This is topic Oregon Pastor warns that an earthquake will devaste Willamette Valley June 18 in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.
Pastor Lloyd Day, of a Messianic Congregation in Oregon, claims he has been given more than one dream urging him to warn people that a 9.2 earthquake will devastate the Willamette Valley, cause the Bonneville Dam to collapse, and send a wall of water downstream that will devastate Portland and Salem, on June 18. He seems sincere.
I wonder what the handicap is on that action.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Depends on if you live in Portland, I guess.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
You know, in all seriousness, if bookies aren't in on this already, they should be.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
I really want to comment, but I'd probably get banned.
Posted by TrapperKeeper (Member # 7680) on :
Wow, he must actually pay attention to when God speaks to him. On the other hand, Pat Robertson said that what God told him was rather vague.
9.2 huh. I would hope his congregation either fires him or finds help for him afterwards. That really does count as being delusional.
Wait, what am I thinking, Pat Robertson has been making such predictions off and on for years and idiots still listen to him. It will just be that people repented and went to church enough that God decided to spare people the disaster.
Sorry, stuff like this both entertains me and makes me angry at the same time
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I think it would be incredibly interesting if Pastor Day started a blog on June 19th detailing his reactions to the failure of his prophecy to come true. Heck, I'd be very interested in reading his thoughts leading up to deciding to disclose his prophetic vision.
It's entirely possible, even likely, that he has been having these dreams and been struggling with coming out and telling people about them. While I think it's giving the majority of prophecy oriented Christians too much credit to say that his ministry would be over if his predictions didn't come true, it's still a pretty darn big risk to take. I don't believe for a second that what he's saying is going to come to pass, but even so, you've got to respect someone who is willing to lay themselves out like that.
Edit: From what I've read here, Pastor Day doesn't give off the same self-serving, power/money grubbing air of prophecy making that Pat Robertson and his televangelistic brethern do. He sounds like this is actually coming out of a place of integrity, misplaced though it may be. I'd suggest pity is a more appropriate emotion than anger.
Posted by Happy Camper (Member # 5076) on :
What the... dangit. I've only been here 5 months and already I'm bringing the bad weather (or geologic disturbances, as it were) with me. Most consecutive days of rain in however many years it's been, then an earthquake? Gyah!
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Thinking about it, this opens up a whole new frontier for environmental conservation. We just need t oget Christian preachers to have/fake prophetic dreams about the likely effects of pollution.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Interesting. I'll have to make sure I'm not in the valley that day...and warn all my friends who live in Salem. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:While I think it's giving the majority of prophecy oriented Christians too much credit to say that his ministry would be over if his predictions didn't come true, it's still a pretty darn big risk to take.
If it did happen, what would need to be said about those who don't start listening to this man's message?
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Hey, that's actually kind of brilliant. Maybe people with a rich fantasy life could do some good for a change. The difficulty is that they are all too likely to decide that nuclear power stations pollute a lot more than cars.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:If it did happen, what would need to be said about those who don't start listening to this man's message?
I really don't know how to respond to that. What do you think would need to be said about them?
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee:
quote:While I think it's giving the majority of prophecy oriented Christians too much credit to say that his ministry would be over if his predictions didn't come true, it's still a pretty darn big risk to take.
If it did happen, what would need to be said about those who don't start listening to this man's message?
If an earthquake that measures 9.2 on the richter scale naturally hits the exact spot he says, no deviation in anythingon June 18, then I might have to re-read the new testament.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky:
quote:If it did happen, what would need to be said about those who don't start listening to this man's message?
I really don't know how to respond to that. What do you think would need to be said about them?
Well, you said it would be to his current followers "credit" if they stopped following him after the deadline passes.
Would it be to others' debit to not follow him if he happens to be dead-on accurate?
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Narnia, anyone in the Willamette Valley who decides to go on a Sunday outing with his family on the 18th just to play it safe, also ought to take their pets with them.
Posted by TrapperKeeper (Member # 7680) on :
I had the same thought of, "what if it did?" Sooner or later someones predcition will come true. Don't think it will be this one though.
And I agree from reading a bit of his posting that he does seem to be deserving more of pity than anything else. He is deluded, but it seems his intentions are honorable.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
If he REALLY believed, he'd be shorting the stock of companies in Oregon. Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
In 1906 a fire and brimstone preacher in California predicted a major, but unspecified, disaster would punish the sinners on the Barbary coast.
Two days later the great SF Earthquake leveled/burned the city.
That minister's church was packed beyond capacity the next Sunday, and the "Revival" movement was born in America.
Just pointing out strange facts you can learn on the History Channel.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
I'm pretty sure the revival movement was going strong before 1906.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
For some reason the first thing that came to mind was this Buffy quote:
Buffy (speaking to Giles): What if the quake was a sign? Ah, a bad omen and we just ignore it? There is going to be a lot of red faces when the world comes to an end.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I'm highly doubting that with a 9.2, the congregation would actually be far enough away not to be affected, and it would take most of Portland for sure. On the other hand given that they live so close to Mt St Hellens there might be good odds for a 2.9 quake that day...
AJ
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Everyone should read the story of Jonah.
He's the very model of the reluctant prophet. Ran away, got swallowed by a whale and spat out.
Got mad because God changed his mind & didn't smite the evil-doers. Just because they repented and dressed up in sack cloth (even the cows wore sack cloth!)
Anyway, the life of a prophet is no fun.
I wonder if this guy will re-examine his teachings on homosexuality after his prophecy fails to come true.
It would seem the logical course of action to at least look at whether his beliefs are somehow askew.
Posted by Seatarsprayan (Member # 7634) on :
quote:If an earthquake that measures 9.2 on the richter scale naturally hits the exact spot he says, no deviation in anythingon June 18, then I might have to re-read the new testament.
Me too, because I believe in the New Testament and believe it teaches against current miraculous revelations and so therefore treat ALL modern prophecies as bunk. So if a really specific one was fulfilled, it would really shake me up.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
quote:Originally posted by BannaOj: I'm highly doubting that with a 9.2, the congregation would actually be far enough away not to be affected, and it would take most of Portland for sure. On the other hand given that they live so close to Mt St Hellens there might be good odds for a 2.9 quake that day...
AJ
There's a thought. Maybe his prophetic dreams were sent by a dislexic god?
Posted by Mazer (Member # 192) on :
Lol at TomD's handicap comment.
I guess two weeks from now we will see how this guy is doing.
Posted by Palliard (Member # 8109) on :
Somebody peddling DOOOOOM! That's original.
At least this one's fairly short-term and will be quickly disproven.
I wish I had a nickel for every time I was DOOOOMed... that would be a very tall stack of nickels.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I'm gonna sing the Doom Song now!
-pH
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
Maybe it's a bizarre manifestation of my limited, confused faith that although I am logically inclined to disbelieve this, part of me wonders very seriously what I will do if it comes true.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I think the really interesting thing about this is that he doesn't really seem to be a doom merchant. Now, I obviously don't have a full view of the situation, but it really sounds to me like Day feels compelled almost against his better judgement to relate his vision. It sounds like he really believes that this is going to come to pass and feels like he has to let people know, even though there's a significant risk he's going to look foolish.
What little I've read doesn't sound like the typical pattern of doomsday cults, whose strength comes directly from the immense doubt they feel, nor like a Pat Roberston-esque play for power. I'm really finding myself fascinated by this guy.
[ June 07, 2006, 02:03 AM: Message edited by: MrSquicky ]
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Dag, I still don't understand why you think your question is relevant. You seem to be drawing an equivilence for reasons I don't get. Perhaps if you could give your own thoughts, I'd be better able to see where you are coming from. I also don't think you understand my use of the word "credit".
