This is a painful topic for me. I am a lonely person. However, recent events have encouraged me to share this problem and accept advice from others, because clearly I know nothing useful about love and relationships.
As a twenty-one year old, I have never had a serious relationship. I have had a series of flirtations, some physical expression of affection, cuddling, kissing and physical closeness. This is rare for me though, and has only happened with a few women, and always early on in our aquantance.
I think I am a very well liked person. I am outgoing, always talking to everyone and full of jokes and smiles and good humor in the worst of circumstances. I am the kind of person who everyone remembers, even if I don't remember them; in every new encounter, I aim to make my new friend laugh and feel good.
Herein lies the difficulty in my relationships. On first meeting I present a personality which promises to be full to bursting with interesting and witty talk, and an exciting spontaneity. I am that way most when I meet people, but once I get comfortable with them, I would rather reveal a different part of myself: a quieter self which doesn't have all the answers, but only questions and quiet reflective moments. My real friends are ussually people who didn't gravitate to me on first meeting, but rather got to know my many moods over time, and learned that I am changeable in personality, and sensitive to criticism. These forgiving and open souls are my real true friends, who understand me so well, that I often wonder how I could be so lucky.
So I am a person who takes some getting used to. This is really just fine for my personal friends, who seek out my company just as I seek theirs. But what about relationships? What about love?
Its the same problem again with love isn't it? I am not an extremely attractive person. I am not the manliest of men, but I am tall and strong, and healthy looking. When I meet people, I sense that they get a picture of a person who is full of excitement and enthusiasm; and though I am full of these things, I feel that it is easiest to display them to people I don't even know. I am the ultimate people pleaser, like my father, I am a born politician and a diplomat, revealing nothing of myself, except which I calculate will please the person I am meeting.
The problem I always run into is: the girl (or woman lately) who expresses interest in me always finds out that when I am honest and calm, I am not always the same people pleasing friend to all that I appear to be. First impressions are what I am good at, but the first impression which is so promising of one who is full of excitment and intrigue, can be bitterly dissapointing when it comes down to a real relationship, and I find I am hardly as interested as I thought I would be.
In part I think this is all a plot on my part to sabotage any closeness I might feel with another person. I often feel that any woman who would want to be with an imperfect soul like me is somehow defective. If she is too good to be wrong, then I have misled her, and our relationship is a lie I can't live up to, and it embarasses me to talk to her as if she knows the "real" me. The "real" me is not someone I feel anyone should like, because it is free of the people pleasing and excitment of the outward "me."
Recently I went on a few dates with a really lovely girl. She's an actress and singer, and we met at a fellow student's apartment. We went on a date soon after meeting, and she slept over at my apartment that night, as we stayed up very late kissing, drinking wine and watching movies. A few days later, I found myself in her dorm. We were kissing and listening to music, and playfully talking about school and music. It got late, and I began to say that I had a test the next day and had to study. She said "aren't you sleeping over?" I was petrified. I was absolutely horrified at the idea of sleeping over with her that night. I don't understand why, because I was attracted to her and wanted to stay. I had a test the next morning, and I made that my excuse. As she saw me out, I couldn't help but notice how dissapointed and angry she seemed with me. Later a female friend would tell me I had embarassed the girl who had invited me to bed with her, because I made the excuse "about me." The girl never went out with me again, though I called her several times and tried several times to schedule another date, she was always "too busy." When a few months had gone by, I understood that she didn't want to see me.
Is it selfishness that keeps me from extending myself to another person? I feel often that I think no-one would ever want me, or to be with me, because I was nothing that another person couldn't be. Lately I know several women who have seemed to express interest in spending time with me, and I always make excuses to myself that they don't know me, or are just being nice, or are not really interested in me. It always surprises me when male friends tell me that I am getting very strong signals from a woman, because I NEVER seem to notice them! Girls too tell me that such and such a lingering touch or an embrace would never happen by accident; I fear I am too self-centered to notice someone who is really interesting in me.
So there are maybe three women, fellow students, who have expressed similar interest in me over the last few months. How does a normal person go about asking someone out on a date? Keep in mind these might be people i have spent no personal time with, but who know me through many months, or even a few years of casual academic aquantance. How do you know that there is a difference between smiling at a friend and inviting someone to seek you out romantically? I fear I really don't understand that difference at all, least how to act upon it.
[ August 11, 2006, 04:54 AM: Message edited by: Orincoro ]
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
Orincoro, being honest with yourself is the first step towards being honest with the others I think this is the “solution” to your “problem”.
In the case of the lovely girl that invited you to sleep over, you could have admitted that it was too soon for you, that you were not ready to do that at that particular point of your relationship (if that was the case). I think it would have had a much better “impact” on the girl, and she could have even appreciated you for your honesty.
IMHO.
A.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:How does a normal person go about asking someone out on a date?
"Hey <someone>, would you like to go to a movie on Saturday?"
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: Is it selfishness that keeps me from extending myself to another person?
On your second date? No.
Posted by Tristan (Member # 1670) on :
quote:She said "aren't you sleeping over?" I was petrified. I was absolutely horrified at the idea of sleeping over with her that night. I don't understand why, because I was attracted to her and wanted to stay.
Of course you were petrified. You are a virgin. And this girl offered to sleep with you. I don't care how familiar you are with the theory of sex, the first time it is about to happen to you for real is going to hold some terrors. You say you come across as confident and outgoing. That is even worse. Now the girl is going to expect you to take charge and be an amazing lover. And you have never done it before. Doing your homework suddenly seems to be a very attractive alternative.
The key is, as suminonA says, honesty. You could admit that it is too soon for you. But it is going to happen sometime (you hope), and then you have better just tell the truth. It is too late with this particular girl, but the next time you find yourself in a similar situation, simply (hah!) tell the woman that you find her very attractive, that you would love to stay the night but that you are somewhat inexperienced (you don't HAVE to tell you're a virgin) and scared as hell. Make a joke of it if you like. If the woman is worth your time, and is attracted to you (which we hope she is since she asked you to bed), she'll probably be happy to teach you.
And you won't have the pressure to perform like a stud muffin your first time. Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
For the record, "staying over" does not necessarily mean sex is involved. It could mean just that- sleeping over.
Not that that changes anything to do with Orincoro since it's impossible to tell from this what this girl's intentions were. I'm just pointing it out to Tristan.
Posted by Tristan (Member # 1670) on :
You are of course right about that, Teshi, and I considered making a point of that since, for an inexperienced guy, this fact only increases any anxiety. What ARE her intentions? Does she expect me to make a move? What if I make a move and she rebuffs me? Help!!!
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Well, if she said "sleep over," which doesn't necessarily imply sex, it would have been possibly to sleep over and, if she tried anything, say it was just too soon.
I'm telling you, chicks dig that. And as for you being inexperienced...it's possible that she is, as well.
At any rate, I get what you mean about people being drawn to your public face but not your private one. I generally come off as a fun, outgoing, laid-back tomboy. I get stuck being "the cool chick." But I'm still a girl! I'm not one of your guy friends that just happens to have boobs that you can make out with. I still like to wear dresses sometimes and sleep with a bajillion stuffed animals.
I think the key there is just to keep looking until you find someone who likes BOTH sides, not just one or the other.
-pH
Posted by Swampjedi (Member # 7374) on :
pH, I have to say I really laughed at your third paragraph. Too funny.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
I certainly don't know you Orinoco, so perhaps what I'm saying is false, but from your post it seems that you're looking for the wrong kind of people. You say that your close friends are not the type of people that are drawn to you at first. The people that you date are drawn to you at first but nothing ever lasts with them. Perhaps you should aim to find girls that are more like your friends.
Posted by Dante (Member # 1106) on :
quote:I'm not one of your guy friends that just happens to have boobs that you can make out with.
Trying to parse this sentence has saved some part of a day I had rued.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dante:
quote:I'm not one of your guy friends that just happens to have boobs that you can make out with.
Trying to parse this sentence has saved some part of a day I had rued.
*head asplodes*
--j_k
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Well I understood the sentence... I think.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
You're thinking too much. Why do you imagine the private self and the public self are two different people? Unless you've got multiple personality disorder, they're both the same person.
You've decided that you have to be flashy and exciting in public, and that you can't be that in private. Obviously that's not true. You have the skills to be fun and entertaining and interesting all the time. I'm not suggesting that you should act like "one of the guys" with a date, but you can keep that mystery and interest going in your personal life.
Going on a date is not about dumping your interesting side and sharing all your dark secrets, being boring, and expecting to be comforted and entertained. If your personality changes completely when you're with someone you care about, or you want to care about, that's probably a large part of your problem.
I would suggest working on differentiating yourself less between public and private. There is a difference, but there needs to be more overlap. The public self doesn't have to be Mr. Excitement, always pleasing others and the private self should not be Mr. Meek, quietly waiting for the woman to find your faults and dump you.
Work on being self confident, happy, and interesting in all circumstances. You'll feel better about yourself, so you won't feel the need to self-destruct your dates.
Posted by SoaPiNuReYe (Member # 9144) on :
How to ask a chick out:
Get her in a conversation with you at some place where there's lots of people but at the moment its just you and her talking.(like a movie or a football game). Then just make it all spontaneous on her, that way you don't flush up. You shouldn't even know you're asking her out until it happens. Then just continue to conversation. Eventually the chick will excuse herself and go running to her girlfriends to tell the news. Trust me, I've done it loads of times.
Posted by Kristen (Member # 9200) on :
That girl sounds a bit sketchy to me--if she got that huffy about you having to study and leave her (a legitimate excuse!), imagine the sorts of emotional demands she would make in a relationship.
However, here's some practical advice to get you by: Ask her if she wants to grab coffee, especially if it's at that moment. It's totally casual and not date-seeming, but gives you an opportunity for one-on-one flirting and talking. And, if that goes well, make plans for another day or night. Or, find out if she's going to X social event, and accidentaly 'run into her'.
I'm really standoffish, so don't consider me the norm, but if a guy I hardly knew formally asked me out, I would feel awkward, pressured, and not willing to get to know him because it would be putting me in a tough position as his feelings would be clear and I'd be expected to respond somehow. But, if he suggested grabbing coffee, meeting at a party, walking me home, or walking me to my next class, I would feel a lot more comfortable.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
*gets huffy when boyfriend has to work late when he's promised to come over...*
-pH
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
People make asking someone out a lot more complicated than it is. Chat with someone you are attracted for for 5-10 minutes, then ask her for her number. That's it. (carry a pen - a working pen - and a piece of paper with you, so if you meet a nice girl, you can get her number).
If she gives you her number, she's interested in you, and you can call her in a few days and ask her on a date.
If she doesn't give you her number, or tries to come up with an excuse why she can't (I don't have a phone, I forgot it, um... er...) then she's not interested. Say, "That's ok. Thanks anyway." and walk away.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:If she gives you her number, she's interested in you,
Not necessarily...I'm in a relationship over the course of which I have given my number out on several occasions. I generally do try to mention that I have a boyfriend, but I don't want to say it in a presumptuous, bitchy way...as though I just KNOW that EVERYONE WANTS ME so I have to tell them all the time that I have a boyfriend. So sometimes, I have trouble working it into the conversation.
-pH
Posted by Kristen (Member # 9200) on :
Also Mighty, you forget that there are people like me who hate conflict and would rather give my number and passively ignore calls than have to make a bumbling, awkward, excuse why I don't want him to.
Posted by SoaPiNuReYe (Member # 9144) on :
I wouldn't walk away after rejection because that's sort of sending the wrong message. You want to give the girl the impression that you care for her and are willing to sit in the dugout for a few innings.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
pH: Why are you giving out your number? Guys ask for a number because they're interested in you. The next time a guy asks, just say, "I have a boyfriend." That's not being presumptuous, that's info that a guy wants, so he doesn't keep flirting with you.
Kristen: If a girl gives you her number but never answers the phone, again, you know she's not interested. No biggie. Better to get the number and call to find out.
SoaPiNuReYe: I completely disagree. I don't want to date any woman who wants to put me in the dugout. You don't "care for her enough" to put up with rejection. First of all, you don't know her yet, so you can't "care for her." Second, she rejected you. She doesn't want to go on a date. You don't trick people into dating you, or wear down their resolve. You date people who are attracted to you.
That's selling yourself short. If she is not interested enough to give you her number, that's cool. You go and find a woman who is interested enough in you to give you her number.
Don't waste your time on someone who you have to convince to like you. You have to think of yourself as a valuable dating prospect.
Think about it this way: We've all seen someone and though, "Wow, what a hottie! If she asked me on a date right now, I'd be an idiot to say no." (the same applies to women seeing guys)
That's the kind of response you want from the other person. You want them to see you walking over and think, "Oh my god. I hope he asks me out."
