I'm not sure if this is appropriate for this forum or not, but I am faced with a dilemma. When I first started dating my girlfriend I wanted to do anything to make her happy, and told her that I would convert to Catholicism and raise our children (should we ever have them) Catholic. We have just passed our 1 year mark and recently I've decided that I don't want to compromise my beliefs in that way. Is this wrong of me? Do we have to break up now? What do you guys think? I need feedback before I make a big mistake.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
If you are considering creating a family, I think that agreeing on religion and how you will raise your children is one of those things it is not a good idea to forsake.
In other words, if your beliefs are important to you and you don't want your kids to be raised Catholic, and her beliefs are important to her and she wants to raise her kids Catholic, then if you stay together it will be a major source of conflict all your lives. Unless someone gives. Which, if history guides, will be expected to be you.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
You need to be honest, and open with her. You have agreed to raise your children Catholic, if you keep your mouth shut about not wanting to do that, you have no right to complain down the line.
At the same time, I'm pretty sure people of all faiths agree, if your heart is not in a conversion, it is not a conversion.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
First, you need to be honest with her. Have you told her how you feel?
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
Yes, I told her, but we haven't had a chance to really discuss it yet. We will soon, and I don't want to go in to this from a potentially harmfull viewpoint.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by vonk: Yes, I told her, but we haven't had a chance to really discuss it yet. We will soon, and I don't want to go in to this from a potentially harmfull viewpoint.
What is your belief system, if you don't mind me asking?
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
My beliefs can be fairly easily incorporated into most structures. There isn't enough space here to tell you everything i believe, but i do believe that a very special person named Yessuah existed about 2000 years ago and had great teachings. beyond that, i don't have much faith in christianity. i was always the kid in bible school who asked, "if we're supposed to be as Christ like as possible, why aren't we Jewish?"
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by vonk: My beliefs can be fairly easily incorporated into most structures. There isn't enough space here to tell you everything i believe, but i do believe that a very special person named Yessuah existed about 2000 years ago and had great teachings. beyond that, i don't have much faith in christianity. i was always the kid in bible school who asked, "if we're supposed to be as Christ like as possible, why aren't we Jewish?"
So if you don't really feel like you belong to a specific branch of Christianity, yet still accept Jesus as at least someone special, where is the harm in raising your children in your wife's faith? They still have the chance to make up their own mind, as you did.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
yes, thats true. but would it cause dissention in the marriage if i was always incouraging the children to think for themselves and not accept anything without question while she tells them to have faith and believe without question?
Posted by Theaca (Member # 8325) on :
Raising your children Catholic, and becoming Catholic yourself, are two entirely different things. Your girlfriend should rightly desire that the children recieve a Catholic upbringing, including church on Sunday, Sunday school, the sacraments, etc.
You becoming Catholic is less necessary. You can still get married by a priest, or at least have a Catholic approved marriage, even if you don't convert. So long as you aren't purposely opposing the things she teaches the children. After all, you could always convert later on if you feel differently.
If you guys get to the point of getting engaged, you can have premarital counselling with a priest and he will or at least should go into your beliefs and hers and discuss areas in which they would clash and what you guys would do about that.
Catholics aren't trained to just accept everything without question. Questions are good.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I am more worried about y'all's relationship than about the children. If you do not truly respect her faith which is apparently a large part of her, then it is not respecting her. I think that can cause serious hurt.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by vonk: yes, thats true. but would it cause dissention in the marriage if i was always incouraging the children to think for themselves and not accept anything without question while she tells them to have faith and believe without question?
I'm not entirely sure those are mutually exclusive. I wasn't raised Catholic, but my mom was, went to Catholic school all the way until high school, was confirmed, the whol shebang. She and my father chose not to raise my brother and I religiously (and thus we became the black sheep of a VERY religious extended family).
But my mom was never taught to blindly accept everything in life without question. Isn't there a happy medium between free thought and questioning your beliefs and surroundings, and being devoted to your faith?
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:Raising your children Catholic, and becoming Catholic yourself, are two entirely different things. Your girlfriend should rightly desire that the children recieve a Catholic upbringing, including church on Sunday, Sunday school, the sacraments, etc.
You becoming Catholic is less necessary. You can still get married by a priest, or at least have a Catholic approved marriage, even if you don't convert. So long as you aren't purposely opposing the things she teaches the children. After all, you could always convert later on if you feel differently.
This is exactly what I came here to say. You can go to Catholic church every Sunday and not be Catholic if you want. You just can't take communion.
