The fat discrimination and rights thread brought up some issues for me and I thought they would be more appropriate for a separate thread.
All my life, I’ve been the object of scorn, ridicule, or envy because of the way I look or the things I have. People have been very cruel and ugly to me and have felt completely virtuous and justified doing so. Frankly, I’m getting tired of it.
I was very thin growing up and I started to develop when I was 9 years old. I was an AA cup in 5th grade and I was a large C in 8th grade. I ended up a D in high school and didn’t gain weight anywhere else. Every girl in America would kill for my figure, right? I was miserable. My cousin, Rebecca, wouldn’t speak to me for months after we went bra shopping with our mothers because she was flat and I was not. None of my girl friends would let me complain that I felt awkward – they’d either roll their eyes dismissively or get furious. When I was in 5th grade, the boys somehow got hold of a book on female development. It showed the 5 stages of breast growth (5 being the biggest) and they called me “Size 5” all year. I was only 10 and I would come home in tears over it (I was savvy enough not to let them know it bothered me). Boys and men mistook my age and made very suggestive comments to me. This is scary and humiliating to a young girl and I felt like a dirty freak. The summer between 4th and 5th grade, a friend of my cousin Tommy’s asked me if I wanted to have sex with him because “girls like you have sex with all the guys.” He had me backed against a tree – thank goodness my cousins found us or I don’t know what he might have done. I was 10 and he was 12. This continued throughout my adolescence and early adulthood. I went on a lot of dates with a lot of boys and almost none of them were interested in my mind. When I wouldn’t do what they wanted, they spread terrible rumors about me. A lot of the other girls were jealous and only too happy to believe, embellish, and spread these rumors. So while I was popular in school (which everyone thinks they want), I was very unhappy.
Even when I became more comfortable with myself, I couldn’t escape it. When I was 17, I became engaged to a boy from a very wealthy family (we broke it off before we left for college). He was overweight and had bad skin and was “ugly” by some standards. He was so kind and smart and funny that he looked wonderful to me, but people stared at us when we were out. His family had box seats to the symphony and we often went. One time we met some little old ladies who knew his family. By an awful coincidence I was in a bathroom stall when they came to brush their hair and I overheard them talking about us. The gist of the conversation was that we were a perfect match because he had the money and brains and I had the looks and family name. I found that amusing at first, but then I thought about how unfair it was to Jason and me. He was the first person who saw beyond my looks and could not have cared less about my family name. I didn’t care about his money and I was every bit as smart as him. But because of how we both looked I was a (future) trophy wife and he was a sugar daddy.
Then came the Senior Luncheon slide show. For the first half, whoever made it put a picture of me in board shorts and a (non-skimpy) bikini top on every other slide. It was at a class picnic and I was grilling and I was hot and unaware of the camera, otherwise I would have kept my tee shirt on. Ha, ha, it’s just a joke, but that was one of the only pictures of me shown. I worked very hard in high school and none of it made it into the slide show but my “awesome rack.”
It was both better and worse in college. It was the first time I encountered militant feminists and, boy, did they not like me. I was called everything from a “stupid slut” to a “vapid Barbie” (which I couldn’t figure out because I wasn’t blonde). It wasn’t just the MFs who thought I was stupid – one calc. professor told me to drop his class and forget pre-med because a “girl like me” doesn’t need to have such a hard major.
When I met and married Andrew, I got hostility from a lot of my single friends. They were outraged if I complained about anything, because you shouldn’t have anything to complain about if you have a husband. This hurt me all the more because I wasn’t expecting it at all, especially from my friends. I also got a lot of contempt from classmates when I got engaged my senior year of college. They would “joke” that I was getting my MRS degree and would ask if I was even getting a job after graduation. Some of the MFs asked my why I had bothered to go to college at all and didn’t I know that I had stolen a space from someone who could have done something with a Columbia degree and I was setting the women’s cause back 50 years.
I can’t even be proud of my college education. I usually say that I went to college in New York if people ask where I went. If I mention that I went to Columbia, people talk about how lucky and privileged I am and “it must be nice to have a silver spoon in your mouth.” I earned a scholarship and worked 25-30 hours a week to put myself through – neither luck, nor privilege, nor silver spoons had anything to do with it.
My point is this: neither my looks nor my husband nor my Ivy League education has protected me from misfortune. My figure didn’t make my father not abuse then abandon me. My Ivy League education didn’t keep my mother from having a brain tumor. My marriage didn’t make me not be infertile or save the 3 babies I lost or keep Aerin from being a micropreemie. I would trade everything I am or have so that Aerin could be healthy. Everyone has sorrow and adversity in their lives and everyone is entitled to sympathy and compassion – even people who have things you think you want.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Most of your complaints can be summarized as follows: "I have been lucky. People have been jealous of my good fortune and have not always shared my priorities. Also, because I was attractive, they often assumed I was stupid or sexually available."
I wasn't going to get into this, because it's ultimately none of my business and I'm really afraid that my honest opinion is going to be hurtful to you. But you've actually invited comment, here, and this thread is in some large part targeted at comments I made earlier, so I may as well.
You've weathered a handful of real tragedies. But I think you also need to be aware of how overwhelmingly lucky you are that your memories of childhood pain only are of people who just didn't appreciate you completely.
Yeah, all tragedy is relative. But yours, even by the spoiled standards of the people on this forum, is not a story of woe.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
And most of your post can be summarized like so, "Your feelings are invalid because you have things I think are desireable."
Child abuse, abandonment by a parent, and sexual assualt do not make me overwhelmingly lucky. And I think you are too quick to dismiss how hurtful it can be when people assume you are stupid or slutty. Think how it would make you feel if people immediately assumed that you must have gotten your job because you performed sexual favors for your boss. How would you like it if people assumed you married Christy because she's pretty? Or how she would feel if people accused her of marrying your for your money?
You do remind me that I forgot to mention that I am very grateful for the many blessings I do have in life - my family's relative health, my happy marriage, my comfortable lifestyle. I certainly don't mean to imply that I feel like I've had a bad life. But I don't think it's right that I don't get to complain about the bad things that have happened to me because of my looks or education or marriage.
I also think that people need to keep things in perspective. So many people think, "If only I was thin, rich, pretty, large-chested, married, etc., I'd be happy. Plastic surgeons and dating services are multi-billion dollar industries because of it, but those things don't take away problems and they won't protect anyone from tragedy.
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
quote:This continued throughout my adolescence and early adulthood. I went on a lot of dates with a lot of boys and almost none of them were interested in my mind.
And you think this is unique to attractive developed women because.....? I am reminded of a scene in When Harry Met Sally
quote:Sally: That's not true, I have a number of men friends and there's is no sex involved.
Harry: No you don't.
Sally: Yes I do.
Harry: No you don't.
Sally: Yes I do.
Harry: You only think you do.
Sally: You're saying I'm having sex with these men without my knowledge?
Harry: No, what I'm saying is they all want to have sex with you.
Sally: They do not.
Harry: Do too.
Sally: They do not.
Harry: Do too.
Sally: How do you know?
Harry: Because no man can be friends with a woman he finds attractive, he always wants to have sex with her.
Sally: So you're saying that a man can be friends with a woman he finds unattractive.
Harry: Nuh, you pretty much wanna nail'em too.
In the immortal words of Dr. Zoidberg, "I kid I kid." I was just reminded of that scene.
I like this line from your post:
quote: Everyone has sorrow and adversity in their lives and everyone is entitled to sympathy and compassion – even people who have things you think you want.
After reading your post, I find it hard to believe people can be so insensitive over your "fortune." I am not, however, a good looking, smart, wealthy woman. Is it possible any of these reactions could be the result of any behavior on your part? Just a question--not an accusation.
After reading about the 11 year old and 10 men, maybe I shouldn't give so many people the benefit of thedoubt.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
(((Mrs M)))
That was a very interesting read, and a great point. Thank you. Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
quote: Also, because I was attractive, they often assumed I was stupid or sexually available."
How is this different from "Because I am obese, people assume I am lazy/slothful/unmotivated"?
And isn't that assumption a big part of what other people were complaining about in regards to attitudes about weight?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: Child abuse, abandonment by a parent, and sexual assualt do not make me overwhelmingly lucky.
As you didn't mention them in your above litany, they naturally weren't factored into my assessment. I can understand why each of those would factor into your reluctance to consider your attractiveness a net positive. That said, it still is a net positive.
I doubt you'd find a single ugly person, for example, who would be unwilling to trade -- in the same way that it'd be surprising to run into a poor person who'd rather cope with their current problems than cope with the altogether less painful difficulties that come with having too much money.
Some problems (and sets of problems) are worse than others. Individual factors can exacerbate them, but I maintain that being really pretty does not bring with it anywhere near the crate of problems that get unloaded on people who are unattractive.
quote: How is this different from "Because I am obese, people assume I am lazy/slothful/unmotivated?"
Because for many of those people, being stupid and sexually available is socially attractive. In other words, that alone would not be a reason not to associate with her -- and, in theory, she could then eventually penetrate their presumption if she so chose. The assumptions made of fat people are never positive ones, and therefore fat people must exert a great deal more effort even to get people to stick around long enough to see through the first impression. That she was beating off people she didn't want to get to know with a stick is, IMO, far less irritating than desperately wishing someone would want to get to know her.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote: Child abuse, abandonment by a parent, and sexual assault do not make me overwhelmingly lucky.
As you didn't mention them in your above litany,
She did, actually.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
You're right. I actually missed that sentence in her last paragraph. I'm sorry.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:I doubt you'd find a single ugly person, for example, who would be unwilling to trade
And yet, when people who have those things describe their hard work that was necessary to obtain them, they are considered insensitive. If people were really that interested in trading, many could do so.
You said it yourself in the other thread: the time you could spend exercising is more important to you for other things. You have, essentially, traded losing weight for something else. It's probably a good trade for you. But it's still a trade.
I've seen you dismiss two tales of pain caused by being thin now without even giving the tellers the benefit of the doubt.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:I doubt you'd find a single ugly person, for example, who would be unwilling to trade -- in the same way that it'd be surprising to run into a poor person who'd rather cope with their current problems than cope with the altogether less painful difficulties that come with having too much money.
Sometimes I wonder why it is you feel qualified or obligated to rank the importance of other peoples' problems. No one has it easy, and everyone is differently equipped to deal with the unique problems they face growing up. A childhood that might ruin one person might strengthen another.
So I think long and hard before marginalizing someone's experiences, just because they seem not that bad. I often hear people railing against entertainers and athletes who complain about the burdens of fame and public affection. You arguments about the positives of being good looking all apply to them to, yet I don't having any trouble empathizing.
I would hate having people interrupt my meals, follow my every move, constantly hound me for pictures and autographs, and generally harass me every minute of every day. And I constantly hear people dismissing the claims with some statement like, "That's what they get paid all that money for" or "They brought it on theirselves."
That is not an excuse. And just because someone has something you think you want is not reason to lash out at them.
Life is not easy. Not for anyone. No one escapes puberty unscathed. That's just the way of it.
And since I can never know exactly the burden someone else carries, I find it supremely arrogant for someone to judge it through their own set of experiences and deign it 'not that bad.'
Posted by Kasie H (Member # 2120) on :
Frankly, I think it's always hard to be someone who stands out from the crowd, for any reason, at any point in one's life. It is particularly hard during puberty and adolescence.
This argument isn't really about fat and skinny, I don't think. It's about being differet. Fat people feel different from the people around them who they perceive to be more attractive. They are often treated differently because of their weight, and it's difficult. Mrs. M had a different kind of figure, but she was still singled out for it. It's a different type of attention, to be sure, but it's still negative, and still hurtful.
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
This and the other thread make me very thankful that the thing that makes my build stand out is not being excessively curvy or excessively over- or under- weight, but just large: naturally muscley, broad-shouldered, tall, big-boned, and just generally intimidating. No one *ever* made fun of me for *that*. Cept my friends, but only teasingly and only because they know I like them. I am lucky.
Course, finding a guy who I wouldn't accidentally hurt is slightly difficult
[edited for forgetting a key word]
Posted by foundling (Member # 6348) on :
Mrs. M I can relate to and empathize with alot of what you've said. It can be difficult to have something that other people want. I wasnt wealthy growing up, but we had more money than most of my friends. I didnt have a "perfect" body, but was relatively skinny with a ridiculously large chest that garnered me attention I didnt want. I was smart and sassy, but I had alot of guy "friends" who I couldnt really trust and female "friends" who didnt actually like me. And I got alot of the same reactions from people that you did. Jealousy isnt a fun thing to be on the recieving end of.
quote: Everyone has sorrow and adversity in their lives and everyone is entitled to sympathy and compassion – even people who have things you think you want.
I agree with this, but only to a certain extent. I do actually think , in the context of this discussion, that some situations are more worthy(thats not the exact right word, but I cant think of a better one right now) of sympathy than others. Even though I hated alot of the crap that came along with my specific situation, I would NEVER have traded it for being heavily overweight. Do you know why? Even though people assumed I was stupid and over-sexed because of my breasts, and spoiled because of my family, I was still treated better than any "fat" person I knew. I was aware of this from a very young age. I got more respect, and was treated with more kindness, than my overweight friends. Yeah, being thought of as stupid sucks. But it was easy to change peoples opinions about me because I already had the advantage of being "normal". Well, relatively normal. I've always thought of it as a luxory that I had done nothing to deserve, but for which I was very grateful. People who are overweight more often than not dont have the advantage of being considered "normal". Therefore, it is incredibly difficult for them to challenge and change the first impression that most people get of them. They are treated "differently" in a way that we(the general we) will most likely never experience. So while I can understand what you are trying to say, that everyone has problems and there shouldnt be more sympathy given to one over the other, I dont really agree with it. I think that, in this world, people who are treated like crap because of the way they look or how much they weigh will always be more deserving of my sympathy for the simple fact that what they are going through is harder than anything I ever went through. I'm NOT saying that what you went through is something to be scoffed at as being easy in comparison to something else. I dont know you, and I dont really know what you went through, so I wouldnt presume to judge. And it sounds like you were really hurt by peoples additude twords you and what you had to endure with your family. But, again in the context of this discussion, I dont think it's a fair comparison to make.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Let me expand on what I meant by trading.
Eve is basically fit and at the perfect weight for her. I am 50 pounds overweight. Were we to "trade" so that she weighed 25 pounds more (scaling to keep things proportional) and I 50 pounds less, the "trade" would last at most three years. Because she'd be back down to her current weight and I'd be back up to mine, unless we both made some significant changes in our life. Keeping our relative bodies after a trade involves the same lifestyle change as acquiring them without a trade would.
Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
Thanks, Mrs. M for bringing the issue to light. Too many people are ignorant to our circumstances (specifically, having large breasts).
Until they have been in our shoes they will never understand our feelings of shame, self-loathing, embarrasment, and fear. The fear that these men will take it a step further than propositions and catcalls and move on to violence. Nothing can compare to the feeling of watching a man "drink you up" with his gaze to make you feel filthy.
You want nothing more than to stop them from calling you names that make you cry and ask your self "what's wrong with me?" I cannot understand why people think it's ok to treat me like that because I am a D-cup.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I think some people may have missed the point of Mrs. M's post. She's not saying "pity me", but rather "think a little more before you scorn others for having it so easy". At least, that's the way I understand her. And really, when have you known Mrs. M to be anything but gracious and generous and kind to everyone here, always giving people the benefit of the doubt? I don't see this as her whining that she has it worse than others, at all! She's saying the exact opposite, in fact. She's saying that no matter what your circumstances are, you should never lash out at someone because you assume they have it much easier than you do.
I don't want to put words in your mouth, Ms. M, but it seems to me that you are being misread, to a certain extent. Am I right? I agree completely with what (I think) you are saying.
[ July 11, 2006, 11:54 PM: Message edited by: Tatiana ]
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Mrs. M
A long time ago, possibly a couple of years, you posted something I meant to comment on, but never did. You'd been a houseguest at a friends house, and another houseguest, before even meeting you had been extremely nasty just because she saw you had several beauty products with you.
It made a huge impression on me because I could easily have been that other houseguest. I tend to assume that people won't like me, the dislike that I attribute to them increases proportionally to how much "better" I perceive them to be than I am. A response I often develop is to strike preemptively. Thus making it hurt a little less when they turn out to not like me.
