(WARNING TO THE MEN OF HATRACK: this thread contains very personal, feminine information. You have been warned.)
So, I just turned 18, a couple months ago. When my sister turned 18 a few years ago, she went to the gynecologist. Granted, she had been to one before due to a uterine cyst/tumor that had to be surgically removed, but my mom made sure she went when she turned 18 for a regular appointment, not just as a follow-up tot he surgery and whatnot. Now, I've always heard that women should see a gynecologist as soon as they turn 18. However, my mom says that has been changed- the age is now 21, or within three years of becoming sexually active. For the record, I am not sexually active, nor will I be before I turn 21.
My sister has been on birth control for cramps and a very heavy flow for a while, and says it helps her tremendously. I, too, have very, very bad cramps- the kind that strike without warning, that knock you over in the hallways, the kind that leave you in bed in the fetal position, rocking back and forth, sucking your thumb. Yes, those kind of cramps. I also have a fairly heavy flow. So, my mom has agreed to let me start birth control to see if it helps.
Should I see a gynecologist BEFORE starting birth control? I'd like to, if anything to see if I'm "okay" down there. Not that I have any reason to worry, I just want someoen else confirming that I'm healthy. Is it worth it to see a gyn, or should I just go to my regular doctor(who is a male... and that kind of makes me uncomfortale.)?
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
quote:Should I see a gynecologist BEFORE starting birth control?
Definitely. Even if you're not sexually active, it's a good idea to get a check up and go once a year. (Even if you're not 21.) Posted by cmc (Member # 9549) on :
Go to where you feel comfortable. It's your body. If a female gyn makes you feel more at ease (and maybe more likely to speak freely) then I say go for it. Explain to your Mom why you feel like you do... She should hear you.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Should I see a gynecologist BEFORE starting birth control?
Yes, yes, yes!
Anyway, isn't most BC prescription-only?
Posted by Ophelia (Member # 653) on :
Most doctors won't prescribe birth control without a cervical exam . . . plus it's just a good idea.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
Yes, rivka, meaning I'd either have to go to a gyn or to my regular doctor. But my regular doctor is a guy, and talking to him makes me kind of uncomfortable, especially after he told me my seizures were "normal".
Posted by ssasse (Member # 9516) on :
I think you should go to whatever physician you have available that makes you most comfortable in the case of your first pelvic exam.
You might consider meeting with your regular physician in advance to talk about what will happen when you are examined pelvically (and then you might -- or might not -- feel more comfortable with him). You also might consider calling his nurse, who would likely be there during the exam itself and can possibly reassure you in advance and/or pass on your concerns to the physician in advance.
Your health insurance may also cover an exam by a nurse practitioner, and my experience has been that NPs tend to be more thorough, more considerate, and more time-friendly than MDs (in a very general way, but a definite trend in my opinion).
You might also consider having an exam at Planned Parenthood or other provider of services geared towards women and/or sexual services. Here, too, I'd call in advance to get more information and allay your fears.
Finally, you should certainly feel justified in bringing your sister, mother, or a close friend to the exam room to hold your hand. Sometimes that makes it better. Believe me, the more relaxed your muscles are, the less uncomfortable your exam will be.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
heh heh heh... I think I'd rather be alone... I'm not comfortable around my mother or sister, and I'm not sure my friends would be willing...
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
You might wait, and go to one after you get into a dorm, at the campus med center.
Posted by Demonstrocity (Member # 9579) on :
Seriously, this has been said before, but NUMBER ONE WAY to guarantee every guy on Hatrack will read your thread: put "Ladies Only" in the subject line.
Nevermind that I regret it every single time. I will never learn.
*flees*
Posted by ssasse (Member # 9516) on :
Whatever works for you. *smile
Talking to someone who will be there in advance -- be it physician, nurse, or nurse practitioner -- would help a lot, I'll bet.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
When you make your appointment, tell the office that it will be your first pelvic exam and you'd like to meet the doctor first and talk to him/her before the exam, preferably in her office over an exam room. For some reason, meeting a doctor first with your clothes on, puts you at ease, you're not as vulnerable.
