When I was finishing up at school I decided to not put up with any (former) friends who gave into peer pressure. I have a crazy theory I just came up with why they do it though, especially on the matter of sex, and especially the stupid girls (which seem to really outnumber smart girls here, sadly ).
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“Inter” (as in intercourse) means between, and since intercourse is (usually) between two people that means they have to keep it to themselves. This is often unhealthy, and between teenagers, is always unhealthy. So they do talk about sex to each other and that explains why they’re (used to include me) so open about it. As a result, however, it becomes part of the “in” culture of teenagers since it’s something that feels really good and allows them to feel more like adults and less like their parents.
Those who aren’t in on it, and have any sort of self esteem issue (all teenagers do when they first find about these things if it’s from friends – a great reason why parents SHOULDN’T take the easy, more comfortable road of not talking to their teens about it) get manipulated or if they refuse to be manipulated get harassed as the others try to exclude the refuser in order to make themselves feel more justified. Of course, this develops hatred, which is never healthy.
There’s the case where the parents don’t mind, sometimes even encouraging this kind of behaviour because it’s easier that way. But I don’t put all the blame on the parents. I blame the media blamers.
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I now have just 4 friends when I used to have dozens, but it was worth it. Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Gosh, you virgins are so cute.
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
And way cooler than the rest of y'all. Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I know. They're just so superior.
Posted by just_me (Member # 3302) on :
quote:When I was finishing up at school I decided to not put up with any (former) friends who gave into peer pressure.
So you applied some peer pressure to not give into peer pressure?
Question: If a teenager has sex does that mean they necessarily gave into peer pressure?
or to put it another way: is it possible for someone to do what 'everyone else is doing' because they want to, not because everyone else is doing it??
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I don't think peer-pressure is inherently any worse than parental-pressure, or religious-pressure, or whatever.
Regardless, I had sex as a teenager, but it certainly wasn't because of any peer pressure. It was because there was a girl who happened to want to have sex with me, and that sounded like an excellent way to spend the evening.
Posted by cheiros do ender (Member # 8849) on :
I didn't peer pressure any of those friends into anything. I simply stopped keeping communication with most of them when I left, and didn't make any particular effort to be their friend for the week I was still there. Or does ignoring automatically equate to pressuring for you?
I didn't say every teenager that has had sex gave into peer pressure. I'm saying why I think sex is such a big thing among teenagers.
Plus, there's no way to construe what I wrote as me being a virgin, unless you have a problem with me and are trying to be a snob. One thing you can assume from it is that I don't talk about my romantic life.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
When a teenager gets pregnant, the father is, on average, five years older.
I absolutely think that love and acceptance and self esteem and sex have become/are all mixed up together, and unfortunately, the longing for one turns into the agreement to another in an attempt to gain the first.
[ March 31, 2006, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
When I had sex as a teenager (long before many of you were born) it was because I loved the man and because he loved me and making love was exactly that. It was a way to express our love for each other. I was not under any pressure. It was not because I had low self-esteem. It was my idea (and caught him a bit by surprise). It was not remotely unhealthy and is in fact a very treasured memory.
Posted by cheiros do ender (Member # 8849) on :
Making love is hardly something teenagers know how to pressure anyone into. Sexual activity between the more promiscuous teenagers today is (to quote more than one of them) "good exercise and stress relieving".
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I have discovered something about advice: No matter what choices someone made in their life, when asked to give advice to someone in the same position, with a very, very few exceptions, most advise to do the exact same thing that they did.
That's what makes anecdote threads tricky. People generally think they made the right decision, and they advocate it. So, of course I think sex as a teenager is generally a bad idea, and of course someone who did have sex as a teenager would think it was a good idea.
I think that's part of why rebels are disturbing to people. While some of disquiet is because of the actions taken, much of it is because it is a repudiation of the one's own decisions.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
You know, I don't really think there's a clear line between "having sex" and "making love," even though people like to pretend that there is.
-pH
Posted by cheiros do ender (Member # 8849) on :
Someone please tell me, why is guilt always accompanied by a desire to repeat the act that made one feel guilty?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Because people like to think they are right.
Changing means admitting one was absolutely wrong and shouldn't have done it. That's not good - our brains take care of us by helping us to feel good about ourselves. Good for lack of depression; bad for repentance.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by cheiros do ender: Someone please tell me, why is guilt always accompanied by a desire to repeat the act that made one feel guilty?
Where are you getting that from?
-pH
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
what?! you people had sex as teenagers?! lucky SOBs. i really wanted to have sex as a teenager, but didn't really try that hard. that was how it was with most of my friends. we knew about sex, talked about it quite a bit, wanted to have it, but never really did anything that would cause it to happen. we even had little pity parties where we would talk about how we couldn't get laid. it was great. good times.
but the people that were having sex cetainly weren't trying to pressure us into having it. we made fun of ourselves way more than anyone else did.
Posted by cheiros do ender (Member # 8849) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: Because people like to think they are right.
Changing means admitting one was absolutely wrong and shouldn't have done it. That's not good - our brains take care of us by helping us to feel good about ourselves. Good for lack of depression; bad for repentance.
I'm gonna take that to heart for the rest of my life. Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Just becaues someone's opinion on a subject changes doesn't mean he/she has talked himself into it. Opinions change. That doesn't mean the person is necessarily trying to justify a "sin."
-pH
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I have discovered something about advice: No matter what choices someone made in their life, when asked to give advice to someone in the same position, with a very, very few exceptions, most advise to do the exact same thing that they did.
That's what makes anecdote threads tricky. People generally think they made the right decision, and they advocate it. So, of course I think sex as a teenager is generally a bad idea, and of course someone who did have sex as a teenager would think it was a good idea.
