So, this is pretty interesting. Some guy was digging up bogland to make commercial potting soil when he saw this book sticking out of the muddy bog ahead of the bucket of his bulldozer.
It's a book of Psalms dating to 800-1000 AD, and it was open to Psalm 83 - which, from what I read online, talks about nations trying to destroy Israel, and a call to God to wipe them out.
Pretty interesting time to unearth that, no?
Posted by Eduardo St. Elmo (Member # 9566) on :
Don't read too much into it, okay?
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
Just sayin'.
Posted by Eduardo St. Elmo (Member # 9566) on :
Hey man, don't have a cow! I'm not trying to diss you. In fact, I'm always interested when archeological discoveries are made. More information to try and fit into the puzzle that is our view of the past. Personally, I think the fact that the book was found opened to a Psalm that appears to be very suitable at this time is just coincidence. But I also know that there's bound to be people who will see this as irrefutable proof that God exist and he's letting us know that he's unhappy with the state of affairs down here on Earth. The discussion would not be unlike the one between Jules and Vincent, after six bullets missed them at point blank range. In the the end it comes down to your willingness to believe.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
I just think it's a hell of a coincidence, actually. I wanted to mention it and link the article just for other people's potential interest.
I'm really curious how they're going to restore it and/or just turn the pages without destroying it. Quick thinking on the part of the engineer guy to cover it with moist soil immediately.
Posted by TrapperKeeper (Member # 7680) on :
Just sayin' ≠ Having a cow
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
quote:It's a book of Psalms dating to 800-1000 AD, and it was open to Psalm 83 - which, from what I read online, talks about nations trying to destroy Israel, and a call to God to wipe them out.
Pretty interesting time to unearth that, no?
As opposed to what other time? Seems to me that from a certain point of view this would be pertinent to certain people ever since there first was a nation of Israel to try to destroy.
Just sayin. Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
Very true.
I guess it's like it being open to a psalm saying to beware natural disasters, or one explaining how water is wet.
quote:Israel looks at Esther being in the right place at the right time, and sees a miracle. Amalek looks at the tiny State of Israel defeating enormous Arab armies in six days and sees military skill. Israel sees the sacred even in the profane. Amalek sees the profane even in the sacred.
I'm just saying'.
Posted by vonk (Member # 9027) on :
It is pretty amazing that there are incredible finds like that being made still. It is obviously not true, but I tend to feel like there isn't a stone that hasn't been turned in the past 1000 years. And for it to have survived that long in the mud! Incredible.
I'd be really interested in finding out what other artifacts are still buried in that area. They mentioned in the article that there is a team exploring the bog, but it is also being turned into commercial property, so I wonder how long and extensively they'll search. If there was this religious text there, I would assume it is an indication of some sort of dwelling or (semi)permanent landmark. Unless someone was just riding through and it fell out of his pack. I dunno, but it certainly is intersting and I hope there is some follow up.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
When the mundane is labeled "miraculous", it's the meaning of "miraculous" that changes, not the nature of the mundane. Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
quote:I'm really curious how they're going to restore it and/or just turn the pages without destroying it. Quick thinking on the part of the engineer guy to cover it with moist soil immediately.
Yes, this is going to be quite a challenge. I'm not sure I could take the pressure. I mean, if you screw up, you, personally, have just lost something irrecoverable. On the other hand, if you succeed . . .
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
When I studied medieval ireland in Galway, I found out that this happens more often than you think - and more often than not, the owner of the land just bulldozes through rather than notify archaelogists.
There are "faerie mounds" all over Ireland, in fields and farms and other stretches of property. Many of these are old medieval dwellings covered over by dirt, with grass grown on top of the pile. They end up looking like little hills in the middle of flat fields, and superstition kept them from being dug up or bulldozed.
Developers have no superstitions.
We were discussing a particular mound in our class where a farmer wanted to bulldoze a section of his property that had never been used for agriculture before. He submitted paperwork to the government tell them what he wanted to do, and they sent in a team of archaeologists just to check it out.
What they found was the most complete and intact early medieval dwelling to date, complete with tools, wool insulation between woven stick walls, clothing, etc. Everything to the letter from what was legally allowable for a certain class of farmer according to this ancient text - which until that point had seemed overly specific, but in reality all the pieces were there in the dig.
The farmer told them they had 72 hours to clear the whole thing out before he bulldozed it anyway. He didn't want it to be an attraction, he just wanted to plant that field.
Pretty crazy what some people find valuable and others just don't.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
quote:The farmer told them they had 72 hours to clear the whole thing out before he bulldozed it anyway. He didn't want it to be an attraction, he just wanted to plant that field.
Pretty crazy what some people find valuable and others just don't.