Posted by Dante (Member # 1106) on :
You know, I have never asked a girl for her number. Partly it's because I'm a pretty low-key, socially non-aggressive guy, but mainly it's because I don't really have much interest in dating a woman I don't--to some extent--know. And by "to some extent" I mean "more than a 5- or 10-minute conversation." I only ask out people that I've met at church, school, work, etc. and gotten to know a little.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I give out my number because I want more people to hang out with. My boyfriend works all the damn time. It's always so late by the time he can come over that we like never get to go out to the movies or anything. So I go with other people. He knows about it, and he knows nothing is going to happen. I think he's just glad I'm getting out of the house. But I generally do find a way to mention having a boyfriend when the guy calls, if I didn't get to before.
-pH
Posted by SoaPiNuReYe (Member # 9144) on :
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: SoaPiNuReYe: I completely disagree. I don't want to date any woman who wants to put me in the dugout. You don't "care for her enough" to put up with rejection. First of all, you don't know her yet, so you can't "care for her." Second, she rejected you. She doesn't want to go on a date. You don't trick people into dating you, or wear down their resolve. You date people who are attracted to you.
That's selling yourself short. If she is not interested enough to give you her number, that's cool. You go and find a woman who is interested enough in you to give you her number.
Don't waste your time on someone who you have to convince to like you. You have to think of yourself as a valuable dating prospect.
Think about it this way: We've all seen someone and though, "Wow, what a hottie! If she asked me on a date right now, I'd be an idiot to say no." (the same applies to women seeing guys)
That's the kind of response you want from the other person. You want them to see you walking over and think, "Oh my god. I hope he asks me out."
Dude trust me, the longer it takes for her to realize that you're better than the guy she has now, the more she will want to go out with you, just to make up for the lost time. You might disagree, but I've had a couple girlfriends throughout this school year and I know from expierence that just because the girl doesn't like you now, she might later on. I'm not saying you should ask out a girl the first time you meet her, I'm just saying that if she's single and you know her then she is fair game.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Do you really want to be in...what's essentially a pissing contest with whatever guy she's into? I mean, if you're convincing her to like you, it puts you in a bad position. And on top of that, if she's leaving some other guy for you...why wouldn't she leave you for another guy?
-pH
Posted by Kristen (Member # 9200) on :
Perhaps I am too cynical because I spent the entirety of last night at the bars where rich singles in Chicago hang out, but this all seems so impersonal. It's like boys are approaching it like a game now:
Cute girl: check. Phone number: Check. Proceed to: asking her out. It's all so removed from her personality and temperament.
There is probably a way to approach me where I would melt instantly, but I bet it's a lot different than my friends and the rest of the girls in the world. My best advice would be to get to know her, and see what happens. Treat her like a person not a conquest.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Well, Chicago is lame anyway.
That's your problem right there.
-pH
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
quote:Dude trust me, the longer it takes for her to realize that you're better than the guy she has now, the more she will want to go out with you, just to make up for the lost time. You might disagree, but I've had a couple girlfriends throughout this school year and I know from expierence that just because the girl doesn't like you now, she might later on. I'm not saying you should ask out a girl the first time you meet her, I'm just saying that if she's single and you know her then she is fair game.
First off, don't waste your time with women who already have boyfriends. There are plenty who are available. Why would you want a girl on the rebound?
You tell me that you've had a couple of girlfriends who you convinced to like you by waiting in the dugout. "Had a couple" tells me that they are not with you now. I would guess that one of the reasons is that they didn't like you that much to begin with, and you had to convince them to go out with you.
If it takes a long time for someone to realize that they like you, then they probably don't like you that much.
I'm saying you SHOULD ask a girl out the first time you meet her. Dating someone is about getting to know them better. You don't have to know someone all that well to ask them on a date. If you're attracted to her, and she's attracted to you, you go on a date and see if there's anything to work with.
Disclaimer: I don't know what age any of the people in this discussion are, so I'll clarify that this applies best to people in their mid 20s or older. When you're 16-21, it's all just practice anyway.
Posted by SoaPiNuReYe (Member # 9144) on :
Why ask someone out when you just met her? In my opinion that would come off as wierd. Unless you're at a club or party or someother place where everyone has enough alcohol in them to say yes to such a situation I feel that your strategy won't work. I've asked out girls the first time I've met them, but only for bets and jokes and such. Never for real, because I think that if they say no, then it shuts you down for good with that girl. If you've known a girl for a couple years then you obviously have better prospects with them, whether they are single or not. I don't know where you went to school or where you grew up, but where I'm from in Virginia girls talk about guys who ask them out the first time they've met. And it's never good.
Posted by Kristen (Member # 9200) on :
pH: It's Chicago guys, not Chicago, that are lame. They get no defense from me.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
If you only ask girls out the first time you meet them as a bet or a joke, then your attitude is what's making you fail.
Seriously, look at what you just said. If you and a bunch of guys you know go around asking women on dates as jokes, or on a bet, is it any wonder why the women speak so poorly about it?
How can you give dating advice when you ask people on dates as a joke?
You know the girls who don't talk poorly about guys who asked them for their number the first time they met? The girls who said yes, and are dating the guy.
Posted by SoaPiNuReYe (Member # 9144) on :
First off I've done it as a joke once and the girl said yes and the relationship quickly went downhill after the first couple of weeks.
Second, I don't date chicks the day I meet them, partially because of that and partially because I know girls who have gone out with guys they just met, with disatorous results and I don't want to get hurt like they did. I have heard them talk with guys they have just met for hours, only to turn around and tell me how much of a retard they think that person is. I respect your opinion, because you're you and I'm me. My belief is however, that you're much better off with someone you have known for a couple of months, rather than someone you have just met. Your way may get you a short-term relationship, but mine works out in the long run.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Going on a date isn't the same as being in a relationship. Dating IS getting to know someone.
I think you're making it too complicated. You meet someone, you're both attracted to each other. You go on a date. If it doesn't go well, you don't go out on any more dates. You ask someone else on a date. Where's the disastrous results?
If you go on four of five dates with someone, now you've know them a month, you haven't "just met."
You have to look at dating as an opportunity to get to know someone, and see if you like them. Asking someone on a date is not the same as asking them to be your long-term, committed girlfriend.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Yeah, that's like wife-hunting.
-pH
Posted by SoaPiNuReYe (Member # 9144) on :
Dude when i said relationship i didnt necesarily mean like girlfriend or wife. I meant that if you've known the girl longer and the date or dates didnt go so well, there is more of a chance of the two of you still being friends rather than the girl think you're a jerk just because you feel different about a certain issue than she does, or because you're poor and shes rich.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I don't know about the other Hatrack ladies, but I don't think guys are jerks until....they're jerks. Which doesn't mean having a differing opinion or being poor. It means generally behaving like an ass. In which case, I don't want to be friends with that person anyway.
-pH
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I hate love... I cannot win at it at all...
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Well SoaPiNuReYe, you've got some very different views on dating than I have. I've gone on lots of dates, and if the girl and I don't hit it off, we stop dating. If I see her, I'll say hi, but I'm not going to make an effort to hang out with her and "just be friends."
I've got plenty of friends. When I'm asking a girl on a date, it's because I want to date her, not because I want to maybe just be friends.
I have a long-term girlfriend by the way, I'm speaking of back when I was still dating.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Well, if she said "sleep over," which doesn't necessarily imply sex, it would have been possibly to sleep over and, if she tried anything, say it was just too soon.
I'm telling you, chicks dig that.
Are you saying that chicks dig it when they invite men to spend the night on their second date, then make overly aggressive advances which are rebuffed?
Because that has not been my experience.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: If you go on four of five dates with someone, now you've know them a month, you haven't "just met."
You have to look at dating as an opportunity to get to know someone, and see if you like them. Asking someone on a date is not the same as asking them to be your long-term, committed girlfriend.
I have trouble getting to even this part of the equations sometimes. For instance, I am attracted to someone I know through work or school, and I might want to ask them out. Its quite possible that I will spend two hours with them and they will dislike me, or we will dislike eachother, and then the awkwardness sets in.
I get a distinctly seedy feeling from trying to ask out people I just met, and I don't know exactly why. I do know that I would always rather be someone's friend than date them, because it seems "safer" and I know it is easier. The obvious problem there is that then we're friends, and she thinks I'm not interested, because I have made a point of NOT expressing interest. Part of me thinks that if we are friends, then we're also equals, but the moment I ask them out, I am the "agressor."
Sometimes I get the feeling that a girl changes alot when you ask her out. I have been on dates with girls I met who's outgoing energy at first was a foil for my own, but turned out to be quiet and shy in private... just like I am. Obviously this makes for quiet and dissapointing dates, because either I am "on" and full of wit and energry, or I am "off" and we don't talk, and I hate that.
I am known by friends to be an exceptionally outsI guepoken and funny person. Many friends have said that I am the funniest person they know. The strange thing is that with some people I am NEVER funny. I hate spending time with these people because my sense of comfort and familiarity is enhanced when I say to a person "Do you KNOW what I MEAN???" and they say "YES!" The worst aquaintances are the one's who say "not really," or even "I guess so..." Its not especially that I don't like to be wrong, but I do like people to be interested in the conversation. The best friendships are with people who turn it around on me and challenge me to think about things their way.
Anyway, it always seems that "date behavior," means that my date will be non-commital and shy, and I will spend the whole date grasping at things to talk about, or being quiet and boring. I have things to talk about, I love to talk and listen (obviously), but sometimes I feel like I'm running on a treadmill next to my date, who just doesn't appear to be into it. If I am quiet and reserved, then I feel stupid and false, and I couldn't be with someone who was attracted to the me with nothing to say. Though I am politically liberal and non-religious, my real values are incredibly conservative. My personal style is subdued and innexpensive, and flamboyant displays of style or possessions make me laugh or feel uncomfortable with people. I have a hard time looking someone in the eye and talking to them like an adult if they subscribe to some very distinctive fashion trend, or drive a very ostentatious car, or talk in an affected manner.
I suppose it is this conservatism in my personal habits which make me feel uncomfortable with people, because though I am outgoing and witty, I am also not commited to any one ideal, but am rather interested in all things that life has to offer. This makes me enthusiastic about everything, and fully commited to nothing. I think to a new person this might make me seem false or shallow, because I don't have any deeply partisan commitments to any asthetic or viewpoint. I am not trying to say I am "just to understanding," because I'm not really, but I don't ever commit to one view of the world or other people, and maybe I should do that.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Honestly, I think the most romantically repellent aspect of your personality might well be your tendency to overthink your own habits.
Just go with the flow, Orincoro.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
So Tom, what's the most romantically repellent aspect of my personality?
Or does this deserve its own thread?
You never call, you never write.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Bob
Well Tom I am making a special effort to be introspective at the moment, but I think you may be right.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Honestly, I think the most romantically repellent aspect of your personality might well be your tendency to overthink your own habits.
Just go with the flow, Orincoro.
Sail away, sail away, sail away!
At any rate, I find it very attractive when men don't try to sleep with me all the time, even if we're having a slumber party. Mostly because I do not enjoy constantly having to fend hands away.
-pH
Posted by Dante (Member # 1106) on :
quote:Because that has not been my experience.
C'mon, Tom. When have you rebuffed any overly aggressive advances?
Seriously, though, I have been in a position in which the girl I was dating was more "aggressive" and I was the one engaging in pH-style hand-fending. And you know what? She did, in fact, dig it. If anything, it increased her level of interest.
Now, if only it had been my master plan all along just to get some, it would have been genius on my part.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Dante! I thought you loved me!
-pH
Posted by Dante (Member # 1106) on :
Aw, Pearce. Tell you what--I promise that you will never be on the receiving end of one of my fends.
Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
My advice is this: stop trying. Period. Don't actively seek girls out, at least for a short period of time. Every time you're in a group, though, pay attention to whether you keep finding yourself glancing over at the girl in the corner, or trying particularly hard to get a laugh out of her. If not, then the girl for you probably isn't in that particular group. That's fine. If you start getting to know a girl better as friends, and find that you aren't particularly attracted to her, don't look at it as a failure. It just means that you aren't right for each other. If you do find that you keep being drawn to her, don't be afraid to take things slowly. You seem to be the opposite of me, in that I tend to be really quiet around people when I first meet them, and then open up and get more talkative when I'm around them more and get more comfortable with them. This tends to happen over the course of a few weeks, or even months. It may be that you need to move slowly so that girls can see that you have many sides to your personality, and that all of them are you, rather than seeing a sudden, jolting change in the way you act. If you are suddenly going from the life of the party to being really quiet, she may not interpret that as you being more comfortable and showing her the less public side of yourself. She may see it as you being uncomfortable around her, or even not liking being around her. If you get to know her gradually, and let her see both sides of you before you start really dating, then it won't be as much of a shock. I don't know if this makes much sense, I guess I'm just trying to say, don't stress so much, don't look so hard, and be yourself (all of yourself) around girls you might be interested in.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
quote:I am known by friends to be an exceptionally outspoken and funny person. Many friends have said that I am the funniest person they know. The strange thing is that with some people I am NEVER funny. I hate spending time with these people because my sense of comfort and familiarity is enhanced when I say to a person "Do you KNOW what I MEAN???" and they say "YES!"
