What does the Hatrack Community think of this manifesto, which I believe to be one the most reasonable political works of our times, although certainly lacking any claims to great eloquence?
I got a bit into it, but it's quitting time here, so I'm headed home. I'll keep going on it tomorrow. I wanted you to know that I'm reading it.
In another thread, you mentioned that you are unable to join as an American. Why?
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
It is lots of contradictory and semi-contradictory idealism, a mishmash of all the popular good and bad ideas of modern liberalism, and absolutely uninteresting.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Oh, and the grammar gets worse and worse as it goes on, I think it was written in an all-nighter.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
Bao, membership is granted atomaticly to members of various organizations and cannot be gained any other way. The only American groups folded or are very small and regional, the list of members can be found here http://www.iflry.org/index.php?module=PNAddressBook&func=main
fugu, glad to have your highly constructive an in-depth view Perhaps you might wish to expand upon it?
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
fugu, Most members do not speak English as their first language, but I agree the grammar could be better.
Posted by ssasse (Member # 9516) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: Bao, membership is granted atomaticly to members of various organizations and cannot be gained any other way. The only American groups folded or are very small and regional, the list of members can be found here
You can start a chapter of [Young Democrats of America] if there is not one in your state, no? They are at "observer" status.
----
Edited to add: I think Youth for Democratic Action is a subdivison of Americans for Democratic Action, and I bet you could start a local chapter of that if there was not one available, as well. But that may be dependent on whether there is an ADA chapter there first. (i don't know.)
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
It's very much a manifesto.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
ssase, If I were not planning on moving out of the country in two years, I might.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
Tom, try to consider it with a form criticism outlook.
Posted by ricree101 (Member # 7749) on :
Out of curiosity, where do you plan on moving?
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
Probably to the U.K., but I havn't ruled out Ireland. Or, I may just leave Texas and move to one of the Coasts, it all depends on where I can get in to University.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
You might find it more likely to get into a US university. Note the large number of Europeans and Asians who come to the United States for university; there are fewer universities abroad, and, consequently, it is harder to gain admittance to them.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
Yes, although the majority of Europeans and Asians who come here would just as easily be able to go to school in their own countries. Those who cannot go to school in their own countries usualy do not go here either. Hence the fact that the more prestigious American schools have more students from abroad. However, I have great confidence in my ability to get into at least one the five British or one Irish school I plan to apply to, although I am still applying to five American schools.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: Yes, although the majority of Europeans and Asians who come here would just as easily be able to go to school in their own countries. Those who cannot go to school in their own countries usualy do not go here either.
I have direct knowledge that this is not correct.
quote: Hence the fact that the more prestigious American schools have more students from abroad.
Huh??
quote: However, I have great confidence in my ability to get into at least one the five British or one Irish school I plan to apply to, although I am still applying to five American schools.
Good for you. Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote: 2.d. Education Education is a fundamental individual right.
Fine. What exactly does that mean?
The manifesto is chock full of this kind of thing.
I mean, education as a function of observing something and learning from it is a human ABILITY. That kind of thing doesn't even require a teacher. Not all kinds of education are rights related. You can't take away my ability to breath (not without killing me)- so is breathing a right worth defending? It seems that life only, is the root of these things.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Icky is right, that first statement isn't true at all. A lot of places in the US have lower standards than most of the European schools, so a lot of students from overseas come over here and attend second tier schools, where at home they would not have been able to attend school at all.
That doesn't mean that all American schools are bad...far from it. We have some of the best schools in the world. But we also have a lot of middle tier schools which allow a lot more students abroad and US residents alike, to attend college.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: Probably to the U.K., but I havn't ruled out Ireland. Or, I may just leave Texas and move to one of the Coasts, it all depends on where I can get in to University.
I would like, for the sake of my own information and the edification of everybody here, to know why you want to go to Oxford (you've mentioned that as your top choice) and why you think you will be accepted there.
Don't take this as *too much* of a challenge, but I would rather stop taking it on your authority that this is your reasonable plan. I mean, let's hear about your grades, activities, organizations, special interests. Lets get a little background other than our direct experience with you, please.
Edit: this sounds a little nasty, but really I just want to know- I don't intend to debate you.
Posted by Cavalier (Member # 3918) on :
The market fundamentalism of Part 3 is a little dodgy - especially given all the exceptions for government intervention listed in the sections following. Wouldn't it just be easier to state an overriding goal (eg providing a basic standard of decent living for all/most or expanding the PPF of society) and then posit markets as an important (not exclusive) method of achieving this?
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Just hope you can afford to pay for a European university. They're expensive for foreigners.
Re: the document.
Taking my critiques in reverse order . . .
I could live with a modicum of bad grammar, my complaint was not directed at the grammar but at something indicated by the progression of the grammar: that the document was hastily written.
The contents were pretty much entirely predictable from the words 'young', 'liberal', 'radical', and possibly 'international'. Because of that, the document is absolutely uninteresting (as a policy statement; as a somewhat amusing perspective on the thought processes of a certain category of youth, it has its uses).
The document is so predictable because all it does is amalgamate a broad assortment of fashionable (continental, mainly) left-liberal positions. There isn't even any serious effort to integrate them, they mostly just get listed. On a side note, its amusing to see what gets 'demanded' and what doesn't.
Regarding contradiction, here's an amusing little segment:
quote:Liberal and Radical youth believe the correct forum to be the United Nations. The stability of the world is too great a burden to place with any o ne nation or group of nations.
Not only is the United Nations literally a group of nations, but the sole real international power in the United Nations is vested in a very small group of nations. Granted they call for its reform, but it even so remains a group of nations. Also notably, they call for other international area groupings to take more active roles, in seeming contradiction.
Then there are assertions like these, that they seem to think are all dramatic, when in fact they merely assert the status quo:
quote:International intervention in a sovereign nation may o nly take place where there has been gross violation of human and basic rights.
Yet which seem to not have heard of assertions like these, that call for that very role to be redefined:
quote:Also transnational companies, the mobility of manpower and capital, biotechnology, modern information technology and mass media are penetrating the state frontiers.
These developments and changes call for a new thinking in the concepts of international policy and cooperation. The principles guiding the international system, for example the rule of non-interference, must be evaluated and redefined.
The non sequiturs sprinkled around without any further development make me particularly amused. Here's a doozy:
quote:Also, in order to bring about ecological sustainability, the tax system should be changed.
For one thing . . . the tax system? There is no single tax system, nor anything close. Around the world one has examples of just about every tax system feasible.
