First, I must apologize for posting this here, and not ther side of the River. I am actually very sorry. I know this isn't a very good excuse, but I thought more people might give their opinions, were it on this side. If a majority of people have a problem with this thread being on this side, I will immediately delete it and put it on the other side.
I have found problems with this, and thought that only OSC could answer it; as if you consider, there are some problems with how far the Bugger's are, and technologies they posses.
The distance. There is a huge problem right there. The Bugger system, what? 35-40 light years away? The Buggers, basicly use all of their contact, through Philotic waves; or basicly, radio waves. So, we'll say they are about about 40 light years away from us, and we have been sending out radio waves since about 1955, and we'll say they invaded in 2045. It's off, I know.
Why did we never make contact, via radio waves, or another ship they sent? Surely, the Buggers, must have sensed MASSIVE amounts of radio waves coming from Earth, and understood them. For 40 years, they recieved our radio signals. They started recieviing signals from 1955, in 1995. So, why didn't they come to us sooner, or try to communicate with us sooner? Did they know we were here when they started to colonize?
Surely, being capable of light travel for at least 100 years before we met them, they had space flight for at least 200 years. So, that leavs 300 years where they were capable of space flight, to come to us. Why didn't they colonize earlier? Why didn't they come to Earth earlier, and try take over sooner? There are a multitude of other problems that I have.
Oh, and. if any of this is answered in the last 100 pages of Xenocide, or any of the other books, don't give any answers that would give anything away. Even the smallest things.
[ February 17, 2006, 01:23 AM: Message edited by: Reticulum ]
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
Mind talking to me on IM?
Posted by Princess Leah (Member # 6026) on :
quote:Philotic waves; or basicly, radio waves.
Except not.
Posted by Princess Leah (Member # 6026) on :
Single-minded much, Advent? Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Why is this a mayfly? I see no reason this should be a mayfly.
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
Well, you are right Leah. But, I am sure if they can understand philotic waves, they can understand radio waves. Don't you think?
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
Why 35-40 light years away? Is this in one of the books?
As for the rest of the questions, I don't really see why any of those would be problems to the story.
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
Why didn't they try to contact us earlier? That was a guess, based on the fact that it took the fleet about 40 years to get to the bugger homeworld from earth.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Well, you are right Leah. But, I am sure if they can understand philotic waves, they can understand radio waves.
No. The formics communicate mind to mind, no need for radio wave communication.
Somewhere in EG someone makes a big point of explaining how the absolute inability to communicate made the conflic inevitable.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Posted by Princess Leah (Member # 6026) on :
Quotes from Ender's Game:
"Everybody always said that they probably only found out they lost the battle [of the second invasion] twenty-five years ago"
"'We used every means we could think of to communicate with them, but they don't even have the machinery to know we're singmaling. And maybe they've been trying to think to us, and they can't understand why we don't respond'"
Both those quotes from the end bit of chapter 13 when Ender is on the ship talking with Graff.
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
Please specify in what part of what book it says they cannot understand radio waves, as I would like to know. i don't think it ever does.
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
Well, I retract that statement, you are right. Thank you.
Posted by Friday (Member # 8998) on :
(I don't know if a spoiler warning is really necesary, but there could conceivably be someone here who hasn't read the books. If you are such a person, proceed with caution)
I don't think we know that they understand philotic waves, all we do know is that they just incidentaly evolved a way to use them. There is no evidence of the Formics being able to manipulate the waves in any way other than their biological abilities (it was humans that invented the ansible).
It is entirely posible that they had no idea that radio waves coult be used for comunication; I think Col. Graff says something to that affect when he is explaining the history of Eros to Ender. If I recal correctly he says something about there being cameras on a ship that was sent to investigate Eros after ther Buggers blacked it out. The Buggers didn't bother to disable the cameras when they captured and disassembled the ship, suggesting that they were not aware that it was posible to comunicate in any way but by thought (philoticaly).