Seekers after prophecy, faith healing, and the like are generally desperate people. Christian preachers claiming to be prophets, but whose prophecies are either incredibly vauge, or just turn out not to be true have been a more or less constant presence, but people still follow them.
It's like, you could show a Johnathan Edwards crowd him screwing up or exactly how he performs his tricks, but they're still going to believe in him, because, what else have they got?
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Well, if his prophecy does come true, then certainly, we might look at how he did it. One doesn't have to postulate that his explanation of his dreams is the true one, after all; if he were subconsciously noticing indications of a coming earthquake, naturally his dreaming mind would put it in terms of his faith. However, in the meanwhile, I am prepared to put up a small sum of money that there will be no earthquake of magnitude greater than 4 in Willamette that day. Say, fifty bucks? I'll give reasonable odds.
Posted by Jet (Member # 9475) on :
I'm don't know if it is going to happen. I don't pay much attantion to proficies until they happen. But, in saying that I'm going to laugh. Not that a 9.2 earthquike is funny or anything like that. I'm going to die laughing if a 2.9 earthquike happens on the 18th.
But, I think if a 2.9 happened it would be the preacher that was dislexic not God.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: Dag, I still don't understand why you think your question is relevant.
I was curious. If you don't want to answer, fine.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
quote:if he were subconsciously noticing indications of a coming earthquake, naturally his dreaming mind would put it in terms of his faith.
So...are you saying that if it happened just the way he predicted -- magnitude, time and place -- your preferred explanation is that he subconsciously was noticing natural phenomena and those somehow percolated through his dreams?
Seems we have an answer to Dag's question...
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
BannaOj, isn't Mt. Hood closer to Portland? It last erupted about 200 years ago.
Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
I think Dag's question is perfectly valid. I also think it's all too easy to give yourself an "out" no matter if you believe his prediction or not. If there's no earthquake, believers can say we were spared through prayer (or any other reason they like). If there is an earthquake, doubters can say it's a coincidence, or that with all the prophecies people make one was bound to come true eventually.
I really don't see the outcome of this changing very many people's beliefs either way.
--Enigmatic
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Well, I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. If there's an earthquake, I'll send $100 to his ministry.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
If anyone wants to take a piece of that action, I'll give you 50:1 odds.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
I expect this thread to be bumped on June 18th (hopefully by seismic forces )
I am personally skeptical about an earthquake happening at that specified time and magnitude, but Ill hold my tongue until the proof is in the pudding.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz:
quote:if he were subconsciously noticing indications of a coming earthquake, naturally his dreaming mind would put it in terms of his faith.
So...are you saying that if it happened just the way he predicted -- magnitude, time and place -- your preferred explanation is that he subconsciously was noticing natural phenomena and those somehow percolated through his dreams?
Not necessarily, I'm just pointing out that the way the pastor explains it ain't necessarily the way it actually happened.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: If anyone wants to take a piece of that action, I'll give you 50:1 odds.
I'll take that. I'll send you $1 if there is not an earthquake. You send me $50 if there is one.
Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
Tom, you should probably state how specific your bet is, just to be fair. Are you only paying out if there's an earthquake of exactly 9.2, or anything over a certain level. Even Day's letter didn't sound too confident on the 9.2 rating, just that the number "seemed significant."
I don't personally think his dream is likely to come true, but I may take you up on it just because I like the odds.
--Enigmatic
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men:
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz:
quote:if he were subconsciously noticing indications of a coming earthquake, naturally his dreaming mind would put it in terms of his faith.
So...are you saying that if it happened just the way he predicted -- magnitude, time and place -- your preferred explanation is that he subconsciously was noticing natural phenomena and those somehow percolated through his dreams?
Not necessarily, I'm just pointing out that the way the pastor explains it ain't necessarily the way it actually happened.
I do have to agree with KOM that if the event happens exactly as the pastor specified, that does not mean the pastor was FOR CERTAIN inspired.
broken clock is right twice a day, and all that jazz.
It certainly indicates that the evidence is in the pastors favor, but I am reminded by a certain man who predicted alot of things that came true at least according to some, who said in effect, "Signs do not produce faith."
An earthquake is not a good foundation (excuse the humor) for building ones house on.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I'll let the exact magnitude of the quake slide, actually. A quake of any size over 5, say, that also directly results in the most meaningful part of the dream: the rupture of the dam and flooding of Portland.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I'll let the exact magnitude of the quake slide, actually. A quake of any size over 5, say, that also directly results in the most meaningful part of the dream: the rupture of the dam and flooding of Portland.
Sounds good to me, I'll still wager my $1.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Sounds good. I'll close the books on the 16th. Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Humf. Why are people taking TomD's bet, but not mine? Posted by Enigmatic (Member # 7785) on :
Because Tom specified odds, would be my guess.
--Enigmatic
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Humf. Why are people taking TomD's bet, but not mine?
I liked his 50:1 odds, that and the lack of foreign currency conversions. Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Like Mr. Squicky, I find this guy very interesting. Most modern "prophets" are vauge to to the point of obscurity, with little detail to pin them down on. This guy is very confident and specific about his facts.
quote: There was a big Gay Pride Parade going on in downtown Portland when the earthquake hit and buildings came tumbling down on all of those there. Portland was in total devastation. I’m not sure just how big the earthquake was but the number of 9.2 seems significant. There was also a major earthquake off the west coast that started a tsunami. Not too long after the quake in Portland, a wall of water from the collapse of the Bonneville Dam came rushing through Portland. A little while later another wall of water from the tsunami came up the Columbia River and it also came rushing through Portland.
The tsunami is important, because not only is the preacher talking about one very unlikely event, a very powerful earthquake, he's talking about several:
1)the 9.8 main quake
2)the dam breaking, sending a flood downstream to Portland
3)the off shore quake
4)the tsunami surging upstream through Portland
Sure, 1 causes 2 and 3 causes 4, but still. Has anyplace in recorded history had a devasting quake PLUS a powerful tsunami, on the same day? AFAIK, no.
Taken together, it's too unlikely for any rational person [except KoM, he gets a waiver] to call such a prediction, assuming it came true, a coincidence. It's all just too unlikely; Brother Day can be forgiven for being vauge about the magnitude when he has such specificity about the rest.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Ron Lambert, yes, Portland is probably closer to Mt. Hood and more Dormant volcanos. However, if there is a big enough quake at Mt. St. Helens it can shockwave through the earth enough to end up as an effectively smaller magnitude quake all around the geographic location.
The 6.4 Big Bear Quake, (an aftershock to the larger Landers Quake) was felt with significant shaking, (I saw my brothers playing in the street, going up and down) over 200 miles away, and Mt St Helens is only about 100 miles from Portland.
AJ
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
I would not call it a coincidence. Neither would I not necessarily call it 'inspired by the Christian God'. It could just as well be the Invisible Pink Unicorn.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Consider the date in question. 6/18/6.
18=6+6+6
Or it can be written like this
6 6 +6 ------ 6/18/6
Which is an inverted cross.
Of course I am making all this up just to play on unrelated superstitions, but them I'm evil like that.
Posted by Palliard (Member # 8109) on :
quote: Has anyplace in recorded history had a devasting quake PLUS a powerful tsunami, on the same day?
Didn't a chunk of western Sumatra get flattened by the huge earthquake that caused the Boxing Day Tsunami... and then get washed out to sea by that tsunami?
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
If there is an earthquake of sufficient magnitude to collapse Bonneville Dam and lead to the flooding of some portions of Portland, that would seem to be close enough to specifications to count as a fulfillment. If it all occurs on June 18, the odds are pretty astronomical against it being sheer chance.