I think that's part of why rebels are disturbing to people. While some of disquiet is because of the actions taken, much of it is because it is a repudiation of the one's own decisions.
Please don't think I would try (by my example) to make you feel that your decision was wrong. I am sure that your decision was right for you, just as mine was for me.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
Cheiros,
I'm going to infer from your post that A) you are, in fact, a virgin, or B) your experience in the matter hasn't been all that positive, for whatever reason.
Either way, try not to get too sour on the subject before you have a chance to see how fantastic it can be.
quote:Changing means admitting one was absolutely wrong and shouldn't have done it. That's not good - our brains take care of us by helping us to feel good about ourselves. Good for lack of depression; bad for repentance.
Good point, katharina. A great psychology professor I once had said, "A healthy mind, generally, attributes success to itself and failure to the machinations of circumstance. A person is depressed when they do just the opposite."
Something along those lines anyway.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by cheiros do ender: Someone please tell me, why is guilt always accompanied by a desire to repeat the act that made one feel guilty?
Not quite sure what you mean by this. Is it a non sequitur or are you implying that those of us who had sex as teenagers continue to have sex because of guilt?
If your are implying the latter, I can assure you that, in my case, it doesn't apply.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote: I have discovered something about advice: No matter what choices someone made in their life, when asked to give advice to someone in the same position, with a very, very few exceptions, most advise to do the exact same thing that they did.
I don't agree with that at all. Maybe I just know a different sort of people. Most people I know who I trust for advice will share their experiences, but not expect that what worked for them would work for a different person.
There are generally good ways and bad ways to make most decisions. You can choose to have sex or not and the important thing is how you go about making the decision and how well that decision fits you. One of the common things among the unsophisticated is to assume that everyone who makes a different decision is somehow defective. When someone comes out with "Here's why all other people do this thing (which incidentally translates to me being a better person than they)", they're a generally very wrong.
Posted by cheiros do ender (Member # 8849) on :
quote:Cheiros,
I'm going to infer from your post that A) you are, in fact, a virgin, or B) your experience in the matter hasn't been all that positive, for whatever reason.
Either way, try not to get too sour on the subject before you have a chance to see how fantastic it can be.
You are an idiot. Sorry to be so crude, but you are. And your proving my original post's point perfectly, whether you're aware of the fact or not.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
You know, it might help if you didn't get all offended when someone says he thinks you're a virgin.
Since when is "virgin" a pejorative term?
-pH
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote:I didn't peer pressure any of those friends into anything. I simply stopped keeping communication with most of them when I left, and didn't make any particular effort to be their friend for the week I was still there.
I think it's unfortunate that you abandoned your friends just because they made different choices than you. Instead of judging them, you might benefit more from learning why they feel as they do. I'm not trying to suggest that you change your views on sex, but coming to an understanding of how others see things can only be a positive thing.
I also think that the reasons you give for teenagers having sex are very simplistic and do not cover the wide range of emotions that actually go in to that decision. You see sex as something to feel guilty about, many people do not. Instead of coming with a theory about why other people make the choices they do, I think you'd learn a lot more from asking and listening.
Posted by prolixshore (Member # 4496) on :
I think that many teenagers have sex because they want to, not because other people want them to. Sure, there are some times when one party or the other feels pressured by their significant other to have sex they don't want. Actually, there are too many instances of that.
I'm not sure, however, that all or even most teenagers have sex for that reason. I'm not convinced that girls are only having sex as teens in order to feel loved and accepted. Perhaps they are having sex because they are teenaged bundles of hormones that are attracted to each other and decide to act on that attraction? I think that is a good theory as well.
--ApostleRadio
EDIT: Wow, those sentences exhibit a complete lack of organization. Sorry about that, folks. It won't happen again.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:A great psychology professor I once had said, "A healthy mind, generally, attributes success to itself and failure to the machinations of circumstance. A person is depressed when they do just the opposite."
That's a pretty twisted definition of a healthy mind to me. Also, while it's true for a certain type of person, it doesn't fit the full data set at all.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I'm a virgin. I would advocate not having sex until you are married strenuously, for everyone.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Wow - did I kill the thread?
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
I would suggest that perhaps, since not all people plan to be married, nor view marriage in such a sacred light, it's really going to vary from couple to couple whether sex is a bad idea.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
What if your marriage is not strenuous?
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
quote: Someone please tell me, why is guilt always accompanied by a desire to repeat the act that made one feel guilty?
I have found that my desire to repeat an act that made me feel guilty was because my guilt was misplaced.
I have done a few things I have truely felt guilty of, and I have never had a desire to repeat them. I have also felt guilty over stupid stuff, until I realized my guilt was misplaced. Once I recognized that my guilt was misplaced, the guilt went away.
True guilt, it seems to me, erases the desire/mistake and replaces it with remorse.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
I am not a virgin. While I would not advocate sex for everybody, I believe that, carefully considered, sex can be a wonderful gift. For me, it certainly has been.
Posted by Chungwa (Member # 6421) on :
I don't plan on getting married - of course, that could change in a year, or even a week. And all my sexual experiences to date have been nothing but positive.
Of course, different things work for different people so I'm certainly not going to suggest everyone ought to have sex before marriage.
And cheiros do ender, I'm pretty new to Hatrack, so I hesitate to type this, but your response to Juxtapose seems extremely rude.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
I always figured teenagers (generally) had sex because:
-- their bodies were demanding to -- they lacked either the self-control or the need for self-control -- they wanted to think of themselves (and be perceived by others) as adult, and this is what adults do -- they felt deep emotional connections to the other person -- they felt deep physical attraction to the other person -- all their friends were and they felt embarassed/stigmatized/awkward because they hadn't -- a lot of media presents sex as something fun to do -- guys felt like they weren't men unless they had -- girls felt like it was the only way to keep boyfriends happy
and probably many more reasons. And all of them apply, to some degree or another. Trying to pick one motivation and say why it's right or wrong is a bit simplistic for any human endeavor, much less something as level-heavy as sex.
