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I think it would be great if it could help people who are genetically predisposed to obesity, but I wouldn't want it to become a quick fix for an unhealthy lifestyle.

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Originally posted by Noemon:
I was reading about this on the BBC News this morning. I wouldn't want to be one of the human test subjects, I can tell you that.

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"What is surprising about this study is that by producing antibodies to block ghrelin it works as well as it does.

"This is an important proof of principle but there are problems. For example if you develop antibodies against something you can't get rid of them very easily, so if there's anything bad you can't undo it.

"And since ghrelin is present in the brain you might start an immune system response against the brain. It's not necessarily a very safe thing to do - I wouldn't want to be a volunteer."

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Good heavens, why not??? Are you also one of those opposed to the HPV vaccine because we shouldn't interfere with God's punishment for promiscuity?

Obesity is a health problem, not divine punishment for immoral habits. We should be treating it as a health problem, and curing it in whatever way possible. If it allows people to eat tasty food while losing weight, so much the better.

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I wouldn't want it to become a quick fix for an unhealthy lifestyle.

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Originally posted by ssasse:
I wouldn't like to be the guinea pig for this one, either, but I can understand that it may end up being a literal lifesaver for some.

My current plan is to leave early for work and walk the 3 miles to get there. I do believe I will need access to a locker and washcloth, though, if this plan is to work. A change of clothes will be a must.

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Originally posted by ssasse:
I wouldn't like to be the guinea pig for this one, either, but I can understand that it may end up being a literal lifesaver for some.

My current plan is to leave early for work and walk the 3 miles to get there. I do believe I will need access to a locker and washcloth, though, if this plan is to work. A change of clothes will be a must.

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I lost a lot of weight once by walking to work 5 days a week, half of it uphill. There was a park across the street; I carried extra deodorant, a change of clothes, a hairbrush, etc. in a backpack, and made the change in the park bathroom, washed up, then walked over to work. I usually got there a bit early and had time to relax around the park for a few minutes before going over. It was nice. And very effective (combined with calorie cutting)-- I got down to a size 9, the smallest I've ever been as an adult (probably the smallest I'll ever be, my bone structure is extremely large around the hips and shoulders especially.) That was, let's see, a drop of three dress sizes.
 

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Posted by ssasse (Member # 9516) on :
 
Welll ... it took me two hours this morning, but I stopped at this cute little cafe for a Bubble Tea (of which the two young Japanese women at the counter were out, but this necessitated much discussion in their native language and many apologies in English, so I ended up with a 1/2-priced chai latte and a day-old muffin with cranberries and walnuts, now saved for lunch); and I was distracted by the Enormous sweet blackberries growing by the railroad tracks,* with huge soft druplets just bursting with flavor (my fingertips are stained purple, still); and I had to stop by the VanDusen Botanical Gardens to sign up for membership.

I expect it would be about 45 minutes if I did it at a good clip. I'll try to find out tonight.

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*This city is crazy. Everywhere there are overflowing blackberry bushes, and nobody gives them a second glance. I'm beginning to wonder if there isn't a law against gorging onself on the public berries, but I haven't been able to find one, despite searching. Perhaps it is more of a social stigma thing -- "she's a ... berry-picker" (*haughty sniff).

The raspberry bushes by the side of the tracks were simply full of dried-up little raspberries. So many that the crows couldn't even eat a tenth of them. What is wrong with this city? The land is throwing itself at us in gustatorial excess!

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Edited to add: Hmmm. On rereading my post, I see a certain flaw in the weight-loss plan becoming rapidly apparent.
 

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Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
 
Don't stop, keep going. Living in Nevada, this place that you're describing where something besides sagebrush grows on its own is enthralling.
 

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Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
 
I'm with Allegra on this, weight gain is a handy notifier that you are 1) not getting enough exercise and 2) not eating healthily. If we have a quick fix for it people will just get a vaccine or pop a pill and not think twice. They won't realize that they are living extremely unhealthily and won't try and get more exercise and try and change their diets. It's great for people who are genetically predisposed to it and have trouble fighting it even with lots of exercise and a healthy diet. But I wouldn't want it being given out to people who are simply a little chubby and just need to get more exercise and eat better.
 

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Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
 
Just pop an all purpose adult vitamin with the vaccine and your set.

Well when we find a way to get the benefits of a 1 hour work out in pill form THEN we are set!
 

