In Star Trek, why are there so many female admirals, but there are very few female captains?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Maybe there are lots of female captains who are not starship captains--maybe they often serve in some other capacity.
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
Because Star Trek is a family film. When the captain goes down to battle the mutant tribbles on Zoricon Omega 3, he always loses his shirt. Can't do that with a female captain.
Or maybe it's a chauvinistic leadership vs management issue Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Because the men want to be captains and the females want to be admirals? Therefore, the men spend 20 years as starship captain, while women spend 10. That's the only explanation for why Janeway made it to admiral and Picard's still a captain. Because she wanted that promotion and he doesn't.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Because the men want to be captains and the females want to be admirals
Why?
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
I don't know, but I think out of TNG, DS9 and Voyager, Janeway was by far the worst captain. And by that I mean Picard and Sisko were great, and she was... ugh... :tries to block bad memories:
That doesn't explain anything, of course... Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Because there are significantly more freaky green alien chicks out there than there are freaky green alien studs.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
I haven't a clue. I was just suggesting a reason why it might happen. Not the "real" reason (i.e. why the writers made it that way), but the reason from the perspective of the reality inside the show.
Maybe the women want more power? Maybe the men want less bureaucracy and more adventure?
Or maybe we just happen to have seen a subset of the Star Trek universe that has more male captains and more female admirals than is typical in the rest of the fleet.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I think the real reason it was written that way was that they wanted male captains/leaders/adventurers, but they wanted to appear more PC so they made a lot of the admirals female. The admirals are more powerful than the captains in the universe, but the captains are definitely more important than the admirals in the storytelling.
Posted by calaban (Member # 2516) on :
What about the ratio of male redshirts to female redshirts?
Posted by Blayne Bradley (Member # 8565) on :
Janeway was an okay captain and made Admiral because she did first contact with more species then James T Kirk did, 9 years stuck in the Delta Quadrant surviving and doing one heroic task after another is worth the promotion.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Read Peter David "New Frontier" series. Female captains. Good ones.
Posted by IanO (Member # 186) on :
I think Porter hit the nail on the head. They wanted to create captains in the vein of Kirk. (Janeway, I think, was a successful female version. But I know others disagreed.) But, in general, they followed the Kirk formula, albeit with differing temperments. But for diversity, they used many women (and minorities, for that matter) as Admirals, etc.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:They wanted to create captains in the vein of Kirk.
I didn't see much similarity between Kirk and Picard or Sisko. I think it would be better to say that Star Trek as a whole was modeled after the Age of Exploration.
It is an attempt to capture the romantic fantasy of sailing the high seas and "discovering" new lands and cultures while avoiding the imperial tragedies of our past. As a result all of the captains are modeled in some respect on the great explorers of the age: Cook, Lewis, Franklin, Shackelford perhaps even Columbus. In our history there are lots of male models for the great adventurer, leader, scientist but there are no such women in our history. I think that this makes it very hard for writers and actors to make a female Starship Captain that is believable in the role.
I think female admirals were easier because they only made very brief appearances on the show so their characters didn't need to be fully developed.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
I was just thinking about all the female Star Trek main characters and the only one I can think of who really succeeds in being an adventurer/explorer is Jadzia Dax. Tasha Yar and Kira Nerys are successful as warriors but never really as explorers. Janeway was a reasonably successful leader but her character never was convincing as an explorer.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I have a theory that they promoted Janeway from captain to admiral so quicky just to get her off the bridge of a ship!
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I have a theory that they promoted Janeway from captain to admiral so quicky just to get her off the bridge of a ship!
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
She managed to get from the Delta Quadrant back to the Alpha in less than a decade, I'd say that was a worthy accomplishment. And she brought back a wealth of advances, technology from the future, the Delta Flyer, and tons of Borg info.
And there were a ton of male admirals. I can't remember all their names, but I'd say there was at least an equal ratio of female to male admirals in TNG. Though in DS9 the only one that really comes to mind is Admiral Ross, or the Admiral that tried to form a coup on Earth during the Changeling crisis.
And there were a bunch of female Captains. There was the female captain that Sisko and the Defiant talked to who actually died like a decade ago but because of some energy field her transmission was bounced through time. There was Captain Laforge of the Hera, Geordi's mother. Dr. Crusher became a Captain in "All Good Things"
Commander Dax regularly captained the Defiant when Worf and Sisko weren't. The real question is why weren't there more female captains on ALIEN ships. I never saw a female Klingon captain, or a female Cardassian captain, or for that matter a female Cardassian soldier. The only female I saw at all was Seska on Voyager and Zeeall who was Dukat's daughter.
The Romulans were the only ones to ever let women really have positions of power. And it's at this point that I realize I watched way too much Star Trek as a kid...
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: She managed to get from the Delta Quadrant back to the Alpha in less than a decade, I'd say that was a worthy accomplishment. And she brought back a wealth of advances, technology from the future, the Delta Flyer, and tons of Borg info.
I can argue that very little of that was due to her command abilities. A lot of it was just the result of fortunate circumstances and a good crew. The one event that made me lose the most respect for Janeway was in the episode when they were traveling through that long stretch of space with no visible stars or planets. The crew's morale was low, so what does the great leader Captain Janeway do? She locks herself in her ready-room until her first officer coaxes her out.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
I disagree with the basic assumptions here. As lyrhawn pointed out, there are quite a few female captains who appear on the show. I would even venture to say that the ratio of female to male captains is relatively close.
Also lyrhawn, Yar's daughter was the "commander" ie captain of a romulan ship, and the captain of the flagship no-less. All in all, quite a few female captains.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: [QUOTE] I think that this makes it very hard for writers and actors to make a female Starship Captain that is believable in the role.
Captain Janeway is clearly modeled after Odyseuss, the great warrior adventurer, I'd say she's pretty convincing as a captain, no?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Considering she was dealing with a green crew lost 70 thousand lightyears from home, AND ingetrated a crew of known rebellious traitors into a system of rules and regs that they were diametrically opposed to, I'd say she did a pretty good job.
