I was irritated and whining to a group of friends about a poster.
I wrote:
quote:I can't accept the idea that he is 18. Most late teen kids who complain about the type of childhood that he claims, are mature, savy and angry. He's got the anger thing down, but lacks the rest.
Also, his moods swing so wildly that he seems to be playing an RPG. I am left with the impression that he's either a 12 year old or a poser.
Wahh, if there is going to be discord, I prefer it be about substance. At least then I can learn something.
I wrote this in response to the threads that he started with real or feigned ire, then quickly broke into jokes and giggles. I also resent that so many of his posts seem designed to manufacture emotion on the part of the other members of the forum.
I don't apologize for the impression that I took from his actions, but I do apologize for not being invested enough in him to bring them to his attention rather than whining about them behind his back.
The people I'm speaking of obviously have the time and intelligence to be a valuable asset wherever they choose to spend time, I just wish that they respected the rest of us enough to gift us with a bit more decorum and attention to their written thoughts.
I realize that respect begets respect. So I'll make a pact. If I can't extend to you the type of respect that I am requesting, then I'll avoid reading or responding to your posts/threads so as not to tempt myself into bad behavior.
editted to make post and title more in line with forum standards.
[ February 22, 2006, 12:09 AM: Message edited by: LadyDove ]
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
I don't mind him so much. Except it irritates me that just about every thread he starts is him whining about a video game.
Blayne, if you are reading this, you need to make an official video game thread instead of wasting room on Hatrack, darn it. *waves fist*
Posted by airmanfour (Member # 6111) on :
Thanks LadyDove, you expressed what I feel, but with class.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Whining about video games, or whining about how someone is 'misrepresenting' China. The happiest place on Earth.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
I understand that you are trying to come clean and make amends. However, in this case I think that what someone doesn't know doesn't hurt them. If I heard that someone was laughing at me behind my back, that would just hurt me more. Making the promise to yourself sounds wiser than sharing it. If you read this before Blayne does, you might want to consider deleting this.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
I would respectfully ask that you leave Blayne out of this. I agree that a call for more respectable and mature behaviour is in order. But to single out one person is classless and I see it as more detrimental to the health of the forum than 10 video game threads.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I think the only reason Blayne was singled out is LD is quoting something, and it applies more to him.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
Amanecer and Dr Strangelove,
I appreciate your concern and admire your motives, but regarding this, clarity is very important to me. If Papa feels otherwise, or if Blayne would like me to remove his name, then I will definitely do so.
edit to add: Exactly, Breyer. Thank you.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I love it when I know what people mean.
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
quote:Thanks LadyDove, you expressed what I feel, but with class.
Apologizing for saying something bad about someone behind their back but then refusing to apologize for the bad thing said is not what I'd consider class. Neither is suggesting that 'if I can't respect you, I just won't talk to you.'
I believe Respect is something you choose to give. It is not correct to say you can't respect someone. You have chosen not to - and could choose otherwise.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Lemme reread it a couple of times, its not making sense to me. My mind is tired and hurts a little when the tonne of bricks fell.
Also the radioactive poisoning doesn't help matters lol.
Ow.
Okay A) What do you mean about an RPG? I didn't get it when i read it in sake river.
B) Mood swings? I'm slightly confused I have bad memory please elaborate (or if you'ld prefer just email me that part).
Okay, I've finally coprehended the posts I do not mind and apology accept and I hope you'll accept mine for when I was being slightly bitchy when i replied "Oh and apparently I have mood swings" in sake.
But ya I'm still in overall confused. Please elaborate exactly WHAT I did wrong in Hatrack via gmail. blayne.bradley@youknowtherest.com (making a joke, a joke)
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
Hatrack seems like it's having some...drama (for lack of a better word) lately. Lots of threads whining about other members or picking fights with other members. It's getting kind of annoying. I don't come to Hatrack to see fights and drama.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
ROFL, omg, *cries in laughter* DRAMA? lol!
You should see the stirr I caused in sake. Its like I detonated an atomic bomb.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Don't flatter yourself. You created a brief flurry of ripples in a pond.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
ooo... The Hatrack lynch mob is forming again. Frankly, lynch mobs annoy the **** outta me.
I may or may not agree with Blayne on any given point, but what he has to say is usually interesting. And nearly always lead to an interesting discussion, which is all ya can ask of a thread. Lynch mobs are boringly predictable.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Comparred to what I have seen in my 3+ years cruising forums I'm afraid that I'm the edge of my seat I've never seen this happen before.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
See Blayne! You are interesting! There's a consensus.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Sweet. I'm ALWAYS interesting in RL, I do the "risky" buisness slide, cuz my shoes have no friction.
So I run, I slide across and open door and people are always like "every time Blayne walks in the room something interesting always happens."
I brought in a cute packers shirt that fits on a water bottle and I took a Buffalo Bill shirt and did the same thing and had a DBZ match between the 2 bottles.
The room placed bets Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by aspectre: ooo... The Hatrack lynch mob is forming again. Frankly, lynch mobs annoy the **** outta me.
I may or may not agree with Blayne on any given point, but what he has to say is usually interesting. And nearly always lead to an interesting discussion, which is all ya can ask of a thread. Lynch mobs are boringly predictable.
Lynch mobs are fun! Peasants and pitchforks, torch wielding farmers!
"Then they turned on the floodlights and it was all jackboots and smoochheil smoochheil!"
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
As long as your not the one being lynched. Mobs are brutal.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
quote:I believe Respect is something you choose to give.
Tres, that is true in a vacuum of information, but after it is lost, it must be earned.
Secondly, I wasn't looking for absolution. I was trying for understanding and clarification.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
Blayne,
An RPG is a Role Playing Game. One assumes the guise of a character and imbues the character with certain powers and personality traits.
editted to change "you" to "one".
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
I'm still hyper-torqued that they managed to hurt/anger bonduca into leaving. And that was over three years ago. Since then, they've managed to chase off several other interesting contributors. And lynchings for absurdly trivial reasons are a nearly automatic response to youngsters such as want to write and peekaboo. Heck, they darn near chased off ClaudiaTherese and Tatiana as well, who are as about as conversationally polite as one could get.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Gaal, stick around longer, you'll see it again.
Eventually it becomes a part of the overall cycle that is Hatrack River. It's kinda reassuring, really.
And don't worry Blayne, you aren't the first, nor will you be the last that gets all of this "attention". What will make it interesting is how you respond, Blayne. I'm hoping in the positive, not just for Hatrack, but for yourself (which usually ends up pretty close to the same thing).
