This is topic $50,000 in debt? Eek! in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.


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Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
 
So I've been looking over options for the future: from going to straight to teaching high school history to graduate school and all the way to more or less starting over with a new bachelor's degree in another field. Some options are a little more economical than others (teaching pays of course, certain grad school history programs cover tuition and play a stipend, etc.). The problem is that I'm not really interested as much in any of those things. Well that's not fully true; I'm sort of interested in teaching, but I'm very far from 100% sure that I want to do that (particularly for the rest of my life).

So I keep contemplating options and looking for other graduate paths and stuff. As I was looking, I stumbled across SMU's Guildhall game development program (one's just a certificate program, the other's a master's program). I send inquiries in about it, because to be honest (and hopefully not to sound too dorky) I've always wanted to work in that field.

Backstory: As a kid (and a teenager and a young adult), I played a lot of games. I was also always really creative, coming up with my own ideas and stories and such (things I would want to see in games if I could make them). At the end of 5th grade when they asked us what we wanted to be when we grew up, I answered honestly and withotu doubt "I want to be a game programmer." When I was 12, I taught myself a little bit of BASIC (enough to make some rudimentary programs). When I was 13, I taught myself HTML first (since it was easier) and then later C++. I spent hundreds of dollars on books about C++ programming and game programming and such. I have piles of these books. I researched schools that would help me in my dream to be a game programmer. I had a dream and a plan ot fulfill it.

At 17, my parents (while having lunch at a Chinese place with my brother and I) asked me what I planned on doing as far as college. I told them that I had looked into it and that I wanted to head to Digipen Institute for Technology. It was looked upon really well in the industry, it had a really serious curriculum (upper level mathematics, Physics, and Computer Science), and they had a high placement rate. I knew it was a bit expensive, but I knew what I wanted to do and I was willing to face the debt (although back then I really wasn't clear on how much college was supposed to cost). My parents gave me a sort of "you're kidding, right?" look. My brother started mocking me, telling me that my choice of school and career field was foolish. I looked at my parents for support (I thought that they'd support me in my dream, since they always told me I could do whatever I set my mind on). They just sort of shook their heads. I knew then that no one in my family was going to support me if I went there. Not being a very strong person, my dream sort of died there.

When I ended up going to UTD, it was mostly a monetary decision supported by my parents (UTD covers my tuition and fees, pays part of my rent at my apartment on-campus, and pays me a small amount to cover books and such). The other reason I sort of let myself get pushed into UTD was they were developing an Arts and Technology program to teach kids how to develop games and animation and hopefully place students in the game industry. I was hopeful for the program, and (since my education was being paid for by the school) my parents couldn't argue really. It seemed to be my way out. When I got to UTD though, I saw the program's fatal flaw: it's not serious at all. The math and science requirements are laughable (9 hours of any kind of math, even low level stuff like college algebra? 9 hours of any kind of science?). About the only thing they do well is the game development courses. Seeing that the program wasn't serious, I worried very much about graduating with a degree from it since I had no clue how the game companies would take such a degree. These worries continued for quite some time (compounded by the fact that my advisor made scheduling errors and got me kicked out of the CS classes I needed to continue). Finally I decided I needed to do something else at UTD, as I didn't think a degree in Arts and Technology from there would be very useful/valuable. I contemplated it for a long while and then I went for the lesser of all evils: history. Now I'm on my third year of history and I'm only two semesters from graduating with my degree, and I'm very dissatisfied.

So stumbling across this Guildhall program at SMU (which surprisingly has a 96% placement rate), I sort of felt my interest perk. I started to feel like I wanted to learn again, that there was actually something I wanted to do. My hopes started building. I started going over other programs, and I of course ended up back at Digipen. I described it like this to one of my friends last night: "Well I found a graduate program, but at the same time I sort of realized something. Then I felt my heart start beating again. Then I remembered the price tag involved. Then my heart stopped beating."

