This is a question for the proove your geekness thread but figured I would start another one anyway.
So which is better Star Wars or Star Trek?
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
I suppose it depends on whether or not you include SW episodes 1-3.
Oh, wait. No, it doesn't.
Star Wars is better.
Posted by B34N (Member # 9597) on :
yeah, I guess your right. but that debate in and of itself (if you should include 1-3) would be a whole nother thread of stuff.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Star Trek.
Posted by B34N (Member # 9597) on :
cool 1 to 1.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Star Trek. Always Star Trek.
Posted by pfresh85 (Member # 8085) on :
In my opinion, the best Star Wars beats the best Star Trek. Not to say Star Trek is bad or anything (there's a lot of good in the different series and all).
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
BSG and Firefly are so awesome, they win the SW vs. ST war, even though they aren't part of it.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
[Jim Fay]
That's not one of the choices. Now, what were the choices?
[/Jim Fay]
Posted by T_Smith (Member # 3734) on :
Depends on what technical aspect you are judging from.
If you are judging from the aspect of human morality/ethics, sci-fi applications seen and overall influence it has it on people, Star Trek.
If you are judging characters, action, graphics, plot, and influence it has had on the genre definately Star Wars.
Personal favorite: Star Wars Episodes 4-6, Next Generations, Deep Space Nine, Episodes 1-3 is the pecking order for me.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Star Trek!
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
quote:If you are judging from the aspect of...overall influence it has it on people, Star Trek.
What makes you say this?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
This is tough.
The best Star Wars IS better than the best Star Trek I think. But DS9 is so much more fleshed out, and lasts a lot longer. If I had to choose between all of Star Trek DS9 and the last three Star Wars films, I'd have to say Star Trek, just because there is so much more of it, and I love the story arc, and the characters, because I got to get to know them and watch them change over seven years.
That's part of the problem with comparing movies to television shows, they are inherently just too different I think. I think Star Wars beats out ANY Star Trek movie, and Serenity to boot. But the shows...there's just so much more to them.
Posted by Eduardo St. Elmo (Member # 9566) on :
Overall I think I'll have to rate Star Trek above Star Wars, but it's a close call.
TNG * Episode IV-VI * Star Trek original series * Voyager * then a tie between Deep Space Nine and Enterprise
The Star Trek movies are less appealing than any of the series IMO , though admittedly I haven't seen that much of DSN or Enterprise yet. The second Star Wars trilogy never rose above mediocrity, so I'll put them on the bottom of this list.
Posted by T_Smith (Member # 3734) on :
quote:Originally posted by Juxtapose:
quote:If you are judging from the aspect of...overall influence it has it on people, Star Trek.
What makes you say this?
Not any statistic that I can quote you, just personal experience of what I've viewed. It's my opinion that Star Trek has had more positive influence on the ideals of fans than the ideals of fans of Star Wars. Ever watch Trekkies?
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
Nope, can't say I have.
If you ever watch MTV (I wouldn't recommend it) have you ever seen the episode of True Life about the kid whose parents permanently wear jedi attire and believe in the force (As in devoutly)? The father is deeply concerned when his son goes to a Star Wars con as a stormtrooper.
I'm not arguing that Star Wars inspires more devotion than Trek. It's just that my experience hasn't shown one set of fans to be more obsessed than the other, so I wondered why you thought so. I'll have to check out Trekkies.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Star trek is just such a different animal. I have often heard that Star Trek actors liken it to doing Shakespeare, because, I suppose, of the work schedule, the originality of the episodes, the way the different characters play different roles each episode etc. Star wars is MOVIES, you don't get that same type of serial quality, the story arch is much more clear and not as varied. It has advantages too, but weaknesses abound in that form of storytelling as well.
Were you expecting a different answer on this one: It Depends.
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
Star Trek, definitely.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Rivka
Those are hilarious!
Eduardo -
You NEED to watch DS9 all the way through. Having it at the bottom of your list is astonishing. Making it the equal of Enterprise is downright sinful.
Posted by Juxtapose (Member # 8837) on :
I just posted a fight between Billtmas and Tedtmas . Maybe that's what we'll call the DC get together. P.S. There was no hits for Tedtmas. Maybe there will be one soon.
Boy that site gets some traffic. There was 6 other fights while my fight was happening (as revealed by clicking on "last 20 fights.") and most of America isn't awake yet.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
quote:I think Star Wars beats out ANY Star Trek movie, and Serenity to boot.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
I rank DS9 among the greatest television series of all time- in any genre. It's just that damned good. Come for the Star Trek, stay for the captain who is deep and spiritual, but also knows when to kick in some alien teeth.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
Star Trek is better science fiction, and Star Wars is better fantasy. Star Trek is more scientific and anal, and Star Wars is more fast-and-loose instinctual.
If I had to choose to bust out a movie and only had Star Wars and Star Trek to choose from, I'd pick a Star Wars movie, probably in this order:
SW: Empire Strikes Back SW: A New Hope ST: First Contact SW: Return of the Jedi ST: Voyage Home ST: Wrath of Khan SW: Revenge of the Sith ST: Insurrection ST: Motion Picture
Then movies I'd rather stare at a wall then see again:
Attack of the Clones Phantom Menace Undiscovered Country Search for Spock Final Frontier
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
I need to re-watch The Undiscovered Country. I remember liking it, but I haven't watched it since I was 14 or so.
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
It's a bit slow-paced at times, but enjoyable enough.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
(Star Trek)
I think it's notable to add that on this thread there is a pattern emerging. First of all, hardly anyone has given a straight answer in favour of Star Wars (pfresh and Juxtapose and Lyrhawn almost did). We've had a lot of
quote:it depends
quote:Star Wars is better fantasy
quote:they are inherently just too different I think
etc.
Of the people who gave a straight "Star Trek" answer, all were women: rivka, quid, Shigosei, RRR, me.
quote:Star Trek.
quote:Star Trek. Always Star Trek.
quote:Star Trek!
quote:Star Trek, definitely.
etc.
(Also: I should add that Primal Curve and St. Elmo gave pretty strong Star Trek answers also, but they were qualified somehow.)
Obviously there are gender lines emerging, but I want to add something else that might annoy you fence-sitters a bit because psychoanalizing annoys everyone, especially if it's done by people on the other side of the fence. Anyway:
I think Star Wars is something you (especially boys) love as a kid. Lightsabers, Death Stars, long lost siblings, princesses, evil men in black masks- it's a kid's movie. I'm pretty sure most of you were kids when you first saw the movies. I'm sure most of you thought it was the coolest thing ever at that time.
Star Trek (although suitable for children) is not for children. There are no sword fights, there are no black masks, there is no Dark and Light in constant battle. It's much more grown up- many of you have said as much when you're talking about your favourite Star Trek:
quote:But DS9 is so much more fleshed out
quote:I have often heard that Star Trek actors liken it to doing Shakespeare
I think that this need for many of you to 'qualify' answers comes from that memory of Star Wars- you are holding on to a childhood memory of something being awesome- the same way anyone would assign meaning to something that was important when they were children.
(My father absolutely loves Chitty Chitty Bang Bang for this reason.)
I'm not saying that you are wrong to do this. However, what I am going to say that I think it's okay to love something very deeply and still say "Well, it's not as good as _________." You don't have to arrange things in order of "good" in the exact same order of things that are "liked".
Based on your hedged answers I think many of you are aware, especially script-wise, that Star Wars is not that "good" a movie. Sure- it's got awesome battles and cool sets and graphics and harrowing moments and things, but George Lucas just doesn't have the same adult depth/interest that much of Star Trek has.
You can like Star Wars more, but still think that Star Trek is better, you know. It's allowed.
Now I'm going leave before someone slices me in half with their lightsaber or drops me in a trash compactor.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Fascinating analysis, Teshi. I think you are right on.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
I can't believe I have qualifiers in my post. You're nuts. Star Trek takes the match.
Posted by Edgehopper (Member # 1716) on :
It mostly depends on whether I feel like seeing an epic with exciting space battles and combat, or a drama with exceedingly complex moral decisions. In other words, whether or not I want to think. If I'm in a thinking mood, I'll watch Star Trek; if I want to see things explode, I'll watch Star Wars.
If I want all of the above plus comedy, I'll rewatch episodes of Firefly.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:Uh, there are sword fights in Star Trek, they just don't take center stage like they do in SW.
I know this. I was giving examples. In Star Trek there are many battles and swordfights and evil men in masks etc. But they're not as prominant.
quote:I can't believe I have qualifiers in my post... Star Trek takes the match.
PC, you're right, you don't- really. You qualified within Star Trek only. Still you didn't give a straight answer.
And sometimes, they use big-ass Klingon blade thingies, instead of swords.
Anyway, the best Star Trek definitely beats the best Star Wars, hands down. However, the best Star Wars (Empire Strikes Back) definitely beats most of TOS, the first season of DS9, the parts of Voyager that I watched, and most of Enterprise. And half the movies.