Your post made me realize something that had honestly never occured to me before. That I might actually hurt them by this behavior. I had just assumed that they were so far above me that nothing I could do would have any kind of effect on them. It was a very important lesson for me. I've tried, since I read that post, to assume people start out liking me. That I don't need to defend myself because it was the defense that was making them dislike me. It's hard, it doesn't come naturally to me. And I was due for a reminder.
The above probably doesn't make any sense. I haven't read the thread this was in response to, so I can't comment on that. But what I wanted to get across was my thanks. Your posts have made me a better person.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I think you're right, Tatiana, since I'm feeling grateful to be me. But maybe it was the cumulative effect of all the posts on this thread.
quote:You have, essentially, traded losing weight for something else. It's probably a good trade for you. But it's still a trade.
:oogles post counts:
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Dags, you are assuming your genetic tendencies and Eve's (or whoever is doing this imaginary trade) are roughly equal. That is not always a fair assumption.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
It sure must suck for all the people who had similar problems in their life but aren't attractive, intelligent, well educated and popular.
[ July 12, 2006, 12:52 AM: Message edited by: MightyCow ]
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I've had a remarkably gifted life. I have had it easy. I'm smart, physically fit, well educated, have a good job, make friends easily, and people of the opposite sex often find me attractive.
What other reason would you need to hate someone? I must be such a bad person because I've been remarkably lucky. I can't offer up stories of the rough times I've had and therefore make you feel bad about disliking someone who's had it rough too. I haven't had it rough. The worst I can offer is some pretty major insomnia, that I've partially learned to deal with.
If you're going to hate someone for being smarter than you, or more attractive, or happier, or better educated, or having more money, or having had an easier life, I'm your guy. I have no idea what hating me will bring you, but I'm offerring myself up in the hopes that this will bring you what you need.
Posted by cmc (Member # 9549) on :
I think that 'suck' is relative to the person involved... We all have different thresholds of livability. What is okay with one person may be unbearable for the next. Each person grows, changes and develops at a different rate and plateau. It is up to us to accept and love ourselves, then make the best of the life we've been given.
I haven't scrutinized each post on here, only a few. What I learned from them is that all of us should realize that our Neighbors have all undergone hardships we may never know of and so we should not fault them for their blessings.
Thank You for the lesson I learned.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Not me. Not much of the hardship here. So you should totally fault me for my blessings.
Posted by cmc (Member # 9549) on :
I'm glad for you. My hope is that if hardships do come your way, you have the strength to handle them - or at least good companions to help you through.
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
Thank goodness the fatties aren't getting all the attention now.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:It's a different type of attention, to be sure, but it's still negative...
Well, no. It's actually mainly positive attention, but unwanted positive attention. That's the difference, in fact, as I see it.
quote:I must be such a bad person because I've been remarkably lucky.
You know, it occurs to me that no one -- on either of the threads that've touched on this topic -- has said this. Is this where the lucky people whine about how they feel underappreciated for being lucky? I mean, seriously, are those people out there who've been blessed with positive attributes really starving for a place to complain about how much harder having advantages has been?
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
Sexual harrassment because of your looks has to be so much funnier, so much more positive than being despised because of your looks. (Just in case someone couldn't say, I was being ironic)
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
And yet I guarantee you that the majority of people out there do not sexually harass an attractive person. There are in fact numerous studies which show that attractive people are treated overwhelmingly better in all cases and in all categories. That you have a few outliers who'll mistreat you is certainly no different than the experience of the unattractive; what is different is that the unattractive don't then have the experience of having everyone else in the world treat them better.
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
And yet I can guarantee you that the minority of persons who will harras a big-busted girl is enough to make her life very miserable and full of fear.
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
Also keep in mind that you can be big-busted and not pretty. I was very lonely in high school.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Mrs. M.
I have never seen you.
I did not know you were financially well off.
From your time here on Hatrack I do believe I've come to know you a bit, and I have been impressed with what I've found. You are intelligent, caring, a good listener, and friendly.
Growing up we had a neighbor who's cousin would come over a play with us. It was great in 4th and 5th grade, as she was good at hide and seek etc.
In 6th grade the guys I hung out with started talking about her as the prettiest girl in the school. She had developed a chest. I never noticed. I did notice how that development, and the response of the guys in our class, effected her.
They were impressed when I mentioned we'd played together for years. (No sexual innuendo was put into that, as I explained the details of what that play was). I was surprised that this impressed them.
I was short, unathletic, and a bit bookish and messy. The vagaries of class scheduling and friendships never put us together, and we never got close. Yet I have witnessed from a distance much of what you describe.
I am a very lucky person. My parents are still married after 40 years, still deeply in love. They care for me and my family with unlimited affection. I am even lucky in my flaws. I am overweight, balding, and still a bit bookish and sloppy. I worked with several women of questionable morals, and got close to them without fear of endagering my marriage. Such a woman looking for an affair would not be looking at me, nor would she try to tempt me.
When I was a child I came up with my first rule of life, and it basically explains everyone's reaction to your post, and possibly your need to post it here.
"So many seek to be understood. So few bother to understand."
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
(((Dan)))
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Dags, you are assuming your genetic tendencies and Eve's (or whoever is doing this imaginary trade) are roughly equal. That is not always a fair assumption.
Of course not. It's very likely true in the particular example I used, though. And the larger point - that simply "trading" requires more than suddenly being thin/smart/whatever the desirable trait it, but also a change in what you do - still stands.
I made no claims about it being easy. I made no claims that anybody can achieve a particular level of fitness.
The notion of "trading with you in a heartbeat" is simplistic and unrealistic as to be utterly useless. We've seen lots of people say "I'm not going to spend two hours at the gym to look like that." Fine - an admirable sentiment, I believe. But that means those people aren't actually willing to trade with the other person.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:But that means those people aren't actually willing to trade with the other person.
Only if the other person spends two hours a day at the gym, of course.
-------------
quote:Also keep in mind that you can be big-busted and not pretty.
Absolutely. In fact, while I've refrained from nitpicking, many of the things that Mrs. M cited as bad memories of her youth would have been worse, IMO, if she'd been unattractive. If large breasts, for example, count as an attention-drawing "deformity," think how much worse it'd be to have large breasts but also be ugly, so that the only attention you receive at all is for your breasts; how much pressure must such a girl be under TO become a "slut?" To not just have people assume she's slutty and stupid as a consequence of large breasts, but slutty and stupid AND slovenly and lazy and all the other assumptions that we know come with being unattractive?
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
I'm sorry Tom but I just don't get you.
Posted by Mig (Member # 9284) on :
First we get the I'm-a-victim-because-I'm-fat thread. Then we get the I'm-a-victim-because-I'm-rich-and-beautiful thread. I understand Mrs M's point that even the most privileged persons suffer, and don't condemn anyone no matter how they look. I only know Mrs. M from this one post, but, with all due respect, her tale of woe based on disparate events and shows a lack of perspective. All of the childhood and college incidents she described could have been a lot worse. (Based on how intelligent she sounds, I suspect that she appreciates all the good in her life and that all the bad is outweighed by the good, but the post leaves a different impression on me.)
Her abuse and family health history have noting to do with her looks. Ugly people also get discriminated against. Flat-chested women also get sexually assaulted. She makes her friends sound like a bunch of jealous Nellie’s, and they probably are, but its not uncommon to find successful, wealthy, good looking people who are the subject of envy and ridicule, even from other successful, good-looking people. I bet some of her tormentors were also good looking and rich. Has Mrs. M considered that her friends, I hesitate to use the word, who mocked her were probably the victims of some deep seeded insecurities of their own? Perhaps they mocked her college education because they felt inadequate as to their own successes? Where’s the sympathy for them?
Everyone will be disrespected at some time. Most of us will feel underappreciated at some time. Point is: we’d all be better off if we treat everyone with respect, keep a sense of perspective, and stop whining.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Large breasts might be uncharitably considered a "deformity" for the purposes of discussing negative attention. And like anyone with a "deformity" -- freckly people, people with big eyes, people with cleft lips, really tall people, people who appear unhealthily thin -- you'll stand out and attract some unwelcome attention. But if you have a "deformity" and are otherwise physically attractive, you will have an easier time of it than someone who has such a deformity and does not. (This is why a large-breasted and ugly girl, or a thin and ugly girl, or even a girl who's flat-out ugly for no particular reason, will have a harder time of it.)
One of the interesting side-effects of being fat is that obesity, as a condition, pretty much eliminates (for all but a handful of fetishists) the possibility of being found physically attractive (and I'm excluding here the kind of attraction people can learn to form based on emotional ties). You can be attractive and have large breasts. You can be attractive and freckled. You can "even" be attractive with a cleft lip, or with your ribs sticking through your skin. It is much, much harder to be attractive when fat, based on modern standards of attractiveness that specifically exclude fat people from that standard.
And lest you doubt me on that one, ask yourself: when was the last time you saw a fat character in a movie not be either a bad guy or the comic relief? When did a fat guy get the girl, when it wasn't meant to be a joke? We're seeing a trend now when fat women are portrayed semi-positively in the media; this trend has been aggressively pushed by some groups (including Oprah) specifically to "reclaim" the possibility of fat people being attractive.
How necessary is it for the large-breasted to lobby Hollywood to portray large-breasted women as attractive? How many thin people are unable to find thin role models?
Fat = ugly, in a way that large-breasted/thin/one-legged does not. Even people who've been the victims of horrible industrial accidents at least are given the consideration that, hey, at least they didn't do it to themselves. And "ugly" = miserable, in general.
--------
My point here is that, while everyone has problems, it is not a truism that all problems are equally serious. And moreover that some conditions -- like attractiveness -- carry costs which are almost always outweighed by their enormous benefits.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:There are in fact numerous studies which show that attractive people are treated overwhelmingly better in all cases and in all categories.
I treat attractive people overwhelmingly better in almost all cases and in almost all categories.
________
Edit:
I will say that there have been times, years on end, when I've purposefully made myself unattractive because I didn't want the attention. When I have a lot on my mind, it's nice to be left alone, but I always knew that a shave, hair-cut, and different clothes would make me presentable in under an hour.
I'm sympathetic to Mrs. M's case because it's hard to hide an outstanding womanly figure, and I know a few woman who have spent their adolescent and college years trying. Having been both ugly and dashing, I can say that having the choice is by far the superior circumstance because each level of attractiveness brings its own headaches, and I like to be able to pick my poisons.
[ July 12, 2006, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
And you're not in the minority. Hell, even while I'm complaining about it, I am fully aware that I treat attractive people better. It actually takes a conscious effort on my part for me to not do this.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:My point is this: neither my looks nor my husband nor my Ivy League education has protected me from misfortune. My figure didn’t make my father not abuse then abandon me. My Ivy League education didn’t keep my mother from having a brain tumor. My marriage didn’t make me not be infertile or save the 3 babies I lost or keep Aerin from being a micropreemie.
:nods:
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
quote:You know, it occurs to me that no one -- on either of the threads that've touched on this topic -- has said this. Is this where the lucky people whine about how they feel underappreciated for being lucky? I mean, seriously, are those people out there who've been blessed with positive attributes really starving for a place to complain about how much harder having advantages has been?
Perhaps I was too subtle. For the record, I'm not complaining. I don't care if people hate me or dislike me, at least for something like this. I am genuinely blessed and I see no reasons to complain about my life whatsoever. I was not the focus of my posts.
Rather, it's this idea:
quote:What I learned from them is that all of us should realize that our Neighbors have all undergone hardships we may never know of and so we should not fault them for their blessings.
and what it implies.
If I have been largely hardship free, is it okay and is it helpful in any way for people to fault me for my blessings?
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
I think, Mrs. M, that it is hard for a lot of people who have had similar misfortune and less luck to drum up a lot of sympathy for you. I don't say that to belittle what you've gone through. Nobody deserves to be sexually harassed, nobody deserves to be judged solely on their appearance (although, to be honest, I'd be surprised if the latter isn't something that everyone on the board hasn't experienced to some degree or another). So when they look at your post and see that they've gone through many of the same/similar things, but they were not wealthy/beautiful/married to a wonderful person it's very hard to feel too sympathetic. Perhaps that's a failing on their part, and perhaps it's unfair to ask you to be sensitive to it, but I think it's a reality.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
You know one of the things I like best about Mrs. M? I love how she is gracious. I love how when other people experience good fortune, she congratulates them on it. And as I have probably less of a filter on my mouth than I should have, I appreciate and admire how she hasn't let the dismissal of her experiences goad her into a reprisal of dismissing others'.
I think everyone has really great and really crummy things happen to them. The really great things are fabulous, but they don't make the really crummy things go away. Mentioning the great things in the same breath isn't an attempt to say the great things are to be lamented, but rather an attempt to keep a balanced view of the world - no matter how crummy some things are, they are not the sum of existence.
[ July 12, 2006, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote: My point is this: neither my looks nor my husband nor my Ivy League education has protected me from misfortune. My figure didn’t make my father not abuse then abandon me. My Ivy League education didn’t keep my mother from having a brain tumor. My marriage didn’t make me not be infertile or save the 3 babies I lost or keep Aerin from being a micropreemie.
Right. Being attractive and educated doesn't prevent child abuse, parental illness, or infertility. But why should it?
I think there are two different, closely related statements being made on this thread, and part of the hurt feelings and confusion are coming from not knowing who's making which argument. There's the statement "attractive people also have problems," which I think everyone would agree with, and there's the statement "being attractive is a problem" which I'm not sure whether anyone is making, but I know some people are reacting to.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
quote:You know one of the things I like best about Mrs. M? I love how she is gracious.
Gracious is the appropriate word.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
One of the interesting side-effects of being fat is that obesity, as a condition, pretty much eliminates (for all but a handful of fetishists) the possibility of being found physically attractive (and I'm excluding here the kind of attraction people can learn to form based on emotional ties).
On the flip side, why is it men who happen to not like being with thin girls are considered fethishists?
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
quote:Originally posted by dkw: I think there are two different, closely related statements being made on this thread, and part of the hurt feelings and confusion are coming from not knowing who's making which argument. There's the statement "attractive people also have problems," which I think everyone would agree with, and there's the statement "being attractive is a problem" which I'm not sure whether anyone is making, but I know some people are reacting to.
While I agree with this, I think the statement has also been made "attractive people would find their problems worse if they were also unattractive," which to me is both belittling and impossible to know or prove.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
Mrs.M, you had it worse than I did. I think it's despicable how people treated you because of the way that you look. Honestly, I think the part that I hated the most was that people automatically assumed that you're stupid. Being considered intelligent is really important to me. I'm glad you worked hard and proved them wrong. People didn't treat me too badly for being overweight, even in high school. I wasn't popular and some people didn't want to be my friend because of my size, but why would I want to be friends with them anyway? I had very good friends in high school, and I certainly wouldn't trade them in for the popular kids.
So I would venture that some things CAN be worse than being fat. It's all relative.
And really, this thread is making most of you seen really insane.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
And yeah, guys who find full-figured women attractive are fetishists??
That's got to be the stupidest thing ever said.
Well, no, I'm sure there's stupider, but that really is dumb.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
quote:Originally posted by Katarain: And yeah, guys who find full-figured women attractive are fetishists??
That's got to be the stupidest thing ever said.
Well, no, I'm sure there's stupider, but that really is dumb.
Well, not really. Guys who like women who are overweight or obese aren't necessarily fetishists.
However, guys who purposefully encourage bad eating habits in order to greatly increase the weight of their significant others because they get their jollies out of that kind of control and really find morbidly obese women sexually attractive are fetishists. They're specifically called "feeders."
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
Well yeah, THOSE people are fetishists. But my husband finds me wildly attractive, and he's not a fetishist.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Tom's statement excluded the type of attraction formed based on personal qualities, which is possibly what your husband finds attractive. I'm certainly not at all qualified to judge that, but I just wanted to make sure you saw that statement in Tom's post.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
No. It's physical attraction.
Sheesh. Is that so hard to believe? I'm a little insulted that it must be my glowing personality that attracts my husband to me. What else COULD it be?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*wince*
Edit: Oh, Katarain posted before I did, and she said it better.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:I'm certainly not at all qualified to judge that
I'm not sure how much more of a disclaimer I needed for you not to take offense. I suspect that it wouldn't have mattered.
