I heard about that. Somehow, some way, his secret will be hidden again one day.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
C'mon, spoiler warning!
geeze . . . Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
This could actually be an interesting story if it were not being written by Mark Millar...who ever since he started believing his own good press has been churning out stories that invariably disappoint me.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Um... Does this remind anyone else of The Incredibles, but in reverse?
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
So, isn't this like an expanded Mutant Registration plot? Didn't the X-Men go through this about umpteen million times... and didn't such classification lead to, you know, Sentinels and Genosha and all manner of Bad Things(tm)?
Could Charles Xavier go to Peter Parker and say "Hey, dude, this isn't the best idea, you know. Just sayin'"
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I think that's kind of the whole point of Civil War, Flying Cow.
Spidey apparently disagrees, though on what grounds I can't imagine.
I always found the personal lives of the heroes much more interesting than their costumed adventures. So, for me, this revelation is kind of a step backwards-- private/public life is no more.
I don't follow comics much any longer-- but this seemed like a pretty big development, and I thought I'd link to it to see what everyone else thought.
Oh, by the way-- the mutant registration act didn't lead to any of those things. The Sentinels were already around before the act was signed; and Genosha wasn't a part of the Act (which was, as far as we know, US based).
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
As someone's who's actually reading the current Civil War storyline, I've got to admit that it's been done fairly well -- to my surprise -- so far.
The "reveal" here is well-telegraphed and explained in the text. And I can't imagine how they'd magically "undo" all these changes.
Tony Stark's come out already, in a way that'll make it much harder for him to say "Sorry, I lied about that" in the future. Parker's about to reveal himself on the advice of his Aunt May(although I guarantee that he'll be fighting on the other side before the mini-series is over, probably due to some betrayal from Stark). And so on.
In a way, this is just an informal admission that secret identities really don't make much sense. Already, a vast majority of the superheroes in the "community" know each other's secret identities; Peter Parker's attempt to protect his identity has even become a running joke among other superheroes, who've known it for years.
But of course that's also part of the tension of the character. So I can't quite figure out whether Civil War intends to roll back these changes and return to a status quo, or what. Reed Richards already shot the Hulk into space. Peter Parker's about to never be able to take pictures for the Bugle ever again. And of course Daredevil's in jail and Foggy Nelson is dead.
So all I can figure is that they're going to make these changes permanent OR, in a stunning cop-out, drag out Wanda Maximoff to "House of M" the whole thing away, thus wrapping up THAT storyline as well.
----
BTW, what's Venom doing on the cover? He already knows Spider-Man's real identity. Unlike the Hobgoblin and Bullseye, he'd have no real motivation to go after him afresh. Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
Have there been any long run permanent and HUGE changes for the core group of superheroes?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
There have been huge changes. But I don't know how permanent ANYTHING is in comics.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I've always admired Spiderman because he's one of the truly Regular Guy (mostly) heroes. All these other folks, Richards, Stark, Captain America, the X-men, the Avengers-- they all live for the job of being a hero.
Not Spidey. Spidey doesn't have a secret mansion to run to. He lives in an apartment. No exorbitant equipment (airplanes, motorcycles); his mode of travel is cheap and fairly limited of range.
Although, if Tom recommends it... I might have to check it out when it comes out in graphic novel form.
Posted by Puffy Treat (Member # 7210) on :
Humans with super powers don't make any sense.
Neither do codenames, costumes, or the world matching up to ours after so many years of this weird stuff happening.
So the big message is that the Marvel universe is a fantastical Rube Goldberg device that doesn't really work?
Dur-hey. That's why it's called "escapism", Millar.
Trying to force characters created in the Silver Age into stories that appeal to jaded, cynical, burnt out fans in their 30s-40s is becoming increasingly silly.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Can somebody give me a running list of villains/people who already knew the identity of spiderman? Pretty sure the green goblin already knew, as did Venom, Mary Jane obviously, and Aunt May. Can the comic book geeks give me a comprehensive list as I think it would play down some of the SHOCK of this revelation.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Spidey doesn't have a secret mansion to run to. He lives in an apartment.
I think that's actually one of the things this arc is meant to resolve. Since his house burnt down and M.J. ran up some debts, he's actually been living in the Stark Building -- the new Avengers hangout -- and working as Stark's personal assistant. Aunt May is actually dating Jarvis.
I expect that will change fairly soon.
--------
quote: Can somebody give me a running list of villains/people who already knew the identity of spiderman?
