quote:

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What I'd like is your input and ideas about whether I should just keep the status quo and pretend like nothing has happened, or go to church so I can enjoy the benefits but make sure I do not put myself in a position where I mislead others, or just quit going all together.

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quote:

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Originally posted by enochville:

I am not making this decision hastily. Currently, I am not making any change until after we bless our baby in church on July 2nd. All of the family is coming. I think the kindest thing to do for them is at least wait until after that to drop the bomb.

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quote:

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I will be blessing the baby. And you are right that by doing so I am being disingenuous.

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It's far more than just disingenuous -- it's a flat-out lie.
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
enochville, I am so sorry to read of your distress and heartache. It is palpable in your words.

I reached a point in my life in which I no longer accepted the tenets of the faith of my childhood as binding or real. It was a hard time.

I will email you. Meanwhile, I wish you what peace you can find.
 

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Posted by Dante (Member # 1106) on :
 
I'm always a bit bemused by people who suddenly find "proof" that the LDS church isn't true and assume that anyone still a member of the church is such only because he or she hasn't had access to that same "proof."

The "kindest thing" you can do is get out. Immediately. If you feel you have "proof" that Joseph Smith was a fraud and "damning evidence" that the church isn't true, you are doing no one--not yourself nor your family nor anyone else in the ward--any good by pretending. Talk to your bishop, get released from any callings, quit participating in any ordinances, take your name off the membership records (if you wish), but don't pretend to believe in something you don't.
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
enochville, I went through this with the Catholic church after our second child was baptised.
A few weeks later, I received a request for a donation for the building of the new church.
This request turned quickly into a threat. "If we do not receive a donation by April___, you will no longer be a member of this parish."
OK, then, good-bye!
The threat seemed to solidify all my doubts into one thing.
And it was a threat.
So, we wandered, and found the Congregational church. I was raised Methodist(though baptised Catholic-long story), and it felt like coming home to me.
The Mormon church may fel like home to you after a time.
So, my suggestion is just to give it time.
If you baptise your child into the Mormon faith, is that being a hypocrite?
Maybe.
But it may also be a sign that you are more strongly tied to this religion than you think right now, and that you want your children to experience the joys you have experienced.
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
enochville, my dad didn't believe the tenets of the church but believed correctly that it was family oriented to the point of giving our family a structure to be a better family (if that's not redundant enough...). My mother believed.

The result is that to this day, for me, I have a hard time believing that men actually believe in God. Women, no problem. But there is a little voice in the back of my head that says men are just doing it so their families have a good structure for moral education, not because there actually is a God. I think it's far more important that you behave honestly than that you continue on for the sake of your family. Long term, kids can tell you're faking it.

Best of luck. I'm sorry you're going through this.
 

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Posted by enochville (Member # 8815) on :
 
mr_porteiro_head and katharina: You are both right. Integrity is very important to me, but there are things even more important to me. My ranking of important things used to be: 1)God, 2)me, then 3) my wife. Now it is me and my wife. If my wife needs more time, then I'll give it to her. I have made promises to her and strangely she is more important than ever to me. But, over the long haul, I will need to look to my own emotional well-being, and I am not sure which long-term strategy is going to serve me best and I have to weigh in other people's (family and church members) feelings.

Look, this really is a difficult position to be in. Anyway I turn I will be hurting or upsetting many people. And, this condition is not a result of any wrongdoing on my part. I am in this predicament because of the reality that Joseph Smith was never a prophet or seer. I wish the Church were true; oh, how I wish it were true from the depths of my being. I wish the conclusive evidence could be explained away by some different interpretation or questionable evidence. But it can't, so now I have to change my whole worldview and probably hurt some people because I cannot ignore what I now know.

I was a great defender of Mormonism. I was able to help people resolve all kinds of concerns. I was able to find some way to become o.k. with every disturbing truth about Joseph's behavior. I thought that there was nothing to fear, for the Church could withstand any criticism. I am well-read in church history. I had read both volumes of The Papers of Joseph Smith by Dean C. Jessee, the diaries of William Clayton, all 6 volumes of the Comprehensive History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the History of Joseph Smith by His Mother, some of the Journal of Discourses, The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power and The Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power both by D Michael Quinn, Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Bushman, and countless other things including much of the FAIR articles which are written by intelligent, sincere believers in defense against "anti" arguments.

