This headed by the same Miller who I read supported the DE-regulation of public schools in Bush's own Texas.
I would like to know what exactly a standardized test would be able to say about university students who need not take a single class in common with eachother.
I must also add that, as I;m sure is a common experience, my educational experiences centered around standardized tests: ie, a.p. tests, Sat IIs, etc, were often less rewarding because of the burden of the training I was forced to take in "test taking." Its now old-hat to decry standardized tests for their tendency to turn us all into robots with the ability to give the answers we know are wanted, rather than be creative; yet its still an important point. Posted by Celaeno (Member # 8562) on :
I think universities can regulate themselves. After all, it's in a university's best interest to provide a good education to its students. A good university will turn out top professionals and this will increase the university's credibility. With increased credibility comes more applicants, and a larger applicant pool means more selectivity. It's a convenient cycle.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
There already are various standardized tests that can be used to see how well universities prepare students: the GRE, LSAT, MCAT, etc. Why would we need more?
Posted by Raventhief (Member # 9002) on :
All those tests are post-collegiate. I think the intent is to test during college like the american high school mathematics exam and those stupid tests we took in elementary school.
There is not a word in the english language for how much I disagree with this idea.
Posted by SenojRetep (Member # 8614) on :
From the article, their source for the univeristies' viewpoint , the President of Bard College, says:
quote:To subject colleges to uniform standards is to trivialize what goes on in higher education...Excellence comes in many unusual ways. You cannot apply the rules of high-stakes testing in high schools to universities
I don't like the idea of standardized tests; I feel that they're a poor format for judging learning (I'd prefer intercollegiate academic deathmatches). However statements like this just add to the perception of impracticality of colleges. I think this quote is the best argument for standardized tests in the entire article.
Posted by Stasia (Member # 9122) on :
The article seems to indicate that they want to institute a test for comparative purposes (to measure the amount of "learning" and for accountability to parents and taxpayers).
This presents three major problems, in my mind.
First, students go to college for such a wide variety of majors and for a wide variety of reasons (to qualify for jobs, fun, parents made them, lack other plans, friends are doing it, etc) that it would be pointless to say a university was failing if on average the students didn't get X score on a standardized test.
Second, in order to not have a bad score on record for the school, each college will have to link the outcome of this test to whether or not a student can graduate if they want students to take the test seriously. Otherwise, there will be students who purposely fail the test or those who don't try very hard. I think that at the college level, creating a national curriculum doesn't take into account the vast array of differences in fields of study and reasons why people pursue higher education.
Third, standardized tests in college (and probably in high school too) are a waste of time and money. How difficult could this proposed test be? Probably, a standardized college test could only feasibly test college algebra and first semester composition since those are the only two classes that EVERYBODY has to take.
I think it would be a waste of taxpayer money to do this. They want to spend a zillion dollars to have meetings about this test, create this test, implement this test, fix bugs in the test through more meetings, grade the test, and compile the scores on a yearly basis. The end result is something the universities are already doing--making sure their reputations are upheld so more students want to go there.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raventhief: All those tests are post-collegiate. I think the intent is to test during college like the american high school mathematics exam and those stupid tests we took in elementary school.
There is not a word in the english language for how much I disagree with this idea.
Well then, that's a perfect opportunity to apply those creative skills you learned in college and invent one! How about "martyrically", indicating that you are willing to strap explosives to your body and blow up random buses in opposition to the idea? Or "guerrillaishly", if you prefer to take to the woods with your trusty rifle and take potshots at passing US troopers. Failing that, how about "demonstratingly", which is to say, you will organise marches and angry demonstrations. Or - I mention it merely as a possibility, since clearly you are much more angry than this - "postingly", that is, you will make angry posts on intrawebnet forums. But obviously that's not heavy enough.
Posted by Raventhief (Member # 9002) on :
Hmm. I didn't do much creative work in college, but how about "hyenishly" indicating my intent to gather a group of similarly minded people and laugh and point maniacally until the politicians realize their mistake? Let's toss in "contemdainishly" to represent the combined contempt and disdain I have for the idea and "nowayinhellishly" indicating how shocked I am that anyone would consider this a good idea.