I like MidnightBlue's advice. I think that a relationship is worth the hard work once you've committed to it, but the initial few dates should be the time of discovery when you realize that this person "gets" you or doesn't. If they don't "get" you, it's not a failing on either of your part, it's just not a good fit and you should let it go.
You are young. There is no hurry. If you were someone looking to satisfy lust, just about anyone could give you a roadmap; but you're looking for love (which, by the way, kicks lust's butt for excitement and satisfaction everyday and twice on Sunday). Love is worth the wait.
The only true rule I know about finding love is that you need to be open to it when you find it or it finds you.
Posted by suminonA (Member # 8757) on :
The only "true" rule I know about this is: "Love shows up when least expected"
A.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
I like the advice which requires me to do nothing.
Actually it doesn't it requires a tremendous effort on my part, but it is a good idea anyway. I suppose I haven't found that person who I really like to be with, and would want to be with romantically. The getting to know my own reactions to others is a good idea too midnightblue, so I will use that. Pay attention to my own comfort level with people: am I forcing myself to spend time with someone? Am I refusing to let myself open up to someone who DOES interest me?
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Orincoro: Here's my advice to you: Get to know yourself better. Become more comfortable with who you are. You don't have to be "On" or "Off." Both the quiet side and the expressive side are parts of your personality. You can be quiet and introspective, while still being interesting and funny and entertaining.
Once you get more confidence in yourself, and feel more comfortable with the girls you go out with, so that you don't feel like an aggressor or feel that you have to behave a certain way, you'll be able to just have fun and go with the flow.
Dates should be fun. You have to put a little work into it, but it's not predatory, and it's not a job interview. You just want to have a good time with someone and get to know them better.
One last piece of advice. You mentioned a two hour date. Don't go on a two hour date until the third or fourth date. First date and second date should be fun and easy and fairly quick. Try a cup of coffee, or a round of mini-golf.
You want to hang out for half an hour to an hour, in a casual place so you can both relax and there's no pressure. If things don't go so hot, you can call it a night after the coffee or the last putt, no hard feelings.
No need to torture each other for another hour and a half if you're not having fun. If things go well, you leave on an up note, and you call her in a few days to set up another date. If things go super awesome, you can extend the date a little, get some food or take a walk.
If you see dating as a scary chore, you're not going to have fun or come off well. If you look it as an adventure, a way to meet someone new, it's not a big deal.
You should be able to have a decent conversation with just about anyone for half an hour over coffee.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I say there's no limit, really, when it comes to dates or...when you call the person after...
I've been on a lot of first few dates that have ended up being pretty long, but I guess it depends on you and how you work. I am, how you say, feisty.
I'd say it's better to relax, not girlfriend-hunt or wife-hunt, and just try to have a good time without worrying about the dating regulations.
-pH
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Frankie say Relax!
Sorry, I got nothing. I have a lot of the same problems, and you probably wouldn't like my solution -- resigning yourself to dying alone.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH: I'd say it's better to relax, not girlfriend-hunt or wife-hunt, and just try to have a good time without worrying about the dating regulations.
Absolutely. girlfriend* or wife hunting has a desperate quality to it, and nothing is more unattractive than desperation. Well, maybe gaping, stinking, maggot ridden sores on exposed parts of the body are more unattractive, but desperation is a close second.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
quote:Originally posted by suminonA: The only "true" rule I know about this is: "Love shows up when least expected"
A.
It does, and that's what makes me so angry! Posted by OlavMah (Member # 756) on :
You know, I'm with you, Orincoro. I don't understand why the girl you first posted about refused to return your calls. Even if you did offend her (and I don't get how), anyone interested in a relationship needs to work through the occasional offense. I admit it, I'm dense when it comes to understanding the emotions of my own sex. I'm all for expression of emotion in declarative sentences.
Funnily enough, I married a guy who'd never had a serious relationship, who often complains about not understanding other people, and whose insides don't match his outside (people assume he's shy when they meet him. Then they see him around me and think that he's got an insane sense of humor and loves to babble away. Myself, I'm not sure if he's got a good sense of humor, or if he's just warped at some fundamental level.)
Suffice it to say, you probably won't be single forever. And in a way, you're lucky. At least you seem to be able to filter people very early on. People who don't like the real you disappear. Not fun while it's happening, but wonderful when you meet that someone who sticks around.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
It doesn't seem like they knew each other THAT well, though. I mean, it's not a relationship. And before it turns into a relationship, the chances of being ditched because of offending the other person are pretty high.
...and then when it IS a relationship, you get to listen to me leaving you angry voicemail!
-pH
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
I think the rule that "Love shows up when least expected" applies mostly when you're acting like a spaz trying to get someone to like you. The more relaxed you are, the more you are acting like yourself, the more attractive you are. So when you stop "trying", you're more likely to get a date.
Note that trying is in quotes. By this I don't mean you literally stop making an effort, or that you don't go on dates. I mean you don't make a huge deal about the date.
The date should just be fun. You go on a date with the intent to get to know someone a little better and have a good time with them. Don't go on a date interviewing the other person for the open girlfriend job you're trying to fill.
At the same time, you shouldn't stop going on dates or meeting people because you think Love will just show up at your door. You have to make an effort to go out and have a good time and meet people and talk to them and get to know them. Just don't make picking someone up your main goal.
Posted by SoaPiNuReYe (Member # 9144) on :
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: I think the rule that "Love shows up when least expected" applies mostly when you're acting like a spaz trying to get someone to like you. The more relaxed you are, the more you are acting like yourself, the more attractive you are. So when you stop "trying", you're more likely to get a date. ...At the same time, you shouldn't stop going on dates or meeting people because you think Love will just show up at your door. You have to make an effort to go out and have a good time and meet people and talk to them and get to know them. Just don't make picking someone up your main goal.
Good advice. Whenever I get caught up in something or confused in anyway, and I don't know what to do or how to go about something I just tell myself 'Just live man' and it seems to work. If you have no worries and you aren't trying to hard people are going to notice and take note of that. Just ask yourself, would you go out with the girl that tries her best to get a laugh out of you but it just doesn't work, or would you go out with the one that cracks a good joke now and then while in between showing that shes got a life outside of you. If you ask me I would go for the second one, and I'm pretty sure that most girls would go for the corresponding guy version too. Just take a chill pill and relax, it helps.
Posted by Kristen (Member # 9200) on :
I don't think when you stop trying you get a date, I just think that you are less likely to have a series of bad dates if you aren't so eager to go out with any girl/guy who seems nice.
And long dates are the best! All of my first dates from my serious relationships have been 4+ hours. Of course they weren't all planned to be that way...
Posted by OlavMah (Member # 756) on :
If you want a relationship with someone, you need to get past a minor offense or two, especially unintended ones.
Posted by Evie3217 (Member # 5426) on :
"I do know that I would always rather be someone's friend than date them, because it seems "safer" and I know it is easier."
I know how that feels, and it can be very frustrating. I think taking the time to get to know her, you'll be alright. Women (at least women like me) want a guy they can feel close to, and I think someone who starts out as a friend is much more likely to be compatable with her.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by OlavMah: If you want a relationship with someone, you need to get past a minor offense or two, especially unintended ones.
If you are IN a relationship, yes. If you just MET the person, you have absolutely no reason to put up with crap and very little emotional investment.
-pH
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
But pH, all the romantic love stories in the movies start off with the lovers hating and battling eachother... but the blows turn suddently into embraces, and the wrestling match turns into vigorous sex. I would love to attract a woman by challenging her to physical combat... it would be a great outlet for me.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Psh. No. I kick all men's asses, being all buff and muscular and all.
That is me lifting weights.
-pH
Posted by Rico (Member # 7533) on :
But of course you can kick all men's asses, you're like a guyfriend who just happens to have boobs you can make out with!
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
OK, we're on the second page, so I can say this without being too insensitive.
Did anyone else mentally add "Baby don't hurt me" with a club-mix beat to the first sentence in the title?
Lots of the advice you've gotten here is very good. One thing I would strongly caution against is trying to change that duality (entertainer, quiet guy). Some reflection as to whether the entertainer you is a reaction to insecurity might be worthwhile. But don't go to a party or out with a group thinking you need to be a certain way. You will end up being terribly unattractive to everyone and will have a terrible time.
There is someone out there who will both love you for the different moods you have and naturally move you between those moods in a rhythm you would not otherwise have. It's worth waiting for her.
Posted by Rico (Member # 7533) on :
Is it weird that every time I hear that song I think of the sketch from SNL?
*bobs head uncontrollably to the music*
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
No, yeah, Tom's right. Think of it as going to grab a burger with your buddy -- the more casual you are, the more chicks'll want to be with you. Boyfriends should be an escape, a safe place, where women can be themselves and not worry about judgement or frantic worrying; sort of like how friends, in general, should be. Just plus sex.
Relax and crack a few jokes and don't make her uncomfortable. You'll do fine. When she wants to get more serious, she'll either do it herself or make it clear to you that she wants you to step up. And if you make her wait a little, she'll want you even more.
Pop psychology's a wonderful creature...
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
*has been both thinking of that song and head bobbing since this thread appeared*
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
I'll second (third? fourth?) that love comes when least expected.
Though when it does come, and you're certain, sometimes you have to be ready to fight for it tooth and nail.
Metaphorically speaking, of course.
I should also note, from experience, not to underestimate the power of touch. Nothing has to be too intimate, but sometimes just touching or holding someone's hand can say more than words, in the right circumstances. And sometimes it can let you know if someone is being receptive or you're imagining things.
quote:But of course you can kick all men's asses, you're like a guyfriend who just happens to have boobs you can make out with!
Never gonna get to live that one down, are you, pH?
Incidentally, my kung-fu instructor was a 5'1" woman and unquestionably capable of kicking my ass six ways from Sunday. Remarkable person.
quote:Did anyone else mentally add "Baby don't hurt me" with a club-mix beat to the first sentence in the title?
Whoa-ho-oh-oh-oh-eh-oh-oh.... Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
It's not my fault you guys love my boobs.
-pH
Posted by Nathan2006 (Member # 9387) on :
Um, well, it's not like I've played the field a bunch, but I think you're really trying to hard... Thinking about it too hard... First of all, you're certainly not abnormal. Many guys, especially in college start feeling lonely.
Just be yourself. Don't be in a hurry. You're 21, young, and will probably end up getting married. If not, then you need to be confortable with yourself to accept that you will be lonely sometimes.
Mostly, in movies and books and media in general, guys are always flirtatious, and it's the women who worry about becoming old maids or whatever... they feel lonely. But you are not abnormal for feeling lonely. Just relax... But telling someone to 'just relax' is easy for somebody else to say. If you really can't relax, then I'm wrong, and it goes deeper than what I think it is. And in that case, I'm really sorry for trivilizing your feelings. (I'm not being fescetious)
But, again, you're young. At 21, you've got plently of life ahead of you to find somebody... Or for somebody to find you.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Here's another bit of advice. Date a lot of people. Seriously, it's like anything, the more practice you get, the better you will be at it. Also, the more people you meet on dates, the more you'll figure out who you do and do not want to go out with.
Asking a girl out is scary. That is, until you've done it a dozen times, then it's no big deal. You just go up to a cute girl, strike up a conversation, and ask for her number. Cake.
Plus, the more dates you go on, the more comfortable you'll be around people of the opposite sex, the more confident you'll be, and the more fun you'll have. It's a lot more fun to go on even a pretty good date than to sit at home worrying about how dateless you are.
Posted by Shanna (Member # 7900) on :
My best advice about love: How can you expect anyone to love you, if you don't love yourself first?
Change the "love" to "know" and you get an equally valuable little lesson.
As I'm 21 myself, I'm not saying you have to know exactly who you are. But you should atleast tack some things down or accept that you're beginning a life journey of self-discovery. That means doing some serious thinking about this "double personality" thing you have going.
I'm a girl and so my perspective is different, but I met my boyfriend during a time when I was making some big changes in my life and outlook and was in no way looking for a relationship. And then one day we ran into each other campus (we're classmates but had never talked) and struck up a conversation while walking to fee payment. The first few weeks, I never even contemplated dating him. I was just looking for a friend. We never did the typical step-by-step dating plan. We were just acquaintances and then the mutal attraction and some pushy friends sent it to the next level.
I didn't date before I met him and yet I'm in a relationship where we both see marriage as future possibility.
The big hurdle is accepting and enjoying singledom. When you think of being single as lonely or bad, then you're already sending out the wrong message subconsciously. Develop the confidence to never regret that state of your life, whether you have someone at the moment or not.
And maybe I'm just a big sucker for fate. Things do seem to work out in the end.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH: It's not my fault you guys love my boobs.
-pH
I could do without... No offense.