It's a very tough thing to do, to get that first pelvic but it's very important for your health now and in the future. Good luck.
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
quote: NUMBER ONE WAY to guarantee every guy on Hatrack will read your thread: put "Ladies Only" in the subject line.... Nevermind that I regret it every single time. I will never learn.
I bet they think we're kissing in here.
Just put the word "discharge" in your thread title; that ought to be enough of a warning.
Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
I would also suggest investigating your dr thoroughly first. Knowing you picked out a good dr can help you feel better. Also, talk to you dr about continous cycling. If periods are that bad for you, why have them? I loved being on seasonale (I spend my periods in a vicodin induced stupor so not having them was wonderful). I am pregnant now, so don't have to deal with periods. But if you are really miserable, a good gyn can be of help. You might want to discuss all your symptoms to see if they really are normal. I was shocked when I went to an endometriosis chat room and learned that most women with endometriosis don't get diagnosed for years and many drs don't really know what it is (I have always gone to excellent drs and was diagnosed quickly, got treatment and when that failed, had no problems getting surgery). Also, as some one mentioned, at a college medical center, they might be more sensitive. My college gyn scheduled twice as much time per patient as my current gyn (which having done this for 8 years every year, I am fine with that). There is more of an expectation of fear and discomfort there. But, they are a bit less knowledgeable in my experience.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I second the thought that you may suffer from endometriosis. It is a somewhat mysterious condition that is not well understood. You might want to interview a would-be doctor by asking them what they know about it.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Getting a pelvic exam, possibly even ultrasounds and hormone levels, can help diagnosing you correctly, and that can make a huge difference in treatment being successful or not.
Personally, I don't have endometriosis but still have the periods from hell. I get all the symptoms you mentioned plus more. It ain't fun. I sympathize.
Birth control can help, but be aware that it doesn't help everyone (it only worked for me for a few months or so before it failed working, then I'd switch to a new type, and so on) and you may need to experiment with different formulations before you find one that works.
I loved depo provera (the shot you get every 3 months) because I never got a period, and therefore had no cramping. Problem - gained weight and lots of it. Taking continuous bc pills didn't work for me, but it usually works for most.
Good luck.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
You CAN get birth control without a pelvic exam, especially if you have a doctor who knows you (my pediatrician prescribed it for me knowing that I have a morbid fear of pelvic exams). But if you're having anything weird, like really bad periods, you definitely need to see a doctor.
I'm not going to lie, my first pelvic exam was extremely unpleasant. So I definitely think you should talk to the doctor before you actually have the exam. I had a female doctor, which helped a bunch, but she was way too callous about the whole thing and was totally alarmed about my finding the exam upsetting and frightening. So yes, have the exam, but find a non-scary, nice doctor. Don't be like me and pick a doctor off a list. I brought one of my stuffed animals with me (which she also thought was weird, but screw her), and that made me feel better for some reason.
-pH
Posted by littlemissattitude (Member # 4514) on :
Just don't be surprised, especially if you go to a doctor who doesn't know you, if no one in the office believes you when you tell them you aren't sexually active.
Way back in the mid-1970s, when I went for my first exam (I was 18 or 19), when the nurse was taking my history, she asked what kind of birth control I used. I said that I didn't, because I didn't need any.
"Oh, no," she said. "Every woman needs birth control."
I tried another tack, and said that I was using abstinance. She got this very confidential tone of voice. "You know, this information is confidential. Your parents won't find out."
I think I probably rolled my eyes at that point. I told her that I was not sexually active, had never been sexually active, and had no plans to become sexually active. She still thought I was lying. So did the doctor. By the time he got to me, though, I was so tense that he very nearly couldn't do the exam. Needless to say, I didn't go back to that doctor.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
I don't have much to add. I wish you luck in finding a good doctor!