It's not at all hard to believe. I just wanted to make sure you didn't think he was saying that it was impossible to find fat people attractive, unless you were a sexual deviant.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
It seems like you/he ARE saying that it's impossible to find them physically attractive.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Show me were I said or even intimated any such thing.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
He excluded "the type of attraction formed based on personal qualities," which only leaves THAT and the fetishists.
That says it.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
I'm not really angry, I'm just amused... I bet that it didn't mean to come out that way, but it certainly did.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by katharina: It seems like you/he ARE saying that it's impossible to find them physically attractive.
I should have you sit down with my wife sometime. She has self image issues. I try convincing her constantly that I find her very attractive.
I didn't start dating her because of her personality, which I didn't get to know untill a little later.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:He excluded "the type of attraction formed based on personal qualities," which only leaves THAT and the fetishists.
That says it.
Right. And that's a quote from Tom. I believe that that is what Tom was saying, but just because I offered a clarification of his statement doesn't mean that that's what I think.
I just misread his original post, and wanted to make sure Katarain hadn't done the same.
I think it's funny that Katarain insists that her husband's attraction to her is purely physical, to the point that she's insulted that I might've thought otherwise, and every girlfriend I've ever had would have been infuriated if I said such a thing about my attraction to them.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
Oh
It's not purely physical, I was just making the point that it is also physical. My glowing personality helps, too. <-- Like that.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang: [QUOTE] I think it's funny that Katarain insists that her husband's attraction to her is purely physical, to the point that she's insulted that I might've thought otherwise, and every girlfriend I've ever had would have been infuriated if I said such a thing about my attraction to them.
I can't speak for Katariain's situation obviously, but I think it depends on the stage of the relationship. Unless your friends first, odds are physical attraction is very important at the beginning. After a little while if physical attraction is the only thing, then I agree it could be considered insulting.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
Well, it has nothing to do with my situation, actually. But that doesn't make it true for most "normal" couples out there.
I just want to make it clear that what I found insulting (even though, honestly, I never really got mad about it), was the suggestion that it must be my personality that attracts my husband, as it could never be physical attraction. That's pretty darn insulting and incorrect. It's actually a combination of both types of attraction, working together.
It makes me a tad uncomfortable to use my relationship as the example here, but I know I started it. Oh well... Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:I just want to make it clear that what I found insulting (even though, honestly, I never really got mad about it), was the suggestion that it must be my personality that attracts my husband, as it could never be physical attraction. That's pretty darn insulting and incorrect.
I didn't mean to suggest that, and I apologize if it seemed I did.
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
It's okay. I said above that I didn't think it was intentional, that's just the way that it came out.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Guys, I'm sure Tom just misused the word "Fetish". No need to jump down his throat over it.
Fetish: 1 ... c : an object or bodily part whose real or fantasied presence is psychologically necessary for sexual gratification and that is an object of fixation to the extent that it may interfere with complete sexual expression
Is an obession with thin any less of a fetish than an obsession with fat? Nope.
But I'm sure what Tom meant to say was "Except for a handfull of people who find overweight more attractive than thin."
Pix
Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
I said this on another forum, but I think it is relevant here as well:
This whole argument over some problems are worse than others and some people have it worse and some better is pretty useless. We can never really experience someone else's life, so we're better off just trying to understand other people in the best way that we can and trying to get through our own lives which, at times, can be pure hell and sometimes pure heaven.
I really do see no point in measuring pain and trying to quantify it and compare it to other pain. It serves no purpose other than meaningless rhetoric.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest:
But I'm sure what Tom meant to say was "Except for a handfull of people who find overweight more attractive than thin."
Even then, its more then a handful. Many men just feel ashamed due to societal pressures.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Mrs. M's post reminded me of something I experienced in school years ago, and as it directly relates to this topic I think it might help if I tell you guys about it.
For the record I am not particularly good looking. I had pictures on Madowl to prove this if anyone can find them, but I think most of you will take me at my word. I am only 5'7'', and in high school had very bad acne problems. I had cystic acne all over my chest and regular acne on my face. I wasn't horrible, as most of the bad stuff was out of sight, but not attractive for the most part. I was aware enough to realize how bad it really was though. By high School most of the bad stuff was just scars.
I was also weird. Not scary weird, or dangerous, but different. I played the flute. I liked classical music and hated most popular music. I read 5-6 books a week, just for fun. I was really, really good at all the classes I liked, and barely passed the ones I didn't. I scored incredibly high on every subject other than math, but barely average in math, and was completely unable to do Algebra.
I wasn't smart enough to be a brain, I wasn't odd enough to be a geek. I swam and played tennis, but neither of them were popular sports so I wasn't a jock.
I was just me, and most of the time I liked it that way.
I went to school with a lot of the same people from 1st grade all the way through 12h. I saw a lot of people become popular, and a lot lose popularity, and I never really wanted to be a part of all of that. Sure, there were times when it would have been great, but most of the time it seemed like I wouldn't have been happy even if I was part of it.
The one thing I did do well, oddly enough (other than talking a lot) was that I had a knack, so to speak, of being in the right place at the right time. Not for me though, but for other people. I can't tell you how many times I had really pretty, popular girls, most of whom I had known for years in school, crying on my shoulder. I wasn't friends with them, most of them were people I didn't like very much at all, but I was there when they lost it and my parents had taught me empathy for others, so I listened to them, and tried to make them feel better without lying.
The thing that struck me most about all of this (it happened 6 times just my sophomore year) was that these were the people that most of the school wanted to be, or at least be like. Even my brainy, geeky friends envied them, although they would deny it if asked. They were the elite, the most popular girls (and a few guys, without the crying )in school, and they had no one else to talk to.
Without exception, when they were in distress, they felt alone. Betrayed, at times. Helpless, and distraught.
Just like me.
Most of them got embarrassed, thanked me for listening, and left. A few of them became good friends of mine, respecting the fact that I was who I wanted to be, for the most part. A couple of them even tried to "make" me popular, like some bad teen movie.
But what I learned was one of the most important lessons I have ever learned, and just reinforced what my parents had taught me...that while we may not all be the same, we all feel, and we all hurt.
Just because someone is popular doesn't mean their life is perfect, nor does it mean that if you are not that your life has to suck.
I didn't even buy a yearbook my senior year because I didn't care much about it, and I thought I would be awkward going up to people and asking them to write in it at the end of the year. It just seemed like I would have been begging for compliments, and the though of it made me uncomfortable.
Imagine my surprise when all of the people I mentioned above approached me and asked if they could write something in my yearbook, without me asking. I had some of the most popular people in school asking to say something nice about me, odd as that was. Cheerleaders, the class president, the captain of the football squad......about 20 people I listened to over the years.
It turns out that even the people who never hung out with me afterwards still remembered that I had helped them, even if it was just by listening. Most of them also told me that the fact that I was willing to help, even when most of them weren't my friends, and even occasionally when they had been people who had not treated me very well before that, had changed them and their views. They had learned something, both about themselves and about others, and it had meant something to them as well.
I went to buy a yearbook, but they were sold out. I ordered one, and it never came. I would have liked to have one, after all. I was glad that they had learned something about me as well as sharing something about themselves.
Most of all I was glad that I didn't have to deal with popularity, and that these people liked me for who I was. If they hadn't that was fine too, but it felt good to know that they remembered how I had treated them, even when I didn't like them mostly.
Tom, the fact is that people are judged according to appearances more often than not. Weight is something that you could control, at least partially, but that you choose not to. Beauty can be just as hard to deal with in some ways, socially, and is harder to hide.
I know a lot of people who are just as hurt and offended when they are judged stupid because they are pretty.....and statistics show that women overall, pretty or not, still encounter the "glass ceiling" in the workplace. In many cases my friends have deliberately dressed severe and tried to hide their beauty at work for that very reason, with varied results.
We all feel, and we all hurt. It is what we do with our lives after the hurt starts to fade that matters.
I think Mrs. M's post wasn't a "woe am I" post at all, but was to show that the grass isn't always greener once you get there after all. It just looks like it from the other side.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Stephan: I'm sure you're right. But I can't speak to that becuase I don't know.
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
Kwea, that was very interesting. Thank you for the time you spent writing this.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:I was just me, and most of the time I liked it that way.
I'm envious of this. I'm much more that way now than I was in high school.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Originally posted by Katarain: I really do see no point in measuring pain and trying to quantify it and compare it to other pain. It serves no purpose other than meaningless rhetoric.
Amen.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I really do see no point in measuring pain and trying to quantify it and compare it to other pain.
I disagree. Not only do I think we engage in it regularly without even realizing it, I think it's necessary. It's the whole principle of triage, for example.
The only reason that emotional pain isn't as obviously quantifiable is that it's harder to point to immediate consequences of emotional harm. If you're bleeding to death, it's easy to tell that you're more harmed than someone who's broken his arm. It's a bit harder to tell whether you've said something that's going to contribute to someone else's suicide thirty years from now.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
quote:I was just me, and most of the time I liked it that way.
I'm envious of this. I'm much more that way now than I was in high school.
So am I, to be honest. Notice that I said MOST of the time.
One of the things that one of those girls told me was that she envied me. I was astonished. She was beautiful, and she was real. She was popular because she was a good person, not one of the posers, and She envied ME?
She used the lunch room as a metaphor, saying I was all over the place. Sometimes I would be here, sometime I was over there, depending on who I wanted to sit with. She said almost everyone else had a set place, and they ate there for years, with the same group of people, for their entire high school experience.
I thought that was funny because I had felt like I didn't truly belong anywhere, and that while I had friends from all over I didn't have any group (other than band) where I really fit in.
What I had felt was a shortcoming she had seen as a strength.
She was right, BTW. Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:I really do see no point in measuring pain and trying to quantify it and compare it to other pain.
I disagree. Not only do I think we engage in it regularly without even realizing it, I think it's necessary. It's the whole principle of triage, for example.
The only reason that emotional pain isn't as obviously quantifiable is that it's harder to point to immediate consequences of emotional harm. If you're bleeding to death, it's easy to tell that you're more harmed than someone who's broken his arm. It's a bit harder to tell whether you've said something that's going to contribute to someone else's suicide thirty years from now.
Not true at all, Tom. Triage isn't about pain, mostly, it is about who is likely to survive.
Quite a bit of difference, so the analogy doesn't fit at all. Often the person in the most amount of pain isn't the person who needs prompt care the most, medically speaking.
The points you make about emotional pain are the reasons comparing that type of pain is frustrating and mostly pointless, as that type of pain is non-quantifiable.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:The points you make about emotional pain are the reasons comparing that type of pain is frustrating and mostly pointless, as that type of pain is non-quantifiable.
That is currently is doesn't mean we have to treat it as if it should always be. I can say with authority that calling someone "silly" is less painful than calling someone "foolish," assuming all else is held equal; similarly, having to pay $100,000 of taxes on $1,000,000 is less of a problem than having to pay $1,000 in taxes on a $10,000 income. In the same way, being fat is much, much worse from a social perspective than being thin.
Whether that measurement is even useful is outside the scope of this thread, although it's probably within the scope of the other one.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I've been wondering for the last few days if the definitions of 'fat' and 'thin' aren't holding people up somewhat.
I'm assuming that when Tom says 'fat', he means obese, or 50-100 lbs overweight. Because there are levels of fat, ranging from 'beer gut' to 'installing an extra large front door', each with its own burdens.
A person can only be so thin before dying, so it's a little easier to quantify.
quote: I can say with authority that calling someone "silly" is less painful than calling someone "foolish," assuming all else is held equal; similarly, having to pay $100,000 of taxes on $1,000,000 is less of a problem than having to pay $1,000 in taxes on a $10,000 income.
I don't have any problem disagreeing with both of these examples. Someone who takes themself very seriously and is supremely self-assured would likely rage at being thought 'silly' while dismissing someone who thought them 'foolish'. I know you think having a million bucks makes up for practically every other problem save the death of a loved one, but I stand by my earlier assertion that rich people have problems, just like poor people, and to judge their relative seriousness from the outside is just plain obnoxious.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
Maybe what Tom is saying is that all else being equal having money is better than lacking it and being attractive is better than being ugly.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I stand by my earlier assertion that rich people have problems, just like poor people, and to judge their relative seriousness from the outside is just plain obnoxious.
I should point out that being obnoxious is not the same thing as being wrong. The rich do have fewer -- and less serious -- problems unique to their condition, and are better-equipped than the poor to deal with the serious problems they share (like health issues). This is why the acquisition of wealth is often considered a goal; having more money facilitates more enjoyable things than having less money does.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:The rich do have fewer -- and less serious -- problems unique to their condition, and are better-equipped than the poor to deal with the serious problems they share (like health issues).
I disagree with this, and think the goal of accumulating wealth is based on the fantasy that money cures all problems, which I don't believe it does.
Is snowskiing more enjoyable than reading? It's certainly more expensive, so by your logic it would have to be, right? Not in my experience.
People like different things, and if people had a better understanding of what it took to actually make them happy I think the dead sprint to get rich would slow to a crawl, the only remaining racers being desperately shallow people.
Some of the happiest memories I have were doing free or dirt cheap activities. The most expensive date I ever went on was not the best. My most expensive car was not the best. My highest paying job was not the best.
I think that you upholding the stereotype that money makes life easier is both obnoxious and wrong (though I thank you for pointing out that you can be one without the other, I admit I laughed when I read that).
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
El JT: Can I have your money? I mean, since it doesn't make you happy...
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
What makes you think I have any money?
But when I give it away, you're nowhere close to the top of the list.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:It's certainly more expensive, so by your logic it would have to be, right?
No. I'm not saying that more expensive things are inherently better. I'm saying that having more money makes more things available to you, including expensive things or a greater quantity of inexpensive things.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
But what exactly so you hope to accomplish by belittling other people's problems?
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
JT: aww.. but money makes me happy.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:Originally posted by blacwolve: But what exactly so you hope to accomplish by belittling other people's problems?
I'm not sure he's "belittling other people's problems" -- Mrs. M started this thread specifically to juxtapose the pain of being beautiful and successful against the pain of being fat. She invited the comparison, and Tom disagrees that being found attractive is anywhere near as horrible as being found repulsive.
For that matter, so do I. Beauty's curse is to have people constantly pay attention to you -- often negative, yeah, but imagine the alternative. If you were ugly, you'd have to pursue men for any sort of romance. You'd often (usually, even) be unsuccessful, and what few times men did settle for you, you'd have to know you're giving up your first kiss, your virginity, your love to men who have at best uncomfortable hesitance at your advances, and at worst utter contempt for your desperation.
Yeah, it's rough to be beautiful. I'd say it's rough being alive in this world. But the alternative to beauty is far more painful.
I know fat women who would give away their virginities in a heartbeat for a moment of attention, but nobody will touch them. They latch on desperately to every smile anyone grants them, and fantasize heartbreakingly about what a good mother they'd be to his kids. Compare them with Mrs. M, who could probably pick whomever she wishes to bestow her attentions upon, and can toss men aside as easily as she can pick up a new one.
It's not the same, could never be the same. It sounds like Mrs. M's had a hard life, and I respect her for succeeding despite it -- but her beauty's hardly a hindrance, and I suspect she would have found her life far worse if she hadn't been born slender and chesty. Perhaps being ugly would have saved her from some few problems, but thousands more would have cropped up in their place.
Posted by Kasie H (Member # 2120) on :
Having no money is much harder than having money.
Period.
Everyone has issues regardless of their financial status, but not having to worry about whether or not you can make rent is, frankly, better than having to worry about it.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
There is always going to be someone who has it worse. Someone else's problems are always going to be worse than your own. But we're human, and our problems still hurt us, even if we know they could be worse.
I have great parents, I love them, and they love me. However, my mother has developed a habit of coming to me to complain about the many problems she has with my dad. It makes me very uncomfortable and I hate it.
Of course, things could be a lot worse, she could be abusive, I could not have a mother. Does that mean that I don't have a right to get upset when my mother starts in on what an awful person my dad is? Of course not. Among other things, I'm not capable of that much rationality, no one is.
Everyone who can post in this thread has access to internet, and is probably better off than someone dying of untreated AIDS in Africa. Does that mean that none of us have a right to feel bad?