They have a moderately reasonable description of a possible market setup (depending on how you take the statements) in the market section, but outside the market section they have doozies like this:
quote:There should be public funded education at all levels. Whilst in full-time education those studying should be provided with sufficient income regardless of the parents income. This income should be available at all levels of education, including schools, universities and apprenticeship.
I don't think the person writing that section was paying attention to the person emphasizing
quote:The degree of government involvement in the economic process should be restricted to just the necessary tasks. But the government must play a significant role in the economy and especially in the transition towards a sustainable economy. It has to define its limits within which the market sector can operate. By setting the stage is not meant direct government control but a system of rules and incentives that doesn't frustrate private initiative, but limits the range of undesirable market results. Such rules are competition rules, consumer protection and environmental protection.
In particular, the government should o nly carry out tasks that the private sector, for different reasons, can not take care of in the present situation. These reasons can be legal, social or related to efficiency. In addition, public sector spending should not be too high and tax levels should not frustrate the working of the market mechanism. Government regulation should be reevaluated, through the democratic process, o n a permanent basis.
sndrake (here on hatrack) would have a positive field day over this statement, particularly the last sentence as it relates to the rest:
quote:We recognise the special and greater economic, health and social needs of, amongst others, disabled, elderly, mentally retarded, physically and mentally ill persons, and demand that these be met. Also these groups must have access to all parts of society. The care of these groups must be guaranteed by society and with respect for the individual and his/her preferences. Voluntary euthanasia should not be criminalised.
There's this tidbit, "It is more humane to create meaningful chances for all individuals and groups to contribute to society than to offer subsidies," which is in seeming contradiction to both the education funding quotation and "The government must provide an income guarantee that covers the basic needs of the involuntarily unemployed "
I do wonder how they propose one use military force to disarm a nuclear power violently opposed to being disarmed without triggering a nuclear attack. Hopefully they have some suggestions, as they say its a particular priority:
quote:In particular, the proliferation of nuclear and chemical weaponry must be curbed by the UN if necessary through military action.
There's more, but those are a few of the things I note. I do agree with a lot of things in there, but its more a property of including a huge number of things (many contradictory) than any particular quality of the document. And as noted, most of this is highly predictable, underscoring the low importance and relevance, however reasonable something so problematic and contradictory may or may not be.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
So its a bunch of people who didn't realize all their brilliant thoughts have been had already (and might not be so brilliant)?
Welcome to the human condition... I'm sure somebody has said that one before.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
Icarus, I could find the figures if I so choose, but do you doubt that there are more students from abroad at Columbia than at Jefferson State Community College?
"Just hope you can afford to pay for a European university. They're expensive for foreigners. "They are more expensive for foreigners than for Europeans, but much less expensive for foreigners than a private university in the U.S. (Oxford costs roughly the same as the University of Texas.
"Don't take this as *too much* of a challenge, but I would rather stop taking it on your authority that this is your reasonable plan. I mean, let's hear about your grades, activities, organizations, special interests. Lets get a little background other than our direct experience with you, please."
Oxford is interested my grades in history, in which I have a 99 average over two years and was top of my class this year and my AP scores in history (I have only taken European History so far, but I got a Five then and I am taking American History, Human Geography and Comparitive Politics next year and Art History the year after.) Oxford does not care about my activities, but these include Latin Club (I am going the the National Junior Classical Leauge covention in Iowa soon), Literary Magazine and school dramas (I act in the fall plays and do tech for the spring musicals, right now I am directing and staring in a student-run production of "The Compleat Wrks of Wllm Shkspr (Abridged.)"
Posted by Angiomorphism (Member # 8184) on :
Pel have you looked into canada at all? Just wondering, it's a little closer, and there are alot of very well respected international universities here (McGill, UofT, etc)
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
" the document was hastily written." It was actualy written in stages over quite a long period of time,
quote: This IFLRY Manifesto adopted at the IFLRY Extraordinary General Assembly in Eastbourne (1992) and amended at the IFLRY Extraordinary General Assembly in Bled (1994), at the 17th General Assembly in Luxembourg (1995) at the Extraordinary General Assembly in Jerusalem (1996), at the General Assembly in Borovetz (1997) and at the General Assembly in Montreal (1998) replaces the IFLRY Manifesto adopted in Lugano in 1981.
Posted by narrativium (Member # 3230) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: Oxford does not care about my activities
This is not a good assumption to make.
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
It's a pretty terrible assumption to make. People with 99 averages and 5s in all their APs are a dime-a-dozen at top schools. I couldn't swing a cat at Waterloo without knocking a few down.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: Icarus, I could find the figures if I so choose, but do you doubt that there are more students from abroad at Columbia than at Jefferson State Community College?
This in no way addressed my point, but just for the heck of it: there are perhaps a dozen schools of the caliber of Columbia in the US. Let's say there are two dozen. There are around a thousand Jefferson State Community Colleges. Do you doubt that there are more students from abroad at all of the Jefferson State Community Colleges combined than there are at all of the Columbias combined?
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
"Extra-curricular activities will not form part of the selection process." Last line of the Oxford University Qualifications: USA applicants page. The word not was bolded.
However, I would go insane if I spent all my time studying, hence the extra-curricular activities.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
Bob, yes, but not in all majors. There are many more students applying for Politics, Philosophy and Economics or for English and Modern Languages than for Ancient History and Classical Archaelogy.
However, note that I plan to apply to twelve or more colleges universities in three or four different countries (the U.S., Ireland, the U.K. and perhaps Canada), two of which have already expressed interest in me, and so am not counting on any one college or university.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Then large portions of it were written hastily.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
I suspect they were written by committee, which might explain the lack of eloquence (there is no pretending this is the Declaration of Independence or the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen.)
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I am not offended by a lack of elegance, or a mild lack of grammar (though such errors should have been corrected before adoption, and betray procedural issues), but at a lack of thought.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
Whatever its faults may be, I do not believe a lack of though is one of them. Heavily qualified statements, however much we disagree with them, are usualy the product of much, perhaps too much thought.
Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
Pelegius,
I finally had a chance to read it all the way through. I found it to be somewhat incoherent and contridictory. Fugu pointed out a few of the contridictions, but there are more. What bothered me the most is that they stated certain positions or policies as if they were inherently desirable and obvious, when often I felt like they were neither.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
Bao, such is a manifesto.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
I don't think lack of thought, fugu, so much as a lack of cohesion and desperate need for a good editor (not just for grammar, but to ensure a consistency of idea, to force writers to justify throw away comments, and to force writers to reconcile apparent contradictions).
Though, perhaps radical liberal youths rebel against editing and resist attempts to reconcile flaws in their style or ideas.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
I can think of no manifesto that has ever justified its statements in any serious way. As a literary/political form they are simple statements of belief, like a Creed in the Catholic tradition.
