quote:

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not because i'm ungrateful, but because they said they would pay for it, and if they aren't gonna, they should have said so from the beginning.

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I'd say that this depends. If they just randomly changed their minds, I could understand being upset. However, things do come up and I think it's unrealistic and ungrateful to expect that they'll pay for X or Y regardless of anything. When my parents tell me that they will pay for something, I interpret that as they will try to pay for it if they are able to. When they are not able to I am a little disappointed since I'll be paying for it myself, but it's not as though they owe it to me or anything.
 

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Posted by The Fae-Ray (Member # 9260) on :
 
Of course, some people are just plain spoiled.
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
I feel a bit envious... and at the same time... at least my parents have less of a hold on me in terms of lecturing...
So that is good, but you just can't have honey without getting stung by bees though.
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
Evie, it's just envy. There's that passage in the Bible where it says 'mourn with those who mourn and rejoice with those who rejoice'. I think we have no problem with the first part, and lots of problems with the second part. I think it's hard to be genuinely happy for people experiencing true good fortune. So we learn to downplay it, like we're just a little ashamed things are so good for us right then. Like if we really appreciate it by being openly happy about it, we're flaunting, bragging, or whatever.

OTOH, while it may be hard to be openly happy for people of good fortune, it's nearly impossible to be sympathetic when those people don't recognize how good they have it and have the gall to complain in the midst of their good fortune. "Mom is getting me a stupid 83 accord instead of the BMW she promised." isn't going to go very far with someone who takes a bus or who had to buy their own car. So there's a certain amount of sensitivity to be gained when choosing who to complain to.
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
That's the thing, though. It's NOT that we don't recognize how good we have it. At least, for me, it's a trust thing. For the BMW vs. used car thing, t's like if you fell in love with some Captain America Mega Deluxe action figure that your parents absolutely promise you that you can have for Christmas, and you've spent weeks on end daydreaming about all the fun you could have with it, and then your parents give you a stick figure. Made out of actual sticks. Sticks from your front yard.

My biggest problem isn't not getting material things. It's having my hopes raised up into the stratosphere.

-pH
 

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Posted by Kristen (Member # 9200) on :
 
pH, such a good point! But realize that Blayne also is right in that a skewed financial dependence develops. There is a difference between being entitled and feeling like you have been betrayed. I wouldn't defend the notion of the former so quickly.

I went to one of THOSE private schools and that type of person definitely exists. I remember shopping with my friend and she blew $1,000 and didn't even make a phone call to her parents to let them know (oh yeah we were 14). A lot of these kids would also spend their money on expensive drugs and parties in their parents' NYC penthouses. The worst was this kid whose dad owns a Fortune 500 company. He inherited $3mil when he was 18. He also got himself kicked out of our school because he was such a waste of everything (and imagine what his dad was donating...he was THAT bad).

So I do agree broken promises should be taken into account, but a lot of financially comfortable people grow up with unrealistic and ungrateful expectations about their money.

Thus, it's probably a mix of both, and also remember the pressure to fit in is also a contributor (being the only one of your friends without the consumer good of the hour can be excruciating for some). .
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
"Unrealistic" according to WHOSE standards, though?

I went to one of "those" schools, as well, and I was the "poor kid." And by "poor," I mean that I got a used car for my sixteenth birthday instead of an H2, and we lived in an incredibly nice neighborhood that didn't have a gate and a guard.

-pH
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 

quote:

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My biggest problem isn't not getting material things. It's having my hopes raised up into the stratosphere.

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quote:

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said, no thanks mom, i'd rather pay for school myself. no thanks dad, i really didn't want a car, i'll take the bus.

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quote:

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My problem is with the ones that never understand the value of the money they're being given, and who have no appreciation for the kids that don't have those same benefits.

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I totally agree. My friends in college were almost all on their own for school. They all had loans, scholarships, and jobs. I was actually ashamed of how easy I had it, even though I worked every bit as hard as they did. It was a weird sort of reverse materialism (anti-materialism?) where everyone bragged about how poor they were. Non-stop competitions to see who could have the lowest electric bill or eat ramen noodles the most consecutive days. It was totally bizarre.
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
I can't help but feel a bit rankled though, it's rude of me... but...
It's going to take me 3423523454395748957 YEARS to get a car... I got to walk everywhere and take the cab and trains all the time if I want to get somewhere, so I can't feel too simpathetic because no one's going to buy me a 65 mustang convertable or an ESP left handed custom made viper .
That's when you got to do things yourself I reckon, but it TAKES SO LONG!
Brkone promises suck though, but I am used to people saying they will do something and then doing the opposite. Or not doing anything at all.
Perhaps if I have kids one day, I doubt I will, I will do things a bit different... Help my kids, but not help them too much, but help them a bit more than I was helped...
 

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Posted by Kristen (Member # 9200) on :
 
ph, there is the issue of relativity. I don't disparge that.

However, the potentially unrealistic attitude they develop is that they can't connect spending money with its source and since they never took a dominant role in managing it, thus are most likely unprepared for when they have to make decisions about it later in life (taxes, insurance, their kid's equally $$ schools, maintaining different houses' gas/heating/staff pay etc).

This is obviously not awful. Most probably are smart enough to eventually learn to budget money even if they don't have pratice. But I do think it's a consequence for some who have lived in relative financial comfort and that lack of sensitivity towards money (combined with the ungratefulness, of course-- people are unrealistic about a lot of things!) can lead to a bitterness/unsympathy from others less fortunate.
 

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Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
 
JT -

I think that's because the idea of the self-made man is still something to be proud of, and something to be desired in America.

You shouldn't feel ashamed for having the benefits of your parents' good jobs though. America is full of paradoxes. We are all searching for the American dream, but we champion the poor guy making it on his own, pulling himself up by his own boostraps.

Having money is nothing to be ashamed of in itself, it's the attitude of the wealthy that can make it so. Likewise, being poor is nothing to be ashamed of, and not necessarily something to always be proud of. It depends entirely on what you do with it.
 

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Posted by Evie3217 (Member # 5426) on :
 

quote:

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It depends entirely on what you do with it.

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quote:

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you just can't have honey without getting stung by bees though.

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Absolutely false.
 

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Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
 
Seriously? You don't ever get stung? I totally gave up the idea of beekeeping because I didn't think I could deal with the stings. I expected I'd probably quickly become allergic to them or something, given my weird system.

On the issue of being spoiled, we went through this with my nieces, who really had way too much stuff. The problem became, should the mom be buying real art for her walls, and the dad get the BMW he always wanted, and leave the girls without the clothes and cars that their friends at school seem to take for granted?