Posted by Chungwa (Member # 6421) on :
That was very well said, Chris.
Posted by cheiros do ender (Member # 8849) on :
My problem with Juxtapose wasn’t that he thought I was a virgin. I think my first post made it pretty clear that I don’t have a single thing against virgins. It was that same mindset of all the stupid teenagers who talk just like he did when another teenager won’t talk about their sex life.
I didn’t abandon those friends. In high school, as you no doubt know, you go along to get along. That’s with your friends - randoms don’t matter - but it doesn’t hurt to be polite. My friends and I would do that with each other, knowing we couldn’t just agree all the time. But before I left I hadn’t been attending much (family problems) and so I lost touch with most of my friends. When I did come in they were friendly, but they wouldn’t let me have my wild opinions anymore. They always have good intentions, but they can be such jerks when you don’t know all the details of their silly little group. And I was friends with people they didn’t like. It’s weird, but somehow understandable.
I just wanted to get year 11 over and done with so I ignored them and mostly kept my mouth shut, except around my best friends and teachers. Sometimes I’d snap at the rest, but not much. When I did leave, because the good subjects for year 12 were no longer available to me for lack of attendance and thus marks, I just quit before year eleven even ended and got myself a job.
This whole group was based around the parties they had: parties I never went to. They consisted of sex, drugs and rock and roll ... literally! Later hearing 3 of them, on separate occasions, tell me they have sex more than anything else because it’s “stress relieving” and/or “good exercise”, I sort of gave up on that group. One of those 3 I’m still friends with. He actually (also) has a good reason to have sex, besides stress and exercise. It’s a spiritual thing, and it totally works for him, and there’s no reason why that should bother me.
I wasn't applying my "theory" to all teenagers, or even a majority, I was talking about a specific culture of teenagers. Peer pressure in this culture is not shaped by your friends literally trying to pressure you into do stuff (which is actually healthy, since it means that friends share differing opinions with eachother), it comes simply from being a part of that culture.
Also, I’m getting married next year. Posted by Kristen (Member # 9200) on :
The difference between now and the past is that teenagers can get away with having sex because they have a high chance of not ending up with a pregnancy or a disease. Only the most culturally isolated of teens in the US aren't aware of that.
The desire is probably there for most, but practical concerns were usually too scary way back when to risk it. Now, it really boils down to your sense of religion, morality, and relationships with others because the practical stuff is less scary.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
i remember when one of my brothers high school friends got married. they were both good christians and had abstaned until marriage. i remember my mom leaning over to me and whispering, "now i'm not saying i approve of premarital sex, but that is going to be awkward! Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Chris Bridges: I always figured teenagers (generally) had sex because:
-- their bodies were demanding to -- they lacked either the self-control or the need for self-control -- they wanted to think of themselves (and be perceived by others) as adult, and this is what adults do -- they felt deep emotional connections to the other person -- they felt deep physical attraction to the other person -- all their friends were and they felt embarassed/stigmatized/awkward because they hadn't -- a lot of media presents sex as something fun to do -- guys felt like they weren't men unless they had -- girls felt like it was the only way to keep boyfriends happy
and probably many more reasons. And all of them apply, to some degree or another. Trying to pick one motivation and say why it's right or wrong is a bit simplistic for any human endeavor, much less something as level-heavy as sex.
At least half of those are also true of adults as well. Quite frankly, I think more teenagers have idealistic views of the virtue, or at least the romanticized importance of sex, than do the 20 somethings.
I see no problem with having sex as a teenager, so long as there is enough emotional maturity between the two parties involved. If either party does it for the wrong reasons, or really, for no reason, that could lead to some emotional stunting later on in life. But anything involving sex, relationships, and the like is a learning process anyway, and at some point you're likely to get burned. Some of that is part of growing up.
I do however think that what goes on in junior high schools these days is way over the top. Those kids can't possibly have any idea as to what they are really doing, or the dangers involved. And even if they do, I'm sorry but that's still too young.
Posted by password (Member # 9105) on :
quote:Originally posted by cheiros do ender: Someone please tell me, why is guilt always accompanied by a desire to repeat the act that made one feel guilty?
Because sometimes, the very act that makes you guilty is the only relief from the guilt-- i.e. you aren't feeling the guilt *while* you do it and are otherwise. In fact, that's often what drives people to compulsive and self-destructive behavior, according to a common behavioral model.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote:the practical stuff is less scary
I think that you're correct that this is the common view. However, it saddens me that this is the case. Pregnancy should not be written off as so unlikely as to not be a concern. It is still a possibility and should be treated like one.
Posted by cheiros do ender (Member # 8849) on :
Thing is, it wasn't even my friends from school that caused me to make this thread, it was this email from a former friend in Britain.
quote:its not like i want our friendship 2 end. And why did u even ask anyway? Theres not alot of point if u dont like me in tht way n e ways. Plus, y r you so botherd? it hardly effects you does it? its not like were eva guna end up like tht. And its not like id do it 2 jst anybody, u proberly wont believe dis but i do hav alot of respect 4 myself. And jst becouse i dont want 2 act like a nun my whole life hardly makes me a slag. The reason i accused u of wanting me 2 kill myself, was becouse u were goin if loads of gurls jumped off a bridge wud u do tht 2, even tho thats alot more serius then givin sum1 hed. And u made me start 2 fink i didnt hav a reason not 2 jump off a bridge, so i fort u were implying tht i go and do it. Mitch at the end of the day i dont really care wht u fink of me, but if u judge me on tht sort of shit question agen then theres not alot of point in us tlkin cuz i cant tke the stress of it anymore. Obviosly i dont expect u 2 agree wiv everything i say, but u always think wht u say is rite, and dont say u dont becouse everytime i try and disagree wiv sumit u say u jst hav a go at me and dont let me explain. If u still want 2 b friends den ok, but take wht i say in to consideration sometimes.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Hrm. Regardless of her position on oral sex, I think you're probably well clear of her based on her grammar skills alone.