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: They are more expensive for foreigners than for Europeans, but much less expensive for foreigners than a private university in the U.S. (Oxford costs roughly the same as the University of Texas.
The University of Texas is not private and (unless things have changed drastically) incredibly cheap. Plus, they offered me a number of scholarships, sight unseen, merely based on my PSAT scores. If you had sent yours there, and you are as academically accomplished as you say (I would presume you were a National Merit Semifinalist?) you should have had a number of scholarship offers out of the gate.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I don't meany lack of any thought, I mean lack of necessary thought, particularly on consistency, logic, and support.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Yeah, University of Texas offered to give me a free ride, despite my never having applied there.
Pel: even statements of belief require a certain minimal justification/context. See the quotation about "the tax system" that appears out of nowhere and is so undeveloped as to be inscrutable.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
"I would presume you were a National Merit Semifinalist?" Not yet, anyway (I am only going into my Junior year.)
The point I wished to make is that European Universities, which are almost always at least partialy publicly funded, cost about the same as American public universities for an American to attend, and much less for a European. Indeed, I believe French schools are free and open to all students with a Bac. (anyone can enter, but many, perhaps most, fail out.)
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
Just saying don't judge what's in your back yard too harshly... there is a lot of scholarship money to be had here in the US, state schools like UT tend to be very inexpensive (UT Dallas ran me about $500 a semester in '97) and, while it's not Oxford, UT Austin, for example, has a very well-respected Physics program.
Posted by Procrastination (Member # 4821) on :
Here's what Oxford's site has to say about tuition:
quote:Classics / Literae Humaniores; Philosophy and Theology; B.Th. in Theology (£8,880) Most other programmes in social sciences, humanities and human sciences (£10,360) Science subjects, including joint degrees, involving a laboratory-based element; Computer Science; Music; Fine Art (£11,840) Clinical Medicine (£21,700)
So, a Classics degree would cost roughly $16,500 USD and a humanities degree would cost roughly $20,000 USD. That's not too bad when compared to private universities in the US, though the conversion rates make the cost of living roughly twice as much in the UK, too.
Posted by Procrastination (Member # 4821) on :
quote:I am only going into my Junior year.
I thought you said you were seventeen?
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
quote:Originally posted by Procrastination: That's not too bad when compared to private universities in the US
But a lot more than public ones.
Posted by Hamson (Member # 7808) on :
The letters in the title of the thread made me think of Firefly. Did it do that to anyone else?
On topic, the thing that you linked to seems like it could be up for discussion. I mean, they're representing all of the "young people" in the world. I certainly didn't give them my permission to represent me.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
"I thought you said you were seventeen?" Actualy, not for a week. Seventeen seemed more real than 16.96
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
How about compared to my age, i?
Posted by TheGrimace (Member # 9178) on :
in terms of comparison of school costs consider just the difference between in and out of state tuition for various state schools:
i.e. Purdue in state is approximately 6000/yr (I think) while out of state is approximately 20000... for a public university. so going to UT vs oxford would be a huge jump, but going UofI (from Texas) vs oxford is prolly comparable.
on the topic of the manifesto: I largely must agree with TomDavidson... a manifesto by its very nature is going to tend towards the exremely idealistic side of things (which in my mind makes it fairly useless). And the list that has been growing here on the various contradictions and non-sequiturs seems to be damaging enough in my mind to not give it too much thought.
I suppose "poorly compiled" might be the best description for most of its flaws. The manifesto doesn't strike me as bad so much as not terribly useful.
It reminded me of people saying "I wish there were world peace" and me saying "so does just about everyone else, what's your point?"
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:Probably to the U.K., but I havn't ruled out Ireland. Or, I may just leave Texas and move to one of the Coasts, it all depends on where I can get in to University.
Have you considered Canada? It's cheaper university-wise, we speak the same language, have all the things you are used to (plus Mars Bars and Smarties) and are more liberal.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
We have smarties. In fact, I think I'll go have a roll now.
Also, we have M&Ms. Apparently, in godless Canada you can only have one or the other! Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:We have smarties. In fact, I think I'll go have a roll now.
Then I've been greivously misled (Is that one word?)! I was told there were no smarties in America. Perhaps there are smarties in only parts of America?
We also have M&Ms.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
There are smarties here. They're just different than yours. Yours are awfully similar to M&Ms; thus Ic's comment.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Ooooh, I remember now. You call "smarties" what we call "rockets" and they're not at all like what I think of as smarties. My smarties are, as rivka says, similar to M&Ms. Although, I wouldn't go so far as to say "awfully" similar. They taste and look quite different.
We have all three: Smarties of the chocolatey kind, Rockets and M&Ms.
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
We also have Mars Bars here.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I'm aware of the Mars Bars thing- apparantly they're rare, though.
Posted by Procrastination (Member # 4821) on :
Seventeen and a rising junior? Wow, you're old for your grade. I didn't turn seventeen until the end of my junior year. Did you start late, or did you repeat an early grade?
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pelegius: Oxford is interested my grades in history, in which I have a 99 average over two years and was top of my class this year and my AP scores in history (I have only taken European History so far, but I got a Five then and I am taking American History, Human Geography and Comparitive Politics next year and Art History the year after.) Oxford does not care about my activities, but these include Latin Club (I am going the the National Junior Classical Leauge covention in Iowa soon), Literary Magazine and school dramas (I act in the fall plays and do tech for the spring musicals, right now I am directing and staring in a student-run production of "The Compleat Wrks of Wllm Shkspr (Abridged.)"
Hmmm. A five is excellent! My only 5 was in lit, and it was too late to effect admissions, although I think it I had gotten that five a year earlier, instead of a 4 on language, I likely would have been accepted at UCLA (I was *accepted* under a new program that required a few terms of JC because of class size restrictions, wheras a few years ealier I would have been in...:sad:)
Actually only a few in every thousand students gets a grade that high in anything, (or so I recall reading) so that's a good sign. I think Oxford probably WOULD be interested in your activities, but you'll find that out on the application, won't you? :grin:. When you say "interested in" I assume you mean that they sent you a pamphlet because of a high score on PSAT or the AP? This is how I got all my college info. This is not "interest" per se, and in fact many colleges send these out to students who aren't qualified to attend that school. Have you actually been in contact with them? I suggest you do this soon if you'd like to go there, because they certainly aren't wanting for good students.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I turned 17 in senior year. Isn't the latter half of junior year or early part of senior year generally when people turn 17?
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: I turned 17 in senior year. Isn't the latter half of junior year or early part of senior year generally when people turn 17?
