Hatrack River Forum: Do dreams have mass?

This is topic Do dreams have mass? in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.

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Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :

I was reading the article on Wikipedia on mass and some other things, only to see a link to a page called 'massless'. I found this intriguing and thought 'how could something not have mass?'

Take note I did not read the article. I don't claim to know anything about masslessness (is this a word?). And so once I thought about it I considered well, I suppose dreams are something that might not have mass. Or thoughts.

But then I can visualize thoughts, dreams and ideas and they take up space in my brain. (Which is volume. But how could something have volume without mass?). How could you see something with no mass? Which now leads me to the question:

Do dreams have mass?

Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :

We have to ask what constitutes the dream, first. If we include the particular activity in your brain, sure they have mass, because they have energy.

Of course, do we mean rest mass? Even if so, probably so, though part of it will depend on what we call the dream.

However, almost nothing of what we consider to be important about a dream has any particular physical existence; in that sense they could not be said to have mass.

Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :

Yes, they have mass! Weekday mornings at 6:30 am, Saturday at 5:30 (guitar mass), and twice on Sundays (8:00 am and 11:00 am). Members of the donut ministry will be serving treats between services on every Sunday in the Parish Hall.

Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :

A dream is a pattern of your brain cells. This pattern clearly has a larger energy, since it is vastly out of equilibrium, than the energy your brain cells have in and of themselves. Since mass is equivalent to energy, it is fair to say that consciousness has a mass. I doubt it varies much between dreaming and ordinary waking thought, though.

Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :

Alright then, now that that's answered here's another one as posited above:

Do dreams have physical existence?

And by the way; Thank you KoM, Fugu, and that was great Bob, really great. (Wipes tears fom eye)

Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz:
Yes, they have mass! Weekday mornings at 6:30 am, Saturday at 5:30 (guitar mass), and twice on Sundays (8:00 am and 11:00 am). Members of the donut ministry will be serving treats between services on every Sunday in the Parish Hall.

Way to blow a perfectly good dobie. [Grumble]

Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :

Does a computer program have physical existence? It is no more than a particular pattern of ones and zeroes, or if you prefer, magnetisations and polarisations, in a computer chip. But certainly you could measure the pattern and reproduce it later, if you wanted a really tedious way to do things. Clearly, dreams are a lot more complicated, but I don't see them as any different in principle, with the possible exception that the brain may be chaotic or - less likely - quantum-mechanical in nature. That would make it impossible to reproduce exactly the same dream elsewhere. Still, in the same sense, a weather pattern is impossible to reproduce, being chaotic, and that certainly has physical existence. So, yes.

Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :

quote:
a perfectly good dobie

I'm pretty sure you're using at least one of those words in a manner I'm unfamiliar with.

Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz:
Yes, they have mass! Weekday mornings at 6:30 am, Saturday at 5:30 (guitar mass), and twice on Sundays (8:00 am and 11:00 am). Members of the donut ministry will be serving treats between services on every Sunday in the Parish Hall.

Bob has obviously learned what Methodist churches are like. [Wink]

Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :

Actually, Methodist churches don't have mass.

We do "services"

I was having a Catholic flashback.

As for dreams being "matter" and thus having mass, try this experiment at home:

1) Have a dream
2) Try to use suitably massive objects interact with your dream. Strike yourself about the cranium repeatedly over several nights.
3) Note results.

I know it's possible to change someone's mind with a brick or large rock. I imagine dreams would behave in a similar fashion.

If a massive object can interact with them, it stands to reason that dreams must have mass.

Posted by enochville (Member # 8815) on :

IMHO, neurons have mass, dreams do not. Dreams are the experience and are caused by, but not defined by, neurons firing in the brain.

To me dreams are anologous to stories. Stories do not have mass. Ink and paper have mass, air molecules have mass, and as I said earlier neurons have mass, but stories do not.

Posted by Artemisia Tridentata (Member # 8746) on :

My Honda Dream had mass. And a sweet 150cc two cylinder engine. Sigh! They just don't make them like they used to.

Posted by Ozymandias (Member # 9424) on :

Nissan 240 SX

all i got to say.

Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :

Bob, I was referring to the use of a phrase such as 'donut ministry' and 'guitar' services. [Wink]

All you need to do is add a reference to a coffee shop with a name like Higher Grounds or Holy Grounds to score the trifecta.

Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :

quote:
Originally posted by enochville:
To me dreams are anologous to stories. Stories do not have mass. Ink and paper have mass, air molecules have mass, and as I said earlier neurons have mass, but stories do not.

I think we are "avoiding" the obvious: INFORMATION. Dreams, programs, stories etc are pieces of information. Now, information doesn't have any value, if it isn't INTERPRETED. But to interpret information, you need a medium (neurons, electronic circuits, eyes etc) which implies using mass. Which is to say, dreams in and of themselves do not have MASS, but interpreted dreams do involve mass.

We might see this Universe as a bunch of (sub)nuclear particles, period. But their “random” arrangement does “produce” information (atoms, molecules, CD records, books, magnetic memories etc). So even if information has no mass, it is “something real”, at least as long as more than one individual agree upon its meaning.

I have a dream where all that is said, is understood (correctly) by everyone else. [Big Grin]

Posted by enochville (Member # 8815) on :

suminonA: I don't think any of us would disagree with you there. But the title of this thread asks, "Do dreams have mass?" not "Does the interpretation of dreams involve mass?"

Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :

I have given my opinion (and arguments) on that:

quote:
dreams in and of themselves do not have MASS

Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :

It's like a scientific discussion over "Big Friendly Giant"...

Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :

quote:
Do dreams have physical existence?

Yes. At the very least, they're represented by the movement of electrons.

Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :

quote:
Originally posted by fugu13:
We have to ask what constitutes the dream, first. If we include the particular activity in your brain, sure they have mass, because they have energy.

The question is much deeper than that answer. When one is dreaming (or thinking for that matter), there are a collection of neurons in the brain that are in an excited state. But are these excited neurons the dream? When the dreamer awakes, he could write down the dream on paper. Would the paper then become the dream?

If a paper that has all the details of the dream written on it, isn't the dream why would the excited neurons that make up the dream be the dream? If the paper is the dream, then is it fair to say that the excited neurons have become the paper?

Does an idea cease to exist when no one is thinking it?

Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :

quote:
Does an idea cease to exist when no one is thinking it?

Yes. If it persists, it is a meme and not an idea.

Basically, it all boils down to a need to be precise with your terminology. A dream that has been written down is not a dream but a description of a dream.

Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:

quote:
Does an idea cease to exist when no one is thinking it?
Yes. If it persists, it is a meme and not an idea.

Plato would say that "perfect ideas/concepts" are eternal and transcend our (imperfect) "reality" [Wink]

Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :

You say "Plato," I say "Playtahto."

Posted by Earendil18 (Member # 3180) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
You say "Plato," I say "Playtahto."

Rofl