Digipen costs $58,520 for four years of tuition and fees (this doesn't include housing or books or transportation or anything). That's a huge, huge amount. If I went there, I would have to take out a huge loan. I feel like I would be paying it back for the next 20 years or something. On top of that, I have the nagging voice in the back of my head saying "Just watch, you'll go there and spend all that money, and then you still won't be happy with what you're doing." So yeah, I'm bummed. I wish I could just stumble across some money or something (of course, a lot of people probably wish for that) so I could get the education I want. Blah.
 
Posted by B34N (Member # 9597) on :
 
Honestly if you are worried about the moeny which a lot of people are and would be, don't do it. I am in a large amount of debt chasing down a dream, which I am sstill chasing. Personally, I went back to school for pretty much the same reasons and I don't regret it and would do it over again * someone once told me that education is something that no one can take from you * but I don't work int he field tha tI got my Grad degree in. I work in a field closely related to it though. If you find passion in something I would almost always say do it. It is better to do something and regret it than to not do something and regret it. That way at least you know for sure that the choice was wrong? Kind of dumb but it works for me.
 
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
 
The money is a big concern (since it's so much), and it's about the only thing keeping me from chasing after the dream.
 
Posted by B34N (Member # 9597) on :
 
I can't decide for you but I paid more than you and I am still fine. Just reconsolidate AFTER you graduate and set up a payment plan that fits your needs. Plus if I read the post correctly you want to go into game development and animation. Think about it, how many games are on the market right now andhow many CGI and 3D movies are in theater this summer alone.

Be Nike and JUST DO IT. take out some loans and sign up, but do A LOT of research ont eh program, make phone calls, talk to the people they ahve placed if they are reachable and get first hand knowledge before you drop the money. That's one thing I would have done, this way I knew more about what I was getting myself into.
 
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
 
That's only a little more than the amount I took for my student loan. Of course, that was in Norway where it was interest free for the duration of the studies, and I saved it up to pay for coming here. But anyway, the point is, it's not so much once you're actually getting paid; it just seems like a lot to someone at the entry level.
 
Posted by B34N (Member # 9597) on :
 
Good point King of Men
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Before you start taking out loans, look into what types of financial aid you may qualify for. There are lots of good sites that can help with that.

Like here.

It is likely you would still need loans to cover the difference. But this is an investment in your future. And student loans have interest and repayment rates far better than most loans.

Good luck making the decision!
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by King of Men:
Of course, that was in Norway where it was interest free for the duration of the studies,

That's true in the U.S. as well.
 
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
 
Oh come on, exorbitant student loans are a sign of adulthood! You're not an adult until you rack up enough student loans to be paying them for the next forty years!
 
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
There should be some sort of official celebration for the day the amount you have invested in your pension plan tops the amount you still owe on your student loans. It felt like such a turning point!
 
Posted by B34N (Member # 9597) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dkw:
There should be some sort of official celebration for the day the amount you have invested in your pension plan tops the amount you still owe on your student loans. It felt like such a turning point!

Then I am the most adult person I know who acts the least mature? [Big Grin]

[ August 09, 2006, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: B34N ]
 
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
I'm confused. Why do these math/science requirements make it a weak technology program?

-pH
 
Posted by Stasia (Member # 9122) on :
 
Well now is definitely the time to switch directions if you're going to. Following your dreams is important, but you need to be realistic about tradeoffs (which may absolutely be worth it to you--only you know that).

Owing that kind of money seems like it would be scary, especially once you're graduated and possibly thinking about settling down, buying a house, and starting a family. Of course, spending your life in an unsatisfying career wishing you'd only done something about it is pretty scary too.

Before jumping into any program costing more than $50,000, you should ask yourself the question: Would another similar program at a less expensive institute be acceptable or do I really want *this specific program*?

If your answer is that you want that specific program, and it's worth the debt tradeoff to you, you should absolutely do it.
 
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by pH:
I'm confused. Why do these math/science requirements make it a weak technology program?

-pH

Game programming, much more so than normal programming, is very math and science intensive. Particularly when you are doing 3D stuff with fancy realistic Physics.
 