On the one hand, all those things are luxuries, not necessities. On the other, if the parents are indulging themselves, it seems pretty hypocritical for them to be teaching their children a lesson they won't follow themselves.

I do think my nieces have suffered from having too much stuff. I remember one time taking the oldest to Toys R Us when she was about 12 and there was not one single thing in that huge store that she wanted that she didn't already have. It was sort of sad. She was disappointed. I remember Christmases when she was unhappy for the same reason. There was just nothing she wanted. I felt sorry for her. That was never a problem when we were little.

The only solution I see is for the parents and children both to decide what level of affluence they feel good about and give the rest to help others.

Right now there are people starving who could be fed if we wanted to feed them. That's always been true for all of my lifetime, though I hope it won't be true anymore starting sometime in the near future. I hope that all children will grow up with adequate nutrition and a decent education and access to books. I hope all children will grow up loved. We could do it if we really wanted to. I think we should and will.

However, the "right" level of affluence always seems to be just a little bit more than a person happens to be making right now. Most people, I think, tend to think those who have more than them have too much, and those who have less than them have not enough. I'm at least as guilty of this as anyone. When will I have enough books and cds and clothes? Why do a need a nice new car when an old used one would probably serve as well?
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
I think possibly some promises are more sacred than others. Well, strike the 'possibly', that's an fact of my moral worldview. If I promise my buddy I'll meet them for lunch, that's quite different from a promise to pay back $20.00 I owe a friend on my next payday.

So...possibly the trouble in addition to the broken promise is simply putting too much faith in having the exact letter of fulfillment of every promise your parents make to you as though it were a sacred covenant. I don't know the circumstances of this promise, so I can't say if it was just a changed mind on a whim, or the Christmas bonus was short or what.

But to be honest...I wouldn't complain about it either. Given the circumstances of being given a car, I would just be thankful I wasn't living like many other people who have to work a second job to be able to afford a POS. I would still be irritated at the broken promise for its own sake, but I'd suck it up.

And for the record I think it's not just the grievance at the broken promise. I cannot shake the idea that there is a sense of entitlement created by the promise of something so luxurious and utterly unearned as a brand-spanking-new BMW.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Okay, here's my POV.

Yeah, it sucks when parents renege on a deal. But it's ALSO the case that the people we're describing in this thread -- the trust fund kids with the car and the free ride -- are seriously spoiled. The mere fact that they expect these things, that they are promised these things, is itself something that gives them a seriously skewed outlook.

When I turned 15 and graduated high school, my father gave me $300 and told me to buy a car with it, since I was going to need it to get to and from college; he didn't think he'd be able to spare the time to drive me, even though we weren't yet sure where I'd even be attending. That was the full and complete extent of my financial support from either parent -- and since I couldn't get myself emancipated, they actually wound up COSTING me money when it came time to do taxes and/or fill out FAFSAs.

I'm not saying that's normal, either. But I think either extreme can do some damage.
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Gee, Tom, you received more financial support from your parents than I did...

And yep, I agree with pretty much what you've said.
 

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Posted by Kristen (Member # 9200) on :
 
The thing about the bmv that makes me tend to agree with Tom, Rakeesh et. al is that it HAS to be a BMV. There needs to be that status.

Cars are useful for many teens and college students in terms of commuting and I can see where pH is right in that if a parent agrees to help bear the burden of a purchase and backs out, it really is hard to deal with both emotionally and practically.

I also realize that everything is relative and a car might be normal practice.

But, here's the thing. The fact that it has to be the right kind of car and of the right brand name and new to boot (what adult would buy a young driver a new $$$ car anyway???) makes me believe that there is shallowness of intent and overly demanding and ungrateful expectations of parents.
 

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Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
 
My Car cost me $500. I worked a bunch of over time at the hotel so that I could buy it and I've maintained it myself to keep the cost down. It's got a huge hunk of rust under the passenger seat, it's teal for crap's sake and I don't look bad-ass driving it down the road. It does, however, get me from here to there and that's all that matters.

Getting a car is not that hard if you want/need it badly enough.
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Kristen:
The thing about the bmv that makes me tend to agree with Tom, Rakeesh et. al is that it HAS to be a BMV. There needs to be that status.

Cars are useful for many teens and college students in terms of commuting and I can see where pH is right in that if a parent agrees to help bear the burden of a purchase and backs out, it really is hard to deal with both emotionally and practically.

I also realize that everything is relative and a car might be normal practice.

But, here's the thing. The fact that it has to be the right kind of car and of the right brand name and new to boot (what adult would buy a young driver a new $$$ car anyway???) makes me believe that there is shallowness of intent and overly demanding and ungrateful expectations of parents.

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quote:

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Don't promise your damn kids things unless you're going to follow through.

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What if they realize after they made the promise that it was a DUMB promise, one they shouldn't've made, and apologize for it while still retracting it?
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
And gee, I don't know, I think I might get a little snarky here, but what about the kid appreciating - showing a little gratitude - that the parents at least follow through on most promises or just for giving them a half-decent life?

Cuz, I gotta tell you, plenty of kids don't get follow-through on any promises from their parents other than one to make their lives miserable.

Or maybe I'm just being a wet blanket.

I think I'll go sew now.
 

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Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
 
Well, my neighbor is actually one of those filthy rich kids. Her parents started Starbucks, so she has a private plane, pays her tuition up-front and doesn't even have to work. So I think that while rich kids might not necessarily get it easy, they sure as heck do get it easier than me as I am going to be in huge debt after I graduate.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Wait a sec. Your neighbors started Starbucks and you yourself are not filthy rich?

Do property values work differently out there?
 

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Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
 
I live in student housing. I said her parents started the company, not her.
 

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Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
 
Following the tradition of full disclosure...

When I was born, my grandparents (on my father's side) started a college fund for me and put money in it on every birthday. This left me with a nice sum of money - which could only be used for my college education. Knowing this - and several other extenuating circumstances, none of which have bearing on this topic - I remained in-state, taking full advantage of my scholarships and said "college fund" from my grandparents. Because of these two things, I still have money in that account.