Off the top of my head:
Friends: Mary Jane Aunt May Jarvis Harry Osborn (d.) Black Cat Reed Richards Nightwatch (d.) Prowler (d.) Daredevil Wolverine Iron Man Captain America Spider-Woman Luke Cage Professor X Jean Grey Cyclops Nick Fury S.H.I.E.L.D (ID on file)
Villains: Green Goblin Dr. Octopus Venom The Owl The Jackal Gwen Stacy's clone (d.?) Gaunt (d.) Kaine (d.?) Judas Traveller Chameleon (d.?)
People who might know and who seemed in some issues to know but...: Rhino Electro Vulture John Jameson, Jr. Robbie
[ June 15, 2006, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
What's changing? May dating Jarvis? Parker's work?
I really, really, REALLY enjoyed the reveal to Aunt May, and the SPOILER . . . . . . . . . . twist that all this time, May had thought it was her fault that Uncle Ben was killed.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Could Charles Xavier go to Peter Parker and say "Hey, dude, this isn't the best idea, you know. Just sayin'"
Xavier (and the entire school) was unmasked unwillingly, and they all decided it was better after the unmasking.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Trying to force characters created in the Silver Age into stories that appeal to jaded, cynical, burnt out fans in their 30s-40s is becoming increasingly silly.
Only when done poorly. So far I'm liking the Civil War series. It's hands down better than the last couple of DC mega-events, although it may not be enough to redeem Marvel for the M mess.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Nate Grey (X-Man) also knew Peter's identity. He's dead now too though.
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by Stephan: Have there been any long run permanent and HUGE changes for the core group of superheroes?
Sure. They'll never bring back Bucky or Jason Todd.
<ducking>
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:Sure. They'll never bring back Bucky or Jason Todd.
I didn't know about the latest bringing back of Bucky. Peter David did sort of brought him back and killed him again on his Incredible Hulk run. Looks like that was ignored for this latest bringing back from the dead.
One character that, so far, has permanently dead is Captain Marvel (Mar-Vell).. He has had two sons though who were revealed post posthumously.
One genetically (sort of cloned) named Genis-Vell. I guess he died recently. The other was made the old fashion way with a Skrull princess named Anelle (currently referred to as "Hulkling" in Young Avengers, but that will certainly change now that his origin is revealed). He has both Skrull shape-shifting powers and the super strength of his father.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I'm wondering if they'll keep Banshee dead now that his daughter's commented on how unlikely it is. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Hm. Just read Civil War 2. Millar's being WAAAAY too transparent about his biases, here.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I just read Civil War #1 and #2.
I don't know, Tom, I feel pretty torn myself over which side is in the right.
On one hand, my current favorite heroes (The Young Avengers) are on Captain America's side, but to be honest I sort of side with Iron Man.
If I lived in their world, I would be against thousands of super powered vigilantes running around with no regulation, training, or civil authority.
Especially considering that half the time, when these "heroes" meet, they fight eachother in the classic "hero fights hero" battle because of a misunderstanding. Endangering thousands of lives, and destroying millions of dollars worth of property.
I can't say for sure that I would be on Captain America's side.
I was going to resist buying the "event", but the fact that the Young Avengers are getting so much screen time sucked me in.
But consider Young Avengers if the law does pass. The team wouldn't be able to operate right now, but they could spend the next year until they are 18 training under professional super heroes, most likely turned into a much more cohesive and powerful team, and then they would be authorized as a legitimate force to still do what they are doing now. Not good for a comic book, but if it was "real life", it would be much better for them.
Oh and I was thrilled to see Speedfreek. He was my favorite Peter David Hulk villian. Too bad he didn't have his suit on. He could have killed each New Warrior all by himself if he had a chance to get prepared. Hypersonic speed, adamantium blades, sophisticated armor, and no morals of any sort would have left each New Warrior beheaded before they even had a chance to move.
[ June 15, 2006, 10:49 PM: Message edited by: Xavier ]
Posted by erosomniac (Member # 6834) on :
Man, it sounds like comics are so much cooler now than they were when I stopped reading (~10 years ago). Too bad there's no easy way to get caught up. Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Sure there is. Pick the comics you're interested in and look 'em up at Wikipedia. Most of the heroes I could think have fairly complete listings, including what's happened to them (in a general way) up to the present time.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Yeah, I stopped collecting for several years (like eight years) and started up again recently.
The hardest part, I've found, is that to maintain my interest I need one or two "anchor" books to collect, and I haven't quite gotten there yet.
I first came back because Peter David was back on the Hulk. I'd collected his run on that book for years and years, so I was excited at his return. The run was short and largely unimpressive, but I still wanted to get back into comics.
I bought Marvel pretty much exclusively, so that's what I mostly tried.
The problem with Marvel is that something like 85% of the books are X-men/Wolverine/Spiderman related in some way or another. Spiderman and Wolverine are even on the same team now (as far as I know). I can't stand following a character who is starring in multiple books, so that makes most every marvel book unreadable for me.