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
 
Well... It's math, sure, but it's rather specialised stuff. It's basically all matrix-vector whatnot. And these days a lot of it is handled at the hardware level anyway. If you know your algebra, you can learn it in a couple of weeks; there's no need for a really broad course in math.
 
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
 
Well, I mean, it depends if it was the common curriculum math requirement.

Because we had both common curriculum math and major-specific math. I tested out of the common curriculum, took an honors math, and took two major-specific statistics courses. But they don't fall under the "math" category because they're in the business college.

-pH
 
Posted by MightyCow (Member # 9253) on :
 
I'll second Stasia's comment. See if you can't find a less expensive alternative that might get you started. If you get your foot in the door, a lot of larger companies will offer on the job training, or can have options to help you pay for school.

You may also find that a fancy degree isn't as important as work experience. I'm not an expert in the video game design field, but I worked as a professional web developer for years with an English degree and a lot of self-teaching.

The trick is to learn as much as you can, and get into an entry level job and work your butt off. You've already taught yourself a couple programming languages, why not pick up some books on game or level design and learn some of it yourself? I've heard of a handful of people who made their own levels for popular games and did such a good job that the game companies hired them on to be pros.

Certainly worth the effort if you've got the time and the inclination, but the money is a problem.
 
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
Do what you wanna do. Student loans suck, but not near as bad as being debt free in a career you hate.
 
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by King of Men:
Well... It's math, sure, but it's rather specialised stuff. It's basically all matrix-vector whatnot. And these days a lot of it is handled at the hardware level anyway. If you know your algebra, you can learn it in a couple of weeks; there's no need for a really broad course in math.

I disagree. So if you're a mechanic do you not need to know how internal combustion works? I mean, the engine does all that work at the hardware level anyway...

Bad example, I know. Humor me.

Just because the hardware does some work for you doesn't mean you should simply forget about it. It's theory, and understanding of those theories and practices dramatically helps planning for the end result.

Programming with the assumption that the hardware does all the work for you leads to sloppy programming, because people simply get careless. Bad code? No problem; the hardware will make it look good. Doesn't work that way.
 
Posted by Uprooted (Member # 8353) on :
 
quote:
On top of that, I have the nagging voice in the back of my head saying "Just watch, you'll go there and spend all that money, and then you still won't be happy with what you're doing."
pfresh, I wonder if that's just nerves or if it's you knowing yourself? Before committing, I would certainly do all I could to ensure that this is the course that you need in order to get where you want to be. Talk to students in the program, to graduates, and even to potential employers if you can to find out if this program is as golden as you perceive it to be now.

I'm not trying to discourage you from pursuing your dream. If you have the talent and inclination, you should definitely do what you love rather than becoming a half-hearted history teacher. But carefully examine whether this is the correct route. And if it is, you'll pay off that debt/investment.
 
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
 
In regards to the math stuff, yes the hardware can do a lot of it now, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't know how to do it (as someone else pointed out). I really believe that the seriousness of math and science in the schools that are perceived well is part of the reason that they are perceived so well.

As for people asking if there is a cheaper alternative, yes, there is. It's also a bit longer alternative in terms of how long I would still be in school. I could easily add a double major in CS at UTD and just add another 2-3 years onto my stay there (and 1 of those years would be fully covered by scholarship). After that, I could into something like the Guildhall program at SMU (which seems more catered towards people with a lot of college CS experienced). Overall this would be a bit cheaper than just going to Digipen for four years. It would require though the additional 2-3 years for the CS double major and then the year or two for the SMU certificate thing.

Uproote, I really don't know if the voice in my head is just nerves or if it's me knowing myself well. The voice is a persistant in my head though.
 
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by King of Men:
Of course, that was in Norway where it was interest free for the duration of the studies,

That's true in the U.S. as well.
Unless things have changed in the last few years, that's only true if you have a subsidized loan, which you have to qualify for. Most of my loans were not subsidized, which meant that I had the option of paying the accruing interest while I was in school or allowing it to capitalize. Either way, interest was accruing during school.