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Posted by Edgehopper (Member # 1716) on :
 
Yes, but weight gain causes health problems on its own regardless of diet. If we can alleviate weight gain with a drug, we should. You might as well say, "HPV is a handy notifier that you're sleeping around too much," or "Lung cancer is a handy notifier that you're smoking too much." But no, you'd rather people suffer the consequences of their sin.

Why should people have to eat tofu and sprouts for any reason other than their health? What's wrong with eating McDonald's every day if you can cure the health problems it might cause?
 

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Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
 

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What's wrong with eating McDonald's every day if you can cure the health problems it might cause?

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This city is crazy. Everywhere there are overflowing blackberry bushes, and nobody gives them a second glance. I'm beginning to wonder if there isn't a law against gorging onself on the public berries, but I haven't been able to find one, despite searching.

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Posted by Edgehopper (Member # 1716) on :
 

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Nobody is saying there's wrong with it. You're the one that keeps trying to draw absurd parallels and equate obesity to a moral deficency, not anybody else.

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Eating McDonalds every day is a very unhealthy choice regardless of whether it effects your weight.

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Originally posted by Edgehopper:

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Eating McDonalds every day is a very unhealthy choice regardless of whether it effects your weight.

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Looks like someone said there's something wrong with it. I didn't think I was being delusional...

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Perhaps it is more of a social stigma thing -- "she's a ... berry-picker" (*haughty sniff).

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...and by their purple-stained fingertips shall you know them.

Seriously, though, have you seen anybody else wandering around with purple fingers?

I love the image of you gorging yourself on fruit as you walk to work.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 

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Originally posted by Edgehopper:

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Nobody is saying there's wrong with it. You're the one that keeps trying to draw absurd parallels and equate obesity to a moral deficency, not anybody else.

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Eating McDonalds every day is a very unhealthy choice regardless of whether it effects your weight.

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Looks like someone said there's something wrong with it. I didn't think I was being delusional...

Both Allegra and Alcon said that the problem is that people will live unhealthily despite the obesity vaccine. But what's the problem with eating burgers and such (alongside a multivitamin and possibly cholesterol reducing drugs) other than obesity? There's nothing inherently wrong with such a diet, just with the effects it might cause, of which obesity is the worst.

You can't let the perfect (everyone eats the way doctors say they should) be the enemy of the good (people lose weight and reduce obesity-caused problems.)

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Stop being such an idiot and read what is written, rather than what you think it says, man.

There are many things wrong with such a diet, and weight gain isn't the wort part of it, not by a long shot.


Allegra said, more than once, that such a pill is a good thing. She also said that it could me a bad thing in some ways. and said it shouldn't be a quick fix for a bad lifestyle.


I'll go one further, myself....most people do deserve to get fat if they eat too much. Lots of people have trouble losing weight, or understanding why they gain so much weight. A lot of those people may have a genetic predisposition towards weight gain, and a drug like this might help a lot. It could make gastric bypass surgery a thing of the past, which would be wonderful considering it's risks.


But if the only reason you can't lose weight is you overeat, or don't care enough to work out, then this pill shouldn't work. It is a medical treatment, not a crib sheet for life, and it will undoubtedly have side effects and risks like every other drug. It probably won't change cholesterol levels, or plaque in the veins and arteries. It won't change the diet to a healthy one at all, as it will still be fried food, lacking most (if not all) nutrients. Also, supplements often are not absorbed by the body the same way, or at the same rate, as nutrients in food are, and are often far less effective than eating well. The more drugs you take the more chance of drug interactions, and there are always side effects to any drug treatment.


I thought of those reasons in less than 2 minutes. I am sure there are many more reasons why this treatment may be a good thing, but not a cure all solution.


So stop pretending you have a right to be offended, and start using your head....and your manners.

Or don't...it's your call.
 

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Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
 
I suspect this sort of vaccine would be a kind of last resort, like gastric bypass surgery. I certainly wouldn't want my immune system targeting a hormone that my body produces--as has been pointed out, we don't know all of the function of ghrelin. Even if human trials show it to be relatively safe, I think I wouldn't get the vaccine just to lose 10-20 pounds. And it's possible that's all the weight loss the vaccine will cause. Still, I think it's great that researchers are looking into ways to help obese people. I hope the vaccine does pan out.
 

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Posted by ssasse (Member # 9516) on :
 
Noemon, I haven't. I have seen one old lady in a bird hat berry-picking, and that's about it. The bird hat was kind of a downer for the the whole "it ain't crazy" thing, though.