I realize that it was insanely important to my grandparents that I get an excellent education, and that I develop the ability to pursue my dreams. I would have been extraordinarily remiss if I had not used their generosity to achieve my current status. (NB: Said fund and scholarships also paid for food and housing, in addition to tuition and books. This all cost my parents a few trips' worth of gas money. Oh, and the wood to build my loft. )

My current situation is that of a graduate student - which, while not a high-profit racket, does pay for tuition and gives me enough to cover rent and food and the like. I earn basic sustenance, and have a little to put away for a rainy day treat. I've left the remnants of my college fund in the bank to use to maybe some day get a car - but I in no way expect (or, truthfully, even hope that) my parents give me major assistance, unless I ask for it and demonstrate the need for it. (NB: In the interests of full disclosure, my mother does take some quiet delight in buying me clothes when I go home - nothing extravagant, but instead things I need that I might not have had the opportunity to get: just a couple pairs of jeans and a shirt or two. She claims she misses "spoiling me;" I think it's a fun bonding experience. There is never a multi-thousand dollar shopping experience. I personally find that obscene.)
 

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Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
 
Carrie, my mother does that too.

And I think she has gotten worse since she moved interstate.

Last year, she bought me three "birthday" presents - a beautiful skirt that was too pricey for me to buy for myself when I visited the month before my birthday, some actual presents sent over for my birthday and then some more clothes a couple of months after when she visited me and we were out shopping, ostensibly for her.

But she gets a lot of enjoyment out of it, and it is fun time together being grown ups *and* mother and daughter. So I let her.
 

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Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
What matters more than the trust funds, or the hard knocks, is what one does with the advantages and opportunities one has in life.

I've seen spoiled kids turn into wonderful adults. I've seen them come out badly too. I've seen the same with kids who started with nothing.

It is often impossible to know what another person's true circumstances are -- unless they tell you.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
And sometimes even then.
 

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Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
True enough.
 

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Posted by Princess Leah (Member # 6026) on :
 
Not to mention that trust funds are not exclusive of hard knocks.

In other words, paying for necessities+education+a reasonable amount of vanities (birthday presents, music lessons...) does not necessarily a good parent make.
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
Well, the other thing is, a lot of these "trust fund brats" are despised because of this perceived "I'm better than you" attitude. People are cruel, you know? And apparently, the hurt felt from that sort of thing is worthless in the grand scheme of things because Mommy and Daddy can buy a brand new Item X. Money doesn't buy happiness, and it doesn't buy acceptance, either.

I got a lot of that from people who didn't go to my high school and while I was living on campus in college. Apparently, I thought I was better than everyone else at school because...I wore expensive jeans (of which I had literally three pairs, mind you) and had a 27" television. Oh, and I had my own room, too, nevermind the fact that I had a medical reason for that.

My roommate, when I moved off campus, was ridiculously well-off. One of the reasons we got along was that we didn't harbor resentment toward one another. In fact, the whole reason we really started talking in the first place was because we lived next door to each other on a floor of "Oh man, my life is so hard, I live on ramen and snort coke every day, I work in a strip club, I sleep with everyone, screw you rich brats, I'm REAL" girls. You know the sort; they have to prove that they're the hardest hard luck case ever. It's a contest. And the only ones of my peers who ever get that specific brand of attitude (not that there aren't plenty of non-monetary attitudes ) from me are precisely those. The ones who treat me like my life is somehow worth less than theirs or I'm not appreciating what I have or have this preemptive "how can you think you're better than me, at least Daddy doesn't hand me everything" view before I've even said two words to them. Because honestly, I see no point in trying to prove otherwise; in my experience, these people have already made up their minds, and any attempts to contradict their beliefs are perceived as "boo hoo, poor rich kid's widdle feewings got hurt."

-pH
 

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Posted by LeoJ (Member # 9272) on :
 
I just read the start and then the following, didnt feel like there was need to keep reading.

Well people like the ph and vonk DO have it easy. My case, im not yet in University, because first i must work so i can save money so i can go to University and then while in university still work to keep paying, while trying hard to keep the grades up. There.

Hey the world is full of empty promises, at least mine. Good luck with that BMW.
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
There is an odd sort of "make you pay for it" vibe sometimes among women. That is, I think (think, mind you, and just piecing this together from both my own history and thoughts, as well as various conversations) that women with a particular advantage -- be it being beautiful, having access to money, or being otherwise successful in some way -- can get this initial reaction from other women of "Oh, she must think she's so hot. Well, I'll show her what I think of that!" And thus follows various snide remarks and cutting glances, etc.

I have no idea how this works among guys. I've seen this time and time again among women. And I recall that at the times in my life when I felt most miserable about myself, I was most hateful towards other women. (I don't know how widespread this is, but I suspect it isn't just me.) Eventually I reached some sort of peace with myself and who I am, and I remmber the very moment I started appreciating other women for their beauty, smarts, sucesses, and skills -- rather than seeing them as only competition.

Man, has my emotional life ever been better since. If I could change one things about my growing-up years, other than my father's ill health, that would be it -- to see other women from the very beginning as magnificent and fascinating creatures in their own rights, as opposed to competition first and foremost. A side benefit is that jealousy bleeds out personal power whereas self-assurance amplifies it, but that only follows as a side effect.

I wonder if perhaps when a woman of family means wants to express frustration about being treated wrongly by her parents, the things is to emphasize the "broken promise" aspect of it, rather than the "beamer" part? Maybe something like:

Person A: "Gee, I can't believe my folks let me down again."

Person B: "Why, what happened?"

Person A: "Oh, the details aren't important. It's that they made a promise and broke it again. That makes me feel like such [poo]. I can't count on anybody, not even my parents."

I bet that would go over better and be more authentic than giving the specific details, especially when it involves dollar amounts or brand names. Keep the conversation focused on what matters, you know?
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by LeoJ:
I just read the start and then the following, didnt feel like there was need to keep reading.

Well people like the ph and vonk DO have it easy. My case, im not yet in University, because first i must work so i can save money so i can go to University and then while in university still work to keep paying, while trying hard to keep the grades up. There.

Hey the world is full of empty promises, at least mine. Good luck with that BMW.

---

Monetarily, yes. I have tons and tons of opportunities that plenty of other people don't. For example, I can afford to work at very cool unpaid internships because I don't need the money to support myself. But money isn't the only aspect of life, you know.

I find it amusing that the people who shout the loudest about money not being important and money not buying happiness are the same ones who feel that the problems of those who "have it easy" (however you define that) are less valid than those who don't. If you really think that money doesn't buy happiness, why should you CARE if CEO X makes $300,000 a year when he has to check into a mental hospital? Basically, if you really don't think that money buys happiness, then you can no longer throw the "oh, but he/she has it so easy" comments in whenever someone is depressed or upset or whatever.