So Since this thread started I have gone to two movies with a girl from my classes in music. She is a fantastic musician (much better than me), and she's incredibly smart. Both times have been last minute, and I invited her the first time to have tea at my apartment. Tonight we went to see a showing of "Full metal Jacket" at the local theatre (college students love the classic movie thursdays), and afterwards she asked if she could come and study at my place and have tea with me. We talked for a while, and it was nice, and she hugged me on the way out.
This is possibly "just a friend" kind of thing, but this girl is also kind of shy and timid, so I can't really tell yet. Anyways, there's the news.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Well done Orincoro. Next step is smooching. That's the best way to go from "just friend" to "girlfriend." If that's what you're looking for. She sounds like she's interested.
I'm not trying to pressure you, but the one way to find out if a girl likes you likes you is to kiss her. If she kisses you back, you're in. If not, no biggie. Heck, sometimes the girl isn't even sure if she likes you likes you until you give her a kiss. That usually settles things.
Good luck either way man.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Well, if she kisses back, she finds you acceptably physically attractive. Depends on her dating style whether or not kissing actually indicates attraction to you as a person. And what goes on between the two of you...what your style of relating to one another is.
I definitely agree that you should date a lot of people. It's fun, and it helps you figure out exactly what it is that you like and what you can and can't tolerate. No one's perfect, so you're not going to find the most absolutely flawless human being on the face of the planet. But you have to figure out what's most important, and what sorts of things are absolute deal-breakers.
-pH
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rico: Is it weird that every time I hear that song I think of the sketch from SNL?
I don't know that song in any other context, so, to me, that's not only not weird, but normal.
Sounds good, Orincoro. Don't overthink the kiss (and don't capitalize it in your head).
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
Orincoro, you sound exactly like me. Except I've never been on a true date because I always find a way to say no, because I'm always convinced that they are making a mistake and I'd like to spare them the embarassment of going on a date that I'm sure they won't enjoy. Haha, now that I've put that into words it sounds really messed up. Anyway, all I can really say is Good Luck, and take advantage of the college scene while you can (I'm assuming you're in college) because it's an excellent excuse for small, casual meetings with all sorts of people.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Those words are MY words too, so I understand. Yes I am a Junior music/English major in college, so a majority of my time out of class is spent in small groups rehearsing or discussing or studying (or eating and drinking... ) I am a bit of a spaz (not the right word really), but I am also one of those people who everyone seems to know. I like to talk and share ideas with people all the time, so I do get to meet alot of people.
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
Orin: Your initial post essentially describes me as well.
Good point, women don't want a nice guy. They want a stud, who's happens to be nice.
Too many times "Nice Guy" is just an excuse to be meek and passive. Better to be assertive and manly, but polite and kind.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I want a nice guy, but the sort of guy who can stand up for himself, think for himself and take care of himself. Someone who is very intelligent too.
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
quote: Good point, women don't want a nice guy. They want a stud, who's happens to be nice.
Too many times "Nice Guy" is just an excuse to be meek and passive. Better to be assertive and manly, but polite and kind.
Ugh ugh ugh. That's all I have to say.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I don't want a player or a ladies' man so much. I want an intelligent, caring, cuddling guy who's still confident and who's more than willing to scoop me off my feet and carry me to my room.
-pH
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
quote:Originally posted by MyrddinFyre:
quote: Good point, women don't want a nice guy. They want a stud, who's happens to be nice.
Too many times "Nice Guy" is just an excuse to be meek and passive. Better to be assertive and manly, but polite and kind.
Ugh ugh ugh. That's all I have to say.
So women aren't turned off by meek and passive men?
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Meek and passive does not equal "nice guy."
-pH
Posted by Amilia (Member # 8912) on :
You're so nice. You're not good, you're not bad, you're just . . . nice.
I love Sondheim.
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH: Meek and passive does not equal "nice guy."
-pH
But unfortunately meek and passive are the main attributes of men who conciously label themselve as "nice" and approach the dating game from that perspective. If their "niceness" stems from quiet strenght and confidence, it is desirable. If it stems from massive insecurity, it's a big turnoff. Unfortunately there are a lot of guys who believe that niceness is the sole way to a woman's heart while forgetting the quiet strenght and confidence part. Without that, we're doomed to unreturned phone calls and similar flaky behavior from women. That's all I meant to say.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I've said it before, and I'll say it again:
"Nice guys" like that generally turn into stalkers.
I'd rather date a guy who doesn't call than have another stalker.
-pH
Posted by the_Somalian (Member # 6688) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH: I've said it before, and I'll say it again:
"Nice guys" like that generally turn into stalkers.
I'd rather date a guy who doesn't call than have another stalker.
-pH
Well every time a girl says she wants a "nice guy" without adding any qualifiers she's creating potential stalkers.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH: Meek and passive does not equal "nice guy." -pH
That's very true pH. There was a love-thread months ago in which I think you or I or somebody pointed out that "the nice guy" isn't really that nice at all, necessarily.
Proclaiming yourself the nice guy is really a very contradictory thing to do. If you're really a nice guy, then you don't care if people call you "the nice guy." On the other hand, most "nice guys" are just passive agressives who are innefective at really interactions.
I am not a "nice guy." Though I can be nice and say nice things if I want to, I can also say things that people don't want to hear, if I feel I need to be honest with them. "Nice guys" do a disservice to their friends IMO, because they don't really add anything to a relationship. The "good listeners" out there probably add less to their friendships than people who actually want to communicate with some honesty, and seek out people they can really relate to. Listening ability is important, but "the nice guy" seeks out people he doesn't actually relate well to, and who he cares nothing about; that's why he has such an easy time being non-judgemental and "caring."
I have often found it very easy to be a great listener when talking to people I didn't find particularly interesting or engaging. A person who chatters on at me about stupid nonsense is easy to deal with, because I can mentally flip channels while I smile and nod encouragingly. If I actually was interested, then I would try and add something meaningfull to the discussion; show that I cared what the person thought, and how the person saw the world. I would try to ADD to that understanding and relationship instead of simply being a face that sucks in mental exhaust.
There are probably "good listeners," out there who aren't doing this exactly, but "the nice guy" IS doing this IMO. Why else would a "nice guy" complain about being "the nice guy?" He should be in love with every second of his listening and caring friendships... that is if he enjoys them as much as he makes people think.
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
Exactly!
quote: So women aren't turned off by meek and passive men?
Women also don't like to be generalized Posted by SoaPiNuReYe (Member # 9144) on :
Meek and Passive= the dude from 40-year old virgin. I don't think most guys are like him.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
People who "mentally flip channels while [they] smile and nod encouragingly" are NOT great listeners. They may be great "pretending to be listening-ers. Or they might not even be great at pretending, if they mostly do it with people who talk to hear themselves talk and don't notice if anyone's listening anyway.
Truly good listeners pay attention and contribute meaningfully to the conversation, even if it's primarily about the other person's concerns.
Posted by Happy Camper (Member # 5076) on :
You know, every time the term "nice guy" has come up on these boards that I've ever seen, the term has been twisted so badly that it turns into "stalker" or "potential stalker".
It IS possible that a guy really is a nice guy. There's a lot of ways personality components can combine. Granted, it's not a term I'd have ever applied to myself originally. I never thought to myself 'yeah, that's what I am, a nice guy, think I'll start referring to myself as that'. But over the years, enough of my friends have used the term for me, that I generally took it upon myself, and every time this discussion comes up it makes me sad. I identify with true "niceness", but here, there's such a negative connotation applied to the term (very odd that). Maybe it IS because so many people use it as a crutch or a mask, I don't know, but why do we always come around to the argument that nice guys are usually stalkers?
Posted by amira tharani (Member # 182) on :
I think it all depends on how you are using the term "nice guy." People who portray themselves as "nice guys" are sometimes trying too hard (hence the stalkerishness) or are sometimes using their niceness to cover up for insecurity, as people have said. I think that the difference is between people like Happy Camper, who are genuinely good human beings who get the nice guy label from their friends, and those people who shove their "niceness" in your face and expect you to be impressed by it.
On the dating thing, I think I got very lucky at university, because it was completely cool to go out for coffee, drinks, dinner, theatre, movie, whatever, with a guy, without it being a date. In fact, we had a word for it among my group of friends - NAD (not a date). So although I only had two relationships during my three years of university (one of six months and one that has lasted until now and will, I hope, last the rest of my life) I got lots of stress-free dating practice! So when I met Rob, I was fairly relaxed about being on my own with a guy, and I think that this, accompanied by us being close friends for a long time before getting together, made the whole process really really easy. I hope that helps!
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Yeah, this isn't a vilifications of nice guys, this is a vilification of "the nice guy." As I've said, I don't think there is very much that IS nice about the nice guy, he's just bitter and pretending.
About "good listeners," its the same thing. A good listener contributes to a conversation, and in essence is just a good conversationalist. But the "good listener" who is like "the nice guy," isn't really listening for the right reasons, and doesn't really care anyway.
Posted by OlavMah (Member # 756) on :
Well, there *are* nice guys who finish last. They are, in fact, the last guys women ever date; another term for them is "husbands". Most people have a few false starts before the find the right person and I've had several guy friends find themselves with the woman they've been crazy about for years when she suddenly wakes up to the fact that her best friend would actually make an ideal romantic partner.
To pull up something from waaay back in the thread. I don't think your behavior, Orincoro, with the first girl you posted about, qualifies as "crap". I would also suggest that you not date pH. Just sensing some incapatibility there.
Posted by Swampjedi (Member # 7374) on :
Maybe "kind" should be the idea, instead of nice? Kind includes telling others what they don't want to hear but need to - but doing so gently, instead of abrasively. Granted, sometimes the only thing that will work is a verbal slap, but not all situations need that.
Nice, to me, just implies shallowness. It's a face that you can put on. Kindness is something that runs much deeper - it reflects more of who you really are.
[Edit: I thought this was interesting.]
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
Someone's been watching too many romantic comedies.
Swampjedi, I agree with your ideas about "nice" vs "kind"... that website says it all.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by OlavMah: Well, there *are* nice guys who finish last. They are, in fact, the last guys women ever date; another term for them is "husbands". Most people have a few false starts before the find the right person and I've had several guy friends find themselves with the woman they've been crazy about for years when she suddenly wakes up to the fact that her best friend would actually make an ideal romantic partner.
To pull up something from waaay back in the thread. I don't think your behavior, Orincoro, with the first girl you posted about, qualifies as "crap". I would also suggest that you not date pH. Just sensing some incapatibility there.
But see, the husband is the ultimate in WINNAR!11!! in the game of life.
Yeah, most people on this board probably wouldn't have too much fun dating me. I'm high-strung.
-pH
Posted by Kristen (Member # 9200) on :
'Nice' is not a general personality description.
You can be charismatic, loud, interesting, assertive, and funny and be a perfectly nice guy. I would date a guy like that in a heartbeat. And you can be meek, passive, soft-spoken and thoughtful and be a jerk.
Perhaps people are really refering to strong personalities versus subdued ones. Most women I know prefer the former to the latter. But, importantly this does not mean that guys with strong, outgoing, attitudes aren't nice or are a-holes and it does not mean that women like jerks.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
When I hear the term "nice guy" applied to someone, it usually comes off the same way as when a girl is described as "having great personality." It's a polite way to say they don't have a lot going for them.
Women who are great catches can have a lot of personality, and men who are great catches can be friendly and kind, but the term "nice guy" is usually reserved for guys who can't get a date, just as the girl "with a great personality" is the one who doesn't get a date.
Most women do want a guy who is nice, but that's not the end of the line. If a guy tries to be nice and ignores all the other things women want, he'll never get anywhere.
The "nice guy" listens to his female friend complain about how bad her boyfriend is, while he secretly wants to date her, but she ends up going back to her lame boyfriend, because while he may not be nice, he's masculine, or exciting, or sexy, or confident.
The "nice guy" needs to know that being nice is way down the list for women. Yes, they wish their boyfriend were nicer, but they don't want a nice guy boyfriend.
I would venture that women's lists go something like this:
Strong/Masculine - not just "sexy body", but also attitude Funny/Entertaining - makes her laugh, shows her a good time Interesting/Smart - likes the things she likes, good conversationalist Nice/Kind/Thoughtful - remembers her favorite flower, opens doors for her, nice to waiters
The list isn't the same for all women, but being nice is just part of the package, and as all "nice guys" know, it's not even close to the most important part.
A woman will date a sexy, fun guy who can be a jerk sometimes, but she won't date a really nice guy who doesn't make her laugh or turn her on.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH: Yeah, most people on this board probably wouldn't have too much fun dating me. I'm high-strung. -pH
I don't go where Species 8472 has been. I aint that kinda guy. Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Strong/Masculine - not just "sexy body", but also attitude Funny/Entertaining - makes her laugh, shows her a good time Interesting/Smart - likes the things she likes, good conversationalist Nice/Kind/Thoughtful - remembers her favorite flower, opens doors for her, nice to waiters
See, those are all jumbled for me. Because confidence, to me, is only sexy when it's paired with staggering intelligence. Intelligence generally leads to the ability to be entertaining. It also generally leads to an understanding that one needs to be thoughtful. This is not always the case, but I will only tolerate a smart, funny, interesting asshole for so long.