I mean, that's DREADFUL.
-------
That said, you might want to consider her point; it DOESN'T sound like you're giving any consideration to her point of view, and I think it's up to you to decide whether you want to.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
wow, your friend needs to work on her typing skills. that was hard to read. but anyways, more power to her. it sounds like she has a point.
Edit: I mean, what Tom said.
Posted by prolixshore (Member # 4496) on :
Wow. Reading that gives me a headache. I'm not sure I could effectively correspond with someone who wrote that way.
--ApostleRadio
Posted by Chungwa (Member # 6421) on :
I'm a little confused on what you're getting at. I apologize if this sounds judgmental, but I'm just trying to clarify.
Are you saying you don't want to be friends with people who have sex for, what you consider, the "wrong" reasons?
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
It does sound like your friend is making decisions about sex that she isn't ready to make. It also sounds like she needs a friend that won't judge her - at least right now. You may not feel right about being that person and then it does make sense for you to distance yourself.
I wish you luck.
I think that your problem here was assuming that every teenager was like your friend. That could be considered a little condescending.
Posted by Rico (Member # 7533) on :
How does th turn into an f all of the sudden?!
Bad spelling/grammar or not, she does seem to have a point. Also, why should you judge your friends based on what they believe in? So long as it doesn't harm you and they're good friends in all the areas that matter, who cares if they believe the world is ruled by bloodthirsty porcupines or anything else for that matter?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I'm wondering why her, or their, sex lives are really his business.
Especially to the point where he can make those kinds of judgements about them.
I don't think they're missing all that much in losing a friendship with a person who'd stop being friends with someone else, entirely based on their sex lives and his personal vendetta against an overactive sex drive.
Posted by cheiros do ender (Member # 8849) on :
I had a discussion with her in which I asked her what her position was on head jobs and hand jobs (she's 14). She said she'd probably give one in the future. I said yuck. She got angry at me (not going into all she said so you can just assume I'm bias about that bit). I gave her reasons why I thought she should't do it. She kept trying to change the subject.
I asked her if she thought it would be a good idea because it would make her more popular. She said "Of course it would". Then i realised she wasn't anything like the person I thought she was. That was the worst part. All that time we'd talked, the only time she'd listened to me was when I was trying to cheer her up. She said in that very conversation that I argue too much and she just agrees all the time to shut me up.
I blocked her (MSN). No much later I thought we could still be friends and asked her if that was alright. She replied with that. I'm never talking to her again. Instead I came to hatrack to discuss this. Must admit I didn't do a very good job at explaining what I meant (that it only applied to a specific group). Sorry about that.
quote:Are you saying you don't want to be friends with people who have sex for, what you consider, the "wrong" reasons?
No I have plenty of friends who I believe have sex for the "wrong" reasons. But I won't be trying very hard to achieve the give and take that would be required in such a difference of views between teenagers. That works for me because I really only want a small group of friends at the moment.
I know that sounds snobby, but I quit high school so I have do a lot more to set myself up for a successful future. School, academically, was easy for me. With my current situation I just don't have the time to keep up with that many people.
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
I'm actually more inclined to believe that the reason teenagers do not have sex (or at least postpone the experience) is because of peer (societal) pressure. The body starts telling us at a very early age that it is ready for sex. So what keeps everyone from going around having sex at the age of 13? I suspect the main cause is societal pressure, especially when you consider that marriage and childbearing at the age of 13 was not always abnormal.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I don't ever think that waiting to have sex is a bad idea. If you think you're not ready, you're most likely right.
My only problem is when people who haven't had sex decide that everyone else should follow their lead, because waiting until marriage is better. If you haven't had sex, you don't really have any personal frame of reference for whether or not it's better to wait. Better than what? Better than getting pregnant, surely. Better than getting an STD, too. But beyond those two, you can easily limit the risks from sex. The objections I mostly see from the 'wait until marriage' folk are concerns about the emotional well-being of making a rash decision. Which varies a tremendous amount from person to person.
So I don't see how "everyone should wait until marriage" is good advice. Some people probably should, and most people probably won't.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I know many won't. That doesn't change my reasons for thinking that waiting is better, for everyone.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
And in my case, you would have been very wrong. Just as I would be wrong to think that you would have been better off if you hadn't waited.
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
quote:That was the worst part. All that time we'd talked, the only time she'd listened to me was when I was trying to cheer her up. She said in that very conversation that I argue too much and she just agrees all the time to shut me up.
I applaud only wanting a small number of friends. I have very few friends, and my best friend (apart from my wife) lives out of state. Who are your friends and why they are your friends is purely personal and you are correct in doing what works for you.
That being said...
From the above quote, it sounds like you haven't been a good friend. It sounds like you are dismayed because your friend doesn't change and take your advice. She only listens when you cheer her up.
If she is just agreeing to shut you up then maybe there is something to what she is saying. On the surface it sounds like you need some introspection.
Of course this is a superficial communication. What do I really know about the dynamics of your relationship? If you are upset because she only uses you to cheer her up and she offers nothing to the relationship, then what I said doesn't apply. But it reads like you are trying to make her into something you believe in--and that is leading to arguments, you being hurt at her not letting you shape her, and her just nodding to "shut you up." <-- her words, not mine!