-Bok
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
** Eyes aspectre menacingly **
And if you aren't careful, we'll run you off too!
** Cackles **
-Bok
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
quote:Gaal, stick around longer, you'll see it again.
Eventually it becomes a part of the overall cycle that is Hatrack River. It's kinda reassuring, really.
Exactly. And quite frankly, whatever's going on now isn't nearly so interesting as what has gone on in the past. (I suppose this is where I mention that I haven't been paying attention to this latest batch, eh? )
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
want to write wasn't chased off, he was told he was an ass and then chose to leave...then came back and I believe got himself banned.
There is nothing wrong with saying "I don't like what you say, and how you say it, so I am going to avoid your threads unless you change." Sometimes it is better than continuing on as things have been.
Not that I think Blayne is/was as bad as W2W, even if he is a little overeagar at times.
I just take a pass on most of his threads...they just don't interest me, but when I do incounter a topic where he is involved then I comment as I wish. Sometimes a agree, sometimes I don't.
There HAS been a lot of drama lately, but this too shall pass, one way or another. Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: this too shall pass
I really love that line. For some reason it just really works for me. Such a great mantra.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
"And if you aren't careful, we'll run you off too! "
Seriously, I'd MUCH prefer that the stones be tossed in my direction.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote: Ow.
Okay A) What do you mean about an RPG? I didn't get it when i read it in sake river.
Ah, I didn't realize that Blayne had already heard what you had quoted. But if I'm reading this right, he had. This thread now seems far more appropriate. I retract my comment and I'm sorry for getting involved in something when I didn't know the details.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dr Strangelove:
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: this too shall pass
I really love that line. For some reason it just really works for me. Such a great mantra.
It must be particularly comfortable to anyone who's had kidney stones.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
** Looks around frantically **
How about donuts?
*shrugs*
-Bok
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee:
quote:Originally posted by Dr Strangelove:
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: this too shall pass
I really love that line. For some reason it just really works for me. Such a great mantra.
It must be particularly comfortable to anyone who's had kidney stones.
Thank you Dag, now I can go to bed smiling.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
The only problem, as I see it, is that the circle is really more of a spiral.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Like a ham, Tom?
-Bok
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Like a great sucking vortex.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
When I was four, I had a dream where the devil came to me and gave me an ultimatum -- I had to either wash my hands with soap (which I hated) or proceed directly to hell.
I choose hell.
While I was circling down a vortex into the depths I trie calling out thar I changed my mind, but it was too late.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Of ham, Dagonee?
-Bok
--- Speaking of vortexes, I saw The Black Hole last week. It was pretty creepy for a Disney film... And ripe for MST3K treatment.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Thinking of the wrong person, Kwea. want to write was guilty of posting such things as "my teacher says that war is bad" and "my sister doesn't like george bush"
At which point, the lynch mob would start criticizing grammar, spelling, capitalization, etc, then generally devolve into namecalling. With almost nary a hint of addressing what s/he said.
If want to write was ever rude, I never saw it on this side of the forums. If it occurred over on the other side, it would have been well after s/he was called twenty different kinds of idiot, over and over again, so I'd understand why s/he would have wanted to retaliate.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Egad, aspectre, you really AREN'T a good judge of character, are you?
People were cold to want 2 write because w2w was a lying troll. I'm rather surprised that this was not obvious to you.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I also think we should leave Blayne out of it. I understand why his name was used, and I certainly can't disagree. But the larger topics is disrepectful noobs, and I'm not sure Blayne qualifies.
He's not a noob, for one*. He's been here for almost a year under one SN or another. And although he recently displayed some annoyingly noob-like qualitites I don't think he's the worst offender. There have been several people recently who have shown a continuing refusal to conform, to listen, or to think before posting. Some of the problem is poor spelling and grammar, but ultimately it's about much more than that. We've formed a community here, and, for the most part, we enforce our own standards. Things are done a certain way, and everyone tries to stay within those unwritten guidelines. Not because there's some punishment for straying, but because it's the nice thing to do. King of Men, as objectional as I know a lot of you find him, conforms to our standards of polite and reasonable discourse for the most part. Sometimes the definitions of polite and reasonable get a bit stretched, but mutual respect keeps the number and frequency of our flame wars down.
This is a big reason why, IMO, people keep coming back here. Because they know they can count on people being friendly, educated, and interesting. That's a rare trifecta, especially online, and when new people show up and want the way the want to do things to be the way everyone does them, well, that just doesn't fly. You don't move to Lithuania and demand everyone start speaking English and playing Football. It's their culture, and if you're smart you'll take the time to learn how they do things before you jump in with both feet. And I think that's all that people here ask, as well.
* I realize that everyone's a noob to someone. Somebody's been here so long they think of TomD as "the new guy". But a year and over a thousand posts is safely out of newbie territory as far as I'm concerned.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
Want to write lied constantly.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
Granted, JT. And at this point, I've already connected with Blayne, so I'll delete his name.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
This is not the first thread this week started in order to call someone out for bad behavior. I'm not entirely comfortable with (what I sincerely hope will not become) the trend. Yeah, we have some immature members on the forum. The forum, however, is meant to be welcoming and safe for teenagers. That's why bad language and the like are discouraged. You can not blame the teenagers for being immature; you can hope that they'll grow out of it.
Perhaps a good response to bad behavior is to ignore it (or just to email the poster a ). I'm betting that if the provocative behavior garners no attention, it will quickly fade. Keeping those threads going on the front page with multiple pages of fury and debate is really just encouraging the poster. Ignored threads quickly sink out of sight.
I am uncomfortable with Hatrack jumping all over Blayne. Lighthearted teasing -- well, that's a specialty of mine. But I wouldn't want to see anyone humiliated, or for us to adopt the culture of bullying those goofy outsider kids.
Cause, honestly, how many mature Hatrackers were once goofy outsider kids?
<I'm raising my hand>
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:I am uncomfortable with Hatrack jumping all over Blayne. Lighthearted teasing -- well, that's a specialty of mine. But I wouldn't want to see anyone humiliated, or for us to adopt the culture of bullying those goofy outsider kids.
Ditto. Though, it's funny, I don't hesitate personally attacking Blayne, but I didn't want him to leave, I want him to change. He isn't obnoxious as much as he is deeply, deeply wrong.
I'll also say that Ladydove is one of the charming hatrack women, at the same time sharp, moral, and sweet as pie.