Overall, Star Trek. No question.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote:It mostly depends on whether I feel like seeing an epic with exciting space battles and combat...
That's exactly what I mean. You're responding with "like", not "better".
There are times that I feel like watching McGyver. I love McGyver. However, I fully agree that it's not as good as Sex and the City, which I dislike and never watch.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
Exciting Space Battles? Combat?
Sounds like DS9 to me.
Posted by Edgehopper (Member # 1716) on :
quote:That's exactly what I mean. You're responding with "like", not "better".
There are times that I feel like watching McGyver. I love McGyver. However, I fully agree that it's not as good as Sex and the City, which I dislike and never watch.
I use that because I don't think they're comparable. Star Trek and Firefly are comparable since they're both dramas focusing on one ship, and I'd say Firefly is definitely the better of the two. Star Wars, however, is a giant galactic epic story and can't be compared to Star Trek.
Similarly, I don't think you can talk about "Sex and the City" being better than "McGyver", or (to use shows I watch as examples), talk about "House" being better than "South Park" or "My Name is Earl." The Emmys wisely separate comedies from dramas for this reason--I wish the Academy Awards would follow suit and split the Best Picture award into Best Comedy and Best Drama.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Dude. Primal Curve. You know what I mean! I'm not suggesting Star Trek isn't full of space battles. It's just got more than space battles.
Edgehopper: If I judge things like writing, plot, characters and photography I can judge two things that otherwise seem quite different.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
I just could not get into DS9, but I did enjoy Voyager and STNG ALOT.
It seems kinda unfair to compare 4 long running TV shows and 10 movies (Star Trek) to 6 movies (Star Wars) 2 of which are admittedly by Lucas as pure fluff, so that he could release episode 3. I've found the fan fic on Star Wars to be FAR more enjoyable then Star Trek. I think as things stand Star Trek overall is better because it has had so much more freedom. I think had somebody created a Star Wars TV show that didnt have Lucas interfering, Star Wars could give ST a really good run for its money.
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
Male reporting here, and I'll state without qualifications that DS9 beats anything that Star Wars or the rest of Star Trek has to offer. I'd even argue that the space battles of the Dominion War were more exciting than anything in the prequels, but the important part is what Lyrhawn noted. The characters are complex, fully-developed *people*, rather than mere archetypes, and unlike in TNG, were allowed to do morally questionable things that often blurred the line between "hero" and "villain." The best example of this is the 6th season episode, "In the Pale Moonlight," which is probably the more compelling episode of television Star Trek ever produced. Yeah, I'd even rank it above "City on the Edge of Forever." It's not surprising that Ron Moore, who is often credited with making DS9 as good as it was, went on to make Battlestar Galactica.
Also, Ben Sisko is the best captain EVAR. Malcolm Reynolds aside, that is. Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
I think a big problem with this is that Star Wars is outnumbered.
Star Wars has 12 hours of film vs. Star Trek's several hundred hours of film and television. Star Wars has about twenty characters that have appeared in more than one film vs. Star Trek's recurring cast of probably closer to 100 (over all series and films). I won't even go into the books.
Star Trek has built entire cultures, languages, intergalactic empires (plural) with multiple political structures, and tries to deal with philosophical/social issues in a science fiction way. It tries to take itself seriously, and for the most part does.
Star Wars is built around fun, with grand themes of good and evil, heroes and villains, scrappy rebels and an oppressive imperial military, and a more folksy/casual style.
To be more blunt, Star Trek worries about problems in engineering that take an episode to fix with advanced training and innovative application science, while Star Wars has a freighter captain who hits the dashboard to get the circuits to work again.
Star Trek to me is interesting, but Star Wars is entertaining. That's a big difference.
Throw me into the Star Wars camp.
Edit: As an aside, Firefly is *far* closer to Star Wars than Star Trek, and a Star Wars series directed by Joss Whedon would blow anything Star Trek could ever put together out of the water.
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
Stars Wars any time, any day. There will never be a comparison to me, which is why I consitently rank every Star Wars movie as the best movie ever. My number one favorite movie spot has about 10-15 movies.
Comparing Star Wars to Star Trek is like comparing humans to ants. Star Wars is bigger, better, cooler, more fun, more entertaining, more timeless, and more interesting. Also, it has FAR, FAR, FAR more products associated with it, which is good, because you can never own too much Star Wars stuff...ever.
And that's why I think Star Wars is an infinite amount of times better.
Posted by TheGrimace (Member # 9178) on :
Answer to original question: Star Wars. It actually has an ongoing plot that matters and characters who behave more or less realistically.
I appreciate Star Trek for some of the things it's brought us (e.g. Red Shirts and DS9) but when people talk about "epic plotlines" with regards to anything Star Trek related (other than DS9) I can only laugh. The series' always just bugged me because they were 95% episodic and 5% story arc (translated: 95% filler, 5% real).
now the answer to the better question of "rank your top sci-fi series"
From Best to worst (only including those I've seen) Farscape ~ Firefly (depends on what mood I'm in) Star Wars (IV-VI) ~ Battlestar Galactica Babylon 5 ~ DS9 Star Wars (III) ~ Star Trek TNG Star Wars (II) Star Wars (I) ~ Voyager
Of course this is subject to taste. I know some people that are just bothered by continuing story arcs, but then I tend not to talk to them about choice in Sci-Fi series.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
SW, but BSG tops all.
--j_k
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Stars Wars any time, any day. There will never be a comparison to me, which is why I consitently rank every Star Wars movie as the best movie ever.
I blame you, and those like you, for enabling Lucas.
Posted by Squish (Member # 9191) on :
Star Wars, hands down.
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
Star Trek, Star Trek, Star Trek.
I LOVE the original SW trilogy, they're great fun, but I can only handle watching 'em once every couple years or so. I will NEVER, EVER tire of watching TNG episodes on Spike. 'Course it helps that Picard is the handsomest human being ever.
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:Stars Wars any time, any day. There will never be a comparison to me, which is why I consitently rank every Star Wars movie as the best movie ever.
I blame you, and those like you, for enabling Lucas.
Why thank you, we do enable him to make more fantastic films. Spielberg and Lucas all the way!
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
O_O
Posted by TheGrimace (Member # 9178) on :
much as I like star wars, I must now vomit in the general direction of Reticulum... /spew
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
The constellation is that-a-way.
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
quote: Star Wars is bigger, better, cooler, more fun, more entertaining, more timeless, and more interesting. Also, it has FAR, FAR, FAR more products associated with it, which is good, because you can never own too much Star Wars stuff...ever.
(bolding mine)
And this, my friends, is why we are all doomed. DOOMED, I tell you!
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Well, in battle, I'd say that the Star Wars has a distinct advantage--Death Star and Imperial Cruisers out weigh and out gun anything the Federation has developed. A Borg Cube Ship, or even a Q would make the difference. I imagine the faster firing rate of the Cube would defeat the Star, but I prefer to compare the main fleets.
For small ships, none of the Star Trek run abouts or shuttles could compare with Tie Fighters of X-Wings. Although some of the DS-9 era small ships shown in their battles might compete, hands down Star Wars wins again.
Hand to hand fighting would lean mostly to Star Trek. Sure the Jedi Light Sabers would shatter even Klingon Batlats. But the Phasers seem to be a heck of a lot more accurate than the Star Wars Blasters. The Accuracy rate of either Storm Trooper or Rebel is only about 1 in 30 shots while Federation Personel usually hit about 95% of their targets.
The Alien advantage is a bit difficult to count, since neither side really limit their combatants to mostly young white human males. With Star Wars you have Wookies, but you also have Ewoks. For every battling Yoda, you have a Jar-Jar. Star Wars not only has Klingons to kick backside, but Romulans to stab backs, Vulcan's to out think your tactics, and even Ferengie to rob the corpses. (An economic war between the Hutt's and the Ferengi would be about equal.) I have to say that Star Trek gets the Alien Advantage.
The final question is comparing the big guns--Star Wars has The Force. Star Trek has Techno-Babble.
The Force can make a whimp into a kicking warrior, levitate objects, and send evil electricity out of fingers. It can even cloud the minds of less intelligent people.
Technobabble can do, well, anything.
Especially, it can cloud the minds of the more intelligent people, bringing them to a boiling rage or leaving them in a confused stupor. (They are doing what by reversing the polarity of the deflector dish? Since when do dishes have polarity?)
Hence, I must give the intergalactic battle to Star Trek.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
Yeh, Ret, the Star Wars franchise would greatly benefit from the loss of George Lucas... preferably if one could go back in time and, um, "lose" him before he ruined Eps 1-3.
Posted by Stephan (Member # 7549) on :
Star Wars 4-6 definitely beats any of the Star Trek movies in my opinion. But Deep Space Nine is still my favorite sci fi saga out of everything.