-pH
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
Recalling how I used to dread walking past mirrors, be enraged at being exposed to other women's beauty and how ugly that made me feel, desire to downplay other women's scholarly successes, and so on ... geez, what a miserable life! *shudder

Couldn't pay me to relive my life. Nuh-uh, no way. I'll take grey streaks, wrinkles, and cranky joints over that any day.

Lord bless, what a joy it is to be in my thirties and happy about it! [Thank you, thank you, thank you to The Powers That Be for emotional progress and the wisdom of experience. Bring on the last half of my life. Bring it on! Age and wisdom and personal strength -- joy and health.]
 

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Posted by LeoJ (Member # 9272) on :
 
did i say money buys happiness?
in the other hand monetary problems brakes families and you dont care about money because you already have it.
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by LeoJ:
did i say money buys happiness?
in the other hand monetary problems brakes families and you dont care about money because you already have it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by LeoJ:
Ofcourse you have monetary problems, your cracking your head because you want more, its natural ofcourse.

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This is exactly the attitude I'm talking about.

"Monetary problems" do not HAVE to be the need for more money, you know.

-pH
 

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Posted by LeoJ (Member # 9272) on :
 
People always want more, or want what they dont have.

I dont know where you want to go, but ok.
 

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Posted by prolixshore (Member # 4496) on :
 
Money doesn't buy happiness, but it certainly can relieve stress.

Sure, you can be pretty happy in your life and not have money (my parents), but if you had enough money (not saying being wealthy here) that you could make it from paycheck to paycheck without having to worry about running out of food cash three days early, it sure simplifies things.

I think that at a certain point, however, having MORE money ceases to substantially improve life. If you make 200,000 dollars a year and get a raise to 250,000 dollars a year, you will be happy about it, but does your overall life satisfaction really raise that much? If you are a billionaire and you make another billion, does it really have any effect?

Because of my background and that of my parents, I can't help but respect those who struggled from poor circumstances to become successful, simply because too often they don't. This doesn't mean that rich kids didn't work hard to get through school. Who knows what kind of adversity they may have faced. It is just easier to see what hardships befell a guy with a single mother living in poverty than a guy with two wealthy parents.

I never had money, but I wouldn't consider my family poor, either (at least not during my lifetime, before that yes), yet sometimes my acheivements have been held up as less than others because I am naturally more intelligent than some people. If I am on the Dean's list, and so is a girl who really studied and worked hard every day, people give more credit to the girl. Is that fair? Maybe. She worked harder than me. I see relatively little difference between respecting the girl who studies for her grades over the guy who never opened the book and got an A, and respecting the guy who worked full time to put himself through college over the guy who had a trust fund that paid for it so he could screw off in his free time. Either way, you were born with your advantages and disadvantages and you make the best of them.

--ApostleRadio
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
Money doesn't buy happiness?

I really hate that phrase, because while it's technically true, money sure does help! There's a lot to be said for having enough money, to do things like pay your bills, eat, and have a little money and time left over for fun once in a while. No, I don't buy into the sentiment that makes wanting money somehow a bad thing, like you're just buying into the whole consumerist culture. Money might not buy happiness, but having it drastically reduces the things you have to be unhappy and stressed about, and whether or not you're happy in other areas of your life really doesn't change whether you're rich, poor, or in between.

Sorry your parents disappointed you, pH. I will admit that it's hard to be sympathetic, but you're right, they shouldn't have promised you something that they couldn't or wouldn't deliver. Do you know why they changed their minds? Maybe if you understood why, it would help you deal with it. In any case, I'm sure you know they won't support you forever--which is probably why you're spending time on those internships. Those should really help you get a good job, and then you can buy your own BMW. And I bet it will be much sweeter if you can really call it your own.
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
Dude, I never said that MY parents promised me a BMW. I was using the BMW thing from Blayne's Trustifarianism thread.

I already have a car.

-pH
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
I think you'll find that if you asked around, particularly if you ask around amongst people who have lived both, you'd realize something I believe already.

You'd see that the set of problems that comes with having lots of money and barely making it are much like the difference between the set of problems that comes with being pretty and being ugly. Neither set of problems, in and of itself, is enough to ruin or ensure a life's happiness. Neither set of circumstances are without problems. Neither set are the most important aspects of life.

But, y'know, they're each pretty darn important to what kind of life you will have, and in each case there's one set that sucks a whole lot more than the other. Guess which set you have? So yes, despite having money, your life can indeed be pretty crappy sometimes, and not just crappy in a shallow way, either.

But since money plays such an important role in the lives of people-I'm assuming you've heard the saying, "Money isn't important, only the lack of it,"?-maybe you shouldn't expect such instant empathy from those who lack money, and cut them a little slack. Because, y'know, it could be a lot worse.
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
I'm not expecting empathy.

I'm expecting to be treated like a human being.

I really don't think that's too much to ask.

-pH
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
While money does not buy happiness, money is one of the easiest ways to remove many obstacles to happiness.
 

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Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
 
Pearce, I like you. I think you are a nice girl. Hell we had a limited time on our trip a few years back and we spent an entire afternoon with you. I think you are rad. I never felt that you were a spoiled rich brat...until reading this thread. Your statement above, about expecting to be treated like a human being, doesn't seem to apply on hatrack.

Maybe I am not reading the right threads, but I have never seen any mistreatment of you based on your financial situation. I wasn't even aware of it.

So if you are tired of being mistreated in real life, than address the people who are giving you trouble with it. All I feel this thread has done was point out that you ARE financially secure to the point where one might call you rich, or well off at least. This thread seems to be creating an issue where none was before.


that is all...

[ March 30, 2006, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: Ben ]
 

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Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
I've been both flat broke and solid middle-class, and I've noticed no correlation between my income and happiness.
 

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Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
 
Actually, we're all ridiculously wealthy by world standards. Unless someone here is accessing the internet from their subsistence-farming village in Africa where one of those satellite internet stations has been recently installed...?

I just read that the per capita gross domestic product of people in the U.S. is something like $25,000, while for most of the world's population it's well under $1000. None of us should ever feel jealous or resentful of people who have more, for we are all vastly wealthy by world standards.

Also by standards of history, it's interesting to compare ourselves to the Egyptian Pharoahs or the Roman Emperors, to the people with the most wealth and privilege of almost any time in history, like King Arthur (or the kings his legend is modeled after), Queen Elizbeth I of England, etc. all of whom lacked many of the luxuries available to the poorest person in western countries today. For instance, access to clean, lead-free water, antibiotics at the free clinic, books from the public library, textiles woven of marvelous fabrics with outstanding properties of warmth, softness, and color, indoor plumbing, access to baths, and dozens of other marvels, not to mention simple civilization. My nieces aren't going to murder me to get my inheritance, for instance, something that the aforesaid kings could certainly not count upon.