I was an old one, and turned 18 near the middle of senior year. Yeah, your right, that's about how it works. But I think pel is 17 and ENTERING junior year- is that right?
Posted by prolixshore (Member # 4496) on :
I turned 17 at the very beginning of my junior year. I was older than almost everyone in my class because of the date which qualified you to start school. It is possible to be 17 and a rising junior without having been held back a year. Plus, it means you can drive before all your friends.
--ApostleRadio
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
But he is 17 and its only july- my sisters turned 17 in october of their senior year, so logically why would they be in senior year and he be just finished with his sophomore year? The dates are over a year apart.
Posted by prolixshore (Member # 4496) on :
I don't know, other than to blame it on Texas. I went to school in Texas as well and was about his age. There is a little leeway in how these things can be done. For example, my older sister turned 17 in February of her senior year, whereas I turned 17 in October of my junior year. Those are over a year apart as well, and we both went through school in the same way with no problems.
--ApostleRadio
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Yet another interesting nugget on Peligius, product of the Texan education system. Proudly ranked 50th in the united states- the highest ranking in the country!
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Orincoro: Oxford does not send out pamphlets to students doing well in school in the US (or in England, I think). Oxford exists, and waits for people to apply .
Posted by Procrastination (Member # 4821) on :
I got mugged by colleges after my AP and PSAT scores came in. I got 5's in Composition and Calculus, a 4 in US History, a 3 in Art, and 1440 on my PSAT. I had to use a shovel to get past all the mail just to get to my room.
My best friend had it worse. He had 5's in Composition, Literature, Calculus, Physics Mechanics, Physics Electromagnetism, US History, and Spanish. Plus he pulled a 1550 on his PSAT and again on his SAT. The schools that weren't beating down his door were stalking him at the bus stop.
Posted by narrativium (Member # 3230) on :
Oh, stop bragging. Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I had very nice PSAT and SAT scores, and got all sorts of pamphlets from universities . . . who would not have been the least bit interested in me if they could have seen my grades.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I'm only dimly aware of the practice of sending pamphlets out to prospective students. I don't think it's done in Canada. You talk to your high school teachers, councilors, and sometimes representatives from universities will come and talk to your class, but for the most part if you want to find out about schools you're on your own. My brother certainly gots 5s on all the AP tests he wrote, as well scoring at/near the top of the world in some geography and history tests he wrote, and I don't recall him getting a single pamphlet.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
That's only because a 5 in Canada is only a 3 in the US because of the exchange rate.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Actually, the loonie is close to US$0.90 now, and was over that mark for a while earlier this year. It'll probably stay high as long as our resource sector continues to be a powerhouse worthy of Saudi Arabia.
And a good thing, too, given the amount of crossborder travel I've been doing recently. Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
Well, Canada is the largest importer of oil the US has, so it stands to reason your economy would be getting a bit of a boost.
So, a 5 would then be a 4.5, eh?
Posted by Angiomorphism (Member # 8184) on :
Bob back when I was in high school in Toronto, I got a few letters from universities in Canada. However, they were less reputed ones. None of the big ones (including where I am now) sent things out until you applied to them.
EDIT: what is all this talk about 5s and 4s? I wrote the PSATs and SATs, but I guess it was more for fun than anything so I only looked at the percentiles, and I did the IB, and the highest mark there is a 7, so it can't be that you're talking about...
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
We're talking about Advanced Placement exams, Angio. Certain teachers can get AP certified to teach college level courses in high school. The course is meant to be as rigorous as a first year college curriculum, culminating in an examination at the end of the year. If you do well, some colleges give you college credit or placement as consideration that you already completed a college level course. These tests cost upwards of $65 each (probably more now) to take.
You are ranked on a scale of 1 through 5. Ones and twos aren't recognized by any school I've ever heard of. Threes are normally taken as either credit or placement by state schools and community colleges, but rarely accepted at more competitive schools. Fours are accepted by most schools outside of the most competitive colleges, and fives are accepted by almost all colleges (for placement at least, if not credit).
Some high schools offer many AP courses, and others offer none. A guy I met when I studied in Ireland got 63 AP credits accepted at Rice University in Texas, and started with junior class standing his first year (followed by three senior years - believe me when I tell you this kid was insanely smart but still very sociable. I don't think he's quite human.). His high school offered all manner of AP courses, even so far as offering some for accelerated eighth graders to take.
Sometimes AP scores get you out of requirements (I placed out of freshman Expository Writing and my mathematics requirement at Rutgers), while other times the requirement stands but you have to take a higher level course to fill it. Schools have their own rules on acceptance or nonacceptance.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
AP tests are graded on a scale of 5. People who score in the 80th percentile and above get a 5, people who score in the 60th and above get a 4, 40th and above get a three, and so on.
* * *
[ On a slightly related note, I've noticed that the most prestigious colleges tend to send the least stuff. "Don't call us, we'll call you" type of thing. ]
--j_k
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
Bah, FC's fingers are faster than mine.
AP tests now cost $82 for the first test, and then $10 less for every subsequent test.
--j_k
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:Originally posted by James Tiberius Kirk: AP tests are graded on a scale of 5. People who score in the 80th percentile and above get a 5, people who score in the 60th and above get a 4, 40th and above get a three, and so on.
So if you get nothing right you get a 1? ::scratches head::
Posted by Angiomorphism (Member # 8184) on :
Oh ok, see I've heard of the whole AP thing, but because my school was private and did IB (international baccalaureate for anyone not acquainted) I never had to deal with AP, since all my IB courses in my last 2 years of highschool were equivalent to AP courses (in that I could skip some first year classes or at least get a credit). What are the averages out of 5? Higher than 80th percentile seems like a pretty low bar to be giving out the highest mark. In the IB a 7 (the best mark) is reserved for the top 5% of the entire world (the final IB exams, which give you most of your grade, are the same for everyone in the world, and all your other official IB work is graded overseas).
Posted by Chanie (Member # 9544) on :
My AP credits actually worked against me once I was in college. If you got a 5, you couldn't take the intro class in whatever topic (because supposedly you already had that content).
Well, it turned out that the AP classes were nowhere near as rigorous as the college classes. So I actually didn't have all of the prereq material that others in my second level classes had.
Posted by Angiomorphism (Member # 8184) on :
Oh I agree with you there Chanie. I had the option of skipping 1st year chem back in the day, but I decided not to, because I was a slacker in first year and didn't want to overexert myself. Wow was that a good decision... I would have been totally lost in second year organic chem and physical chem had I not taken 1st year, and simply relied on my highschool "university level" IB classes. Though maybe that is mostly for the sciences, because the university level arts classes I took in highschool (philo, western civ) were very similar to some of the first year (and second year) arts classes I have taken.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I did the same thing with Calculus--that is, I chose not to skip it, because I thought I could benefit from having it again. That being said, I felt that my AP classes were far more rigorous than their equivelant first-year college classes.