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
Dan
Posted by Edgehopper (Member # 1716) on :
quote:Well, in battle, I'd say that the Star Wars has a distinct advantage--Death Star and Imperial Cruisers out weigh and out gun anything the Federation has developed. A Borg Cube Ship, or even a Q would make the difference. I imagine the faster firing rate of the Cube would defeat the Star, but I prefer to compare the main fleets.
For small ships, none of the Star Trek run abouts or shuttles could compare with Tie Fighters of X-Wings. Although some of the DS-9 era small ships shown in their battles might compete, hands down Star Wars wins again.
Of course Star Wars ships would win--the laws of physics don't even remotely apply in Star Wars-land. What might make up the difference is incompetent strategists (for example, whoever thought that a shield that stops laser weapons but not metal was worth spending money on in Episode 1).
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow: Yeh, Ret, the Star Wars franchise would greatly benefit from the loss of George Lucas... preferably if one could go back in time and, um, "lose" him before he ruined Eps 1-3.
Not in my opinion. 1-3 were just as good as 4-6, maybe, if not BETTER. I don't really see why people think they're so bad.
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
If it came to an actual combat situation, we'd have a never ending stalemate.
"I take out your Enterprise with a precise hit to the 2-meter wide exhaust port!"
"I counter with a shift in the nutational shield frequencies!"
"I counter your counter by applying a Jedi mind trick to your captain!"
"My chief engineer reverses the polarity of the deflector shield generator to block the Force!"
"You can't do that, the Force flows through all things, even deflector shields!"
"But it only affects the weak-minded, so my captain is fine anyway!"
"Nerd!"
"Dork!"
et cetera, ad infinitum.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_raven: Well, in battle, I'd say that the Star Wars has a distinct advantage--Death Star and Imperial Cruisers out weigh and out gun anything the Federation has developed. A Borg Cube Ship, or even a Q would make the difference. I imagine the faster firing rate of the Cube would defeat the Star, but I prefer to compare the main fleets.
For small ships, none of the Star Trek run abouts or shuttles could compare with Tie Fighters of X-Wings. Although some of the DS-9 era small ships shown in their battles might compete, hands down Star Wars wins again.
Hand to hand fighting would lean mostly to Star Trek. Sure the Jedi Light Sabers would shatter even Klingon Batlats. But the Phasers seem to be a heck of a lot more accurate than the Star Wars Blasters. The Accuracy rate of either Storm Trooper or Rebel is only about 1 in 30 shots while Federation Personel usually hit about 95% of their targets.
The Alien advantage is a bit difficult to count, since neither side really limit their combatants to mostly young white human males. With Star Wars you have Wookies, but you also have Ewoks. For every battling Yoda, you have a Jar-Jar. Star Wars not only has Klingons to kick backside, but Romulans to stab backs, Vulcan's to out think your tactics, and even Ferengie to rob the corpses. (An economic war between the Hutt's and the Ferengi would be about equal.) I have to say that Star Trek gets the Alien Advantage.
The final question is comparing the big guns--Star Wars has The Force. Star Trek has Techno-Babble.
The Force can make a whimp into a kicking warrior, levitate objects, and send evil electricity out of fingers. It can even cloud the minds of less intelligent people.
Technobabble can do, well, anything.
Especially, it can cloud the minds of the more intelligent people, bringing them to a boiling rage or leaving them in a confused stupor. (They are doing what by reversing the polarity of the deflector dish? Since when do dishes have polarity?)
Hence, I must give the intergalactic battle to Star Trek.
If you had read some of the Star Wars fan fic that Lucas has given his blessing to. You would realize that in the Star Wars universe, planets can be moved by the force, and there is a ship (The size of 1.5 Xwings) called the "Suncrusher" that destroys entire solar systems.
I can concede several of your points, even add that in the star wars universe light speed travel is only the pitily Full Impulse of the Star Trek universe. I think Star Wars would win in a straight fight, but Star Trek vehicles could easily slip away to fight another day no Star Wars vehicle could keep up with a ship going at warp 1 even.
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_raven: Well, in battle, I'd say that the Star Wars has a distinct advantage--Death Star and Imperial Cruisers out weigh and out gun anything the Federation has developed. A Borg Cube Ship, or even a Q would make the difference. I imagine the faster firing rate of the Cube would defeat the Star, but I prefer to compare the main fleets.
For small ships, none of the Star Trek run abouts or shuttles could compare with Tie Fighters of X-Wings. Although some of the DS-9 era small ships shown in their battles might compete, hands down Star Wars wins again.
[total geekage]The weapons (other than the Death Star superlaser) on most Star Wars universe ships are simple lasers, which, based on some TNG episodes would have no effect on the shielded ST Universe ships.
The Sun Crusher is a stupid KJA creation, and I'm stupider for having read those stupid, stupid books.
Posted by B34N (Member # 9597) on :
Wow this thread got long since I went to bed. I havent been able to read everyone's posts casue I am on lunch but will when I get off and tally up votes so far.
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
quote:Originally posted by TheTick: [QUOTE] [total geekage]The weapons (other than the Death Star superlaser) on most Star Wars universe ships are simple lasers, which, based on some TNG episodes would have no effect on the shielded ST Universe ships.
The Sun Crusher is a stupid KJA creation, and I'm stupider for having read those stupid, stupid books.
I don't know, quantem armor, and the ability to destroy stars doesn't sound very stupid.
Posted by Edgehopper (Member # 1716) on :
quote:If you had read some of the Star Wars fan fic that Lucas has given his blessing to. You would realize that in the Star Wars universe, planets can be moved by the force, and there is a ship (The size of 1.5 Xwings) called the "Suncrusher" that destroys entire solar systems.
Then why would anyone need a Death Star???
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
Because the Sun Crusher is far more expensive, and destroying planets isn't half bad.
Posted by narrativium (Member # 3230) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reticulum: I don't know, quantem armor, and the ability to destroy stars doesn't sound very stupid.
Yes it does.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Is there a killing spree that needs to be done to get Joss Whedon to direct something Star Wars?
Because I'd totally do it, man. Just so long as I get to watch in prison.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Go for it. I'm right behind you.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
Reticulum, dude, are you trolling or something? I don't think you're going to find many people here who agree with your points.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
Edgehopper, in the bizarre mind of Kevin J. Anderson, the Suncrusher was a ship so heavily shielded that it could withstand a supernova without so much as a scratch or any harm to the person inside. In the books, it flew as though it was a bullet, blasting right through the shields and hulls of Star Destroyers. It had a weapon that was equally heavily shielded that could be fired into a star and trigger a chain reaction that would result in a nova. Such a weapon would be used to destroy entire solar systems, rather than just planets.
The model in the book was just a prototype, the next phase in the Empire's weapons development. At the merciful end of the trilogy of books, Luke lowered it into the star around Yavin 4 so that no one else could get their hands on it - though, being so shielded, it is perfectly intact should some other powerful Jedi (and crappy author) choose to raise it.
It wasn't even the worst concept in that awful trilogy.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
As an aside, I think Timothy Zahn and Joss Whedon need to get together to write and direct a Star Wars television series.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I count as "canon" only that which I choose to-- which includes Tim Zahn and Mike Stackpole's books, and excludes most of KJA's. Oh, and the NJO.
That is my right and privilege as a SW fan. You may have a different canon than I. Just don't fight with me about it.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
quote:Originally posted by narrativium:
quote:Originally posted by Reticulum: I don't know, quantem armor, and the ability to destroy stars doesn't sound very stupid.
Yes it does.
Are you an SG-1 fan? Sam blew up a star. (Granted, the way she did it was a lot cooler and made a lot more sense.) I think my point is, it's not whether you blow up a star, it's how. Posted by GaalDornick (Member # 8880) on :
I've never seen an episode of Star Trek. Could I start with any series? I'm not planning on watching every episode ver created, I just want a little of the Best of Star Trek. Which series should I watch?
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
I wouldn't be averse to a Michael Stackpole written Rogue Squadron TV show, either.
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
Ehh... Stackpole's strength was in plotting and action. His dialogue was stilted and overly expository at best; occasionally, it was downright unreadable. Not a great recipe for a television showrunner, if you ask me.
Now Aaron Allston, on the other hand... a *Wraith* Squadron series by him, that I'd watch. His ability to write witty, intelligent dialogue is near-Whedonesque.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
I'd say the series should be set either in the years leading up to A New Hope, or the years immediately following Return of the Jedi (ignoring Truce at Bakura). None of the major characters should be in it directly, though they could be mentioned or alluded to.
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
quote:Originally posted by GaalDornick: I've never seen an episode of Star Trek. Could I start with any series? I'm not planning on watching every episode ver created, I just want a little of the Best of Star Trek. Which series should I watch?
If you want a little of the best, then you should watch a little of each series Except, of course, Enterprise. But TOS, TNG, DS9, and even sometimes Voyager all have their own strengths. And it depends on how much you appreciate things like technobabble and camp.