[ February 22, 2006, 01:21 AM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
I'm sorry, but the whole "Lets be nice to the newbies and they'll be nice back" thing is a bunch of crap. You're not going to get a response if you don't bring attention to the problem. Sure, singling out people may not be the best thing, but calling attention to the idiocy plaguing the forum is the only way to get it moving up hill again.
Point of fact, this is not a new trend for Hatrack. In fact, the only new trend I see is the fact that the veterans are getting more apathetic about calling people out. There once was a time where we'd sit the kiddies aside and let them know how things went 'round these parts. Now, I don't see that happening as much or at all.
I don't blame them, though. There are better times/places to expend that kind of energy.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
<-- is a newbie
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Tante, you might have missed it, but the reason this thread was addressed to Blayne in particular is that he read LadyDove's comment in it's original context. She got caught out talking behind his back, and was -- very graciously, as far as I'm concerned -- apologizing for it in "public."
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Nah Tante, I don't think you really qualify as a newbie anymore. Some people pass through that phase more quickly than others. And no, it's not because you average about 700 posts a month that you're not really a newbie; it's more of a personality thing.
Posted by clod (Member # 9084) on :
<-- is an incalcitrant newbie.
Primal Curve,
I couldn't agree with you more. The kiddies should be sat aside.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:This is not the first thread this week started in order to call someone out for bad behavior. I'm not entirely comfortable with (what I sincerely hope will not become) the trend.
I hope that it won't become a trend because I hope that they won't be needed after a while.
I think they're needed now.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*agrees with mph*
Posted by clod (Member # 9084) on :
MPH,
This prolly isn't relevant to this thread, but I've kinda felt that you had a sour opinion of me. Is that true?
[edit: by "me", I mean to include the banned handles I've posted under before.]
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Why ever would he?
I mean, it's not as though you posted insulting inanities all over a significant thread of his?
Oh, wait.
Posted by clod (Member # 9084) on :
Well, I found him to be a generally disagreeable, territorial (in the extreme!) and pugnacious individual.
Also, entrenched.
It may not be adequately etiquettible, but there's certainly some argument for my finding a likable target in that situation and aiming for a couple missives.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
*kicks clod in the junk*
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Those who fire missives (or missiles) should not be surprised by return salvos.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Is "ettiquitible" even a word?
-pH
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH: Is "ettiquitible" even a word?
No. But I wish it were.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Tante, that is an unetiquettibe wish!
-pH
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Fallow -- first of all, I have never been sure until now that you really were fallow. My behavior toward you has been a reaction to your posting style under the name clod.
The short answer is that while I don't have any particular animosity toward you (not even knowing who you were), I have had two problems with your posting style. First, you come across as pretty insulting a fair amoung of the time. Second, I also find it annoying that instead of participating in discussions (which are what I think makes this place special), you make tangential (at best) comments all over the place.
It's not that there isn't a place for fluff at Hatrack, even though it's not something that I personally enjoy or generally participate in. But you seem to try to take every thread you post in and turn it into mindless prattle.
I find it distracting, annoying, and disrespectful toward the people trying to have a real conversation.
I hope that's not to harsh. I wouldn't have said anything if I hadn't been asked. I know that Beverly liked you even though she couldn't fathom why you insisted on acting like you sometimes do. And since she is much wiser than I, anybody she likes gets automatic benefit of the doubt from me.
I'm off to bed. Any continuation of this will have to wait until tomorrow.
[ February 22, 2006, 02:07 AM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I found [Mr. Porteiro Head] to be a generally disagreeable, territorial (in the extreme!) and pugnacious individual.
There's probably some truth to that. Comments, anyone?
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
::shrug:: Maybe I've never chanced to walk on your lawn because, though I find you to be extremely frank, I don't find you to be overly territorial or disagreeable
I had to look-up "pugnacious", it's a good word, but I don't think it applies either.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
Last time I tried to steal mph's lawn gnomes, he shot me in the knee.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote:Originally posted by clod: <-- is an incalcitrant newbie.
Primal Curve,
I couldn't agree with you more. The kiddies should be sat aside.
And if we were going to do that, you'd be on that list.
Posted by clod (Member # 9084) on :
Tater-head,
I find your harshness to be quite refreshing, actually. At least its out in the open.
*sweet dreams*
fallow
Posted by clod (Member # 9084) on :
quote:::shrug:: Maybe I've never chanced to walk on your lawn because, though I find you to be extremely frank, I don't find you to be overly territorial or disagreeable
I had to look-up "pugnacious", it's a good word, but I don't think it applies either.
Hey now!
*delivers a justly deserved kick to LadyDove's junk*
I was just about to head off to bed!
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:I found [Mr. Porteiro Head] to be a generally disagreeable, territorial (in the extreme!) and pugnacious individual.
There's probably some truth to that. Comments, anyone?
There are some people here who I would say that comment applies to. I would not, however, have put you on that list.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
No, but I get to be on the list, right? Right? Choose me, choose me, oh Evil One! Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I don't even remember want to write.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
Makin a list, checkin it twice, gonna find out who's naughty or nice ...
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
quote:Tres, that is true in a vacuum of information, but after it is lost, it must be earned.
Saying "respect must be earned" is just another way of telling someone you have chosen not to respect them.
Respect is different from Trust. Trust must be earned because it is dangerous to trust the untrustworthy. But there is no danger in respecting someone who doesn't deserve it. At worst, the cost of respecting someone is just having to go through the effort of treating them decently and thinking about them as an equal - I don't think that cost is too great. For that reason, I'm inclined to believe respect should be given, and not withheld from those who can't "earn" it.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
Seriously though, I remember when I first started posting. Not even a year ago. So I guess I'm still a newbie. But when I first started posting, I felt intimidated almost by the strong sense of community. I felt like I hadn't earned my place to speak. And unfortunately, I attributed that to the post count number. So I set about running up my post count through fluff threads. Now, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But I did it to the exclusion of posting anything meaningful. And that was a big mistake, obviously. I've come to realize that it truly is the content of people's post that others pay attention to, much more so than the post count number or member number.
So in conclusion, I guess this is just a newbie saying that there is hope for us. But of course, all you wise and wiley veterans already knew that .
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Woah woah woah slow down clod SLOW DOWN! My head has exploded and I'm sending you the bill.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I respect people at a basic human level, and that's generally something they'd have to actively TRY to lose. It's possible to do so by, say lying, stealing, harming others, being disrepectful themselves...and so on.