As for the bar being low to get a five, keep in mind that this isn't a general high school population we're talking about, but a fairly elite one.
Posted by Angiomorphism (Member # 8184) on :
Yes I see what you mean. I guess being surrounded by people who are more or less all at that higher level biases my perspective (though I did go to public schools until highshool, and am one of the few who made it to tertiary education). Sometimes I forget that only 1% of the world ever goes to university (global village anyone! haha that was my favorite lecture in both high school and uni).
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by fugu13: Orincoro: Oxford does not send out pamphlets to students doing well in school in the US (or in England, I think). Oxford exists, and waits for people to apply .
But seriously. I think alot of top schools boost their rejection/acceptance numbers by advertising themselves to alot of students who may not have a snowball's chance in hell of getting in.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Oxford isn't one of those Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by James Tiberius Kirk: AP tests are graded on a scale of 5. People who score in the 80th percentile and above get a 5, people who score in the 60th and above get a 4, 40th and above get a three, and so on.
--j_k
Hold it. I don't trust that. I was the ONLY person in my school in 3 years to get a 5 on lit. Your telling me that No one get in the 80th percentile in three years but me?
The number of 5s awarded is MUCH lower than that from what I remember reading on the AP. (I thought 5s were the upper 2 percent)
Posted by Chanie (Member # 9544) on :
If you look here, you see that, in Virginia for example, the scores go 13%, 21%, 27%, 24%, 14% for 5 to 1 respectively.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: I did the same thing with Calculus--that is, I chose not to skip it, because I thought I could benefit from having it again. That being said, I felt that my AP classes were far more rigorous than their equivelant first-year college classes.
That is VERY true. First year college courses, for instance an English 1 course at the UC isn't half as hard or as long as an AP course. Oh well.
Posted by TheGrimace (Member # 9178) on :
don't be fooled by those percentages though...
a 3 is generally considered passing (may or may not get you out of a class) a 4 will generally get you out of one class a 5 may get you out of two.
i.e. my 4 in english (cant remember if it was lit or comp) got me out of my freshman english requirement. my 5 in US history got me credit for 2 classes (6 credits) of gen-eds, and my 3 in chemistry would have gotten me out of the low 100-level chemistry class for non-science majors (us engineers had to take a higher level one that required a 4 to get out of)
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow: A guy I met when I studied in Ireland got 63 AP credits accepted at Rice University in Texas, and started with junior class standing his first year
Many colleges have a maximum number of credits-by-testing that they will accept. 30, 45, and 60 are all common.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
The AP scores are targeted to being the rough equivalent of grades in the corresponding college courses; a 5 being an A, a 4 being a B, and so on (very roughly).
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
*grin* Hey, I thought it was accurate.
In any case, my point was that it's a bit different from the IB scoring system.
--j_k
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow: A guy I met when I studied in Ireland got 63 AP credits accepted at Rice University in Texas, and started with junior class standing his first year
Many colleges have a maximum number of credits-by-testing that they will accept. 30, 45, and 60 are all common.
63 Aps would put you through one year and one quarter at a UC campus at least. But that's the quarter system, so I don't know. Its roughly equivelant to 8 classes here, hardly half of course load (and btw, that student will probably not have time to actually finish college in only two years, since many majors take longer no matter what- mine certainly has.)
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I know about the UC system; I attended it.
63 semester credits are roughly equivalent to 90-100 quarter credits, depending on how the equivalence is assessed. (For example, it takes a minimum of 180 quarter credits to graduate a UC; it takes 120 semester credits to graduate most schools on the semester system.)
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
If it's making him a junior, then he's talking semester credits. 15 a semester is considered a full undergraduate load.
A B.A. starts at around 120 semester credits.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Actually, a full load is generally defined as anywhere between 12 and 18 semester credits. But if you want to finish in 8 semesters (that is, four years), you'd need to average 15 credits a semester.
And that's assuming you actually only need 120 credits to graduate. If one takes "too many" electives, or double-majors, or does a few other things, it can easily take 140-150 credits to get your degree.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
He was a little bit of a freak of nature, that kid. He started his first year with junior class standing for housing and whatnot, and entered into all 300 level classes. I met him at the start of his third senior year (his fourth year at school), when he took a semester to study abroad in Ireland.
He was a math major and once told me of a theoretical math class his second year where it was him and four seniors. They would get one problem to do per week, due at the start of class on Monday afternoon. They would all gather in the classroom Sunday afternoon, order pizza, work through the night, send out for breakfast, and keep working until they finished (hopefully before the start of class). One time a Nobel Prize winner came in to their room to have one of the seniors help translate his speech for the following day from German into English.
He had a 4.0 average, having taken almost exclusively 300 level classes or higher during four years, and decided to first go to law school, then become a Lutheran minister. Preferably studying both at the same time.
We talked in the computer lab about which law schools he wanted to go to, and he decided he didn't want to go to school in Chicago, Boston or California... so he looked at some ranking of the best law schools in the country, crossed off the ones in those locations, and applied to the first five that weren't crossed out.
I lost touch with him after the study abroad, but we had some really, really interesting conversations over pints of Guinness, I can assure you.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
Oxford does not send letters out. St Johns College, the school I said was interested in me, is very eccentric in how it runs its admissions, as in everything else. For one thing, they do not require any test scores at all but instead rely on an elaborate process of essays interviews. They accept a majority of applicants because most students are not willing to go through the process, which often involves spending a week in New Mexico or Maryland, unless they are seriously interested in the St. John's program, which, of course, most students aren't. Even I think that a degree from St. John's, while well regarded by grad schools, is of only limited practical value.
And, it is very common in Texas for students, particularly boys, to be around half a year to a year older than students in other parts of the country. This is especially true in Middle Class Public schools and Private Schools. I am by no means the eldest in my class.
Finally, Oxford's admission system, in common with the rest of the U.K., is based on four factors, test scores (A.P., SAT I and II for Americans), school recommendations, written work and an interview. The interview is actually a form of informal oral test and not at all like one for an American college ( a close friend of mine did his for Theology in October and was turned down, so he is going to University of Edinburgh instead.)
"My AP credits actually worked against me once I was in college. If you got a 5, you couldn't take the intro class in whatever topic (because supposedly you already had that content)." That is a very strange system.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
quote:15 a semester is considered a full undergraduate load.
I took four semesters of 18+ credit hours, including two semesters where 5 of those credits were 5 one hour labs.