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
Or the timeframe of Knights of the Old Republic. Really, we want Jedi! So let's actually set a show when there were Jedi in abundance.
edit: obviously goes after the soaring bovine's post.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
And the worst thing is, if that dratted Lucas wasn't such a stingy dope, we'd probably have SW regular series.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
Do we really want Jedi? I dunno... Jedi are like hot pepper flakes - best if used sparingly. If you read the books, the more Luke grew in power the less interesting he was.
I'd love to see a very Firefly-esque show with a group of smugglers or rebels experiencing the seedy sides of the galaxy and dodging Imperial patrols and stormtroopers. Maybe have it set in a time when Vader was doing Jedi-cleanup, finding the last of the Jedi who escaped and taking them out.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Let them fight it out:
Fight one. Kirk VS Anakin:
Kirk pulls out his phaser, grabs a manly pose, and fires.
Anakin snickers as he easily deflects the phaser fire with his light saber. Then with poise and ease he leaps into the air, doing a double somersault, to land behind Kirk. Immediately he brings down his Light Saber to cut Kirk in two.
But he's too late.
Kirk has already fallen into a crouch and he overdramatically rolls away.
The only thing Anankin's saber cut was Kirk's shirt, which falls away.
Kirk stands displaying his galacticlly renowned manly chest. Every woman watching the battle leers lustilly towards Kirk.
Even Imadala.
Anakin, seeing his love leering after Kirk, falls to his knees and screams "NNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooo!oo!"
Kahn, watching the fight, stands in his shirtless vest. The women of the universes turn their attention to this even more macho, gentically perfect pectorals.
Kirk falls to his knees and screams "KKKkaaaaaaaahhhhhhhnnnnnnnnn!"
The audience, judging Anakin's overacted scream to be the most horrendous, tear him into shreds.
Victory--Kirk.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
LOL. Now do Yoda vs. Spock - the battle of the ears!
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Come now, no one has ever complained about Indiana Jones have they? That's Team Lucaberg at work.
I'm waiting for two things to happen before I could make any sort of final list on what is best.
1. A Star Wars television show.
2. Firefly to be continued.
Until then, I can't put Firefly above DS9, and I can't put Star Wars above it either. DS9 reigns surpreme for me.
But either way, I think DS9 and Star Wars is better than Serenity, the movie. The television show is different, but there's still life left in it. I reserve judgement.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
"Logic is a little tweeting bird chirping in a meadow. Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell BAD. Are you sure your circuits are functioning correctly? Your ears are green."
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow: Do we really want Jedi? I dunno... Jedi are like hot pepper flakes - best if used sparingly. If you read the books, the more Luke grew in power the less interesting he was.[quote]
Yeah, definitely. I mean, the prequels were full of Jedi, and look how they turned out.
[quote]I'd love to see a very Firefly-esque show with a group of smugglers or rebels experiencing the seedy sides of the galaxy and dodging Imperial patrols and stormtroopers.
Ooh, yes please. Can we fit Summer Glau and Morena Baccarin in there?
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
We'd need a show based on the Old Republic Jedi, who were diplomats, scientists, healers, not just warriors. There's a lot more potential there than just 'OOOH, he has a double-bladed lightsaber!' or 'OOOH, that robotty guy has FOUR lightsabers!!'.
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
quote:As an aside, I think Timothy Zahn and Joss Whedon need to get together to write and direct a Star Wars television series.
OMG...this would be so awesome. The fact that it will never happen is saddening. why did you even have to suggest it??
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Wow my post was about the last page, I didn't even realize there was a second page to this thread.
There WILL be a live action show about Star Wars helmed by Lucas in the next year or so.
Personally, I'd rather Tim Zahn write a series, or write screenplays for movies VII - IX based on his Thrawn books.
I think the absolute best series would be based on Rogue Squadron, or Wraith Squadron, or both.
I think Lucas is far better at conceptualizing, producing, working in the back room behind the scenes than he is at screenplay writing, I think he's even a great director. Things only really fall apart when the entire thing is run by him. He still has a place in Star Wars, but it's a far reduced role from what he tried to do on the prequels.
I don't want any show or future movie to deal with anything before A New Hope. It's dead. Let's leave it there.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
I'd like a series to detail what happened between Ep 3 and Ep 4 a bit. Birth of the rebellion, rise of the Empire, fighting from place to place, new bases when they're discovered - it can go right through A New Hope into Empire, too.
Or, contrarily, a series with the broken Empire scrambling to hold itself together after the Emperor and Vader die, with the rebels trying to seize control away from regional governors and systems still loyal to the imperial ideal.
The Thrawn trilogy should be movies 7-9, definitely.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
As for Lucas as director, aside from A New Hope, he has only ever directed three crappy star wars movies, THX-1138 and American Graffiti.
Let him produce... or tie him up and toss him in a closet somewhere. Bring in some directors who have a clue in their head what they are doing.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
The Star Wars movies, for their faults, weren't bad because of poor directing. American Graffiti was hailed and cheered when it came out, and ever since.
Either way though, I don't think he should direct much again, but what he is great at, he is REALLY great at. He shouldn't remove himself from film entirely.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow: As for Lucas as director, aside from A New Hope, he has only ever directed three crappy star wars movies, THX-1138 and American Graffiti.
Let him produce... or tie him up and toss him in a closet somewhere. Bring in some directors who have a clue in their head what they are doing.
I thought he did Howard the Duck as well, but it seems that he only produced it. It's funny when you think of that movie being the reason Pixar came in to existance ( http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091225/trivia ).
"Untitled Clone Wars TV Series" (2007) TV Series (announced) (executive producer) "Untitled Star Wars TV Series" (2007) TV Series (announced) (executive producer) Indiana Jones 4 (2008) (pre-production) (executive producer)
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
Good, it doesn't list him as director.
His only positive directorial outings were almost three decades ago. His recent track record did not live up to his more positive beginnings by any stretch.
Eps 1-3 were bad because one person controlled all aspects of production, from concept to writing to directing to editing to screen. The would have benefited from a good editor to look over Lucas' shoulder and say "George, this part is clumsy, this is just poorly written, and this other part has some of the worst acting I've ever seen. Clean it up."
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: The Star Wars movies, for their faults, weren't bad because of poor directing. American Graffiti was hailed and cheered when it came out, and ever since.
Either way though, I don't think he should direct much again, but what he is great at, he is REALLY great at. He shouldn't remove himself from film entirely.
Direction isn't just coming up with great visuals (and I'd argue that while the prequels had great *technology*, the actual cinematography and art design were, by and large, dull and uninspired). An equally important part of direction is helping the actors to come up with great performances. Lucas is arguably decent at the former, but he's pretty much complete trash at the latter. Virtually every single actor in the prequels has done great work elsewhere (even Hayden Christenson), but Lucas' complete inability to direct his actors turned even the brilliant Liam Neeson into a wooden marionette.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tarrsk: If it came to an actual combat situation, we'd have a never ending stalemate.
"I take out your Enterprise with a precise hit to the 2-meter wide exhaust port!"
"I counter with a shift in the nutational shield frequencies!"
"I counter your counter by applying a Jedi mind trick to your captain!"
"My chief engineer reverses the polarity of the deflector shield generator to block the Force!"
"You can't do that, the Force flows through all things, even deflector shields!"
"But it only affects the weak-minded, so my captain is fine anyway!"
"Nerd!"
"Dork!"
et cetera, ad infinitum.
The Defiant (or any Romulan vessel) can take out the Death Star without the Death Star being able to put up a fight. There's such a disparity in fantasy technology between the two worlds that it's not even worth comparison.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
I think the Death Star loses because one of the most important features in any major weaponry is the ability to AIM.
"Ship's over there! Rotate the entire station 80 degrees NOW!!! Oh, darn... he moved! Rotate again!!! Oh, darn..."
Leave it to the dumb ass Mon Calamari to pilot their ship right in the path of the beam.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Heres a question would the borg be able to assimilate the Force? Or is it purely technology that can be assimilated. Or does Lucas's lame mediclorian explanation make the force well within the realm of Borg assimilation?
I think the borg wielding the force would be a scary thing as they could focus completely on wielding it and would not let feelings of doubt or dispair limit their use.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
ROUND TWO
Yoda vs Spock
Spock enters the battle arena as the fight music begins. Yoda waves a hand and the Star Wars theme overrides it.
Spock looks over his diminuative foe and says, "It is most logical for you to concede this fight. I am bigger, stronger, and my phaser far surpasses your hand held weapon."
Yoda smiled. "Nothing, Logic is, The Force to."
Spock was getting into his defensive position when he stopped. "Excuse me, what did you say?"
Yoda also stopped, repeating his comment even slower. "Nothing, logic is, the Force to."
"Intriguing. You are using common Earth English words, but they do not seem to be in any logical order."
"Intrigue, the Dark Side is. The light and The Dark, logic, use do both."