There's also respect for their mind, or their skills, or their talent, and that kind of thing IS earned. It's hard work to be clever, or well read, or good at something. And when I see that, I can respect it. To me, that includes communication skills. I don't think it's unwarranted to hold someone's excellent communication skills in high regard when they display them. Are you saying I'd have to give the same measure of respect to someone who hasn't done the hard work to get to that level?
My basic respect for someone as a person might keep me from being truly sarcastic (most of the time -- there have been notable exceptions). My respect for their accomplishments allows me to connect with them on a different level -- admiration.
I'd love to say that I can approach each human being starting from a position of unconditional positive regard and mutual respect. I can't. Ultimately, the best I can say about myself is that I hope to give people the chance to demonstrate their uniqueness and to find something good in them. I usually do okay with this. I have some problems in person, but on a web-board where I don't have to get over my own biases with respect to appearance or hygeine, for example, I can usually wait awhile before forming an opinion of someone.
Unless they tell me their favorite ice cream flavor.
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: Unless they tell me their favorite ice cream flavor.
Chocolate.
So what has this done to your opinion of me?
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Butter scotch ripple.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Vanilla topped with hot sauce or chili peppers
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
Weirdo's, we all know Bob will like you best if you like Garlic ice cream.
Posted by Kasie H (Member # 2120) on :
quote:There have been several people recently who have shown a continuing refusal to conform, to listen, or to think before posting.
I'm with you on listening and thinking before posting. But "conforming"? That seems a little extreme, and, frankly, creativity-stifling. I mean, how many of us actually feel we "conform" in real life, let alone here? I always thought the point was a relaxed place where you could be yourself, as long as you did it with correct spelling and punctuation?
Second, I don't know how I feel about this definition of "noob." How do you count people like me, who've been here for almost five years now but have post counts below 2000? I guess my presence here is kind of sporadic, but I don't feel like it's anything *new.*
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:And if we were going to do that, you'd be on that list.
My sentiments exactly.
quote:Saying "respect must be earned" is just another way of telling someone you have chosen not to respect them.
Saying that you can just choose to respect someone who's done nothing to earn it pays lip service to respect. When you give something away you devalue it. If you don't want to earn respect, you're saying that you're not worthy of it.
Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
While this thread has spawned some interesting comments, I still don't understand why it was created here in the first place.....
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Y'know -- there are parts of people IRL that I respect greatly, and there are parts that I don't much like.
They seem to come in the same package, without exception.
Part of the task of being in community with people (IMO) is to learn to see the whole person, and to get to know them for all the parts, good and bad.
Just thinking --
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Sorry for the double post, but since that was directed at me and I happen to be here I thought I'd answer.
quote:I'm with you on listening and thinking before posting. But "conforming"? That seems a little extreme, and, frankly, creativity-stifling. I mean, how many of us actually feel we "conform" in real life, let alone here? I always thought the point was a relaxed place where you could be yourself, as long as you did it with correct spelling and punctuation?
I don't mean conform in the sense where everyone is exactly the same. I mean conforming in the sense that everyone conforms in their daily lives. There are certain rules, laws, and cultural mores that every productive citizen tries to follow because they value the community. That's what I meant. If you want to throw a can on the ground and you don't do it, it's not because you're afraid you're gonna get ticketed. It's an easy thing to take a glance around and see if a cop is watching. It's because you don't want to live in a trashy place. That common desire is what keeps people from living for themselves.
-----
I don't consider you a noob, and I can't imagine that that part of your post was directed at me, since you've been here a lot longer. As someone said to Tante, post count doesn't determine newbie status. When you show that you care enough to learn what the standard of behavior is then you're not a newbie. Post count doesn't indicate anything but how much (or little) you talk. It doesn't show whether your posts say anything.
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
I find it perfectly okay to start a thread addressing a general problem. However, I do not think it is appropriate to start a thread meant to criticize a specific individual, even if an apology of sorts is in some way obscurely being made somewhere in the original post. If there is a specific individual with a specific problem, the problem should be addressed at the time of its occurrence, or it should be addressed in private through email, but not with a dedicated thread open to all. Regarding this situation, I think a general thread could have been started here, but the specific issue should have been dealt with at the forum that it happened at.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Last time I tried to steal mph's lawn gnomes, he shot me in the knee.
True, but it was just with rock salt. Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
Ok, so my post was too passive aggressive.
I have a great deal of respect for LadyDove, but if her intention is to apologize for talking about people behind their back, why bring the issue to a different forum? The talking behind the back was done at a different forum, and the public apology belongs there. To bring it here, to me, seems only to further exacerbate the problem.
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
quote:When you give something away you devalue it.
I don't agree. If you respect me, I don't think that respect is worth any less if you give it away freely to other people too. It's similar to love. If you love your children, I don't think that love is any less valueable to them if you give it to them unconditionally.
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shan: Y'know -- there are parts of people IRL that I respect greatly, and there are parts that I don't much like.
They seem to come in the same package, without exception.
Part of the task of being in community with people (IMO) is to learn to see the whole person, and to get to know them for all the parts, good and bad.
Hear, hear. Problem being, since this isn't RL, we don't generally get to see all the parts. I don't think anyone here would really say they know me by what I choose to post (mostly fluff). I enjoy reading and participating, but I'm a bit of an introvert IRL and tend to be online as well. Takes a while to get to know me.
When people choose to prominently display their attention-getting, sophomoric sides they're gonna get flack for it, just like they would IRL. But in the six months or so that I've been hanging out here, I have to say it's to the credit of Hatrack that along with that flack I have seen so much giving of the benefit of the doubt and attempting to get to know more of the person.
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
I think I'd personally define n00b as a person who doesn't have enough of a feel of the community in general to have their posting be appropriate to the topic. This is something that can be gained by a lot of time on the forum. An off-topic post or two can be suffered if it's appropriate.
I'm not a newb, but I don't post very often anymore. Not to mention that when I did, it was never in any thread of substance. Whee fluff!!
(Bob: Neopolitan!)
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Ludosti the reason why she's apologizing here is because I am not the only person who was *gossiped* about behind ones back, an act that to me makes me the most paranoid of, aside from being shot and dumped ina river by certain friends and family members which occurs in my dreams.
However she apologized and I am okay.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:I don't agree. If you respect me, I don't think that respect is worth any less if you give it away freely to other people too. It's similar to love. If you love your children, I don't think that love is any less valueable to them if you give it to them unconditionally.
It's not similar to love, for one thing. And your example is spurious, for the second thing.