Although I had casually studied the topic that I now know is the Church's Achilles Heel a few times before, every time I looked into it, I was placated by the interpretations of the Mormon apologists. It wasn't until I really thoroughly researched it to help a friend that had left the Church, that I realized that all previous theories to defend Joseph did not fit the data.

I thought the church was bullet-proof, but it is not. So, those of you who are members and don't want to face the trial that I am facing, don't examine too thoroughly the problems that you may hear about. You may examine them moderately if you wish and in most cases be content with the explanations you'll get.

I had what I believed to be a deeply personal relationship with Heavenly Father and Christ. We had been through so many trials together. I believed they had given me peace and comfort through the Holy Spirit and taught me truths. I trusted what I believed to be the Lord completely and thought he had answered my prayers.

To be clear, I do not know whether there is a God anymore. Absolutely knowing that Joseph was not a prophet does not logically rule out God, but in my mind Joseph was the best chance that prophets and revelation from God could be true.

I do not want to be in this mess. I would not wish it on anyone. My only consolation is that the evidence is so solid that I cannot be in limbo suspecting Joseph was not a prophet but not being sure of it. Knowing that for sure helps.

JennaDean: Thank you for expressing empathy.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Please stop stating your beliefs as absolute fact.

Think of how ugly this thread could get if others did the same.
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
If he believes what he says, is it not fact for him?
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

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If he believes what he says, is it not fact for him?

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He is not saying "To me, insert_belief."
 

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Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
 
mph: Please be nice. He's going through a hard time. Don't quibble about the way he phrases things.

Enochville: Have you thought about trying another faith? Maybe you can find the comfort you and your family seeks in another denomination?
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
I'm sorry, Enochville. I went through this as a teenager who was once Seventh Day Adventist and then stopped. It was less difficult for me as I was only a kid and had something to replace the echoing sore hole that losing one's faith can leave...
I'm sorry you are going through this... I hope you find comfort soon.
 

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Posted by enochville (Member # 8815) on :
 
sorry for offending you mr porteiro head. You may insert, "I believe" in front of any of my comments you wish.
 

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Posted by MattB (Member # 1116) on :
 
I think that the ordinances exist to serve us, and not the other way around. If you believe that there may be spiritual benefit for your family in blessing the child - even benefits aside from those that depend on your confidence in the reality of the blessing itself - then you should do it. If not, not.

You have my empathy - I know how tough it can be to reconcile doubt with the pain that comes from the way it disrupts lives.
 

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Posted by I Am The War Chief (Member # 9266) on :
 
Enochville just wanted to say good call on your part. And just because your kids are being blessed as children doesnt mean they cant pick what they wany to be when thier older, FREE WILL KICKS ALL MIGHTY @$$

ps: try giving becoming a reformed jew. Its nice no god fearing or hell, emphasis on enjoying life and celebrating, its a pretty good deal
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Porter, for me, it goes back to Strunk and White and "in my opinion."

Why preface a statement with "In my opinion..."

If it is not your opinion, then you darn well ought not to be saying it, so los the "in my opinion."

Same thing with "to me..." "I believe..."

It is implied.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
There are many times where it is not implied nor meant.

But now I don't think that this thread is one of them.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
enochville, regardless of how you feel about your former faith, I believe blessing your child would be a mistake.

I understand why you don't see a consequence here; after all, if there's no God to offend through sacrilege, why worry about sacrilege?

But in my opinion -- and I'm speaking here as someone who believes that this life and these people are all that's available to us, ever -- these things are still important. Even though these sacred things rest (as far as any of us know) on a foundation of lies or misunderstandings, that doesn't make them any less special, important, or sacred to the people around you -- and these people and their society are all we have.

By entering the temple and blessing your child under false pretenses, you will be knowingly deceiving and gravely disrespecting your friends and family in order to avoid awkwardness. You will also be disrespecting both tradition and ritual, two things that are provably important to the health of any society.

I believe this will do you harm. It's hard enough -- speaking as someone's who's done it -- to decide that the things which you believed underpinned your morality and sense of self to no longer be valid. But it's downright dangerous to then conclude that this morality and self are, having been built on falsehood, meaningless.

Do not bless your child. You will be explicitly rejecting and insulting not only the faith of your acquaintances but the very traditions and beliefs which you once held dear. I can understand why you, as you move through the stages of grief, might want to linger on denial and anger at the moment -- but I don't think it's appropriate to engage in either when presenting your child to the world in which he or she will be moving.
 