I have heard from RALovett on another forum (he lives in the Willamette Valley) that most of Portland is about 100 feet higher than the rivers that go through it, and he questions whether the collapse of Bonneville Dam would create a sufficiently high wall of water. As for the tsunami that also figures into the scenario, that is hard to figure, since it would seem to be unprecedented there.
Of course, Mt. Hood last erupted about 200 years ago, and Mt. St. Helens has a violent history in modern times, as most of us remember. After consulting a map, I would guess that Mt. St. Helens might be slightly closer to Portland, but Mt. Hood is closer to Bonneville Dam. Who knows what could be about to happen in the Cascadia subduction zone?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Fifty bucks says I do. You on?
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
I would hate to profit from other people's misfortune. That's the same reason I refuse to participate in shorting stocks. (Shorting stocks should be illegal--it could provide a profit motive for people to engage in sabotage, so they could profit from shorting targeted stocks.)
Obviously I do not know if Pastor Day's dream prediction will come true. The odds are against it, surely. But it could happen, and I prefer to have an open mind. I thought it was worth letting other people know about the prediction, just in case. If I lived in the Willamette Valley, I would plan to be someplace safe--with my pets--on June 18. And no, I would not treat just any prediction with this kind of respect. Pastor Day seems respectable and sincere, credible enought to be taken seriously. Really, what would it hurt to plan a Sunday family outing for that day?
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Thank you for being kind enough to try and warn people, Mr. Lambert. Even though I am skeptical that the event will come to pass, I recognize that you believe that the possibilities may be different and are acting under that assumption. I think you should be saluted for your act of kindness in the face of the ridicule that I'm sure you knew was coming.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
Please note that the group that Day represents is considered a cult by Christians and Jews both.
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
Why Stephan, what makes them a cult? I'm not trying to set up an argument here, I'm just curious. My wife got told at work the other day by a customer(in great detail for about 10 minutes) that she belonged to a cult and unless she stopped reading the Book of Mormon and truly accepted Jesus, she was going to burn in hell.
I don't know anything about this group-perhaps they do some truly crazy Kool-Aid drinking mass suicide things. I just know I'm a little sensitive to cult references.
Posted by ReikoDemosthenes (Member # 6218) on :
Crazy... Maybe the earthquake we've had predicted for around a decade and a half or so decided to move south.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Put like that, Ron, you're entirely right. I'm sorry I've been so confrontational about it.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by BaoQingTian: Why Stephan, what makes them a cult? I'm not trying to set up an argument here, I'm just curious. My wife got told at work the other day by a customer(in great detail for about 10 minutes) that she belonged to a cult and unless she stopped reading the Book of Mormon and truly accepted Jesus, she was going to burn in hell.
I don't know anything about this group-perhaps they do some truly crazy Kool-Aid drinking mass suicide things. I just know I'm a little sensitive to cult references.
I do realize that the term cult is rather broad, and I am defintitely not an expert on the matter. Being a cult is also not necessarily a bad thing.
When speaking of cults in negative terms, I have found them to share certain characteristics. They tend to take the central focus away from G-d. By anouncing himself a prohphet I think Day definitely qualifies.
Negative cults usually use deceitful recruitment methods. Interfaith Jewish and Christian councils have agreed that these Messianic Hebrew groups definitely do that. They also hide the fact that the majority of their members are not Jewish. They have also been found to target those with emotional needs, or pressure them from breaking all ties with friends and family that don't agree with their doctrine.
Do my above points include Mormonism? I personally don't think so. Is your church funded by other religions with ulterior motives? Doubtful. The Mormon missionaries I have encountered have all been very kind, and free of pressure. The few Mormons I have known, never broke ties with family or friends for not believing the same thing.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
I'm not personally worried about this particular event, though I am concerned about the possible devastating effects of a Cascadia Subduction Zone earthquake. I just don't think it'll happen on the day the guy predicts.
It's interesting that Day doesn't seem to be the typical "prophet" guy who just wants attention. I vote for well-meaning and probably delusional rather than a faker. Then again, he could just be very good at making himself seem sincere. Or I suppose he could be genuine. I'm not holding my breath, but at least we'll find out in a week and a half. My family's in the Willamette Valley, but I'm not going to worry.
Posted by TrapperKeeper (Member # 7680) on :
/hijack thread
Websters Definition of a Cult: A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader. The followers of such a religion or sect. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
I'm not Mormon, and really not even religious, but I would consider Mormonism to be in the stages of moving from a cult to a religion. I believe it did start with a charismatic leader, and it definately is/was considered to be false by many. As time goes by and it gains more believers and acceptance of others, I think it becomes more religion and less cult.
I do remember some sociology studies in college that referred to the Mormons as a cult and studied their recruitment methods. So there is some truth to the word cult, it just depends on how you define/view the word cult.
/end thread hijacking
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
They really need a new word for "negative cult" compared to the above definitions. Any religion could really be definied as a cult, by other religions.
Posted by TrapperKeeper (Member # 7680) on :
Yup. I really think of it as a religion that hasn't gotten big enough to be accepted by the general population yet.
Then there are the crazy cool-aid drinking cults. But they have their own built in problems with growth. They will never gain too many members before the alien ship flies over and tells them to drink their rat poison laced cool-aid.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
There is a three generation rule for cults: if a cult lasts more than three generations, then it's no longer a cult. Not universally accepted, of course.
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
Thanks guys. The somewhat cynical reply that I've heard in the past when posing this question (in person) is that the difference between a religion and a cult is that a religion is bigger. I suspect that Judaism under Moses, early Christianity under Christ, and Islam under Mohammed (PBUH) would have been considered cults too. Small groups, charismatic leaders, considered radical or false by other groups at the time, etc.
What you posted made a lot of sense Stephan (in your reply right below Tom's). Thanks.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:There was a big Gay Pride Parade going on in downtown Portland when the earthquake hit
Interestingly, this is the point that makes the story the most unreal to me.
quote:If I speak up and nothing happens then I emerge as a false prophet
He does cover his bases, this guy.
quote:there were two men standing there.
I read this and thought "someone's been reading a lot of Lot recently."
You know what I think? I think this guy actually had this dream. I think he was caught up in the disaster of New Orleans, as he says at the beginning, and I think at the same time he was thinking about his dislike of homosexuality. Naturally, being a preacher, he would be very familiar with the story Sodom and Gomorrah, which would naturally be at the top of his mind in connection with these two things he obviously feels very concerned about.
In addition to the Gay Pride Parade and the wall of water is the hazy mention of men with guns- terrorists. Again, this is something that might come in connection with the two things, given what happened in New Orleans. (The fact that they fade back into the rubble and seem unconnected with anything else seems like the randomness of a dream to me.)
Okay, so think back to a vivid dream of yours, one that really seemed to be clear and meaningful. When you wake up, you would tend to remember it clearly. On top of that your brain tries to make sense of dream storylines- when you wake up an incomplete story can become complete simply because trying to infuse order into a story is a human thing to do.
Now imagine that you really feel very strongly about the images you see in a dream, like this guy. On top of that, your entire being during the daytime is full of talks about dreams from God and the truthfulness of them.
What would you do? Honestly, I think this guy actually had a dream. I think then he was so worried by this dream that he actually managed to continue his dream with the second "confirmation dream", curiously linked with the frustration of being unable to complete a cylindrical puzzle.
Add a little bit of delusionalness to him, a little bit of disconnect from reality and you get a man highly convinced by what he has dreamt one restless night.
Also: Notice the date was not provided in the dream, but by the man's own investigation in order to make sense of his dream. Already, he is adding in facts to a record of something that exists only in his brain.
Even more also: If God sent two "solid" angels to warn Lot, why not send "solid" angels (rather than dreams) to this guy? I guess applying logic to a being such as God is a bit complicated...