If you say, "I respect everyone in the world equally" then you're devaluing respect. Everyone has it and did nothing to earn it. What's the point?
Loving your children is a terrible analogy, because of course loving your children unconditionally doesn't devalue love. But if you love the neighbor's kids as much as your own, even thought they light your mailbox on fire and take pictures of your wife in the shower then you're devaluing love.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by breyerchic04: Weirdo's, we all know Bob will like you best if you like Garlic ice cream.
I had garlic ice cream at the Gilroy Garlic Festival one year.
(apropos of nothing...)
Posted by Chungwa (Member # 6421) on :
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: [QUOTE] But if you love the neighbor's kids as much as your own, even thought they light your mailbox on fire and take pictures of your wife in the shower then you're devaluing love.
While I'm sure people don't love their neighbour's kids as much as their own very often - even if they did what you suggest, I'm not sure I'd say that loving your neighbour's kids as much as your own children devalues love. It may be considered strange, but I don't think it means that love is less.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I'm not convinced that there's anything inherently wrong with talking about someone when they aren't present.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
I'm disappointed by Hatrack lately, and it's not because of Blayne, although I find him annoying at times. That doesn't matter. I find plenty of people annoying, and it has a lot to do with my moods at the moment.
What I am disappointed by is the lack of standards, lately. Veterans who do try to give the new posters pointers for how to post for readability and to earn respect get blasted by other veterans for not being nice enough or suppressing freedom or not taking the time to try to understand a badly worded post.
I think they're missing the point. Hatrack is a haven among online forums. It was, and I hope it still is or at least will be, a place where you can have a decent conversation on nearly any topic with intelligent and thought-provoking people. It's not like you have to be a MENSA member to fit in, but you are expected to stop and think before you post and to take the time to make sure others can actually understand what you write. I don't mean that every post has to be serious, in fact, part of the charm of Hatrack has been its light-hearted banter and fluff threads. A balance is definitely necessary.
Correcting new users and explaining what makes Hatrack different isn't mean or confining. It's iniating new users into our culture here and letting them know that not all Internet forums are alike. I think when they come to really understand what Hatrack is, they will understand why it is special.
It is not name-calling and making fun or being mean to new users (or even old users who have still not learned to behave) that we need. We don't need a new stricter set of rules that we insist you must follow or you're out of the club. We must teach the new users what is acceptable behavior and WHY it is desirable. I have heard others state that they used to take the time for one-on-one instruction, but I think the forum has grown too large for that. Instead, maybe we need some veterans to come forward in a new thread and explain what makes Hatrack special. Maybe we need to give the new users practical examples of proper forum decorum. Sometimes people, especially younger people, lack the experience to take abstract principles and put them into actual practice. Heck, it's even hard for me sometimes.
We can try to do something.... or we can complain about the state of Hatrack these days while it continues to die, becoming... just another forum.
-Katarain
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
I refuse to believe that Hatrack is dying, infact I believe its maturing.
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: infact I believe its maturing.
I can't agree with that. Perhaps "changing" would be a more fitting word.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
*whimpers* I don't wanna grow up, I wanna be a toys are us kid
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
Changing is a generic word. Everything is changing. Saying Hatrack is changing doesn't really say anything.
If dying is too strong a term for you, fine. But I certainly believe it is in a decline.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
How is it devolving? To say it is devolving when so many new members are joining now really isn't complementary or a good .... something to new members.
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
I meant that I didn't agree with the "maturing" part. I can understand the dying perspective, or at least the idea that Hatrack might be losing some of what made it a special place to many of the older members.
[I went back and edited the earlier post for clarity.]
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
quote: I can't agree with that. Perhaps "changing" would be a more fitting word.
Mutating seems to fit better with the overall tone of the board lately...
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
Blayne, it is not my purpose to be complimentary to new members simply because they're new members. Rather, I want them to be taught, as gently as possible and as firmly as needed, what Hatrack is about, what makes it special, and how to fit in. Fitting in isn't the same as being the same. They don't have to change who they are, but they certainly should learn to be respectful of others and of their own words.
An influx of new members doesn't automatically equal maturing. If those new members were attempting to actually become real members and part of the already formed group--that would be maturing, because new people always change the group they join, and that's good. It's not hard to be part of this group--but many new users aren't even trying.
camus, I'm sorry I misunderstood.
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
That still does not mean its in decline, to tell them what they should do in the way you describe is fine but how is it in decline?
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
If it's gradually losing a lot of the qualities that make it special due only to the refusal of new members to learn what those qualities are, how is that not a decline?
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
What El JT de Spang said.
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
quote:If you say, "I respect everyone in the world equally" then you're devaluing respect. Everyone has it and did nothing to earn it. What's the point?
Do you think the value of respect is that it's something you have and other people don't?
I don't. I think the "point" of respect is knowing that you are being viewed and treated fairly as an equal and worthwhile human being. Respecting other people does not make you respect me any less, and doesn't make me appreciate that respect any less. Why should it?
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
It's a decline when people feel who have been around for years feel less comfortable here, aren't happy, don't want to discuss their lives. It's declining when less people plan to meet each other, less people become close off the board friends.
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
quote:Originally posted by Xaposert:
quote:When you give something away you devalue it.
I don't agree. If you respect me, I don't think that respect is worth any less if you give it away freely to other people too. It's similar to love. If you love your children, I don't think that love is any less valueable to them if you give it to them unconditionally.
Suppose your wife were to give away freely to other men the same love that she has for you. The fact that she loves other men doesn't itself change how much she loves you, but it does change how much her love means to you. Likewise, if you respect everyone in the same way regardless of what they do, that most certainly does devalue the meaning of respect, especially to those that are deserving of that respect.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Suppose your wife were to give away freely to other men the same love that she has for you. The fact that she loves other men doesn't itself change how much she loves you
I disagree. An important part of the love between my wife and I is its exclusivity.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
I think there are several types of respect. I can respect a person's value as a human without respecting their choices and actions.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I agree with Katarain.
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
quote:Suppose your wife were to give away freely to other men the same love that she has for you. The fact that she loves other men doesn't itself change how much she loves you, but it does change how much her love means to you. Likewise, if you respect everyone in the same way regardless of what they do, that most certainly does devalue the meaning of respect, especially to those that are deserving of that respect.
A marriage is exclusive. It can only be between two people, and you can't be married to many people at once. Hence that sort of unique love is not comparable to respect, which is not an exclusive relationship.
