So, Valorie (Baby Dot) just turned one and she's developed a habit we need to break, but we're having a hard time doing it.
When she's being held, she thinks it is the height of comedy to slap her Mom or me. We tell her to stop, we try to explain that this isn't how we treat other people, we've tried saying a definite "No" each time, and have even tried baby time outs. The little squirt just giggles, chuckles and smacks again.
She's not hurting us by any means, but we want to stop this early on. Any suggestions?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
This is probably terribly archaic, but whenever she smacks you, smack her back. Not enough to hurt her -- just enough to make it uncomfortable. She's probably not old enough to understand that if she doesn't like it others won't like it, but she is old enough to understand that something unpleasant happens to her when she does it.
Posted by Maria (Member # 9209) on :
I agree with the corporal punishment, but please turn her over on your knee and spank her bottom, not hit her face or anything!
If you let her hit you, she'll hit other kids, too. It's best to get the belief instilled early that pain can result from not listening. If you wait past two years old, it's a bit late, then.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
I disagree, Mr. Porteiro. Smacking a child shouldn't be necessary.
Sopwith, make sure that you and everyone who handles your child never treats the smacking as "cute". It's not cute at all. What I would do is say "OW!" loudly. Then I would follow that up with the definite NO while restraining her hands firmly but gently. She's a little young for time outs and explanations. If the NOs don't work, then I would put her down immediately. Tell her that you won't hold a baby who slaps you. "It's not okay to slap". Do this consistently. If she wants to be held, she'll learn very quickly that slapping gets her the exact opposite of what she wants.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
My sister had a similar problem with her daughter at the same age. My sister slapped the back of daughter's hand. Not enough to cause pain, but enough to be noticeable and abrupt. It worked like a charm. Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
I'm actually disturbed that the first two bits of advice are about coporal punishment. It's a rather extreme tool in the disciplinary toolbox. There are lots of things that work without the trauma of being hit by your parent, if you can figure out what's really happening.
In this case, the child thinks what is happening is a game. Therefore, the logical way to discipline is not to play.
Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
We have tried gently popping her on the hand and even a quick spank. She thinks it is hilarious, and will generally pop you right back afterwards. So we've quickly figured out that corporal punishment, at least in this case, could just reinforce the idea that hitting is normal. So, we've ruled that out in this instance pretty quickly.
(It could also be that at this stage, neither my wife or I can bring ourselves to pop her hand or butt enough to cause any pain to her. I know it's tough for me.)
We do believe in corporal punishment in certain cases, but this is just a tricky one.
Jenny, we've tried that, but it doesn't seem to make much of an impact on her.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Perhaps holding her hands or giving her something to occupy them?
Or, maybe, give her an alternate to smacking you. Take her hands and have her pat-pat your shoulder or something. Make sure to tell and show how much you like the positive behavior while totally ignoring the slapping. It sounds like she enjoys the attention of the slapping game. Time to teach her a more acceptable one.
Or, if the slap sound is what she likes, "Gimme Five" is a great socially acceptable slap-game!
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
If she's laughing at your spanks, then you're playing with her, not spanking her.
I don't think that corporal punishment is "rather extreme", especially for children who don't understand enough to be reasoned with at all.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Children CAN be reasoned with, but you have to do it at their level. I'm rather proficient in toddler-ese. The only times I've felt it necessary to spank were when my daughter tried running out in the street (a matter of life and death) and when she was caught lying (a matter of trust). And, in our family, a debriefing of sorts always follows discipline.
Also, corporal punishment doesn't work in a lot of cases. It teaches that bullying is the way to have power. For some kids, it makes them more defiant and they WILL laugh, even if they are hurting.
I prefer to approach discipline in a teaching and problem-solving fashion. It has worked well historically with all ages of kids (I'm a teacher who has taught preschool to high school). I try to see the situation through the child's eyes and work from there.
In my opinion, Dot is trying to interact with her parents in a way that usually gets a strong response. Therefore, I suggest ignoring the unwanted behavior and teaching a new, more fun behavior to replace it.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I would say "OW!" Very loudly and then tell her "No, that hurts Mommy."
Then put her down from your lap. If she cries to be picked up again, don't pick her up for at least one or two minutes.
She'll quickly learn that slapping means eviction from Mommy's lap and that's no fun. It may take some time, depending on her level of stubborness, but as Jenny said, if she wants to be held, she'll figure out that slapping means no getting held for a while and it will eventually sink in.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Also, corporal punishment doesn't work in a lot of cases. It teaches that bullying is the way to have power. For some kids, it makes them more defiant and they WILL laugh, even if they are hurting.