Posted by Theaca (Member # 8325) on :
I suppose I should add that my grandfather raised his five children in this manner. My grandmother, who was some protestant religion but didn't attend church, had no problems with most of his teachings and they had no real religious debates. After 50 years of marriage she suddenly desired conversion and is now just as fervent a Catholic as my grandfather. It's amazing. And my mom and her siblings didn't suffer at all in seeing their parents were not both Catholic.
My mother raised my brother and I the same way. My father was a Methodist who didn't really attend church, and watched her teachings. He went to mass every Sunday with us since Mom is blind. He converted by the time I was 10. They are both active Catholics now.
If my grandmother and my father had never converted, it wouldn't have mattered as far as our upbringings. It's wonderful that they did, with such joy and certainty, but wasn't necessary to our happiness.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by vonk: yes, thats true. but would it cause dissention in the marriage if i was always incouraging the children to think for themselves and not accept anything without question while she tells them to have faith and believe without question?
Good heavens! Where do you get the idea that is necessary to be Catholic! It really isn't. At all. Perhaps if you understood more about Catholicism, you would feel better about this.
Posted by Theaca (Member # 8325) on :
Kat, I don't understand, if he doesn't become Catholic he's not respecting her? How do you come to that conclusion?
Posted by The Wiggin (Member # 5020) on :
I once knew a couple where the husband was Catholic and the wife was Jewish. And the way it seemed to me was that the both agreed religon or some belife system was importent, I belive the way the worked was simular to what others have sugested which is that you don't fight over it you each just teach them your belifes and in you'r case she takes them to church (and mabey you go along to show you support her even if you don't particapate and just help corral kids)
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
I was probably wrong about the 'Catholics not asking questions' thing, and i resend that. But if my kids ever asked me questions about who wrote the bible or something about the history of the Church, i don't think my answer would please anyone who is Catholic. i think that my not being Catholic would cause a problem. I started thinking about this while i was reading Rebecca.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
No, if he thinks she follows blindly and without question, that's not respecting her. That's not a nice thing to think about someone.
My great-grandparents were different religions - one was Methodist and one was Catholic. I don't think it went well - my grandfather wanted nothing to do with religion, and my mother was determined to be the same religion as her husband because of the family experience.
Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
What I found my interesting about your initial post was this quote:
quote: Do we have to break up now?
I'm surprised this option popped into your head. Is religion the real issue here, or are you having second thoughts about the relationship in general? It just seems like such an extreme option considering you haven't even broached the subject with your girlfriend yet. Almost as if you are looking for a reason to call it off.
Of course, I have been known to look too much into words.
But, if I may, how old are the two of you?
Posted by Theaca (Member # 8325) on :
I don't think it would necessarily be that big a problem. Catholics don't take the Bible all completely literally. They have some different views on things. You guys could try to answer questions like that together, perhaps. Or, like I said, in premarital counselling. That can really cover a LOT of ground.
And I agree with Valentine.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I don't suppose letting the kids choose for themselves is a viable option?
Posted by The Wiggin (Member # 5020) on :
If you have trouble answering questions about religon and not causing a stink send them to your wife for the answers.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by vonk: I was probably wrong about the 'Catholics not asking questions' thing, and i resend that. But if my kids ever asked me questions about who wrote the bible or something about the history of the Church, i don't think my answer would please anyone who is Catholic. i think that my not being Catholic would cause a problem. I started thinking about this while i was reading Rebecca.
What are your answers to those questions? You might be surprised at what would "please anyone who is Catholic". Why don't you try them out here?
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
I am 23 and she is 26. The idea of breaking up did not come into my mind. it was her reaction when i initially told her. it was done with incredibly poor timing on my part and she responded with a "oh, well, i have to go now."
and Katherinia: i do respect her very much. that is just how i typically view faith: "i believe, no questions asked." i know this isn't technically true, its just how it translates in my tiny brain.
Premarital counseling is a great idea, i just don't know if we'll get that far (she has quite the temper) before something final is said. Thats why i'm here asking strangers.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I don't suppose letting the kids choose for themselves is a viable option?
I don't see how it could be. Raising a child as a Catholic (or any faith, inlcuding none at all) begins long before that child can choos for themselves.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
oooh, i don't know about that kmbboots, i don't want to turn this into a religious debate yet.
and of course the idea is that the children will have their own choice. but i want to be able to discuss their choices with them and show them all of the options without having to subvert what she is teaching them.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Vonk, I'm not talking about a religious debate, I'm just concerned that you may have some wrong ideas about Catholicism and you may be imagining hurdles that aren't really there. For example, Catholic doctrine about the Bible has a lot of room for interpretation. We are generally not strict Biblical literalists. Your opinion about who wrote the Bible may be the same as mine, and mine may not be the same as the next Catholic, and all three may be fine.