I realize that almost everyone on this thread is speaking in the context of the fat thread, and I'm not. It was already 8 pages by the first time I noticed and I have neither the time, the inclination, nor the will to read it. But I've seen the attitude of "I've had it worse than you, so you shouldn't complain" time and time again both here and in the real world. And it's impossible, we're human, we're not capable of rationally assessing the good and bad in our lives and deciding that the good outways the bad and so we'll never be sad. If we were, I expect everyone on this forum would be happy all the time.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:Originally posted by blacwolve: I realize that almost everyone on this thread is speaking in the context of the fat thread, and I'm not. It was already 8 pages by the first time I noticed and I have neither the time, the inclination, nor the will to read it. But I've seen the attitude of "I've had it worse than you, so you shouldn't complain" time and time again both here and in the real world. And it's impossible, we're human, we're not capable of rationally assessing the good and bad in our lives and deciding that the good outways the bad and so we'll never be sad. If we were, I expect everyone on this forum would be happy all the time.
I realize you're not speaking in context of the fat thread, but I think you missed that Mrs. M is.
quote:The fat discrimination and rights thread brought up some issues for me and I thought they would be more appropriate for a separate thread.
All my life, I’ve been the object of scorn, ridicule, or envy because of the way I look or the things I have.
This isn't a matter of complaining how difficult it is to be beautiful, but how fat people don't realize that beautiful people suffer, too. And the comparison is asinine.
Yes, you'll receive unwanted attention if you're beautiful. If you're ugly, not only will you have relatively little (if any) attention, but if you ever do have a man, it's not unlikely he'll treat you with contempt and constantly try to "trade up," particularly if there's no binding commitment.
In fact, I might say complaining of beauty at all is a fairly vapid concern. If Mrs. M tires of the trials of beauty, I'm sure there's a Dunkin' Donuts not far from her -- if she wishes to be rid of attention, it's not difficult for her to do so.
I'm not unsympathetic to her plight. I have a beautiful friend who's simply incapable of making friends -- not because she's not hilarious or charming, but because every male friend she makes invariably winds up falling in love with her, and every woman she meets is catty and hostile to her, since men usually ignore her companions for her. I can see how it can be a curse.
But comparing the trials of the beautiful to the neglect of the plain or the abuse of the ugly isn't particularly worthwhile. Mrs. M says she has the best of the possible worlds, and complains about it. I'm unsurprised at a lack of sorrow on her behalf.
For a better analogy, consider a rich person in the United States complaining to a Ugandan refugee about how difficult life is with all this damn money. How many tears do you expect the refugee to weep for the American?
Posted by Azile (Member # 2312) on :
I don't think anyone is saying that Mrs. M's problems are not legit, it's just that the title of the thread itself begs for comparison. The statement "The Grass Isn't Greener" (... on the other side) suggests that Mrs. M's problems as a beautiful, slender and wealthy women is less green/not greener/somewhat yellower than the problems on the other side of the spectrum-- those faced by the obese, the ugly and the poor.
Some people here are arguing that while the grass on Mrs. M's side is possibly more yellow as opposed to the popularly assumed green, the grass on the other side (obese ect...) may in fact be even more yellow, more withered, or even less green than Mrs. M's side. Or, uh, somewhat less watered.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
How can one say that their grass isn't greener if they've never been on the other side of the fence?
More people strive to be richer than poorer. There are more breast implants than reductions.
Coincidence? Come on.
Your grass is greener, Mrs. M. There may be greener grass yet, but it's not on the lawns of the unattractive and poor.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:Originally posted by Frisco: How can one say that their grass isn't greener if they've never been on the other side of the fence?
More people strive to be richer than poorer. There are more breast implants than reductions.
Coincidence? Come on.
Your grass is greener, Mrs. M. There may be greener grass yet, but it's not on the lawns of the unattractive and poor.
You should listen to this guy. If anyone understands what it's like to be ugly...
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
Also shy, awkward, picked on, and ignored. I like my grass way better now.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
Why? Do you grow it long to compensate?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Your grass is greener, Mrs. M. There may be greener grass yet, but it's not on the lawns of the unattractive and poor.
So being fat is worse than being abused? How do you know?
If her cousin's friend had been successful in his attempt to rape her, would she have some browner grass then?
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee:
quote:Your grass is greener, Mrs. M. There may be greener grass yet, but it's not on the lawns of the unattractive and poor.
So being fat is worse than being abused? How do you know?
If her cousin's friend had been successful in his attempt to rape her, would she have some browner grass then?
You're confusing being attractive with being assaulted. Perhaps Mrs. M believes one can't be assaulted without being attractive (which isn't true, particularly of children), but I doubt you can argue one can't be attractive without being assaulted.
Rape is a bad thing. Beauty is not.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:You're confusing being attractive with being assaulted.
No I'm not. You read a story in which a person was abused by her father and someone else tried to rape her. You said she wasn't as unfortunate as overweight people - not overweight people who had also faced attempted rape, but overweight people in general.
You're confusing one particular type of good fortune with not suffering at all.
I've repeatedly seen "It would have been worse if you'd been fat." If everything else was the same except that she was overweight and her cousin's friend hadn't tried to rape her, are you qualified to state she would have been better off? How about if we take off the abuse, too? Could she complain then?
quote:Perhaps Mrs. M believes one can't be assaulted without being attractive (which isn't true, particularly of children), but I doubt you can argue one can't be attractive without being assaulted.
Rape is a bad thing. Beauty is not.
Mrs.M stated that IN HER CASE, this was the justification used by the perpetrator of the rape attempt. Again, were he successful, would it be OK for her to regret having been thin and pretty? Maybe you should write out the rules so we know when we have your permission to think our suffering is worth sharing.
If I seem a little touchy, it's because I know at least one person who purposefully got fat after she was raped because she was convinced that being attractive made it her fault.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
quote:So being fat is worse than being abused? How do you know?
Absolutely not. But being unattractive doesn't preclude someone from being assaulted. In fact, I think being unattractive makes it easier to be.
quote:If her cousin's friend had been successful in his attempt to rape her, would she have some browner grass then?
Again, these things didn't happen solely because she was attractive, they just happened to befall an attractive person. The things specific to attractive, privileged people she mentioned--scorn, envy, and ridicule because of said advantages--are much "greener" than the plights on the underprivileged and/or the unattractive.
Yes, even being almost assaulted sucks. But to assume (which I don't think she did) it doesn't happen to people of less than average attractiveness in naive and condescending.
[edit to add: I don't mean to belittle Mrs. M's hardships, just point out that the hardship that is nearly inherent to privelege and non-unattractiveness is not worse than the opposite. The stuff that happens to both just sucks in general.]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:The things specific to attractive, priveledged people she mentioned--scorn, envy, and ridicule because of said advantages--are much "greener" than the plights on the underpriveledged and/or the unattractive.
Yes, but she wasn't only speaking of the things specific to her advantages. Maybe her conclusion bears repeating:
quote:My point is this: neither my looks nor my husband nor my Ivy League education has protected me from misfortune. My figure didn’t make my father not abuse then abandon me. My Ivy League education didn’t keep my mother from having a brain tumor. My marriage didn’t make me not be infertile or save the 3 babies I lost or keep Aerin from being a micropreemie. I would trade everything I am or have so that Aerin could be healthy. Everyone has sorrow and adversity in their lives and everyone is entitled to sympathy and compassion – even people who have things you think you want.
She's not saying she deserves sympathy and compassion because her good fortune didn't extend to protect her from some very bad crap. She's saying that her good fortune doesn't mean she hasn't suffered very bad crap.
Tom's continual insistence that it would be worse had she not had those advantages - which flies in the face of her account of the attempted rape and also in the face of the stories of breast and butt grabbing attractive teen girls face - is like walking up to someone after their dog dies and saying, "at least you can afford to buy another one."
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
The conclusion and beginning make different arguments. In the thread title and implied in the opening, she's comparing the disadvantages of her situation with the situations of those in the "fat thread".
quote:She's saying that her good fortune doesn't mean she hasn't suffered very bad crap.
Well, duh. True for everybody in every situation. Nobody can be protected from everything.
quote:which flies in the face of her account of the attempted rape and also in the face of the stories of breast and butt grabbing attractive teen girls face
My point being, every female faces these things. Had she had fewer friends, she may have been raped. Less self-respect/confidence, she may have given in to be cool. And just as humans have a tendency to bully smaller and smaller people down the line, so, too, do less attractive (and just as horny) young males abuse less attractive women. Unattractive women rarely go wholly unassaulted, and often lack the gumption to do something about it
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: And lest you doubt me on that one, ask yourself: when was the last time you saw a fat character in a movie not be either a bad guy or the comic relief? When did a fat guy get the girl, when it wasn't meant to be a joke? We're seeing a trend now when fat women are portrayed semi-positively in the media; this trend has been aggressively pushed by some groups (including Oprah) specifically to "reclaim" the possibility of fat people being attractive.
Not a movie but how about sitcoms such as According to Jim and King of Queens ?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:The conclusion and beginning make different arguments. In the thread title and implied in the opening, she's comparing the disadvantages of her situation with the situations of those in the "fat thread".
The title, which refers to the entire post, says the grass isn't always greener. And it's true. Surely you'll admit that some overweight people have better lives than some attractive people.
Her opening line is "All my life, I’ve been the object of scorn, ridicule, or envy because of the way I look or the things I have. People have been very cruel and ugly to me and have felt completely virtuous and justified doing so."
Unless you're going to doubt her statement, this is true. And note, it doesn't say that this taken alone is worse than what the average overweight person suffers.
quote:My point being, every female faces these things.
It can certainly happen to any female. But it doesn't.
Mrs.M's post wasn't in response to people saying fat people had it tough. It was in response to callous disregard and refusal to take people at face value that they had been hurt terribly for being too thin.
It's not just that her pain has been denied. It's that it's been continually miscast by certain people. And that one type of pain has been used as an excuse for inflicting another type.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:Originally posted by Frisco: The conclusion and beginning make different arguments. In the thread title and implied in the opening, she's comparing the disadvantages of her situation with the situations of those in the "fat thread".
quote:She's saying that her good fortune doesn't mean she hasn't suffered very bad crap.
Well, duh. True for everybody in every situation. Nobody can be protected from everything.
quote:which flies in the face of her account of the attempted rape and also in the face of the stories of breast and butt grabbing attractive teen girls face
My point being, every female faces these things. Had she had fewer friends, she may have been raped. Less self-respect/confidence, she may have given in to be cool. And just as humans have a tendency to bully smaller and smaller people down the line, so, too, do less attractive (and just as horny) young males abuse less attractive women. Unattractive women rarely go wholly unassaulted, and often lack the gumption to do something about it
I was writing out my own response to Dag, but (surprisingly) Eddie said it better than I had. Assuming beautiful women are the only ones assaulted is foolish -- in fact, I'd argue they're the ones with the greatest circles of friends, both women and men seeking favor and offering friendship and protection. If anyone's at risk, it's the less attractive girl seeking desperately to a) have a boyfriend, b) raise her self-esteem, c) fit in, and d) make no enemies. My guess is Mrs. M enjoyed far more protection than most of her uglier friends had, and had (or could have, if she wished it) far more sympathy for and attention paid to her woes than an ugly woman would have.
I think where you're falling short, Dag, is your failure to realize nobody's arguing Mrs. M's had it rough. But it's not because of her beauty, and you seem to tie the two together. It's not a choice between being beautiful and assaulted or ugly and untouched. What Mrs. M's gone through is terrible, but she'd probably have suffered a lot more of it, without nearly as much comfort or care, if she'd been ugly.
Beautiful people can have worse lives than ugly people, yes -- but if they do, it's rarely because they're beautiful. If ugly people have better lives than beautiful people, it's almost certainly not because they're ugly. To draw a comparison between the two and declare them equally difficult lifestyles is asinine.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lalo: If you're ugly, not only will you have relatively little (if any) attention, but if you ever do have a man, it's not unlikely he'll treat you with contempt and constantly try to "trade up," particularly if there's no binding commitment.
You think awfully poorly of your own gender, Lalo. And that and this:
quote: If you were ugly, you'd have to pursue men for any sort of romance. You'd often (usually, even) be unsuccessful, and what few times men did settle for you, you'd have to know you're giving up your first kiss, your virginity, your love to men who have at best uncomfortable hesitance at your advances, and at worst utter contempt for your desperation.
Are both not true for many women and incredibly insulting. Especially since "unattractive" has been linked pretty strongly in these threads with "overweight." Do you really want to tell every overweight married woman on this board that their husband doesn't really love them and is just waiting to trade up?
Luckily, as usual, you went to such extremes that what you said was laughable, but you might want to try thinking about the effect of your words before posting next time. Just for a change.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote: Assuming beautiful women are the only ones assaulted is foolish
Nobody's done this.
quote:I think where you're falling short, Dag, is your failure to realize nobody's arguing Mrs. M's had it rough.
No, where you're falling short is assuming I think you've stated she hasn't had it rough. The fact that you do think she's had it rough is what makes your response so bafflingly callous.
Mrs.M told a painful story of how her looks contributed to some very painful memories. Why, why, why do you feel it necessary to tell her it could be worse?
Do you think she doesn't know that? And, do you think being heavier is the worst thing that could be different in her life?
No, you don't think either of those things. So why respond to a painful story with "at least you're not fat." It's asinine.
quote:But it's not because of her beauty, and you seem to tie the two together.
No, it's you two tying them together, except for the part where her attacker tied them together. Maybe he would have still attacked her had she looked different. But she was told it was because she really wanted it, because of how she looked. When she was 10 years old!
For crying out loud, you two are telling an attempted rape victim she should be grateful she's not fat! Why does the inappropriateness of this need explanation?
quote:it's rarely because they're beautiful.
See, you're tying them together again. Why?
quote:To draw a comparison between the two and declare them equally difficult lifestyles is asinine.
And she didn't do that.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:Originally posted by ElJay:
quote:Originally posted by Lalo: If you're ugly, not only will you have relatively little (if any) attention, but if you ever do have a man, it's not unlikely he'll treat you with contempt and constantly try to "trade up," particularly if there's no binding commitment.
You think awfully poorly of your own gender, Lalo. And that and this:
quote: If you were ugly, you'd have to pursue men for any sort of romance. You'd often (usually, even) be unsuccessful, and what few times men did settle for you, you'd have to know you're giving up your first kiss, your virginity, your love to men who have at best uncomfortable hesitance at your advances, and at worst utter contempt for your desperation.
Are both not true for many women and incredibly insulting. Especially since "unattractive" has been linked pretty strongly in these threads with "overweight." Do you really want to tell every overweight married woman on this board that their husband doesn't really love them and is just waiting to trade up?
Luckily, as usual, you went to such extremes that what you said was laughable, but you might want to try thinking about the effect of your words before posting next time. Just for a change.
I speak only for what I've seen. And I have, consistently, witnessed less attractive women treated with less respect and care than prettier women -- to more than a slight degree, I think many people judge women's worth by their appearance.
But I should clarify, I don't think this is true of couples in love -- my experience is with dating, not marriage, and most of the couples I've witnessed have been toying at affection as a means to sex or companionship. Marriage, I think, is a different matter. I'm all but officially engaged to my girlfriend, and more than a few of our conversations have been wistful hopes for forty years from now, when we're fat and old and in love, and can look back on a life spent together. Once couples get past initial impressions and get to know the person, I'm of the opinion that's worth more than the shallow dating I've witnessed so far.
But I do feel bad for women trapped in the dating world, since I've seen too many exploited for their loneliness and thrown aside. I don't think men suffer the same judging -- in fact, given certain basic qualities such as hygiene, I'm not sure male appearance matters at all relative to personality and humor. Most of the fat guys in high school, provided they were charismatic and likable, had gorgeous girlfriends.
I'm attracted to humor and personality, and I fell in love with my girlfriend for those exact qualities. But many men, particularly around my age, prefer sex to love, and take advantage of women who don't. Often, that's a woman unused to and flattered by attention. My apologies if I've given the wrong impression, but this is a sensitive subject for me -- one of my closest friends gave her virginity to a guy on her prom night because she didn't know if anyone else would ever want her, and never heard from him again, even when she was aborting his child.
I don't like how women are treated by the vast majority of men, and I'm not going to put it in fuzzier terms to appear less pessimistic about people's quality.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Right, but those couples in love started out. . . dating. And plenty of them were already fat when they met their future spouses. So it's not really a "different matter."