Those people, looking at us, would laugh to see us whine about our lot. They'd rightly think we're a bunch of softies.

So I guess what I'm saying is that if I ever feel the urge to whine about anything at all, then I should probably listen to others' whines with sympathy, and not dismiss them as having everything handed to them as opposed to my own situation in which I .... also had vast privileges which most of the humans in time and space don't and didn't share.

[ March 30, 2006, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: Tatiana ]
 

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Posted by prolixshore (Member # 4496) on :
 
Hatrack is time warping.
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
Ben, I wasn't referring to Hatrack in the least.

If anything, as I said, it was a stress-induced rant brought on by the impending GMAT, Blayne's thread, and a few other, much more minor things. I didn't start this thread to take issue with anyone on Hatrack in particular; if I was responding to anything here, like I said, it was the "Trustifarianism" thing. That's all.

-pH
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
If somebody is tired of dealing with the problems that come with too much money, it is very easy for them to change their situation. If they don't, then it's because they've chosen to put up with the problems wither money is causing them.
 

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Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
 
It's easy to take things for granted, that much most everyone would agree to. However, what is sometimes lost is that people of all circumstances take something for granted, whether it be financial support, intelligence, physical attributes, good health, or even life itself. A person complaining about someone else being given financial support could just as well direct the complaint inward at himself for having been born in an affluent country.

Complaining about another person's circumstances is usually done when a person thinks he would be happier if his own circumstances were different, so it’s merely a reflection of discontentment over one's own choices in life. After all, we've pretty much established that happiness or contentment is not dependent on circumstances themselves, but rather, our attitude toward those circumstances and how we deal with them. So why complain about someone else if you're already happy with your own life?

So, what about the person that complains about the unfulfilled promise of a BMW? Is that person taking for granted the financial situation that many other people don't enjoy? Well, yes, but in the same way that a child that laments over his father's broken promise to attend his first baseball game is taking for granted that he even has a father to talk to.

The real issue is not what a person has but his attitude of self and others. A person that feels that his wealth makes him a better person is just as bad as a person that feels that his humble circumstances make him the better person.
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
Note: there is actually a difference between being flat-broke and poor. One's expenses can meet their income and they may still be categorized as rich.
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
That's pretty much my point, camus.

It bothers me when people think that having any one thing, be it love, money, intelligence, looks, religion, whatever, is going to solve all of their problems. Because it really doesn't work that way.

-pH
 

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Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
 

quote:

---

If somebody is tired of dealing with the problems that come with too much money, it is very easy for them to change their situation.

---

quote:

---

It bothers me when people think that having any one thing, be it love, money, intelligence, looks, religion, whatever, is going to solve all of their problems.

---

I think most people assume, in their heart of hearts, that having money and looks will solve the vast majority of their problems. And I'm not sure they're wrong.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
Oh.. Well, I didn't read Blayne's thread. Trustifarian wasn't enough to entice me into opening it. But I just did--thanks so much for that little experience...

I guess my comments would have to be directed to the imaginary spoiled kids that he was talking about.

As for rich kids being considered spoiled because they don't have to pay for their education, I think that the notion is there because of the few high-profile students who don't do anything but goof off all day and never study. They just zip around campus, swerving around pedestrians, and cut off the junker cars with their shiny little sports cars... They give all of you decent rich kids a bad name...

And since we're now just talking about hypothetical rich kids, I'd bet that the ones complaining about not getting the BMW they wanted really ARE spoiled.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
Having money sure would solve a lot of MY problems! HECK YEAH!

Not all, of course, but I'll take it.
 

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Posted by Earendil18 (Member # 3180) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by TomDavidson:

quote:

---

It bothers me when people think that having any one thing, be it love, money, intelligence, looks, religion, whatever, is going to solve all of their problems.

---

I think most people assume, in their heart of hearts, that having money and looks will solve the vast majority of their problems. And I'm not sure they're wrong.

---

quote:

---

Husband number two--the senator. He loved his state. He loved his country.

What about Debbie?

"Sorry, Debbie. No Mercedes this year. We have to set an example."

Oh, yeah? Set this!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TomDavidson:
I think most people assume, in their heart of hearts, that having money and looks will solve the vast majority of their problems. And I'm not sure they're wrong.

---

quote:

---

As for rich kids being considered spoiled because they don't have to pay for their education, I think that the notion is there because of the few high-profile students who don't do anything but goof off all day and never study.

---

I've met a few of these. I don't consider them bad people though, just lazy .

One was my friend Jim, who was in his eighth year of college (for a four year program) and who had gotten kicked out of at least a couple colleges. His parents were really rich doctors. He ended up getting a cushy internship at a company through his parents' connections, despite his less than stellar grades. This was in the middle of the tech crash of around 2001-2002, when even the most promising students weren't getting internships. He made a good drinking buddy though, and was a fun guy.

The other was one of my roommates in San Diego, who happened to share my first name (Phil). He was in his early thirties, and had never had a job in his life. His parents had recently cut him off when I moved in (I'm not sure why), and he had to get a job as a mattress salesman. He lied to his employers and told them he had 5+ years of sales experience. He spent most of his time at the beach and playing golf. He admitted to his laziness freely. He wasn't ashamed of it, but wasn't proud of it either. He was confident that he would be able to convince his parents to bankroll him again soon when I left. But besides being a lazy bum, he was a pretty nice guy.

Did I judge them for letting their family's wealth make them lazy? Of course. But I wasn't resentful or anything.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
Hmmm. You know, my father-in-law (who actually seems to like me) once referred to me as 'a little spoiled', and it really upset me.

Yes, my parents made sacrifices for me. We didn't have a lot of money -- I was always hyper-conscious of ordering cheap things when we ate out, or whatever, because I knew there had been times when there was not much to spare. But things changed, and my mother would hide price tags or cover one side of a menu and make me pick the dress or the dinner that liked best, because 1. by then we did have enough to relax a little and 2. she didn't want me to grow up to be miserly and weird about money.

I think it worked. *shrug*

I had a trust fund because it was set up in the divorce decree, but it wasn't huge. I had scholarships, but I still had a workstudy and maybe $1500.00 a year from my folks to cover other stuff. Ron's trust fund (AND his scholarship) was much larger than mine.

But I was 'spoiled'?

I think it must be that I just looked, at that time in my life, like someone who had everything (and probably always had). I was pretty and thin, had genuinely loving, supportive parents I adored and who were enthusiastic boosters and very proud of me. I had a 4.0 and generally expected good things from life.