And answering questions about our sometimes despicable history is not anti-Catholic. Being Catholic doesn't mean thinking that we have always gotten it right.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:I don't suppose letting the kids choose for themselves is a viable option?
I don't see how it could be. Raising a child as a Catholic (or any faith, inlcuding none at all) begins long before that child can choos for themselves.
My parents let us choose for ourselves. They made different options available and let us choose.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Kmbboots -- are you disagreeing with me? Because I don't see anything contradictory between what I said and what you said.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Actually, I don't think that's entirely true, mph. Raising a child to understand that all faiths have something to offer, giving them exposure to many faiths, and encouraging them not to make that choice until they are 'adults', *is* an option.
I do think that vonk needs to do some thinking as to what the particular problem he has with Catholicism is, so that when he has this discussion with his girlfriend, he can clearly articulate what the problem is. For instance, if, as possibly seems to be the case, he just doesn't want to raise the children to believe something that he himself doesn't believe, then this to me begs the further question of 'why'. What do your beliefs, vonk, have to offer over Catholicism such that the children should be raised with your beliefs? Negatively, what would the beliefs of Catholicism do to the children that not having any concrete beliefs would not do? These questions are things that I would, perhaps, give serious thought to.
I certainly believe that mixed-faith relationships can work, so long as the values are shared. I do think that it's a bit much to ask someone to choose between their faith and their love for you, or vice versa. Ideally, it's something that both parties could accept about the other, realizing that for all intents in purposes, it didn't matter, and just live with the surface differences with the understanding that because the core values are the same, everything can work out.
It's interesting to me that so many people who very strongly believe that anything in a relationship can be talked through are so quick to put faith into a category of something that is beyond compromise. I don't believe it, and I wish you all the luck in the world, vonk.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: Kmbboots -- are you disagreeing with me? Because I don't see anything contradictory between what I said and what you said.
I read your post the same way, mph. So, maybe you should elaborate.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Infant baptism is very important in Catholicism, and parents make some pretty serious vows to raise the child in the Catholic faith in doing so.
I'd say you two have a lot of discussion to do. I applaud you for not going through a conversion without believing what you would be promising to believe.
If you have no problem with her really raising the children Catholic, this could work. I'd recommend talking to a priest to see exactly what this entails. But if you can't agree to everything necessary - which doesn't have to include you not telling the children your beliefs about the Bible - then it would be best to call this off now. This is assuming that raising the children Catholic is as important to her as you have stated here.
Good luck figuring it all out. Total honesty with each other and vigorous, honest investigation of what is entailed with doing this will suffice.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Kmbboots -- are you disagreeing with me? Because I don't see anything contradictory between what I said and what you said.
Not necessarily. I just wanted to assert that it is possible to raise faith-filled children without choosing a particular "brand" for them. I have been "religious" as long as I can remember, but I wasn't baptised until I chose to be at fourteen.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Actually, I don't think that's entirely true, mph. Raising a child to understand that all faiths have something to offer, giving them exposure to many faiths, and encouraging them not to make that choice until they are 'adults', *is* an option.
Again, I don't see where you disagree with me.
I'm saying that if you want to raise a child to be Catholic, you're going to have to start before that child can have any say in it.
Likewise, if you want to raise him to be not Catholic, you will have to start just as early.
If you want to raise your child so that they will be open to all faiths and decide later as an adult, you will still need to start that before the child is too young to choose.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Thanks for the elaboration, mph. I think I see what you are saying now, but I think that there is a distinction to be made between values and faith. Of course children are raised with some values and don't get to choose some values, but I think the specific question we are discussing right now seemed to be, can't children choose their faith?, which they can. I think it's like teaching someone how to drive and telling them where they are going to end up, versus teaching them how to drive and letting them pick their destination.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Dag:
quote:Infant baptism is very important in Catholicism, and parents make some pretty serious vows to raise the child in the Catholic faith in doing so.
I was told the exact opposite in a class preparing to become a god parent. In fact, I was told that the Catholic church no longer considers it important to baptise infants at all.
I was raised to believe what you posted. That it's critical. But the instructor flat out told us no. Anyway, I recall everyone in the class being very confused by the whole thing.
vonk:
I think you need to have a frank discussion with your gf to decide exactly what her views are on the subject.
I mean, it's possible she wouldn't even marry you if you don't convert first, let alone have children with you. It all depends on her POV.
I have seen this sort of thing work, and I've seen it be a huge problem. The major difference in outcome appears to be communication. In all things marital, it's a lot easier if both partners can count on each other to mean what they say, do what they say, and have the best interests of their spouse and offspring uppermost in their minds.