"What? Let me run some diagnostics on my Universal Translator."
"The Universe, the Force, translates all."
"You appear to be saying something signifigant, and I am trying to understand you..."
"Try not. Do only."
"Your way of speaking is so illogical, it is giving me a headache."
"Pain, the headache cause. The Darkside, pain leads."
"I know you are trying to say something. Perhaps a mind meld would clear up this confusion. May I?"
"I know not, ask this you do?"
"Now you are just mixing words up to confuse me. It is most logical for me to assume that you agree. Our communications, once commenced, will be the most logical solution to this situation. My mind to your mind. Your mind to my mind." Spock slowly and calmy began his trance, closing on the wise little Yoda.
As he got close, repeating over and over again "my mind, to your mind, your mind to my mind."
As he was just about to reach Yoda, Yoda responded with the incantation, as if already swept up in the mental powers of the Vulcan master.
But not quite.
"Mind yours, Light Saber mine, to."
The last thing to go through Spock's mind, was the shiny end of Yoda's light saber.
Victory Yoda.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
quote: the originality of the episodes
Have we been watching the same show?
I'll admit, I've never seen DS9 or Enterprise. But I've seen a far amount of TOS, TNG, and Voyager and all of the originality, deep moral decisions, and sweeping storylines that people are talking about must be taking place in DS9 and Enterprise.
This is not, by the way, a vote for Star Wars. Just an expression of disbelief about Star Trek.
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
:lol: Encore!
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
quote:The Defiant (or any Romulan vessel) can take out the Death Star without the Death Star being able to put up a fight. There's such a disparity in fantasy technology between the two worlds that it's not even worth comparison.
[dork]Meh. The Death Star's the size of a moon - the Defiant wouldn't make a dent. And that's with the force field *down* - with the force field *up*, any cloaked ship would just explode on impact with it. Besides, the Force can see through cloaking devices.[/dork]
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
Leia v. Uhura! Obi-wan v. Picard! Sulu v. Lando! Chewie v. Chekov! Ewoks v. Tribbles!
More, more!
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote: I'll admit, I've never seen DS9 or Enterprise. But I've seen a far amount of TOS, TNG, and Voyager and all of the originality, deep moral decisions, and sweeping storylines that people are talking about must be taking place in DS9 and Enterprise.
I think TOS was pretty original for its time. But now it's been done and redone so much that it no longer seems inventive. TNG was great about presenting interesting sci-fi ideas. It reminds me of reading Asimov short stories. Like Asimov, it is definitely about ideas not characters. Voyager did not impress me. DS9, especially the later years, is about characters and ideas and is thus the best of the Star Treks. For some reason, I never really watched Enterprise so I can’t comment.
If it’s not obvious, my vote goes to Star Trek. Posted by Grim (Member # 9165) on :
Star Wars
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
Tribbles are invincible O_O Those poor, cuddly Ewoks...
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by MyrddinFyre: Tribbles are invincible
They certainly are not. But it doesn't matter! Because there are are always more! Posted by B34N (Member # 9597) on :
Wow, three pages now! Hmmm, I guess I should post my answer now.
-- Star Trek - had the first African America Woman on TV, Had a russian character during the start of the cold war and most importantly the first ever interracial (sp?) relationship on TV. All great stuff when it comes to sociohistorical relevance.
BUT
-- Star Wars - is what got me into scifi anyways, there wasn't a day that went by when I was growing up as a kid that I didn't wish that star wars would come on TV. I remember running into my parents bedroom at like 6:00am on a Sat just to tell my Mother that Star Wars was on HBO. It has tremendously impacted the way movies are made and gave light to Industrial Light and Magic, which is partly responsible for the effects in almost every Star Trek movie that has been made to date.
So which do I thin is better neither. I would pick Battlestar Galactica, JK.
Honestly couldn't pick that's why I started the thread to see how many people were torn on such a interesting topic.
Posted by B34N (Member # 9597) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nighthawk:
quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow: As for Lucas as director, aside from A New Hope, he has only ever directed three crappy star wars movies, THX-1138 and American Graffiti.
Let him produce... or tie him up and toss him in a closet somewhere. Bring in some directors who have a clue in their head what they are doing.
I thought he did Howard the Duck as well, but it seems that he only produced it. It's funny when you think of that movie being the reason Pixar came in to existance ( http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091225/trivia ).
Howard the Duck rocks! Anyone remeber the theme song? Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Round 3
Han Solo vs. Captain Cisco The two toughest men in the universes.
Han Solo smiles.
Cisco shrugs his shoulders and smiles back.
"Listen friend, just give up now. Not only am I Han Solo, who could kick your backside up one side of the Sith and down the other, I'm freak'n Harrison Ford. Nobody touches Harrison Ford. Who are you?"
"I'm the Emmisary. I'm the Cisco. I'm the guy who punched Q in the face. I'm the guy that's going to shoot Harrison Freak'n Ford."
Han Solo shrugged his broad shoulders, relaxed, and very subtly unhooked his holster snap. Then with a blur the blaster was in his hands and he was shooting Cisco.
Cisco barely had time to reach his phaser before the shot should have blown him away.
Instead time rewound.
The shot went back into Han Solo's gun, as the Giant hand of George Lucas materialized out of nowhere and began to digitaly alter the scene. His booming Godlike voice echoed, "We can't let Han shoot first."
Cisco smiled, pulled out his phaser and shot first.
And Cisco doesn't miss.
Victory Cisco
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
If you kill Harrison Ford, I think you have to stop. That goes way too far, making Han Solo lose. I've lost faith in you. Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
quote: I'm the guy who punched Q in the face.
Classic!
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
I didn't kill Harrison Ford. Lucas did.
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
Minus another 15 faith points.
That sounds like something we're going to right in left beind game...
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Round Four
Princess Leia vs Captain Janeway.
As the two enter the arena both draw weapons. Janeway, relying on years of formal Starfleet training, and the smaller, easier to handle phaser vs the bulky blaster that Leia fires two handed, manages to shoot the weapon out of Leia's hands.
"Surrender Princess."
"Never. You'll have to kill me, you skruffy looking Nerf herder." Princess Leia said defiantly.
Captain Janeway took careful aim, then "I could easily kill you, but this brings up the question of how the Prime Directive should be read to dertermin if such a mover is correct. If I kill you, would that alter the course of your society? Do I have the right...."
While Captain Janeway went on, and on and on, Leia slowly bent down, took Han Solo's blaster, smiled, and blew her away. Captain Janeway was shocked to discover her own private moral dilema shattered by the blaster's firery explosion within her lower abdomen.
Victory Leia
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
I predict a victory for Star Trek Next. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Dan, these are awesome! Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Round Five--the Ultimate
Q vs The Force.
Q appears in the battle arena. He looks around. In one darkened corner of the round arena, some mysterious movement is seen. "Hello!" calls Q patronizingly
"Anybody over there?" Nothing.
"Oh please. Here I was asked to face off with this all powerful thing, this force that holds the universe together. Well, the only omniscient, omnipotent one in this room is, well me."
Silence.
"Oh come on. What is this thing anyway that can "destroy a sun" and is "more powerful than all the armies ever gathered." I mean, couldn't it find a more interesting name? "The Force". How original."
"You're one to speak, Q" came the terse reply from the shadow.
"Oooh, it speaks." Q walked closer, staring into the void. "Darkside/Lightside, power of the Universe, tell me what you are before I dispose of you."
From out of the shadows came the reply.
"I'm Chuck Norris!"
Followed by a righteous Chuck Norris Roundhouse Kick that sends Q's head sailing across the room.
"Well why didn't you say soooooooooo" responded the head as it continued to fly, reaching orbital velocity within 18.2 minutes.
Victory--The Force/Chuck Norris.
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
Darn right. Chuck Norris will never lose! WOO Chuck Forcis. (Norris + Force = Forcis) You have redeemed yourself for killing Harrison Ford. Good Job!
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
I think this needs it's own thread, Dan. Something like Star Fights.
Posted by Dr Strangelove (Member # 8331) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_raven: "I'm Chuck Norris!"
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Worf vs Chewbacca?
Oh wait, those were played by the same dude, weren't they?
Okay, the battle of the engineers:
Scotty & Geordi versus Chewbacca and 5 year old Anikan.
Posted by Shawshank (Member # 8453) on :
I'd have to disagree with you there- I thought that Voyager was the best ST series I've seen (I haven't seen DS9 yet though... so don't kill quite yet). It was more interesting seeing them being alone and suriving by themselves than TNG with the flagship and the fleet backing them up.
Star Wars is easy to just sit down and watch and enjoy oneself (that is- if you don't listen tow hat they're actually saying). But Star Trek is better.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
Data vs C-3PO and R2D2
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
Amidala (sp?) vs 7 of 9!
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Dan, you forgot to compare them on errant technology. Like V-ger and transporter accidents versus malfunctioning hyperdrives and Imperial walkers that tip over.