Not to mention the overwhelming guilt she felt when she destroyed the Caretaker's station. She has to make a lot of decisions with little to no real backup, no contact from Starfleet, no help on the way, and only a large group of people questioning her orders and looking to her to get them home alive and in one piece.
None of the other captains had to deal with that kind of strain and stress, thus, I'd say she did a pretty good job. I'd say she especially did a good job dealing with the Borg and Species 8472. She got one tiny ship through a huge mess and with few casualties.
On the whole, as far as the alien species go, I commend the Romulans the most on gender equality. And in general on the makeup of their culture and military. They have women senators, women commanders, women in the intelligence community. The Klingon High Council has no women, or women in charge of ships, with the possible exception of the Duras sisters. And Vulcan women were just bitchy.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I think all the captains WERE kind of Kirk-ish.
I mean, Picard was still a ladies' man. He was just more gentlemanly than Kirk.
Sisko was still brash and whatnot.
And it's not like they could've made Janeway a ladies' man, although that might've improved ratings among 18-34 year-old males.
-pH
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Speaking of the woman-woman love, what was the hullabaloo about Jadzia kissing that woman who was her lover when she was Curzon? Was it really the first same-sex dealie on primetime? I doubt it...but I remember reading about it somewhere.
-pH
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH: Speaking of the woman-woman love, what was the hullabaloo about Jadzia kissing that woman who was her lover when she was Curzon? Was it really the first same-sex dealie on primetime? I doubt it...but I remember reading about it somewhere.
-pH
Was DS9 even considered prime time since it was syndicated?
I got the impression in that episode that it was just done for ratings.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Well, I kind of thought that, too.
But I remember reading some article about it before it aired that was all, "OMGZ HOW GROUNDBREAKING!"
-pH
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:She has to make a lot of decisions with little to no real backup, no contact from Starfleet, no help on the way, and only a large group of people questioning her orders and looking to her to get them home alive and in one piece.
This sounds startingly like Captain James Holden, of 2350 fame.
Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
I remember a fair share of female captains on various star trek shows. They were always just like one or maybe two episode characters.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:The Romulans were the only ones to ever let women really have positions of power.
The Klingons do have powerful women, but in the behind the scenes manipulative sense. As Lyrhawn said- the Duras sisters are the only example of this.
Oh, and the Borg.
Is there something to be said, here, that the evil people seem to have more prominantly written women in powerful positions? Hm.
I do think that our existing society does confine our writing, even if we try and imagine a totally equal society. Some characters we percieve as more male than others. When we say "captain of a starship" the image is a predominantly (although not entirely) male one. An admiral, in a more sedentary role, could be be either.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
I seem to remember a cross-dressing Ferengi. I'm not sure if cross-dressing is the correct term, since Ferengi females don't wear clothes. But this was a woman passing as a man. Like Yentl in Space.
And before Jadzia on DS9, Crusher fell in love with a Trill in a male host, who later had a change of hosts, this time female. There was a little girl-on-girl kissing action in that episode, but in the end, Crusher couldn't deal with the lesbian love angle, and cut her Trill friend loose.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Captain Janeway is clearly modeled after Odyseuss, the great warrior adventurer, I'd say she's pretty convincing as a captain, no?
No, I found the Janeway character to be completely uninspiring and barely believable. I think the failure of her character is the primary reason the Voyager was far less successful than either TNG or DS9.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Seven of Nine was the attempt to boost the series with a serious infusion of hot babe. What progress we will have made in the future, when women will prance around their space ships in skin-tight catsuits and high heels.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:Captain Janeway is clearly modeled after Odyseuss, the great warrior adventurer, I'd say she's pretty convincing as a captain, no?
No, I found the Janeway character to be completely uninspiring and barely believable. I think the failure of her character is the primary reason the Voyager was far less successful than either TNG or DS9.
Agreed.
Posted by TrapperKeeper (Member # 7680) on :
I believe it is because Star Trek is largely a social commentary by the writers. They want to paint a picture of a moral and social future utopia for mankind and to do that they contrast it with the current conditions on Earth today.
While women in the workforce has increasd dramatically, women in political and military positions of power are very rare. They just want to paint a picture of equality in the future, and to do that they overpopulate women in those roles.
Assuming your premise is correct.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Tante, the funny thing is that even though 7 of 9 was there for eye candy, she was also one of the most interesting characters at that point in the series. You're right about the clothing, though. I vaguely remember some episodes where she was wearing a starfleet uniform, and she looked so much better in it than in the catsuit and high heels.
Posted by Irregardless (Member # 8529) on :
Janeway was just horrible. For a competent female captain, see Rachel Garrett of the Enterprise-C (Yesterday's Enterprise, TNG).
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: I seem to remember a cross-dressing Ferengi. I'm not sure if cross-dressing is the correct term, since Ferengi females don't wear clothes. But this was a woman passing as a man. Like Yentl in Space.
And before Jadzia on DS9, Crusher fell in love with a Trill in a male host, who later had a change of hosts, this time female. There was a little girl-on-girl kissing action in that episode, but in the end, Crusher couldn't deal with the lesbian love angle, and cut her Trill friend loose.
I remember Crusher and her Trill love! But I don't remember them hooking up on-screen.
Maybe I was too young.
-pH
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:s there something to be said, here, that the evil people seem to have more prominantly written women in powerful positions?
I'm having a hard time thinking of any fictional strong powerful women who a sympathetic characters. The truly powerful women always seem to be witches.
Am I missing something, or is the good powerful woman a character we simply don't have in modern American culture.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Have you read A Song of Ice and Fire?
(I am of course referring to Daenerys Targaryen)
Edit: Thinking of my other favorite series, Hyperion, we have Aenea, who is a very powerful messiah figure.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shigosei: Tante, the funny thing is that even though 7 of 9 was there for eye candy, she was also one of the most interesting characters at that point in the series.