I don't know if I'm angry. I'm definitely surprised and I disagree with the idea, but it's not worth getting angry over.
On a side note, I work for Kaplan, a standardized test prep company and all of us who work there have a really low opinion of the usefulness of standardized testing.
Posted by SenojRetep (Member # 8614) on :
quote:Originally posted by Raventhief: On a side note, I work for Kaplan, a standardized test prep company and all of us who work there have a really low opinion of the usefulness of standardized testing.
From the article:
quote:Jonathan Grayer, another commissioner, who is chief executive of the test-coaching company Kaplan Inc., said that with so many students in college and so many tax dollars being spent, "it is important for us to seek some type of knowledge about how much learning is going on."
I know he's not specifically calling for standardized testing, but he was on the commission and he is calling for a relative metric of "learning." Maybe his statement is purely self-serving (more standardized tests = more income for Kaplan). I just thought it was funny in conjunction with your statement, RT.
Posted by Kasie H (Member # 2120) on :
I think that this has serious ramifications way beyond just standardized testing. Think of the generally laudable goal of increasing the number of college degrees -- especially college degrees from prestigious universities -- awarded to students who are economically disadvantaged and/or to minorities.
On standardized tests, these students statistically perform at a level lower than their more advantaged peers.
If standardized testing was required and then made public -- affecting colleges' rankings -- these schools would no longer have the incentive to take a risk on a student they fear might not perform on a standardized test. As things stand right now, high school standardized testing is used in the calculation of school rankings. I received a scholarship, for example, only because I was a National Merit Finalist -- I made the number of such students at my university go up by one more. This helps my school's ranking.
Right now, performance on standardized tests acts as an incentive for colleges to attract people with high scores. But at this point, those scores are already known to the colleges.
If we implement standardized testing at universities, you'll see a serious change in admissions policies. Instead of having an incentive to admit me because my achievements have already distinguished me, they will have a disincentive to admit people from groups they fear will perform poorly in the future. This sword has two edges on one side: it will make high school standardized testing (as said above, an area in which economically disadvantaged kids do more poorly on than well-off peers) more important in the admissions process because it will be used as an indicator for future progress, AND schools will use the simple fact that economically disadvantaged kids perform poorly and cut back on recruitment programs and incentives for those kids.
Posted by prolixshore (Member # 4496) on :
That's ridiculous for all the reasons posted above.
If you tested me in mathematics, I'm sure I would fall behind people since I've never taken calculus. However, my knowledge of law and government would be difficult to ascertain on a test designed to test ALL college students. You would have to create a different test for every possible major. Otherwise, you cannot compare what a graphic design student is learning vs what a history student is learning. If you test math and english, what does that tell you about the relative merits of a criminal justice student vs a social work student? Ridiculous, I say!
--ApostleRadio
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I think this is an astonishingly bad idea.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stasia:
Third, standardized tests in college (and probably in high school too) are a waste of time and money. How difficult could this proposed test be? Probably, a standardized college test could only feasibly test college algebra and first semester composition since those are the only two classes that EVERYBODY has to take.
Actually this is already the case/ at least for the state of California, these both are covered if you have ALREADY passed a standardized test. For example the SAT covers algebra and the SAT II covers either stats or Trig, and the AP covers composition. If you don't take the AP or the SAT II composition and lit, then you DO have to take the English competency test for the University of California. Difference is this is an entrance requirement, and if you don't pass, the courses are required until you can pass the SAME test as the entering students. So it does NOT test the education you recieve IN college.
Algebra and composition are thus not required courses at the UC, only entrance requirements.
Posted by Stasia (Member # 9122) on :
Orincoro,
My example was probably a little simplistic because I was just casting about for the absolute minimum requirements that everybody in college is required to take (in all states for all majors). Not everybody has to take calculus, psychology, literature, advanced composition, chemistry, biology, physics, Latin, or anthropology so this proposed nationwide standardized test couldn't test these things.