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Posted by foundling (Member # 6348) on :
 
Porter, I understand where you're coming from. Someone is not just questioning, but outright calling untrue, something that you "know" to be true. It's not something that anyone wants to hear.
But, enochville believes, with all his heart, that he is stating truth. You cant really argue with that. Why would you even want to?
Your faith is your own, and his lack of faith has nothing to do with that. I dont think that he is delibertely trying to draw people away from the Mormon faith or discourage others from joining. He is simply talking out his own thought process on the matter. Do you really think that now is the time to quible about something that has offended your sensiblities?
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I agree with Porter.
 

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Posted by Sharpie (Member # 482) on :
 
Once upon a time, I wrote long prayers to God every day. I was immersed in the life of the church. Now I am not a believer. The path between those two places was very hard. I was angry and grief-stricken and confused and angry again through that time period. Mostly grief-stricken. I'm thinking of you, Enochville, in this time.

As far as the blessing goes... if it is authentic integrity you are trying to live, at least consider the words of some of the others here who have suggested that you not go through with it. If you intend to be truthful with your child all his/her life, start right away.
 

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Posted by Dante (Member # 1106) on :
 
I think this may be the first time I've read one of TomD's posts in a religion thread that I agreed with almost completely.
 

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Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
Edit: This was started after kat's post. So the I do, too, means agree with Porter.

I do too, actually. Hatrack is a place where people with very diverse opinions try to converse and get along. I think phrasing things as beliefs and opinions instead of facts is one of the most important factors in making that work. I wish more people would take that to heart, both believers and non-believers. In this case, even "I have become convinced that. . . " or "I have stopped believing. . ." would be just as strong a statement, without presenting what follows as fact. Because as convincing as you may find the evidence, you were not there, and you cannot fully know what really happened. No one can.

It's not about cutting someone a break who's going through a hard time. It's about everyone who's involved in the conversation showing respect to the others involved.

enochville, you seem to be most comfortable in a world of black and white. When you joined Hatrack, you made the exact same sort of fact-based, definitive statements, but in support of your religion. Those irritated some people too. I know you're going through an extrememly difficult time. But if you want the support of a community, alienating a large chunk of it is not the way to go. (I am not, incidentally, LDS, or particularly religious of any sort.) I invite you to step into some shades of gray. It's not as easy a place to be, but you may find you end up more comfortable here.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 

quote:

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My wife also now knows the church isn't true and is leaning towards pretending that it is because she would miss all the benefits of membership if she left.

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quote:

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But, enochville believes, with all his heart, that he is stating truth. You cant really argue with that. Why would you even want to?

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quote:

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I think this may be the first time I've read one of TomD's posts in a religion thread that I agreed with almost completely.

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quote:

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Originally posted by enochville:
Yeah, ElJay, some comments by some earlier posters made me think about that and I said as much to my wife.

It is interesting how I am more ready to do away with the whole thing than my wife is even though she believes as I do. I feel that I owe her some consideration and may pretend a little longer for her benefit even if she is acting out of fear. I don't know. It is a lot to sort out.

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So, I am hoping this comes out diplomatically. Is it possible your wife is not 100% on board? I guess if I had decided that the church was definetely not true, I could not keep pretending one day longer. Or pay tithing or perform a calling or anything else. To even pretend would require a small hope that there was still some truth. I understand the support group aspect of the church, but if she can't discuss this life changing aspect with her support group, the support group probably can be replaced with a group that she can actually talk to about her life.
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
Tom, baby blessings are done in sacrament meetings in front of the whole congregation, not in the temple. I think it would still be seriously wrong to perform the ordinance, but at least then he would simply be performing the ordinance unworthily and not also entering the temple unworthily.

And on that same note, enochville, I think you need to be released from your calling in the bishopric immediately. I think it will shake the ward's faith more if you carry on the lie and then come clean than if you admit right now that you have lost your faith. Your bishop deserves to have a counsellor who has a strong testimony, and so does your ward. Without a testimony, you are no longer worthy to hold that calling and to exercise that authority by the Church's standards.
 