For sure.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Oh I really liked Captain Garett of the Enterprise-C.
Star Trek has a lot of "groundbreaking" episodes you might say. Television firsts. The kiss between Jadzia and the other Trill was the first was the first gay kiss on prime time, and the show used to air on prime time, so yes, that counts. Also remember the first interracial kiss on network television was on the TOS episode "Plato's stephildren."
And while it's true that 7 of 9 was a very interesting character beyond her role as Borg Sex Kitten, the niche she was trying to fill as robot turned human, was a niche already filled by The Doctor. His search for humanity was more interesting than hers at every junction.
Back to the "groundbreaking" thing. In the DS9 episode "Far Beyond the Stars" (which was one of the best in all of Trek in my opinion), it was one of the very very few instances in the 90's for a prime time show to use the N word. It had been used all the time in the 70's, but in today's world is more or less considered taboo, and isn't used. But they did, and it wasn't just for the hell of it, that episode had real meaning.
[ March 09, 2006, 07:23 PM: Message edited by: Lyrhawn ]
Posted by Will B (Member # 7931) on :
I think they have more female admirals for the same reason TV dramas love to have black female judges: it makes them look PC.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Having the illusion of PC, but avoiding the consequences thereof.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Fictional Strong women who were sympathetic Characters:
Xena Polgara Alia (Dune) Petra
and there are more.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at porter, but I gotta tell you, I'm getting some really weird agenda-y vibes from this thread.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Right, and if Star Trek had all male Captains and Admirals, everyone would be saying "Isn't this the 24th century? Where are all the female captains and admirals?"
It's a lose/lose situation, I'm glad they chose to go with the more realistic situation.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:Am I missing something, or is the good powerful woman a character we simply don't have in modern American culture.
I think that it is hard for a female character to be written without being boxed. One character may be strong, but may no exhibit equal characteristics. One may exhibit equal characteristics but may be "too masculine" and therefore Not A Real Woman.
Everyone woman on screen in analyzed rather more than every man in regards to her gender, and I think that tends to complicate things.
I can think of lots of believable, strong, sympathetic female characters, it's just they're always examined, and often found to be flawed. Of course they are.
m_p_h may have had an "agenda" in this thread, since he seems to know the answer to his question already, but I don't think it's a very important one. I agree with him in principal if not in word usage.
There either seem to be or are more female admirals in Star Trek because the equality of the society is an important part of the show and making small characters in powerful positions a colourful group is an easy way of showing that equality.
Star Trek's not exactly the most subtly or cleverly written show in the world.
I'm not sure Political Correctness really comes into it, since the whole Star Trek Universe is supposed to be equal, not to mention the Prime Directive, rendering it by definition what we call "Politically Correct".
In Science Fiction, PCness is somewhat of a moot point, because we cannot judge a different universe by what we consider our own standards of acceptability and reality.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I'm kinda wondering about the actor selection thing too. I mean, one the bros side you've got Patrick Stweart, Avery Brooks, and Scott Bakula. And on the ho..hole other side, you've got a third rate Katharine Hepburn.
Were I casting a show, I know that I'd empty column A before I'd even think about column B there. Which makes me wonder, is there a lack of female actors who you'd want to see playing the captain of a starship?
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
DS9 had the best female characters in Trek history. Kira Nerys is a fantastic leader who is probably more aggressive and militant than most of the other male leaders. People follow her not because she is "nice" or charismatic, but because she is unfailingly fair and courageous. Her deep religious faith also gives her a different sense of conviction which adds depth to her character.
Jadzia Dax is adventurous and relatively promiscuous, two qualities that are usually associated with men. She can beat Warf in a fight, swindle Quark out of money, and trade dirty jokes with Captain Sisko. She is often considered "one of the guys" and most of her friends manage to look beyond her beautiful exterior and have learned to appreciate the wise and mercurial symbiant in her belly.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Alia (Dune)
Sympathetic? She was evil, evil evil!
quote:I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at porter, but I gotta tell you, I'm getting some really weird agenda-y vibes from this thread.
Well, I certainly don't know what that agenda is. Yeah, I have my own opinion about the topic, and it's but that's hardly an agenda.
As has been said by many others, it is much more difficult to write daring, adventerous female characters than male characters. In TNG especially, I think that they could pretend like they were depicting a truly equal society but without having to take the risk of writing characters like Kira or Jadsia.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Jadzia was way better (and hotter) than that other chick who replaced her, the short-haired one. Ezra? Ez...E-something.
Whatever. Team Jadzia.
-pH
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Ezri.mei'im Hashem . . . Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Strong Female Characters-
Delenn (Babylon 5) Buffy Willow Veronica Mars Abbey Bartlet (The West Wing) Tamora Pierce is a very popular YA writer who only writes strong female characters. Phedre in the Kushiel's Legacy series
And these are just in the fandoms that I'm currently obsessed with
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:Captain Janeway is clearly modeled after Odyseuss, the great warrior adventurer, I'd say she's pretty convincing as a captain, no?
No, I found the Janeway character to be completely uninspiring and barely believable. I think the failure of her character is the primary reason the Voyager was far less successful than either TNG or DS9.
Agreed.
Well guys, I think there your problem is with the concept of the show. No captain in her right mind would persevere in the face of all the obstacles voyager faces, and waste SO MANY chances on the road home. Yet this is a conept issue, since the show has to take us through an adventure EVERY week. Picard would have become just as hackneyed if he hadn't been refreshed by solid moral victories at least every 3 episodes. Remember episode 1 of voyager? Janeway was much more captainic at the beginning, but things did devolve as the show jumped the shark after season 3.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
blacwolve,
The problem isn't a lack of strong female characters, it's a lack of powerful leader female characters. By powerful, I mean having power or authority over others. While Buffy, Willow, and Veronica are strong women, they are not power brokers. I don't watch West Wing so I can't comment on Abbey. While Delenn of Babylon five is a power broker on her own planet, her role on Babylon Five (and thus her primary role in the show) is as an ambasador. As such she does not have authority over the other lead characters in the show.