Oh, and automatic doors. Star Trek had the best automatic doors. They opened and closed with the speed of a guillotine. Of course the death star had that one door in Ep 3 that closed like a falling rock.
Oh and food and drink. Replicator Earl Grey, in bone china versus foil wrapped energy bars...
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
And comic relief.
TRibbles and Harcourt Fenton Mudd versus Jar Jar.
Oh, and who had the best catch phrases.
"I've got a bad feeling about this."
Versus
"He's dead, Jim." and "Beam me up, Scotty."
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
You forgot, "May the force be with you.", Bob.
Posted by B34N (Member # 9597) on :
The Emperor vs. Odo?
CLICK ME Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
I'm a doctor, Jim, not a ________!
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tarrsk:
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: The Star Wars movies, for their faults, weren't bad because of poor directing. American Graffiti was hailed and cheered when it came out, and ever since.
Either way though, I don't think he should direct much again, but what he is great at, he is REALLY great at. He shouldn't remove himself from film entirely.
Direction isn't just coming up with great visuals (and I'd argue that while the prequels had great *technology*, the actual cinematography and art design were, by and large, dull and uninspired). An equally important part of direction is helping the actors to come up with great performances. Lucas is arguably decent at the former, but he's pretty much complete trash at the latter. Virtually every single actor in the prequels has done great work elsewhere (even Hayden Christenson), but Lucas' complete inability to direct his actors turned even the brilliant Liam Neeson into a wooden marionette.
I think many/most of the visuals in Star Wars, the prequels and otherwise are fantastic and awe inspiring. "Arguably decent" doesn't do him justice.
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
quote:Originally posted by Tarrsk:
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: The Star Wars movies, for their faults, weren't bad because of poor directing. American Graffiti was hailed and cheered when it came out, and ever since.
Either way though, I don't think he should direct much again, but what he is great at, he is REALLY great at. He shouldn't remove himself from film entirely.
Direction isn't just coming up with great visuals (and I'd argue that while the prequels had great *technology*, the actual cinematography and art design were, by and large, dull and uninspired). An equally important part of direction is helping the actors to come up with great performances. Lucas is arguably decent at the former, but he's pretty much complete trash at the latter. Virtually every single actor in the prequels has done great work elsewhere (even Hayden Christenson), but Lucas' complete inability to direct his actors turned even the brilliant Liam Neeson into a wooden marionette.
I think many/most of the visuals in Star Wars, the prequels and otherwise are fantastic and awe inspiring. "Arguably decent" doesn't do him justice.
Eh, diff'rent strokes. Although, go back and watch Episode 1 sometime. I just did, about a week ago, and was absolutely shocked at how dated the visual effects and art design have already become. Some of the compositing is truly cringeworthy. Ironically, the only stuff that still worked well were the *practical* effects: Darth Maul's makeup is still frighteningly effective, for example, and the Neimoidians at least look like they were physically present in the scene rather than being copy/pasted in later. But the digital stuff? Meh. I'll take DS9's space battles any day, and many of those were done with plastic models and hastily glued-together "kitbashes" of Star Trek toy sets.
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
Tarrsk, if your trying to make it seem in any way, that Star Wars battles don't look 1000 times better than Star Trek battles, and that in some miracle, Star Trek battles are better; I have two words of adivce for you:
Give up.
The effects from Episode One still look fantastic, and I have no idea where you are getting that they don't look good.
Posted by B34N (Member # 9597) on :
I think he was just talking about the visual effects and yes some of the all green screen stuff does look a little dated. I remember everything being very bright and ovverly bright at that.
Where as in Episodes II and III things were a little darker and made the effects look a little more realistic and not so green screened?
But then again maybe not?
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
You could be right, B34N, but I still say the graphics from Episode One are astounding to this date.
Posted by andi330 (Member # 8572) on :
I don't think that Star Wars v. Star Trek is a fair comparison. Star Wars is essentially a Fairy Tale wrapped in a science fiction package. Star Trek is an actual science fiction show.
Posted by B34N (Member # 9597) on :
No, I am not debating that just trying to clarify what I think Tarrsk was trying to say. I'll pick episode one over any of the effects in the Trek movies with the exception of maybe First Contact and Nemesis, but you can't really even relate the two together because Star Wars has so many more effects shots that it's insane.
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
Yup.
Posted by Tarrsk (Member # 332) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reticulum: Tarrsk, if your trying to make it seem in any way, that Star Wars battles don't look 1000 times better than Star Trek battles, and that in some miracle, Star Trek battles are better; I have two words of adivce for you:
Give up.
To a certain extent, this is really just a matter of personal opinion...
quote:The effects from Episode One still look fantastic, and I have no idea where you are getting that they don't look good.
...never mind. Wow, you really have no idea what you're talking about.
quote:Originally posted by B34N: I think he was just talking about the visual effects and yes some of the all green screen stuff does look a little dated. I remember everything being very bright and ovverly bright at that.
Where as in Episodes II and III things were a little darker and made the effects look a little more realistic and not so green screened?
But then again maybe not?
It's not just a question of brightness. The compositing of digital elements into filmed footage in Episode 1 is extremely primitive. Take a look at the shots where a digitally animated character has to interact with a "real" object... the lighting is off, movements aren't quite coordinated, and the CG character will seem to slide past everything around it. This gets better in Episodes 2 and 3, although the CG clonetroopers never managed to look at all realistic. They always hit the "uncanny valley" of animation: human motion close to the real thing, but just "off" enough that it looks fake (and vaguely creepy).
Posted by Reticulum (Member # 8776) on :
Ah yes, because you are the master of special effects are you not? That title belongs to ME, thank you very much. I still don't know why you say Episode One graphics are out of date.
Actually, I'm sorry, and I apologize to you, because you appear to be blind. Maybe one day they can help you.
So sorry. Posted by B34N (Member # 9597) on :
Wow, at least people are passionate about their CGI here. I am very glad to see that. For years I was stuck with a bunch of people who thought CGI was the worst thing that happened to filmmaking.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow:
quote:The Defiant (or any Romulan vessel) can take out the Death Star without the Death Star being able to put up a fight. There's such a disparity in fantasy technology between the two worlds that it's not even worth comparison.
[dork]Meh. The Death Star's the size of a moon - the Defiant wouldn't make a dent. And that's with the force field *down* - with the force field *up*, any cloaked ship would just explode on impact with it. Besides, the Force can see through cloaking devices.[/dork]
The specific limitations of Star Wars technology is too great. You can engineer a zillion ways that Star Trek's egregiously overboard fantasy technology can trump Star Wars' merely somewhat overboard fantasy technology.
Re: defiant v. the Death Star. A cloaked vessel doesn't have to worry whatsoever about defensive networks, and has the liberty to play with any of its technological advances that Star Wars does not have. Like teleporters, which could be used to teleport anything anywhere with impunity aboard the death star. Like, perhaps, powerful m/am explosives or a Quantum Singularity Device (if the ship is romulan) beamed straight into the highly volatile core of the Death Star.
Or they could just use multiphasic shielding and go hang out in the center of a nearby star while lobbing directed solar flares.
Or they could take a page from the latest crappy Star Trek movie, and spray the whole damn ship with thalaron radiation from a comfortable distance, instantly turning all organic material on board into a strange dusty carbon whatever substance.
Really, you can take your pick. There's just so many ways you can elict a cry of 'laaaaaaame' from all the pro-Star Wars theorycrafters. Star Trek totally has the edge in whacky overboard technological magicks!
Posted by Dav (Member # 8217) on :
Star Wars: Different species often spoke different native languages, and characters either relied on their own understanding of the other language (e.g. the Solo and Greedo confrontation) or made use of an actual translator (like C3PO).
Star Trek: Language issues were usually ignored, unless they were needed for some plot point, or to make Klingons sound cool. Or sometimes, they were explained away with automagic "universal translators", which somehow not only made everyone understand each other, but also somehow made everyone look like they were talking the same language.
In Enterprise, some episodes attempted to deal with language, and make it self-consistent ... But IMO, they didn't work very well.
I prefer the Star Wars approach to language. I like how its universe seems more linguistically diverse than English-speaking Hollywood.
(That said, I can still watch and enjoy Star Trek. The language thing just adds extra weight of disbelief to deal with.)
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dav: Star Wars: Different species often spoke different native languages, and characters either relied on their own understanding of the other language (e.g. the Solo and Greedo confrontation) or made use of an actual translator (like C3PO).
Star Trek: Language issues were usually ignored, unless they were needed for some plot point, or to make Klingons sound cool. Or sometimes, they were explained away with automagic "universal translators", which somehow not only made everyone understand each other, but also somehow made everyone look like they were talking the same language.
In Enterprise, some episodes attempted to deal with language, and make it self-consistent ... But IMO, they didn't work very well.
I prefer the Star Wars approach to language. I like how its universe seems more linguistically diverse than English-speaking Hollywood.