I think of it more as a Sims personality trait kind of thing. Like you start with 100 points, and you divide them among the major qualities, and certain combinations are more desirable than others.
-pH
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
Hmmm, I can honestly say that Masculinity (especially not the physical kind) is NOT sought out by my female friends, and is, in fact, usually a turn-OFF. Most of my male friends (they'll agree with me, and it is often a topic of conversation with them so I'm allowed to say this) are very un-masculine, and I'd hope any boyfriends my friends add to the mix would be able to associate with the group.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:Like you start with 100 points, and you divide them among the major qualities, and certain combinations are more desirable than others.
I think of it the same way. Only the analogy I use is from Madden, not Sims.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
...although there are some people who just seemed destined to be limited to 50 points from the get-go.
As for masculinity...there's a delicate balance there. Also depends on how you define "masculinity."
-pH
Posted by Kristen (Member # 9200) on :
I agree with pH 100%. And MightyCow.
Also, most guys are 'nice guys' when trying to get a girl to date them--we aren't going to find someone who ignores us from the start attractive.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
That hasn't exactly been my experience. My experience has been the more I ignore the girl, the more she likes me. And the more attentive I am, the less she likes me.* People like a challenge, and they want what they can't have.
*This is, of couse, based off a very small data set.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
No...the more I'm smothered, the less I like you.
Again, a delicate balance. Be attentive without being overbearing and possessive.
-pH
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
I have a friend who needs, craves, and must be smothered. Whereas I would feel overwhelmed seeing a romantic prospect more than once a week. There's balances, sure, and there's the individual.
Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
quote:As for masculinity...there's a delicate balance there. Also depends on how you define "masculinity."
I think some people confuse masculine with macho. For me anyway, masculine is good, macho is not. Guys who are macho are insecure about their masculinity, and try to cover it by trying too hard to prove that they're guys.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
That's exactly how I feel, Midnight. Guys who are all, "I AM MAN" are generally the ones who are the most insecure. Guys who will help you pick out bath mats are usually pretty secure about their masculinity.
I don't mind seeing a romantic prospect for more than a week, obviously, but I can't deal with feeling as though there are restrictions being placed on what I can do. In other words, yeah, you're my boyfriend. But if Guy X wants to go to the movies with me, I'm gonna go, so long as he knows that I have a boyfriend and so long as I don't find him absolutely repulsive. I can't handle always being controlled or accused of cheating.
-pH
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by MidnightBlue: I think some people confuse masculine with macho. For me anyway, masculine is good, macho is not. Guys who are macho are insecure about their masculinity, and try to cover it by trying too hard to prove that they're guys.
Masculity does not require the masculine person to: profess his expertise at "picking up hoes," drive a "fly" car, work his abs, wear pooka shells or gold chains, don a wife beater, walk with a ridiculous limp and one pant leg raised to the calf, and say things like "keepin it reaaal yo!"
I am sometimes confronted too with the wallstreety/carsalesman/blowhard guys who talk in such a transparently egotistical and affected manner, it is all I can do not to laugh out loud. Sometimes I meet these people and like them immediately, because they at first appear to be a very funny normal person who is doing an impression of one of these types. Something eventually suggests to me that this is not a joke, this is really.... and really really funny. Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:profess his expertise at "picking up hoes," drive a "fly" car, work his abs, wear pooka shells or gold chains, don a wife beater, walk with a ridiculous limp and one pant leg raised to the calf, and say things like "keepin it reaaal yo!"
Don't hate.
-pH
Posted by Swampjedi (Member # 7374) on :
It's like those 1337 kids. You think they're being funny, but they're actually serious. L1f3 p10x?
Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
quote:Again, a delicate balance. Be attentive without being overbearing and possessive.
No offense, pH, but if someone I was attempting to be in a relationship actually articulated that, I would seriously begin to wonder if they were worth the trouble. Not so much the sentiment itself, but because I most often see it from people who are also expecting their significant others to read their mind.
As someone with two sisters and a mother who all went through their share of early lousy relationships, I suspect a certain amount of experience and/or fatigue has to set in for many women before they start looking for "nice" over "exciting". I think many women are also so used to men acting a certain way that the first time one expresses an interest in what *she* wants, they're nonplussed and may interpret it as being passive-aggressive. Whereas the man who goes for what *he* wants, without much care for what anyone else might think, comes off as confident. At least at first.
Generalizations, I realize.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Can't a person be both nice and "masculine". Not even sure what that means... But a balanced guy is rather attractive.
*runs off to figure out how to stop harping on a certain guy*
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:No offense, pH, but if someone I was attempting to be in a relationship actually articulated that, I would seriously begin to wonder if they were worth the trouble. Not so much the sentiment itself, but because I most often see it from people who are also expecting their significant others to read their mind.
I don't expect anyone to read my mind. But I expect him to care about how I feel without keeping me on a leash.
-pH
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
I suspect that you like for him to be able to read your mind... but experience has taught you that this is an unreasonable expectation. Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
quote:I don't expect anyone to read my mind. But I expect him to care about how I feel without keeping me on a leash.
I understand. But people's definitions of "possessive" can vary a lot. For some people, it would be "You don't go anywhere without me, I control both our finances." For some, it would be "While we're in this relationship, remain sexually monogomous." For a few, possessiveness is "Can I have your phone number."
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
To me, possessiveness is telling me what I can and cannot do with my free time. One of my ex boyfriends wouldn't let me leave the house without him because he was afraid that I was going to cheat on him. I have to be able to go out on my own with whoever I want.
I think that it's reasonable to expect a monogamous relationship...once the two of you have decided to begin a monogamous relationship. Getting unreasonably angry (ie. punching a hole in your wall and kicking me out of your house) when you find out I kissed another guy despite the fact that all indications were that you didn't know if you wanted a relationship or not is not cool.
Plus, I think it's important to treat the other person in a way that indicates that you know the very simplest of truths about your relationship: it's voluntary. He/she chooses to be there.
-pH
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
quote:Originally posted by MyrddinFyre: Hmmm, I can honestly say that Masculinity (especially not the physical kind) is NOT sought out by my female friends, and is, in fact, usually a turn-OFF. Most of my male friends (they'll agree with me, and it is often a topic of conversation with them so I'm allowed to say this) are very un-masculine, and I'd hope any boyfriends my friends add to the mix would be able to associate with the group.
Maybe we have a different idea of what makes a guy masculine. I would say that most straight women want a guy who is physically larger than they are, stronger than they are, more assertive in tense situations, willing to stand up for them, and give them a feeling of security. That's what I'm talking about when I say masculine.
Women tend to want a man who makes them feel more feminine, and the best way to do that is being more masculine than they are.
I'm not talking about guys who are beefcakes, or jocks or GQ men. I'm also not sure exactly what you mean when you said you would want any new boyfriends to be able to associate with the group. I know lots of masculine men who have no problem associating with anyone. In fact, I would say that part of being masculine is being confident enough to associate with most people.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I pretty much agree with that, Cow.
-pH
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
quote:Originally posted by pH: I pretty much agree with that, Cow.
-pH
That's because I'm being all manly Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Oooh.
-pH
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I think one of the biggest turn-offs for women are the guys who can't distinguish between "macho" and masculine.
The funny part of that is that the same women who would complain about that to me when I was dating seemed to have the same problem distinguishing between them as well.
It got real old, real fast, being the "nice" guy, eve though I was only being myself. Or so I thought at the time. It wasn't until years later that I finally got it. I stopped being a doormat, and for over a year I didn't date at all, really. Once I was fine being alone, I realized I was ready to be with someone else.
I never stopped wanting a relationship, but I stopped letting women take advantage of me. I was more than a shoulder to cry on....I DESERVED to be more than that.
I realized that I was as much to blame as the women were, for allowing myself to be undervalued, and I just learned to cut my losses if things weren't working out. I wasn't interested in being "just friends" with them, because I wanted more. I wasn't rude, or dismissive, I just moved on when it was clear it wasn't working out.
To me, that wasn't being arrogant or macho, it was being assertive, and it was one of the hardest thing I had to learn. I had to take responsibility for my end of the "nice" guy syndrome...I was letting them use me as an emotional release and getting nothing but a "nice" label out of it, and it sucked.
Now I am married to a wonderful woman who NEVER undervalues me, and I look at some of my friends who are still single and clubbing around...and all I can think is how glad I am that that isn't me. I am still nice, but nice means more than it use to, at least for me. Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
quote: Maybe we have a different idea of what makes a guy masculine. I would say that most straight women want a guy who is physically larger than they are, stronger than they are, more assertive in tense situations, willing to stand up for them, and give them a feeling of security. That's what I'm talking about when I say masculine.
This is why I'm kind of getting frustrated, because that is EXACTLY what I meant by "masculine." Are other parts of the country that different that this is Ideal? Or (more likely) is my group of friends that out of the ordinary? I feel so far removed from what most people are expressing in this thread, it makes me wonder.
Hmm, by "associate" I think I mean more be able to hang out with, fit in, and not be 'The Boyfriend' and instead just another one of us. Like Borg. Haha.
Though the part of physically bigger is definitely true of all females I know, though also for most females I know (not including me, I'm a whole 'nother story) they don't have to think about it because most guys *are* larger and stronger than they are.
Posted by Evie3217 (Member # 5426) on :
I for one go for the opposite. I mean, yeah, it's important for a guy to stand up for himself, but I don't go for stronger than me. I go for the cute, rather geeky guys who are funny and fun to be around. They're who I surround myself with, and who I can really see myself having an actual relationship with, because I know that I'm compatable with them.
I'm with you Myrddin. Don't worry. I just wish that all the guys around me would see that an awesome person is standing right next to them.
My problem is that I'm one of the guys. I hang out with them all the time, joke with them, and almost never dress up for them. So they don't see me as dating material, which is a problem, because the guys I hang out with are the types of guys that I would like to date. I feel like for me, I'm the female counterpart to being the "nice guy."
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
That sounds like me, I have more guy friends than girl friends, and the friends I would confide in are almost all male. But while my friends are the kind of people I could see myself dating, I couldn't see myself dating *them*... they're my friends!
Posted by Gecko (Member # 8160) on :
Unless you are a sexually attractive individual in the first place, all these tips on picking up girls/guys are moot.
No girl or guy would approach a person who they do not find sexually attractive, and a lot of people in the world (according to that episode of seinfeld) are not attractive. What do you say to them, kind people? What advice for them?
It's very idealistic to say you love someone for their mind. Nevermind actions, appearence is the first impression.
Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
quote: Maybe we have a different idea of what makes a guy masculine. I would say that most straight women want a guy who is physically larger than they are, stronger than they are, more assertive in tense situations, willing to stand up for them, and give them a feeling of security. That's what I'm talking about when I say masculine.
That is and isn't what I look for. I don't have to worry about the bigger/stronger thing, because I'm tiny and not particularly strong. While I certainly don't mind that my boyfriend is bigger and stronger than me, I really would care if he wasn't. I am far more attracted to character and personality than to physical attributes. (I know a lot of people say that, and for a lot it's a load of bull, but I generally won't find a guy physically attractive until I'm already attracted to his personality.) As for as being assertive and standing up for me, it's a nice thought, but I'm pretty strong-willed as it is. I'm capable of standing up for myself. I do agree about the sense of security, but I don't see it physical security. He isn't my body guard, he's my boyfriend. (edit)To me it's more of a mental/emotional security. If something happens, I know he'll be there for me. (/edit) So I'd like to think that I can return that security.
I don't think that list really has anything to do with masculine. Can a guy who is short, thin, and not very strong never be masculine because he won't be bigger or stronger than his girlfriend? Is it unmasculine to let a girl stand up for herself if she's perfectly capable of doing so? While those are qualities that some (maybe a lot) of women value, thinking that those are requirements of masculinity is wrong. It's the guys who always think they need to prove they're bigger, stronger, in charge of every situation that come off as macho and insecure.
Everyone is different, and everyone is looking for someone with different qualities, but I think the most important thing is to know who you are, not be ashamed of who you are, and to have some idea of what you're looking for in a man/woman.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
And they matter most for shallow people whom I wouldn't want to be with anyway.
Not that appearance is unimportant. It is important. Just not as important as we have been led to believe. Lots of people are married, and most of them, male and female, are NOT built like gods or goddesses.
Attractive and appealing are two different (if related) things, and I am glad. If they were the same thing I would undoubtedly still be single. Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
quote:Originally posted by Gecko: Unless you are a sexually attractive individual in the first place, all these tips on picking up girls/guys are moot.