It sounds like your needs are about fixing someone else and not about getting your own form of emotional support. I certainly would never consider someone a friend whose interest in our friendship is based him/her on trying to mold me into what/how they think I should believe and/or behave.
Posted by camus (Member # 8052) on :
It's hard to think clearly and always see the big picture at the young age of 14. I think not having a clear understanding of one's reasons for making certain choices at the age of 14 is quite understandable. I think the bigger mistake is to judge someone and to completely cut them out of your life because of a difference of opinion, one that might change in year or two. After all, how many people are the same person at 20 years of age that they were at 14?
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
camus, I just want to say that I've really come to respect you in the past month or so. This isn't targeted to one thread in particular, just a general feeling that I've had. Posted by password (Member # 9105) on :
Everything else aside, it is disturbing to hear that a 14 yr old say "it's just head", even in hearsay. I'm sure it's not uncommon, but that doesn't make it good.
edit: In fact I'd say the more common it is the worse it is, probably.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:I had a discussion with her in which I asked her what her position was on head jobs and hand jobs (she's 14). She said she'd probably give one in the future. I said yuck.
She probably will. It might not be for awhile -- she might even wait until she's married, but chances are good that at some time in the future she will engage in one or both of those activities.
And I absolutely do not understand the tactic of discouraging early sexual behavior with the idea that it's "yucky." Does it magically not become yucky when you're older/have better reasons/get married?
Edit: And I think she was absolutely right to try to change the subject. Why are you so interested in her attitudes/opinions about sex anyway? Considering your claimed age and considering that she's 14, I'd say it's absolutely none of your business and completely inappropriate for you to ask her about it.
Posted by cheiros do ender (Member # 8849) on :
quote:Originally posted by camus: I'm actually more inclined to believe that the reason teenagers do not have sex (or at least postpone the experience) is because of peer (societal) pressure. The body starts telling us at a very early age that it is ready for sex. So what keeps everyone from going around having sex at the age of 13? I suspect the main cause is societal pressure, especially when you consider that marriage and childbearing at the age of 13 was not always abnormal.
How about the complication of it not just being sex. These girls are friends. I don't want to have a relationship with them. I've loved three girls in my short romantic life.
The first was a great friend I liked from the start (first day of high school, first year 8 not from my primary school I met) and I knew I liked her from then. I was too shy then though and later she became too much of a friend. I still liked her for quite a while, on and off, but I didn't want anything other than a friendship with her. I really don't think a relationship would've been better. She was the one who agreed to go out with me if I pulled her name out of a draw, which i did, and then I declined (if anyone remembers me saying that).
The second I've known since I was 10, and lives around the street. I don't know what made me fall for her, but I did, asked her out and she said no. I lost interest in girls for a while.
Then my current (and first) girlfriend came into my life and we're getting married next year. I knew I liked her the moment I met her too, and wasn't willing to let it become just a friendship. It paid off. I know I made the right decision not to have a serious relationship with another girl (though if the second one had worked out I'd probably be saying the same thing).
Please don't construe this as me thinking any less of people who act/think differently. I keep trying to explain what I mean, and even rereading my own posts realise I suck at it.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
I don't think I would advise someone to make most of the decisions I made, including the ones I think were the best.
I seem to remember telling someone that I didn't think she should abandon her religion for a relationship (even though that is essentiially what I have done, without a whiff of regret, mind you) because I believed that person would regret it.
So, what is best for one person isn't always best for someone else. More people should realize this.
Also, a lot of people who did not wait for marriage (with or without regrets) still advocate waiting.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
cheiros...
Part A: It sounds to me like you gave up on some of your old friends because you didn't like the fact that they are sexually active.
Part B: It also sounds like you couldn't keep this to yourself.
Part C: You correspond with a 14 year-old girl asking for intimate details of her sexual behavior.
Part D: You got angry when that girl changed the subject AWAY from intimate sexual details.
I'm getting a really weird impression of you at the moment, young man.
Posted by cheiros do ender (Member # 8849) on :
"Part C: You correspond with a 14 year-old girl asking for intimate details of her sexual behavior.
Part D: You got angry when that girl changed the subject AWAY from intimate sexual details."
Thing is I've never really thought of her as that young. I first talked to her when I was 15/16, and she said she was 15. It was a long time before I found out she was two years younger than me. I shouldn't have asked her a question that I probably wouldn't even ask a 16 year old girl. It was something in my life to do with someone else I'm not going to talk about here, but that's no excuse. If she ever talks to me again I'll keep that in mind, Bob.
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
I'll just say that I didn't wait until marriage but did wait until I was well and truly in love and don't regret that. I *am* glad I didn't have sex at the first opportunity presented.
Other than that, I seem to be incredibly in accord with kmbboots, who is saying much what I would quite eloquently.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I agree that telling people that sex is vulgar or yucky or dirty is a very, very bad way to go about things.
I'm living proof; I can't read or hear ANYTHING about pregnancy or sexually transmitted diseases without having to wash my hands. A lot. I go through a mental struggle in many restrooms because I'm afraid that I will contaminate myself somehow in the process of using them. I constantly struggle with the feeling of being DIRTY, at least partly because I do have sexual urges. Logically, I know that this makes no sense, but I can't seem to convince myeslf of it.
If fewer teens were told that sex is a dirty thing, maybe they'd be more likely to educate themselves about diseases, emotional consequences, and whatnot. And maybe if sex wasn't so forbidden, it wouldn't be as much of an issue with teens.