(That said, I can still watch and enjoy Star Trek. The language thing just adds extra weight of disbelief to deal with.)
Goes back to the fact that Star Trek is technology and physics, but Star Wars is fairytale and fantasy. Everyone in Star Trek spoke different languages, but it's explained away by the magical "univesal translator".
Star Wars everyone understood everyone else, as if by magic. Hearing R2 and Chewie talk and get understood was like a bad episode of Lassie.
"What, R2? Leia's stuck in a well? Where?"
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
Count me as one who loves both - Star Trek is more to think about, but Star Wars is just plain more fun. I care more about Star Wars. So I think it was said before - when I want to think, I watch Star Trek; when I want to enjoy myself and care about the people involved, I watch Star Wars. (But only the original ones. Episode 1 got boring after the pod race, I actually fell asleep in Episode 2 and I never cared enough to see Episode 3.)
But I have to agree with the thing about R2D2's language - why would humans design a robot that they would have to learn another language to communicate with? Wouldn't the first order of business be to create an easy user interface? I've got no problem with the myriad other languages spoken by other creatures, but to make something and then have to learn another language to communicate with it is ridiculous.
He is cute, though. Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
R2 units were neve meant to be understood through beeps and whistles. They're astromech droids, they go in fighters and talk to the pilot via the console in front of him, and then they go in a storage locker. The fact that the fighter pilots got really attached to them is incidental, and is why in some later generations of the R-series, some were given the ability to speak, or at least to interface much more easily.
If I was going for realism I'd prefer the Star Wars take on language. But it's fantasy/sci-fi, the universal translator is fine with me. It's been used since day one. If you can't get over it by the time you've watched umpteen seasons of Star Trek, I don't know how you watch sci-fi at all.
I think the graphics in the Star Wars movies are fantastic. I think ILM and George Lucas are making them better every day. But I DO like the battles in Star Trek better than in Star Wars.
Let me amend that, I live the big ship fights in Star Trek better, but I love the fighter dogfights in Star Wars just as much. I wish they could combine the two, but they don't usually show much of the fighters in Star Trek.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
quote:Originally posted by JennaDean: He is cute, though.
Hey, if you like R2 that much, you'd love the first segment of Ep3 in which he kicks some serious robot ass.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Actually, I thought that was pretty dumb. That scene relied entirely on the droid soldiers being incredibly inept and stupid.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
But they're EVIL. Of course they're inept and stupid!
Posted by B34N (Member # 9597) on :
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: Worf vs Chewbacca?
quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow: Eps 1-3 were bad because one person controlled all aspects of production, from concept to writing to directing to editing to screen. The would have benefited from a good editor to look over Lucas' shoulder and say "George, this part is clumsy, this is just poorly written, and this other part has some of the worst acting I've ever seen. Clean it up."
That's typically the producer, right? So are we saying that Rick McCallum is the reason the prequels generally suck, and not George Lucas?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Shhhh.
Lucas bashers don't like listening to crazed pro-Lucas rantings. Unless you're wearing a brown coat whilst professing undying loyalty to Whedon, your rantings about Lucas NOT being an incompetent fool will sound like gibberish.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
quote:That's typically the producer, right?
Yes and no. With a new director, it's typically the producer. With George Lucas, I don't think any producer would have been able to budge him off anything he wanted to do.
Could he have tried harder? Maybe, but I don't think any force on earth would have been able to stop Lucas from making the stupid changes he did to the original trilogy or mutilating his franchise with the prequel trilogy.
It's like OSC said about Steven King a while back after From a Buick 6 came out. Lucas needs an editor with enough of a backbone to stand up to him and tell him when certain things need to be changed - and he needs to have the humility to listen to that editor.
I don't think Lucas has that humility, and I don't think he'd continue to employ someone who said "no" to him all the time regarding "his vision" of what he wanted to do with Star Wars.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
quote:Shhhh.
Lucas bashers don't like listening to crazed pro-Lucas rantings. Unless you're wearing a brown coat whilst professing undying loyalty to Whedon, your rantings about Lucas NOT being an incompetent fool will sound like gibberish.
So, does that mean you think having Greedo shoot first in SW:SE, giving all the police flashlights instead of guns in ET, and getting actors with previously strong performances in other films to act the way they did in Revenge of the Sith were all displays of his brilliance?
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
quote:...giving all the police flashlights instead of guns in ET...
Huh? Did that really happen?
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow:
quote:Shhhh.
Lucas bashers don't like listening to crazed pro-Lucas rantings. Unless you're wearing a brown coat whilst professing undying loyalty to Whedon, your rantings about Lucas NOT being an incompetent fool will sound like gibberish.
So, does that mean you think having Greedo shoot first in SW:SE, giving all the police flashlights instead of guns in ET, and getting actors with previously strong performances in other films to act the way they did in Revenge of the Sith were all displays of his brilliance?
I thought changing it so Greedo shot first was pretty stupid. I've only seen ET once, so I don't know. And I thought much of the acting in Revenge of the Sith was fantastic.
Not that picking three random things out of an entire career in films isn't fair or anything...
Posted by hugh57 (Member # 5527) on :
ET was Spielberg, not Lucas, no?
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
quote:Originally posted by hugh57: ET was Spielberg, not Lucas, no?
Yes, correct.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Bob--I was planning on it before you mentioned it. That's my story and I'm sticking with ti.
Rivka--Yes, but not by me--yet.
B34n--Evil--incompetent and stupid? I've been evil, yes that is in the handbook. Only the "Super Genuses" get to be competent. They still have to be Stupid.
However, back to
STAR WARS/STAR TREK BATTLES IN THE STAR-DOME>
This week, The Ultimate in Macho Sci Fi--
Chewbacca vs Worf.
Chewbacca stands proud in the middle of the arena. He holds up both hands and roars to the crowd.
The crowd goes wild.
Worf enters the ring, cradling his batlet. No simple phaser will dishonor this battle. Chewbacca looks at him and grunts.
"Mr. Wookie," begins Worf as the blade dances in his hands, "I am going to trim your fur till you look like an earth poodle. As you die from the shame of it, I may concede to dispatch you with honor."
Chebacca howled. He grabbed his laser crossbow and began to fire. Worf dodged the blasts easily, since the famed Wookie Laser Crossbow is known for three things: 1) Being overly cumberson. 2) Inspiring oponents to giggle or say, "A laser what?" and most important of all, 3) Being even less accurate than standard innacurate stormtrooper blasters.
However, just as Worf was about the begin the dreaded hairtrimming, out of thin air materialized a wall of dreaded fanboys.
Defiantly they stood between Worf and his opponent. As one the recited, "Chewbacca will not die!"
A small voice in the back added, "again." This was quickly followed by a loud slap, some whispering, and that same small voice saying the mantra, "Any worthless book that depicts the death of Chewbacca is not only not canon...it is heresy."
"Then allow me to breed heresy!" growled Worf. But as he swung, his weapon was deflected by shields of Wookie trading cards.
Chewbacca howled a howl of triumph.
Worf glared. The wall wavered, but did not break under that glare.
"You think you are tough? You think I have no fans to wipe the walls with your entrails? Come all who have a true Klingon heart!"
A stampede filled the arena, as a wall, twice as high and four times as wide filled the space between the combatants.
Chewbacca howled in dismay.
Then as one the second wall of fanboys turned and glared at Worf. Worf noticed there was not one prosthetic forehead in the bunch. There were costumes of the Federation. There were Vulcans and Romulans, Ferengei and Andorians. There was even a Gorn or two. There was no Klingon.
"Where are my Klingons" demanded Worf.
"We posted signs, in Klingon, directing your fans to this place. But we purposefully fowled the Klingon Syntax. As a result they are all bickering over Klingon grammar and rewriting all we wrote. They will not arrive in time."
"And who are you to face the wrath of my Klingon fans?"
One young man stepped forward, the acne cream almost completely covered by his green Vulcan makeup. "We are the fans of Jadzia Dax!"
"Jadzia! Growwwwwwwllllll" said the wall.
The spokesman continued, "Whom you had the audacity to marry, and then not save so she died and left the show. We are the fans of Loxana Troi"
"Loxanna! Growwwwwlllllll" said the wall lustfully.
"Whom you had the audacity to seduce and ruin for the rest of us. Your macho masculine heroics and deep brooding have destroyed this refuge for us. You've had more [whisper] sex[/whisper] than anyone on DS9 accept Commander Kira."
"Commander Kira! Growwwwllllllllll!!!!!!!!!" This time many from the Wookie Fanboy wall joined in the growl.
"What few females dare to enjoy Star Trek used to be enthralled by a good intelligent Vulcan or honorable Cadet, now drool over you thrice cursed Klingons. You used to be the badguys."
Worf looked at all those poor lonely boys and men, who's only hope for romance lay in there intelligence and fanatical knowledge of Star Trek trivia. They were fools, but he realized, as they descended upon him and tore him limb from limb, that maybe, in the Nerd's paradise that is both Star Trek and Star Wars, being the best Mr. Macho was not the best idea.