Out of what that left me with and which I sampled, the only one which I truly enjoyed was the Young Avengers.
I didn't find much else that I liked, so I tried some DC for the first time ever.
I really like Green Lantern's powers, so I checked out that book when they were doing the Rebirth storyline. I quite liked the art, and the story was pretty decent too (though I don't really know much about the continuity it referenced).
That miniseries led into the launching of two books, neither of which was able to maintain my interest, unfortunately.
I also tried getting into the Teen Titans. The art was very strong on that title. However, the two characters I liked best from the book were Superboy and Raven, who are apparently no longer on the team after whatever happened in the Infinity Crisis event. I'm not a big fan of the batman family, so it was tough reading a book with Robin as the star. So now the only character left on the team which I like is Wondergirl (Cassandra), and I barely know anything about her. So I dropped that book from my buying list. Sad, to drop a book with art I adore.
Eventually I bought some back-issues of the New Excalibur, because I liked the art and I thought the idea of Juggernaut as a hero was interesting. So far I like what I've seen, but I admit, if they switched to an artist less my taste I would probably drop it.
I really like a clean, fairly realistic looking style to my art. I really hate unclean lines, odd proportions, or any sort of fuzziness or lack of focus. It appears that a lot of artists on comics these days are getting too abstract for my tastes, in an attempt to make them highly stylized.
I loved the art in Civil War, by the way. That's a good example of my preferred style.
I'm pretty picky about both the art and the writing/characters, so I've found it difficult to get back into comics. What's worse is that my current favorite, the Young Avengers, are going to be taking a long break from what I've heard. So I'll be down to one book I am only partly into. I miss the mid 90's where I always knew that Peter David would be on the Hulk, and that Dale Keown or Gary Frank would be the artist.
After all that rambling, anyone have any super hero (or even non-super-hero books) to suggest?
Posted by Mazer (Member # 192) on :
I am so utterly uninterested in comics for the most part, but I am buying Civil War titles like candy.
I heard about Civil War on NPR of all places, the day before it came out. So far I am enjoying it, artwork and writing. Too bad OSC isn't writing anything for it, I enjoyed his Ultimate Ironman.
quote: Daredevil's in jail
I could have sworn Civil War 2 showed him out. Maybe he was part of Cap's prison break.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I'm reading some of it, and I totally buy PP's outing himself on the grounds of uncontrolled superhumans running amok and loyalty to Tony Stark and guilt-by-association...but on the other hand, I don't buy it because he's been doing good, at great personal sacrifice and injury, virtually without thanks from the very community which now demands he out himself. And unlike Tony Stark, he isn't super rich and doesn't have a home full of servants to cater to his whims.
Life as a superhero, when compared to life as a super-powered ordinary human being, has been a major loss situation. But that's part and parcel for PP, since it ties into his guilt complex. As Nick Fury termed it in Secret Wars (the new one), "Peter Parker: Suffers from a massive guilt complex which basically means he does whatever you tell him he has to do," in slightly different words.
It will be very interesting to see how he reacts once he discovers Stark's betrayl, both generally and personally.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Matt Murdock is in jail. There's another, as yet unindentified person running around in a DD costume fighting crime in Hell's Kitchen.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I don't know, Tom, I feel pretty torn myself over which side is in the right.
I do, too, Xavier. In fact, I think the pro-registration argument is the BETTER of the two arguments. Which is why the bias is so transparent to me.
Have you noticed that we have YET to see the pro-registration argument made sensibly and intelligently by a reasonable person? The best arguments I've seen for it have been in the Spider-Man and She-Hulk comics, which aren't even part of the core storyline; if you aren't reading those, you've yet to see a reason to sympathize with that viewpoint. Stark made his case haughtily, as part of a group who fired Bruce Banner into space -- and scenes in other comics suggest that he's hiding things. We know Richards is ignoring his wife and brother-in-law, and hiding the construction of an enormous prison from them; his "rationale" for being pro-registration is based on math-heavy "gobbledygook" that Susan, as the reader-analogue, is clearly not meant to understand. And in the second issue, we see that escorting guard -- the one who's pushed by Captain America into oncoming traffic -- turned into an ignorant, bigoted caricature as he attempts to explain why masks are unnecessary (and even creepy) on superheroes. Heck, the new Thunderbolts title has them signing on as creepy mercenary jailers -- and even gives them a built-in betrayal, right off the bat, to make it clear that we're not supposed to sympathize with them.