That's why I said love of one's child, since you can have multiple children, and loving an additional child does not subtract anything from the value of the love you give to the previous children. Having two children does not mean you love each any less than if you had one. And withholding love from a child that doesn't get good grades, or act nicely, or win at sports, or be the sort of person you want them to be, does not make your love any more valuable to them.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:I had garlic ice cream at the Gilroy Garlic Festival one year.
(apropos of nothing...)
Me, too! Also chocolate-covered garlic.
The Garlic Festival rocks!
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote:Originally posted by Katarain: Changing is a generic word. Everything is changing. Saying Hatrack is changing doesn't really say anything.
If dying is too strong a term for you, fine. But I certainly believe it is in a decline.
quote:Originally posted by breyerchic04: It's a decline when people feel who have been around for years feel less comfortable here, aren't happy, don't want to discuss their lives. It's declining when less people plan to meet each other, less people become close off the board friends.
I have contemplated - many times over the last six months - leaving and not coming back. But then I think about it and realize that if all the good people leave because they've had enough of the negativity, then Hatrack will sink into the pit it's headed for.
I've noticed many who used to post much more frequently, people who I enjoyed interacting with, people who were fun and interesting and entertaining and intelligent, are seldom here. Some I haven't seen here at all lately. I don't know their reasons for not being here - I only know that I miss them - I miss the warmth and kindness they bring.
Instead, we have more anger, more hostility, more negativity, more racism, more vitriole.
I, personally, am getting tired of it. I don't know that I really want to be here much anymore. But then, I haven't been here as much. My time spent here has been tapering off, and I go entire days without being here. All I know is that I don't look forward to Hatrack anymore, not like I used to. I don't like how I feel when I read some threads. I don't think it's worth it for me to expose myself to so much that's negative.
Am I saying that I'm definitely leaving? Nope. I'm just saying this is how I've felt.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
After reading this thread, I was thinking if I've been doing anything annoying/wrong on the forum. Just want to say that if I ever say something stupid or start getting annoying, I'd appreciate it if someone e-mailed me to let me know.
Posted by Celaeno (Member # 8562) on :
On the other board I frequent, many of the oldbies fled to a private forum. They couldn't tolerate what the boards had turned into. Every now and then they return to lament how much better things were in the old days. (I've been to their new forum, and it feels like exactly the same thing to me.)
What they don't seem to understand is that a forum's dynamic will constantly change. With every influx of newbies comes a personality shift. Of course it's not going to be exactly the same as it used to be. Nothing is static. But when the dynamic of a forum changes, it changes for a reason. It would seem that the new dynamic is best suited for the majority of the forum's regulars. If it weren't, how would it last?
When something that you love changes in a way that you don't appreciate, you can do one of two things. You can either abandon it, or you can stick around and use what influence you have to mold it.
I know I'm new, so I'm significantly less invested in this community than a lot of others are. But I really do hope that all of you stick around. I can see why you feel like the general caliber of the threads has decreased, but you're the ones who can change that.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
Ludosti, I value you too, and I prefer the direct to the passive aggressive, so I thank you for the clarification.
I originally wrote the text as an email to Blayne, but realized that lamenting/whining to someone else about behavior on HR, was also disrespectful and unhelpful to solving my problem with Hatrack. Frankly, it was a reflection of my unwillingness to put in the work to help fix a problem here. I was being lazy by whining, and believed that nothing productive could come of it unless I corrected my error. **********
I love Hatrack. I have some dear friends here. There are voices, learned here, that have become a part of my conscience (BTW, Katharina, you know that I was hearing your voice as I was making this decision).
I do lament the recent tone of the forum. I think that the forum was taken more seriously by the old guard than it is by the new guard. There was a time when the majority of the people cared (maybe too much) about being respected, being part of a cherished community and interacting with others who felt the same way. There was passion and a wide range of interests to keep people involved.
I feel like the new crop treats HR as a playground. A chatroom. I don't see the investment of spirit that brings out the best in a poster. Words and thoughts don't seem to be sacred to them, but disposable like a Happy Meal toy. I see the petty whining and poor spelling and grammar as a symptom of this lack of investment. Sadly, the more the forum is graffitied by this attitude, the less value it seems to have to someone like me.
But as others have said, if you value something, you should be willing to, at times, put more into it than you're getting out of it. For me, this is one of those times.
So, I'm opening myself up to ridicule by pointing out the blemishes.
Please note though, I have been here long enough to see people meet and get married, have children, learn to love themselves.. there have even been a couple of lives saved here. If my hurt at trivializing the power this forum can possess seems overly dramatic to some, that's okay. Sometimes it's worth looking foolish if the cause is worth it.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by quidscribis: I have contemplated - many times over the last six months - leaving and not coming back.
About the time I joined up. Huh.
I for one would miss you if you went away. Won't you stay and show us newbies the right way to do it?
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Tante, it's nothing to do with you.
I'm not saying I'm leaving. I don't know whether I am or not. I'm just saying that I've thought a lot about it.
The thing is that showing the newbies the right way to do things assumes that a. the newbies want to know b. the newbies care enough to try and c. I (or others) have the energy or stamina to do it.
Personally, I don't. I have enough going on and I have enough to deal with without putting myself in the way of personal attacks on me or putting up with very hateful emails posted to me full of garbage of the worst kind, or threats for that matter. Some people here react in ways that I would consider excessively over the top, and it's directed at me full tilt. I don't know if others have received emails of that sort or if I've been singled out.
In any case, I don't really feel like opening myself up to more of that kind of garbage. Enough.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Folk ought to be nice to you.
Tante says so!
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
*blink* quids, you've gotten hateful emails from forum members?
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Um, yes. Many.
ETA: What, am I the only one? I doubt that.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
That's definitely not okay. Have you let PM know?
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
It was email directly to me, not through the board, and they did not bother to identify themselves as to which Hatracker they were. There was no point in discussing it with PM. It wouldn't have accomplished anything.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I don't know if you're the only one, but I've never gotten any and I've never heard anyone else say they have. Of course, I don't have my email address visible, so they would have to go through the board and be identified as what Hatracker they were.
I'm so sorry to hear that. Like Shan said, it's totally not okay, and knocks my faith in humanity and hatrackers down a little further. :/
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
quid, I just sent you an email -- a friendly one -- you are one of the people who makes Hatrack enjoyable for me, and I'm SO sorry to hear that there are jerks here who would be mean to someone so obviously good.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
quid, I'm so sorry to hear that. I haven't gotten any, but as ElJay noted, that could be because my email addy isn't public.