I completely agree with you that there's a lot of jerks out there, among males and females both, as well as plenty of people with low self-esteem for them to prey on. But just like we can't say that all obese people are so because they're lazy or all thin people are so because they have an eating disorder, we also can't say that no one can love an ugly woman. Because it's just not true, regardless of beauty being in the eye of the beholder. Harder for them to find love? Sure. But no where near impossible.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee:
quote: Assuming beautiful women are the only ones assaulted is foolish
Nobody's done this.
quote:I think where you're falling short, Dag, is your failure to realize nobody's arguing Mrs. M's had it rough.
No, where you're falling short is assuming I think you've stated she hasn't had it rough. The fact that you do think she's had it rough is what makes your response so bafflingly callous.
Mrs.M told a painful story of how her looks contributed to some very painful memories. Why, why, why do you feel it necessary to tell her it could be worse?
Do you think she doesn't know that? And, do you think being heavier is the worst thing that could be different in her life?
No, you don't think either of those things. So why respond to a painful story with "at least you're not fat." It's asinine.
What? Dag, Mrs. M put her story forward to contrast it against the fat thread -- to prove that it's every bit as difficult to be beautiful as it is to be fat.
quote:The fat discrimination and rights thread brought up some issues for me and I thought they would be more appropriate for a separate thread.
All my life, I’ve been the object of scorn, ridicule, or envy because of the way I look or the things I have.
She's arguing the trials of beauty, not the nightmares of rape. And people are responding to that thesis, not disparaging her nightmarish experiences with sexual assault.
I'm truly sorry she had to suffer an attack -- I don't say that casually; I know of no greater crime, and I wish I could have been there to protect her -- but you're trying to twist her point from beautiful vs. fat to rape vs. fat. If it comes down to the latter, I certainly agree, rape is by far the greater torture -- but that's not the case Mrs. M was arguing, and not the case anyone's disagreeing with.
I submit, as I have many times before in this thread, that being beautiful is, in almost every respect, easier than being ugly. This is what's been put forward, time and time again. Nobody has dismissed rape as a lighter punishment than fat, and if you truly believe that, you haven't been reading any replies on this thread.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I think that when faced with this sort of personal story, with details and specific circumstances, it is remarkably unhelpful and irrelevant to nitpick and say, "It would have been worse if..." when speaking about such hugely important (in terms of human interactions things like physical attractiveness.
It's unhelpful and unnecessary because social interactions aren't like astronomy and physics. You can't just take out this body and remove its gravitational pull, do some very clever mathematics and say, "OK, this is the new orbit of this thing, without this other thing here to interfere."
You can, at best, guess in a ham-fisted way at what would have happened. If Mrs. M's physical appearance had been unattractive, would her experiences have been different? That depends on what her attackers were motivated by, in what degrees, doesn't it? What if, for example, her cousin had hated her for years due to some imagined slight and wanted to dominate her as revenge? Perhaps then her physical appearance would not have made much difference at all.
We can't know one way or the other. I remain firmly convinced that to believe that, in general the problems faced by the wealthy and attractive are as serious as those faced by the poor and ugly is a product of amazing naivete, in particular it is unhelpful and even a little insulting.
Just like it can be easier to predict what 1,000,000,000 people will do than what one person will do. Anyway, I'm rambling. Thanks for sharing your story, Mrs. M. I am happy for you that despite the awful things which have happened to you in the past, you've managed to find happiness in the present.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:Originally posted by ElJay: Right, but those couples in love started out. . . dating. And plenty of them were already fat when they met their future spouses. So it's not really a "different matter."
I completely agree with you that there's a lot of jerks out there, among males and females both, as well as plenty of people with low self-esteem for them to prey on. But just like we can't say that all obese people are so because they're lazy or all thin people are so because they have an eating disorder, we also can't say that no one can love an ugly woman. Because it's just not true, regardless of beauty being in the eye of the beholder. Harder for them to find love? Sure. But no where near impossible.
And I never questioned that. Do you seriously believe I've ever argued that "no one can love an ugly woman"?
I think many less attractive women have fewer options and often lonelier lives than more attractive women, unless they have a particularly interesting personality. I know many men think this, and treat these women disrespectfully, if not with outright contempt, and I think this is a quantifiably more difficult lifestyle than that of a woman with many suitors. Nowhere do I endorse this treatment -- but I do acknowledge it exists, and I'm willing to point to the phenomenon as an example of the more difficult trials of ugliness vs. beauty.
My girlfriend tricked me, actually. She's very pretty, but she was tired of men constantly pursuing her for that -- so she told me she had a skin disorder that would make her hideous by the time she was thirty. If I was going to be with her, I would have to love her despite her looks. I didn't care, and I fell in love with her humor and personality not caring about what she looks like.
It was a lie, but in truth, I wouldn't give a damn if it weren't. I love her for her, not for what she looks like. Please never mistake my opinion this badly again.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Beware the ugliness inside.
Low self-esteem robs both the person and the people who love them. It is insidious.
Blaming someone for their low self-esteem rarely raises their self-esteem. Nor does telling them to fix it.
The only thing better than loving someone despite their flaws is loving them regardless of their flaws.
If I had my life to live over, I'd hope to screw it up just enough to get to exactly where I am anyway. But no more.
If life isn't an adventure, then there simply are no adventures worth the name.
I feel terribly sad to think that someone would miss an opportunity for love because they were holding out for something better. There is nothing better.
Finally, I think some of that is relevant to this thread. As for the rest, forgive me, I just finished watching Rushmore and my perceptions are a little screwy.
Edit to add:
Extra finally: If your wife is craving a slushy, don't waste your time posting about love on a web-based bulletin board. Go get the DARN SLUSHY!!!!
[ July 12, 2006, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: Bob_Scopatz ]
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote: Do you seriously believe I've ever argued that "no one can love an ugly woman"?
It sure sounds like you did:
quote:what few times men did settle for you, you'd have to know you're giving up your first kiss, your virginity, your love to men who have at best uncomfortable hesitance at your advances, and at worst utter contempt for your desperation.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:What? Dag, Mrs. M put her story forward to contrast it against the fat thread -- to prove that it's every bit as difficult to be beautiful as it is to be fat.
Where did she attempt to show it's "every bit as difficult"? Not in the words you've quoted, certainly. Please identify, explicitly, where she made this contention in her opening post.
quote:but you're trying to twist her point from beautiful vs. fat
Her point wasn't "beautiful v. fat." You're doing more than twisting here. Her point was that beautiful does not mean no pain.
In response to some repeated attempts to trivialize the pain felt by two people.
quote:I submit, as I have many times before in this thread, that being beautiful is, in almost every respect, easier than being ugly.
Again, so? You're arguing against stuff that I'm not saying. I'm not sure why, but if you feel you must, do so when you're not quoting me, OK?
I also submit that if all you know about two people is how beautiful they are, you do not know who has a better or happier life.
quote:Nobody has dismissed rape as a lighter punishment than fat, and if you truly believe that, you haven't been reading any replies on this thread.
I read the thread. I responded to a specific post, one that flat out said that Mrs.M's grass is greener than poor unattractive persons'. And not poor unattractive persons who have also been attacked or abused.
That post managed to do the very thing Mrs.M wrote this thread about - to look at a person, see a few attributes, and automatically assume that her problems weren't as serious as an overweight person's.
It's been done repeatedly in this thread.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Dag, that's like saying that winning the lottery isn't in general a good thing because some individual who won the lottery got hit by a car and killed shortly thereafter. His hypothetical death certainly made his lottery winnings less useful to him, but his lottery winnings weren't a factor in his misfortune.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Dag, that's like saying that winning the lottery isn't in general a good thing because some individual who won the lottery got hit by a car and killed shortly thereafter. His hypothetical death certainly made his lottery winnings less useful to him, but his lottery winnings weren't a factor in his misfortune.
Did she say it wasn't a good thing? No. She said it resulted in specific, identifiable pain in her life. She said that it won't protect you from other types of pain.
What you've been doing is akin to going up to the widow of the guy who died and saying, "At least you won the lottery."
And let me be clear on this: Yes, someone whose husband has just died who is also rich is better off than someone whose husband just died but who isn't rich, assuming everything else is the same. That doesn't mean that saying such a thing to that widow wouldn't be an atrociously insensitive thing to do.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote: Do you seriously believe I've ever argued that "no one can love an ugly woman"?
It sure sounds like you did:
quote:what few times men did settle for you, you'd have to know you're giving up your first kiss, your virginity, your love to men who have at best uncomfortable hesitance at your advances, and at worst utter contempt for your desperation.
Actually, I can understand how that can be misinterpreted -- it was poorly written. The point I was trying to convey was that I've witnessed, quite often, men taking advantage of a woman's sweetness and naiveness. No matter how loving they are, women are pretty often used and thrown aside. The above is actually a blow-by-blow summary of several of my friends' experiences, and I have good reason to believe it's not a phenomenon limited to these few women.
My apologies if I really led anyone to believe less attractive women can't be loved. It's not what I was trying to say.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
See, I don't think you think that, Lalo. I think you said that. I think you frequently indulge in hyperbole because you like the way it sounds, and go spouting off crap that you don't really mean without considering what you're actually saying. Hence the last paragraph of my first post addressed to you in this thread:
quote: Luckily, as usual, you went to such extremes that what you said was laughable, but you might want to try thinking about the effect of your words before posting next time. Just for a change.
Added: I wrote this before seeing your last post. I'm glad you realize now how what you said sounded. I don't suppose you'll be apologizing to me for all the crap in your other post?
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
I've come to the conclusion that a person's happiness is pretty much determined by the things that go on inside that person's head and/or mind. The greeness of the grass is in the head of the person perceiving it. Everything else (body, wealth, success, health, etc.) influences it indirectly at most. For that reason, because I don't think there is any way to really know what goes on in someone else's mind, I don't think it makes much sense to speculate who is happier than whom.
And I don't think it is productive; at least in my case it only seems to make me less happy. I think it is better to appreciate the circumstances of others, and to try and figure out how to be happy with any circumstance, whatever it may be, rather than trying to figure out which circumstances you wish you'd have. That's my thought on the matter.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
And a fine thought it is.
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
Yay, Tresopax! Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I think Dag hit it on the head. A lot of people in the other thread were talking like being thin/beautiful was a panacea that would cure everything that was wrong with them. Mrs. M stated more than once that she knew things could have been worse, but that she was tired of people assuming that her life was perfect because of her figure and situation in life.
She was trying to show that there can be a down side to being thin and beautiful that some people refuse to admit, and that being beautiful isn't a cure-all.
I have a female friend who eats like a horse, isn't and is so thin that people she doesn't even know lecture her on anorexia and bulimia. Tell me again how that isn't every bit as hard as what you go through daily, Tom.
Most of the time, Tom, I respect your opinion on things, even when I don't agree with you. You admit that most of what you go through was preventable, and that you just don't make losing weight a high enough priority....then you spend post after post attacking someone who merely says that overweight people aren't the only ones who are judged by their appearance.
After reading your thoughts on this I respect you a lot less...and it has nothing to do with your size or weight.
Kwea
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
quote:then you spend post after post attacking someone who merely says that overweight people aren't the only ones who are judged by their appearance.
If this is all she's saying, then why the thread title and why the comparison to stuff in the fat thread? How can the thread title mean anything other than "You think attractive and privileged people have it better, but they don't."
That's like having someone start a thread about sexual harassment, and having me pipe in with "Well, I know you think women have it bad, but I've personally been treated just as badly, so you can't say men have it any easier."
In both that theoretical discussion and this thread, the conclusion clearly isn't true.
Unless there's some interpretation of the phrase "The grass isn't greener" I'm not familiar with.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I do think that the title was probably incomplete, and would better have read, "The grass isn't always greener."
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:If this is all she's saying, then why the thread title and why the comparison to stuff in the fat thread? How can the thread title mean anything other than "You think attractive and privileged people have it better, but they don't."
Did you read her post? It's one thing to think that's what she's saying just by reading the title. It's another thing to keep thinking that when she's been very explicit about what she is saying.
quote:That's like having someone start a thread about sexual harassment, and having me pipe in with "Well, I know you think women have it bad, but I've personally been treated just as badly, so you can't say men have it any easier."
Frisco, that's a ridiculous comparison. No one "piped in." Tom explicitly ASKED if there was a stigma against being thin. There was some discussion about it that led to Mrs.M wanting to post her specific experiences, and she did so in a new thread.
Clearly, she overestimated Hatrack's civility and empathy.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:I have a female friend who eats like a horse, isn't and is so thin that people she doesn't even know lecture her on anorexia and bulimia. Tell me again how that isn't every bit as hard as what you go through daily, Tom.
It isn't even close to being as hard as what I go through daily. Period.
And I'm speaking here as someone whose wife is very thin, so thin that people have assumed her entire life that she has an eating disorder, that she's practically unable to find clothes anywhere -- especially now that they've actually made Size 0 (for women) bigger to accomodate expanding waistlines. I'm not exactly unfamiliar with the "thin" experience.
I'm saying -- and I'm saying this completely unapologetically -- that thin people, even very thin people, have it far easier than fat people, and especially very fat people.
Can anyone on this thread seriously question that statement? Not just say "Oh, that's a rude thing to observe," but actually claim that it's wrong?
-----
quote:then you spend post after post attacking someone who merely says that overweight people aren't the only ones who are judged by their appearance
This is specifically what I'm not doing. I suspect that it's what a lot of the people inflated with righteous ire here think I'm doing, though.
[ July 13, 2006, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:It isn't even close to being as hard as what I go through daily. Period.
You don't know that, you can only say that for yourself, not for others.
I've said before, I used to work with a woman whose underweight condition contributed directly to her infertility, yet she was unable to gain weight and the doctors were baffled as to why. You going to tell me that being teased and ridiculed is worse than the pain of not being able to have children? You willing to trade Sophie for a thin figure?
You have no idea what some chronically underweight people have been through, it is impossible to just dismiss their pain as if it doesn't matter. Has anyone ever followed you into the bathroom to try and "catch" you throwing up? Told you you were a liar to your face when you denied being anorexic? Questioned our gender because you were so flat chested?
Your' not a woman, you may be married to one but you don't know what it's really like to be an extremely thin woman. Maybe Christy never was teased for her size, obviously she didn't suffer infertility, so perhaps she hasn't had any reason to think her thinness was a problem. But that doesn't mean that every thin woman on earth is like Christy.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:Can anyone on this thread seriously question that statement? Not just say "Oh, that's a rude thing to observe," but actually claim that it's wrong?
Yes, I'm pretty sure they already have.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:You have no idea what some chronically underweight people have been through, it is impossible to just dismiss their pain as if it doesn't matter.
It's worth noting that being so thin that you're sterile or on the immediate verge of death is equivalent to being so fat that you're sterile or on the verge of death. That you can get really, really fat before this happens doesn't mean it doesn't happen; it just means there's more lee-way on the high side of the spectrum. I certainly have an enormous amount of pity for anyone whose biology or eating habits is killing them.
quote:Has anyone ever followed you into the bathroom to try and "catch" you throwing up? Told you you were a liar to your face when you denied being anorexic? Questioned your gender because you were so flat chested?
Nope. But there are "fat-person" equivalents to all of these, and others besides.
Posted by kmbboots (Member # 8576) on :
(from a post on another forum)
Having experienced both the "big and early boob" thing - yes, including the creeps grabbing me in the hallways in middle school (I think the worst perpetrators ended up in prison) - and the fat/unattractive thing I will say that the unattractive thing (for me) is worse. As traumatic as it was to dread walking down the halls when I was 12, I grew out of it and eventually developed a sense of humour to "counter balance" the boobs.
Sitting at a family wedding - dateless again - as I did this weekend, knowing that I am likely to remain alone because only very extraordinary men* find me attractive enough to date, much less marry, is really hard - and only going to get harder as I get older and even less attractive. And to know that even if I were thinner I wouldn't be "pretty".
And I still have to deal with the boob thing.
This is not in any way to say that Ms M has had it easy or to minimize her pain. This is just to compare some my experiences to some of my other experiences.
*then again, I am only attracted to very extraordinary men.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
I just wanted to pop in and let y'all know that I haven't forgotten or abandoned this thread. My mother came to visit yesterday and one of my cousins had a baby and I have Aerin, so I've been consumed by all that. I will reply later and clarify and expand things that I've written. There have been a lot of interesting points made. I really want to thank the people who have written such kind thing about me. Aerin's calling, so until later...
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:eventually developed a sense of humour to "counter balance" the boobs
That must be one dense sense of humor.