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Um, littlemissattitude, the docs (and nurses) didn't believe me either, not when I was 16, or 20, or 25, or 35.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Funny, they believe me, or at least pretend to. Either I look really honest or really ugly.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
They didn't believe me when I went at 16 until they tried to do the pelvic exam, and I started screaming. Then they just left me alone and gave me birth control without finishing the exam.
But the second gyn...ugh, she was horrible. And when I went in for a follow-up (not an exam) she kept asking me if I'd been talking to my psychiatrist. Like, yes, you dumb b***h, I'm not mentally unstable, you're just incredible callous and traumatized me for a week, okay?
Sorry...I'm displeased with gyns.
-pH
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
"If women ran the world, there'd be no wars, never ever! Just every 28 days, severe negotiations."-- Robin Williams, Night at the Met.
Posted by Omega M. (Member # 7924) on :
Rush Limbaugh joked that, since women who live together tend to synchronize their menstrual cycles, we should put female soldiers in all-female units at staggered times so that we'd have incredibly angry and brutal soldiers whenever necessary. (I'm sure other people have made similar jokes.)
Also, I always read "ladies only" threads too. I ducked out of the recent one about tampons pretty fast, because there really wasn't anything I could add. Do women really get cramps that "knock you over in the hallways" and "leave you in bed in the fetal position, rocking back and forth, sucking your thumb"? Wow!
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Yes.
Posted by ssasse (Member # 9516) on :
Yes. Crying out, moaning, wailing, can't stand up straight. It varies from woman to woman, though -- some women have such light cramps they barely recognize them. Mine were much worse as a teenager. Thankfully, I'm more in the "hardly notice them" stage now.
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
Throwing up in public bathrooms. Heck, being willing to be on the floor of a public bathroom.
Ah, so glad those days are over now! Mine got so much better after I had a baby.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
Mine seemed less after I had an ovarian cyst. They weren't, it's just that nothing compares to that pain (and the three different doctors who had no clue). During that week I was totally willing to be on the bathroom floor, or the doctor's office floor, heck I took a nap in a pig pen.
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
... A pig pen? A nap in a pig pen?
You win, if only for being in the most unlikely situation when pain strikes. Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Let let me have mine without an examination I was relieved.
Posted by littlemissattitude (Member # 4514) on :
About the cramps thing...Oh, yeah, it can do that. I hardly ever throw up, but probably half or more of the times I have thrown up have been in assoication with my period. And, from the time I started (when I was 10) until around the time I finished high school, I was in bed the first day almost every month, it was so bad. It got better after that.
And being synchronized...that happens in the workplace as well.
Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
My dr believed I was a virgin, while my sister's dr didn't believe her. Her experience was far worse than mine. Tell your dr to use the smallest tools. I know a lot of people feel more comfortable with female drs than male, so here is my opposing view. I have had three male drs and two female. The male drs I have had seem to figure that they have never had to do this, so who are they to question how painful or traumatic it is. Also, they are very concerned with making sure everything looks aboveboard and modesty is mantained throughout (if they didn't, it could destroy their career wheras the female drs don't have that fear).
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I only like male drs, too, and I have also found that female doctors tend to dismiss my pain, telling me it doesn't hurt or I shouldn't be scared (although I had one male doctor like that, too), whereas most of my male doctors (all I've seen since I've been able to choose my own) apologize for any pain they cause and tell me it will be over soon and bring the nurse in to hold my hand if need be. (The ones who have 5 or 7 or 10 kids are best about this, in my experience.)
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:Originally posted by JennaDean: I bet they think we're kissing in here.
Posted by Chanie (Member # 9544) on :
Some offices have a nurse practitioner available. They are generally able to spend more time with you so you can go at a pace that you are more comfortable with (explaining each step, etc).
Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
Like everyone else has said, the doctor you choose is important. I took pills when I was in college (and not sexually active) to try to help regulate my irregular periods. While the (female) gyn I originally saw wanted to do a pelvic exam, I (and my mother) refused (not being sexually active and 17 at the time, it was not something I wanted to do). My pcp doctor had no problems prescribing them for me without a pelvic exam. She knew my history. She knew why they were being prescribed (it was her idea in the first place). She knew I was not sexually active. So, it wasn't a problem. I think your rapor with your doctor is more important than their gender or speciality.