You're definitely right that algebra and basic composition are already requirements to get into just about every university (through SAT scores and highschool coursework). However, this never seemed to stop the universities from requiring these things as part of the general education requirements.
Most colleges have a basic composition requirement beyond what is required to get into the school. The student has to either take a basic composition course or test to some level to get of it. This was true even for my friends at the UCs--although admittedly it was awhile ago--things may have changed. My English major friends were only required to take college algebra as their math general education requirement (even though they had to have taken up to pre-calc in high school and get good SAT scores to get into college).
That's my problem with standardized tests. They have to be so broadly applicable that they end up testing skills that are WAY below the stated level.
Look at the GRE (the standardized test you have to take when applying for graduate school), for example. It only tests vocabulary, english comprehension, basic composition, and math up to algebra/trig. These are things most of us learned in high school and yet you cannot get into graduate school without the GRE since it is supposed to measure what you learned in college.
It seems like a waste of money (except for the people who write the tests, administer the tests, or teach test prep classes).
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
Uh, not to play devil's advocate but... don't we already have this?
I'm pre-med. I get to look forward to the MCAT in about two years. And be grateful I am, because the test provides some way for medical schools to discern between the values of a 4.0 pre-med of Bob Jones University and a 3.5 of Columbia -- and a way to decide which of the two students will end up inside your body armed with very sharp instruments and their wits.
I can see why some would protest the use of standardized testing on liberal arts, but for the likes of medicine, engineering, mathematics, I fully support testing. Debate can be raised over whether tests should be multiple choice or have a time limit, but over their very existence? I can't see it.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
The MCAT is a post collegiate test, and it serves as an assesment for ADMITTANCE to medical school, hence it is more like an entrance exam, and functions to test the prospective student rather than the current student. Like the SAT, the MCAT is determinent not of the value of your degree, but of your prospects for studying with any given school.
Stasia, as it stands today, there is no math requirement at the UC past that which is required to graduate highschool, ie: algebra 2/Trig. I was interested in music performance in High school, and abandoned math after advanced algebra 2/trig in junior year. I never took precalc, and was still admitted to UC Davis, where there is no higher math requirement. There are however, sci/engineering requirements which CAN be covered by statistics/calc courses and the like.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
As I've said before, I never had any of these evaluation get X grade to graduate tests in high school. I went to a private K-12 prep school. I took the ACT in seventh grade, the PSAT, and the SAT. Soon, I will be taking the GMAT.
I'm perfectly fine with that. I'd be extremely pissed if someone tried to change it. In fact, it seems like an absolutely ridiculous notion.
-pH
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by Celaeno: After all, it's in a university's best interest to provide a good education to its students.
Or to have a really good football team.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
As for requirements for all majors:
I go to a Jesuit university. I had to take two literature classes, two history classes, three philosophy classes, three religion classes, and I believe one science, one math, and one art/music/drama. Maybe some other things. I'm not sure. I somehow ended up with five philosophy courses because of my major and three math courses on top of the calculus credit I already had.
-pH
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I'm mad. I went to all the trouble to look up and post the common curriculum requirements for my Jesuit university, and Hatrack ate them.
-pH
Edit: Nevermind. Die, school computer.
Posted by HollowEarth (Member # 2586) on :
I guess the part I don't understand is why accreditation doesn't handle this.
Yes, diploma mills create fake organizations to accredit them, but that doesn't mean that the system doesn't work, only that the organization doing the acceditation needs to be a independent organization with a transparent process.
Frankly I'm not really sure what the GRE actually means. Just about everyone here did well on the math section. The verbal section seems to be significantly more difficult. (My verbal score was 100 pts lower than the math, but was 9 percentage points higher in the percentile than the math.) MIT claims the verbal score is a better measure of possible sucess in graduate school than the total score, but I haven't seen any results that bear this out. (The grad director in my dept claims the numbers he has show no correlation for what its worth.)
Posted by Stasia (Member # 9122) on :
Like I said, my info. on school entrance requirements is very old and probably outdated.