-pH
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
cheiros do ender, you're a boy? I thought you were a girl. Eeek!! I second what Bob_Scopatz said. I thought this was in reference to girlfriends of about the same age talking together.
How low is it to wait for a parent to walk away and then advocate oral sex to an underage person? If I were there parent I would press charges--surely there is some legal recourse a parent can take when an adult advocates sexual activity to a minor.
Posted by cheiros do ender (Member # 8849) on :
Okay, (about the Sharon Stone link) is there anyone here who doesn't think that's yuck? And why is the Paris Hilton porn tape thing available for anyone to download on there mobile here? Wouldn't she have to authorise that?
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
quote:If you haven't had sex, you don't really have any personal frame of reference for whether or not it's better to wait.
I don't think that's true. Most people know some people who have chosen to have sex at a young age, and it's certainly possible to observe the way it impacts them. While you cannot judge how good the experience itself is, at best it is still just an experience that lasts for a very brief time. Thus to say one cannot make judgement calls about sex without having experienced is not any more true than saying one cannot make judgement calls about whether or not one should use crack without having used it.
Almost without exception, those that I know who engaged in premarital sex as teenagers claim it was a good thing, but from observing them you can usually tell it has negatively influenced them - some to a lesser degree, some to a greater degree. Usually it is not in the extreme forms of unwanted pregnancies and STDs. Usually the negative influence comes in the form of: distorted views of relationships (looking for a realtionship to get sex), disrupted relationships, misplaced priorities, disrespect for the other gender, a reduced ability to enjoy themselves when sex isn't involved or implied, etc. To put it simply, I think not having sex makes life easier if you are not married - especially for a teenager. I remember that even in college, you could almost see visually the difference in the way they acted, the way certain attitudes were distorted, and how certain aspects of their life grew more complicated.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
From what I understand, the guy in the tape owns the copyright since he was the one who made the tape with her consent, and licensed it in a contract with a company, though he's since denied that. The contract has been made public, though, and it appears he most certainly did (I don't know if the court case has finished yet).
IOW, its likely available quite legally.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Xaposert: Almost without exception, those that I know who engaged in premarital sex as teenagers claim it was a good thing, but from observing them you can usually tell it has negatively influenced them - some to a lesser degree, some to a greater degree. Usually it is not in the extreme forms of unwanted pregnancies and STDs. Usually the negative influence comes in the form of: distorted views of relationships (looking for a realtionship to get sex), disrupted relationships, misplaced priorities, disrespect for the other gender, a reduced ability to enjoy themselves when sex isn't involved or implied, etc. To put it simply, I think not having sex makes life easier if you are not married - especially for a teenager. I remember that even in college, you could almost see visually the difference in the way they acted, the way certain attitudes were distorted, and how certain aspects of their life grew more complicated.
And I know PLENTY who haven't experienced these effects. "Misplaced priorities" meanin what, exactly? No one can tell one way or another if someone has had sex. I can guarantee you that; when I still lived on campus, EVERYONE thought that I was quite sexually active...and I most assuredly wasn't.
-pH
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
Misplaced priorities refers to allowing a desire for sex to overshadow more important priorities, particularly long-term priorities. For instance, sacrificing a friendship for sex. Or even, not to mention any specific examples, sacrificing one's relationship with one's roommate in order to have sex.
And no, you can't tell one way or another if someone has had sex by looking at them.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
I'm kinda with Sterling here. I'm always so surprised that people assume there has to be two camps: the "teen sex is okay" folks and the "wait til marriage" group. What about something in the middle? I don't think teenagers should be having sex. I'm 20 and when I think back to my high school years, I hardly recognize myself. We've all heard the studies about how teenager's brains aren't fully wired for decision-making yet. I think its important for a person to take responsibility in steps. Drive first, go away to college and be independent, then you can worry about longterm risks to your physical/mental well-being. People shouldn't take on the dangers of disease, pregnancy, and emotional trauma if they don't know how to pay rent or budget their lives.
As for sex being "dirty," I think there's a difference between "diseased-dirty" and "morally-dirty." pH says she falls into the first category, but I suffered from the latter. My family is not very religious but I did hear alot in school, media, television, books, movies, magazines, etc about how women are "used" and treated as objects in sexual relationships. I felt guilty and stupid for allowing myself to become vunerable.
I'm all about educating and discouraging sex in teenagers, but I also worry about the longterm effects. There's a whole lot of "sex is bad" messages being given to teens rather than "sex for teens" is bad. Putting too much negativity on the act, rather than the age of the participant, is setting up problems for everyone, even those who choose to be responsible and wait.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: And no, you can't tell one way or another if someone has had sex by looking at them.
I'm curious, Tres, how then you were able to detect the ones who'd had sex in sufficient numbers to use the phrase "almost all."
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shanna: I'm all about educating and discouraging sex in teenagers, but I also worry about the longterm effects. There's a whole lot of "sex is bad" messages being given to teens rather than "sex for teens" is bad. Putting too much negativity on the act, rather than the age of the participant, is setting up problems for everyone, even those who choose to be responsible and wait.
Exactly. I don't think teens need to have it hammered into their heads that they should never, ever, EVER have sex because sex is an awful, disgusting, wrong, or dirty thing. Granted, not all teens who are taught that sex is dirty will make the leap to sexual contamination like I did (and that, unfortunately, started when I was eight...and became terrified that I was pregnant). But here's something I've never really understood about teaching teens that sex is wrong:
There isn't some magical moral switch in your head that's flipped when you say "I do." I think emphasizing the wrongness or dirtiness of sex is likely to create problems even if the person DOES wait until marriage. I mean, you've had all this stuff thrown at you about purity and not defiling your body or that of your beloved...that seems like the kind of thing that would be hard to suddenly let go of on the wedding night.