I can't imagine why anyone would feel the need to treat you hostilely. You're such a fun, yet common sense person. ::shakes head:: This is disappointing. Please don't go.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
First things first. This is not me threatening to go, and I don't want this thread to turn into some kind of popularity contest or a discussion about me. I don't need that, and I'm honestly more than a little uncomfortable being the focus of that sort of thing.
I'd rather that this thread continue to focus on discussing how to improve the joint. Not that I've necessarily been doing that myself, but hey, them's the breaks, right?
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote: It's a decline when people feel who have been around for years feel less comfortable here, aren't happy, don't want to discuss their lives. It's declining when less people plan to meet each other, less people become close off the board friends.
Although I don't always post a lot, I've been here for years. People feeling that Hatrack used to be better is nothing new. Four years ago, people said that Hatrack was dying. However I do think that there might be some truth to the above quote. I think the change has nothing to do with Hatrack and everything to do with the private forum that many here frequent. When the people who have been here for years get annoyed with Hatrack, they put less effort into fixing it and just go to the other forum.
I used to frequent the other forum and I enjoyed the conversations that it produces. However, I have stopped checking it because the place is not very welcoming. I think that this is the very quality that these old members enjoy about that forum and find irritating about this one. It can get tiring having to constantly deal with new people, especially when you don't have to. Perhaps all that has changed is these people's level of tolerance.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quid, how could anyone seriously send you hateful e-mails? I deserve them more than you do, and I've never gotten a one.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dr Strangelove:
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee:
quote:Originally posted by Dr Strangelove:
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: this too shall pass
I really love that line. For some reason it just really works for me. Such a great mantra.
It must be particularly comfortable to anyone who's had kidney stones.
Thank you Dag, now I can go to bed smiling.
Then you have obviously never had them. Trust me, when they are passing you wish they weren't! Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:A marriage is exclusive. It can only be between two people, and you can't be married to many people at once. Hence that sort of unique love is not comparable to respect, which is not an exclusive relationship.
There have been plenty of societies in which marriages were not necessarily exclusive. It's unfair to say that these people automatically value marriage or family less than our traditionally monogamous society, since as far as I know, no one here has been raised in a society that did not dictate that marriage is an exclusive relationship.
That said, I'm on the "I have a certain respect for people in that they are alive and sentient, but I have a whole different level of respect that can only be earned" boat.
-pH
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
quote:That's why I said love of one's child, since you can have multiple children, and loving an additional child does not subtract anything from the value of the love you give to the previous children. Having two children does not mean you love each any less than if you had one. And withholding love from a child that doesn't get good grades, or act nicely, or win at sports, or be the sort of person you want them to be, does not make your love any more valuable to them.
That's a misinformed opinion. I know a lot of people whose parents withheld love from them as punishment for various things, and even though my friends now KNOW that this was a 'punishment', they still crave that love and acceptance.
My opinion is much the same as Katarain's. Most people respect another person's intrinsic value as a person, but reserve a deeper kind of respect for those people they feel have done things that are worthy of esteem. I respect and value even people I've never met as part of the faceless horde, but I won't respect them individually until I get to know them.
Edit: Curse you, pH!!
Posted by Kasie H (Member # 2120) on :
quote:I do lament the recent tone of the forum. I think that the forum was taken more seriously by the old guard than it is by the new guard. There was a time when the majority of the people cared (maybe too much) about being respected, being part of a cherished community and interacting with others who felt the same way. There was passion and a wide range of interests to keep people involved.
This strikes me as right on; I remember when I had just joined I was *extremely* concerned I wouldn't fit in or be respected by other members. Maybe it was because I was only 16 and was generally tired of being dismissed because I was so young (and the Internet is, of course, great because you don't have to reveal your age). I was lucky, because I managed to impress Irami (then Snowden) in my very first thread .
Still, I don't get the feeling that a lot of newer members really have this same approach. Some do -- we still see a lot of introductions, "Hi, this is who I am, etc," which, when properly worded, is indicative of a desire to insinuate themselves into the community. Too often I've noticed posters who just show up, out of the blue, and begin posting *prolifically*. I am *amazed* how much back and forth these threads can go (See Reticulum's recent thread about not being two other people...what was the other poster's name?). To me, this kind of utter crap seems entirely out of character, and when I originally joined I would have been embarassed to put my name to that sort of thing. I think that's changed.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Amanecer, I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't agree, obviously. . . I've been a member here for almost two years and a member there for almost a year. I didn't join there sooner than I did because I was afraid I wouldn't be welcome, and it was a couple of months before I really felt like I belonged. But it was almost a year here before I really felt like I belonged. *shrug* I attribute the difference in time to both the size difference and since there is a lot of crossover the fact that I already knew most of the people who post there.
As far as putting less effort into Hatrack because there are other places to go. . . I'm going to repost:
quote:I go through phases with it, personally. Dana referred to it as "taming" newbies once, and sometimes it really feels like that. Sometimes I have the patience and the caring to engage people with the kind of one-on-one attention that they need in order to feel like a part of the community and start to care, in turn, about living up to community expectations. I feel like there's a vast difference between telling someone how they need to behave and explaining to them in a way they can understand why others behave the way they do and why their posts will be more effective if they follow the same guidelines. If I'm not in the right mood, I don't do it, because like JT said, it feels like overstepping my bounds. And if there's a critical mass of people who don't want to do things "the old way" anymore, who am I to be in there insisting that they do, just because I like it? Maybe it is just a natural evolution of the forum, influenced by the different type of readers that are currently attracted to OSC's books.
I do still engage newer posters here when I feel like I can make a difference. But if there's a thread where two or three of them are posting in a way I don't enjoy but obviously enjoying themselves, I'm not going to be a killjoy and tell them the forum has to be to them what it is to me.
The other thing I want to comment on is this line of yours:
quote:When the people who have been here for years get annoyed with Hatrack, they put less effort into fixing it and just go to the other forum.
I'm feeling a little defensive, because I am a member of the other forum you are talking about. Postcount doesn't mean a lot of things that people try to make it mean. It can't show that someone isn't spending time at a forum, because they may be lurking and not posting, but it can show when someone is. Because otherwise they couldn't be posting, obviously. When I registered at the other forum I had less than 2000 posts here. In the 10 months since, I've made over 3600 additional posts here, as well as just under 3000 posts there. For me, at least, it's an in addition too, not instead of. There are a lot of other people who are also active posters at two or more forums. I resent the statement that my time spent there reduces Hatrack. I don't think it does. If I was only a member here, I don't think I would have made an additional 3000 posts here last year.