I completely agree.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Right, Belle. If Dot cries in frustration, the discipline is working. And I know you are good parents and will continue to show how much you love her when she chooses not to slap. Just remember that the strict bit of parenting is also love. And as she grows, you can help her learn that hurting people isn't okay. She will learn not only to stop hurting others, but in time will stick up for herself as well. You'll have modeled that for her.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Another aspect of discipline - when a child can see how his or her actions directly influence relationships, then they learn that they have choices and power. I see a parent's job not as one of asserting power over the children, but as guiding them in how to use their innate power wisely.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I agree with mph. The idea of "spanking" has been blown out of proportion in North American culture to the point where people think that it's always the same as abuse. Let me tell you, I received corporal punishment as a child and I believe that I'm a better person for it! To this day you'll rarely hear me utter a curse word because doing so as a child in my mother's presence usually resulted in a few good lashes. Now I even laugh when I think back to those days.
Anyway, I've seen a firm slap on the back of a baby's hand do a world of good. Hard enough that she doesn't laugh, but not too hard. Adults are obviously a lot stronger than babies, so you really have to get the hang of not being too gentle or too rough.
Posted by Stray (Member # 4056) on :
So what happens when the kid figures out that slapping = being put down, and starts slapping people who are holding her when she doesn't want to be held?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
While I do think corporal punishment has its place, using hitting to teach a child not to hit seems . . . counterproductive.
I agree with Belle and Jenny. But expect it to take a while, and -- VERY IMPORTANT -- be consistent! You must respond by refusing to allow her to do it and putting her down every time (assuming you're not standing in the middle of the street or something ).
Expect this technique to take weeks. But it WILL work. And it will teach her something about the unacceptability of hitting people that corporal punishment certainly will not.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Stray, that's possible but unlikely. Most kids will squirm enough that it's uncomfortable for the adult holding them, and the adult will put them down. It's much more likely she'll figure out that slapping = Mommy doesn't want to be so close to me.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Patience is key here. No approach is probably going to give immediate results, as you've already found out because you've tried several things and she's still slapping.
It takes a lot of patience and probably a good bit of frustration to keep putting her down, and waiting a few minutes while she cries before picking her up again. We're wired to stop a baby crying the instant we hear it and if she's standing there crying and reaching up for you it's going to be hard not to pick her up again. But you must be consistent. If you give in and let her back up immediately and let her continue the slapping, you haven't helped her in the long run. You've only done what is easy and convenient for you - stopped the crying.
You need to be firm and consistent. If you can't take her crying right there in front of you, then put her in her crib for a couple of minutes. And consistent means you put her down no matter what. Even if it's feeding time and she's nursing or taking a bottle - if she slaps Mommy, feeding stops and she gets put down off Mommy's lap for 1-2 minutes. Then feeding can resume only if she doesn't resume the slapping.
Edit: I posted this before I saw Rivka's post so I'm basically repeating what she said. Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: While I do think corporal punishment has its place, using hitting to teach a child not to hit seems . . . counterproductive.
Think of it as a lesson in cause and effect. The idea is that the child makes the connection that hitting = unpleasant result. At an early age I doubt that the child will be thinking things like, "mommy's a hypocrite for hitting me and then saying that hitting is bad", or "if mommy hits me I must be allowed to hit other people".
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I think that quite often when it comes to discipline, the key is finding something that that particular child finds unpleasant. Pain doesn't bother some children. Being put down wouldn't bother other children. No one discipline will work for all children, and quite often one form of discipline won't work for one child all the time.
Stray's example *could* happen with certain children.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
[edit: to neo-dragon] Do you have kids? Because in my experience (because I have made the mistake of trying to use corporal punishment to teach a child not to hit), kids absolutely DO think (and from a very young age!), "If big people are allowed to hit me, I must be allowed to hit people smaller than I am."
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Neo, I've found that quite young children quickly pick up on the hypocritical concept. It's more a feeling of unjustness than anything else. For some, it leads to bullying behavior - I'm bigger than that other kid, so I have the right to spank/hit him if he does something I think is wrong. For others, it leads to being a people-pleaser - I have no chance against that person's power, so I'll do whatever they want. Both attitudes can be dangerous in the long term. You can witness the behaviors in preschool children quite easily. I can tell, in many cases, how children are disciplined by the way they behave. Cause and effect can usually be taught effectively and less harmfully than by using a form of hitting.