-------
Many people have said that if it does occur (which I think would be highly fascinating- way more fascinating than it not occuring, which is just boring) they would read the Bible more or reconsider their position.
I take quite the opposite viewpoint. I think that if there is a God and he's the kind of being who goes around drowning people because of homosexuality and other similar totally harmless so-called "sins"*, then I don't want anything to do with him even more than I do as an atheist.
*Let's not argue on this point. This is my opinion, not the beginning of a debate.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
Well if it means anything, most of us said that because we don't actually believe it will happen.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Ooooh, I know, but I'm speaking purely on the most hypothetical level here. I didn't mean to be recriminating at all!
I clearly don't believe at all it will happen. I just like to imagine all the possible sides of something like this because I think far, far, too much.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by Teshi: Ooooh, I know, but I'm speaking purely on the most hypothetical level here. I didn't mean to be recriminating at all!
I clearly don't believe at all it will happen. I just like to imagine all the possible sides of something like this because I think far, far, too much.
Oh I know, its fun to think about. Especially when work is slow.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Frankly I believe God is a much better marksman than this. Oooh, Joe sinned, so I am going to kill almost everyone in a 10 mile radius. Talk about your Overkill.
Posted by Palliard (Member # 8109) on :
quote: Talk about your Overkill.
This is the same god that drowned the entire earth, wiped out a generation of Egyptians with plagues and burning hail, and flattened whole cities with earthquakes and brimstone? Or am I thinking of somebody else?
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Whose to say God can't develop more compassion and forgiveness and patience?
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I'm wondering what people will think if there is an earthquake, but it fails to rupture the dam. I'm also thinking the man does seem to be pretty unique these days.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shan: Whose to say God can't develop more compassion and forgiveness and patience?
Or better aim?
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
God also told Abraham that if there were ten righteous people in Sodom, He would spare Sodom. It could be that the only reason many of our cities are spared destruction is because there are faithful followers of God in them, to whom those who may ridicule them owe their very lives.
There is also mercy mixed with destructive judgments--no matter how great the disaster, usually some survive. We can always say, "It could have been worse."
Posted by TrapperKeeper (Member # 7680) on :
Maybe. Or maybe natural disasters happen with no causal relationship to the morality of human actions within our cities.
I subscribe to the latter.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:God also told Abraham that if there were ten righteous people in Sodom, He would spare Sodom. It could be that the only reason many of our cities are spared destruction is because there are faithful followers of God in them, to whom those who may ridicule them owe their very lives.
I think you're confusing your terms there. Righteous doesn't equal faithful follower of God.
Considering the level morality shown by the mainstream Christians throughout the ages, I think it's entirely possible, accepting the "God will spare those surrounded by the righteous" postulate, that at some times the Christians owed their survival to the non-Christians that they were persecuting.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Unless you equate righteousness with being a believer...
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Teshi I agree. I've had some wierd-ass dreams, that take a hodgepodge of things in my life and lump them together and that sounded like a general weird ass dream.
I've also dwelled way too long trying to figure out what a few vivid dreams meant, and got myself into a peck of trouble doing so. My brain went into a recursive loop that it took a long time to get out of, and it wasn't a particularly healthy recursive loop.
AJ
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
TrapperKeeper, I think both are true. Some things happen because it is God's will, and some things happen that are just the outworking of random chance. Note Ecclesiastes 9:11: "I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all."
As I view it, we as a race have told God to back off and give us space, and He has complied--then we complain whenever He allows something bad to happen.
And just because God might warn someone like Pastor Day when something bad is about to happen, does not necessarily mean He wishes for it to happen as a punitive judgment.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
2 days to go. Has everyone in Oregon made out their wills?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Books are closed.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Books are closed.
2 days prior to the event, and here I just got a whole butt load of money put together.
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
Duck and cover, people!
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: God also told Abraham that if there were ten righteous people in Sodom, He would spare Sodom.
Which is a highly interesting assertion. Are you seriously proposing that there were no children in Sodom? Or perhaps, being sodomites in the literal sense of the term, the children were all equally guilty as their parents? I suggest that you think carefully before you answer; defending a genocide is not usually that easy.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men:
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: God also told Abraham that if there were ten righteous people in Sodom, He would spare Sodom.
Which is a highly interesting assertion. Are you seriously proposing that there were no children in Sodom? Or perhaps, being sodomites in the literal sense of the term, the children were all equally guilty as their parents? I suggest that you think carefully before you answer; defending a genocide is not usually that easy.
You could argue that the children had no chance at living good meaningful lives as the entire society was steeped in iniquity. It was an act of mercy to end their lives so as to spare them from such a disgustingly wicked upbringing.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
You could argue that but I think that the children would have rather a different opinion.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Children who die before the moral age of accountability, in my opinion, will be saved.
But God has a right to kill anyone of us, child or not. He created us, His spirit sustains and maintains us, He knows us and expreriences with us everything we experience. Thus not only does He own us by right of creation, He must endure the intimate knowledge of our sin and suffering, rage and pain, from the inside out, despite having a nature that is perfectly pure and holy. At some point, He is entitled to say "Enough," and cease to bear the agony of enabling our sinful lives to continue any further.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Teshi: You could argue that but I think that the children would have rather a different opinion.
If you presented children with a vision of life in a hell hole, and life in a spirit world prepared by God, I dont think you would find many children hard pressed to choose between the two.
Not that I have little respect for children, but people make decisions that are in the childrens best intrests that go against childrens' perceived desires ALL the time.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
No whining, BlackBlade. I announced the final date days ago. Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:But God has a right to kill anyone of us...and cease to bear the agony of enabling our sinful lives to continue any further.
I don't buy into that kind of God. Well, technically, any kind of God, but hypothetically speaking...
If you create a race that is not only deeply flawed by has the capability to reason and think on its own, and you give them rules that are in many ways seemingly (or truly) irrational do you not expect them to question, change and break the rules?
Say I create my own miniature race and I set them loose in a world that I have built in my basement and I give them a somewhat obscure book containing rules like "Gold is an evil Devil-metal because it's soft. Don't use it." Sooner or later some bright spark is going to ask why this should be and he should come to the conclusion that it is completely irrational.
Now I may indeed have some legitimate reason why I gave this law but since I did not communicate my own reasons to my people they do not have all the information. There are two choices for them: some may decide to trust in my words, some may decide the book was written wrong, others will go the scientific rational route and start making their electrical units with gold because it conducts well.
Now, as a decent rational being myself I can't really fault those who chose the latter because demanding irrationality from a fairly rational people is cruel.
Once I have created my independent, rational race, do I have the right to murder them en masse, children included, to suit my own obscure whims? Do I have a divine right to squish intelligent beings when I feel like it? Does it make me merciful or good if I do?
No.
If I really, really wanted to save my miniature basement people I could actually help people by providing food to those who are starving and preventing terrible war and that sort of thing, not arbitrarily mass murdering people.
So my hypothetical take on this is that the God you describe is, basically, immoral and, as I've said before, I want nothing to do with him.
The second part of your statement I quoted talks about God being unable to bear our sins. Barring some long more reasonable explanation, this is God. God has, hypothetically and theoretically, the power to do create the universe; he has the power to bear or elimate pain, emotional or otherwise. After all, we humans go through it rather a lot.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by KarlEd:
quote:Originally posted by BannaOj: I'm highly doubting that with a 9.2, the congregation would actually be far enough away not to be affected, and it would take most of Portland for sure. On the other hand given that they live so close to Mt St Hellens there might be good odds for a 2.9 quake that day...
AJ
There's a thought. Maybe his prophetic dreams were sent by a dislexic god?
Or possibly a dyslexic dog...