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
I'm waiting for that with pleasure, Mrs M. Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:Nope. But there are "fat-person" equivalents to all of these, and others besides.
I don't deny that. But you seem to have made the point that there are no equivalent to fat-person insults and slights. What some of us are trying to say is that there is pain and hurt on both sides, and you cannot make the claim that one is always worse than the other.
I find it funny that I'm defending the ultra thin - I've never been ultra-thin in my life. But I've had a lot of pain and suffering that when people looked at me on the outside, would never have imagined that I would have. I looked like someone that had it all, yet I have been physically abused, been affected by sexual abuse as a child, seen my stepfather hit my brother with a force strong enough to break his nose and no one in my family did anything about it, experienced being thrown against a wall and held there while my stepfather wrapped his hands around my neck and squeezed until I couldn't breathe.
My family from the outside was well off and looked like a "perfect" family and yes, at the time I was trim and healthy. Didn't stop me from suffering.
Saying you have it worse than others simply because you're heavy is to me, the height of self-centeredness. You have no idea how many people would gladly trade carrying around some extra pounds for the type of pain they've experienced. And saying to me "Well, hey at least when your stepfather was beating you and verbally abusing you you weren't fat" shows nothing but insensitivity and ignorance for what people in abuse situations really go through.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Saying you have it worse than others simply because you're heavy is to me, the height of self-centeredness.
Tom has never said that. What he's said, time and time again, is that on the whole, the difficulties that come from being heavy are worse than the difficult that come from being thin.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
And, more appropriately to this thread, the difficulties that come from being ugly are worse than the difficulties that come from being attractive.
And that since fat = unattractive in prevaling society, it's kind of a double-whammy.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
quote:Did you read her post? It's one thing to think that's what she's saying just by reading the title. It's another thing to keep thinking that when she's been very explicit about what she is saying.
I did read her post and I don't think you understand what I'm saying.
One person's worse-than-normal experience if being privileged and not unattractive does not provide any sort of real evidence that the grass isn't greener.
My point is that, all else being equal, the disadvantages of being poor and/or unattractive are far worse than the troubles of the opposite.
I'm definitely not saying that no single attractive privileged person can have it worse than their less well off counterparts; but in their case, they're a small patch of brown in a lawn full of green.
quote:That's like having someone start a thread about sexual harassment, and having me pipe in with "Well, I know you think women have it bad, but I've personally been treated just as badly, so you can't say men have it any easier." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Frisco, that's a ridiculous comparison. No one "piped in." Tom explicitly ASKED if there was a stigma against being thin. There was some discussion about it that led to Mrs.M wanting to post her specific experiences, and she did so in a new thread.
How is that ridiculous? Someone started a thread about being fat. Mrs. M then started a counter thread, giving her own experience (with the worst offenses being those that happen to the attractive and unattractive alike) and claiming that the grass isn't greener on her side.
Yes, bad things happen to the attractive and rich. Duh. Double duh. That doesn't make the grass on the whole lawn pale.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
All the 'studies' out there that show that good looking people have it better in every possible way than ugly people have some critical flaws.
1. First, there are numerous studies which have found the obvious, that looks make a far bigger difference for women than men. Ugly men, are very nearly as likely to be successful both professionally and socially as good looking men. The wage differential for obesity, for example, exists only among white women.
2. Good looks are a double edged sword for women. The studies I've seen compare people who have the same education and the same experience. What most of them fail to control for, is that how good looks influence your chances of being well educated. Good looking girls generally marry younger, have their first child at a younger age and are generally less likely to attend or complete a college education. All of those things, lead to lower incomes not higher.
Once you've made it into a professional career as a woman, you have to deal with the reality that no matter what else you do you will always be judged on your looks in a way that men aren't. When I was a graduate student, the first woman was elected to be president of the American Chemical Society and her picture was published on the front of C and E News. Every graduate student who saw her picture in my presence (both male and female), commented that she was ugly. I have never seen similar comments made about any male scientist and yet they are made routinely about unattractive female scientists and engineers.
On the flip side, if you happen to be an attractive sucessful professional woman, there will always be a group who discount all of your achievements assume that you used your good looks to get favors from the men in power.
I wasn't popular with the boys when I was a teenager. I wasn't happy about it at the time, but now that I'm a mature woman I consider it one of the best things that happened to me. If I had been really popular with the boys, it is very unlikely that I would have done most of things I've done. Among the women I know who are over 30, there is an overwhelming agreement that being good looking as a teenager, being very popular with teenage boys and getting large breasts at a young age are in the long term, a big disadvantage. I'm curious to know how many of the mature women here at hatrack share that opinion. It's clear the Mrs. M does.
All the women over 30 I know who have large breasts, hate it. They hate being oogled by men, they hate having to wear heavy duty bras for support, they hate the back problems, and so on. If so many women think having big boobs is a disadvantage, it is unfair tell them that their wrong. That they are just whiners who are complaining about something that is really positive.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:How is that ridiculous? Someone started a thread about being fat. Mrs. M then started a counter thread, giving her own experience (with the worst offenses being those that happen to the attractive and unattractive alike) and claiming that the grass isn't greener on her side.
Would you please read what people write?
Once again:
Tom asked if thin people were stigmatized in the other thread. Do you get that? Would you please acknowledge it if you do?
Mrs.M didn't start a counter thread. SHE ANSWERED SOMEONE'S QUESTION in that other thread. Then the conversation moved on to the point where Mrs.M was going to relate her experience - in response to repeated expressions of disbelief by Tom to the answers given TO HIS REQUEST. She did so in a new thread out of courtesy to the other thread.
I'll make your hypothetical more accurate for you:
quote:That's like having someone start a thread about sexual harassment, someone asking in that thread if men go through anything similar, having two people answer the questions, having someone scoff and ask for more detail, having someone write a very personal post about the similar harm encountered, and then having two jokers pipe in and say, "How dare you!"
You chose the words you used in your hypo. You made the hypo sound like Mrs.M stormed in unprompted and related painful experiences in order to minimize others' pain.
She didn't. She shared at the request of a fellow Hatracker. And you crapped all over that.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:How is that ridiculous? Someone started a thread about being fat. Mrs. M then started a counter thread, giving her own experience (with the worst offenses being those that happen to the attractive and unattractive alike) and claiming that the grass isn't greener on her side.
Yes, bad things happen to the attractive and rich. Duh. Double duh. That doesn't make the grass on the whole lawn pale.
I think that you and Tom and Lalo and several others have completely missed the point Mrs. M was trying to make.
The way I understand her post, what she is saying first is that many people consider it to be terrific to be a teenage girl with a hot figure. She was one, and found it to be a source of harrasment. Furthermore, contrary to popular opinion, being good looking hasn't made her life the cake walk the many here are implying.
So as I see it, Mrs. M has told us some specific problems she experienced as a young woman because she had a 'hot figure'. She has also told you enough about the rest of her life for it to be clear that she hasn't had special advantages because of her looks. Yet some of you continue to insist that she has indeed has more advantages because of her looks than disadvantages and that she is simple ingrateful.
If I understood her correctly, when they repeatedly showed pictures of her 'hot rack' in high school, she was not just thinking why is that all they notice. She felt the same shame and embarassment that a fat guy might have felt if they'd repeatedly showed pictures of his butt crack. Being viewed as a slut is not a positive thing. It is, for many people, just as bad as being viewed as ugly.
And perhaps the worst part of Mrs. M's experience, is that so many people consider it acceptable to harass people for being thin, or large breasted whereas nearly everyone understands that its rude to make fun of someone for being fat.
Since Mrs. M. has been so detailed and specific, please do the same. Tell me exactly what advantages Mrs. M. has had as a result of her 'hot rack' which so thoroughly outway the humiliation and harassment she received as a young women directly because of her looks.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I am wondering, how many unattractive/heavy people try to alter their appearance to be more attractive compared to how many attractive/attractively thin people try to alter their appearance to be less attractive?
What Mrs. M and others here have said makes sense about the problems that come with attractiveness, but I weigh in in the belief that the grass is still greeneer on the other side, even if it isn't as much greener as the unattractive/heavy may fantasize. What has been shared here is good for perspective: it is greener, but it probably isn't quite as green as you thought. Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
Why can't we agree that both are unfortunate, and stop debating which is worse. The view from both sides is subjective and cannot be proven.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by TheHumanTarget: Why can't we agree that both are unfortunate, and stop debating which is worse. The view from both sides is subjective and cannot be proven.
This debate started when Tom asked
quote:IS there a stigma against the excessively thin? I know there's some jealousy, and I know people who are assumed to be bulimic are of course the subject of tongue-wagging, but I don't otherwise see it.
I responded that I had experienced harasment for being excessively thin, after which Tom demanded details because he didn't believe it. I gave him details, and he still insists that it doesn't count. Then Mrs. M. made a similar report, and Tom responded that her experiences don't count either. It's quite frankly very insulting.
The fact of the matter is that Tom, Lalo, Frisco and some of the others on this board simply can't imagine that anyone could be honestly ashamed and embarrassed about being excessively thin or excessively buxom the way they are about being excessively fat. They simply can't believe that having children point at you in public saying 'that Lady looks like a skeleton' might just be as humiliating as having children single you out for being fat.
Well, I've never been singled out for being excessively fat so I can't know for certain, but I do know without any question that when I've been hurt by ridicule for being excessively thin I wasn't failing to be grateful for something that's overwhelming positive as Tom has claimed.
I think that every adult in America understands that its rude to ridicule fat people to their face. In the circles I live in, it is absolute taboo comment on a fat woman's weight. On the other hand, nearly everyone felt free to tell me and my husband that I'd be better looking if I gained weight. You people just don't get it.
[ July 13, 2006, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:She has also told you enough about the rest of her life for it to be clear that she hasn't had special advantages because of her looks.
No, she has not. To be honest, based on what she's written, I've actually concluded that she hasn't appreciated the special advantages conferred upon her because of her looks.
quote: The fact of the matter is that Tom, Lalo, Frisco and some of the others on this board simply can't imagine that anyone could be honestly ashamed and embarrassed about being excessively thin or excessively buxom the way they are about being excessively fat.
No. I can imagine that anyone can be honestly ashamed and embarrassed about anything. But some people have more concrete reasons than others.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Tom, why ask a question you're not going to accept the answer to?
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:No, she has not. To be honest, based on what she's written, I've actually concluded that she hasn't appreciated the special advantages conferred upon her because of her looks.
And what exactly are these advantages that Mrs. M. has gained because of her looks. No more generalities. I want specific details. What advantages has Mrs. M enjoyed because she of her looks.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
That question is ironic on at least two levels.
----
Seriously, it's because I was curious how people perceived this "stigma." And the incidents described to me, while certainly painful, are still exactly the sort of incidents I initially acknowledged in the first place: jealousy, resentment, misunderstanding, etc.
That's not a stigma. Heck, smart people face more of a universal "stigma" than that.
The most legitimate argument for "stigma" that I've seen is that thin people don't feel that people leap to their defense as readily when they're insulted. And that's true, and I can understand why it'd feel painful. But given that this is -- in my opinion -- precisely because there's no widespread stigma against thin people, and thus little perceived need for emotional protection for thin people, it seems more like evidence in the other direction.
--------
quote:What advantages has Mrs. M enjoyed because she of her looks.
Not having known her -- ever -- I'm hardly qualified to say. Out of interest, which specific advantages have I enjoyed by being born white? I can give you specific examples of when I, as a white person living in Gary, was "stigmatized." Would those be sufficient to prove that I've never received any advantages from my skin color?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Tom, you do that a lot. You ask a question that will prompt a personal answer, and then you dismiss the experiences entirely. I've come to wonder if, when you're asking questions, you do it just to pretend to be open to other possible viewpoints. I think that if you have already settled on an answer, it isn't conversationally fair to ask the question.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
No. I AM open to other viewpoints, and can in fact be convinced by things that are persuasive enough.
I just reserve the right to dismiss people's answers as either irrelevant, unconvincing, or incomplete. I don't consider any one individual's personal life story, told from their perspective, to be authoritative or even necessarily accurate in its entirety.
If they're offended by that, it's entirely not my problem. I wouldn't expect anyone to hear one of my anecdotes and say, "Oh, wow! Just because Tom had bad experience X, I'm clearly wrong about the likelihood and prevalence of phenomenon Y." If we're using words like "stigma," words that speak to a broader set of data, single points of experience are useful for emotional reference but are not the end of the conversation.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
You ask for experiences, then dismiss those experiences. You dismiss them not only as not representative of the norm, but you even discount that they happened as the person says they did. That means the original question is disingenuous.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
To be fair Tom, You have stated that you have concluded that Mrs. M does not appreciate the advantages she has obtained because of her looks. If you have made such a conclusion, despite her protestations to the opposite then you have some obligation to either defend your conclusion. Your claim was rather specific to Mrs. M, so your defense needs to be rather specific to her as well.
I have never claimed that you personally have an advantages from being a white male. I freely admit that is some cases, and perhaps yours could be one, it might be a disadvantage to be a white male even though statistically this is unlikely. Your analogy lack substance.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:If we're using words like "stigma," words that speak to a broader set of data, single points of experience are useful for emotional reference but are not the end of the conversation.
Tom, you've stated that your weight is something you could fix if you had time. (Note, I'm not trying to generalize this, but Tom has stated this is true for him: "In order to lose weight, I've discovered that I need to seriously -- not just casually -- work out for at least half an hour a day, or an hour every two days.")
If it's so damn bad, why haven't you started exercising every day? Because it's not so bad that you don't think the benefits of the other ways you spend your time outweigh the negatives of your weight. You, if what you say is true, have chosen to receive those benefits at the cost of the downsides of being overweight.
Therefore, being overweight isn't a net negative for you. Whatever that amount of stigma is, it's not enough to cause you to reallocate your time.
I'm sure you wish you could have those positives without facing the negatives from your weight. But that doesn't change the fact that you get an extra half hour a day that someone who exercises to stay thin doesn't because of your decision.
[ July 13, 2006, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by amira tharani (Member # 182) on :
The thing is, you can look at someone's life from the outside and assume that because they are beautiful, or talented, or wealthy, or seem to have a stable home life, they ought to be happy, and it's easy to condemn them for not being so. But from the inside, it isn't always like that.
My own experiences this year have really brought this home to me. From the outside, I have a lot of advantages, which I do appreciate: I have loving parents, I've achieved academic success, I have good friends, a job that challenges me, and I'm getting married soon. And yet, I was diagnosed with depression this year - this was partly to do with my struggles in my first year of teaching, but mostly to do with how I interpret what happens to me. There is neither a contradiction nor a moral weakness in having all these advantages and not being happy. Just as I would no longer blame myself for being depressed in spite of all the good things in my life, so I could no longer blame others for this.
However, I do see it as something of a moral weakness to be insensitive to or dismissive of others' pain. It's clear that Mrs M's feelings are genuine. She was genuinely uncomfortable and unhappy about some of the things that you see as advantages. That's her perspective, and since she has privileged access to her feelings, we from the outside cannot claim that she did not in fact feel those things that she says she did.
Not only that, but she has clearly stated on this thread that at least some of those feelings of unhappiness have been caused by the dismissive attitude that others have had to her (eg her friends telling her that she shouldn't complain about anything because she has a husband). The response from some people on this thread has been to display precisely that attitude, which I can't help but feel is thoughtless at best, and malicious at worst. I know that we all have the right to air our views, and that that's part of what Hatrack is about, but on these very personal topics I think it would help if people really stopped and thought about how their comments might affect others.
I do agree, though, that the fact that Mrs M had those feelings and experiences does not entitle anyone to draw general conclusions about the experience of all beautiful, wealthy and talented people. Just because one person responds in a certain way to an experience, does not mean that everyone else will respond in the same way to the same experience. For example, in my school there are teachers who have had more severe issues with behaviour management than I have, and who have been on the receiving end of more unpleasant behaviour from the students, but for whatever reason it doesn't seem to affect them as profoundly or as negatively as it affects me (at least, not from what I can see, or from what they say about it). It therefore seems unreasonable to assume that all fat people or all thin people will respond in the same way to comments about their looks.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:You dismiss them not only as not representative of the norm, but you even discount that they happened as the person says they did. That means the original question is disingenuous.