-pH
Posted by password (Member # 9105) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH: There isn't some magical moral switch in your head that's flipped when you say "I do." I think emphasizing the wrongness or dirtiness of sex is likely to create problems even if the person DOES wait until marriage. I mean, you've had all this stuff thrown at you about purity and not defiling your body or that of your beloved...that seems like the kind of thing that would be hard to suddenly let go of on the wedding night. -pH
well put.
Posted by Swampjedi (Member # 7374) on :
I second that (what password quoted).
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
quote:I'm curious, Tres, how then you were able to detect the ones who'd had sex in sufficient numbers to use the phrase "almost all."
"Those who I know who engaged in premarital sex as teenagers" is what I said - and that refers to friends of mine who either told me or who I in some other way found out they were having sex.
quote:There isn't some magical moral switch in your head that's flipped when you say "I do."
I don't think the "wait till marriage" has to do with your head. I think it has to do with the fact that you are then committed to one permanent relationship. That solves most (not all) of the complications that usually arise from sex.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
But Tres, if they hadn't told you, you couldn't have been sure. There really isn't any indicator, one way or another. People that I'd been friends with for quite some time had no idea that I was a virgin until someone else made it public knowledge. Guys I DATED had no idea, as long as they didn't press the issue. The thing is (I started a thread with this title long ago), "virgin" is not a personality trait. It's not something you can see in the person's face, and it's not something that you can necessarily determine from his or her actions or lifestyle.
-pH
Posted by Peek (Member # 7688) on :
i have hung out with the worst of the worst and I was never once "peer pressured". i think it's bull. i always did what i wanted to, not what my friends suggested i do. i dont know if its just because my peer group was druggies and goths, but they never pressured me to do one thing. so chill dudes. start thinking for yourselves if youre still in high school and if you are getting peer pressured, your friends aren't friends.
Dude peekaboo
Yeah.
Posted by Peek (Member # 7688) on :
...and sex isn't evil, so chill my dudes. i dont care how old you are, if you are doing it for the right reasons (your own personal reasons) and being safe about it, you aren't a bad person or someone doing a bad thing. just be yourself, do it for yourself and the right reasons for you, and protect yourselves.
Dude peekaboo
Yeah.
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
quote:But Tres, if they hadn't told you, you couldn't have been sure. There really isn't any indicator, one way or another.
Yes, I agreed with that. You can't tell whether or not someone is a virgin by looking at them.
But that doesn't mean having premarital sex (particularly as teenagers) doesn't potentially alter one's behavior or attitudes in negative ways.
quote:if you are doing it for the right reasons (your own personal reasons) and being safe about it
1. A "personal reason" is not necessarily a right reason. "Because one wants to make their ex-girlfriend jealous" is a personal reason - that doesn't make it a right reason.
2. You aren't being safe about it unless you are married or equivalently committed to a single relationship. Otherwise most of the dangers are present.
[ April 01, 2006, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: Xaposert ]
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
POTENTIALLY, any number of behaviors could affect someone in negative ways.
-pH
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by Xaposert:
But that doesn't mean having premarital sex (particularly as teenagers) doesn't potentially alter one's behavior or attitudes in negative ways.
Or positive ways.
Sex is a powerful, powerful gift. Anything that powerful has its dangers. You can never make sex "safe". Even if you are married.
But it is a good gift. To deny its goodness carries its own potential for hurt and perversion. And rather than preparing us to face both the dangers and the joys of sex, it makes us afraid and confused.
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
How so? What great positives does premarital sex contribute to one's life in the long run that it is worth the dangers and problems inevitably associated with it?
I've been told doing drugs is a great experience too, and that I shouldn't deny it's goodness. But I'm inclined to believe something needs to offer more than a few brief moments of extreme satisfaction to justify far more permanent long term dangers.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by Xaposert: How so? What great positives does premarital sex contribute to one's life in the long run that it is worth the dangers and problems inevitably associated with it?
I've been told doing drugs is a great experience too, and that I shouldn't deny it's goodness. But I'm inclined to believe something needs to offer more than a few brief moments of extreme satisfaction to justify far more permanent long term dangers.
I would imagine it contributes many of the same positives that sex between married people does, a physical expression of love, comfort, joy tenderness, intimacy, etc.
For some of us, all sex - premarital or not - does offer more than "a few brief moments of extreme satisfaction."
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
quote:I would imagine it contributes many of the same positives that sex between married people does, a physical expression of love, comfort, joy tenderness, intimacy, etc.
Yes, but there are plenty of other safer and often longer-lasting means of expressing those same things. I suspect there's a problem if you need sex to express love, comfort, joy, tenderness, and intimacy in a realtionship. What's so uniquely valuable about sex that it's worth risking unwanted pregnancies, STDs, relationship troubles, etc. and that one would not be willing to wait until having a more permanent married relationship in which most of those problems are rectified?
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Again, the same things that are uniquely valuable for sex in general. And marriage is not a guarantee against unwanted pregnancies, STD's or relationship troubles.
And not everyone gets married.
Posted by Kristen (Member # 9200) on :
quote:What's so uniquely valuable about sex that it's worth risking unwanted pregnancies, STDs, relationship troubles, etc. and that one would not be willing to wait until having a more permanent married relationship in which most of those problems are rectified?
This really seems to be indicative of the attitude taught in most sex education classes eg. having sex creates a domino effect of bad consequences. It certainly can have significant consequences, but whether they are horrible, avoidable, or mangeable is an individual decision.
Most of those problems you mentioned are extremely unlikely to occur in mature healthy, trusting relationship in the first place: you can get tested for STDs, the two of you can have a policy about pregnancy, and if the relationship is stable, I'm pretty sure having sex would only make the two individuals closer.