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
The problem with your analogy is that God doesn't consider us "miniature basement people", but rather beings with our own will and responsible for our own actions.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Teshi:
quote:But God has a right to kill anyone of us...and cease to bear the agony of enabling our sinful lives to continue any further.
I don't buy into that kind of God. Well, technically, any kind of God, but hypothetically speaking...
If you create a race that is not only deeply flawed by has the capability to reason and think on its own, and you give them rules that are in many ways seemingly (or truly) irrational do you not expect them to question, change and break the rules?
Say I create my own miniature race and I set them loose in a world that I have built in my basement and I give them a somewhat obscure book containing rules like "Gold is an evil Devil-metal because it's soft. Don't use it." Sooner or later some bright spark is going to ask why this should be and he should come to the conclusion that it is completely irrational.
Now I may indeed have some legitimate reason why I gave this law but since I did not communicate my own reasons to my people they do not have all the information. There are two choices for them: some may decide to trust in my words, some may decide the book was written wrong, others will go the scientific rational route and start making their electrical units with gold because it conducts well.
Now, as a decent rational being myself I can't really fault those who chose the latter because demanding irrationality from a fairly rational people is cruel.
Once I have created my independent, rational race, do I have the right to murder them en masse, children included, to suit my own obscure whims? Do I have a divine right to squish intelligent beings when I feel like it? Does it make me merciful or good if I do?
No.
If I really, really wanted to save my miniature basement people I could actually help people by providing food to those who are starving and preventing terrible war and that sort of thing, not arbitrarily mass murdering people.
So my hypothetical take on this is that the God you describe is, basically, immoral and, as I've said before, I want nothing to do with him.
The second part of your statement I quoted talks about God being unable to bear our sins. Barring some long more reasonable explanation, this is God. God has, hypothetically and theoretically, the power to do create the universe; he has the power to bear or elimate pain, emotional or otherwise. After all, we humans go through it rather a lot.
there are eleventy billion flaws in your extended metaphor. Your first being that the ability to choose between good and evil is a "flaw."
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Teshi: Say I create my own miniature race and I set them loose in a world that I have built in my basement and I give them a somewhat obscure book containing rules like "Gold is an evil Devil-metal because it's soft. Don't use it." Sooner or later some bright spark is going to ask why this should be and he should come to the conclusion that it is completely irrational.
Now I may indeed have some legitimate reason why I gave this law but since I did not communicate my own reasons to my people they do not have all the information. There are two choices for them: some may decide to trust in my words, some may decide the book was written wrong, others will go the scientific rational route and start making their electrical units with gold because it conducts well.
Suppose you gave a bunch of really useful and civilized rules, but included some as well which didn't have obvious benefits, like the one against gold. And suppose you'd established to the satisfaction of every single one of the basement folk that you'd actually created them, so that they'd accepted that the one about gold must certainly have a reason, even if they weren't privy to it.
And then suppose a few generations later, you decided that being around all the time was really screwing with the ability of your basement folks to fulfill themselves, so you decided to take off and leave them to their own devices for a while. And during this vacation, some basement people who hadn't been born back when you'd proven yourself to their ancestors started demanding proof?
What would you do? Would you say, "Gosh, they're demanding proof. I should let that override my judgement that they need me to be gone right now and schedule a special engagement at the Basement Auditorium. Never mind the damage that'll do, and never mind the fact that many of them are actually managing just fine without me showing up."
You get the point.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
What damage would it do that would be worse than not showing up? That's an important unfilled blank.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
Then it comes down to faith. If G-d is truly all knowing, then He must know it will all work out.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Hm. This could get very complicated. I realise I came on a big strong with my extended metaphor, so if it really offends or pains you, you should probably take it with a salt mine or two.
quote:The problem with your analogy is that God doesn't consider us "miniature basement people", but rather beings with our own will and responsible for our own actions.
Well, I consider my hypothetical miniature basement people having their own will and responsible for their own actions, too. The fact that they're small and live in my basement was just a fun detail. 'Cause I always wanted either to be small or small people to exist.
quote:Your first being that the ability to choose between good and evil is a "flaw."
Hm. Well, I think this is a matter of semantics. While I consider the ability to chose between right and wrong to be a major part of being human I think that the ability to chose evil and carry through with the choice and not feel all that bad about it could be considered a flaw. However, we can modify the sentence if you wish. The "flawed" comment is kind of irrelevent.
quote:If you create a race that has the capability to reason
In fact, you could lose that whole phrase and it wouldn't matter.
quote:some basement people who hadn't been born back when you'd proven yourself to their ancestors started demanding proof?
I don't demand proof. That's not part of my metaphor. But I can see what you mean. The laws that I laid down to my basement people still apply but, because of their apparant irrationality people have ceased to follow them. This is a form of demanding proof. However, because of my pledge to leave them to their own devices, I cannot do anything about it except, in this scenario, helplessly watch them continue to doom themselves.
First of all, coming back to the prediction (which is the whole point of this hypothetical situation), this doesn't apply because the God of the prediction clearly doesn't mind a bit of direct involvement in the Basement Auditorium.
Secondly, this is kind of moving away from my argument that humans (and basement people who are exactly like humans only much, much smaller) are independent, rational, reasoning, scientific beings who find it difficult to suspend belief on rules that apparantly have no moral value. If this is the case I should expect that without my interference my basement people to come up with their own rules about morality and truth and the use of gold based on what they can measure rather than what they can't.
My argument here is that if I become angry and punish them for being rational I am not being merciful, good or, especially, just.
My secondary argument comes from the point of view of the basement people: "If gold is so bad, why are there no direct consequences for our actions?" "Why, when we use gold do people not die?" "Why is uranium, which is far more apparantly dangerous, not banned instead?" The justified question I would hear from my basement people would be "So what is so bad about gold?"
Going one step further, who's to say that my bias against gold isn't just that; a bias.
If my miniature basement people disagree with me, am I more justified than them to impose my views simply because I created them? Am I always right or are some of the rules I originally imposed wrong or no longer applicable? If my house is unaffected by what my basement people do why should my world's laws (say gold is poisonous to me but only on large scales totally impossible to gather by the basement people) apply to them if they do not have bad repercussions on the basement people themselves?
Anyway, I'm getting off topic.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Morbo: Taken together, it's too unlikely for any rational person [except KoM, he gets a waiver]
He doesn't need one.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
What makes you think that God is punishing anyone?
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
Well, God does promise punishments in the Bible for various things. Some fairly harsh ones, too.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
I was asking Teshi, for whom I don't think the Bible would be a reliable source.
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
It's incredible how much we homos are capable. Not only (according to WBC) did we cause a major war with Iraq, Hurrican Katrina, and Sweden (yes, we caused Sweden), we're causing a flood too now. All is meant as punishment, sure, but if we so pleased, we could be pretty could contortionists.
"To the President and Congress of the United States:
Abdicate your positions and provide to put gays in as the new rulers of America. If you do not comply with our requests, we will have a gay pride parade in Washington, D.C.
Signed, The Gay Mafia"
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:What makes you think that God is punishing anyone?
This whole hypothetical argument of mine in this thread is based solely on the world as presented by the Oregon Pastor.
quote:I was asking Teshi, for whom I don't think the Bible would be a reliable source.
Within these parametres, the Bible is not only reliable, it is a major source of information, law and justice... Assuming the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God is real and he approximates our general idea of him, the various Books associated with these religions are generally all somewhat true. In which case, in the past at least, God has dealt out punishments for violations of various rules, laws, and basic ideas.
[On a regular basis, though, you are correct. I do not consider the Bible (or the other Books) to be a valid source of law or morality except where it (they) does (do) not contradict my own present ideas. There are certain constants that the Bible has the right idea about, such as about murder.