It has been my experience that when you are taking birth control as a contraceptive, doctors require a yearly pelvic exam (and pap smear) as a condition of prescribing them. I went back on birthcontrol before getting married and my doctor wanted me to come in for my first pelvic a few months afterwards. My doctor (family practice) had done gyn rotations and I felt comfortable having him do my pelvic exams. So, I have seen him for all of them.
Not everyone has a horrible experience during their first (or subsequent) exams. None of mine have been what I would consider "painful" (a little uncomfortable, but not horribly so). Hopefully your experience won't be painful. Do take someone with you if that would be comforting for you. The more comfortable you can be, the better it is for everyone. It is not unusual to have a little bit of bleeding, but usually it is that - just a little. Unfortunately one of the possible side-effects of NuvaRing (that I have) is inflammation of the cervix, which means that I bleed more than normal afterwards. It isn't painful, just a little messy.
[ July 18, 2006, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: ludosti ]
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Dude, maybe I should try a male doctor next time, if he's really going to be less likely to treat me like a headcase because I'm terrified of a pelvic exam.
-pH
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
The original question of when to have the first exam is something on my list of items to discuss with my doc when I see him next month. My eldest is about to turn 13, and I remember having my first exam at about 16. I don't know yet if I'll bring her to my doc, mostly because I selected someone who would be convenient to my office, and taking her to appointments there would mean missing school or trying to work with her vacation days and bringing her to the office for the day.
And yes, you should see someone before you go on medication or become active.
LMA, that seems to have been a fairly common attitude at the time... My mother and all four of her sisters reported hearing almost the exact same tack from their doctors' nurses when they were getting to be that age, ranging from around 1964 to 1975.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by JennaDean: Throwing up in public bathrooms. Heck, being willing to be on the floor of a public bathroom.
Ah, so glad those days are over now! Mine got so much better after I had a baby.
Mine too.
And I have been much happier with female doctors than male doctors. YMMV, clearly.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:YMMV, clearly.
Definitely. About pain during pelvics, too-- I know lots of people who have no problems, ever. I have, apparently, a sensitive cervix. I have wince-causing pain during swabs of my cervix, and scream during pap smears. It all depends on you and your individualities.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Yes, definitely YMMV. Count me in the camp of preferring male gyns, I had a bad experience with a female one once.
But I don't want to scare Tinros with horror stories. I've had so many pelvic exams, I couldn't even begin to count and only once can I say that it was painful - and that was from that female doc. Every other one was what I'd classify as "Not on my list of fun things to do, but not painful."
Got my first when I was 14, doc was a saint, he never questioned my sexual activity, explained everything, had his nurse hold my hand and was as gentle as could be.
There are so many things that can cause painful periods - endometriosis and PCOS are not the only ones. I also had adenomyosis, along with those two (talk about your gyn disorder trifecta!) Between my bouts with endo, PCOS and other things, and 3 pregnancies, I've been examined so many times I really just don't get bothered by it anymore. I mean, I'm not excited about it or anything, it's still no fun, but I certainly don't have any more anxiety about them. I don't want you to think it's a terrible, excruciatingly painful experience - with a good doctor it can be virtually painless and I would say most of the time, that's the way it is for me. The only time the exams are painful are when there is something else going on - like an ovarian cyst.
One thing you may want to do is take some painkillers before you go - like some Aleve. And again, try to meet with the doctor first in the doc's office, so you're dressed and on more even footing. It really makes a difference. There is hardly a more vulnerable position than sitting in an exam room in a paper gown waiting for a doctor to come in. Don't let your first meeting with the doctor be in that position.
Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
Belle had great stuff to say.