Maybe it was that their son would move heaven and earth to sheild me from mild discomforts...

Wait a minute... I AM spoiled!!

*shame*
 

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Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
 

quote:

---

It bothers me when people think that having any one thing, be it love, money, intelligence, looks, religion, whatever, is going to solve all of their problems.

---

quote:

---

Look at movie stars who most can agree have money and looks. Do you see a vastly happy and content group of people?

---

quote:

---

They ARE wrong. Look at movie stars who most can agree have money and looks. Do you see a vastly happy and content group of people?

---

quote:

---

Ah, but their problems aren't products of their money or their looks. That money and looks do not manage to solve ALL problems, but merely go a long way towards making it easier for stars to ignore their crippling problems until they turn up in the public eye, should be pretty obvious.

---

quote:

---

Sure, money can eliminate certain problems, but those problems are not barriers to happiness.

---

quote:

---

I think most people assume, in their heart of hearts, that having money and looks will solve the vast majority of their problems.

---

quote:

---

What I think pH means is that people should be sensitive to the fact that while certain people have gotten lucky in some aspects of life, their problems are valid and real and there is some balance in the world.

---

quote:

---

They may solve your current problems, but a whole host of new, and just as serious, problems will crop up.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Ah, but their problems aren't products of their money or their looks.

---

I would like to politely disagree. Few people get into movies without looks and that's where the money comes from. I think that many of their problems are products of this. I agree that fame is an additional factor in many of these problems though.

But anyway, I think good looks are a two edged sword. If you are REALLY good looking you are going to have certain problems from that and no one is really sympathetic to the pretty girl complaining about her stalker or that only jerks talk to her because the nice guys are too intimidated. On the other hand good looking people often do get better treatment and origionally get more good characteristics attributed to them. I personally think it would be best to be somewhere in between plain and beautiful, you might not get the benifits of being beautiful but you won't have to deal with the problems either.

Money, to a point can make you happy. It is VERY hard to be happy if your fundamental needs of shelter and food are not being met or barely being met through 80+ hour work weeks. After that though, I think that more money does not equate to happiness. There is a high rate of depression in lottery winners as they realize that the money is not bringing them the happiness that they thought it would.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
The mere fact that people expect money to rid them of all unhappiness is, IMO, sufficient demonstration of money's effectiveness at eliminating most problems.
 

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Posted by Rien (Member # 1941) on :
 
http://www.investmentadvisor.com/issues/2006_3/columns/6032-1.html People can make mistakes and I think that the assumption that money will make you happy is a mistake.
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by TomDavidson:
The mere fact that people expect money to rid them of all unhappiness is, IMO, sufficient demonstration of money's effectiveness at eliminating most problems.

---

I think it creates a scapegoat that allows people to avoid the real problem. Oh, I'm not satisfied with my life? Obviously, it's because I'm not making enough money. I'm unsuccessful in relationships? I don't make enough money to attract the "right" kind of person.

-pH
 

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Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
No more so than the high school kids who think steroids will get them into the pros demonstrates steroids effectiveness. It may get you what you want, but with it comes a new set of problems that are as bad or worse.

edit: This's to Tom
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
I think the people who have THOSE thoughts about money, by and large, do not have money problems. It's probably a good way to recognize people who have enough money.

Basically, the kind of problems that can be solved with money tend to fall into the category of "real" problems. (The few real problems that can't be solved with money tend to fall under "illness" or "violence," and in many cases money helps with them, too.)

Emotional problems, as far as I'm concerned, aren't even on the MAP. Those are the problems you play with when you don't have to worry about the real issues.
 

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Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
 

quote:

---

Basically, the kind of problems that can be solved with money tend to fall into the category of "real" problems. (The few real problems that can't be solved with money tend to fall under "illness" or "violence," and in many cases money helps with them, too.)

Emotional problems, as far as I'm concerned, aren't even on the MAP. Those are the problems you play with when you don't have to worry about the real issues.

---

Of course, the elimination of these problems, real or imagined, is not a requirement for happiness.
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
Reading this thread, this has more to do with prejudice than with money or the lack thereof. Actually, there are a number of issues here.

1. People who are just plain prejudiced against the "rich". Personally, I think there are a LOT of people with this prejudice. If you're rich, you must be selfish and not care about 'the little people'. You don't know what real work is. You'd happily sell your grandmother if it meant money in your pocket. The only real virtue is in sweat. I love country music, but they play to this prejudice rather heavily, IMO. As do many politicians on both sides of the aisle.

2. People who justify prejudices against the rich. These would be the people who make all those prejudices seem true. Corrupt CEOs and Paris Hilton come to mind.

3. People who really don't exactly fit the 'rich' stereotype, but nonetheless have little sense when it comes to choosing who to complain to. I think this is also a very large group, in which I include myself. I've done it.

THat said, IMO having money is much nicer than not having it. However, just like anything else, if you have it, you have to take care of it and sometimes that can be as much work as making it in the first place. I wouldn't call that a problem unless it becomes one.
 

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Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
Emotional problems are every bit as real as the 'real' problems you reference that money would wash away.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
camus, your point -- that someone CAN be happy despite his or her circumstances -- is a bit obvious. Will you concede that it is HARDER to be happy in times of difficulty, or are you confident that happiness is simply a state of mind independent of condition or environment?

-------

quote:

---

Emotional problems are every bit as real as the 'real' problems you reference that money would wash away.

---

quote:

---

I disagree. I think they're an entirely separate and altogether less serious category of problem.

---

quote:

---

I think they're an entirely separate and altogether less serious category of problem.

---

quote:

---

Money does NOT equal happiness. Having enough money does, however, make happiness a lot easier to obtain than when you have very little.

---

quote:

---

Will you concede that it is HARDER to be happy in times of difficulty, or are you confident that happiness is simply a state of mind independent of condition or environment?

---

quote:

---

I think its just plain stupid that only problems fixable with money are "real" problems.

---

I specifically noted illness and violence as exceptions, and also noted that money helped with them, too.

quote:

---

Money does NOT equal happiness. Having enough money does, however, make happiness a lot easier to obtain than when you have very little.

---

quote:

---

I think it creates a scapegoat that allows people to avoid the real problem. Oh, I'm not satisfied with my life? Obviously, it's because I'm not making enough money. I'm unsuccessful in relationships? I don't make enough money to attract the "right" kind of person.

---

quote:

---

I specifically noted illness and violence as exceptions

---

quote:

---

Those problems can (and frequently are) severe enough that even the desperately poor are crippled by them while searching for food and shelter. Many homeless people, for example.