I went back and looked at my post. I don’t think I was as clear as I could have been which I apologize for. I wasn't trying to say that standardized tests shouldn't exist, just that they really aren't suited to measuring one college against another, given the extremely low level at which the test would have to be set to encompass every college program out there.
I know that standardized admittance tests have value. For better or worse, they are a useful tool in the admissions process. How else does a university make an unbiased decision with regard to which students to admit to a limited number of openings in a program? Of course, that doesn’t keep me from seeing this whole standardized test thing as big money maker for ETS (the people who write them) and Kaplan and the Princeton Review. But I have to admit that unless a system is devised that allows each person to be evaluated on an individual basis, standardized tests perform a useful function.
The problem I have with standardized tests is the perception that they are anything other than a tool for college admissions purposes (or placement tests in high school). They don’t really measure raw ability and for the most part, they don’t test the things that will matter later in a person’s career (don’t know if that’s the case with the MCAT, having never taken it).
Similarly, I think the only value in the MCAT score is that it allows medical schools to separate out people who they think have the capability to finish medical school from people who don’t. The MCAT score just keeps the medical school from wasting its time; the score doesn’t determine who will become a competent doctor in the future. Even the person with the highest MCAT score possible can flunk out or turn out to be an incompetent doctor if they don’t do well in medical school.
Did my SAT score measure how well I would do in college? Maybe. I knew a few people who got better scores than me that flunked out of college. I know of at least one person who got WAY less than me who is now a doctor. Does a score on a timed arithmetic and algebra test (the GRE for example) really determine what sort of scientist I will be when I finish graduate school? Not really. Is a GRE score a better measure than my grades (and letters of recommendation, and work experience, and willingness to learn) to determine that I was suited to graduate school? Debatable.
Posted by AYC (Member # 8859) on :
Why don't we just have entrance examinations for specific purposes. (i.e. if you wanna work for this company you take this company's test, if you want to do A, test for A with A's test, if you wanna do B, test for B with B's test, etc, etc, etc) I definately dislike how standardized testing 1) isn't always up to date, and 2) doesn't always test for the right things, and 3) the same works for "OMG you got a degree from Stanford?" doesn't mean that you are necessarily good at whatever specific job you aply for.
Posted by Celaeno (Member # 8562) on :
pH, I go to a Jesuit university too and for our Arts & Science school we need two composition, one writing, two math, one lab science, one non-lab science, one social science, two world culture, three western culture sequence, one United States, one techonology, one ethics, three foreign language (or the ability to pass a certain proficiency level), and three religious studies courses.
I always assumed most universities have as many core requirements, but I was apparently mistaken. Any sort of standardized testing would prove very very difficult. What could it possibly test? The only thing we'd all have in common for sure would be high school stuff.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by AYC: Why don't we just have entrance examinations for specific purposes. (i.e. if you wanna work for this company you take this company's test, if you want to do A, test for A with A's test, if you wanna do B, test for B with B's test, etc, etc, etc) I definately dislike how standardized testing 1) isn't always up to date, and 2) doesn't always test for the right things, and 3) the same works for "OMG you got a degree from Stanford?" doesn't mean that you are necessarily good at whatever specific job you aply for.
Good point.
I go to a very good university, and I know plenty of people here I would never trust mow my lawn, much less teach my future kids, perform surgery, etc.
We seem to REALLY have lost the point of higher education I think. I can't tell you how many family members have commented cynically on my studies, saying its all about having the degree, the peice of paper, the approval of the system.
"In and out in Four Years" is now a UC program for undergraduates who are dedicated to "walking" in the spring of the fourth year. The ridiculous notion many of my friends have in their heads, that your education is tied to a peice of paper and a handshake is ridiculous. Nothing wrong with finishing quickly if you want or need to, and nothing wrong with attending for longer either, but I have friends who take huge unit loads in the attempt to cram in double-major degrees in Biochem and music in 4 years; what they really end up doing is ruining the best years of their adolescence stressing and moaning about school, and not really learning much after all.