--Mel
 
Posted by Edgehopper (Member # 1716) on :
 
If you're sure you want to do that work, then take the loan--but if you have any doubts, I wouldn't. Otherwise, you end up at the end of the day trapped in a career you don't want. That's one of the frequent complaints of lawyers--they really don't like the job, but they felt trapped in it once they got their JD and working in a firm was the only way to pay off loans.
 
Posted by Wonder Dog (Member # 5691) on :
 
Are you sure that the programming side is where you want to end up? The content creation end of things is in high demand these days too. And most game studios will take you as long as your portfolio is pro-level, regardless of the nature your degree. Take a few months, get some software (photshop, 3ds Max/Maya), pound away at tutorials and such until you can produce your own work at a decent level, and hit the pavement with your demo reel. The key is to practice, practice, practice, and screw what your major is.
 
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by theCrowsWife:
Unless things have changed in the last few years, that's only true if you have a subsidized loan, which you have to qualify for.

Quite possibly; those are the ones I am familiar with. I didn't realize it was not true of all student loans.
 
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
 
I'm from the mindset where programmers aren't made; they're born. Or implemented, as the case may be.

To be a top tier developer requires less-than-normal thinking and methods, the ability to "think outside the box."

Now, a programmer with graphic experience has a goldmine waiting for them in the gaming industry. It's a necessity there; if a designer hands you a 3DStudio model and says "put this in the game," you have to be able to do more than just stare blankly at it.
 
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Wonder Dog:
Are you sure that the programming side is where you want to end up? The content creation end of things is in high demand these days too.

---> Knows very little about computer games.

What's the difference between content creation and programming? I mean in terms of skills and knowledge. Don't you have to program in order to create content?
 
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
 
I say go for it. Education and a house are the two things it makes good sound financial sense to invest in, and go into debt for. You will be making plenty, once you graduate. It will pay you back many times over to go ahead and follow your dream. Definitely you should get all the scholarship money you can manage, but then do loans for the rest. You'll pay it back with no problem.
 
Posted by Wonder Dog (Member # 5691) on :
 
quote:
Now, a programmer with graphic experience has a goldmine waiting for them in the gaming industry. It's a necessity there; if a designer hands you a 3DStudio model and says "put this in the game," you have to be able to do more than just stare blankly at it.
I totally second that, which is why I'm doing a second degree in CS after I'm done my BFA in New Media. :0) Ultimatley, though, I want to end up in academia/doing private studio work in the end. Althoug I'd love to hit up a gaming studio along the way.

quote:
What's the difference between content creation and programming? I mean in terms of skills and knowledge. Don't you have to program in order to create content?
In industry-speak, "content-creators" build models & environments, create animatics, compose music, engineer sound, etc. - ie. they create the content (visual and auditory) for the game. They need artistic experience, talent, a good (trained) eye/ear, and experience with the relative software (a 3D modeling package, photoshop, maybe some video software like After Effects or Combustion).

Programmers tweak the game engines, implement interfaces, build physics and other simulations, construct databases, etc. - ie. they make the content work together through code in the fun and entertaining way the player expects. They need strong math and analytical skills, the ability to "think outside the box" and solve problems, and the ability to code in a group environment.

Some "content creators" (read: artists) and programmers tend to antagonise each other. Artist: "We already have the engine, why do we need the linux-nerds to tweak it? Out models will sell the game."
Programmer: "Modelers and animators suck. Besides, everyone knows that in a few years all content will be algorithmically generated anyway. Content creators have no future, it belongs to the programmers!"

While the above comments are meant to be taken lightly, I've actually heard pompus, ignorant students of either profession say basically those things. Sheesh. If they were really smart, they'd learn more about both, 'cos the programmer with artistic skill and the artist with coding skill are generally the really smart/well-paid people.

But I digress.

Either way, pfresh, I recommend you find out all you can about the kind of game studio positions you're interested in. A Rat Named Dog and others on this board that actually work in gaming studios may be able to help clarify weather or not the big loan for Digipen is worth it.

Good luck. :0)
 
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
 
Upon spending some hours pondering stuff, I don't know if I'm so sure of my desire to do this that I would take out such a huge debt.