I think the rule at my school was 18 was fine, but more than that and you needed the Dean's permission. But it wasn't hard to get.
Edit: I guess the salient point is that I wasn't unusual in my courseload, and that 15 hours a semester is average to below average in my experience.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
And that's assuming you actually only need 120 credits to graduate. If one takes "too many" electives, or double-majors, or does a few other things, it can easily take 140-150 credits to get your degree.
Believe it or not, with my double major, Ap units, musical performance units (which are non-impactive on the unit cap at the UC), and abroad units, I will top out somewhere close to 240 units when I graduate. This is not ussually allowed at a UC, but some of my units don't count towards the cap, so I am doing a third again as much as some people who graduate with 180. And, in fact, much more since music classes are vastly underweighted hour/unit wise.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
[QB]
quote:15 a semester is considered a full undergraduate load.
Which is, by the way, one of the really vexing things about being in a quarter system rather than semester. 15 unit-hours (which often translates to MORE class hours than that), is the courseload recommended by the UC for full time students. What ends up happening, is that we in the quarter system either cover all the same material a semester class would, but in 10 weeks. OR, we cover less, but have more diverse class listings. Rare is the class which actually has some continuation from quarter to quarter. Arts and music are the only ones that really do this, with some effort at continuation with the same teacher, schedule, and students from quarter to quarter.
This kind of relationship with professors and other students is more difficult, because we get to know each other less easily, and see eachother less regularly. The main reason I stuck out the music major after the first few quarters was the continuation it offered, and the friends I was making in the major-- my English major has made me very few friendships at all, and let me get to know very few profs.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro:
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
And that's assuming you actually only need 120 credits to graduate. If one takes "too many" electives, or double-majors, or does a few other things, it can easily take 140-150 credits to get your degree.
Believe it or not, with my double major, Ap units, musical performance units (which are non-impactive on the unit cap at the UC), and abroad units, I will top out somewhere close to 240 units when I graduate. This is not ussually allowed at a UC, but some of my units don't count towards the cap, so I am doing a third again as much as some people who graduate with 180. And, in fact, much more since music classes are vastly underweighted hour/unit wise.
But again, you're talking about quarter units, not semester credits. 240 quarter units is equivalent to 160 semester credits (more or less). And it's not that unusual for someone with a double major.
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro:
quote:15 a semester is considered a full undergraduate load.
Which is, by the way, one of the really vexing things about being in a quarter system rather than semester. 15 unit-hours (which often translates to MORE class hours than that), is the courseload recommended by the UC for full time students. What ends up happening, is that we in the quarter system either cover all the same material a semester class would, but in 10 weeks.
Simply untrue in my experience. A year's worth (three quarter classes) of calculus at UCLA was very close to a year's worth (two semesters) at other schools; similarly for chemistry. I looked into it quite carefully.
What I liked about the quarter system was that it was so quick. So if I hated a prof, or a class, I knew I would be done with it soon. Also, when I took a quarter off (which I did three times while I was an undergrad, mostly because of having kids), it didn't mean missing a whole half-year.
Posted by JenniK (Member # 3939) on :
First: Question - just who are you staring at in these works of Shakespeare? Sorry, couldn't help myself.
Second: Be very careful not to presume too much about colleges, even those that state in their literature that they do NOT consider extra-curricular activities when looking at applications. If there are 300 people trying to get into the same major field of study as you are, all of whom have similar grades, the next thing that the admissions people are going to look at, is extra -curricular activities. The reason for this is they want to see how you handled your school and study demands with those of other groups, or activities you may have been involved in... Did you do it for only a year, did you stick with it for more than 3 years, could you handle more than one thing and maintain excellent scores in all your classes? They choose the people who appear to be able to handle their studies, activities, and the stress involved with it all over those who have fewer, or no activities listed. ( I worked in the offices of a college - the financial aid and admissions...basically the administration offices, so I do know about these things.)
Third: You have also not taken into account that more International students attend State Universities here in the US than Community Colleges. Your comment about that didn't make much sense to me since most community colleges ("Jefferson State Community College") have very small International programs, if any, wheras, many Universities, such as UMASS, Amherst (again experience talking here) have very large International Programs with whole communities and dorms allotted for those students. Since I majored in Spanish and Minored in Japanese, I spent most of my time with the international students, and I can assure you that for many of them, the reason that they came to the US for school is that although they were the top students in their cities and had the best records, the tests they had to take to get accepted to the Universities in their countries were so difficult that only those who scored in about the top 3 percent on the tests were accepted. Especially true in China where some of the students I spoke to said they were up against thousands of others, scored in the 4th percentile, and were not accepted. These are some of the world's greatest minds, and they were not considered smart enough to go to the Universities in their own countries! (One of my friends has a doctorate, and 4 masters degrees from schools here in the US, by the way! If that is not an overachiever, I don't know what is!)
My last point is this: Never assume that because you are confident in your abilities, you will succeed at your goals...it takes continued hard work, patience, and more hard work, not only belief in one's self (I had a friend in much the same state of mind that you show here who had perfect grades, all sorts of activities, and was not accepted to any of her top 5 choices for schools. She drove to the beach, swallowed a bottle of sleeping pills, and walked out into the ocean because of it. She was 17. Her name was Felissa, and I still think it was such a waste because she had so much life and so much of it left ahead of her. She could have done anything, but she never even imagined the possibility that she would be turned down. Please do not make the same mistake. Besides you should never assume anything : "it makes an a s s out of u and me - a s s u m e! Just a little friendly advice. Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Keep in mind that those AP tests weight the different types of questions differently, so a simple correct percent seems a little out of whack.
fugu is completely correct....they are suppose to represent A, B and C grades. I got a couple of 3's myself, including one in a class I didn't take.
It was a year long class....half fulfilled the government requirement for graduations; the second half was the AP course in comparative government. The teacher like me, and I needed a third English class my senior year (I had lost credit in an Advanced Composition class in my junior year because of tardies; I had an A- too. ) , so he talked to the administration and convinced them to let me take the test anyway. Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
12 is full time, and meets most requirements for scholarships.
15 is the standard course load in the US, though.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
If that were true, the average full-time student would be finishing in four years. This is not actually true, at least not as of the last time I saw stats.
On second thought, I guess that depends on what you mean by standard. If you mean "recommended load so you can graduate in four years," absolutely. If you mean, "the load of the average full-time student," then no. A goodly number of full-time students are taking the 12-credit minimum (to qualify for scholarships, grants, loans, etc.) and no more. Usually due to job and/or family obligations.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
That's why I mentioned that 12 hours counts as full time.
A lot of people take leaves of absences from school, and a lot work so can only handle 12 semester hours.