If you look at the women in fiction who are power brokers, who have the authority to command other people and the power to make far reaching decisions, very very few if any of them are sympathetic characters. We seem to be far more comfortable with the wicked witch.
Orincoro, I don't think the problem with Voyager was the show concept.
Picard started out as a very distant, rather aloof somewhat unsympathetic captain, but as the show progressed and his character developed both the members of his crew and the audience developed a deep loyalty to him. In the final episode, it was clear why the members of his crew were willing to take such great risks for him.
Janeway was never able to inspire that kind of loyalty. Her crew followed her through some very unpopular decisions, but as an audience member I could never really understand why. The material was there, but Janeway just never filled the shoes. If Janeway had been assymilated by the Borg, who would have shed any tears?
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
Star Trek has always tried to be progressive. Back in the Original series, you had as the elite bridge crew Sulu (Japanese/Asian, despite WWII with Japan, the recently ended Korean war, and Vietnam), Chekov (Russian, despite Cold War & Communist threat), Uhura (black female while MLK championed human rights), and Spock (a freakin' alien). For the time, with all the prejudices in existance, the show was remarkable. Of course, one could be cynical and say, "Hey, the white male farmboy from the Iowa was still the boss" but really the show was amazing for the time.
I think mph's question it just comes down to the usual stereotypes. In the Star Trek universe, the admirals are the desk bound administrators that Kirk/Picard so doesn't want to become. The captains are the soliders, explorers, and adventurers. It's easier for people to envision a female manager than a female scrapping it out with a Klingon for a dropped phasor.
On the other hand, has anyone noticed a plethora of movies lately with a female warrior as lead? Ultraviolet, Serenity, V for Vendetta, Electra, etc. The only qualification is she has to look good in latex, leather, or spandex. No guy out there wants to see someone who looks like the real Mulan cast as the female warrior type.
Edit: After reading my post, I have concluded that it is time to go home since it makes no sense. I will leave it though, just for kicks.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
What about Elizabeth Weir on Stargate: Atlantis? She's running Atlantis, and she's convincing enough as a leader that I'm not surprised when people follow her orders.
The main character in Wyrms could be argued to be a powerful woman, though if I recall correctly, her family had been demoted to advisors rather than rulers.
Tenar from the Earthsea stories Cersei from A Song of Ice and Fire
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
I haven't watched Stargate Atlantis more than once (I don't get Sci Fi channel).
The character in Wyrms is a very strong woman who theoretical holds a line of power, but with in the story she is not a power broker.
I haven't seen any of the recent women warrior movies. The current world situation has dulled my enjoyment of them. Women warriors have been around for at least a couple of decades but they largely seem to be loan warriors, not commanders of men. I can't think of a woman who played the kind of leader who men will willing follow to their deaths.
(I mean aside from the Helen of Troy type in which the woman is really worshipped idol and not revered leader.)
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Cersei from A Song of Ice and Fire
Again, evil. Even worse than the wicked witch.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Well, yes. Sorry, I guess I missed the fact that we're discussing good powerful women. Oops.
What about Galadriel? She wasn't a leader when the elves left Aman for Middle Earth in the First Age, but she certainly is the ruler of Lothlorien by the time the Fellowship meets her. And she's arguably the most powerful elf in Middle Earth at the time.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Galadriel is an interesting case because she is very clearly powerful and certainly aligned with good. At times however, she seems more mysterious than good. She is viewed as an elf witch. Its also implied that if she were allowed enough power she would become evil.
Still, Galadriel isn't really a sympathetic character. Shes not someone people are likely to look to as a role model or someone that you like to go on vacation with.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
The Lady of the Lake/Mistress of Avalon.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Galadriel is very compassionate to people who she deems worthy of it. Such as Frodo, and other members of the Fellowship, even Gimli at a time when the relations between Elves and Dwarves was not so good. Lorien's borders, just like any other Elven borders, are heavily guarded, and intruders are not suffered to pass, regardless.
Besides, everyone who called her an Elf Witch was from a race that held some sort of fear of Elves. Men fear them inherently, but are also bitter towards them, so of course they are going to speak ill of them. And from what I can tell of the One Ring, ANYONE who claimed it for themselves would be corrupted towards evil.
And I'd LOVE to go on vacation with Galadriel.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Galadriel is an interesting case because she is very clearly powerful and certainly aligned with good. At times however, she seems more mysterious than good. She is viewed as an elf witch. Its also implied that if she were allowed enough power she would become evil.
Still, Galadriel isn't really a sympathetic character. Shes not someone people are likely to look to as a role model or someone that you like to go on vacation with.
What about Eowyn? She displays courage, strength, and loyalty that rivals that of any male character. Only a handful of men in Middle-earth would have dared stand toe-to-toe with the Witch King, and (if the prophecy was true) none would have been as effective against him. Even Gandalf didn't take the Witch King lightly.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
LOTR is full of strong women. Luthien, Melian, Arwen, Finduilas, most of the mothers of the Edain from the First Age. The list goes on. I haven't read the Sil in awhile so I can't remember a lot of the Elven and names of the Edain, but there's a bunch.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:What about Eowyn? She displays courage, strength, and loyalty that rivals that of any male character.
Excellent point. And as she does it, it's mentioned that she's explicitly rebelling against her sex roles. Remember?
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
DIDN'T Janeway get assimilated by the Borg at some point? Or pseudo-assimilated? Who was it who gave them that virus?
Team 8472!
-pH
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Future Janeway was assimilated with the virus that destroyed the Borg Queen and her lair, or whatever you call it. But actual Janeway escaped back to the Alpha Quadrant, and I don't believe she was ever assimilated in any continuous story line, maybe in an alternate reality or something.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I vote for a series based entirely upon the charming antics of Species 8472.
Maybe they have strong, authoritative females.
-pH
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
You assume they have gender at all.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
What, so now it's not acceptable for a television show to depict strong, genderless individuals?