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I've never been able to muster up much disgust for those who eat too much. My own monthly cycles regularly send me spinning from "I can't be bothered to eat anything" to "Oh, sweet jimminy cheeses, can I cram all of Chicago into the gaping maw of my mouth?"

If I was always at the state I experience for the one or two days pre-period, I would not be able to wedge myself through a standard-size doorway. I accept this, and I marvel that I can maintain the illusion of complete free will at sporadic points throughout my life. It's a sweet, sweet lie, and I suck it down like a nice, plump, blueberry engorged with the juicy richness of a thous-- ah, what was I saying, again?

[ August 04, 2006, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: ssasse ]
 

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Posted by Edgehopper (Member # 1716) on :
 
Sorry, Allegra--this is a hot button for me and I was having a bad day anyways. We've all seen thin people who seem to eat whatever they want, rarely if ever exercising without gaining an ounce. Too often, these discussions seem to turn into "Fat people are fat because they eat like pigs, and skinny people eat the way they're supposed to," which just isn't true. I figure that anything that makes losing weight easier, assuming no significant side effects, is a good thing.

If it removes weight gain as a warning sign for heart disease, etc., then I think we should just deal with that problem separately.

I for one welcome our new pharmaceutical overlords, and would like to volunteer my services in their chemical mines
 

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Posted by ssasse (Member # 9516) on :
 
I love Cary Tennis, the advice columnist from Salon.com. I think he is brilliant, thoughful, and a philosopher who writes most carefully and kindly.

Here's [one of] his take[s] on obesity from 2004 (you might need to watch an ad to link into Salon for free, if you are not a member):

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Why do you feel insulted? You probably feel that your boss is, by indirection, speaking disparagingly about your weight, your food choices and your willpower, as if each of us bears a patriotic duty to fight our appetites, to struggle mightily against our eating even as we slather our very souls in the rich nectar of slaughter and science.

I have felt for some time that the obsession with fat is a peculiar cultural sickness that has to do with feminist struggles, social class, professional anxiety, war, privilege, envy, Protestantism, virtue and capitalism.
...
Shanker, who wrote "The Fat Girl's Guide to Life," spoke eloquently about getting over the whole thing about being fat. She told how one day she got into an elevator and a lady said, in obvious reference to Shanker's weight, that she herself would have taken the stairs. Rather than absorb the cutting remark in silent shame, she turned to the lady and said, "I wish you had." That was pretty good. The overall point being, we don't need to walk around being afraid of being fat. If you're fat, OK. If you're thin, OK. Don't you have some work to do?*

And Campos in "The Obesity Myth" says what I had been thinking better than I could: "Thinness has a metaphorical significance in America today," he writes. "Americans -- and especially American elites -- value thinness for precisely the same reason someone suffering from anorexia nervosa does: because not eating means not giving in to desire. Strangely, what the American elites consider most desirable is a body whose appearance signals a triumph of the will over desire itself. Thus, bodily virtue is not so much indicated by thinness per se, but rather by an achieved thinness. Ultimately the war on fat is both a cause and a consequence of the transformation of the Protestant work ethic into the American diet ethic.

*[italics added]

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(One of the things I like about CT is that he knows good writing and good thinking when he sees it, and he isn't afraid to cite it.)

I'm often struck by how much of what I dislike in the world -- especially what I find worthy of ranting and raving about, which is entirely too much for those who know and love me -- reflects something I am troubled about in my own past or current situation. This, of course, is a cliche, but it is one I am particularly fond of. Thank goodness people love me anyway. (And please don't show them the errors of their ways.)

I remember sitting buck naked in front of a mirror when I was in preteen years, my back turned to the reflection and my eyes looking over my shoulder. Was there a curve there? And I practiced sucking in my tummy even as I sat. This progressed to duct-taping my waist (when you sweat, it no longer clings, but it still restricts). And lifting my father's diuretic pills, and eating dirt and leaves to fill my belly with minimal calories, and so on and so on.

Now, whenever I think of obesity and body image, I think as a clinician (of the ratio of weight stress on knees, of the changing response to insulin, and of the immense power of media on young people who will be wrapping themselves in duct tape, and turning down the air conditioner to burn more calories, and so forth) as well as my own disgust with and pity for my younger self. I was pretty then, in my own quirky way. The quirkiness had more to do with trying to cut my own bangs than any imagined saddlebags, that's for sure. But all of that emotion from back then comes flooding in, and all of the emotion from now, and all of the anger and responsibility and Protestant work ethic, all of it -- comes roaring back through my head as if caught in the midst of a river rushing headlong to the sea.