But in the Marvel Universe, masks ARE unnecessary and creepy on superheroes. More importantly, why aren't the "rebels" already beginning to question what they're doing? Captain America could easily have killed that guard, or the driver of the police car that flipped to avoid him. He's already calling this the "resistance" -- implying what, that he's intending to actually overthrow the American government?
This could be a LOT more complex than it is, and we're not seeing it. Those of us who're pro-registration have to bring our own rationales to the table.
--------
Chris, I'm not sure that the Daredevil we see in the Civil War issues isn't Murdock. We don't really have a timeframe for when the current Daredevil storyline is occurring relative to Civil War. That said, if it IS Murdock, and this is occurring after he is presumably released innocent from prison, he more than most has a really good motive for being anti-registration. *grin*
Posted by Palliard (Member # 8109) on :
I dunno. In real reality, good guys don't wear masks. In superhero reality, everyone important wears a mask, good guy or not.
I haven't read "Civil War", but from what I'm hearing it sounds like the Marvel version of "Watchmen", with Stark taking on the role of Ozymandias, and Cap taking on the role of Rorschack.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
It's actually closer to Kingdom Come, even down to the big prison. Except that the anti-registration crowd in Kingdom Come weren't depicted as heroes, but turned out to be right anyway. I expect the opposite might happen here.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:Chris, I'm not sure that the Daredevil we see in the Civil War issues isn't Murdock. We don't really have a timeframe for when the current Daredevil storyline is occurring relative to Civil War.
Yeah, in Young Avengers #11, Patriot looked as though he was toast.
Then come Civil War, he's back in action, apparently more powerful than before. (Perhaps Cap gives him a transfusion? Though he still wouldn't be bulletproof, I suppose.) So Civil War must be considerably into the future compared to Young Avengers. Wouldn't be surprised if its after the current Daredevil continuity as well.
I sort of see what you are saying now Tom, but I think we may have to wait and see. I agree that the super-secret prison thing is a bit of a neon sign saying "This group is the one in the wrong".
Its interesting how Cap is against bringing in super-heroes who don't agree to stop fighting crime, as he and Iron Man pretty much did just that to the Young Avengers. Perhaps Patriot saving his life changed his mind on the subject.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Issue #1: Spidey is clearly admitting his identity out loud for that unnamed common street thug. The "!" and the dialogue border around the text make it clearly an audible declaration. Edit: Added the emoticon so people don't think I am seriously calling the community "fools."
[ June 16, 2006, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: BlackBlade ]
Posted by Mazer (Member # 192) on :
Anyone who is honestly pro-reg scares me. That takes us into Godwin's land.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
I don't really read comics on a regular basis (except for Ultimate Spider-man and Ultimate X-men) but I like to hear about the latest storylines and such. So I read about this civil war story on wikipedia, and based on what I read, the super-human registration act doesn't sound unreasonable:
quote:The provisions of the 2006 version of the Super-human Registration Act have been more specifically outlined. In a June 2006 interview [3] Civil War editor Tom Brevoort confirmed that registrants to the act have to reveal their identities to the government (but not the public) and they have to undergo some basic testing and/or training and satisfy certain (as yet unspecified) standards before they gain legal authoristion to continue to use their abilities to fight crime. Government employment is not mandatory, though it is available to those who wish to take it.
Of course we all know that super-heroes like Spider-man are good guys through and through, and everything they do is to help and protect people. In fact, most heroes would probably turn themselves in if they ever crossed the line. But from the perspective of an average person in-universe, it would be hard to be okay with the idea of masked super-powered individuals who no one has any control over. All the act is asking for is that they give their names to the government and get some formal training/certification, and then they can basically go on as normal. Of course, I realize that it will probably be revealed that the government has some sinister motive behind it, but from an objective standpoint, it seems pretty fair.
I don't understand why Peter revealed his identity to the public though. From what I understand the registration act doesn't require that. It puts himself and everyone he cares about in danger (although a lot of people within the super-hero/villain community already knew who he was).
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Anyone who is honestly pro-reg scares me.
Why? The registration law is for super-powered individuals who are actively using their powers. You don't have to register if you have super-powers; you only have to register if you want to use your super-powers to do something, like fight crime.
And you will be PAID to fight crime, and trained to use your powers, and shielded from some legal liability for damages that result from use of your powers.
As far as I'm concerned, it's a win/win situation for most superheroes, and no more onerous than a driver's license.
What I find a little baffling is that, as proposed, one only needs register with the government; you DON'T need to publicly announce your identity on national television. So far, however, that's been the route taken -- which I suppose is necessary to add any dramatic tension at all, because (for example) S.H.I.E.L.D. already knows who Spider-Man is. If he just "registered" with them, he'd just be drawing a salary for telling something they already knew.