As several people have said Gecko, it's not all about physical attractiveness. That plays a factor, but being hot is about a lot of other things, like being funny, sincere, honest, strong... etc.
There are a lot of people who are not considered classically beautiful, heck, there are downright ugly people, who are considered "sexy", because they have that style, confidence, humor, and so on that attracts people.
If you look like your face was used as a World Cup practice field, you may not want to shoot for a super model, but if you have a lot of other things going for you, you too can get a date.
Somewhere in the world, everybody has someone who finds them hot. Just keep looking until you find them Posted by Sterling (Member # 8096) on :
quote: There are a lot of people who are not considered classically beautiful, heck, there are downright ugly people, who are considered "sexy", because they have that style, confidence, humor, and so on that attracts people.
And, like funny, "sexy"... Hell, "attractive"... Varies a lot from person to person.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
On masculinity:
I do appreciate a guy being "bigger" than I am. Which is tough to come by, since I'm Myr's height. I was used to dating guys who were three inches shorter than me, on average, until I dated a 6'10" basketball player. Then it was like, "...he can put his chin on top of my head! That is SO COOL!"
But once I got into college, it became easier to find guys who were over 6'. I don't know why, since I mostly dated college-age guys to begin with.
So while I don't mind a guy not towering over me, I do like it if he has a couple inches on me. And preferably is not thinner than me, although that's not a hard-and-fast rule. I want him to be assertive but not a bully. I mean, I'm assertive and sometimes a bully, even though I don't mean to be; I'm just very...volatile. We really don't need two of me. And besides, he's gotta be able to respect that I want to have my own career and will probably not be happy sitting at home playing wife.
-pH
Posted by theresa51282 (Member # 8037) on :
I think people's physical attractiveness levels can change a lot depending on circumstances and desirability of their personality. I am married to someone that I did not have an immediate physical attration to but now can't get enough of. I think the people society views as "hot" or "attractive" probably do have an easier time getting a first date from a stranger of very casual acquaintance but I do think most people will give someone they click with personality wise a chance even if they are not the most sexy person in the world to them at that moment.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Lots of women I've spoken too have told me, "I didn't think he was anything much at first, but once I saw him dance/play music/debate politics/talk down a bully/paint, etc. I was super attracted to him."
There are a lot of areas where attractiveness comes into play.
The above conversations were from women of a variety of ages, races, and social groups while I was working at a dating company.
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
That's very true for me. If I see someone in their element, whether it's the environment or the task (uniforms always a plus ) I warm up to the person quicker.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
quote:I would say that most straight women want a guy who is physically larger than they are, stronger than they are, more assertive in tense situations, willing to stand up for them, and give them a feeling of security. That's what I'm talking about when I say masculine.
Women tend to want a man who makes them feel more feminine, and the best way to do that is being more masculine than they are.
Just popped in to check out this thread and saw the above. Wanted to say I think it's a load of crap. You're saying basically that most women want a man who can take care of them. That is certainly not what I look for, and isn't what the vast majority of my female friends look for.
Posted by Kristen (Member # 9200) on :
I am the opposite of ElJay in that I do prefer men who fit the stereotypical gender norm and who will coexist with me in a heteronormative relationship. I do believe that I could only be happy in a relationship where the man is dominant, both financially and personally.
However, that's just how I am and I wouldn't say it's better or worse than being completely independent or the female having the assertive role. It depends on the person. I am at one end of the spectrum and there are plenty of people who feel differently and are the opposite. Thus, it's not a good assumption to make about most straight women--in fact, it's generally not a good idea to draw common tenets about such a large set of individuals in the first place.
EDIT: And ugly men can get hot/interesting women. Don't even worry about your appearence besides keeping it neat. It's the ugly girls where looks is major a handicap.
[ June 06, 2006, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: Kristen ]
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I prefer to be on more of an equal standing, but I do appreciate stereotypical "masculine" characteristics. At the same time, I will have nothing to do with any man who is not okay with me having my own career and wanting to share any household duties. Yes, I want someone who can take care of me, but I also want to be able to take care of him as well.
-pH
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
ElJay: There's a vast gulf between a man who has the ability to take care of a woman, and the woman actually needing the man to do so. I'm not suggesting that because a man is strong and confident that he tries to coddle his girlfriend. A masculine guy doesn't take anything away from his partner's self-reliance.
Are you and your female friends seriously looking for men who are smaller and weaker than you, complacent, meek, and subservient? I do smell some crap, but I'm not sure where it's coming from Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
I think we're more talking what people are drawn to, instead of what they are looking for. Usually people aren't really looking for a particular sort of person with quite so many parameters, though they find themselves continually interested in people who have certain characteristics in common.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
This is true. I doubt there are many people who have an exact idea of what they want. And I can understand being turned off by the overbearing "manly man" guy who wants to be man of the house and who expects you to stay home and bake pie.
-pH
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Successful men do well, but not for the reasons people would guess.
There is really so something attractive seeing someone who has come into their own. It could be they found the perfect job, or they are completely happy with themselves at that point in their life....everyone defines success differently.
But confidence (not arrogance) is completely attractive, and people who feel they are truly successful are confident in their own abilities, and that makes a huge difference.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Urg. I don't want to be dominated. If I wanted that I'd live with parents. I'd rather just switch roles or something. Be equal with a man and not fighting constantly over who pays what ors omething.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
But I don't think that's switching roles. Switching roles would be if you totally dominated everything and he was supposed to bake the pies.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being a stay-at-home wife/mother. I just think that a couple should be able to choose together if that's what they want, and if the woman doesn't want that, the man shouldn't get all pissy and feel like he's being emasculated.
-pH
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Shifting roles back and forth... I get to do what I'm good at, he gets to do what he's good at... Not strict straight down the line sort of roles.
I don't want to totally dominate either. it would bug me to have to tell some man (or even a woman) what to do all the time.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: ElJay: There's a vast gulf between a man who has the ability to take care of a woman, and the woman actually needing the man to do so. I'm not suggesting that because a man is strong and confident that he tries to coddle his girlfriend. A masculine guy doesn't take anything away from his partner's self-reliance.
Are you and your female friends seriously looking for men who are smaller and weaker than you, complacent, meek, and subservient? I do smell some crap, but I'm not sure where it's coming from
I don't look for a guy who's bigger than me or smaller than me. I've dated guys of just about every physical size out there. I was three inches taller than the last guy I dated before my current relationship. My current boyfriend is nine inches taller than me, but I outweigh him by about 15 pounds. I've also dated big burly guys, both cut and severly overweight. And a couple, although not many, that I could beat in arm wrestling. (Not many not because I wouldn't date a man who's weaker than me, but because most men have more upper body strength than most women.) Beyond the existance of a certain chemestry, physical characteristics just don't matter.
I'm plenty assertive in tense situations, so I have no need to find a guy who's more assertive in them. In fact, more assertive than I am would probably be dangerous in most situations. Does that mean I'm looking for a guy who's subservient? Well, no. Assertive and subservient aren't opposites. And it's not like I by default have to be looking for the direct opposit of a trait I'm not looking for, anyway.
The part of your original list that I object to most is "gives them a feeling of security." If I don't have that on my own, I'm not going to get it from being around some man. No matter how devoted we are to each other, we're not going to be together 24 hours a day. Yes, I like a guy who can support me when things aren't going my way. But I get that from my female friends, too, and from hatrack. I consider it something humans do for each other, so I don't feel any need to go looking for it in a man. If he's a decent human being, the support will be there when it's needed, and he'll be able to accept it from me as well when he needs it.
As far as "masculine," I've dated some guys with traditional rugged good looks and some pretty boys. Neither made me feel more feminine than the other.
I date human beings. I look for people who are clever, thoughtful, kind, and have integrity. Not bigger or smaller than me, more or less assertive, and not to fulfill something that's missing in myself. My female friends' lists might be different from mine in particulars, but they're similar in values. My best friend is a very well paid markerting executive who's dating a hospital security guard. I would venture to guess she makes at least three times as much money as he does. They ride motorcycles together, and seem very happy. Of course there are women out there who feel differently than I do. But to say that "most straight women" are looking for any one particular set of characteristics? Crap.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Syn, I don't think that is what was meant. I know that I always offered to pay when JenniK and I began dating, but sometimes she wanted to pay...and I had no problem with that at all.
She liked that I wanted to pay, but felt she should contribute....and I didn't feel the need to "dominate" her at all, nor did I feel an irrational need to pay for every little thing in order to prove something.
I didn't feel threatened by woman who were assertive, nor did I feel particularly macho when I did pay. I was taught that if you ask someone out, you pay, or at least try to...but also that it is selfish and pigheaded to argue with a woman you are interested in and/or dating just because she wants to pay sometimes. If we only went out when I could afford to pay we would have seen a lot less of each other at first, that's for sure.
There is always a give and take in any relationship...at least any relationship worth a damn.
Posted by SoaPiNuReYe (Member # 9144) on :
Masculinity and Feminity(sp?) don't really have much to do with it in my opinion. It's all about the chemistry, if you can't talk to each other how are you gonna date each other? If you can't live with each other how are you gonna get married to each other? This whole thing about what girls/guys want is total bs. Just be yourself and you'll do alright.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
ElJay, I don't think it's a feeling of security in like, "This guy will beat the crap out of anyone who tries to hurt me." For me, it's a different kind of security. Sort of a comfort, I guess. Not that I can't feel secure on my own in the least, but it's nice to know that someone will listen to you whine about your day or make you soup when you're sick.
-pH
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Right. See what I said about my female freinds and hatrack. And my family, for that matter, and a subset of my coworkers. It's just not something I need to look for in my romantic relationships, because I am blessed to have it in abundance from many people.
Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
It's not that security isn't something you can't find elsewhere, but why be with a guy who you don't think you can depend on when you need him? It's a quality that I think everyone looks for in any kind of relationship, but I think it's particularly important in a significant other.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
ElJay:
quote:I look for people who are clever, thoughtful, kind, and have integrity. ... But to say that "most straight women" are looking for any one particular set of characteristics? Crap.
I'm not sure what you're arguing here. How can you say that you and your female friends all want guys who share traits, but at the same time say it's crap?
Are you just arguing with the words I'm using? You sound like a very strong, secure woman, who doesn't like the idea of a man taking much part in a relationship. From the sound of it, you want to be the boss.
You don't want a guy who's assertive... at least not more assertive than you. You object to the idea that a man might give you a sense of security... but he should be supportive, and let you support him.
It doesn't sound to me like you're really objecting to my ideas, as much as you don't want a man who bosses you around. You want to be in charge. I never suggested such a thing, and I'm not sure why you're reading that into everything I say.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
EDIT: This was to Midnight and pH.
Did either of you read my post?
"Yes, I like a guy who can support me when things aren't going my way. But I get that from my female friends, too, and from hatrack. I consider it something humans do for each other, so I don't feel any need to go looking for it in a man. If he's a decent human being, the support will be there when it's needed, and he'll be able to accept it from me as well when he needs it."
Posted by SoaPiNuReYe (Member # 9144) on :
People need someone to talk to. People tell their girlfriends things that they may not feel safe telling other people. It's just like the whole best-friend thing that goes on. If you have no communication with each other, there is no way that the relationship can work.
Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
ElJay: I'm just confused because you say it's not something you need to look for in a romantic relationship, but you do seem to expect it from him (at least as long as you expect him to be a decent human being).
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
To me, though, the boyfriend, if he's a good boyfriend, sort of takes the best friend role. And besides, I can't really expect my other friends to cuddle me to sleep when I'm upset about something and then put up with me waking them up because I had nightmares or I need a glass of water. Support can come from others as well, but it's a different kind of support, to me. My shrink explained it in a sort of weird but sort of accurate way: that you kind of become each other's mom in some aspects.
-pH
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
See, I didn't get that ELJay wanted to be the boss of her relationships, but more that she expects (or demands) to be an equal. She DOES expect her relationship to give her support when she needs it, but she doesn't get that exclusively from a relationship[ (I am not commenting on her present relationship at all, but rather what I got from her post in a general sense. I don't know her outside of Hatrack at all, nor am I likely to ever meet her IRL).
Of course I may be wrong about what ELJay was trying to say, but that is what I got from reading her posts anyway.
It seemed to me that she expects him to be a decent person, or she wouldn't be dating him, and to her part of being a decent human being is supporting others when they need it.
However, I personally DO think that a lot of people DO look for someone who compliments their strengths and weaknesses, even if they aren't aware of doing it. Everyone has different strengths though, so I don't think anyone can say (beyond extremely broad, meaningless generalities) that ALL women want anything in specific...because just as their strengths vary so do their needs.
I do think you can say a LOT of women want thisandthat (whatever thisandthat is)...but not ALL. Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kwea: Not that appearance is unimportant. It is important. Just not as important as we have been led to believe. Lots of people are married, and most of them, male and female, are NOT built like gods or goddesses.
Physical attractiveness is a can of worms in itself. Is the person conscious of giving a good impression? Do they care about how they look? Care too much? Not enough?