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Posted by Sm34rZ (Member # 8609) on :
 
You know, enoch, I think that the reason that you started this thread is because you still doubt that you doubt the church is true. I mean, why else start a thread like this? Why tell any of us what you think? If you were sure and determined, you wouldn't have even bothered to post this -especially since there are LOTS of mormons on this forum and they would likely want to convince you to not do what you're about to do.

So... maybe this is what you may feel is your last chance to not go down this road? I don't know. To me this seems you're saying that you still want to believe its true.

Well, it is. I'm normally not very active on the boards, but I feel oddly compelled to participate in this thread. How do I know the church is true? The Holy Ghost let me know.

My testimony is still growing, and there are doubts every once in a while. But the feelings that I've come to recognize as the Spirit help me know the church is true. When I'm at church, I feel it. During this last general conference I felt it. Reading the scriptures. Praying (with sincirity... when I rush 'em I usually don't get anything).

Look back the last couple of months... How are your prayers? When's the last time you studied the scriptures (Not just read them)? Read the scriptures ? Did you attend conference last week?

Anyway, I think you posted this thread because you still want to believe. That's good: Alma 32: 27

So let that seed grow. Perhaps you've just not been nourishing it latley and it's shrunken... start nourishing it again.

I feel kinda cheezy saying this, but... I know that the church is true, that Joseph Smith was a prophet and that he really did see Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and that he was called to restore His church. Jesus Christ is the savior of the world. You can know (again) that these thigns are true through the Holy Ghost. I say these things in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.
 

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Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
 
Well, since we are apparently doing testimony now... I believe that Joseph Smith was, at the absolute best, a deluded man with hallucinations. He made up a history, couched it in semi-literate pseudo-Biblical babble, and sold a bill of goods to his poor victims. Whose descendants now do their utmost to squash every possibility of doubt, as witness comrade Sm34rz. You've done well in recognising absurdity; do not let the groupthink pull you back.

I say these things in my own name, as one human to another. And if I did believe in a god, I would be extremely careful about claiming to speak for it.
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
Sm34rz was trying to be helpful, King of Men. You're just being nasty.
 

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Posted by Sm34rZ (Member # 8609) on :
 
KoM, I respect your beliefs.

I do believe in God, and that's why I speak of Him. Why should I try and hide that?
 

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Posted by Epictetus (Member # 6235) on :
 
enochville, I really empathise with what you're going through. My crisis of Faith, if you want to call it that, was perhaps not as comprehensive and life changing as yours appears to be, but it's still hard regardless.

If it helps, there's a Latin Phrase I always utter to myself in times of difficulty

Aut viam inveniam aut faciam

I will either find a way, or make one.
 

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Posted by Audeo (Member # 5130) on :
 
KoM has a valid point, in this case. Even though I disagree with him, I can see how his conclusion is the only one he can come to. To believe anything else about Joseph Smith requires a type of evidence that is by its very nature unmeasurable, and therefore unprovable.

Enochville, you've already gotten some sound advice from people on this thread. I'd like to reiterate some of it, and add some of my own. First of all, you should definitely talk to you bishop. Even if you decide never to set foot inside a church building again he deserves to know , but if you decide to continue attending church, then he especially deserves to know your feelings. I don't think you should bless your baby if you don't feel that you have any authority to do so. To do so will make you feel cheaper, and it will only make things worse if when your family and friends realize you didn't believe in it. I do recommend that you continue attending church, at least as long as you continue feel that their are benefits to it.

Personally, when I'm feeling most cynical, I feel that being a member helps push me to become a better person. Traits and qualities that I value are valued by the people I go to church with, and I have a structure to base friendships off of. Furthermore I have an opportunity to help others, and the structure and culture of the church encourages me to do so. It's not that I can't, or others don't, do these things outside of church, but I find that I'm more likely to do it when there are others involved. So when I'm at my most cynical I can admit that the most likely explanation is that Joseph Smith is not a prophet, and that I regularly condition myself to feel 'happy' when I pray or read scriptures, but I always ask myself what difference it makes. Would I be a better person if I didn't go to church? Would I be a happier person if I didn't go to church? The answer to both is no.