Only if I have no intention of ever accepting their account. And believe it or not, I take most things people say at face value. The more incredible I consider the claim, of course -- be it "All my plants have doubled in size since I started salting them" or "I talk to God regularly and get answers" -- the higher my standard of evidence. I didn't realize you had bought into stephen's whole microcluster bit, or had been convinced that you too should be eating heavy metals to protect your organs in the same way he had experienced.
--------
quote: Therefore, being overweight isn't a net negative for you. Whatever that amount of stigma is, it's not enough to cause you to reallocate your time.
Nor have I ever said it should be. I'm not sure why this is relevant.
--------------
quote:you can look at someone's life from the outside and assume that because they are beautiful, or talented, or wealthy, or seem to have a stable home life, they ought to be happy, and it's easy to condemn them for not being so.
I can't see a single instance of that on this thread, actually. I maintain that most of the people with their dander up are shadowboxing.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I don't believe you, not when it comes to the answers you get to questions you ask. The evidence is to the contrary.
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
I think Tom's got valid points all around.
My problem with Mrs. M's post is that I know plenty of girls who were gorgeous/ugly and large-breasted in middle/high school that loved it. They got positive and negative attention, but much more positive than negative.
I think whatever negativity Mrs. M drew from being large breasted and attractive has more to do with her attitude and self-esteem than society's assumptions about whatever.
In the argument of which-is-worse, there's no question that it's better to be attractive than unattractive. It's also better to be thin than fat. And when it comes to breasts, women want MEDIUM sized breasts--not too small, not too big. Thus, having a flat chest and having a "back-problems" chest are equally bad from what I've heard.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Nor have I ever said it should be. I'm not sure why this is relevant.
Because, when deciding that Mrs.M's problems are really just "jealousy, resentment, misunderstanding," remember that anyone judging your losses knows that, however bad they may be, they're not worse than an extra half hour commute.
And, frankly, Mrs.M's problems sound a bit worse than that to me, your assurances that they're not really that bad to the contrary.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
You'd be amazed how many answers I get that you don't snark and whine about, Katie. I conclude that you only snark about the ones you're upset that I didn't accept.
------
quote:remember that anyone judging your losses knows that, however bad they may be, they're not worse than an extra half hour commute
That's not entirely fair, Dag. You're assuming that people expense out their lives -- and free time -- logically. Tell me again how you could be spending your free time helping young orphans instead of surfing the Web. That kind of calculus happens at an irrational level, or else no one would ever eat a McDonald's burger.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:My problem with Mrs. M's post is that I know plenty of girls who were gorgeous/ugly and large-breasted in middle/high school that loved it. They got positive and negative attention, but much more positive than negative.
Why is that a problem with her post? Did she say that there was nobody who liked being large-breasted? No.
She said:
quote:All my life, I’ve been the object of scorn, ridicule, or envy because of the way I look or the things I have. People have been very cruel and ugly to me and have felt completely virtuous and justified doing so. Frankly, I’m getting tired of it.
<paragraphs of examples>
My point is this: neither my looks nor my husband nor my Ivy League education has protected me from misfortune. My figure didn’t make my father not abuse then abandon me. My Ivy League education didn’t keep my mother from having a brain tumor. My marriage didn’t make me not be infertile or save the 3 babies I lost or keep Aerin from being a micropreemie. I would trade everything I am or have so that Aerin could be healthy. Everyone has sorrow and adversity in their lives and everyone is entitled to sympathy and compassion – even people who have things you think you want.
Which part isn't true?
quote:You're assuming that people expense out their lives -- and free time -- logically. Tell me again how you could be spending your free time helping young orphans instead of surfing the Web. That kind of calculus happens at an irrational level, or else no one would ever eat a McDonald's burger.
Good. I'm glad you get that.
Now stop trying to sort out Mrs.M's pain logically and show some damn sympathy.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
The cases I've noticed are already too many.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: Now stop trying to sort out Mrs.M's pain logically and show some damn sympathy.
Is that the purpose of this thread? To demonstrate that we're all capable of sympathy?
quote:The cases I've noticed are already too many.
One person a year who dies because of toast is too many. I would not conclude that toast is a deadly killer.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Is that the purpose of this thread? To demonstrate that we're all capable of sympathy?
What was the purpose of your first post in this thread, Tom? Especially, "But yours, even by the spoiled standards of the people on this forum, is not a story of woe."
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Mainly, to head off what I felt was an attempt to draw an equivalence between the misfortunes of the attractive and the misfortunes of the unattractive in a way that, by using personal anecdotes, could not avoid becoming personal unless the alternate route -- that of the sacrosanct -- were taken. And while I understand people have a tendency to treat all personal pain as sacrosanct, I consider that tendency regrettable, too. So I ripped off that scab and didn't look back.
I was snarkier in my initial post than Mrs. M deserved, both because I originally missed some elements of her first post and because she's got a personality type that, at least online, grates on me enormously. But the point of my initial question -- whether there's any evidence of a widespread stigma against thin people in our society -- was, I felt, largely unaddressed by her personal anecdotes, and I was inadequate to the task of explaining why this was so without also appearing to incautious readers to "dismiss" those anecdotes.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Treating pain as sacrosanct isn't the same as not being callous.
You asked if there was stigma. After someone said she had faced it, you asked her to detail her personal experiences. You made a point of expressing concern about it being too personal. If personal anecdotes are meaningless to you, don't ask someone to make themselves publicly vulnerable to provide them - especially when you know in advance the enormity of what you're asking.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I wonder if people are working off of different definitions of "widespread stigma"?
AJ
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
It's not that personal anecdotes are meaningless, Dag. It's that the personal anecdotes in question don't demonstrate anything resembling a societal stigma. Had she been refused a role in a school play because she was too thin to be a believable female lead, sure. Had she lost a job because her employers didn't want a thin person representing their agency, sure. Schoolyard teasing and jealous sniping isn't -- and I said this on the other thread -- the kind of thing I was asking for more details about.
Perhaps it's the definition of the word "stigma" that I'm using. Or perhaps people don't understand why a widespread stigma is worse than having random, isolated people feel jealous of you.
I don't know how often I have to repeat this before it's understood.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote: Is that the purpose of this thread? To demonstrate that we're all capable of sympathy?
Isn't that what you want with all your complaints about being fat, Tom?
Or are YOU the only one with a patent on pain?
The one thing that this thread has shown is that overweight people can be ever bit a self-centered and judgmental as other people can be.
Mores the pity.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Originally posted by TomDavidson: [QB]
quote: It isn't even close to being as hard as what I go through daily. Period.
And I'm speaking here as someone whose wife is very thin, so thin that people have assumed her entire life that she has an eating disorder, that she's practically unable to find clothes anywhere -- especially now that they've actually made Size 0 (for women) bigger to accomodate expanding waistlines. I'm not exactly unfamiliar with the "thin" experience.
I'm saying -- and I'm saying this completely unapologetically -- that thin people, even very thin people, have it far easier than fat people, and especially very fat people.
Can anyone on this thread seriously question that statement? Not just say "Oh, that's a rude thing to observe," but actually claim that it's wrong?
I do. I have little pity for someone who admits he chooses not to change his lifestyle but then complains about how hard his life is because of his weight. I have a lot more pity for the few people who actually DO have a thyroid disorder (rather than the many who claim to have one), like my aunt, and gain weight DESPITE lifestyle changes.
Same goes for very thin people, at least those who are unable to gain weight and are at the point where it is potentially dangerous. The ones who constantly being lectured over nd over again about how they are setting bad example for others, just because of the way they look.
That sounds a lot like some of the comments I heard about overweight people, Tom, but I guess you just don't see it that way.
I realized you were a big guy when I met you, Tom, but it didn't mean that I wasn't going to give you a chance, or that I thought less of you. I realize that some people might, but that is their problem....and it is a problem that everyone has experienced at one time or another. We have ALL been judged by appearance at some point in our lives, and unfairly.
I don't have to like everything about a person to like them, or consider them a friend. Or even more. What matters is that their physical condition is only one part of who they are, and that we all have flaws.
But I have little or no respect for someone who thinks they have the right to dismiss everyone elses pain and suffering, just because they aren't overweight.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Isn't that what you want with all your complaints about being fat, Tom?
Amazingly, no. In fact, I don't recall having once -- on any thread -- asked for sympathy for my weight, or requested (as was the original topic) that fat people be granted some sort of special status, etc.
In fact, where I have commented on it, I've said that the worst thing about the stigma against the fat is that it's almost certainly justifiable, and perhaps even useful.
Like I've said, the people arguing on this thread are protesting some imaginary, shadow version of me who's been saying the things they want to have not wanted to hear. As an example, please indicate where I've "dismissed" the pain and suffering of people who aren't overweight.
You're batting at a straw man.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:I don't know how often I have to repeat this before it's understood.
Until you realize that you basically set up Mrs.M and Rabbit and then played gotcha with them. This isn't about you scoring points in a discussion.
Go back and reread Mrs.M's post. She's very specific about what she's saying. She made two points, I quoted them right above on this page.
Sure, it was in response to your use of the word stigma. But it's clear - absolutely clear - that she's making a specific, limited point. She even moved it to a different thread to take it out of the discussion that triggered it.
Let me go back to this post of yours:
quote:Is that the purpose of this thread? To demonstrate that we're all capable of sympathy?
You made the purpose of this thread into something it wasn't. You defined the terms of the discussion and twisted what was said in a different thread into a response to your particular framing of the issue.
Mrs.M's purpose seemed pretty clearly to be 1) recount several painful experiences linked by things largely considered - even by Mrs.M - to be good fortune, and 2) state that there are troubles unrelated to wealth and attractiveness.
You were dismissive - see below - in the service of your point - one not being contested by this personal revelation.
quote:You're batting at a straw man.
No, you're living in denial. See "schoolyard teasing and jealous sniping." See reply #1 of this thread, and not just the bits you left out. See your response to Rabbit's recount of her experiences.
It's not just that you say one set of problems are worse. It's that, to do this, you continually recast the others' description of their problems in terms specifically chosen to trivialize them.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: Mrs.M's purpose seemed pretty clearly to be 1) recount several painful experiences linked by things largely considered - even by Mrs.M - to be good fortune, and 2) state that there are troubles unrelated to wealth and attractiveness.
If I had felt that this were her thesis, and had not felt that her thread were instead an attempt to answer my question, I wouldn't have posted on it at all. I basically said as much in my first post on this thread. I don't, in general, post in sympathy or "this is my life" threads at all, and I would have been completely uninterested in a thread that boiled down to "even people with advantages have problems;" it's a rare day I even post in a congratulations thread. In general, when I feel it's necessary, people get emails.
If I misunderstood the purpose of this thread, and it was not an attempt to answer my question regarding stigma, then I'm glad that the other posters here who've written to affirm Mrs. M's emotions have done so.
quote:It's that, to do this, you continually recast the others' description of their problems in terms specifically chosen to trivialize them.
No, not "trivialize." I'm attempting to identify motive, which is specifically relevant to stigma. If someone is teasing you because you're a kid and you're different, it doesn't particularly matter in which way you're different. If someone is rude to you because you're an adult and they're jealous of you, that's specifically a different sort of treatment than if they disapprove of you.
I don't mean to make value judgements on these things, except to point out the relative severity of an actual stigma as opposed to poor treatment based on these other motivations.
And this isn't the only time I've said this, either.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Except they're inaccurate summarizations. They clearly do not adequately summarize either Rabbit's or Mrs.M's experience.
You're purpose is immaterial to the fact that you're not being accurate and the inaccuracy is trivializing.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:
quote:You're batting at a straw man.
No, you're living in denial
It really has appeared to me that an awful lot of the of the posts leveled against Tom have argued against things which Tom didn't actually say.
I don't remember any of yours being that way though.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: You're purpose is immaterial to the fact that you're not being accurate and the inaccuracy is trivializing.
Except that I think I AM being accurate, of course, or else I can't imagine how we would've gotten into this conversation in the first place.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote: If someone is teasing you because you're a kid and you're different, it doesn't particularly matter in which way you're different.
Which was one of my points for the get go.
I read her thread as a way of pointing out how people tend to dismiss others pain just because of their attractiveness, and belittle their achievements.
To point out that even some of the very things seen by others as advantages can cause pain and raise issues that last a lifetime.
I feel this to be as much, if not more, of a problem as the stigma attached to being overweight. If an overweight person is motivated to lose weight, it results in something good.
What does the other set of prejudices cause other than pain and insecurity?
I know a lot of people treat overweight people unfairly. I am NOT saying that that is right, or that they have an easy time of it. I know they don't most of the time.
But there are a lot of reasons for that that are justified. I have sat next to a person on a plane who was so overweight that he really did take up all of his seat and most of mine. He also smelled horrible.
I didn't care WHY he smelled, or why he was so overweight....I just wanted to be able to sit down in the seat I had payed for, and not gag.
Not everyone who is overweight has poor hygiene, or is that overweight. Not every person who smells is overweight.
But I have played in a dart league against a guy who was 400 lbs, and when he came out of the bathroom he reeked of feces so bad that I had to leave the area.
I don't care why he was so large that he couldn't wipe his own butt, I just didn't want to play darts anymore. Not there.
And I refuse to be ashamed of that.
I judge people on who they are, and how they act around me. Weight is a small part of that, but it is a part. So is physical appearance, and cleanliness. However, no one has ever said that I have to agree with every decision my friends make in order to be friends with them. I don't care how much someone weighs as long as they can keep up with me....and since I am not so physical that I go mountain climbing or kayacking all the time, weight usually isn't a factor.
I also wouldn't ask Lance Armstrong to bike with me. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Except that I think I AM being accurate, of course, or else I can't imagine how we would've gotten into this conversation in the first place.
Well, Tom, you consistently leave out the physical stuff when you give what, in context, seem to be intended as comprehensive summaries: the groping which at least one person mentioned and the justification of the attempted rape based on Mrs.M's appearance supposedly meaning that she wants to be forced to have sex.
It's not just the fact that someone tried to rape her - something that happens to people who are not attractive, too. It's the very specific additional harm of trying to make the victim think she deserves to be raped and tying that dessert to an attribute that others then commented on relentlessly for the next 8 years.
That's not mere teasing and jealousy. That's being constantly reminded that you deserve to be raped because you're stacked.
Even without the rape, I don't think being constantly referred to as slutty can possibly qualify as mere teasing. It is a stigma - one which you might not consider bad, but is probably significantly more painful to an observant Jew.
quote:
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:
quote:You're batting at a straw man.
No, you're living in denial
It really has appeared to me that an awful lot of the of the posts leveled against Tom have argued against things which Tom didn't actually say.
I don't remember any of yours being that way though.
MPH, I'm not sure what you meant here. I can see this as either a compliment (that I haven't attacked things Tom didn't say) or as mild chastisement that this post is attacking something Tom didn't say, in contrast to earlier posts of mine which didn't.
(And I won't be offended either way - my mind is just flipping between both interpretations and I can't settle on one.)
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote: Which was one of my points for the get go.
*whisper* This is why I haven't been arguing with you, Kwea, except to point out that whomever you're arguing with, it isn't me.
quote:If an overweight person is motivated to lose weight, it results in something good. What does the other set of prejudices cause other than pain and insecurity?
Well, assuming that being "excessively" thin is also a health risk....
--------
quote: That's being constantly reminded that you deserve to be raped because you're stacked.
There's something I'd like to say in reply to this, but it really is more judgemental and pop-psychy than I'm comfortable being in public. If you can't guess what it is, please drop me a line and I'll elaborate on my thinking.
[ July 13, 2006, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:MPH, I'm not sure what you meant here. I can see this as either a compliment (that I haven't attacked things Tom didn't say) or as mild chastisement that this post is attacking something Tom didn't say, in contrast to earlier posts of mine which didn't.
For several pages, I've been thinking to myself that there's a lot of fighting against straw men, with people getting mat at Tom for saying things that I can't see that he said. I've almost written a couple of posts saying so.
So when Tom said "You [guys] are batting at straw men", I posted to say that, at least to one other person, it does appear that way.
Then I realized that it could be read as "You [, Dagonee,] are batting at straw men," and I felt the need to say that I hadn't noticed that being the case.
So, it's a mild compliment toward you (I haven't noticed you doing this), and a mild chastizement at others (who I have noticed).
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Tom, I think you implied in some of your earlier posts some of what I was saying. I did notice that you cleared some of that up in later posts, and if I was misinterpeting you I am sorry.
