact where it's getting graded, and the person receiving the work is passing off someone else's work as his or her own, thereby getting a grade that he or she did not earn in any way.
This is why I fail people on assignments if they've obviously cheated. There are cheating policies for a reason--cheating reduces the effectiveness of education and produces ignorant students. If you cheat, you harm yourself and, in the long run, your institution of education ("Wow, so-and-so is from Random College; can you believe how little he knows?"). If you facilitate cheating, you're just as bad.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:I think of acedemics like golf - I'm only playing against myself.
Unless your grades are curved, in which case it definitely hurts you to help anyone in your class.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Being a jerk is subjective; just calling someone that doesn't make it so.
If you steal, then you're a thief. It's a little more cut and dried. Although I don't think what you did was stealing, and KoM's accusation shows me that he didn't bother to read your explanation of what happened. Or his comprehension has seriously dipped in the last few weeks.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
I was not referring to the TA doing the problems, which indeed seems not quite deliberate (a sin of omission, as I said) but rather to this :
quote:I copy math homework all the time though.. 'cause math homework is cruel and unusual punishment!
And I do think that this is theft : Certainly, you had permission to take the actual answers, but you also diminished the credit people get for getting the answers right, and I doubt your sources thought that one over sufficiently to grant you such permission. And even if they did, it is often quite difficult to refuse permission to a friend; it is not clear that they were glad to share.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
They don't need to be glad to share; if someone offers you something and you take it that's not theft. Unless they're offering under duress, but I'm not gonna buy that her friends were guilted into letting her copy.
Trust me when I say that to see large groups of kids frantically copying each others' homework 15 minutes before school starts is a common sight. It's sad but true.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Ok, I'm a little confused. Am I cheating when I check the answers I get against the back of the book? How about when I go back and figure out what I did wrong and change them accordingly (keeping in mind that I always figure out what I did wrong first)? How about when I don't get a problem and ask my boyfriend to show me how?
I guess I don't really view the goal of math homework as to get a good grade. We are graded on the homework, but it's such a negligable portion of our overall grade that I'm not worried about it. I view math homework as a way for me to learn, and I'm going to pursue that in whatever way works best for me. Maybe working a problem backwards isn't the same as working it forward, but if afterwards I can work other problems of the same nature forward, then I think I've accomplished the goal of the homework.
Posted by Miro (Member # 1178) on :
I would view it as depending on assumptions and local standards. If the teacher assigns problems that have answers in the back of the book, then presumably they're aware of this and did it on purpose. On the other hand, if you buy a teacher's edition of the textbook and use it to check the answers for problems not in the back of the book, I would consider that dishonest.
As for getting help, my view is that as long as the teacher hasn't told you to work alone, there's nothing wrong with it. (Assuming the person is helping you do the work, not dictating the answers.)
I do some of my engineering problems with a friend in the same class. Generally, we try the problems on our own and check our answers in the back of the book (if they're given). If one of us gets it, she helps the other figure out what she did wrong. If neither of us get it, we try different strategies until it works (or we go to office hours). I find myself working better and learning more because doing the problems with someone makes it harder to just slack off, and having another brain helps prevent frustration when I run into a particularly tough problem. As far as I am concerned, this is perfectly legit.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
"Good point, ElJay.
I should have said his posting them makes sense now. Not the content."
Question Mark. Confused. I do not see the conenction between seeing intellectual material and my political views on the social, economic, and military SitRep of Zhongguo.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Blayne, it's just that the ethical framework under which you operate, as revealed by "'in for a penny and in for a pound' alot of stuff I do is technically 'unethical,'" makes it a lot easier to understand why you support the PRC so strongly.
Posted by smitty (Member # 8855) on :
I like to think of it as contributing to the graduation rate at my school.
I honestly know I should feel bad. Just not working.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
You have to not let them bully you into doing the work, because some of them definitely will try.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
I feel slightly offended now ![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Laugh]](graemlins/laugh.gif)
![[No No]](graemlins/nono.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)