-pH
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Apparently it is, so long as they are interdimensional genderless individuals.
Not sure what the norm is there.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH: I vote for a series based entirely upon the charming antics of Species 8472.
Maybe they have strong, authoritative females.
-pH
I think you have a crush on species 8472. Admit it. Coommoooonnnn.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:LOTR is full of strong women. Luthien, Melian, Arwen, Finduilas, most of the mothers of the Edain from the First Age. The list goes on.
What did Arwen do besides sew Aragorn a pretty flag?
That's a serious question -- it's been a long time since I've read Tolkien.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
Um... She gave up her Elven birthright to be a trophy wife. *shrug*.
You see, I think what makes Eowyn special is that unlike most of Tolkien's "strong" female charcters, she didn't do it all just to live happily ever after with her dream guy. Sure she was throwing herself at Aragorn, but he wasn't the reason why she went into battle. She just wanted to protect the people she cared about, especially Theoden who was like a father to her. And of course, in the end, she ends up with someone other than Aragorn.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Well, she DID give up immortality for him, more of less sacrificing herself for love. I guess that might not make her a strong woman in some people's eyes, but it makes her stronger than many in mine.
Same story with Finduilas really, she sacrificed her life to marry Denethor, where she suffered greatly as his wife, and died from that misery. Give them some credit, it would have been very easy for Arwen to head to Valinor, and few would have faulted her for it. Finduilas could have left Denethor to go back to Dol Amroth, but stayed out of duty.
Eowyn gets extra points, but I attribute much of it to her upbringing. She was born into a warlike, almost feudal society. She was the daughter of the First Marshall of the Riddermark, sister to Eomer, Third Marshall of the Riddermark, and cousin to Theodred, who I believe was also the First Marshall of the Ridderkark (might have been Second). She was surrounded by strong male, military characters. It was much easier for her to want to ride to war with her brother and more or less adoptive father than most other female characters in Tolkien lore.
Quite frankly I'd say Luthien was more brave than Eowyn. She faced off against both Morgoth and Sauron, both in person, and died as a result (later returning to live as a human).
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Loathesome derailers! This is a Star Trek thread, not a Tolkien thread! There are fine degrees of geekdom here that allow me to appreciate discussions of the former but yawn through discussions of the latter.
So...
Why do all the Romulans have the same haircut?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Because they all use the same bowl.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:What, so now it's not acceptable for a television show to depict strong, genderless individuals?
There is a TNG episode where they encounter a species which has no gender... except for a few of the members of the species do have gender and, if discovered, they are tried and forced to undergo brainwashing therapy.
quote:Why do all the Romulans have the same haircut?
Lack of imagination.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: I think you have a crush on species 8472. Admit it. Coommoooonnnn.
It's true. They get me all hot and bothered.
Dear Species 8472,
Do you like me? Check one: __Yes __No __Maybe
-pH
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
One last Tolkien comment:
Okay, Luthien gets bonus points for facing Sauron and Morgoth, but she still only did it for her man. I'm not saying that that's a bad thing or that it detracts from her strength, but I thought that the modern image of a strong woman is one who is independent and doesn't need a man to be happy. I'm just saying that Eowyn is special because it wan't all about winning a husband for her, and facing the Witch King is almost up there with facing the Dark Lords. Even Gandalf feared him.
[ March 14, 2006, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: neo-dragon ]
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I think even with your qualifications, my two examples still hold.
****Minor Spoilers for Hyperion and A Song of Ice and Fire****
Dany Targaryen is a very powerful young woman, who is gaining power with every page of ASOIAF. At the current time she is ruler of a large city, with thousands upon thousands of followers. Plus, she's a very sympathetic character, one of the two heroes of the books (or as close to it as any character in the series).
And Aenea gains a lot of power over the course of Endymion and Rise of Endymion. Its hard to go into specifics on the circumstances of this without giving away serious spoilers though. She is also a very sympathetic character, with thousands of followers and considerable power.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by neo-dragon: One last Tolkien comment:
Okay, Luthien gets bonus points for facing Sauron and Morgoth, but she still only did it for her man. I'm not saying that that's a bad thing or that it detracts from her strength, but I thought that the modern image of a strong woman is one who is independent and doesn't need a man to be happy. I'm just saying that Eowyn is special because it wan't all about winning a husband for her, and facing the Witch King is almost up there with facing the Dark Lords. Even Gandalf feared him.
I see what you're saying, and I agree that Eowyn was a strong woman, but the fact is, she threw herself at Aragorn's feet more or less before riding off to war. The only reason she even rode to war with Theoden was because Aragorn rejected her out of his love for Arwen. And for anyone reading this, you should either be sure to read the Return of the King, or watch the ROTK cartoon, and not go by the Eowyn in the movies. I hated Eowyn in the P. Jackson movies, and felt a lot of it was a misportrayal of her real character.
Just because she earned her glory AFTER she was rejected by a man, as opposed to Luthien who earned hers in order to win her father's approval makes little difference to me. Besides, Luthien and Beren were in love, and accepted each other, the only person they had to win the approval of was her father. And considering Sauron was the only person the Witch King was actually afraid of, and that Morgoth was HIS boss, I'd say the Witch King ranks way below them on the scary as all hell scale.
Gandalf feared the Witch King, and Gandalf was one of the Maiar, which made him inherently more powerful than Luthien and Beren. Thus the danger scale of someone less powerful than Gandalf and more powerful than the WK I'd say makes it way more dangerous for Luthien than Eowyn.
Then again it's apples and oranges really when comparing the end of the Third Age to the end of the First Age. So far as my memory serves, I'd say Eowyn probably wins as the bravest woman of the Third Age. But she'd be ill equipped to deal with the dangers of the First or Second Ages.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
*points* Nerd.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I read excessive amounts of Tolkien in my free time
I just got finished with the first five of the Histories of Middle Earth that Chris Tolkien put together. And I've read the Unfinished Tales, and plan to read the Tolkien Letters soon.