I would treat a book of law like the Bible no more heavily than any other ancient law text. Certain things are still applicable, other things are not.]
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
As long as you don't mistake the Oregon Pastor's view as representative, knock yourself out. Although I am not sure why; he seems to be a bit of a nutter. Tilting at strawmen perhaps?
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Oh, I'm perfectly aware that the Oregon Pastor is a bit of 'nutter' as you say, and completely non-representative. As I noted much earlier in the discussion, I think too much. I'm reacting to what people say.
And I'm not tilting at strawmen (isn't that a bit of a mixed metaphor?) because that implies I would otherwise be tilting at more reasonable religion, which I don't do, at least very often.
Again, given a wacky situation, I just like to think it all the way through. And sometimes I go further than I should.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
No problem then. Just so we remember that Christians tend to think this kind of thing is wacky, too.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Oh I know. Don't worry, we're all good.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
Teshi, God created the human race perfect and flawless. Their freedom of choice was not a flaw, but a power, so their love could be real.
God did not forbid anything to Adam and Eve in all the universe, except for one simple, piddling little thing--don't eat the fruit of one tree in the Garden. It was a test of obedience that revealed their choice to trust God or to doubt God.
In Acts 17:28, the Apostle Paul declared of God: "...in him we live, and move, and have our being...."
Thus every breath we breath, is enabled by Him. Everything thought we think, every deed we perform, is enabled by the power of His Spirit within us sustaining us. Thus He knows from the inside out what it was like to be a prison guard at Auschwitz, and to be one of the hapless prisoners cast into the furnace. He must bear every sorrow of the victim, every sinful thought of the cruel despot or criminal, all of which is extraordinary torture to His perfectly pure and holy nature. The Crucifixion of Christ on Calvery is but a finite representation in space and time of the pain that our sins have caused the heart of God, from the very inception of sin. Yet He endures this as long as He can, He puts up with this terrible torment we cause Him, so that we can have an extended probation, and have a chance to be reclaimed and restored.
It is unreasonable for us to expect God to endure this forever. That would be true eternal torment. That is what many of us seem to will for God. But we also saw on Calvary that God must ultimately put sin away from Himself; He refused to embrace it and take it into Himself. He bore it and rejected it, even unto the death of Himself in a sense we cannot fully understand.
Since God did not spare His own Son, when He was "made to be sin for us" (by imputation), then neither can God spare anyone who is determined to hold onto their sins and never let them go.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Joldo: It's incredible how much we homos are capable. Not only (according to WBC) did we cause a major war with Iraq, Hurrican Katrina, and Sweden (yes, we caused Sweden), we're causing a flood too now. All is meant as punishment, sure, but if we so pleased, we could be pretty could contortionists.
"To the President and Congress of the United States:
Abdicate your positions and provide to put gays in as the new rulers of America. If you do not comply with our requests, we will have a gay pride parade in Washington, D.C.
Signed, The Gay Mafia"
Was that on the gay agenda? I think I remember it being right after the item about manicures being in.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Well, tomorrow's the big day. Is everyone ready?
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: No problem then. Just so we remember that Christians tend to think this kind of thing is wacky, too.
How aure are you of this? Pat Robertson hasn't gotten to the point of making exact predictions yet, but he certainly does tend to blame stuff on gays, sins, or what have you. And you can't dismiss him as an isolated nut; millions of people send him money.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: You could argue that the children had no chance at living good meaningful lives as the entire society was steeped in iniquity. It was an act of mercy to end their lives so as to spare them from such a disgustingly wicked upbringing. [/QB]
So you could. You could also argue that bringing an unwanted child into the world is a bad thing, and that it is a mercy to abort it so that it won't know the misery of growing up unloved. Let me know when you intend to make either argument.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:How aure are you of this? Pat Robertson hasn't gotten to the point of making exact predictions yet, but he certainly does tend to blame stuff on gays, sins, or what have you. And you can't dismiss him as an isolated nut; millions of people send him money.
2-3 million out of some 200+ million Christians in America.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Oh, come on. You can't seriously be contending that this is a small number, even in the context of the whole US.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Oh, come on. You can't seriously be contending that 1-1.5% in any way refutes the statement you called into question.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
I agree with Dag, I mean I think you could prove that 1.5 percent of Americans believe that their dog is a space alien from a distant galaxy sent to make peace with humanity... if only you could pose the question favorably to your desired results.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: Oh, come on. You can't seriously be contending that 1-1.5% in any way refutes the statement you called into question.
1% of the population of Christians in America? I think that most certainly does refute the statement. It's not as though they are evenly spread; they are surely a majority in many counties, possibly even states. Order of magnitude, that's comparable to the LDS church; do you think its President (is that the right title?) is an isolated, powerless figure? And where did you get the 2-3 million number, anyway?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:I think that most certainly does refute the statement.
Really. I assume you didn't interpret kmboots's statement "Just so we remember that Christians tend to think this kind of thing is wacky, too" as meaning ALL Christians think it's kind of wacky. After all, her statement would be directly refuted by the mere existence of THIS guy, so it's clear that's not what she meant.
Therefore, demonstrating that a small percentage of American Christians send money to the person you cited as a counterexample because he does something like this wacky guy in no way refutes kmboots's assertion that Christians (i.e., some non-negligible number of Christians) think this is wacky.
quote:do you think its President (is that the right title?) is an isolated, powerless figure?
Irrelevant to the statement you attempted to refute.
quote:And where did you get the 2-3 million number, anyway?
It's what I recollect about 700 club membership. If you have better figures, by all means cite them.
As best I can tell though, you've got nothing.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
As of 2004, the 700 Club's TV show has an estimated daily viewership is 922,000.
So not even a million people watch his show every day. So less than .5% of American Christians watch his show. There are many many more Mormons in America, and you can see just how much power we have here. Yeah, we control everything from Utah to...Eastern Idaho.
edit: Assuming a 25% growth rate for 2005 and 2006, up to 1.5 million people WATCH his show. I can guarantee a much smalled number of people contributing to it.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Well, that makes 2 or 3 million who agree with comrade Robertson sufficiently to get off their arses and join a club. I do not think a factor ten is an unreasonable estimate for the number of people who just agree with him in general terms, but haven't gotten around to joining up. The Nielsen ratings I was able to find, in the region of 15 to 20 million viewers, agrees with this estimate. Then, I also think you are rather overestimating the number of Christians in the US. There is a difference between ticking a census form and going to church.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Boris: So not even a million people watch his show every day.
I think you've got the wrong emphasis there. About one million watch it every day. Over the course of a week, that builds up considerably.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
quote:Originally posted by King of Men:
quote:Originally posted by Boris: So not even a million people watch his show every day.
I think you've got the wrong emphasis there. About one million watch it every day. Over the course of a week, that builds up considerably.
Uhh, so you are assuming that most of the people who watch this show don't watch it...okay, I gotta put it this way...religiously?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Well, that makes 2 or 3 million who agree with comrade Robertson sufficiently to get off their arses and join a club. I do not think a factor ten is an unreasonable estimate for the number of people who just agree with him in general terms, but haven't gotten around to joining up. The Nielsen ratings I was able to find, in the region of 15 to 20 million viewers, agrees with this estimate. Then, I also think you are rather overestimating the number of Christians in the US. There is a difference between ticking a census form and going to church.
You're numbers still don't add up. You're just flat wrong on this, KoM.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:I do not think a factor ten is an unreasonable estimate
Well, obviously other people do find that "estimate" to be a little bit off.