If you really believe that you would undermine whatever she teaches the kids, then you'd be better off confronting that issue and talking it through than actually doing it without warning.
Good luck.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Storm --
In general, what you said makes sense. However, are some values that are pretty much inseperable from the faith they belong to.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
In all seriousness, I would be very interested in reading an elaboration on that statement, mph. Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Of course, it's cool if you don't want to bother with it right now, too.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Storm --
In general, what you said makes sense. However, are some values that are pretty much inseperable from the faith they belong to.
I am Catholic, but I wasn't raised Catholic. My sisters and I were raised with what I assume were similar values. Two are Catholic, one is Methodist, one is UCC, one seldom attends church.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:I was told the exact opposite in a class preparing to become a god parent. In fact, I was told that the Catholic church no longer considers it important to baptise infants at all. I was raised to believe what you posted. That it's critical. But the instructor flat out told us no. Anyway, I recall everyone in the class being very confused by the whole thing.
There used to be a widespread belief (never official doctrine, but taught by many influential church teachers) that unbaptized infants go to hell, or possibly limbo, which might or might not be a nice place.
Your instructor may have been referencing that belief, which is no longer taught much.
quote:In addressing the Bishops, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is fully confident that, as part of the mission that they have received from the Lord, they will take care to recall the Church's teaching on the necessity of infant Baptism, promote an appropriate pastoral practice, and bring back to the traditional practice those who, perhaps under the pressure of comprehensible pastoral concerns, have departed from it.
quote:1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called.50 The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.51 1251 Christian parents will recognize that this practice also accords with their role as nurturers of the life that God has entrusted to them.52 1252 The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole "households" received baptism, infants may also have been baptized.53
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Thanks Dag. Once again, you are a (baptismal) font of knowledge.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Whereas my views on Baptism differ from that. Most of the Catholics I know do not believe in limbo. And I am appalled by this:
quote: The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.
How can anyone deny a child the grace of being a child of God? Hasn't God loved each of us and considered us His child since the beginning of time? Baptism is a sacrament instituted by God so that we can say "yes" to that.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Most of the Catholics I know do not believe in limbo.
I know - my point was that Bob's teacher may have been reacting to a different reason for the importance of baptism than what's actually taught.
quote:How can anyone deny a child the grace of being a child of God?
"Grace" here is being used in a very technical sense. I don't think the quoted passage is saying that anyone is not a child of God, but that those who have not been baptized have not received a particular grace (sacraments all give grace).
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee:
quote:Most of the Catholics I know do not believe in limbo.
I know - my point was that Bob's teacher may have been reacting to a different reason for the importance of baptism than what's actually taught.
quote:How can anyone deny a child the grace of being a child of God?
"Grace" here is being used in a very technical sense. I don't think the quoted passage is saying that anyone is not a child of God, but that those who have not been baptized have not received a particular grace (sacraments all give grace).
I would say that sacraments are all a conduit of grace, but yes.
My point is that, while you and I differ on some doctrinal issues we are both "good Catholics". I get the impression that people's image of Catholicism is a good deal more narrow than it actually is.
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
Conventional wisdom is that Christian shouldn't marry non-Christians, because you'll be pulling in different directions. It sounds like this has started. If you can resolve that, surely you can resolve whether to send the kids to Sunday School.
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
Let me just strongly encourage you NOT to convert if you are only doing it for her, not because you truly desire it for yourself.
Warning: biased opinion coming! I do think it's helpful for both spouses to have the same beliefs, particularly if they're strong beliefs. If she's devoutly Catholic and you're emphatically not, it could cause a rift - if only in the sense that you won't be sharing a part of her life that is so important to her. If she's devout, it's truly a big part of what makes her who she is - and you won't be sharing that with her. I think that if you're going in the same direction and working toward the same goals, your marriage will be easier than if the things that are most precious to her aren't important to you (and vice versa).
It would be very hard for me to be a devout Mormon and my husband to not be a member, because of the time I spend at Church and the way my beliefs affect nearly every aspect of my life. The way I make my decisions is affected by my beliefs - so if hubby & I didn't share beliefs, it might make it more difficult to come to an agreement on important decisions. And having kids is the biggest thing to affect a marriage; if you're not on the same page as to how you'll make decisions regarding raising them, it could tear your marriage up. If you agree now to let her make those decisions based on her Catholic beliefs, you may later come to resent not having more of an input into those decisions.