Granted, the people in the relationship could be married, they could be adults who are not at that point in their lives when they want to marry, or they could be a homosexual couple in the deep south . I definitely agree with kmbboots here.
X, those problems you mention are real, but they deal more with the character and maturity of the people involved rather than the status of the relationship.
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
If you are married you are generally capable of taking care of a child. If you are married you should know if your spouse has an STD. If you are married you are not going from relationship to relationship, so that issue is out. If you are married there is no risk of one-night stands. If you are married you can be pretty certain your physical expression of intimacy is matched by true feelings.
And if one doesn't marry, I don't see why they should think they should have sex anyway. I'm sure not getting married has benefits, but it also entails sacrificing the benefits of marriage. I don't think not having sex is the end of the world.
quote:Most of those problems you mentioned are extremely unlikely to occur in mature healthy, trusting relationship in the first place: you can get tested for STDs, the two of you can have a policy about pregnancy, and if the relationship is stable, I'm pretty sure having sex would only make the two individuals closer.
I'm not sure the relationship is "stable" unless it is a marriage or something equivalent. Otherwise they can usually break up pretty quickly and easily, leaving things like children in the middle. And I'd think very few teenage relationships qualify as stable.
Posted by Chungwa (Member # 6421) on :
I'm a little surprised at this notion that premarital sex can only negatively affect the people doing it.
I said this earlier, but my sexual experiences have been very positive (I said only positive, which I suppose is making a rather large claim, considering how big of an issue sex is). I'm also not with the person who I first had sex with, so I'm not in some sort of "we'll be together forever" stage (I'm just speaking about myself here, I'm not saying people in their first relationship are naive).
I think this really gets back to different things working for different people. Sometimes I'm sure premarital sex can have very negative effects. But for some people it is an extremely rewarding and enjoyable (both physically and emotionally) experience.
Edit: So if someone doesn't want to get married they don't deserve to have sex?
That's a very interesting judgment.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by Xaposert: [QB] If you are married you are generally capable of taking care of a child. If you are married you should know if your spouse has an STD. If you are married you are not going from relationship to relationship, so that issue is out. If you are married there is no risk of one-night stands. If you are married you can be pretty certain your physical expression of intimacy is matched by true feelings.
Those things are neither always true for married people, nor always untrue for unmarried people. Do you really think that married people don't have one-night stands? And my physical expression of intimacy is matched by true feelings.
quote: And if one doesn't marry, I don't see why they should think they should have sex anyway. I'm sure not getting married has benefits, but it also entails sacrificing the benefits of marriage. I don't think not having sex is the end of the world.
I don't think it would be the "end of the world" either, but my life would be poorer. Why, exactly, should I deny myself and my partner that joy?
Posted by Kristen (Member # 9200) on :
Xapo:
I do think you are right in that married couples, by the nature of their relationship are in a far better position to deal with or avoid the consequences of sex than teenagers. However, as I have been saying, that depends on the individuals involved. There are many heart-breaking AIDs stories where a wife contracted it from her cheating husband and unwanted pregnancies when the couple was far too poor to support the child.
While, in general, teenagers are probably not as well-equipped to make the choice to have sex, there is no reason to assume that covers all of them.
Also: When you think of sex as being a benefit of marriage, realize that in most cultures, it wasn't. More specifically, for women it was a benefit of marriage but not for men. Complete purity of the male before marriage is a relatively new concept in mass culture (obviously, it differs with religion etc). It was ideal, of course, but not unacceptable if not. So if you think that sex is an intrinsic part of marriage that is obviously cool as it's your belief, but in no way is it a universal or historical standard.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
(making a mental note of whom to invite to the next orgy)
Seriously, it seems as though people are making two assumptions here to which I most strenously object. That a) married sex is somehow magically "safe". Thinking that once you are married everything will automatically work out is dangerous. And b) that non-marital sex is necessarily careless, selfish, and empty of any deep or profound love.
[ April 03, 2006, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: kmbboots ]
Posted by theresa51282 (Member # 8037) on :
quote: And if one doesn't marry, I don't see why they should think they should have sex anyway. I'm sure not getting married has benefits, but it also entails sacrificing the benefits of marriage. I don't think not having sex is the end of the world.
I don't get this paragraph at all. Why should someone unmarried have to sacrifice anything simply because that thing is also enjoyed in a marriage? Because people in marriages share kissing does not mean that unmarried people can't have the same thing. I understand that not having sex isn't the end of the world but I don't understand why having or not having sex is not best made on an individual case by case basis rather than based upon broad generalities. Being unmarried does not equate to being promiscuous or irresponsible. I think with the ever increasing age of marriage, the notion that sex should only be for within a marriage is becoming quite outdated (although I understand religious reasons, I just don't think someone else's religion should effect how others chose to live their lives). I think a thirty something unmarried couple is on average any less equipped to deal with the consequences of sex then the straight out of college newlyweds. Furthermore, I think there are a lot of unmarried couples out there that I have a lot more faith in their ability to be faithful to each other than some married couples I know. The generalities just don't seem to work.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
The thing is, we idealize sex a lot. Just like we seem to believe that people will magically be able to flip the "sex is dirty" mental switch at the drop of a hat when they get married, we for some reason expect that sex is going to be some spectacular, moving event that changes the way one looks at the world and makes a relationship different and magical and starry-eyed fluffy unicorns.
I really don't think it is. Yes, sex is something that's very personal and should be approached with a respectful attitude. But I don't think that your whole world is suddenly going to change because you've had sex.
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I know I made the right decision not to have a serious relationship with another girl (though if the second one had worked out I'd probably be saying the same thing).![[Cool]](cool.gif)
peekaboo