Add to this the need to study the American Art of Test Taking (AATT), and your college experience is bound to suck in a big way.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Celaeno: pH, I go to a Jesuit university too and for our Arts & Science school we need two composition, one writing, two math, one lab science, one non-lab science, one social science, two world culture, three western culture sequence, one United States, one techonology, one ethics, three foreign language (or the ability to pass a certain proficiency level), and three religious studies courses.
I always assumed most universities have as many core requirements, but I was apparently mistaken. Any sort of standardized testing would prove very very difficult. What could it possibly test? The only thing we'd all have in common for sure would be high school stuff.
Yeah, I'm sure I got some of the requirements wrong or missed a few. I've sort of just been taking eight million classes, plus I came in to school with a ton of credits to begin with. I'm in the business college.
What school do you go to?
-pH
Posted by Stasia (Member # 9122) on :
On a related note...I just found this on CNN. It looks like anybody who needs to take the GRE should hurry up and do so. The test is getting longer and more expensive in October of 2007.
I just thought I'd weigh in on this topic as a University professor.
I could probably come up with worse ideas than this, but it woud take alot of effort.
Right now, the US has the best University system in the world. If you compare the US system, to various systems in Europe, what you will find is that US students enter Universities performing at a lower level than most European students but leave 4 - 5 years later out performing their European peers. What's more is that many of the best schools in the country are public Universities not private schools.
I could simply say "If it ain't broke, don't fix it", but there is more behind my opposition to this idea. Nearly every system can be improved and I think Universities must be open to change. Before we change, however, we have to make sure that our changes don't destroy what's right about the current system. In my opinion, mandating standardized testing at the University level would destroy one of the most important strengths of US universities.
There are many reasons why the US University system works so well but one of the most importance is faculty governance which has two important consequences.
First it means that the most important decisions about what is taught in the classrooms and explored in the laboratories are made by the faculty not administrators or politicians. This means both that decisions are made based on "ground truth" not the idealized view held by people far removed from the classrooms. It also means that faculty are personally invested in the process and so have a greater commitment to making it succeed.
The second big impact of faculty governance is that it allows Universities to attract top scholars even though they can't usually offer top salaries. There are typically over 100 applicants for every position that opens at any major US university, so schools are able choose from among very best people around. Why are so many people seeking Faculty positions when they could get industry jobs that pay more for less work? There is one big reason -- faculty governance. University positions offer scholars more freedom to do what interests them and what they view as important than any other job. Without that factor, universities would not be able to hire top people.
These two factors work together. Because of faculty governance, universities are able to hire from among the best and brightest in the world. Then the universities allow these top experts in their fields to make the decissions which means that many very good choices are made. At least that is the vision and in many US Universities that vision is working very well.
Universites already have a system in place for accountability. We have accreditation boards, peer reviewers, advisory commitees, rankings, tenure reviews, and student evaluations. We also have a bottom line. If our students don't think they are benefitting from what we teach, if they can't get jobs or admission into graduate programs when they finish, we know we soon won't have students.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: I have friends who take huge unit loads in the attempt to cram in double-major degrees in Biochem and music in 4 years; what they really end up doing is ruining the best years of their adolescence stressing and moaning about school, and not really learning much after all.
What might be right for some might not be right for others. I finished a double major (psychology and English) at Emory University in three years. Later, I went back to school and earned a second bachelor's degree (this time in nursing, at Seton Hall) in just 13 months. So, all told, two degrees and three majors in four years. It was hard, but I learned quite a lot. And I do not regret my choices.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
That tells me nothing.
Yes you can DO it. But you don't know what your experience might have been like if you hadn't, it might have been better, you might have learned more.