It's amazing that with that attitude he even bothered to notify the government at all.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
What does it take to make a miricle these days? It seems that if God where to work any harder to get a message out in a more obviously miracoulous manner he would need to write 'Protect Isreal' across the sky over the US using the Aurora Borialis (And then it would still be called a Jewish trick)
BC
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
quote:Originally posted by KarlEd: When the mundane is labeled "miraculous", it's the meaning of "miraculous" that changes, not the nature of the mundane.
Why is that any different than saying "When the miraculous is labeled 'mundane', it's the meaning of 'mundane' that changes, not the nature of the miraculous"?
I'm honestly curious. I don't think that everything is miraculous, but you seem fairly convinced that everything is mundane.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:What does it take to make a miricle these days?
I understand that card tricks have recently been disallowed.
Yes, even the really good ones.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:What does it take to make a miricle these days?
When I found my first American edition of Tale of Two Cities, there was a bookmark in there for foot cream. Miracle? You decide.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
quote:It's amazing that with that attitude he even bothered to notify the government at all.
If I remember, it had something to do with zoning. To declare that part of his land as being used for agriculture, he had to submit paperwork to the government. They sent out a team, found stuff, and he said "so what, I'm gonna plow it" - as was my original intention.
My prof said many times people plow first, then submit paperwork second after everything's already destroyed, but that there are hundreds of mounds all over ireland that haven't been investigated because they are on private property, and quite frankly, there are just so many that it would be impossible to dig up them all.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: When I found my first American edition of Tale of Two Cities, there was a bookmark in there for foot cream. Miracle? You decide.
Well, it depends. Are you bunion prone?
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
quote:The farmer told them they had 72 hours to clear the whole thing out before he bulldozed it anyway. He didn't want it to be an attraction, he just wanted to plant that field.
Pretty crazy what some people find valuable and others just don't.
Well, cities and suburbs are destroying some of the best farmland in the U.S. all the time... for shopping malls, convenience stores, parking lots, tacky housing developments...
Pretty crazy what some people find valuable and others just don't... isn't it?
(FlyingCow, I'm not ascribing this point of view to you, and I wish that the farmer HAD given archaeologists more time to study the site. I just wanted to point out that the farmer probably didn't want to take good farmland out of production.)
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
A strange thought occurred to me over lunch, and I think I may just write a fantasy short story about it. This book has been open to that page about the nations aligned against Israel for 1200 years, and possibly longer. And in that time, Israel has had to deal with a lot of nations trying to destroy it.
What if that's the cause of the struggles? Wouldn't it then behoove us to close the book? What would happen if we turned to a different page? Any psalms of peace and love jump to mind?
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
FC, That's a pretty cool idea. I have a picture of a kid playing with the magic book like a toy.
---
As for miracles, I'm thinking about starting the Church of the Leprechaun. Warning: link may shake you faith in the world you think you know.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I love -- love -- that idea. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
FlyingCow, that's a really interesting idea. I'd love to read the story when you've written it.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Did anyone else read this title as "Irish Blog" and get really confused for a second or two?
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
You know, from a geological perspective, it may be just as interesting if there is Medieval Bog found in the Irish Book...
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
That does not make sense THT as the bog would have continued to follow the flow of time, becoming a renaissance bog, a reformation bog, etc until it became the modern bog it is today, a book does not really work that way.
The miracle would have been more pointed if the text discussing the Israel situation had been highlighted or something or a foot note at the bottom with the owners handwriting saying something like, "The're sorry about the nails, now stop messing with Israel."
Posted by TheHumanTarget (Member # 7129) on :
quote: That does not make sense THT as the bog would have continued to follow the flow of time, becoming a renaissance bog, a reformation bog, etc until it became the modern bog it is today, a book does not really work that way.
Dirt trapped inside containers or pressed between pages may have a different chemical make-up from the surrounding dirt. Also, based on the types of material captured on/between the pages, a possible origin location could be deduced.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Many times, coincidence can be too good to be true.
I'm wondering how authentic it is. Or if it was found and moved, or faked, or the page turned.
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
That book has been missing for 1000+ years? Think of the library fines!
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
I really hope the book turns out to be geniune. I wonder if it's some sort of education tool, as the page was describing Psalm 83 and not just restating it.
Here's hoping they can study it in greater detail. Discoveries like this really bring out the wannabe-archaeologist in me. Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
What I wouldn't give to just get to look at an image of a single page. Just one.
I love these types of discoveries. Maybe someone in Germany will turn up the manuscript I need? It'd be nice, anyway.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
FC, that story idea is awesome, please, please write it. If you don't, give permission up to someone else just so it gets written.