Of course, a legitimate criticism of the registration proposal is that the superheroes would only draw a salary and would only receive liability protection if they were acting in an officially-sanctioned manner, leading to Cap's quite sensible objection regarding whether or not they'd be ordered around like soldiers by the government. But as someone who's used to it, you'd think that he of all people would be able to cope with that one. *laugh*
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:But as someone who's used to it, you'd think that he of all people would be able to cope with that one. *laugh*
Yeah, that's one thing that doesn't sit quite well with me. If there is anyone in the marvel universe who would be in favor of the legislation, its Cap.
I think it would be a much more compelling drama if Cap was the government's representitive, being the "father figure" of pretty much all of Marvel's super-heroes.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
You're telling me that Captain America of all people is against the act?! That seems a bit weird...
Anyway, like I said above, I haven't actually read the series but I've been reading about it, and I thought that the heroes who registered don't have to go on a government pay-roll, and therefore don't have to be treated as soldiers if they don't want to (see the quoted bit of my post, just a couple of posts up). Sure, being a super-hero loses a bit of its coolness factor when you have to get an official license from the government, but the fact that they are being allowed to pursue vigilante activities and hide their identities from the public and it be totally legal and government sanctioned sounds like a pretty sweet deal! I'm still waiting to hear the secret sinister motive behind this that makes the Act evil...
I mean, it's all good if you trust the government and believe that it's all just a simple measure to try and keep super-powered individuals in line and keep the public feeling safe. But it's probably going to turn out to be some plot to control them.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Of course we all know that super-heroes like Spider-man are good guys through and through, and everything they do is to help and protect people. In fact, most heroes would probably turn themselves in if they ever crossed the line. But from the perspective of an average person in-universe, it would be hard to be okay with the idea of masked super-powered individuals
This is explored in Marvels, which I just finished last night. Excellent book, I thought. Thanks to the people here who recommended it.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
You know, one thing that was very irritatinig-and frankly stupid, in my opinion-was Aunt May's assertion that 'cowards hide behind masks'. First of all, it's an incredibly hurtful and inaccurate thing to say to Peter Parker. Second, it's stupid because he took a lot more hell for wearing the mask than he would have without it, I expect. Had he gone the Captain America route, or the FF route, or the Luke Cage route.
Peter let himself be publicly reviled and scorned over and over and over again, with no way to redeem his image. Sure, he often left messes, but how could he pay for it? And what was the alternative, exactly? Let the villainous jackass off a bunch of innocents? Not to mention there was that time when he did try to help for Electro going through that wall. Gave up his month's rent money-and you know what a hassle that was, prior to New Avengers and/or MJ's modeling work-to a couple of kids who's Mom was not very Mom-like and could hardly handle this on her own.
Anyway, just irritating. Just because she's still pissed at him is no reason to suggest he's cowardly.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
So I picked up the first two issues of Civil War yesterday, along with Kingdom Come. Not bad stuff. I'll talk about Kingdom Come in the other thread, but in terms of the Civil War series, what is the timetable for the release of future issues? What Spiderman issues should I take a look at for the pro-registration argument? Just the ones referenced on the last page of the first comic?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
That'd help. Actually, Marvel's doing something rather clever with this mini and, rather than just sticking an ugly little logo on the cover to indicate that a given issue is part of the crossover, actually designing all the covers of the associated issues with a consistent theme.
In general, Marvel wants you to stop into your local comic store every Wednesday. But you won't have to. Posted by Mazer (Member # 192) on :
quote: You don't have to register if you have super-powers; you only have to register if you want to use your super-powers to do something, like fight crime.
Well it is ambiguous about that.
As for why I am bothered by it, same reason that Cap should be bothered by it. It is so fundamentally unAmerican, it is draconic, it is Orwellian, and it is chillingly reminiscent of yellow stars and pink triangles. I am not talking about lucky charms, I am talking about fascism. (There's that subtle skirting of Godwin.) Sure the law is benevolent, NOW, but whose to say where that will lead.
Regulation/restriction has one big flaw. It requires honest people to abide by it. Meaning that for the most part, Supervillians won't feel compelled to abide by the registration. So only the good guys have to toss their privacy in the dustbin?
And anyway, Millar stated on NPR that it was a thinly veiled allegory of modern restrictions placed on Americans. Individual rights have been dealt some serious blows in the last few years, and since Millar is making no attempt whatsoever to hide it, those who are pro-reg would appear, by association, to be anti-freedom, (Until they are the ones who are "Come for" with no one to speak for them.)
Back to the Capt America thing, I think this is also Millars way of putting forward the idea patriotic dissent. That one can love their country without giving blind allegiance to it.