And I prefer "geek."
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*offers Lyrhawn a chicken*
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Unless it's KFC, I won't have much use for it.
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH: Speaking of the woman-woman love, what was the hullabaloo about Jadzia kissing that woman who was her lover when she was Curzon? Was it really the first same-sex dealie on primetime? I doubt it...but I remember reading about it somewhere.
-pH
Here's the list (to my knowledge) of Star-Trek firsties.
-First black/white kiss between Kirk and Uhura (episode title "Plato's Stepchildren." Apparently they were both under the influence of some mind-altering something or other) -First girl-girl on-air kiss on network TV (as opposed to cable tv) in a DS9 episode between Jadzia and another trill host. Episode title was "Rejoined," aired 10/28/95. A later episode features the alternate reality Kira kissing Ezri Dax, but at this point, it's just old hat. Besides, the alternate universe Kira slept with ANYONE, male or female.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Yeah, alternate universe Kira was a skanky dominatrix, I think...
-pH
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
I liked her better than the regular Kira. The regular Kira was very uptight. Alternate Kira was a girl who knew how to enjoy herself.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I think regular Kira was a freak, too.
She was just a closet freak.
I bet she and that one Vedek got all kinds of kinky.
-pH
Posted by Irregardless (Member # 8529) on :
quote:Originally posted by BandoCommando: -First girl-girl on-air kiss on network TV (as opposed to cable tv) in a DS9 episode between Jadzia and another trill host. Episode title was "Rejoined," aired 10/28/95.
I think both L.A. Law and Roseanne had same-sex kisses predating that.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Why are all the same-sex kisses on TV girl-on-girl?
Oh, never mind. Dumb question.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Christina Aguilera had a man-man kiss in that video!
With TONGUES.
-pH
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by BandoCommando: -First black/white kiss between Kirk and Uhura (episode title "Plato's Stepchildren." Apparently they were both under the influence of some mind-altering something or other)
bzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZ! I'm sorry, that is incorrect.
Their minds were their own. It was their bodies that were being controlled by the Platonians.
Nasty stuff, that kironide. Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: And considering Sauron was the only person the Witch King was actually afraid of, and that Morgoth was HIS boss, I'd say the Witch King ranks way below them on the scary as all hell scale.
Gandalf feared the Witch King, and Gandalf was one of the Maiar, which made him inherently more powerful than Luthien and Beren. Thus the danger scale of someone less powerful than Gandalf and more powerful than the WK I'd say makes it way more dangerous for Luthien than Eowyn.
[/QB]
Okay, I can agree with what you're saying about Luthien, but let's not split hairs about who was in greater danger. The fact is that Morgoth, Sauron, and the Witch King are all so powerful compared to a mortal or an elf that it's like debating whether you'd rather fight Superman or the Incredible Hulk. For a mere human there's really no difference since you're not in the same league as either. It's not like either Luthien or Ewoyn survived survived their situations due to might. It was more a matter of fate and good luck.
And that's the last I'll say about Tolkien since this is supposed to be a Star Trek thread.
[ March 15, 2006, 12:27 AM: Message edited by: neo-dragon ]
Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
In Star Wars a woman was leader of the rebellion. Mon Mothma. For all you non star wars freaks out there thats the woman in return of a Jedi who says "Many Bothans sacraficed there lives to bring you this information."
And Princess Leia had more political power than any other main character in the trilogy.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:n Star Wars a woman was leader of the rebellion. Mon Mothma. For all you non star wars freaks out there thats the woman in return of a Jedi who says "Many Bothans sacraficed there lives to bring you this information."
They say that she was a leader, but all we ever see her do is give a speach.
Also, how much political power do we ever see Leia use?
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
And despite Leia's political station and tough-chick attitude, she was for the most part a classic damsel in distress.
Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
True. But it was the only examples of chick in power I could think of.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
If you're only going from the movies, I might be willing to excuse that, but if you read all the EU stuff, that doesn't even come close to the truth.
Mon Mothma did a lot to bring the Rebellion into being and to keep it together. Leia wasn't always a fighter, though she was very capable in combat, but she was by far the most politically powerful force in all of Star Wars from the destruction of the Death Star on.
The classic damsel in distress sits in a tower screaming her head off. Leia was captured, saw her homeworld destroyed, was then brutally tortured by Darth Vader before being sentenced to death. Snow White never went through that.
She was a jungle fighter on Endor, and a leader and figther at Hoth, to say nothing of her successes on other planets. Besides, she was the one who went undercover to rescue Han from Jabba, so I guess that makes Han the damsel in distress.
What about Mara Jade? More than Mon Mothma I'd say she's probably the strongest woman (tied with Leia, or second to Leia) in Star Wars lore. She fought off the specter of the Emperor's Death and fought his will, then over the course of the next decade helped (indirectly) the New Republic defeat the Empire.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Contrast these to Padme.
She likes to gaze out of windows a lot.
-pH
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Depends on which Padme you mean. Padme from Episode I was bitchin. She was in firefights, and storming the castle and all that. I'd say as a whole she was the rebel and fighter that the mother of Leia probably should have been.
But they damselized her in the second and third movies pretty brutally. She was ridiculous in the third movie, in what I thought was the biggest waste of character that film had.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
And the first movie sucked the most.
Besides that, all of her strength was totally cancelled out by the staring longingly out of windows.
And, "*whimper* Anakin, you're breaking my heart!"
And...frolicking in the field in Episode II.
And....so many other things.
I hate Padme.
-pH
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
And it kind of bothers me MORE for Padme to be like that than it would have bothered me if women from the original trilogy had been like that.
I mean, seriously Lucas. The strongest female character in the prequels was probably that bounty hunter chick that Jango Fett hired and subsequently killed before she could give him up to the Jedi.