---

quote:

---

Emotional problems, as far as I'm concerned, aren't even on the MAP. Those are the problems you play with when you don't have to worry about the real issues.

---

quote:

---

Time.
It's the single most important currency we have. It's the ONLY real currency.

Everything you own, everything you do, can be concretely measured in how much of your life is spent achieving that desire.

---

Real life as an MMORGP.
 

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Posted by Kristen (Member # 9200) on :
 
There is a difference between having money in the abstract and contextually:

Being able to provide for all you/your family's needs is certainly a wonderful thing and the absence or not certainty of that is stressful (especially with legal implications such as debt). If you can provide, in theory, with a little extra to spare, you don't have 'money problems'.

Yet there is also the element of class which I think is crucial. I am reading a book called the Overspent American and it talks about how Americans not only feel like they must provide, but also 'keep up with the Jones' or, ideally move up the social laddder.

This is in no way original, but according to the book, the average salary most people BELIEVE they need is around 100,000-200,000 a year. This huge disparity from the average, in an age where most supplies can be purchased at a relatively low cost thanks to mass production, shows that the desire for status symbols and material goods fuel this monetary anxiety.

Essentially, even if you do have enough money, it doesn't FEEL like you do. So money doesn't buy happiness.

Ehat I am saying is that even if the pure money woes aren't there, there is a whole bunch of comparisons to the majority/your social group/other social groups which dictates a conception of finances which may be stressful and feel like real money problems.

reason for edit: 8 hours of classes=mind goes *poof*
 

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Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
 
Kristin, I would largely agree with you. I think that people tend to establish their fixed costs at very high levels in order maintain the lifestyle they desire. But it seems that you're suggesting that can't constitute a real money problem. If you can't make your bills each month, then you have real money issues. The threat of losing your house, even if is $300,000, is a very real money problem. The solution to this is to not take on more fixed costs than you can easily pay, but that advice isn't very helpful when you're choosing between paying the electric bill and buying groceries.
 

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Posted by Kristen (Member # 9200) on :
 
Amanecer, yes true. Good clarification, my brain is fried after school. Status/class anxiety can directly cause real, as well as perceived, money problems. Overspending is as valid a contributor to financial problems as a lack of sufficient income.

I'm just saying, even if you were rich, much of the social problems of not having enough money would still exist, either in order to keep up in terms of status or would persistent in other less related realms (like oh, the need to turn your forehead into a botulism experiment to look young). Of course you wouldn't fear not being able to pay the morgage next month, but I don't think an absence of SOME problems necessarily means happiness, as much I would like to think if I lost 10 pounds my life would be shiny and fun.
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
-Money equals security.
Which is why I keep hoping to get more, for at least the illusion of security.
As I feel so insecure these days...
 

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Posted by stacey (Member # 3661) on :
 
Yeah, I'm one of those people that are prejudiced against rich people even though compared with a lot of people I am "rich". I am envious of those people that have all that money that they can worry about trivial problems like they didn't get the beemer their parents promised them, when my problems would be that I was sick and couldn't work last week so how am I going to get the money to pay the rent? So yeah I can be a tad sarcastic about people telling me about those sorts of problems.

And if your parents didn't give you a beemer when they promised it, get over it!!!It is just one broken promise of many that you will have broken in a lifetime and in this case it's not even that important. The parents probably had a good reason, ever think of that(like wanting to teach them a lesson about not taking the money for granted...)!

BUT,

Having said that, if I did have that kind of money then hell yeah I will be buying a beemer and all sorts of luxuries that go with that sort of money.
 

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Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
 
I agree with everything camus has said in this thread.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:

quote:

---

Time.
It's the single most important currency we have. It's the ONLY real currency.

Everything you own, everything you do, can be concretely measured in how much of your life is spent achieving that desire.

---

Real life as an MMORGP.

---

My thought when I read Tom's post was, "He played EQ."
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
I actually remembered Tom saying the exact same thing about MMORPGs once.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Yep. That's one of the reasons I find MMORPGs completely unfulfilling as games. And playing a MMORPG or two actually helped me recognize the importance of time as currency in any environment where all else is held or assumed to be equal.
 

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Posted by Earendil18 (Member # 3180) on :
 
I knew there was a reason why I preferred reading Hatrack instead of WoW!
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Yep. That's one of the reasons I find MMORPGs completely unfulfilling as games. And playing a MMORPG or two actually helped me recognize the importance of time as currency in any environment where all else is held or assumed to be equal.

---

quote:

---

You recognized the value of your time by wasting it playing a video game?

---

Yes. It's because video games make transparent the connection between time spent on an activity and achievement at that activity. By default, in a MMORPG, if you spend time doing something -- even if you die, a temporary setback -- you get better at it. Period.

This link is not quite as obvious in the real world, so we don't usually say "well, I COULD go to Hatrack and farm my typing speed for the next hour -- but I really need another point or two of Strength, so I'm going to work out instead."
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Part of the problem is tha IRL, you lose things if they aren't maintained. Is it worth it for me to do some strength training today if I don't think I'll do it again for six months?
 

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Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
Extending that analogy, is it worth it for me to stay strong now when I know I'll lose that strength in my sixties?
 

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Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
 
Tom,

Reducing ones quality of life to disposable time is flawed for different reasons than reducing ones quality of life to disposable money.

The worth of time is variable in a powerful way. I think that this is why the snooze button is so popular. Two minutes when you are on hold is different than two minutes when you are on a cross country trip, which is different than two minutes when you are swimming.

As an aside, time, as measured precisely by clocks, strikes me as unnecessarily empirical and an unbecoming lord of human affairs.
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
Quothe Douglas Adams:


"Time has indeed become like a foreign country... They do things exactly the same there."
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 

quote:

---

As an aside, time, as measured precisely by clocks, strikes me as unnecessarily empirical and an unbecoming lord of human affairs.

---

You're an idealist, Irami. Your mind recoils from the thought that comparative utility can be measured by anything other than the finest product of the mind.
 

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Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
 
Rigourous attention to time has an appropriate place, but I think we have over-prescribed accounting time as a solution to human problems. That mentality bleeds down to the suspect practices of dividing pregnancy into trimesters, college in credit hours, and understanding full citizenship to begin at 18.

Instead of cultivating a thoughtful culture in which every task gets its due, we risk spawning an accounting culture where every job gets a certain allotment of time. The risk, of course, is that we lose the ability to think about the task and determine its due.