The point I'm trying to get across is that an absence of faith does not negate your ability to go church. I don't want to give the idea that I am a social mormon myself. I do have a strong personal testimony, and have other personal, much more spiritual reasons for belonging to the church, but in arguments with people who refuse to accept a form of knowledge outside of the quantifiable forms, I feel there is still an argument to be made for the benefit of religion. I allow for the possibility that I am deluded. I don't think I am, but the possibility does exist. I could also be wrong about the existence of a God altogether, I don't think so, but it's possible. My point is that I'm happier being deluded than I ever could be as a cynic. This might not be true for you, but before you renounce the church all together I ask you to consider what you gain from it, and what you lose from it. It's possible to lead a healthy life without the LDS church, billions of people do it everyday. Perhaps you'll find a spiritual home in another church. I hope whatever you decide to do, you find what makes you and your wife happiest. Good luck.
 

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Posted by enochville (Member # 8815) on :
 
OK, I will asked to be released immediately, talk with my Stake President and Bishop and have my name removed from the Church. That also means that I will not bless my baby in Church.

Contrary to what one poster thought, I did not start this thread because I had some lingering hope that the church might be true. No, I can't help but be certain; I can't knowingly be in denial to myself. And all of you have helped me realize that I should not mislead others into thinking I still believe something I don't. I guess I just needed others to help me get the courage to do what I need to do. It has helped to tell strangers first.

Sm34rZ: I have had no trouble feeling what I previously called the Spirit. I can feel it right now, but it does nothing to resolve my concern because I don't believe that feeling can be relied on as a witness of truth. I now believe that thinking of it as communication from the Spirit was just an interpretation. I had no way of knowing that it was not reliable until within the past two weeks.

I did attend conference this past weekend. It was during conference that I told my wife that I no longer believe that the book of Abraham is scripture, nor that Joseph Smith was a prophet or seer.

I was about to write more, but realized that would be going into my evidence, and I don't want to do that here, but I have and will discuss it through email.
 

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Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 

quote:

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Sm34rZ: I have had no trouble feeling what I previously called the Spirit. I can feel it right now, but it does nothing to resolve my concern because I don't believe that feeling can be relied on as a witness of truth. I now believe that thinking of it as communication from the Spirit was just an interpretation. I had no way of knowing that it was not reliable until within the past two weeks.

---

I know this experience, enochville. Please check your email and respond to me. I'm very interested in a private discussion with you.
 

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Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
enochville, I hope that whatever you eventually decide, it works out as well as possible for you and your family. With all you've gone through recently and continue to go through now I'm sure you don't remember me -- I was the one who took offence in a previous thread you started when you said that anyone who hadn't experienced testimony in the way that LDS use the term had not been looking earnestly enough. As an atheist (former agnostic, former theist) who spent a great deal of time and effort exploring such questions, I obviously had some difficulty with the notion that if only I'd looked harder I would have found god.

I think that mr_porterio_head, katharnia, ElJay, Icarus, and others on this thread are now making essentially the same point that I made back then, only inverted because now you're addressing them in the same way that you previously addressed me. As far as I can tell, they don't like it for exactly the same reasons that I didn't like it. I notice you addressed this near the end of the previous page by suggesting that the reader insert an implied "I believe" to qualify any of your statements that he or she might feel need qualification. I don't think this is a good solution; I think it's important to qualify your own (the "royal" you, here) statements. You certainly aren't the only one who doesn't do this, so don't feel like I'm singling you out.

This doesn't even necessarily mean that you have to explicitly admit the possibility of error: I think there's a difference between saying "Joseph Smith was not a prophet" and saying "I'm certain that Joseph Smith was not a prophet."

Added: I meant to say this and forgot -- your last post, just above Karl's, is the latter and not the former. I didn't want you to feel dogpiled, particularly when you're making a visible effort to take the advice and suggestions of others to heart.

(Also, I wish I could be a fly on the wall for the discussion with Karl, but it isn't any of my business.)

Again, I wish you nothing but the best.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
I'm sorry you're going through this, and I hope you find peace in your journey.
 

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Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
 
I have nothing to really add except to further endorse TomD's remarks and say that staying out of church is the route I have personally taken for the time being over merely disagreeing with a particular, albeit important, church doctrine, not the whole foundation of my belief. Oh, and I'll add a small practical reason-- you can always come back later and do things with a pure and full heart, but you cannot undo a half-hearted, for-show-only ceremony.

Enochville, I feel rather shallow asking this after being so little help, but I'd like to see your evidence out of strict academic interest. My e-mail is in my profile.
 

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Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
 
I would, as well. I tried emailing you through the site and it failed.