Usually if you have unusual periods, one of the first things they want to do is a pelvic to help figure out what's going on. So, to some extent, the age at which you have your first exam isn't set in stone. Most doctors I've seen recommend that women start having pelvic exams (and pap smears) at 21 (if not before for other reasons). If you're seeing a doctor (not just a gynecologist) regularly, they should be able to give you their opinion on when it would be best *for you*.
Incidentally, it seems really weird to me that anyone would meet a doctor for the first time when they're undressed for a pelvic. I can't imagine how uncomfortable that would be. So yes, meeting with them beforehand is an excellent idea.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
To answer the cramps question: yup. There have been a few times where I've gotten dizzy and lightheaded from the pain.
No gynecologist horror stories here...not everyone has a horrible experience, though obviously it's a little uncomfortable and embarrassing.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I've never had anything but the mildest cramps. Most of the time, I don't get them at all.
*flees*
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
Well, my periods were pretty regular, just heavy, until this summer. I finally started yesterday, and the blood is very, very dark- almost brown. Before then, I went a month and a half(at least) without a period. I finally convinced my mom to let me make an appointment. I have one for September 12, five days before I move in, a tthe office my sister went to, but instead of with her (male)doc, it's with the Nurse Practitioner who works there. I got to talk to her on the phone, and she was really nice about everything, and said she'd have no problem taking her time. I'm not so scared now- although I an worried.
THe problem with talking to my regular doctor first... I don't HAVE a regular doctor. I'm not going back to the one I used to go to, because he never really listens to me- he just sort of dismisses every cold I have as a sinus infection. Granted, I do get sinus infections a lot, but one time, it turned out to be double pneumonia, and I ended up missing two weeks of school, plus part of spring break, because I was so sick. He also told me that my seizures were "normal" (anyone remember that thread?).
Actually, when my sister went in, they thought she was pregnant. SHe explained that she must be the next Virgin Mary, because she'd never done anything but a quick peck on the cheek with anyone. THen they did a CAT scan, and found a cyst, and a tumor, and ended up taking out an ovary, because they couldn't get the tumor off otherwise. THe cyst was the had two liters of fluid in it, and they said it was the equivalent of a seven month pregnancy. My mom also had problems with cysts, and had a hysterectomy a few years ago. I think my grandma(on my mom's side) had problems with cysts, too. Needless to say, my family has a history of that kind of thing, and it's kind of freaking me out. I WILL mention that to the nurse, though. Call me paranoid, but with all the other health problems I've had over the years... I'd rather be safe than sorry.
All of the websites I found said girls should start visiting a gyn when they're 14-16 years old, but Pap smears should start when they're 18-21, depending on family history and sexual activity.
Meanwhile, I just got another kick in the gut, so I'm gonna go roll around on the floor for a bit...
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Tinros, when I had trouble with periods mine were the same way, except that they came like, all the time. The first time when I was 16, I got my period every other week. This year, it was for three months straight. But honestly, it doesn't necessarily mean you have a cyst or anything. They made me have ultrasounds and everything, and they never found anything, and honestly going on birth control has made my life so much easier.
One thing I noticed though that you might think is kinda weird, I got like a mini period after the pelvic exam. I don't know if this happens to anybody else, though.
Anyways, after the first couple of months, the birth control straightened things out really well. I mean, stress can screw things up a lot, and being young and in school and whatnot can be pretty stressful sometimes. I'm sure you'll be okay.
-pH
Posted by ssasse (Member # 9516) on :
Tinros, did you ever get an EEG (electroencephalogram), where the electrical activity of your brain was measured?
----------
Edited to add: This is "ClaudiaTherese," in case you remember me by that name. I remember being concerned and wanting you to get your heart and an EEG checked out, but I can't recall if I found out whether it did happen. I think I was away for awhile after that.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omega M.: Do women really get cramps that "knock you over in the hallways" and "leave you in bed in the fetal position, rocking back and forth, sucking your thumb"? Wow!
YES!