Also, I think it is awesome that one of Marvels most jingoistic heros is the first one to make a stand against it.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:since Millar is making no attempt whatsoever to hide it, those who are pro-reg would appear, by association, to be anti-freedom
Which is the great weakness of the series so far. Because I'm pro-reg, and anyone who knows me knows I'm hardly "anti-freedom." Millar does his argument a disservice by making the pro-reg argument a weak straw man; it would be much deeper and more interesting if he at least tried to present a balanced view.
Out of interest, do you also consider driver's licenses to be fundamentally un-American?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Regulation/restriction has one big flaw. It requires honest people to abide by it. Meaning that for the most part, Supervillians won't feel compelled to abide by the registration. So only the good guys have to toss their privacy in the dustbin?
Only the good guys who want to use force to apprehend criminals. We don't allow anonymous police. We severely restrict the rights of people to use force to detain those suspected of crimes.
Hell, every time Spider-man punches someone, he's using deadly force.
quote:And anyway, Millar stated on NPR that it was a thinly veiled allegory of modern restrictions placed on Americans. Individual rights have been dealt some serious blows in the last few years, and since Millar is making no attempt whatsoever to hide it, those who are pro-reg would appear, by association, to be anti-freedom, (Until they are the ones who are "Come for" with no one to speak for them.)
Yeah, and as an allegory it's crap. We don't generally give people the right to punch out other people. The mutant registration act is a far better allegory.
To equate this to the "then they came for me" line and yellow stars is utter BS, by the way. In most states it's illegal for an adult to walk around in a mask, and it has been for years.
We've seen time and time again even the "good" heroes like Spider-man evade the police, even committing assault to do so. The situation here is very different than registering people based on race.
Posted by Mazer (Member # 192) on :
quote: anyone who knows me knows I'm hardly "anti-freedom."
True.
quote: do you also consider driver's licenses to be fundamentally un-American?
Requiring a license to operate a motor vehicle on roads built with taxpayer money doesn't bother me, but being required to produce identification on demand does. Also, cars are not constitutionally protected. Privacy isn't either, but I think you can make a stronger case for Right to Privacy than Right to Drive.
quote: We don't generally give people the right to punch out other people. The mutant registration act is a far better allegory. To equate this to the "then they came for me" line and yellow stars is utter BS, by the way.
Are you reading all of the civil war titles? Because in some they are saying that the SHRA is just like the MRA but includes all superhumans or beings with powers. No choice, if you have powers you will register. That is exactly like registering members of a race. I am not suggesting that registering crime fighters is a bad idea, but some of these titles have said flat out, S.H.I.E.L.D. or prison, no other choice. Amazing Spider-Man is confusing the issue, though.
Perhaps they are being ambiguous because they can't keep their story straight, or to show that the characters are confused over what the SHRA really is.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
If they can't even keep the requirements of the act straight then it's even poorer as allegory.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mazer:
Regulation/restriction has one big flaw. It requires honest people to abide by it. Meaning that for the most part, Supervillians won't feel compelled to abide by the registration. So only the good guys have to toss their privacy in the dustbin?
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Isn't that like saying it's unfair for honest people to only own guns if they are licensed to, while many criminals possess them illegally? Of course the super-villains won't register, but guess what... they're criminals!
I know in my gut that this whole registration act will probably end up turning just as bad as you suggest, but putting my gut aside, it seems perfectly reasonable right now. In our society we do not allow people to possess dangerous power without putting some check on it. You need training and a license to drive a car because you could kill someone with a car. You need a license and registration for firearms for the same reason. Police officers obviously don't get to hide their identities either. The Registration Act seems rather accommodating for super heroes. They still get to go around practicing vigilante justice with identities kept secret from the public so long as the government knows who they are and is satisfied that they are competent in using their powers.
Posted by Mazer (Member # 192) on :
quote: Isn't that like saying it's unfair for honest people to only own guns if they are licensed to, while many criminals possess them illegally? Of course the super-villains won't register, but guess what... they're criminals!
Yeah, it is exactly like that.
IRL, Firearms registration doesn't really have any benefit, and often leads to confiscation. Criminals won't register their weapons, just law abiding citizens. Why do we need to regulate and restrict the good folks? Isn't it the criminals we need to police? Registration just ensures that when a municipality or state ingnores the 2nd amendment, only the good folks get their means of defense confiscated. The socio-paths then have unarmed sheep ripe for the picking. Great idea, there.
If the issue of registration for supers is supposed to be accountability, then why are you unconcerned that the villians don't register? That makes it seem like registration only exist to hobble the good guys and punish them if they make mistakes. But villians get a pass.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Criminals won't register their weapons,
Therefore, when we catch them with a gun, we can throw them in jail.