-pH
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
If you want to bring the EU into this, there's Jaina Solo, the so-called "sword of the Jedi". Personally, I dislike her but I suppose she qualifies as a strong woman. Before she was out of her teens she was a jedi knight and an ace fighter pilot.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Bleh. Jaina Solo really bothers me. I'm loathe to count the NJO as part of the EU, as far as I'm concerned, it only counts up to the Hand of Thrawn Duology.
And it IS possible to carry on a conversation without it turning into a Bash Lucasfest. Or at least, outside of Hatrack it is.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
But I waaaaanna bash Lucas. *whine*
Can I at least bash Padme some more?
-pH
Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
No. I loved the EU but luckily got out before NJO. Never read a single one and never want to. The Timothy Zahn books were the best. Both the trilogy and the hand of Thrawn duo. Leia is awesome in the trilogy and so is Mara Jade
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Padme bashing is totally okay by me pH, have at it. Lucas bashing gets on my nerves, and really makes no sense half the time. I don't go into P. Jackson bashing and Whedon bashing all the time, I don't see the necessity to bash Lucas, without whom, neither Whedon nor Jackson would probably have made either of their creations. At least respect what the man did right.
Penguin -
Lucky you .
There was SOME good stuff in the NJO. The Zahn, Stackpole and Allston books were really good. And Greg Keyes wasn't bad either. I liked the book with the battle at Tarkin's Fang (Ebaq 9 I think it was). And there was some cool stuff with the Jedi and the fighter squadrons. But 70% of it was extremely screwed up and boring.
I've yet to read the Outbound Flight book, but I think that could also be great. Other than that I dislike the pre-New Hope books too.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
Again, you loathsome derailers, Star Wars does not equal Star Trek.
Star Wars is some overblown, over budgeted Lucas fever dream of a series.
Star Trek is chintzy camp. There is no equating the two. I could blather on ad nauseum about Star Trek trivia with the rest of the geeks, but I found Star Wars to be as unwatchable as Lord of the Rings.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I was thinking last night -- if something happens off-screen, does it really happen?
I came to the conclusion that the answer is far closer to "no" than it is to "yes".
Which was Leiah; powerful leader in the Rebel Alliance or damsel in distress? Her role in the movie was damsel, so for the purposes of the story, that's what she is.
What are those ST:TNG female admirals; strong, motivated women near the top of the pyramid in a military organization or beurecratic foils for Picard to fight against? In the shows, their role was far more often the second than the first.
Similarly (is that even a word?), you can't build sympathy for a character by telling the audience what great things he's done off-camera. As far as the audience is concerned, if they didn't see it it didn't happen.
There are many stories where a main sympathetic character has done horrible, vile things, that if we saw, we couldn't bring ourselves to forgive. So the storytellers keep it off "screen" and have it merely part of the character's background.
BTW, let me point out that the person that started this thread has participated in more than one derailing of this thread and apparently doesn't mind.
edit: I switched "yes" and "no"
[ March 16, 2006, 12:34 AM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:And it IS possible to carry on a conversation without it turning into a Bash Lucasfest.
*Bart Simpson voice* Well, if you love Lucas so much, why don't you just marry him?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: Again, you loathsome derailers, Star Wars does not equal Star Trek.
Star Wars is some overblown, over budgeted Lucas fever dream of a series.
Star Trek is chintzy camp. There is no equating the two. I could blather on ad nauseum about Star Trek trivia with the rest of the geeks, but I found Star Wars to be as unwatchable as Lord of the Rings.
Overbudgeted? Have you not seen the original trilogy? Star Wars: A New Hope cost slightly more than an episode of Friends cost in it's final season. It was a low budget flick, you could have made more than 30 Star Wars movies in the 70's for what it cost Peter Jackson to make King Kong. And what was wrong with LOTR?
And Tom -
If only it were possible. He's worth three billion. Musta done something right.
Posted by Mabus (Member # 6320) on :
With respect....could someone tell me what was wrong with the NJO series? I enjoyed it immensely. There were a couple of books that felt more like kiddie lit, and I was disappointed how they backed down from the philosophical changes in the end, but it was a fun ride, at least.
Posted by BandoCommando (Member # 7746) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mabus: With respect....could someone tell me what was wrong with the NJO series? I enjoyed it immensely. There were a couple of books that felt more like kiddie lit, and I was disappointed how they backed down from the philosophical changes in the end, but it was a fun ride, at least.
Agreed. What I liked about the series is that they put you on edge at the beginning. ANYONE, and I mean ANYONE was up for grabs when it came to death because of the events of the first book in the series.
However, some books were a complete waste of time where nothing important happened.
As you say, though, Good ride.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:He's worth three billion. Musta done something right.
In a word: licensing.
Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
In regards to the NJO series I heard down the grapevine that a lot of major characters got axed and that just makes me sad. More realistic but still sad.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Similarly (is that even a word?)
I do believe that it is.
quote:BTW, let me point out that the person that started this thread has participated in more than one derailing of this thread and apparently doesn't mind.
Yeah, I know. My tongue was in my cheek. I was just being a brat.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
OK then.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mabus: With respect....could someone tell me what was wrong with the NJO series? I enjoyed it immensely. There were a couple of books that felt more like kiddie lit, and I was disappointed how they backed down from the philosophical changes in the end, but it was a fun ride, at least.
I liked the NJO too, but I understand why some SW fans couldn't put up with it. It's very different. It's darker (heros die), the Vong are an unusual enemy with unusual "tech" (for Star Wars, at least), a lot of the focus is taken away from the movie characters in favour of the next generation. It just wasn't some people's cup of tea. On the other hand, a lot of fans loved it. In fact, the haters are probably just a vocal minority considering that the series sold pretty well as I understand it and Del Rey seems to be proud of it. I'm looking forward to May when the "Legacy of the Force" series begins. It's going to be 9 books released over 3 years, with 1 hardcover per year. In other words, a similar format to the NJO, but shorter. 19 books was really more than was needed anyway.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: But they damselized her in the second and third movies pretty brutally. She was ridiculous in the third movie, in what I thought was the biggest waste of character that film had.