My whole point was that that peice of paper means one thing, and what you actually did in college can be something quite different. We reward only the accutraments of success, not the actuall accomplishments involved. For instance, in those three years I guarantee you participated less in student groups, studied less for certain classes, and were more streesed and unhappy that if you had done it all in four years. This doesn't mean it would be good to do it in 10 years, but there IS a happier medium in which true success lies.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Golly, you don't know me, or what I did in college. You can't "guarantee" anything. I'm a super quick study, and I don't need much study time outside of class to "get" the material. I participated quite heavily in the student groups that I was interested in, and was even an officer in a couple of them. I was very happy, made wonderful friends, had romantic relationships, and all that. Don't you go telling me that my success isn't "true" because I was eager to get on to the next wonderful phase of my life. I consider my life to be successful, and I think that I am the only judge that matters in this.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Golly.
Of course you success is "true." Maybe your a super genius, but just because you are, doesn't prove anything about anyone else, and I never said what you did wasn't right for you, simply that it is undeniable that 3 years does not equal 4 years, even for you, no matter what you think.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Uh, I'm graduating in three years, too. And I have a very, very active social life. And I'm not terribly unhappy or stressed more than my friends who are taking four or five years to finish their degrees. In short, you're full of it.
-pH
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: it is undeniable that 3 years does not equal 4 years, even for you, no matter what you think.
Well, I never said that I majored in math. Maybe that was the stuff that I would have learned if I'd stuck around for another year.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
hehe
Since you majored in math, you can relate to my point: I know about 1 out of every 999,999 americans. And yet the second I meet someone, or hear about someone's experience, I know almost instantly what that person will (probably) be like. Like I said, we love to react to generalizations like the one I made, by saying "No! No! No! I did this and that and the other thing and I loved it!" WEll of course its possible, but its the exception that proves the rule; if your an exceptional person, your not the person I'm even talking about. Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: Like I said, we love to react to generalizations like the one I made, by saying "No! No! No! I did this and that and the other thing and I loved it!" WEll of course its possible, but its the exception that proves the rule
This "rule" being that you are always able to judge a person the second you meet him? Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Of course, Tante. Everyone knows that Orinoco has the special skills.
-pH
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Majoring in math will do that for you.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
Tante, there's a CHANCE you would have been happier taking 4 years or more to get your degree. There's also a chance that you would have been bored and miserable going so slow (for you). You're a better judge about that than me. Of course.
But I can tell you this... there's a HUGE chance that your classmates would have been a lot less resentful if you had taken longer, since many of them did, I'm sure. I know I would have been. I cried in my adviser's office when I found out a mistake meant that I had to take an extra semester!
There's also a chance that I could have made it to the gas station that's on my way to work this morning rather than going to the one in the opposite direction that's nearer my house. But I would have been unhappy if it turned out I was wrong.
All we can do is guess. Posted by Swampjedi (Member # 7374) on :
<waves at Tante>
I'm '02 Oxford, '04 Emory, '05 GSoAS. Good to see another alum around Hatrack. Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Emory Class of (gasp!) '85.
So...is it still under construction? Do they still have these weird pipes emitting steam poking out of unlikely spots around campus? Does Trimble still tremble when the Seaboard Coastline Railroad cars rumble by in the night? Do they still raise tuition every time they get another huge donation from the Woodruffs? Does Dooley still dismiss classes (but never MINE!)? Is the most common accent heard around campus still a Noo Yawk kind of thing?
Posted by Swampjedi (Member # 7374) on :
Always under construction. Now there is an entire BUILDING that emits steam. I'd assume so. Yes. Yes, and never mine either. Must be a Hatrack curse. Absolutely. My southern twang was often the butt of jokes. Strange considering Emory is in Atlanta. Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Are the students who spend WAY too much time in the library still referred to as "Woody Rats"?
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swampjedi: My southern twang was often the butt of jokes.
Yeah, but you were Oxford. Those Oxford students had more of a Georgia accent. Posted by Swampjedi (Member # 7374) on :
I must admit that I only went into Woodruff Library a handfull of times, so I have no clue.
Oxford students are slightly more likely to be from Georgia, but I'd say the demographics are very similar - overrepresented (Jewish, Asian, Indian, Female) underrepresented (White, Black, Male).
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
<-- Jimmy Carter was always coming to campus, too.
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Well, I never said that I majored in math. Maybe that was the stuff that I would have learned if I'd stuck around for another year.
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