But the most common reason for that fifth year isn't either. It is because people usually switch their majors at least once, and a lot of time that means they need additional classes due to graduation requirements. Also, at some schools classes that are required for specific majors are tough to get into, so even seniors sometimes can't get into them.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: What I liked about the quarter system was that it was so quick. So if I hated a prof, or a class, I knew I would be done with it soon. Also, when I took a quarter off (which I did three times while I was an undergrad, mostly because of having kids), it didn't mean missing a whole half-year.
Obviously if your talking about Calc, and the cources run A-C, then you are basically following a two semester courseload in three quarters, since its likely that the same classes have been taught over two quarters. What I am saying is, and certainly not for ALL classes, that quite a few one-off classes, (depends on your major, English is mostly one-offs), include as much material as a semester class at another school.
You do get that back with more flexibility and more diversity in your class selection, but you simply can't avoid the fact that in some areas the quarter system is going to fracture your relationship with other students, or profs, or your ability to take time to absorb alot of information. You simply can't cover the same amount of 18th century brit lit in 10 weeks, as in a semester. You can cover more, and different material, maybe more material in the quarter system, but the experience is altered by the schedule. Maybe you meet more people, but spend less time getting to know them, or have more profs, but less time with them.
The problem I did point out it really a common one in the quarter system: many profs really DO try to fit too much material into the alotted time, because that course will be serving as a survey for the topic. Again, it doesn't happen with every class, but one-off classes are notorious for this, and English classes even more so. I can't speak for other disciplines, but English here at the UC has given me that impression.
Simply untrue? Its not that simple.
Edit- your example of the calc class that spans three quarters was almost exactly the same as the one I gave about music classes and how the quarter system OVERCOMES this negative aspect. The problem is that these kind of continuations from quarter to quarter are not common to all majors, and are unheard of in English.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I all but minored in English. I took lots of upper-division English courses, and narrowly avoided the 10 series (just took 10A). And I still disagree with your assessment. *shrug*
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
quote:If that were true, the average full-time student would be finishing in four years. This is not actually true, at least not as of the last time I saw stats.
Taking 15 credits per semester does not necessarily mean you graduate in 4 years. Most people I knew in college took 15 or more credits per semester, though many of these still did not graduate in four years.
There are all kinds of reasons this is possible. A change of major (very common), or adding a double major (or minor) will often force a need for more than 120 credits. Some credits may not have counted toward core requirements or a major, and were taken out of interest, such as performance credits that do not factor into graduation credits. Classes may be failed or withdrawn from before the end of a term.
I don't have numbers in front of me, but I think 15 credits per semester could very easily be the average - even taking into account that the average student doesn't graduate in four years.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
Five years seems a very long time in any university undergraduate program. My top choices are all three-year schools (for my major, some like medicine or engineering are four year.) Even in many American universities, isn't it possible to graduate in three?
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Possible, sure. Advisable, not very. Keep in mind that most undergraduate degrees in the US are liberal arts degrees requiring a diversity of classes in many different subject areas, while most undergraduate degrees in Europe (for instance) involve significantly less study outside the major subject area.
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
Possible, but in a science major (one which requires a lot of time intensive labs) it's damn hard. It would take overloading yourself every semester, and probably some summers.
I knew a Saudi in school who was somehow managing to take 29 hours a semester, and was gonna graduate in two and a half years with a petroleum engineering degree. Of course, that took both a perfect storm of class lineups and about 70+ hours a week on his part.
But with his wife and child living in another country, I understood how he could do it.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow:
quote:If that were true, the average full-time student would be finishing in four years. This is not actually true, at least not as of the last time I saw stats.
Taking 15 credits per semester does not necessarily mean you graduate in 4 years. Most people I knew in college took 15 or more credits per semester, though many of these still did not graduate in four years.
There are all kinds of reasons this is possible. A change of major (very common), or adding a double major (or minor) will often force a need for more than 120 credits. Some credits may not have counted toward core requirements or a major, and were taken out of interest, such as performance credits that do not factor into graduation credits. Classes may be failed or withdrawn from before the end of a term.
I don't have numbers in front of me, but I think 15 credits per semester could very easily be the average - even taking into account that the average student doesn't graduate in four years.
All you said is true. But I don't believe that the average student is taking 15 credits -- 12 is much closer. This is just one college's stats, but I've seen some very similar overall stats. I just can't remember where to look for 'em online.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:the “average number of credit hours attempted per semester” explains the largest proportion of variance (38.1 percent) in the students’ enrollment behavior.
Posted by TheGrimace (Member # 9178) on :
Also consider that a lot of times average hours/semester vary according to what year you are and what major you're in:
For example my schedule was something like: 18 17 16 16 15 15 13 12
Freshman year was lots of basic stuff that wasn't that work-intesnive (not to say that it was easy) whereas the further I progressed into engineering the more time/effort-intensive my classes became. By senior year you looked at people taking 15 credits like they were an overachiever and those taking 18 didn't sleep more than 4 hours a night...
for example: 3 credit hour senior design was closer to a 9 credit freshman class in terms of work/time. a 1 credit lab was closer to a 3 credit freshman class...
of course some of that is specific to engineering, the various gen-eds didn't increase in time/effort nearly as steeply.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
That was a really interesting site, rivka. It seems after reading it that it's very hard to find an average student experience because of so many factors that affect credits gained and time taken.
Still, statistically, there were a few things that could be seen.
Among full time students, the average number of credit hours attempted (among students surveyed) was 14.4 per semester. However, the average number of credit hours *earned* was 13.1 per semester (accounting for dropped and failed classes).
Among all students, the average number of credit hours attempted was 14 per semester, while the average number earned was 12.7. This includes part time students, at least as far as I understood the data.
So, it looks like the goal for most students is to try for 14 per semester, though the realities of the college environment reduce that number closer to 13.
Still, the average number of credits accumulated during a bachelor's degree is 141.8 for full time students, with an attempted 155.5. That's at least a full semester's worth of courses taken beyond the standard 120 requirement, with a full year's worth attempted over that requirement.
That's pretty amazing.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Engineering is definitely known to have a very steep time-to-credit curve as you move up the years. There's also much less flexibility is terms of class order (that is, which courses you take which semester/quarter).
I was just comparing notes the other day with someone who attended UCLA's School of Engineering at roughly the same time I was getting my degree in chemistry from the College of letters and Sciences. She was not familiar with the concept of electives within one's major. To her, there were breadth (called core requirements at some schools) requirements, major requirements, and electives. I had regular electives, and also major electives (you know, choose three of the following ten classes).