You WERE very dismissive of a lot of Mrs. M had to say, though, and I don't feel it was well done at all. I don't know if you realized HOW dismissve and insensitive you were being, but I think you do.
It seemed deliberate, at least to me, and I think you admitted it several times as well.
Being excessivly thin IS a heath risk, and being enderweight places you at risk for a great many diseases,and mnakes recovery from seroius diseases problematic at beast.
Also, most of the people I know who were underweight like this had already tried to gain weight but were unable to. My mother in law lost 65 lbs in 4 weeks, and was unable to keep food down at all. They couldn't find out what was wrong, and nothing worked. Aftr she has surgery, and almost died, people actually had the nerve to say she shoudl be GLAD it happened, as she was thinner than she had been in years.
True, it was a medical condition, but I have known people who would have given almost anyting to gain another 20 lbs.
I know it is hard to sympatise with them, but trust me, it sucked.
One of them lost a baby because of it, or at least partially because of it. Perhaps that is why I reacted so strongly to this, because I have seen the pain it can bring. I realize this is an extreme, but so is the 400 lb man. Most obese people aren't THAT obese....he was only about 5'7'' tall.
Posted by Tresopax (Member # 1063) on :
quote:In the argument of which-is-worse, there's no question that it's better to be attractive than unattractive. It's also better to be thin than fat. And when it comes to breasts, women want MEDIUM sized breasts--not too small, not too big. Thus, having a flat chest and having a "back-problems" chest are equally bad from what I've heard.
All of these things are very much in question. I have met people whose attractiveness has caused them plenty of trouble - both from unwanted attention and from it's capacity to distort one's personality. It is not unreasonable to think unattractive people end up better off, or could end up better off if they approached it correctly. I, for one, have found the correlation between physical attractiveness and happiness to be pretty weak in the people I know.
This is especially true when you consider the impact across time of certain things. Attractive people tend to not remain attractive their whole lives, for instance, and seem to take it harder when they lose that quality. (And if you extend that argument to the afterlife, consider that Christians believe that the most troubled in this world will benefit in the afterlife. Eastern religions have some similar ideas.)
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Christians believe that the most troubled in this world will benefit in the afterlife.
Christians believe that?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
MPH, thanks for the clarification. In retrospect, that's crystal clear. Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote:I think that every adult in America understands that its rude to ridicule fat people to their face. In the circles I live in, it is absolute taboo comment on a fat woman's weight. On the other hand, nearly everyone felt free to tell me and my husband that I'd be better looking if I gained weight.
They may know it, but it sure doesn't stop them. Or maybe it's just Canada, I don't know. I had an awful lot of people lecture me about being fat (try this diet, this exercise, you need discipline, don't you know you can have a heart attack, your cholesterol is too high!) or call me names or yell other insults at me because I was fat. Knowing something is wrong and refraining from doing it are two very different things.
quote:Thus, having a flat chest and having a "back-problems" chest are equally bad from what I've heard.
I could argue about the difficulty, nay, impossibility, of finding bras that are, oh, say 32DDD or 38DDD or such. I could argue about how expensive they are once you find them ($75 and up - I once paid $135 for a bra that only sort of fitted because it was the closest I could find).
In all honesty, I have friends who are so flat they don't have any kind of landscaping on their chest at all, and they've shared their pain with me, and even though we're at opposite ends of the extreme, the experiences were pretty similar in some ways. Self-image problems, clothes not fitting properly, stressing about attractiveness to men, the desire for augmentation/reduction surgery...
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:Attractive people tend to not remain attractive their whole lives, for instance, and seem to take it harder when they lose that quality.
Harder than people who were never attractive at all, you mean? So you're basically admitting up front that there is a merit to being attractive that, when lost, is recognizable as a cost?
Posted by Sharpie (Member # 482) on :
"Aftr she has surgery, and almost died, people actually had the nerve to say she shoudl be GLAD it happened, as she was thinner than she had been in years."
See, this kind of sounds like it supports the idea that being fat is the worst fate ever in society's eyes. "You had surgery and almost died, but be glad! You are less fat!"
(Btw, sorry, I don't know how to do the fancy quotes around portions of a post; I just recently starting quoting full posts, and I'm feeling all techy and stuff.)
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
I feel like I shouldn't have posted earlier because everyone else here is a lot smarter than me. I've wanted to post something intelligent and insightful and failed.
Just thought I'd let you all know that.
Dag and Tom, you guys are amazingly over my head.
But I always tend to understand Tom better than Dag.
Anyway, Mrs. M, I'm sorry for the pain you've felt.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: No. I AM open to other viewpoints, and can in fact be convinced by things that are persuasive enough.
Leaving the current discussion aside, I have been on Hatrack for three years. And I would hardly claim to have read every thread you have been involved in (or even close). Perhaps this is merely due to my faulty memory, but I cannot think of a single instance where you have conceded on anything but minor factual corrections (like mine early in this thread).
When was the last time on Hatrack when someone convinced you of something significant -- made you change your POV on an issue you had had a definite opinion about?
(And I specify Hatrack simply because we cannot see when this happens elsewhere. My point is actually not whether you can be convinced, but whether people around here have ever seen it happen.)
Posted by cmc (Member # 9549) on :
Think how this started as a thread to sort of get away from 'weight' and speak on something else... Yet still came back to weight.
**random thoughts by cmc**
Posted by Kamisaki (Member # 6309) on :
Tom, what exactly is your working definition of "stigma?" Someone asked this before and you didn't answer, I'm asking again because a lot of the thing you say don't amount to a stigma sure seem like it to me.
Also, this may be presumptuous of me, but I'm going to follow your example in this thread and not let that stop me. What is it exactly that you have to endure "on a daily basis" on account of being overweight that is so much worse than the hardships others have described from being skinny/attractive? I'm not asking because I disbelieve you could have those experience, just because I don't really have a frame of reference for what you're alluding to. I have never been overweight myself, and the people I know who are don't complain about things like that (at least not to me) so it would really help me understand to have some details on what exactly you're talking about.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Sharpie, it does support the fact that people consider being thin better than being not thin.
It also shows that people don't understand that too thin, or getting thin the wrong way, can be as dangerous as being grossly obese.
Both ends of the spectrum have similar traits, to be honest.
I never said being grossly overweight was easy, or healthy. I just refuted the assumption that thin (even too thin) was always better off, and had little or no negative consequences. It depends on the situation, and the people involved.
I think the problem with both situations it they often assume the other side of the fence has it easy, partially because their experiences are so opposite that they can't imagine being the other person. The phrase is "the grass isn't always greener on the other side", after all.
Tom complains that his future employment is affected by his weight. Mrs. M says that people rarely saw how competent and how smart she was because they saw her as pretty and as a sexual object, and that affected her work experiences.
In both cases the mistake being made is judging people solely by appearances, and I think the two have more in common than Tom was willing to admit.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: It's not that personal anecdotes are meaningless, Dag. It's that the personal anecdotes in question don't demonstrate anything resembling a societal stigma. Had she been refused a role in a school play because she was too thin to be a believable female lead, sure. Had she lost a job because her employers didn't want a thin person representing their agency, sure. Schoolyard teasing and jealous sniping isn't -- and I said this on the other thread -- the kind of thing I was asking for more details about.
Perhaps it's the definition of the word "stigma" that I'm using. Or perhaps people don't understand why a widespread stigma is worse than having random, isolated people feel jealous of you.
I don't know how often I have to repeat this before it's understood.
I was refused the chance to play the romantic lead in school plays because was too thin and flat chested to make a believabel female lead. I was always cast in character parts and childrens parts. When I was in college, I didn't get several jobs because being thin made me look to young to wait tables.
It isn't simply a matter of random isolated people feeling jealous of me. It is a consistent pattern that has persisted over decades with thousands of people I've interacted with.
Stigma's come in many forms. Mrs. M was considered 'stupid' and 'permiscuous' because of the way she looked. Slut is stigma.
I was considered not only ugly, but psychotic, because I was so thin. Those are stigmas.
And it isn't random isolated incidents. It is a societal pattern.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: When was the last time on Hatrack when someone convinced you of something significant -- made you change your POV on an issue you had had a definite opinion about?
Years ago, Tom shifted his position quite dramatically on the abortion issue, IIRC as the direct result of a discussion here. I think this was before you registered.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Tom complains that his future employment is affected by his weight. Mrs. M says that people rarely saw how competent and how smart she was because they saw her as pretty and as a sexual object, and that affected her work experiences.
I'm not sure Tom has actually voiced such a complaint, but it he has the statistics don't support the claim. The employment bias against fat people, is only valid for white women. Studies show that there is no such bias for men. Interestingly, it is short men who are discriminated against both socially and in the work place not fat men.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:Originally posted by twinky:
quote:Originally posted by rivka: When was the last time on Hatrack when someone convinced you of something significant -- made you change your POV on an issue you had had a definite opinion about?
Years ago, Tom shifted his position quite dramatically on the abortion issue, IIRC as the direct result of a discussion here. I think this was before you registered.
You recall incorrectly, Tom did dramatically shift his position on abortion but it was as a result of a personal real world experience not a hatrack discussion.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
There's an undercurrent in this thread that I wonder if anyone else has noticed, or even cares about. People have faced some things that, for them, were pretty crappy and that have affected their lives negatively. When this stuff happens, the natural first response, being humans and all, is a mix of anger, disappointment, and really a bit self-destructive.
And to a person, it seems, the ones who truly master the situation later in life have found ways to get over it. They find other things that are of more value than the opinions of others. They realize that their lives are blessed despite their particular burdens. They even learn to VALUE the things that make them different.
And some pretty horrendous stuff gets "swept away" from being important anymore when that shift happens.
And when that doesn't happen...well, the stuff and self-loathing feed on each other, don't they? And the person becomes embittered, resentful, and lives a life of self-fulfilling prophecies of failure.
The bottom line is that for most of us, the stuff we deal with IS surmountable, and while we still may face discrimination from the world around us, it matters less and less as we find other things we care about.
And isn't that the biggest blessing in all of this? That we actually live in a place and time where those early societal views of US don't have to define us for the rest of our lives. That we have options. That our conscious choice to move beyond is actually an effective coping strategy that has an impact on our surrounding environment.
Imagine how much worse ALL of this stuff would be if that weren't the case -- if we were the people who didn't have an opportunity to take some measure of control. Or if we were among the unfortunate folks whose environment reinforces the idea that they are hateful AND who can't get out of that environment, or who can't somehow change that environment.
Tom mentioned something about this in calling the norm here kind "spoiled." In a way he's right. The tragedies for most of us aren't near what other people in other cultures (even here in the US) suffer with every day and have no reasonable way out.
But in a broader sense, we aren't spoiled, just fortunate. And also blessed.
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
quote: Tom mentioned something about this in calling the norm here kind "spoiled." In a way he's right. The tragedies for most of us aren't near what other people in other cultures (even here in the US) suffer with every day and have no reasonable way out.
Regardless of how much any of us share on this board, none of us can truly know all of the tragedies we've weathered. To summarily lump every poster together under the description of spoiled serves no purpose other than to belittle and dismiss their issues as being relevant.
[ July 14, 2006, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: TheHumanTarget ]
Posted by Launchywiggin (Member # 9116) on :
The generalization bob made wasn't to belittle or dismiss anyone's problems. It was a fact that needed to be pointed out about the posters here. We all have access to computers.
Trust me--we're spoiled.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
I could also argue that anyone born in a first world country is 'spoiled', by global standards.
At least in the sense that you could have it so much worse.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:I could also argue that anyone born in a first world country is 'spoiled', by global standards.
You would be 99% right.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:Tom complains that his future employment is affected by his weight. Mrs. M says that people rarely saw how competent and how smart she was because they saw her as pretty and as a sexual object, and that affected her work experiences.
I'm not sure Tom has actually voiced such a complaint, but it he has the statistics don't support the claim. The employment bias against fat people, is only valid for white women. Studies show that there is no such bias for men. Interestingly, it is short men who are discriminated against both socially and in the work place not fat men.
He DID voice this point, more than once I believe, I just think it was in the "fat rights' thread, which aspawned this conversation.
BTW< I am 5' 6" - 5'7", and I know about the short man stuff myself. I am not always the shortest guy in the room,but ore often than not I am. Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
What luck Kwea! I've just been purusing the web on discrimination against short men and it turns out that the really serious discrimination is against men who are under 5' 5". Just imagine how bad it would be if you were 2 inches shorter.
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
quote: Trust me--we're spoiled.
We're spoiled because we have a computer? I'd prefer to say that we're fortunate to have such a vital tool available to us.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:At least in the sense that you could have it so much worse.
Of course we could all have it worse. That's a given - and it's true for anyone walking around in the world, regardless of where they live. Something can always be worse.
That doesn't mean that people don't suffer pain. Just because I have what most of the world would consider fabulous wealth doesn't mean I can't experience enormours tragedy and personal pain. Whether he meant it to be that way or not (and I suspect not) Bob calling me spoiled is offensive and hurtful.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Human and Belle, I think you two should go re-read my post, especially the last bit.
If you truly think I said that people ARE spoiled, then I can't help you.
But really, I find it completely unsupportable that you would come away from that post thinking that I called people spoiled.
Read especially the the last line.
Okay? Quit it!
and really, the take home point from my post was intended to be that we are fortunate because we live in a place where WHEN WE CHOOSE TO, rising above the problems caused by others around us actually works much of the time.
I would never belittle anyone's suffering. Nor would I lump all suffering into one category and say it's all equal. For stuff like what's been discussed in these threads, what matters often is the person's perception of it -- their approach to it.
There are LOTS of problems where personal mental approach is kind of a secondary thing (at best). But the kinds of problems that are the result of other people putting us down or not giving us enough consideration are truly handle-able in this country and time better than in any place or time in history.
We are fortunate.
That is all I was saying. I think I was pretty clear. Clearly no offense was intended. And if there was even an implication of us being spoiled it was CERTAINLY qualified by the notion of what is really meant by that -- i.e., fortunate. But I'm pretty sure my usage was correct in implying that I DID NOT think of it as a problem with being spoiled...
Man, this place has gone beyond frustrating lately.
NOTE: The only reason I even used the word "spoiled" in that post is that Tom referenced it earlier and it sort of gets at the same issue. I didn't want Tom (and others) to think I was ignoring what had already been said.
Sheesh!
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
quote:It isn't even close to being as hard as what I go through daily. Period.
And I'm speaking here as someone whose wife is very thin, so thin that people have assumed her entire life that she has an eating disorder, that she's practically unable to find clothes anywhere -- especially now that they've actually made Size 0 (for women) bigger to accomodate expanding waistlines. I'm not exactly unfamiliar with the "thin" experience.
I'm saying -- and I'm saying this completely unapologetically -- that thin people, even very thin people, have it far easier than fat people, and especially very fat people.
First Tom, You have yet to give one concrete example of what you go through daily as a fat person that is so far worse than what others here have gone through. Please, explain.
Second, You have a point. If I had to choose between being very thin and very fat, I would choose very thin. Morbidly obese people do have it worse than very thin people. But if I had that choice, I'd probably also have the choice of being normal weight, which is far preferrable to either extreme.
The fact that the stigma against being fat is worse than the stigma against being thin is more or less irrelevant.
If I had to choose between loosing my right hand or my left hand, I definitely choose to keep my right hand. Loosing my right hand would be far worse for me as a right handed individual than loosing my left hand. But that doesn't mean that loosing my left hand would be a trivial problem. If I had lost my left hand, I think I'd have a pretty good understanding of what people go through who had lost their left hand. And I think I'd be just in taking umbridge with any one who said 'You're just whining. It would be so much worse if you lost your right hand. Most people would be grateful to be in your shoes'.
And in essense, that is what you have been saying to me and Mrs. M. There is a lot more that is similar about being ridiculed for be thin, buxom, or fat than there is different.
Yeah your right, fat people have it worse than thin people. But that doesn't mean that the stigma I carried as an excessively thin person wasn't real. It doesn't make me an ingrate who doesn't appreciate the advantages of my body type. Maybe what stigma you carry as a fat man is really worse the one I carry as a thin woman, but that doesn't give you the right to say mine isn't real.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: What luck Kwea! I've just been purusing the web on discrimination against short men and it turns out that the really serious discrimination is against men who are under 5' 5". Just imagine how bad it would be if you were 2 inches shorter.
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True for everybody in every situation. Nobody can be protected from everything.![[Hat]](graemlins/hat.gif)
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