That's saying ALOT isn't it.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH:
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: I think you have a crush on species 8472. Admit it. Coommoooonnnn.
It's true. They get me all hot and bothered.
Dear Species 8472,
Do you like me? Check one: __Yes __No __Maybe
-pH
Dear pH,
So is that like, pH phat? or what?
Sincerely Species 8472
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH: And the first movie sucked the most.
Besides that, all of her strength was totally cancelled out by the staring longingly out of windows.
And, "*whimper* Anakin, you're breaking my heart!"
And...frolicking in the field in Episode II.
And....so many other things.
I hate Padme.
-pH
:::Slaps pH:::
Get AHOLD of yourself!!! Your talking crazy talk!!!
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: Loathesome derailers! This is a Star Trek thread, not a Tolkien thread! There are fine degrees of geekdom here that allow me to appreciate discussions of the former but yawn through discussions of the latter.
This whole diversion started because I pointed out that while StarTrek has few if any women who are sympathetic but powerful leaders, the same can be said for virtually all of western fiction. This then lead to discussion of whether female characters in Tolkien, Star Wars, etc filled that bill. Is that derailment or legitimate evolution of the original topic.
I will add, that none of the characters anyone has named yet really fill that bill in my eyes. There are strong women who are sympathetic characters, and there are powerful women leaders who are "Good Guys". But I still haven't found a powerful woman in fiction who is genuinely a sympathetic character.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
What sort of male character would you use an example Rabbit?
As for the NJO -
I thought a lot of it was useless. Some of them were fantastic books though, and I loved the relationship between Droma and Han, but I really didn't like how long it took the Solo family to get themselves back together. I enjoyed much of the series, but I think it dragged heavily in some areas, and they could have cut quite a bit of the bad books out and I could have saved six bucks a book. I also really liked Droma explaining the history of the Sabacc cards, which I firmly believe will be the next Texas Hold 'Em once they get the technology to make it real. I think they spent way too much time beating the crap out of the New Republic, and quite frankly I thought it was a little silly when Cal Omas starting talking about new names for the new government and basically reformed it into a galactic version of the US Government.
I liked it when it first started out and they were testing new tactics against the Vong, and the Jedi were on the front lines, but then it dragged like crazy until the New Republic FINALLY starting fighting back, and then it was mostly good until the end. I'm curious as to how it will play out in the new continuations, but whether or not I read much of it will depend on how far "out there" it starts to get, and who the writers are.
Tom -
Licensing alone can't make you wealthy, you have to have something to own the rights to, and that thing is Star Wars, which he created and made popular. Can't really deny that fact. Attack the prequels all you want, everyone, go for it. But at least recognize what he did right, recognize how he changed the face of the movie industry, and continues to do so.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: As for the NJO -
I thought a lot of it was useless. Some of them were fantastic books though
Yeah, the problem with the NJO is that it was too long. Even though I found the series as a whole to be pretty good, they really could have trimmed the fat and made it even better. I think that's why the Legacy of the Force is only 9 books.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Probably a smart move. When you consider that from the first post ROTJ book to the Thrawn Duology was what, maybe 50 books? And that covered some fifteen years. The NJO was something like 30 books, and it only covered a couple years. Way too much material for so short a time span.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Crazy talk? No! Padme sucks!
Anakin sucks too, until the third movie, when he magically becomes hot and troubled and gets that sweet bod.
Jango Fett also sucks.
-pH
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:I will add, that none of the characters anyone has named yet really fill that bill in my eyes. There are strong women who are sympathetic characters, and there are powerful women leaders who are "Good Guys". But I still haven't found a powerful woman in fiction who is genuinely a sympathetic character.
You've still not addressed my two examples. Are you not familiar with them? If you are, could you explain why they are not both powerful and sympathetic?
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH: Crazy talk? No! Padme sucks!
Anakin sucks too, until the third movie, when he magically becomes hot and troubled and gets that sweet bod.
Jango Fett also sucks.
-pH
Away from me vile creature! Padme was mega hot in the second movie, the third movie was a sham, they greased anakin up with cocoa butter. Its all a fraud.
How can say such hurtful things about Jango? How?
:::solitary tear:::
Species 8472 is dumping you. They told me to pass it on.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
BTW, I accidentally swapped "yes" and "no" in my previous post. I guess it didn't make much sense with those wrong.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I liked the Boba Fett story I'd read in the EU books. The whole clone thing I found a little silly.
Posted by 0range7Penguin (Member # 7337) on :
I still love how in the EU bobba was all like "being dropped into the belly of the sarlac can not defeat me!" and got out again. It was reverse hero immortality. Except Bobba Fett was more neutral, he wasnt actually a bad guy he was just doing his job.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Boba Fett fights for the forces of sexy.
Everybody knows that.
And it would've been even sexier without that Jango moron. And Padme wasn't all that hot in Episode II; she just had a nice stomach which was exposed when her white outfit was accidentally torn in a very fashionable manner.
-pH
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
And Species 8472 can't dump me! They said they loved me!
I LET THEM GO TO SECOND BASE!
-pH
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH: And Padme wasn't all that hot in Episode II; she just had a nice stomach which was exposed when her white outfit was accidentally torn in a very fashionable manner.
-pH
What isn't sexy about that???? It just kept ripping!!! Now it was no Princess leah in the gold bikini....
And about that, Boba Fett is a CLONE of Jango, they look EXACTLY the SAME!!!
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH: And Species 8472 can't dump me! They said they loved me!
I LET THEM GO TO SECOND BASE!
-pH
MUAHAHAHAHAAAA Your Galaxy will be purged of beautifull women!!!
Second Base?... Really what were you expecting except for galactic ruin
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Species 8472 is more of a dominatrix, all of your base are belong to them.
Or they dump you.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Species 8472 has no safeword...
"No, seriously ok.... No seriously... SERIOUSLY!!!!"
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
![[Blushing]](graemlins/blushing.gif)
They get me all hot and bothered.![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Cry]](graemlins/cry.gif)