I'm thinking of actually doing this:

I will mix work on my current degree with work on a second degree in Arts and Technology. I will make up for the program's lack of seriousness by making myself take the upper level classes and all. Then I will hopefully be able to compile a decent portfolio of my work as a game programmer. When I graduate, I can try and get a job in that field (I would hope being a double major plus having a decent portfolio would give me a leg up), and if that fails I can always fall back on teaching. Of course this is just an idea at the moment. Knowing me, I'll probably get indecisive and change my mind in a few days.
 
Posted by Wonder Dog (Member # 5691) on :
 
That actually sounds like a great idea. Your previous experience as a student and education in history will allow you to bring something special to the Arts and Technology program, I'd wager.

I'm in a relativley new, small New Media department, and although some of the classes and profs can be underwhelming, I've challenged myself beyond the scope of what is simply required and I feel confident that I'll be able to get where I want with my education and drive. I'm sure you'll be able to do the same. :0)
 
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
 
I know it's probably written above somewhere, but where are you geograpically located again? Or, at least, where will you be attending?

If you want to go in to programming, especially game design, geographic location in the US can be a major factor in your success. I live in Miami, Florida, which is far from being a hotbed of game development. I've had job offers and possibilities from the hotbeds - Dallas (id Software, Rogue), Madison Wisconsin (Raven Software), and Seattle (Valve Software, Microsoft) - but haven't been in the position to uproot and move (and am bitter about it daily). So if you truly want to be in that industry, be ready to position yourself in a place where you may thrive.
 
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
 
I'm at school in Dallas (or at least a suburb of Dallas), so yeah I'm right there in one of the "hotbeds."
 
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
 
I envy you then. I almost went to work in Seattle or Madison. Didn't go to Seattle because of the distance and the cost; didn't go to Madison because it's... well... it's in Wisconsin.

If you can somehow manage it, consider interning at one of the big shops. I know that there are more in that city than the two I mentioned, but interning at a place like id Software is far more meaningful than any other place I can think of.

If you're good enough, maybe Carmack will let you ride in his F-50.
 
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
That's an excellent idea, interning at one of the big shops. Go there in person and beg until they agree to let you work crappy, unpaid hours filing and answering phones.

I'm serious, do it.
 
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by El JT de Spang:
That's an excellent idea, interning at one of the big shops. Go there in person and beg until they agree to let you work crappy, unpaid hours filing and answering phones.

I'm serious, do it.

I don't know how serious you truly are with that tone.

Part of the thing with game designers is atmosphere. The environment they work with, the problems they deal with on a daily basis, the interaction between programmers, between programmers and testers, programmers and the community, etc...

Sure, you might end up doing just that - answering phones, providing the seemingly endless supply of coffee to the developers, be governor of the delivery menu book, etc... - but if you express interest in being more than that, they will let you in and expose you to what they're doing and how. And, if you start to build your own skills and can speak intelligently of things as a result, they will begin to see that.

Semi-related: my first job was being a filing and documentation clerk for a freight forwarder. I just happen to know things about computers. They saw that at one point, and by then I was familiar enough with my environment to be competent, and within the year I was a network administrator for a 200 user network.
 
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
 
I tried to get a job as an intern (non-paid) at many of the game companies in Houston. I knew some people there as I was a member of the local chapter of IGDA. Unfortunately nothing ever panned out with that, so I'm not sure how likely something would pan out of this. I guess I won't fully know until I try though.
 
Posted by El JT de Spang (Member # 7742) on :
 
I was being serious. Developing the contacts and the relationships is well worth a few months of scut work.

Which is why I said to go in person and beg.
 
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
 
I'm wondering if I can handle 18 hours (so I'd have at least one less lower level Arts and Technology class to take later). *ponder ponder ponder*
 
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
 
18 in a row? [Wink]
 
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
 
I think your new idea sounds awesome. It sounds incredibly practical while still allowing you to reach your dream. And there's even a built in back up plan! [Big Grin]
 


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