Posted by neo-dragon (Member # 7168) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mazer:
quote: Isn't that like saying it's unfair for honest people to only own guns if they are licensed to, while many criminals possess them illegally? Of course the super-villains won't register, but guess what... they're criminals!
Yeah, it is exactly like that.
IRL, Firearms registration doesn't really have any benefit, and often leads to confiscation. Criminals won't register their weapons, just law abiding citizens. Why do we need to regulate and restrict the good folks? Isn't it the criminals we need to police? Registration just ensures that when a municipality or state ingnores the 2nd amendment, only the good folks get their means of defense confiscated. The socio-paths then have unarmed sheep ripe for the picking. Great idea, there.
If the issue of registration for supers is supposed to be accountability, then why are you unconcerned that the villians don't register? That makes it seem like registration only exist to hobble the good guys and punish them if they make mistakes. But villians get a pass.
I think you're missing my point though. How can you say that you shouldn't bother having a law just because criminals will break it? Villians don't get a pass. You see, they are wanted criminals! When they're brought to justice, not registering will probably add years to their sentence. If the Act is passed, any hero can refuse to take part and become a wanted criminal as well.
Are you seriously saying that anyone should be able to buy a gun without restriction and without anyone knowing about it just because criminals find a way to do it? Do you really see that as making the world safer, or more dangerous?
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:If the issue of registration for supers is supposed to be accountability, then why are you unconcerned that the villians don't register? That makes it seem like registration only exist to hobble the good guys and punish them if they make mistakes. But villians get a pass.
I think a large part of why the act is needed is that without it, you have no idea who the villians are.
Consider this, two superheroes with no previous experience with eachother meet up. What usually happens? They usually start fighting!
Now imagine if they meet after the registration act. Each hero checks the other hero's government issued ID, they see that the other is a registered hero, and they avoid thousands of dollars in damage, and they don't endanger countless lives.
Also, it would present the sort of accountability which is necessary in a world of super-heroes.
For instance, once Johnny Storm got in trouble with the authorities for going nova and destroying part of a school. Johnny hid in an abandoned office building.
Doctor Strange rounded up the Hulk, Spiderman, Wolverine, and Ghost Rider to go find Johnny, and bring him in.
Those four ended up encountering the Fantastic Four, and a huge fight took place. Thing got his face sliced off from Wolvie. Thing got punched through into a neighboring building, causing I'm sure hundreds of thousands of dollars in damage, and perhaps even killing office workers.
Now imagine the same scenario after the registration act. Johnny is a registered superhero, and his powers go a bit out of control and he blows up the school (though property damage only).
It would be much like a police officer's car going out of control and crashing into a business.
The cop would be suspended temporarily until an investigation is conducted, afterwards he is either pardoned, penalized, or fired.
Same would happen to Johnny.
If Johnny ran, like he did from the cops, the government would revoke his license to be a superhero, and if he continued to use his powers, he would then be brought in by a government sanctioned force. The rest of the FF wouldn't fight against the government force like they did against the Hulk and company, because if they did their own licenses would be revoked.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Instead of Guns, which we are sure the government is just waiting to impound from all the good people out there, compare it to driving.
Most drivers get licenses for cars. THe government controls how we drive, where we drive, even what we drive, yet they do it in a way that only increases the safety of those on the road.
They have yet to impound cars for political reasons, or void licences based on your voting record.
That doesn't mean there hasn't been corruption and abuse of the system.
It also doesn't mean that bad guys get licenses, and mostly good people occasionaly loose theres. Nor do all the bad guys give up driving.
On the other hand, I don't think many people want habitual drunk drivers to retain thier licenses.
Of course, the requirement for insurance would be interesting in a Super Hero universe.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
=== SPOILERS =====
The latest issue of Spider-Man made me feel a lot better. In Civil War we see him following along with Iron Man, attacking Captain America, and unmasking. All of which being somewhat out of character.
In Amazing, we see he doesn't quite trust Tony Stark, he's still not sure unmasking was a good idea, and the thought of fighting on the opposite side from Captain America causes a great deal of anguish and self-searching. Plus the fight (and Peter's perception of it) was fantastic, a much better way of portraying the standard "hero fighting hero" cliche than I've seen.
More of this and I might let JMS's hideous Gwen Stacy storyline go by. Well, no, probably not, but I'll feel better about him.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
You mean to tell me that Spiderman teamed up with Iron Man to fight Captain America? Seems a bit unfair of a fight TBH.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Actually, Iron Man has his hands full fighting a bunch of other people at that point. Spider-Man encounters Captain America -- who's leading a kind of poorly thought-out "resistance" at this point -- and they both ask each other to reconsider what they're doing. They're both semi-committed to their courses, though, so they half-heartedly fight for a bit. The Captain manages to distract Spidey and escapes, leaving his shield behind; Spider-Man then prevents a group of kids from stealing the shield and leaves it stuck to a wall for Cap, knowing he'll want to come back for it.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Interesting...