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Reticulum, I think you have the communication issue all wrong. Philotic connection IS NOT the same as radio waves. Humans had no way of detecting philotic communication, and Buggers had no way of detecting radio waves (why would they, when they communicate mind-to-mind instantaneously across any distance?). That's the whole reason why humans mistook them for "varelse". Even standing side-by-side, a human and a bugger coudn't detect each other's forms of communication. It's like a deaf mute trying to communicate with a blind guy.
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
Wait, doesn't it say inXenocide that they only tried to communicate with Ender?
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
Well, why wouldn't they be able to understand radio waves?
Posted by Princess Leah (Member # 6026) on :
Why would they?
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
Why WOULDN'T they, is the question posed first. So, once you answer my question, I will answer yours about an hour later, because I have to get off my compluter.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
quote:Well, why wouldn't they be able to understand radio waves?
Even human beings can't do this naturally. We developed technology to interpret them because it was an easy way to transmit information more or less instantaneously across spaces too big for our ordinary means of communication (e.g. speech).
The buggers all have a natural form of communication that trumps radio wave communication - why would they ever have developed radio-wave communication, or any device that can properly interpret it?
Edited for clarity and grammar.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
They can't understand them because they have no way to receive them. They don't understand external communication because they don't have any form of it.
Posted by Princess Leah (Member # 6026) on :
Because they're not equipped with technology or organs to *receive* radio transmissions.
They are basically not a "they" at all, but more of a "her"-- the Hive Queen. All the workers are part of her. There was no need for them to develop a means of communication other than the one they had, which is far superior to radio in any event. And that one is organic.
They'd have no reason to design or build a radio, and no way to know that having one might be useful. You can't miss something you have never known about.
I guess the other possibility is that they'd have some organic way of understanding radio waves. That's the possibility to which I responded with my question. Why would they have that as well as the ability to communicate philotically? I mean, they're fictional; they *could*, but that story would be pretty boring.
(edited to add a semicolon that may or may not be correct, but which I think is more correct than the original comma. Perhaps. )
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Them developing a radio would be like you trying to place a cellphone call to your ankle.
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
Good point, I suppose you guys are right.
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
Hello Reticulum, still there? (IM).
I am not so sure we will ever find a race like the buggers but I would be facinated to learn if we humans could ever speak to one another the way they do.
Posted by cheiros do ender (Member # 8849) on :
quote:Hello Reticulum, still there? (IM).
Whoo that's clever!
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
cheiros, how do you pronounce your name?
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
I always pronounce it as "chair-o's)
Posted by cheiros do ender (Member # 8849) on :
First part is like chair but say the "ai" softer. The "os" should be said like the "os" in ghost. I suggest you find some brasilian-portuguese music if it really matters to you.
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
I was pronouncing it right then!!!
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Somewhere there's a hive queen asking, "but why wouldn't the humans be able to comunicate philoticly?"
Posted by clod (Member # 9084) on :
what's a mayfly?
not the bug, but the reference.
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reticulum: I always pronounce it as "chair-o's)
Dang, I was pronouncing it like cheer-ee-oo-s (cereal)
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
Because the human mind is too complicated and blocks them from talking to us.
Posted by Advent 115 (Member # 8914) on :
But in xenocide we saw examples of how humans can share each others thoughts when united through anger or other strong emotion.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Wasn't there a bit in one of the Shadow books where one of the fleet people...it wasn't Graff, I don't think... gives a hint that they did figure out that the Buggers were sending messages of truce a little bit before the fleet hit the home planet, but they decided to go ahead anyway? I remember it being really quick and easy to miss, but I'm pretty sure it was in there. Something about disturbances in the ansible on Eros, I think it was.
Posted by akhockey (Member # 8394) on :
I kind of think you're right, but at the same time I don't. I thought that after the buggers deal on Eros, the queen realized that humans were all individuals and realized also that they would destroy the bugger homeworld. Then, rather than try to fight/communicate she spent all the remaining time communicating with Ender though the fantasy game and setting up the planet with the only unborn queen, so Ender would recognize it and save their species?
![[Smile]](smile.gif)