There is of course a base level of attractiveness, like if the person is morbidly obese, or anorexic, or really really ugly. Its rare to be just plain ugly; most people have some good and bad qualities to their features that have nothing to do with their personalities. If you like a person, then their positives register and their negatives become unimportant.
An interesting story about this: I knew a girl from a choir I was in a few years ago. She was not very pleasant company, uninteresting, annoying and unintelligent seeming. Beyond that she was probably one of the most unfortunately unnatractive people I've ever known- huge mishapen nose, bad skin, big jaw, and freakishly large cheekbones. I once asked myself whether her unpleasantness to be around was because I was seeing her differently because I didn't find her attractive. I also thought that she could have been turned into an unpleasant person through years of abuse by people like me who found her unnatractive and treated her badly because of that. I tried to be nice to her and talk to her, but I couldn't take it and realized that she, at least, was out of my hands. This one wasn't my fault, but the next one could be.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: [QB] I'm not sure what you're arguing here. How can you say that you and your female friends all want guys who share traits, but at the same time say it's crap?
I didn't say we all want guys who share the same traits. I said "My female friends' lists might be different from mine in particulars, but they're similar in values."
In other words, where my list is "clever, thoughtful, kind, and have integrity," one friend's might be "funny, cute butt, and musical" and another one's "creative, intellegent, and secure." Our lists are different, but none of them are at all similar to the list you initially posted. Other women undoubtedly fit that list. They just don't happen to be in my group of immediate friends. Which makes sense, in a way, as I hang out with mostly women who are in non-traditional roles, so it makes sense they'd have non-traditional relationship ideals.
quote: You sound like a very strong, secure woman, who doesn't like the idea of a man taking much part in a relationship. From the sound of it, you want to be the boss.
Man, talk about reading into my posts things I never said.
What I objected to in your initial post, and have stated apparently not clearly enough since then, is the idea that "most straight women" want what you said they want. I don't think "most straight women" want any particular thing. It not about me wanting or not wanting a man who bosses me around. It's about the fact that you can't make generalizations about 150 million people in this country and think that they have any meaning at all.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
You know, Kwea, it's not like I'd intentionally avoid you or anything. [removed because it looked weird, probably more so to people who weren't around.]
Anyway, I really agree with what you said about people wanting to be with people who complement their strengths and weaknesses. I think that's how the best relationships work.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Physical attractiveness is a can of worms in itself. Is the person conscious of giving a good impression? Do they care about how they look? Care too much? Not enough?
Well, different people find different things physically attractive. Some people have a "type." Some, like me, don't really. We just knows it when we sees it.
-pH
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I didn't mean it that way, ELJay. I bet I know what you removed, or at least what you were referring to.
I just don't think a trip out to that area of the US is in the cards for JenniK and me any time soon.
I know that if we ever get up there I would like to stop and see Bob and Dana, so I guess it isn't outside the realm of possibility after all.
I know that I am a better person for knowing my wife, and that I am far happier now than I have ever been in the past. I wish my wife was strong in ALL the areas I am weak in (like balancing the checkbook, saving money, you know...all the boring stuff ) overall we complement each other very well. She is my best friend, and as trite as that may sound it is the most important thing in our relationship.
I know a lot of guys who don't mind working strange hours that are different that their wives work hours because it gives them time away from them. I am the opposite...I love simply spending time with Jenni, and get mad when work rearranges my hours.
We each have our things that the other doesn't enjoy...she likes horror movies, I love playing pool...and we DO spend time alone to do those activities, but most of our days off we are together non stop.
And that is the way we like it.
Kwea
Posted by Evie3217 (Member # 5426) on :
quote: It's the ugly girls where looks is major a handicap.
Kristen, that hurts, because I find myself in the unattractive side of the spectrum. I think looks are just as important to women as they are to men.
At least I have to believe that, or I'm dead.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:EDIT: And ugly men can get hot/interesting women. Don't even worry about your appearence besides keeping it neat. It's the ugly girls where looks is major a handicap.
I see that kind of thing all the time, though. Generally, men can afford to rate much lower on the physical attractiveness scale than the women they date, which I think is really sad. It's frustrating because it means, for me personally, that I constantly feel pressure to diet and try to improve my looks. I mean, on one hand, that can be healthy, but where does it end? And why don't most guys seem to feel the same urge? I mean, a lot of guys just totally let themselves go, and they still expect to get really, really attractive women. Why?
-pH
Posted by Robin Kaczmarczyk (Member # 9067) on :
What is love? Why is it so hard?
Ok. My take on love is .. to serve. But it's more than that, huh? Compassion, attraction, jealousy.. What is the highest form of love? Bhakti: devotion.
Why is it so hard... It isn't.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: Are you and your female friends seriously looking for men who are smaller and weaker than you, complacent, meek, and subservient? I do smell some crap, but I'm not sure where it's coming from
I would suppose that ElJay and her friends (and I count myself among them) do not rank these categories as relevant on the "yay" or "nay" scale.
----
Edited to add: Aaaand I missed the fourth page, where ElJay lays it out. Still agree.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
You were much more succinct than I was, friend. Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
In other news, whenever I see this thread title, from the very first day it was started "What is Love? (Love!) Baby don't hurt me, Baby don't hurt me, no more." starts going through my head. It's getting kinda old.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
ElJay: I apologize if I misconstrued your post in any way that you felt was out of line.
I stand by my assessment that most straight women, and perhaps I should say in America, since I am unfamiliar with all the cultural standards across the globe, are attracted to specific characteristics in men.
I never claimed that all women want the same thing, or that any specific set of features are on a Must Have or Cannot Have list. Simply that there are traits which are generally considered positive for men to have, as far as dating goes.
In fact, I would say that while you keep disagreeing with me, all of your examples hold true to my basic principals.
Here's what you said:
quote: In other words, where my list is "clever, thoughtful, kind, and have integrity," one friend's might be "funny, cute butt, and musical" and another one's "creative, intellegent, and secure." Our lists are different, but none of them are at all similar to the list you initially posted.
Here's my list:
quote: Strong/Masculine - not just "sexy body", but also attitude Funny/Entertaining - makes her laugh, shows her a good time Interesting/Smart - likes the things she likes, good conversationalist Nice/Kind/Thoughtful - remembers her favorite flower, opens doors for her, nice to waiters
If you look at the two lists, they're very similar, and yet you keep saying that they aren't. For heaven's sake, not only are the ideas similar, we're using the same words!
So maybe you can see where I'm getting the confusion. Anyway, this isn't about you and me having a misunderstanding, and you did say that you and your friends may be more non-traditional, so I'm willing to accept it as just a difference of opinion. Regardless, I hope that you all find happiness in your relationships, whatever form they may take. Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Ah, see, there's the confusion. We're talking about differerent lists. What I'm referring to when I say your "list" is the part I quoted in my very first post. . . this:
quote:I would say that most straight women want a guy who is physically larger than they are, stronger than they are, more assertive in tense situations, willing to stand up for them, and give them a feeling of security. That's what I'm talking about when I say masculine.
Women tend to want a man who makes them feel more feminine, and the best way to do that is being more masculine than they are.
That is, to me, very different from any of the "example" lists I gave. And that's all I've been talking about in each of my posts. I've never referred to the post you just quoted at all, and wouldn't have quibbled with it. But I (obviously) disagree strongly with the idea that "most" women in America are looking for anything that resembles your definition of masculinity.
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
*seconds that*
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Ah, that makes more sense to me now
Well, I do believe you when you say that you and your friends don't want that sort of man. You're certainly entitled to feel any way you choose.
In my experience working for a dating company for 3 years, almost universally, the women either said specifically what they wanted, or through observation they gravitated towards the men who tended to be more assertive and physically larger than they were.
Obviously, there are some women who date men who are not very assertive, who don't give them a feeling of security, who aren't willing to stand up for them, and who are shorter and smaller.
I'm even willing to concede that some women may seek out these short, passive, complacent guys. More power to 'em.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
What part of the country was your dating company in? I'm just curious.
And have you considered that the traits don't all have to go together? There are tall passive guys and short agressive ones, you know. And I've still never said that women seek out that list of traits, although some might. I have said that I don't think they matter. Like I said in my first post, I've dated people on both ends of the spectrum and everywhere in between, and those characteristics just aren't that important.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
quote:Originally posted by ElJay: In other news, whenever I see this thread title, from the very first day it was started "What is Love? (Love!) Baby don't hurt me, Baby don't hurt me, no more." starts going through my head. It's getting kinda old.
Every time I see it I think that the answer to both questions is, "I don't know, I'm just grateful that it is."
[ June 07, 2006, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: kmbboots ]
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
This is true, ElJay, and it's also true that everyone looks for different qualities and has different priorities, but...to a certain extent, I think all people ARE looking for someone to take care of them, deep down. Not in the dependent, I can't live without you, I'm a completely useless human being on my own kind of sense...but like, I don't remember if I said this before, but one of my therapists explained it as sort of...you're, to a certain extent, each other's mom. You want to help when the other person is sick or sad or stressed, and you want to hug them and try to make them feel better. That kind of thing.
-pH
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
But here's the thing, pH, I think that part is a function of your relationship, not a function of who you have it with. It's not a quality you have to look for, because anyone who cares deeply about you will grow to feel that way, as they grow to care about you. If your relationship takes a wrong turn and one or both of you are acting like selfish jerks, than yeah, you won't get that. And some people just aren't compatible. But since that kind of support is something that pretty much everyone wants, pretty much everyone will provide it in a healthy relationship.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
"Healthy" being the operative word. There are many, MANY unhealthy relationships in the world.
Which is why you DO have to look for qualities that lend themselves to that.
-pH
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
I know. But since I don't go looking for an unhealthy relationship. . .
Edit: No fair! You edited!
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
But relationships of that kind are unhealthy regardless of whether they are romantic or not.
(I know this is a bit of a fine point, but I think it's an important one. The loving quality is one I seek in all relationships, not just with my primary partner. That is, for me (and, I think, ElJay and others of our friends), it is not a distinguisher of romantic interest.)
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
But if everyone, deep down, is searching for nurturing, then really you ARE seeking those sorts of qualities on some level.
I'm not saying that friendships shouldn't be supportive or nurturing. I'm saying that there is a difference in romantic vs. platonic relationships that goes beyond physical attraction, and I think part of that does stem from the extent and nature of the nurturing of each kind of relationship.
-pH
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
But what I'm saying, pH, is that I think nurturing will happen regardless of who I end up with, so I don't need to specifically look for someone who will nurture me. I don't know how I'd even go about looking for that as a "quality" of a person, unless I was trying to hire a nanny.
So you can say I'm seeking nurturing "on some level" if you want. But when I'm actually making the decision about if I'm going to date someone, there is a whole shitload of other qualities I'm going to be looking at first. The nurturing will take care of itself.
Posted by Jeesh (Member # 9163) on :
OK, I'm 12, never had a boyfriend or anything like that but I still know what I think love is. I think it's a lot simpler than picking out qualities you like because one day, you might fall in love with someone with none of them.
Love is when you see someone and a spark lights up inside you.
Love is when someone offers you the t-shirt they won if they get and ipod (Happened today )
Love is when all your best friends come over for a huge pizza party.
Love is what you see when mommy kisses daddy. ( )
The original question was What is love? Why is it so hard?
I said what I think love is. Love is hard because not everyone wants to be in love. Love is hard because we look for certain qualities in a man or woman. Don't look for those people, look at them.
Thats what I think of love.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
But if the nurturing quality isn't there, then the other qualities really don't matter all that much.
Plus, a relationship is more than just a friendship plus a physical attraction.
-pH
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
We're going in circles. I think nurturing is a universal quality, and will be there if someone cares about you. If someone cares about you, there isn't an option of it not being there.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
There are a lot of different levels of nurturing. I know couples who stay home with each other when one is sick, make soup, go to the store for special treats, get them medicine, bring hot water bottles, etc.
I know other couples who are in healthy relationships, are in love, care about each other, and when one's sick, the other one calls the pizza delivery in for them, and then heads out to hang out with friends.
I guess it depends on how much nurturing you want.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:I know other couples who are in healthy relationships, are in love, care about each other, and when one's sick, the other one calls the pizza delivery in for them, and then heads out to hang out with friends.
That doesn't sound like a healthy relationship to me.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
If the sick person deals with being sick by eating pizza and wanting to be left alone, sure it does. Wouldn't work for me, but I'm not going to say it couldn't work for them.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
So, the girl I wrote about a while back, the one who was leaving for 2 months to go to a summer program in Ny. She got back this weekend.
She called me monday after classes and I suggested we have dinner or see a movie. She was a little unsure sounding, she said she just wanted to talk and catch up. I offered to come and cook something, so she said to come by at 8. I bough dinner ingrediants for a stir-fry, and went to her house.