Consider the source, after all. You are hardly unbiased. Posted by MoonRabbit (Member # 3652) on :
Here's my prediction:
No earthquake, no striking dead the legions of Oregon fornicators, no wailing and gnashing of teeth. And when it doesn't happen, this moron will find a way to either:
1. Change his story, moving the date back (ala Hal Linsdey, et. al.) but claiming it will still happen, or
2. Claim that something did happen, but that people misread his prediction. Maybe, in hindsight, his vision referred to an earthquake in Southeast Asia, a volcano in the South Pacific, or whatever natural disaster happens to occur tomorrow. If there's no natural disasters, maybe it refers to a shooting somewhere or a bus accident. He'll find a way to profit from it.
Heck, it worked for Joseph Smith. When the first copy of his divinely inspired text was stolen, he rewrote it then claimed that the original, when it resurfaced, had been supernaturally altered and the copy was the real, inspired one.
Oh, and here's my other prediction. Feel free to write it down and remember it:
The Rapture won't happen in your lifetime. So when you're old and dying, remember that.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
quote:Originally posted by MoonRabbit: Heck, it worked for Joseph Smith. When the first copy of his divinely inspired text was stolen, he rewrote it then claimed that the original, when it resurfaced, had been supernaturally altered and the copy was the real, inspired one.
You're woefully un-informed on this one on two points (and just plain wrong on every other point that you could possibly imagine here)...
1. The original never re-surfaced. 2. The section of the manuscript that was lost was a completely different section of the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith didn't start over from the begining. The section that was lost was never re-translated.
Really, if you're going to bash on a historical figure, get your facts straight before doing it. And you really should stop reading those books on Mormons. Most of them are pretty stupid.
Nice try though, and thank you for your obvious lack of real research capabilities.
[ June 18, 2006, 02:04 AM: Message edited by: Boris ]
Posted by MidnightBlue (Member # 6146) on :
Anything happen yet?
Posted by peterh (Member # 5208) on :
How 'bout now?
Goes to check USGS site...
Nope nothing here .
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
Obviously, God has decided to spare us his wrath.
Or maybe the Pride parade just hasn't reached Main Street yet. After all, Oregon is a few hours behind.
Posted by Evie3217 (Member # 5426) on :
Yeah, *looksaround for an earthquake* I don't see nothin'.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
The Pride Parade in our area was a peaceful, happy "coming together" of community members of all walks of life, ages, genders, careers, families, and yes, orientations -- including the local Episcopal church and mission center that distributed blessings free for all.
What was most poignant were the people that have been "cast out" by certain faiths because of their orientation, and then the release of tension and gentling as they received their blessing from Fr. David and other church members.
Blessings that said very clearly we are all children of God, that God rejoices the day we are born, and continues to rejoice. That called for God's continuing love to fill all our hearts with love, and spread that love out into the community.
It was truly a beautiful thing.
Nothing bad's happened . . . and a lot of good.
Hmmm.
Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
MoonRabbit, it's usually not a good idea to use South Park as your sole source of information about a religion or ethnic group.
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
quote:Originally posted by Evie3217: Yeah, *looksaround for an earthquake* I don't see nothin'.
Yes, Caesar, but the Ides of March is not yet ended.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
You know, if God really wanted to punish a city or a country for sins, wouldn't it be more likely he'd focus on some of the sins he talked about a bit more? I mean, sure it seems he said homosexuality was wrong, but he had a lot more to say about greed, lack of compassion, and other things like "Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness Against Thy Neighbor."
Has anyone seen a political commercial where there was a lack of false witness being born against their neighbors?
And this comes from many people who are proud to describe their deep and abiding Christianity.
Put a bunch of them in one city, say Washington DC, and you have a much greater center of Sin than Oregon's Gay Pride Parade.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
So... does anyone think we'll be hearing from Ron after Pastor Cassandra turns out to have been just a little crazy? Or will he softly and silently fade away...
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I think we will. Ron's no shrinking violet.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:Pastor Cassandra
Cassandra had true visions but was cursed so no one would believe her. Unless it happens (actually, even if it happens- considering he's got a following), this pastor is no Cassandra.
quote:Pastor Cassandra turns out to have been just a little crazy
Also, having a disaster not happen is not that big a blow. The Oregon Pastor can just say something along the lines of 'enough people prayed that it didn't happen, thank God.' Who's to say the dreams weren't actually real and God just changed His mind for some reason?
It's more complicated than true/false.
Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
On the homepage where they guy made the prediction it also says " If this doesn't happen, then it was a good drill in case of an emergency."
Well, I guess that's his backup plan Posted by Sharpie (Member # 482) on :
You know, I have a hard time seeing this guy as someone to be reviled or ridiculed. He doesn't seem to be trying to get anything out of this. He seems to genuinely feel led to warn people.
I'm NOT a person of faith, but I find myself admiring his courage. I don't believe his dreams are true, but he doesn't seem to be demanding that I do. So I guess I think he's wrong ... but brave.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
Sharpie, you're ruining the fun, go home.
Posted by Sharpie (Member # 482) on :
I do try.
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
Right now they're doing their sinful homsexual conga. Which means they'll all be underwater within twenty minutes.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Ron's been a member since 2001, Lisa, although he doesn't post frequently, and he's hardly been advocating for this guy. Just said he thought people should know about it. Why in the world would you think it not happening would hurt his crediblity?
Posted by Boothby171 (Member # 807) on :
OK, so it's 12:09 am on the East Coast. Any 9.2 earthquakes yet? Any tsunamis on the West Coast? Did I miss it?
--Steve
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
CONGA!
Posted by Mazer (Member # 192) on :
'bout 15 minutes left before it is 19 June.
Posted by Mr.Funny (Member # 4467) on :
OH MY GOSH THE EARTH IS SHAKING HE'S RIGHT WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!!!!!
Oh. Wait. Never mind. That was my stomach rumbling.
Carry on with your business.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Is he going to become a hermit now, to live out his shame in solitude?
Obviously he's not fit to preach any more, since the god he thinks he's listening to lies to him.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
I had a dream last night.
In it God turned his hand away from Oregon, saying to all, "Hey, you know what. That parade wasn't too bad after all."
Instead God set his sites on Washington DC, where on October 12th, 2006, a magnitude 4 hurricane will sweep in, devastating the city, and cause a 8.2 magnitude Earthquake. In the wreckage will be found these words: "Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness..."
Of all the major buildings of the city, only the Washington Monument will remain standing, since after all, that guy never told a lie.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I actually feel a little sorry for the guy. I had a few dreams when I was younger that, had I not dismissed them, could easily have been interpreted as God speaking to me. And had I believed more strongly in His existence, and had I been a clergyman theoretically supposed to be "righteous" enough to hear His message, I'd've probably felt compelled to share them with people.
I wonder if he will now revisit some of his earlier assumptions, or if he'll just write this one off as a crossed signal.
Posted by Lissande (Member # 350) on :
quote:MoonRabbit, it's usually not a good idea to use South Park as your sole source of information about a religion or ethnic group.
Dog, will you be on my team?
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_raven: Of all the major buildings of the city, only the Washington Monument will remain standing, since after all, that guy never told a lie.
No, no, even that will fall. All that will remain will be one... lone... cherry tree.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
Ok, I owe Tom $1. Can I throw it in a charity box somewhere?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
It depends. Could I have donated your $50 to charity?
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
Well I'd like to think I would have had you donate it to the earthquake relief, but its your call.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
*laugh* Go ahead. But I want to see a scan of the receipt. Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
I think it should go to a "Gay Rights" organization.
Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
quote:Dog, will you be on my team?
The sad thing is, I don't think I'll ever get to hear MoonRabbit respond. That's the sad part about discussing things in an anonymous, invisible forum. People can just come in and say dumb, insulting things, then fade away without accounting for themselves.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
And lo, my vision has been sharpened.