I do think "mixed marriages" can work, if you have communicated early and continuously, and you agree on how to raise the kids - and stick to your agreement. But I also (in my biased opinion) think that the more you have in common with your spouse - the more you are "pulling in the same direction" - particularly in those areas that are intrinsic to your personalities and the way you look at the world, the stronger your marriage can be.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I'm biased too, in that I think religion is such an important part of who a person is, that I believe marriages should be within the same faith. That doesn't mean people who are of different faiths can't be happily married, I know many are, it just means that for me and my husband, it wasn't an option.
You say your girlfriend reacted very strongly to your bringing this up to her. I am getting the impression that her faith is very important and that raising her children in that faith means a great deal to her.
That means this could be a deal breaker for your relationship. If that's the case, it's best that it's out in the open and known now, and I applaud you for not pretending that all is well and waiting until after the marriage or even worse, after the first child's birth to make your feelings known.
I agree intensive premarital counseling is called upon here.
Posted by Theaca (Member # 8325) on :
quote:Originally posted by Belle: You say your girlfriend reacted very strongly to your bringing this up to her. I am getting the impression that her faith is very important and that raising her children in that faith means a great deal to her.
Actually, I was wondering the opposite considering that they have been dating a year and he knows so little about Catholicism in that amount of time. I thought perhaps her faith was something she didn't think about very often. Her reaction could have just been surprise. Suddenly her image of the Catholic wedding/Catholic family clashed with the reality of their situation.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
I will say that as a Jew that got sent to a Catholic high school, they are definitely not a bad bunch.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
I think that Theaca is probably closer to correct. She never really mentions her religion. I think we may not have discussed it because she knows i don't believe the same things, and she didn't want to get upset when i disagreed with her. Her ideas concering a Catholic marriage and family are very closely linked with her cultural heritage (she is Philipino). She feels like Catholicism is part of who she is and where she comes from. No doubt she believes it whole heartedly, but i get the feeling it is more cultural than that.
After my original post, we had a long conversation, at first very heated, but eventually, much more of a learning process. We both agreed that it is up to the child to decide who they want to be when they are old enough to decide. She agreed that teaching the child all of the options was a moral necessity, but still bringing them up in the faith is important to her. The problems we came to (and that we still have not resolved) are more concerned with answering the children's questions, ie: After a loved one passes away she says that they went to heaven, so the child will be able to cope better. The child then asks me, "is so-and-so in heaven daddy?" and i answer.... what? tell the truth (as far as i see it) that no, they are not in heaven, there is no heaven. they'r energy is all around us and creating new life every day. then the child is very confused, not able to adapt both views into their limited view of the world. or do i lie and say yes, because that is easier and then have to reveal the truth of what i believe when i feel they are old enough to understand it? i don't know.
we did discuss it, and we are both more comfortable with the situation now, but i still feel like it is far from resolved, and will come up again.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
I'm glad you guys are working some of this out. My boss sounds like you 10 years down the line. Atheist, married to a Catholic Philipino woman. They now have 2 lovely daughters and are very happy together. She doesn't force him to go to church, and he doesn't force his views on his daughters.
I do hope that if you don't want to lie to your kids about heaven that you won't lie to them about Santa either. For an Atheist, it should be the same thing.
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
I don't lie to mine about Santa. Whenever they ask me directly about Santa ("Does Santa really live at the north pole?" "Do reindeers really fly?" "How does Santa get in if we don't have a chimney?" "How does Santa get to all the houses in one night?"), I ask them, "What do you think?" They've come up with some interesting ideas. I've always said, "That's such a fun story." I've never been able to bring myself to come out and say (*SPOILER WARNING, PARENTS*), "There is no Santa," but they've sort of figured out that it's just a nice story.
You could do the same thing with religion - I wouldn't recommend lying, if they specifically ask what you believe; you could say, "Some people believe they're in heaven, and some people believe their energy is all around us and creating new life every day. What do you think?"
Or you could just go the easy route - "Ask your mother." Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
i like that... i have a feeling that will be the answer to a lot of questions, "ask you mother." and no, i wouldn't tell them that Santa is some creepy guy thats gonna break in the house. geez, that story freaks me out and i'm 23. hehe. i would use the flat truth on that one: "St. Nicholas was a really rich guy whose parents died leaving him all their money. He used the money to buy lots of kids lots of presents and then was killed for being christian (and that will happen to YOU TOO! haha, just kidding). now we honor his memory by giving gifts. we do it at this time of the year because a long time ago the leaders of the Catholic Church couldn't stop the people that lived around them from celebrating the Winter Soltace so they pretended that Jesus was born on that day to change what the party was about." haha, i wonder how the wifey would like that one.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
And my mom and her siblings didn't suffer at all in seeing their parents were not both Catholic.