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
One of the classes I most enjoyed when I was at UCLA was an education class about college students. We looked at stats on all kinds of things that affected who applies, who attends, who completes their degree, etc.
Now that I'm working in college administration, I wish I'd kept all those articles and studies we had to read! Fortunately, some stuff I get now through other routes, or can find online.
But yeah, really interesting stuff.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
"just who are you staring at in these works of Shakespeare? Sorry, couldn't help myself." I, as one of three actors, play Romeo, the Prince, the Friar and the Nurse in Romeo and Juliet; one of the rappers in Othello; the witch (we only have one) in MacBeth; Cæsar in Julius Cæsar; a football player and a sports announcer in the collected tragedies; and various roles in Hamlet. My primary role is that of a narrator.
As you may have guessed, this is not a typical Shakespearean production, nor perhaps even a Shakespearean production at all. It is, however, extremely funny.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I have heard it is incredibly funny.
Posted by Pelegius (Member # 7868) on :
Yeah, it is, although we had to go through a fairly vigorous self-censorship process and we are just hoping to avoid too much outside censorship (our school has no official policy on such issues and has performed plays with material some, i.e. the non-denomonational preachers who send their kids here, might find offensive. Les Mis was performed uncut, despited sexual refrences and mild profanity, but most other plays have had significant amounts removed.)
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
I've seen the show a few times and can't really remember which parts are that offensive. Unless you mean "The Kiss".
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by rivka: I all but minored in English. I took lots of upper-division English courses, and narrowly avoided the 10 series (just took 10A). And I still disagree with your assessment. *shrug*
"all but minored"
so you took 2 or 3 classes? What do you know about it? We didn't go to same school after all, so your experience is bound to vary.
Edit: My assessment being that the classes are not contiguous quarter to quarter, or that professors tend to cram too much into a quarter? I made a number of assesments. If you are disagreeing with my assertion that classes do not connect from quarter to quarter, then at my university you would be flat wrong. There is not a single English class which continues from another class, in which it is required to do them both, and in sequence. Even if a class is required as a pre-req, that is highly negotiable at the UC, and it certainly doesn't matter when and where you get the pre-reqs done. There is no organized continuation or structure in that way.
This is in stark contrast to the music program, which requires a continuous two years and about 20 classes which are shared with all the same students and a small group of teachers.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: "all but minored"
so you took 2 or 3 classes? What do you know about it? We didn't go to same school after all, so your experience is bound to vary.
Actually, I took all the courses required for English minors except for 10B and 10C (I really, really hated 10A). And the syllabi at the various UC schools tends to overlap quite a bit.
But feel free to continue disregarding my opinion.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
I just was a bit perplexed by the "all but minored" qualification. The English minor is not very many classes, and I would think that if you had taken "a bunch" of English classes, you would agree with me anyway, and you'd have your minor for that matter.
Since I am near completion of an English major, I probably have more of a feel for how the courses map out. I also didn't have to take 10A and 10B, (that's shakespeare right?) Because I did a summer abroad session on Shakespeare. And anyway, only one of those is required for a major. There may actually be more continuity for minors because of the fewer number of possible classes. I will have to look at the reqs when I get a chance.
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
Reading up on reqs at UCD, I see that the English minor requirements are 5 upper div classes and one lower div class, Eng. 1 or 3 (or AP credit).
4 must be lit courses. That is all here. No continuation, no other requirements.
As for the music minor, We music majors laugh about that one, because we never see the music minors. None of the minor classes are even applicable to a major- kind of unbelievable really.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Looks like the current English minor at UCLA is not that different than UCD's. (As I'd expect.) I could just be misremembering, but I certainly recall there being both more requirements, and more specific requirements back when I was a student. (Of course, the minor was introduced when I was a junior, and that was over 10 years ago. It's quite possible they changed it since then.)
It did include 142A. I loved that course!
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
"English 10A, 10B and 10C must be taken with a grade of C or better."
This does denote a progression which is not present in the UCD curriculum, which is ANY 5 upper div courses, 4 of which are in literature. 20 units in all if you have your APs in order.
I don't have access to the course descriptions, but I can tell you that there is no 10A 10B or 10C in the English major at all at UCD, I just checked. The equivelant courses might be the fourties (that's intro to poetry, lit, criticism, and fiction), or the new thirties. The core units have been recently diversified between the 30s and 40s at UCD so that no-one ends up taking all the same ones. Rather a shame.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
UC Davis course descriptions are here (Programs and Courses).
Going off what I see, it looks like 30A&B are roughly equivalent to 10B&C; I don't see an equivalent to 10A. (You can see the UCLA catalog here if you're curious.)
Actually, what is fascinating to me is that a brief skim of English course offerings from the two schools shows significantly more sequence-courses at UCLA than at UCD. (UCLA: The M101 series, the M102 series, the M104 series, the M105 series, 107, 108, 111C-F, 115, 140, 141, 142, etc., etc. series.; UCD: the 46 series, the 110 series, 113, 117, 150, 155, 158, 161 . . . and not much more.) Not only does UCLA have more sequences, they aren't just survey courses, but thematic groups.
Fascinating!
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
I meant UCLA course descripts, I know all the UCD ones! Plus I was just on Registrar.ucd that's where I got the minor info.
edit: of you provided the link. How nice!
quote:Actually, what is fascinating to me is that a brief skim of English course offerings from the two schools shows significantly more sequence-courses at UCLA than at UCD. (UCLA: The M101 series, the M102 series, the M104 series, the M105 series, 107, 108, 111C-F, 115, 140, 141, 142, etc., etc. series.; UCD: the 46 series, the 110 series, 113, 117, 150, 155, 158, 161 . . . and not much more.) Not only does UCLA have more sequences, they aren't just survey courses, but thematic groups.
If you look at the reqs on those, for instance the 150s, or the 40s, you'll see that you can only take 1 class from the upper div groups, so they are not "series" courses, they are only a pool of courses and you choose one. You choose 2 from the 40s and 2 from the 30s, and one from each group of upper divs, plus three elective from any group, or from a group of elective only courses. There are actually no courses that are designed to be taken in sequence, even if they are numbered in sequence.
So for instance, I can take (did take) 147 American Lit 1950-present, which precludes me getting credit for 146 Brit lit.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Upon review, it looks like most (maybe all) of the UCLA courses are also not really sequences either, except for the 10 series. (That is, they are not required to be taken consecutively.) OTOH, I'm pretty sure you can take at least some of the groups in sequence. Although I'd have to ask a current English major to be sure.
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Perhaps you might wish to expand upon it?
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Please do not make the same mistake. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Besides you should never assume anything : "it makes an a s s out of u and me - a s s u m e! Just a little friendly advice. ![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)