Over-prescribing time accounting is similiar to over-prescribing antibiotics or painkillers, to where the body develops a dependency on them and can't do the simplest functions without their influence. This is the case because if a culture of clocks destoys this culture of thought, the culture of clocks becomes required to make sure anything gets done.

[ September 10, 2006, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 
This is what I have to say to that nonsense:


010101010101010111010100001010100001010101011101001011010101010101010101000010111010101010110100101010101010101010101001

just kidding! Your absolutely right. Especially about the college credit hours and the "adult" thing. I am constantly amazed by the energy some students put into gleaning credit points and grades out of their teachers rather than... duh, learning something. I know people who check in at the beginning of class, and check out at the end, and that's it when it comes to participation. there is no being part of the community, no effort to involve yourself in your work, just the bare minimum. Because there's "no-time?"
 

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Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
 
My 2¢ (or, with inflation, $5.25):

First, to disclose, my Grandfather was a small-time industrialist and efficiency expert, ending up with three smallish brick factories. Not exactly Bill Gates, but rich enough to set up a trust fund for my education.

My parents are both pediatricians, generally the lowest-paid of all doctors, but still an upper middle-class occupation. Their tuition for the first year of medical school was $500, by the second year it was ten times that. Even though that is nothing by today's standards of tuition (this was the late eighties/early nineties) and even though my dad had already worked for ten years, this was a financial strain on them. Thus, I grew up lower middle-class for the first five years of my life (we lived in an ancient duplex until I was three, and then in a KB Homes equivalent neighborhood until I was eight.)

I was and am poorer of the rich children at my prep school, while many of my friends live in haciendas and gothic mansions, I live in a nice largish cottage-type house in a less than fashionable suburb. I do not have a car, and this is not just because I can't drive, but am in the amiable position of not having to work until I graduate from college and of being unlikely to have a great debt.

However, I would like to move back to my parent's tuition for med school. It cost $100,000 then to educate a doctor, with the $80,000 being paid by the State of Texas. Why? Because Texas, not known as a bastion of Socialism, realized the value of doctors in the state. The only requirement was that each graduate do some work for the government, almost always in a military hospital, this being San Antonio.

Would not our society be better if the state were willing to invest in students this way more often? Education is an investment, and generally a profitable one, not a charity.
 

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Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Vonk:
i'm not rich, but my parents do have enough money to send me to school. what should i have done? said, no thanks mom, i'd rather pay for school myself. no thanks dad, i really didn't want a car, i'll take the bus. like anyone is gonna do that.

---

Erm. I did. I took the "free" ride for a year, dropped out of college, started a business, paid off the $30,000 in student loans, saved enough money to complete the rest of my education over the next two years, and refused my parents attempting to buy me a car.

I still take the bus.

It's the attitude of entitlement, rather than Rich Kid status, that irritates most people.
 

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Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
 
I am not sure that makes you morally superior.
 

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Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
 
I'd agree with erosomaniac. It may or may not be a morally superior position, but when people complain about not getting ENOUGH free stuff handed to them, it's pretty grating on people who work their butt off.

If someone tells a drowning man that she's SO frustrated that his splashing has ruined her expensive leather shoes, you can't expect him to feel to bad for her terrible situation.
 

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Posted by Samarkand (Member # 8379) on :
 
Well, they were awfully nice shoes. Jimmy Choos. My space pony gave them to me.

But seriously - look how rational everyone's being! And articulate! It warms the cockles of my heart.

I'm a closet socialist, I'd like to see everyone receiving health care and food and some kind of roof over their heads. Free plastic surgery which is non-reconstructive and especially nice accomodations - no. But health care? And food? And shelter? Yes.

I read an interesting series of essays The New York Times did called Class Matters. You can view it all online at http://www.nytimes.com/pages/national/class/
 

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Posted by Samarkand (Member # 8379) on :
 
Oh - and pH, not to be obnoxious but -

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." -Eleanor Roosevelt

Which is not an easy thing to live by, but it is good to remember.
 

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Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
 
I don't know if the term, "Spoiled Brat" is one that people tend to throw around all that much. What I mean is that if you call someone a butthole, they may or may not actually be one, maybe you're just upset or they did something that upset you. I can't think of a lot of times that someone has been called a spoiled brat when they have not been acting like one. I suppose the real trick is not to act like a spoiled brat.
 

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Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
And hey, if someone calls you a jackass, maybe the real trick is not to act like a jackass.

-pH
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
You say it mockingly, but there is truth there.
 

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Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
 
erosomniac-

You've mentioned a few times that you started your own business- a pretty cool thing to do. You've probably said what it was before and I missed it, but what does the business that you started do?
 

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Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
 
I know you are, but what am I?
 

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Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 

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It's the attitude of entitlement, rather than Rich Kid status, that irritates most people.

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If I could sum up in one word what's wrong with America today, it would be that word: entitlement.

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Originally posted by Eduardo St. Elmo:
the only things everyone is entitled to: life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

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Pelegius wrote:
I am not sure that makes you morally superior.

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Amanecer wrote:
You've mentioned a few times that you started your own business- a pretty cool thing to do. You've probably said what it was before and I missed it, but what does the business that you started do?

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This is in no way original, but according to the book, the average salary most people BELIEVE they need is around 100,000-200,000 a year.

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Everyone deserves food, but has to pay for it.

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What? Unless I'm missing some nuance (which I doubt), that's a horrible analogy. Or it's a good analogy supporting a weak argument -- my personal vote.

No one has an innate right to food. Those who are strong enough or smart enough to procure it are the ones who live and prosper. People expecting to be fed and clothed simply because they bless the world with their existence are exactly the sort I have a problem with.

Darwinism, baby.

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A friend and I formed an LLC to do webdesign, which was very successful but we later dissolved to do sole props, for various reasons. We also started a consumer electronics retail site, but the cost of keeping it profitable was not worth the time it was taking us to keep up with it. Thus, I am now a sole-prop web & graphic designer.

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Very cool!

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All the people I know who have salaries in the 5 digit range, think that this is average. Most of them think they don't make that much money and many think that they are just scaping by. It really skews our perspective of poverty and decreases our gratitude for what we have.

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Word. This perfectly describes the town that I grew up in. A family friend told me that he believed it would require $400,000 a year to truly be comfortable. He seemed to feel like a failure by pulling in $60,000 a year with his wife making around $40,000.

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He's not useful to society anymore - why should society keep him around? Seals may help each other with hunting, but if a seal is disabled I doubt the other seals bring food to it for the rest of its life - by becoming disabled it was either unlucky or not well adapted to the enviroment - making it both a drag on society & on society's gene pool.

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