I saw a traveling exhibit of the Dead Sea Scrolls, and just looking at them....it just really got to me. To think of the written word, surviving that long...and I only saw fragments. I am blown away and moved to tears when I see illuminated manuscripts. Like Eaquae, what I wouldn't give to see that book in person....
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I'm curious Belle and Eaquae, do you value autographed copies of things too?
I'm just wondering because this is something that'd get an "eh" from me, much like autographs do. Which is not to say I see anything wrong with other people being excited by either one. It just doesn't stoke my engine. But I wonder if possibly they are related.
edit: Oooh, or first editions?
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
Autographed copies are good.
First editions are better.
Manuscripts hundreds of years old are to DIE for.
I can see the words themselves, and if they're in Latin, read them myself and not via translation. Hopefully within the next year or two I will gain the skills to read them "as is," not even written out in modern, expanded script. They're original words of people who lived and thought differently. They're... history. Alive history.
If I'd had a spare $200-500US this past May, I would totally have bought a page of medieval manuscript at Kalamazoo.
It's just... It's just amazing.
*slightly jealous of Belle*
Oh, and I should add that the manuscript I said I needed, I need not just because it would be terribly cool, but because it would solve some really annoying puzzles I've been wrestling over. There's lots of manuscripts out there, but what I want doesn't fit any of the established MS families and it would be just an amazing find.
Alas, I don't think Germany is known for its bogs with books inside.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
I would actually not buy the page of medieval manuscript - I'd much rather see it stay in the manuscript. Most of those pages (at least as it's been imparted to me) are taken out of private collector's books and sold to make a quick dollar (or few hundred). Since it's difficult to tell whence the pages come, I personally would rather not condone the practice and see the books donated to public trust. I know this isn't always the case - it can't be. But I would rather not take the chance. Just my take on it.
For which manuscripts, if I may ask, are you searching?
Personally, I'm super-excited for these to be released. Yay Greek lit!
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
Given the venue, if the seller hadn't been legit, I would have been shocked to the core. You don't put 4,000 professional, fanatical medievalists together in a room and try to sell them illegal manuscripts. I would never buy something off of ebay, though, unless it was fully intact (a whole book).
I would seriously consider sacrificing my left arm if I could get my hands on whatever manuscript (or even just one of the MS in the family) of the Book of Twenty-Four Philosophers was circulating around Germany c. 1320-1360, especially among the Dominicans. (There are discoveries in medieval studies still to be made, lots of them!)
Posted by Lissande (Member # 350) on :
Yes, I so, totally, completely read that as "Irish Blog." Oh, the confusion, it was huge.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
quote:Originally posted by starLisa:
quote:Originally posted by KarlEd: When the mundane is labeled "miraculous", it's the meaning of "miraculous" that changes, not the nature of the mundane.
Why is that any different than saying "When the miraculous is labeled 'mundane', it's the meaning of 'mundane' that changes, not the nature of the miraculous"?
There's no difference. It's a matter of perspective. I (perhaps wrongly) took your initial post in this thread as a little jab at me for poo-pooing the idea that this was some miraculous message because it appeared at this time as if Israel being under threat was somehow unique to this time. Your post seemed to be saying something akin to "The Godly see miracles, the profane just the profane." At face value that's probably true to a certain degree. My only rebuttal was that whatever a thing is, slapping a label on it doesn't make it that thing.
quote:I'm honestly curious. I don't think that everything is miraculous, but you seem fairly convinced that everything is mundane.
I haven't accused you of believing everything is miraculous. I'm fairly certain if it were a copy of the Koran saying something about destroying the enemies of Allah you'd probably not take it as a miraculous message.
On the other hand, I also don't see where you can extrapolate one skeptical post providing pretty clear reasons why I'm skeptical into my being "fairly convinced that everything is mundane".
Posted by starLisa (Member # 8384) on :
My apologies. I read too much into it.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
No worries. Thanks for that. Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
There are good reasons for being skeptical. In this case, the Psalm doesn't mention Israel, --it's the next Psalm over, according to the National Museum of Ireland.
quote: "The above mention of Psalm 83 has led to misconceptions about the revealed wording and may be a source of concern for people who believe Psalm 83 deals with 'the wiping out of Israel'," the museum said in its clarification.
The confusion arose because the manuscript uses an old Latin translation of the Bible known at the Vulgate, which numbers the psalms differently from the later King James version, the 1611 English translation from which many modern texts derive.
"The Director of the National Museum of Ireland ... would like to highlight that the text visible on the manuscript does not refer to wiping out Israel but to the 'vale of tears'," the museum said.
The vale of tears is in Psalm 84 in the King James version.
The Vale of Tears, The Valley of Weeping--good terms for the Middle East nowadays. Perhaps that's God's message.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
Just my take on it.