And like I said, I don't totally write off corporal punishment. But it has its place. It's kind of like a weapon of last resort. You don't use it or threaten to use it unless you absolutely must.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I don't have kids but I do have experience with kids... lots of kids... My mom did daycare. In any case I suppose it depends on the child and what age we're talking about.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
And whether you're a hawk or a dove, I suppose. Do you use sanctions, negotiations, or bombs? When do you think it's okay to use violence?
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
I agree with Belle...she wrote what I was going to on reading the problem.
Say OW! very loud, then put her down. When she cries to come back up, say "It's only fun holding you when it's fun holding you. Hitting isn't fun. So I'll hold you later, when it's more fun for me."
Taking care of yourself as a parent is critical, not just for yourself, but as modelling for your child. When she sees you taking care of yourself, she'll not only be learning what she shouldn't do, but also what she should do in taking care of herself. You're effectively teaching her how to deal with other children as well. Don't be surprised if one day you hear from her lips to another child: "It's only fun playing with you when it's fun playing. Keeping all the toys for yourself isn't fun. See you later." Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
I'm going to agree with Belle and jeni. At the extreme I wopuld put her in her room ( does she have a crib?) and firmly say "We don't hit. If you hit you need some time-out." (Agrressive bahviour is the only reason I would give a kid that small a time out.) I am trying really hard to sit on my hands about the "hit her back" comments.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
How is hitting her supposed to teach her that hitting is wrong? What that says to me is that it isn't wrong in general - it's just not in her best interest to hit people bigger than her, because they hit back.
Posted by aiua (Member # 7825) on :
I can't believe that no one's said this yet, but you have a beautiful daughter, Sopwith!
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Access to me is denied. Posted by aiua (Member # 7825) on :
I can't see the majority of posted pictures, but it worked this time! /obviousgirl
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
What a cutie!
The only thing I have to add is that a firm, loud "No!" is more effective than a "No hitting!" or "Don't hit." If the last word you say is the behavior you want to extinct, the kids tend to hear only that one. For example, saying "Walk" is much more effective than saying "Don't run." I also think that immediately putting her down should be very effective, but only if you do it every single time.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
I'm in favor of spanking SOMETIMES, but sheesh, I really don't think this is one of those cases.
I'd have to echo everyone else who said to say NO! and put her down EVERY time.
Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
Thanks for all the advice and keep it coming. We don't believe this is a spanking offense at this time (if she were hitting people for fun at say three or four years of age, then yes).
Like I said, my wife and I believe in some cases of corporal punishment but only for some of the most extreme things or things where serious and immediate reinforcement are needed (running out into the street sort of things).
And thanks for the comments on Val, I'm pretty partial to her myself.
Posted by dawnmaria (Member # 4142) on :
We've had very simialar problems with Leslie. She's 16 months now and since she's been old enough to hold herself up she's been actively trying to kill me. She used to bite me a lot. That's tappered off and it's more hair pulling then anything else. She'll also haul off and hit me in the head with whatever she has at hand. We've decided she gets overexcited easily and gets frustrated when no one is paying her the amount of undivided attention she thinks she needs. It's slowly getting better. I've started time outs in the big chair. Or holding her hands down by her sides and repeating "calm down" in a calm, gentle voice. I did have to smack her hand though to get her to stop trying to get into the fire place. I felt that was worth a smack. I can't block it off any more then it is now so she has to understand it's dangerous. I think she's getting better, slowly. It is cosistency for sure. It's a full time job!
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Immediate danger (or repeated attempts to do something dangerous) is one of the things that does necessitate physical intervention -- in whatever form is necessary!
As Jim Fay put it on one of his tapes, you don't tell a kid who is playing in traffic, "Well, you have two choices. You can be flat, or can be round." Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
If the kid slaps you while she is being held, tell her "No" or "No slapping" and put her down. If she wants to be held again, you can pick her up again, and if she slaps again (or tries to slap, or even feints a slap to test you to see what will happen), down she goes.
For goodness sake, don't reason with her -- at one year old, it is unrealistic to think that will do any good. Slapping her lightly may reinforce the behavior, and slapping her hard enough to cause her pain is probably something that you don't want to do and that is of dubious value in modifying her behavior. You want to reward her for being nice while being held. The reward is the holding. The consequences of slapping is that the reward is withheld.
Behavior modification works, and it is not cruel.
Good luck.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I just wanted to chime in support on the things rivka, belle, jeniwren, mrsm, romanylass, and jenny gardner...from someone who worked with parents in parenting techniques and has seen success with things similar to what they suggested.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
When Ems went through that, we said, "No hitting!" very firmly, and put her down and walked away, signifying that we refused to be around her when she acted like that. (Same thing worked wonders when she started biting me while nursing.) If she followed me, I would make a very sad face and tell her, "When you hit Mommy, it hurts. I can't be around you when you're going to hit me."
Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
It's *hard* to ignore a crying child, especially one as young as Sopwith's daughter. Oh, it's ever so hard.
But really important, sometimes.
I'm still trying to teach my son (eight years old) to ignore people who are being mean to him. Maybe I didn't ignore him often enough. Heh.
Interesting point: ignoring (or with-holding attention from) dogs corrects undesirable behavior, too. And is also *hard*.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
'Specially when you've got an aggressively friendly dog.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
quote:As Jim Fay put it on one of his tapes, you don't tell a kid who is playing in traffic, "Well, you have two choices. You can be flat, or can be round."
THE most effective antidote/preventative I've found for traffic is "Look at Mr. Squirrel" (it could be any animal. When you make your kids look at cat brains smeared across the road a few times, they stop running into traffic.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*nod* Yup, roadkill is a great teaching tool. At least once the kid gets to a certain age.
But it doesn't work if the kid is trying to run into the street right now.
Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
Wow, some great advice on the subject and also the roadkill one... that's a bit gruesome but sometimes a visual aid like that might set it in stone.
Heck, any other advice on baby-raising?
(P.S. New baby pictures available at the link...)
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
Jess is starting to encouter this problem with Ella. We'll have to use some of this advice.
Posted by solo (Member # 3148) on :
When my kids went through this, we would firmly say "No!" after a smack (or occasionally a pinching grab of the face) and then we would take their hand and gently stroke our cheek and say "gentle". It took a week or two for both kids, but it did seem to work.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I think Jenny Gardener gave some very good advice, and I would try that. However, I do not think corporal punishment = bad parenting. There are behaviors for which I will spank. And I disagree with the notion that it's hypocritical to spank a child for hitting. That's absurd. Is it hypocritical that we lock up kidnappers? Are we encouraging the behavior by modeling it? When we give parking tickets, are we teaching the lesson that it's okay to steal? No. Hitting is almost the only thing that I will spank for, and the lesson very plainly is This is what it feels like to be hit, so if you don't like it, don't do it. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, and it's fine if you don't. For one thing, different children respond to different things, and so just because you have found something that works for you child doesn't mean it will work for someone else's. If there is one thing I have learned as a parent (Yes! I have children! So enough of this "When you have actual kids you will know better" nonsense.) it's that there is no "one size fits all" approach.
quote:I can tell, in many cases, how children are disciplined by the way they behave.
I'm sure you think you can, but, frankly, I doubt it very much.
EDIT: Actually, I meant to say Jenny Gardener.
[ March 16, 2006, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: Icarus ]
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
My feeling is that I can discipline my children effectively without spanking them, so why spank them?
Spanking isn't wrong, it just isn't for me.
Posted by sweetbaboo (Member # 8845) on :
My feeling is that it doesn't make sense to say, "Don't hit" with a hit. I agree with the remove the child from being able to hit you method (put her down as previously suggested and remove yourself from her proximity).
rivka made reference to Jim Fay. I would highly recommend his and Foster Cline's "Parenting with Love and Logic" to anyone. Fabulous ideas, I can't praise it enough. There are parenting classes (many times through the community and/or school district) or the book/tapes are great as well.
OTOH, I do believe in a spank when necessary but I try to never do it with frustration/anger and always as a last resort but with "I mean business" emphasis.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Icarus, as a preschool teacher and substitute teacher, I've had to learn how to discipline effectively without using corporal methods. Spanking doesn't equal bad parenting. As mentioned, I've used it myself in certain situations. But I tend not to use it as my first choice or general method because I think there are better, more effective ways to discipline. And when I say I can tell how kids are parented by their behavior, I mean that I can tell which ones come from very permissive homes, which ones come from balanced homes, and which ones come from quite strict homes. Most people who work with kids for some time can do that.
I do think that locking up kidnappers is not hypocritical. The consequence is known ahead of time, we are dealing with adults who are taking someone against their will, and there is no betrayal of trust between the kidnapper and the authority (on the authority figure's side). Ditto for parking tickets. When it comes to spanking children, however, there is often no concept by the child that they will be physically hurt for their behavior, they usually do not "know better" (for a first-time offense), and there is a huge betrayal of trust because the child expects a parent to protect from harm.
Regardless, I definitely do not equate spanking with bad parenting. I just think there are many more effective and powerful discipline methods for MOST situations.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
We gave Ryan a Thomas the Train set for Christmas along with a train table I made. Luckily, my wife had the forethought to tell me not to put legs on it yet, because he loves to climb on the table and sit in the middle. He knocks things over constantly, especially the bridge pieces. To limit it some, I glued some of those pieces together so they were a little sturdier against Ryan Kong.