Different places serve different purposes. I honestly believe that if I hadn't registered at sake, I would still go through phases about being willing to invest time in newbies, and I would still feel like a whole bunch of them at once was overwhelming. The only difference is that if I reduced my presense here because of it I would be going to an unrelated place instead of one that has many of the same people. But, as my burgeoning postcount shows, I haven't reduced my presense anywhere. I'm talkative, and I'm egocentric and think everyone should be graced with the pleasure of getting to listen to me, so you can't get me to shut up. And yeah, I occasionally gripe about Hatrack, or about specific people on Hatrack. I also occasionally gripe about my job, members of my group of friends, and my family. (Don't be trying to figure out which one I'm talking about, I'm talking about ALL of you!) Doesn't mean I don't love this place, doesn't mean I don't invest in it.
I'm sorry you didn't feel welcomed at sake. I noticed when you started posting, and I noticed when you left. I know we interacted at least once or twice. If I did anything specifically to make you feel uncomfortable, I apologize for that. But I do not apologize for being a member there, or enjoying the community, or feeling that it fills a different need than Hatrack. For me, it does. Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I just wanted to chime in and say that quid getting mean emails is completely wrong in all the ways that something can be wrong.
It's despicable.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Agreed!
Posted by Sid Meier (Member # 6965) on :
Why can't I get hate mail? oh wait I got it once.... bad experiance.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I'm going to jump in on the quid getting hate mail= bad bandwagon. I can't believe anyone would do something like that.
And quid, I don't think everyone's saying this simply because it's you (although you are one of my favorite members here, and one of the nicest people I know). The idea that anyone here need ever worry that what they say will cause them to receive hate emails is despicable and makes me incredibly angry.
I hope that everyone will join in and condemn it here to drive home the point that it will never be acceptable to send anyone here hate email, no matter how the forum changes.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:When the people who have been here for years get annoyed with Hatrack, they put less effort into fixing it and just go to the other forum.
I like both forums very much, but I agree with this.
I think the griping about Hatrack on other forums is a major destructive force to the Hatrack community, just as destructive as the idiotic newbies.
Quid: I've gotten them before, too. Those people are Losers. Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
blacwolve, I think that was very well said. Thank you.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote:The idea that anyone here need ever worry that what they say will cause them to receive hate emails is despicable and makes me incredibly angry.
I hope that everyone will join in and condemn it here to drive home the point that it will never be acceptable to send anyone here hate email, no matter how the forum changes.
blacwolve, I agree with what you said... To a point.
That point is that it should never be acceptable to post here here that is hateful, either.
That, to me, is a bigger problem.
With hate email, it ends with me. Or katharina or anyone else who's received it. It has a limited audience, so unless I say something and divulge the contents, there's no one to think "Oh, that's normal behavior then. I think I'll send a hate email."
When hateful posts are posted here - in public and for everyone to see - and no one decries them, they're then more likely to be seen as acceptable. Hatemongering then has the opportunity to become the norm. Ten or twenty people jump on the bandwagon insulting someone or some group of people for no reason other than that person disagreed with them or was perceived to disagree with them or is different from them or for some other silly reason.
Edited for clarity of thought. Not that I have much, just hopefully a smidge more than before.
[ February 23, 2006, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: quidscribis ]
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
ElJay, you did absolutely nothing to make me feel uncomfortable. In fact, I think you specifically welcomed me when I came. The reason I found it unwelcoming is that many people there consider it a place where they can relax with people they already know and like. Multiple statements were made about not linking to it via Hatrack so as to avoid attracting too many people. Going there felt kind of like crashing a private party. There is nothing wrong with that kind of environment. In fact, I think there's something wonderful about such an intimate place. However I think that part of that intimacy comes from its exclusiveness. If everybody on Hatrack went there, the place would lose a lot of what makes it unique. I am not trying to criticize because I see nothing wrong with this. I’m just trying to explain my reaction to it since it has come up.
quote: I honestly believe that if I hadn't registered at sake, I would still go through phases about being willing to invest time in newbies, and I would still feel like a whole bunch of them at once was overwhelming. The only difference is that if I reduced my presense here because of it I would be going to an unrelated place instead of one that has many of the same people. But, as my burgeoning postcount shows, I haven't reduced my presense anywhere.
I believe that this is true for you and many others at sake. However, I have noticed a growing trend of old members who complain about Hatrack and claim that it is losing what made it special. I think that many of these are people who have started to post less on Hatrack and more on sake. It is my own opinion that Hatrack has lost nothing and is still a place that attracts thoughtful people and interesting discussions. I don’t even agree that Hatrack is attracting a new crowd. I joined when I was around 15, and I was far from the only young and immature person here when I joined. In fact, I don’t use the screen name I originally joined with because many of my initial posts were so immature. I suspect that the increase in complaints comes from people finding something that they like better than Hatrack and feeling frustrated with Hatrack for not being something that it never was, Sake. I am not trying to attack sake or any of its members. If people actually do leave Hatrack for Sake, that is their decision to make. However, I do not believe that it has anything to with Hatrack becoming a worse place.
And quidscribis, I'm sorry to hear that you recieved hate mail. I hope that you do not leave. I enjoy your presence here and Hatrack would be worse off without you.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quid that's terrible!
I suggest hiding your email. People can still get in touch with you, but they do have to go through the board and are identifiable. That won't stop anyone who wants to exchange friendly but might slow down the losers.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Thanks for the clarification, Amanecer. That helps a lot. I kinda disagree with you. . . I think that the people who complain are the ones who are still here and are trying to do something about it. The ones who have decided that Hatrack is no longer a place where they can be comfortable for the most part either don't come here at all any more or come here very seldom and are careful not to complain. But I don't think that's something that can be objectively answered, so it's probably just two different viewpoints of the same thing. Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
I'm gald that was helpful. I was afraid I came off as anti-Sake, which was not my intent. And I could be very wrong in my oberservations. This is merely the way that it appears to me.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
(making a joke, a joke)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[No No]](graemlins/nono.gif)
). I'm betting that if the provocative behavior garners no attention, it will quickly fade. Keeping those threads going on the front page with multiple pages of fury and debate is really just encouraging the poster. Ignored threads quickly sink out of sight. ![[Evil]](graemlins/evil.gif)
![[Kiss]](graemlins/kiss.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
I deserve them more than you do, and I've never gotten a one.
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
I hope that you do not leave. I enjoy your presence here and Hatrack would be worse off without you.