My periods have been so painful and problematic that, not only have I given scads of blood to the cause, I've had many ultrasounds over the years and even had exploratory surgery to find out if anything was wrong. There wasn't - all my organs appear fine, no endometriosis, no cysts. I've had periods that lasted as long as 35 (or maybe 42 - I don't remember anymore) days. I've had a period end only to get my next one as quickly as 3 or 4 days later. They have involved everything from migraines, dizziness, low blood pressure and passing out, projectile vomiting (I end up with broken blood vessels all around my eyes, plus really really puffy eyes so I can't see properly for a while afterwards), shifting pelvic bones, and cramps bad enough that all I can do is lie down and wimper. Not that laying down is a good position - there is no good position. It hurts like you wouldn't believe no matter what I do.
I've had gallbladder attacks. They've lasted upwards of 13 hours. All the docs and nurses at the hospital told me that, now that I've had that, having a baby would be easy - it's less painful.
My periods rivalled the gallbladder pain.
Like others have said, not all exams are painful. I've had a lot of them over the years, and it's only the last few years that they've started hurting for me. I'd never call them comfortable or something I'd really want to do, but before, they never used to hurt at all.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
I really look forward to the day when a bad experience with a female professional is attributed to her individual competence/qualities rather than to her gender.
Posted by Tinros (Member # 8328) on :
Yeah, I did get an EEG, CT, and it came back normal, so the doctor gave up. That's one of the reasons I'm not going back to him- what kind of good doctor gives up on a patient?
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Um, most of the doctors I've ever met. Posted by ssasse (Member # 9516) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tinros: Yeah, I did get an EEG, CT, and it came back normal, so the doctor gave up.
Well, at least you can rule out "seizures," then, as that's a diagnosis of abnormal brain activity, which you don't have. I hope that is reassuring.
Did anyone ever check your heart rhythm? (they might well have done this during the EEG and not mentioned it, by the way)
quote:That's one of the reasons I'm not going back to him- what kind of good doctor gives up on a patient?
He may have not known what else to say, if everything medically worrisome (to a physician, that is) had been ruled out. Of course, that doesn't address the fact that you feel uncomfortable with him, which is a reaction that should be honored. If you don't feel right with a healthcare provider, then there is a problem, period.
Did anyone talk with you about breathing exercises or other specific self-calming techniques? I remember thinking about how your symptoms would fit with unconscious hyperventilation syndrome, which is relatively more common than you'd expect. (And bringing that idea up doesn't mean I think it's "all in your head" or that you are crazy -- this is just the body's unconscious reaction to stress. It's actually something that happens to athletes a lot as well as other people -- I learned about it in Sports Medicine Clinic. My own version of this is "laryngeal spasm," for which I had to learn how to massage the muscles at the front of my throat and deep breathing techniques. )
Posted by scholar (Member # 9232) on :
My sister had seizures. She would pass out and then have one. She was even kind enough to do this while at the dr's office so he could see (not intentionally, but still, I thouhgt it was pretty convenient). After thought and testing, he came up with the brilliant observation- she only had seizures when she fainted. So, she should just stop fainting. Then he sent her on her way. My sister hadn't wanted to go to the dr's anyway so she accepted this. Strangely, this advice did seem to help her.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:I really look forward to the day when a bad experience with a female professional is attributed to her individual competence/qualities rather than to her gender.
I was not ascribing my personal feelings to her gender - I definitely think it was about competence. My oncologist is female, so is one of the pediatricians my kids see, I have no problem at all with a doctor being female, African Amerian, foreign born, whatever, I just want a competent physician. But, when I hear people say "Go to a female gynecologist" with the implication that a female is always better than a male, then I have to counter that by saying, no - in my experience that's not true.
It's not a knock against all female physicians or even against all female gyns. It's also not fair to classify all male gyns as insensitive - though I hear many people do that when they encourage women to only seek female gyns. There are some wonderful, caring, and incredibly competent male ob/gyns in the world, just as there are wonderful, caring, incredibly competent female gyns. And there are insensitive jerks of both gender, too.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Kiss]](graemlins/kiss.gif)
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)