And I pretty much set it aside. I concentrate on specific, tangible goals, I think about how hard life is for every last one of us on this planet, and I try to grant myself as much charity as I am willing to do others.

Nobody -- nobody -- who is obese in this society is going to be suprised or enlightened by anyone else telling them that this is so. They know. I do believe, myself, that finding some way to encourage whatever positive aspects there are in our own and our friends' lives is most likely to lead to the bigger good changes overall. Being happy has a way of inciting interest in more happiness, and if the most functional life (whatever that may be) is the goal, then inciting happiness seems to be an excellent thing to strive for.

I don't live up to this all the time, and I am not firmly settled on this as an answer. However, should a vaccine like this make life easier overall for those who are obese, I suspect that increased activity outdoors, more interest in more diverse pursuits (physical and mental), and an increased willingness to take healthy risks (like learning to swim, or flying out to visit grandchildren, or hiking trips along the Appalachian Trail) might well result.

It's always a mixed bag of results, anyway. There will always be positive and negative fallout from any policy. Still, I suspect that inciting happiness is the way to go, all things considered. This does presuppose a rather optimistic view of human nature as well as a pragmatic mindset, neither of which may be convincing to some. Understandably. So it goes.

[ August 04, 2006, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: ssasse ]
 

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Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
Lord, it's criminal that you don't want children, Sara. I wish you were my mother. Y'know, since you're married and all.
 

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Posted by Allegra (Member # 6773) on :
 

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Sorry, Allegra--this is a hot button for me and I was having a bad day anyways. We've all seen thin people who seem to eat whatever they want, rarely if ever exercising without gaining an ounce. Too often, these discussions seem to turn into "Fat people are fat because they eat like pigs, and skinny people eat the way they're supposed to," which just isn't true. I figure that anything that makes losing weight easier, assuming no significant side effects, is a good thing.

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No problem. To be honest the thin people who never gain an ounce annoy me too. It really isn't fair that some people can eat a whole pizza in a setting a stay a size 2 and other people exercise and eat right and they still aren't the size they want to be.

As a 19 year-old in America I am very weight conscious. I have to work much harder then most people my age to not gain weight. Part of me would love a vaccine that would make it so i could eat whatever i wanted when I wanted it and be thin.

I was just pointing out that being thin is not the only reason to eat a good diet. I do not have enough faith in our understanding of the body to think that we are capable of treating all of the other problems the unhealthy diet would cause. Not to mention the side effects that a lot of medication has. I just think that in general it is good to fix what you can with your health in more natural ways.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Sara, that was a wonderful post.
 

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Posted by Sharpie (Member # 482) on :
 
I know I'm dittoing, but -- Sara, that was a wonderful post.
 

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Posted by ssasse (Member # 9516) on :
 


(That totally made my day, especially coming from you all. Thank you.)
 

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Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
 

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Originally posted by Edgehopper:

Obesity is a health problem, not divine punishment for immoral habits. We should be treating it as a health problem, and curing it in whatever way possible. If it allows people to eat tasty food while losing weight, so much the better.

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Originally posted by Edgehopper:

I for one welcome our new pharmaceutical overlords, and would like to volunteer my services in their chemical mines

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Originally posted by SoaPiNuReYe:
They don't just put fat in those burgers, theres all sorts of artificial cow hormones and junk like that so any potential negative effects from those substances wouldn't be negated at all.

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Originally posted by Alcon:

My problem with it is that I am in general against turning to drugs and medications to solve problems that could be solved with out them.

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After quite a while of healthy eating and consulting his doc he was able to bring those levels down but he said it disgusted him to see how bad it was though there were no outward symptoms. He was a teenage walking heart attack.

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Originally posted by Edgehopper:
And yet fat people trying hard to eat healthy get the scorn of everyone else in society. Orinoco's exactly right...it absolutely sucks being fat. There's a reason obesity is highly correlated with depression, the two conditions cause each other. At least Wendy's brother could struggle with his health problems in private; it's much more painful to have to struggle with them in public. If drugs can solve the external problems, bring them on!

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I think you missed the point of her narrative.

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No, I got the point, I just chose to turn it to my own devious purposes. I'm a lawyer, remember?
 

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Posted by BaoQingTian (Member # 8775) on :
 
Hehe....good point
 

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Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
 
"these people...are obviously stupid."

There's a pill for that.
 

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