Star Lisa was right when she said the great phallic symbol of honesty shall not long survive the cities destruction. It shall teeter, and it shall fall, and it shall land upon the greatest barer of false withness of them all. Like the finger of God it shall point out, and smoosh like a cockroach, the fiend who for pride and profit, would profane Gods truth of creation with thier own limited lies. Only the worst of the offenders, the crown prince of spin, the lord of the lies, shall be so eviscerated.
So I beseech all of thee, after the destruction of DC, gather those surviving politicians and pundits, the lawyers and lobbyists, the agents and actors, Shock Jock's and Televangelists, even the fiction writers who claim to seek truth, but usually just seek a living, putting lies on paper. March them under the teetering monument so that God can show us the worst of a bad lot. We shall know this grad vizier of lies but the simple sign that the Washington Monument shall land upon them.
Subtlety is for sinners.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Does anyone know if Pastor Day has written or spoken about this? The website is still saying that the cataclysm is coming. I'd be very interested to know how he's handling it.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Yeah, I've been checking to see if there was an update too. I would love to hear what he thinks of the dream in light of what didn't happen.
Posted by MoonRabbit (Member # 3652) on :
quote:MoonRabbit, it's usually not a good idea to use South Park as your sole source of information about a religion or ethnic group.
Actually, Mormonism is one of the few religions (along with scientology) that was invented after the advent of the printing press and newspapers. There is a complete secular historic record of Joseph Smith's entire life and the development of Mormonism as a religion. My source is The Golden Bible by M.T. Lamb, published in 1887. In addition to the "sacred" texts, there are also compilations of J. S.'s other writings and many biographies that don't jibe with the church's official version of events. South Park? That's pretty lame, even for a straw man argument.
quote:you really should stop reading those books on Mormons. Most of them are pretty stupid.
Wow. Just wow. I guess I should stop reading books on Native American archaeology, too, because the evidence doesn't support the Book of Mormon.
I have to concede one point, though. You're right about the stolen pages never being found. It's been almost 30 years since I read the book, so it's amazing I remember it at all. It wasn't that the pages were found, it was that J.S. was afraid they would be found, so he was "divinely" directed that the first version was incomplete, or a condensed version, or something like that. Don't believe me? Good. Look it up yourself.
I didn't intend to start a flamewar. I guess this isn't the place to say anything that could be construed as a challenge to anyone's cherished beliefs.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
MR, While I agree that Dog's remarks were out of line, you didn't present yourself very well either. If you're going to make attacks on a religion on a forum that has a large population of people of that religion, you should expect to be held to a much higher standard of evidence for your claims than you provided.
Also, while I think you could argue that your statements were concerning facts, there is a explicit rule on Hatrack that attacking others' religious beliefs is not permissible. I don't think you completely crossed the line and you can totally present the accounts from your sources without fearing censure, but your tone seemed pretty hostile to me.
And that's from someone who, in as much as he cares about LDS, is pretty sympathetic to your position.
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
[in the interest of clarity, this is A Rat Named Dog under an alias]
Sorry I got a bit frustrated there, MoonRabbit. But really, while I understand that to people who haven't experienced my faith the way I have, the things I believe are easy to doubt, at the same time, mere cynicism about the motives of a religious leader you disagree with isn't solid enough ground from which to bash someone's religion.
Obviously you don't find our background convincing. If you did, you'd probably be a Mormon. So, with that established, I think we can probably leave the mocking comments aside as a pursuit that wastes everyone's time and reflects rather poorly on you.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I am not a Mormon and I was a little offended by your tone, MR.
Check yourself, THEN worry about others.
Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
I had to work ten hours yesterday, so this is the first chance I have had to come on line after the 18th.
Since the predicted earthquake and flood did not occur, I looked for some kind of comment on Pastor Day's church's website, but did not see any. I have sent an e-mail to pastor Day to ask him if he has a comment he would like to share.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
See, Lisa, I knew he'd come back. Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
They always come back . . .
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
Angsty conga . . .
Posted by ReikoDemosthenes (Member # 6218) on :
I'm kind of expecting a reply mentioning Jonah, which could actually be a valid reference. Not being him, I honestly can't say. Although this whole thing really does strike me as a tad ridiculous.
Posted by Jeesh (Member # 9163) on :
The Eathquake never happened, did it?
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Not this year.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by A Rat Named Dog:
quote:Dog, will you be on my team?
The sad thing is, I don't think I'll ever get to hear MoonRabbit respond. That's the sad part about discussing things in an anonymous, invisible forum. People can just come in and say dumb, insulting things, then fade away without accounting for themselves.
STUPIDFACE!!!!!!!!
:::Runs away laughing Maniacally:::
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: I wonder if he will now revisit some of his earlier assumptions, or if he'll just write this one off as a crossed signal.
I think that we can assume that since man was supposed to have been molded in God's image, and man strives, according to Plato, to become as Godlike as possible, then perhaps God was simply experiencing a mild case of Cellular Dropout, to update the "crossed signal" analogy. He ought to get a better plan, he really must be wasting his minutes if he's spending his time on the phone with Pat Robertson. Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
*bump* as a sort of counter point to the recent Pat Robertson "prophecy"
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
I was interested that the earthquake prophecy seems to have disappeared from the website linked to in the original post. I wonder how that turned out for the congregation. At least the pastor there had the guts to make a specific prediction -- time, place, and event. Making a vague guess as to what might happen in the next year isn't really that impressive. We all could make a guess like that given what we know, though I think a major terrorist attack (thousands dead) won't happen anyway, at least not in the U.S. Here's my "prophecy": there will be a small-scale terrorist attack (less than 100 dead) and Robertson will claim this is the fulfillment of his prophecy.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
Simple, the priest and his congregation prayed and begged God not to allow the earthquake to occur, and their prayers were answered.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shigosei: I was interested that the earthquake prophecy seems to have disappeared from the website linked to in the original post. I wonder how that turned out for the congregation. At least the pastor there had the guts to make a specific prediction -- time, place, and event.
Agreed. While there are a lot of things you can say about this guy, he definitely didn't come across as attention seeking the way a lot of these people spouting prophesies do. He said what he had to say, and then let it drop. I don't care much for prophesy, but I do like it when people are honest about it.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
quote:At least the pastor there had the guts to make a specific prediction -- time, place, and event. Making a vague guess as to what might happen in the next year isn't really that impressive.
Maybe not "impressive" to you, but it's a time-honored tradition. Remember Jesus's "no man knoweth the hour" caveat? That little tidbit has kept the bulk of Christianity in a "last days" mindset for nearly 2000 years. I find that very impressive, if not also more than a little pernicious. Posted by Ron Lambert (Member # 2872) on :
KarlEd, Jesus did not only say that no man knows the day and hour of His coming, He also said that we can have a general idea of when it is due, and likened it to the signs we commonly recognize as harbingers of spring or summer. So He was implying we should be able to know when the season (or general time) for His coming is near.
Posted by Lisa (Member # 8384) on :
End of Days.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Ron, what I recall - and I know that you will be more familiar with the verses - the signs He mentions are not all that specific. War, famine, persecution. He also mentions the destruction of the Temple but that happened and we are still here.
I think that "no man knowest the hour" tells us that, instead of focus on trying to guess when, we should always be living the kind of life we would want to be leading.
edit to add: Also it should be remembered that eschatology was part of the culture of the time. It has been, from time to time, a part of many different culture and religions.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: KarlEd, Jesus did not only say that no man knows the day and hour of His coming, He also said that we can have a general idea of when it is due, and likened it to the signs we commonly recognize as harbingers of spring or summer. So He was implying we should be able to know when the season (or general time) for His coming is near.
Yes, I'm aware of this. I also know that there have been learned men of every age since then who have expected it within their own generation or the next (or maybe the next, but "soon" at any rate).
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