The point to this is that one day, he took one of those pieces and whacked me on the head pretty hard. I grabbed in by the arms and shouted "NO, that hurt!". I think I told him I didn't want to play with him when he did that, but I think I had a concussion, so I'm not sure. Anyway, his lips started quivering, his eyes started tearing up and he said "I'm sorry Daddy, I'm sorry." I felt bad for making him cry, but he hasn't really done that again.
I don't need to spank my son to tell him that hitting is wrong, so I don't. I do believe, however, that every kid is different and that what works with one doesn't necessarily work with another.
We do spank him occasionally for other things. He can be very willful at times (he gets that from his Mom). We use other methods, like time out, first, but spanking is something we've done. We always tell him what is going to happen and give him one last chance to do whatever we are telling him to do. Once we tell him that, we rarely have to follow through on it.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
In our household spanking is the last line in the sand and I haven't found it necessary to get to that last line very often. But, it takes patience sometimes to get to the right disciplinary solution for each child and I think some parents leap to spanking as a first resort because they aren't willing to invest the time and effort it takes to find effective discipline. Note that here I'm a) not talking about any hatrack parent and b) not talking about offenses that involve danger to the child like running out into the street or reaching for hot stoves - those must be corrected immediately for obvious reasons.
I'm talking about ongoing behavior problems that exasperate the parent because nothing seems to work. I'll use a personal example to illustrate my point. Our son Daniel consistently came home with a low conduct grade. The teacher has a scale of 1-5, 5 being the best behavior, 1 being the lowest. We were almost always 4 or 3. Every time the remark was either talking at innapropriate times or not listening to the teacher. Now, this is kindergarten, and you can't expect perfect behavior every day from a five year old boy. But we can expect that he learn from his mistakes and correct them, and he wasn't.
We tried everything. He never got spanked, but we tried sending him to bed earlier than his siblings (he hated it but it didn't change anything), restricting him from the XBox (ditto) and just about everything else you can think of. Nothing changed, still consistently getting in trouble at school for the same thing. This went on for months, and we were losing patience and getting frustrated.
Finally, my husband came upon the idea of having Daniel model the correct behavior at a time when he didn't want to. At dinner, we always have each kid tell us about their day, and Daniel always had an involved story for us about something or other. We began telling him when he brought home a 3 or below, he wouldn't be allowed to talk at the dinner table. Instead he would practice being quiet while others talked. This devastated him. He loves telling us about thing (and to be fair, he did get to tell us about his day, just not at the dinner table) and he loves being the center of the family's attention. Not getting to do that was horrible.
Since we began that policy, it's been like night and day. We've gotten notes home from the teacher about how attentive he is and how she hasn't had to correct him. Now we don't expect perfection, and when he did bring home a 4 the other day we told him there would be punishment at all, because it's okay to mess up every now and then, but it just shouldn't be a habit.
No amount of spanking or yelling was going to fix this. It took patience and thought on our parts, and it was difficult. When I hear parents tell me "I spank him almost every day, and he still keeps getting in trouble!" then I honestly believe that's a lazy parent. One that wants a quick fix-all for every situation and thinks spanking is it. It isn't. Nothing is. Heck, when it comes to child rearing there is no such thing as a quick and easy solution to everything.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
Now that is a great concept, Belle. Matthew is one of those kids that nothing works with, so I might give that a try with him.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:When I hear parents tell me "I spank him almost every day, and he still keeps getting in trouble!" then I honestly believe that's a lazy parent.
I agree. Not to mention not very bright-- if you're spanking your child every day, it's obviously not working, is it?
I don't disagree with the times I was spanked. I was only spanked twice, both after I was 3 years old (old enough to understand and remember), both for breaking safety rules. Once was for jumping on the couch and pushing my three-years-younger brother off when I was four, and once was for letting go of my mom's hand in the parking lot, despite repeated reminders/warnings, when I was 3 1/2 and running right in front of a car, which barely swerved to avoid me.
Neither time did she spank me in anger. Both times, she sat me down (in the running in the parking lot case, after we got home), explained what could have happened, and that what I had done was something that could cause me (or both my brother and me) to be seriously hurt. Then she said, "I'm going to spank you so you'll remember that when you do this, it hurts." Then she spanked me. Hard enough to sting, not hard enough to seriously injure me, but I was a little wimp and cried all day both times. I remembered, and I never did those things again.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
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