Different religions have a different take on this idea, though. Some definitely fall into the "fake it 'til you make it" camp (I think the Jewish faith has a better word for it... I just read about it... like remaining faithful even in doubt) others, not so much.

I have, I think, heard advice to you along both lines from LDS members. It's a thorny issue. For me, I decided I couldn't "play church" while honestly thinking the people around me were well-meaning but deluded.

Tough place to be.
 

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Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 
Let me know if you don't get an email from me. I tried through the Hatrack interface and I don't know if it went through or not.

For what it's worth, I also felt, upon deciding the LDS church was not "true", that neither was The Bible, or anything else related to Christianity, and (later) religion in general. Even so, I toyed with the idea of joining a different church if only to replace the "social" aspect, which up to that point had been almost completely connected with the LDS church. I couldn't ever bring myself to go to another one, for the same reason Olivet states above.

I went through a tough time because suddenly it was like I was a stranger to my friends and family. The ones who loved me the most quietly accepted this "new" me, but even they avoided discussing the issues around my apostasy. Most of the rest of them simply stopped contacting me and just faded away. I went through a period of loneliness and disconnectedness, but eventually I made new friends.

One thing I'd advise you to do in this time of transition is to immediately replace a significant portion of the time you devoted to the church to some other uplifting endeavor, be it charity or self-improvement, and to do it as a family. Do not let the loss of religious faith kill your impulse to do good and to enjoy goodness. Set up your own "church time" and use it to do something uplifting on a regular (weekly) basis as a family. If you can't find a charity to help, or if that isn't fulfilling to you, then you might check out different interests groups (www.meetup.org can give you some ideas and even contacts, though the meetings there tend to be monthly). Or use the time to visit museums, galleries, gardens, anyplace that gives you that feeling you no longer attribute to the Holy Ghost (you know what I mean). If you don't do this, you will quickly find mundane things to eat up the time and it will be infinitely harder to start the habit later. Trust me, I know this.
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
I think the only advice I can say is to give yourself some time, don't go seeking anything else immediately.

I get what KarlEd is saying, but I don't think it's a good idea to immediately jump into something just for the purpose of filling a void. If you do decide to investigate other faiths (and I admit I personally hope you do) then do it slowly, with the same amount of care and attention with which you examined the Mormon faith and then found it lacking. You may find that other faiths are not lacking, and be able to join a different faith and be fulfilled. But that decision certainly needs to be a family one, and before you try to make it you need to give yourself time to reflect and heal. You've been through a traumatic experience, and lost something that used to be very important to you. Set aside time to heal from that trauma.

Best of luck to you and your family.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

quote:

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OK, I will asked to be released immediately, talk with my Stake President and Bishop and have my name removed from the Church.

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quote:

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I recommend that you give it some more time before having your name removed from the church.

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quote:

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Why? Is membership a one-shot deal? Say he changes his mind in five years and wants to re-join the church, will he not be allowed to?

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quote:

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I would think the church would also prefer not to have people on their membership rolls just to fill up space or boost statistics.

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quote:

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I would think the church would also prefer not to have people on their membership rolls just to fill up space or boost statistics.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Belle:
I think the only advice I can say is to give yourself some time, don't go seeking anything else immediately.

I get what KarlEd is saying, but I don't think it's a good idea to immediately jump into something just for the purpose of filling a void. If you do decide to investigate other faiths (and I admit I personally hope you do) then do it slowly, with the same amount of care and attention with which you examined the Mormon faith and then found it lacking. You may find that other faiths are not lacking, and be able to join a different faith and be fulfilled. But that decision certainly needs to be a family one, and before you try to make it you need to give yourself time to reflect and heal. You've been through a traumatic experience, and lost something that used to be very important to you. Set aside time to heal from that trauma.

Best of luck to you and your family.

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But it is my understanding is that it is much more difficult for someone who has officially left the church.

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mph, how is wouldn't think they would different from did think they wouldn't?

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I think this is a case where everyone assuming everyone else's good intentions would go a long way toward understanding one another.

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I know pesonally my church would welcome someone back with open arms and much rejoicing. It's sad to me that yours does not.

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And as you noticed, I have been trying to do just that ever since.

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Yes. I can't speak for MPH, but I really appreciate it.
 