From the moment I arrived she was aggitated, annoyed with me, so I thought, and edgy. She complained about being back in town and not around her musician peers anymore, and about the school and things in general, her parents etc. She didn't seem very happy, but said she had had a wonderful time in Ny. She has exema, and at that moment it was just aweful, the skin on her arms and neck was red from scratching, and my heart broke to see her like that. I didn't know what to say, I apologized for rushing into the situation, but she said it was alright. I cooked and she didn't want to eat anything, so I sat down with some stir fry- made tea and we talked about school and the music she was working on. Her roomate came by and said she was leaving for the evening.
As soon as her roomate was gone, she relaxed a little and looked me in the face from across the table. "I have two things to tell you," my mind is going 'OH CRAP, what.' it is not good when someone has two things to tell you.
She was unsure at first, didn't want to say anything, and I kept saying, 'its okay, what? don't worry whatever it is, don't worry about it, just tell me if you have to tell me.' She is what some might call "conservative christian," but she isn't politically conservative, and I think its the religious part that had her all freaked out. (I am not religious by the way, though not really judgemental of religious people).
"The first one is that I'm bisexual"
I just keep going, ok, and? In my head, though I know why she's telling me this, why she needs to share that so that she can tell me she's with someone else. So I say it for her "Your with someone..."
"yeah"
And I just kept reassuring her, its okay, I'm fine with it, don't worry about it. But my hand was shaking a little and I put it in my lap. She was worried that I would judge her for being with a woman, and I was simply dissapointed that she was with someone else! And all the times I had thought about her in the past two months, and the emails and aim notes we exchanged seemed different now too. I realized that I liked her alot and should have known her better before having hopes like I did.
It turns out that as a christian and being part of a fairly conservative vein in the local community, she is being ostracized for revealing this to her friends, and to her family. Which sickens me, really. I was being honest when I told her it didn't matter to me at all who she wanted to be with, even if it wasn't me. Not like I had some right or anything, we had only been out a few times, and been friends for a few months, but still I took it kind of hard. It took me this week to just digest the situation and get a grip on it.
I've gotta move on, and once again I don't have anyone to be close to. No one who is going to look forward to seeing me. Its a really awful feeling; I think I haven't ever known anything quite like it. If I have, its been a long time, and dissapointment like this is something that probably fades in the memory when you have new experiences. Still this is happening to me now, and its an aweful experience. I don't know what to do now.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Everyone copes with extreme disappointment and heartache in different ways.
Night at the bars with some friends works for some people I know.
Others like to be alone to wallow for awhile.
Some like to spend a lot of time with friends to remember what their life means without the person they were hoping to become closer to (or already were closer to).
You'll figure out in time what in fact is the best way for you to cope and move on, and believe me, I've been in similar situations to where you are now before, and time really does heal all wounds. Good luck.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
I haven't found a way to cope yet. I've been eating about 1,200 calories a day, which is not much for a guy 6'0 and 235 pounds. I don't know, I'm not hungry. I ate dinner tonight after my esophogus started giving me those wierd 'been a really long time between meals' feelings, and I realized I hadn't eaten in 10 hours. I can spare the weight, but its wierd not to be hungry at all.
Since its summer and most of my friends are around the state or not in my classes, the round of beers is harder to put together. Still, I think I am going to do that this weekend. I really need to set some time aside to be with my friends, I think. That's good advice Lyr.
edit: and not to turn this thread into my wallowing pit of shame and loneliness. Its just been a rough week. All this time things have been going so well, and I've been really optimistic. This really hit me harder than it would have if I hadn't already been feeling so isolated and lonely. I can't see the point at which I'm going to be able to relate to people in a new way. I keep thinking its happening, its happening, finally, but its just one stumble after another, and I'm always so wrong about people.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I'm sorry - that is dissapointing.
Posted by Edgehopper (Member # 1716) on :
At least you can comfort yourself in knowing it's not your fault, you didn't do anything wrong. I recommend comisserating with male friends, preferably the sort you can comisserate with. Go out and do something fun that couldn't possibly relate to romance (sports bars, video games, take your pick.) It helps to stay active doing stuff that won't remind you of what you're missing. Batting cages or a golf driving range are great ways to get out aggression by hitting an object with a large club.
Posted by Squish (Member # 9191) on :
I hope you feel better, Orincoro. Like Edgehopper said, it's not your fault. I just had my (now-ex) boyfriend visit his ex-girlfriend last weekend and come back to tell me that he is still in love with her. All after he had told me that he missed me while he was gone, etc etc. Hard when he's said that he misses you and you know he still dreams about you. Don't forget to eat and drink water. It's landed me in the sh*thole lately. So take care of yourself first and foremost.
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: edit: and not to turn this thread into my wallowing pit of shame and loneliness. Its just been a rough week. All this time things have been going so well, and I've been really optimistic. This really hit me harder than it would have if I hadn't already been feeling so isolated and lonely. I can't see the point at which I'm going to be able to relate to people in a new way. I keep thinking its happening, its happening, finally, but its just one stumble after another, and I'm always so wrong about people.
It's not necessarily that you were/are wrong about people. I think its just so hard to read them. You can never know what someone is thinking, you can only guess.
[ August 11, 2006, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: Squish ]
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Orincoro: Sorry to hear that man, it's a crappy situation to be in.
While I know it doesn't help a lot right now, I'll offer a little advice from both personal experience, and what I would tell clients in the dating service in San Francisco.
Now is the time for yourself. Yeah, it's a great feeling to have someone else, but a lot of people forget that it should also be a great feeling just to have time to work on you. It sounds silly at first, but when you really think about it, it makes good sense.
You may have different relationships over the course of your life, but you've always got to live with yourself, so you should be happy with who you are. Between relationships, you don't have any commitment to someone else, so you can focus on you without neglecting anyone. If you want to spend a whole week doing exactly what you feel like, nobody feels left out.
Now is the time when you get to take up a hobby, or get involved in a group that you've been interested in. Now is the time to think about your own life and what YOU want to do. If you have ever wanted to do something like go white water rafting, learn to shoot a gun, sew your own clothes, play a musical instrument, whatever it is, now's the time to give it a shot.
If you feel like you want to work on something, maybe you feel too shy around new people, or you want to get in better shape. Go for it. The great thing about not being in a relationship is that all the energy you would be devoting to someone else, you can devote to you.
This is great because you need attention right now. You're hurt, so you should take care of yourself. Also, the better you know yourself, the better you'll be able to find the right person next time. The more fun you have now, the more interesting things you do, the more attractive you will become to people.
Right after a breakup is a bad time to go looking for love, so it's the perfect time to focus on yourself. Everybody needs some Me Time now and then. You can even pretend to go on dates with yourself if you like. It's silly, but fun. Think, "I would have bought a dozen flowers and a day at the spa for a girl, so I'm going to treat myself instead!"
I hope you feel better soon. Don't beat yourself up too much. Remember that she didn't stop seeing you because anything is wrong with you, she stopped seeing you because she realized that she was different and needed something else.
Focus on taking care of yourself. Eat right and get some sleep, the rest will start getting better on its own Posted by Angiomorphism (Member # 8184) on :
Things are always tough at the beginning.. I know, I just split with someone who I was dating for more than a year at the beginning of the summer. But the saying is true, time heals all wounds, and I can say that right now, 3 months later, I am really enjoying being single.
I am one of those serial monogomist types, and in the past 5 years, I've only been single for a few months, and right now I'm finding it to be a really liberating experience. Something else that is nice is now I don't feel bad being a little flirty with a cute girl here and there. Just in the past week, on three seperate occasions, I have basically been "picked up" by a girl completely out of the blue, with very little work on my part. It's nice having a few numbers and a few options, but I might not even explore them at this point because it's important to take time for yourself after a long relationship.
So just hang in there, and seriously, there are other people out there, and eventually the right one will come along. So don't beat yourself up about things you can't control, like people's sexual inclinations, and their desires to explore those feelings.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
There's this book by Shel Silverstein, I believe its called "The Missing Piece Meets the Big O". I was going through sort of the same downer type situation as you are and I was browsing through a bookstore and randomly picked it up, and it really helped. It made sense to me. It's a very juvenile book, but the point of it is valid and helpful. I would recommend it. If you can't find it, I can send you a copy.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: Right after a breakup is a bad time to go looking for love, so it's the perfect time to focus on yourself. Everybody needs some Me Time now and then. You can even pretend to go on dates with yourself if you like. It's silly, but fun. Think, "I would have bought a dozen flowers and a day at the spa for a girl, so I'm going to treat myself instead!"
Focus on taking care of yourself. Eat right and get some sleep, the rest will start getting better on its own
I appreciate the sentiment, but I think you missed the broader outline of my story. We never had a relationship, things were just sort of starting when this happened, and I am kind of unreasonably shaken by it. I think that I am probably more bothered by how sad and unhappy she seemed when I saw her, because I find that I really care about her, like her alot, and now I can't be close to her in the way I thought we could be. It makes me feel powerless, even though I know you don't go into relationships to "fix" people. Part of me just wanted to hold her in my arms and tell her I was going to protect her from the world that was treating her so badly; I really wanted to do that but I couldn't.
I think, to be honest, part of my problem with relating to others is that I don't really define myself in the relationship. When someone doesn't feel that you are a rock or a place that's hard and part of you is unchanging and solid from day to day, then they can't lean against you or rely on you in any way. I think I make myself intangible to people, being so focused on knowing them and being near them, they don't really come to know me or be near me. I think if she had known me better, and if I had been a little more self-centered or something, she wouldn't have felt that she had to put all the focus on herself, and her problem. It made it harder for her to have to explain herself and be seen by someone else, even if that person did care.
I jokingly offered at one point to tell her all of my horrible life problems, and she actually brightened at the suggestion; it would have been a relief not to have be absorbed in her problems for a moment. But I couldn't think of anything to complain about that seemed like something anyone would care about. Its stupid, but I didn't share anything at all.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
quote: I think, to be honest, part of my problem with relating to others is that I don't really define myself in the relationship. When someone doesn't feel that you are a rock or a place that's hard and part of you is unchanging and solid from day to day, then they can't lean against you or rely on you in any way. I think I make myself intangible to people, being so focused on knowing them and being near them, they don't really come to know me or be near me. I think if she had known me better, and if I had been a little more self-centered or something, she wouldn't have felt that she had to put all the focus on herself, and her problem. It made it harder for her to have to explain herself and be seen by someone else, even if that person did care.
You just described me and what I see as my problem in relationships. My last relationship was the one from my dreams. It was like a fairy tale, at least for me, because this beautiful girl who I really really really liked actually was actually attracted to me. It didn't work out, as I've chronicled somewhat here on Hatrack, and I attribute it not working out to the fact that I didn't make her care enough about me. I didn't put myself out there for her to know enough about me to care. That was her reason for breaking up with me - She didn't care enough. She couldn't make herself care enough. Lately I've been thinking more about it and for me I think it's a matter of trust and self-confidence, or lack thereof. I didn't trust her to still be attracted to me if I ... made her work too much? Let her see too much of me? If that makes any sense. Anyway, I've vowed to not make the same mistake next time around. We shall see.
I know a bit houw you feel though, in my own way. It sucks.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Orincoro, it sounded to me like you were treating it in your head like a relationship/breakup. People don't generally have "the talk" with someone they've casually dated a few times. I know you two weren't really a couple, but if it feels like a break-up to you, it still hurts.
If you're not defining yourself in the relationship, that's even more reason to focus on yourself now. You have to go into a relationship 50-50. If you don't feel like you can contribute 50% of the relationship, that's where you can help yourself and your future dates.
Posted by Squish (Member # 9191) on :
Hope you're feeling better and eating well.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: It's about the fact that you can't make generalizations about 150 million people in this country and think that they have any meaning at all.
I disagree with this and I kind of agree with Cow in the preceding debate, because, in America, being a man and being a woman definitely still means something. There are character traits and ways of behavior that are generally associated with each sex in the social mind. Some people speculate that some of these traits are reinforced by biology. One of these, as we discussed on another thread, is the sexual double standard.
Of course, there are plenty of exceptions, as evidenced by this thread, but that doesn't mean that you can't say that most men or women are a certain way because they are men or women.
I have to confess that I'm a little confused by what Eljay is saying at this point and exactly how she disagrees with MC. So, if I've misunderstood, please let me know.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Also, I am sorry to hear that your situation did not work out, Orincoro. Better luck next time. Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Squish: Hope you're feeling better and eating well.
1. MightyCow, I think you may be right about that.
2. I have not been eating well, and I haven't been hungry in days. I have experienced this before though, you get a little depressed an all the sudden you're tired all the time, sore, your back hurts and the world is twice as heavy. But, I've talked about it with a few friends, and that has made me feel better, as well as hearing the hatrack perspective on things, I think I'll be fine in a week.
Well, I have a friend-date at the local pub to get ready for, so I will just try -Try- to relax and enjoy a few (pitchers maybe) of beer. To alcohol, the cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems!
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