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
Am I the only one who isn't really digging the "Iron Spider" costume? Seems very out of character...and not needed when you consider Spidey has super-strength, speed, etc.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
I just assume it'll go away and they'll have the stock "I'm back!" splash bage. I also assume the new and poorly defined spider bits will also go away.
There's a hint that he's not entirely happy with his Iron Spidey costume in this issue, in fact...
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Is there a super hero that would not benefit from being outfitted with an awesome custom made suit ala iron man mode?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I expect it would cramp Mr. Fantastic's style. Same goes for Plastic Man, of course.
And it could pretty much be gilding the lily to stick Superman in something like that.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:Is there a super hero that would not benefit from being outfitted with an awesome custom made suit ala iron man mode?
If the Hulk wear to wear a similar suit, it would smash into pieces the first time he punched one of his opponents (well, the first time he did so while angry).
Thor would probably be hindered far more than helped by such a suit as well.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I can't see how it'd do The Human Torch a whole lot of good either.
While he's a villain, the Sandman from early in Spiderman's career wouldn't be helped by such a suit either.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Pff we are in the superhero universe. Make the suit out of ademantium and it wont shatter and it could use hydralics to amplify the hulks strength.
I need to think about Mr Fantastic for awhile, I've always hated his power to be honest.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
I think you've got me Noemon
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
quote:Pff we are in the superhero universe. Make the suit out of ademantium and it wont shatter and it could use hydralics to amplify the hulks strength.
Actually, one thing that I would love to see Hulk with is an Adamantium battle axe. There's no question that this would make the Hulk a more effective fighting force.
As far as I know, all versions of Hulk could be cut (usually requiring some sort of Adamantium blades, but some versions did not).
Admittedly, a sort of chain-mail Adamantium vest or helmet could be quite useful for Hulk.
But, Adamantium manipulation is not something that Tony Stark can actual do.
It also isn't something which can be made into a high tech Iron-Man style suit.
The idea that hydraulics could enhance Hulk's strength is actually pretty silly (that is if the whole conversation isn't silly enough ). His strength far surpases anything that technology could produce, and it isn't even bound by the laws of physics. Hulk, when angry, could lift more on one finger than every hydraulic lift on earth combined could lift.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: I think you've got me Noemon
Your larger point's intact, though; I was just picking nits.
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
Hm, sometimes I think this stuff defies conventional science a bit.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Well...maybe a bit.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
It's true, but it is also part of the fun .
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
My dad loved to take advantage of my trusting nature when I was very young whenever we watched movies.
We would watch movies like Temple of Doom, Jaws, and ET and he would say, "You know this is based on a true story?"
Finally I just started doubting him whenever he said it and one day we watched "The Ghost and The Darkness" and even with the narrator saying that, "Even the most impossible events in this story actually took place." I had to go see the lions in the Field Museum in Chicago before I was convinced.
Incidentally I now love watching movies with people I don't know and saying, "You know this movie is based on a true story." Do it either with a movie like Blade Runner because then its just absurdly funny, or with a movie that probably could have really happened and try to keep people convinced as long as possible.
I feel sorry for you if you say Fargo and trusted the directors when they said it was based on a true story, it isnt.
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
I did that with the Baz Luhrman Romeo and Juliet .. .
Admittedly, I had accomplices and our victim was kinda gullible.
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
I did that with the Baz Luhrman Romeo and Juliet .. .
Admittedly, I had accomplices and our victim was kinda gullible.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
I was behind on my comic book stuff while I was off in Japan. I came back and all this Civil War stuff was waiting for me. Some of it I find really interesting; some of it I find sort of boring. Hopefully as it continues the interesting will outweigh the boring.
Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
I don't like superhero registration because it makes it easier for the government to get super DNA and work on a super soldier which will inevitably go crazy and rebel, slaughtering thousands. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
You mean Captain America? He's anti-registration.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
True Tom, but if the government gets the DNA of, say, Spidey, She-hulk and the Fantastic Four and starts splicing...you've got some super soldiers.
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Edit: Added the emoticon so people don't think I am seriously calling the community "fools."![[Wink]](wink.gif)
). His strength far surpases anything that technology could produce, and it isn't even bound by the laws of physics. Hulk, when angry, could lift more on one finger than every hydraulic lift on earth combined could lift.