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Posted by Boothby171 (Member # 807) on :
 
Not being a member of any church (now or previously), I don't think that there's much I can sensibly contribute to this thread, except this:

This is, truly, one of the most amazing threads I've ever read on Hatrack. Except for a few minor (and self-correcting) blips here and there, it's stayed on track on a very difficult and sensitive subject. The support, understanding politeness, etc...somebody brought you guys up right, I must say!
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

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Originally posted by twinky:

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And as you noticed, I have been trying to do just that ever since.

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Yes. I can't speak for MPH, but I really appreciate it.

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I can speak for MPH, and I assure you he does as well.
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 

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By entering the temple and blessing your child under false pretenses,

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:murmurs:

Children are blessed in a regular church building, not a temple.
 

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Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
Enochville, best wishes.

Belle, FWIW, as a practicing Mormon I didn't find anything insulting in your posts or questions--I thought they were understandable.

OK, with the qualifier that the following is according to my own understanding and not "official doctrine": As KarlEd mentioned about the statement in his letter, and as mph reinforced, members who leave the church are encouraged to return. However, it is not necessarily an easy process--and not because the church is not welcoming or forgiving. It is difficult because baptism is regarded as a solemn covenant, making the individual responsible before God. Repentance is a part of that process--a broken heart and contrite spirit. Along the same lines, we also believe that sinning in ignorance is quite a different thing from having a full knowledge and departing from it. Thus, the repentance required from a convert for baptism is a different thing than it is for someone who has already made that covenant and then chose to set it aside. ("sinning in ignorance" above might be the wrong choice of words or interpreted as condescending; I don't mean it that way--simply put, in the case of a convert, someone who was not brought up in the Church would not be held accountable for living according to a covenant they'd never made.) Essentially, part of the reason that it is not easy to come back is because the Church does not want to make someone accountable before God unless they have demonstrated that they sincerely intend to remain faithful this time around. The process should be shepherded by loving leaders, and at all stages members should be loving and welcoming. Shunning in any form is not condoned; an excommunicated member is always welcome to attend church. [edited to say that I don't know if this is strictly true if the excommunication was due to abusive behavior that could put others, esp. family members, at risk; really have no idea what policy on that would be.]

I have known people who have been through the re-baptism process, and they felt it was worth it.

[ April 06, 2006, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: Uprooted ]
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
I will be honest...based on comments earlier in this thread, I was under the same assumptions as Belle was, that the LDS church was not a particularly welcome place for people who wished to return.


I also realize that I know little about the LDS church, so I didn't think that I was unequivocly right about that.


I DO understand why the LDS have a different process for inclusion for those who have left the church...they don't want to be a "revolving door", and I can't blame them.


That you, Uprooted, for explaing your take on why, and explaining it a little more in detail.


Enoch, I hope you find the path that is right for you, and I think you are making the right decision....if you no longer believe, then take a break at the very least.


Kwea
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
fwiw, I never asked to have my name removed from church records. I figured it was irrelevant and unnecessary. Or maybe I was just lazy. I was done with church when I left, and didn't believe in God for a long time.

Personally, I wouldn't do anything irrevocable, largely because it's really not important that you do. Perhaps it feels urgent, but other than the immenent blessing, it really isn't.
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 

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Originally posted by Scott R:

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By entering the temple and blessing your child under false pretenses,

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:murmurs:

Children are blessed in a regular church building, not a temple.

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Dude, I said that, like, a page ago.

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D'oh!


 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Two of our children were blessed at home and not at the church building.
 

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Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
I tried to think about my earlier post from the perspective of someone in another Christian denomination and realized I left something out. One reason why leaving the LDS church and/or re-joining it is such a big deal: when you are baptized in the LDS church, you are declaring a belief that it is the true church of Jesus Christ and committing to it. Having your name taken off the rolls is a bigger deal than, say, changing your membership from one Protestant denomination to another. You are basically annulling or cancelling the committments you made at baptism, so to speak. In order to re-join the church you would need to be re-baptized.

Enochville, sorry for the large derails here. I hope that you and your family find peace. I have some friends that went through the same thing a few years back, although they continued to have faith in God and Jesus and ended up joining another Christian church.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 

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In order to re-join the church you would need to be re-baptized.

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Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
Two of our children were blessed at home and not at the church building.

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Originally posted by Jon Boy:
...I don't see any reason why the ordinance would have to be performed in a church building. After all, I've administered the sacrament in people's homes before.

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I wish the Church were true; oh, how I wish it were true from the depths of my being.

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