And Chewbacca roared, with laughter.
Victory Chewbacca.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
That was amazing!
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_raven: Rivka--Yes, but not by me--yet.
So true.
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
::applause::
Posted by Orincoro (Member # 8854) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Shhhh.
Lucas bashers don't like listening to crazed pro-Lucas rantings. Unless you're wearing a brown coat whilst professing undying loyalty to Whedon, your rantings about Lucas NOT being an incompetent fool will sound like gibberish.
Some hatrackers already saw this, but its funnier than most wikitrash.
I recommend you check out the discussion page, where the discussion is really just written for laughs. But in a very serious way, 14 year olds playing the dangerous game of revert-war. Funny.
Posted by calaban (Member # 2516) on :
Now we need.
Millennium Falcon vs Enterprise
Star Destroyer vs A
Deathstar vs D
Lukes Landspeeder vs E
Lucas vs Roddenberry
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
quote:And I thought much of the acting in Revenge of the Sith was fantastic.
Really? Which parts? And what about Eps I and II? (Personally, I thought Yoda was the best actor of the bunch - which is both a testament to the cgi technology and a damnation of the other actors/direction.)
quote:ET was Spielberg, not Lucas, no?
My mistake. Yes, this idiocy was Spielberg (I had associated all doctoring after the fact with Lucas, but it was apparently his good bud instead). And yes, it did happen. In the scene when all the cops are out chasing the kids and alien through town, they used to all be carrying their sidearms. Now the guns have been digitally replaced with walkie-talkies (not flashlights, as I had previously said). Also, the boy who dressed up as a "terrorist" has now been labeled a "hippie" - to be more sensitive to the global/political environment.
quote:Not that picking three random things out of an entire career in films isn't fair or anything...
See, I'm a huge Star Wars fan. I love a lot of what Lucas has done. I just think all the fame and money has gone to his head.
He hasn't directed anything that was really great since 1977 - in fact, until Phantom Menace, he hadn't directed *anything* since 1977. He also, in my opinion, hasn't executive produced anything worthwhile since the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles in 1993.
Before that? I love American Graffiti, Star Wars, Empire, Return, Temple of Doom, Raiders, Last Crusade, Labyrinth, Willow... even the Land Before Time and the two Ewok movies were good kids films. And I enjoyed the Young Indy series for what it was. (Of course, he only directed two of those.)
ILM has done amazing things for special effects technology, and Lucas has really pushed the envelope on what can be done with computer graphics, giving birth to some really cool things. But as cool as great effects are, they can't carry a rough plot, cardboard characters or uninspired direction.
Star Wars can benefit from new blood running the show - Timothy Zahn, Michael Stackpole, etc. Some of the novels were better crafted than anything in the current filmed SW universe (e.g. Zahn) with far greater depth of vision, character and environment. (For example, Zahn used the wookie homeworld for specific reasons that were crucial to the plot and set up conflict that could not have happened anywhere else - Lucas used the wookie homeworld so people would get to see Chewbacca and go "kewl, wookies" while the same conflict could have happened on any other planet with any other race.)
I'm not knocking Lucas' entire body of work, or even Lucas himself. I just think a large proportion of the decisions he's made in the last ten years have been ill-advised.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
One more, because I can't resist.
Robot Rumble
R2D2 and C3PO vs Data and Lore.
"Beep! Be-beep, twirp, whistle beep." said RD.
"I know exactly what you mean," began C3PO. "I'm not much of a fighter either. I do hope the will spare us the indignity and just shoot us."
Data stepped forward. Lore stood next to him. Lore smiled, "Of all the powerful technocratic beings they could have teamed me up with, it had to be you. I mean a Borg, an XO-Comp, even one of Mudd's aquaintances could be more useful than you."
"Brother, having my nemisis fighting by my side does not encourage me either."
"Beep be-beep whistle, twirp"
"What is the little one saying?" asked Lore?
"Here, let me adjust my Universal translator."
Instead of beeps and whistles, RD suddenly had a voice. It was a deep, smooth, Barry White voice at that. RD said, "Well, hey there gorgeous." His one electronic eye winked at Data.
"Excuse me?" Data was confused.
"I think you've made a conquest little bro" laughed Lore. "That little phallic symbol on wheels likes you."
"Ohh, don't be jealous. There's enough of me to go around." RD whistled.
"We are here to fight." Data insisted.
"But I'm a lover, not a fighter."
"How dare you!" demanded C3PO. "What, am I not here? Don't you care that you are breaking my heart?"
"What, are you two a couple?" asked Lore.
"Well, duh." said C3PO. "I'm the high maintenance flamer, and he's the butch heart breaker. We're the most popular outted couple since Bert and Ernie. Aren't you two a couple?"
Lore looked at Data. Data looked at Lore. Both shivered and answered together. "No!"
C3PO turned to RD, "Denial." "Sure thing Baby." said R2. "But they are cute, especially the innocent one over there. Are you sure you wouldn't want a little personal interface?" R2's interface connection reached toward Data.
"Oooooooh! You are so mean to me." C3PO, on the verge of a crying jag, ran up to Data. "How could you, you homewrecker." Slap.
Lore grabbed C3PO by the arm. "Nobody slaps my brother." He then ripped C3PO's arm out of his sockent, and then tore him into several various peices.
C3PO screamed. Then he looked up at Lore and said, "More. I've been a bad bot. Punish me big boy."
With a snicker Lore kicked C3PO's head across the room, where it bounced off a wall and rolled to land at R2's feet. Lore then turned to Data. "Nobody touches my brother, but me."
He launched himself at Data, hoping to take him unawares, and totally destroy him. Data was not surprised, and the two began a long, heavilly choreographed fight scene.
R2D2 did what he has shown a penchant for doing through 6 dangerous movies. He sat quietly on the side. He did his best to impersonate a trashcan. As the two twins proceeded to destroy each other completely, C3PO looked up at R2D2. "You are so mean to me."
"Yeah, baby." said R2 before even the Universal Translator was destroyed by the twin-bots. "And you love it."
Victory R2 & C3
[ August 15, 2006, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: Dan_raven ]
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
quote:"That little phallic symbol on wheels likes you."
That's a winner.
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
Now people are wondering why I'm laughing so hard at my computer screen...
Posted by Gwen (Member # 9551) on :
I LOVE this thread! Especially the battles... Star Trek. And I haven't even watched much of it, either.
It is not nerdy that when someone mentioned "Klingon blade thingies" a type of Klingon weapon popped into my head unbidden. It's not, I tell you!
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
You know, Dan, I worry about you sometimes. And by "sometimes," I mean when I can stop laughing long enough to catch my breath.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Dan
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
These keep coming to me and I can't stop them: Please pardon all the misquotes to follow. I don't have time to look them up
Next Round:
Old Ben Kenobi (Old/Original ObiWan) vs Captain Picard Battle of the English Accent:
Picard set down his cup of Earl Grey tea and nodded respectfully as the long robed senior combatant entered the ring.
Obi-Wan lifted his un-lit saber from its holster and nodded back.
"Engage!" commanded Picard as he shot. The crowd applauded the line.
Obi-Wan deftly deflected the phaser fire with his light saber and slowly closed in on the Captain. "Indeed." he said.
Picard fired twice more, moving around the ring."
Obi-Won quickly deflected them. "If you kill me," he added. "Another will arise stronger than you can imagine."
The audience applauded the line with vigor.
"Indeed" said Picard. He stepped away from the slow moving Jedi who seemed to have none of the energy, flare, or special moves his younger self displayed in the later films. Time travel physics always gives me headaches too.
But Picard had no headache. He was willing to play to the crowd. "There Are THREEE Lights!!!" he yelled.
Obi-Wan was a bit confused, but the crowd loved it.
Obi-Wan smiled, then waved his hands at Picards direction. "These are not the droids you are looking for."
The crowd leapt to there feet.
Picard thought hard, searching 7 years of shows for one good line. Finally, he said,
"He that outlives this day, and comes safe home, Will stand a tip-toe when the day is named, And rouse him at the name of Crispian."
Obi-Wan stopped, immune to the applause of the crowd. He stared at Picard. "You got to do Shakespeare? Don't tell me that you got to do Shakespeare."
Picard smiled. "Certainly. We quoted Shakespear, Doyle, all the greats."
"Where's my agent. Marty! Marty! I'm stuck in a wool body-robe in the middle of the #@$#@$@# Sahara and he gets to do Shakespeare?"
Picard winced. Deserts were filled with sand dunes, and the one thing that was lethal to Picard--well to Patric Stewart--was DUNE.
"It gets worse my friend." Said Picard. He reached for the most lethal weapon possible. "Here are the lines your character gets to say in the prequels." He handed Obi-Won the scripts for Star Wars I-III (obtained from the computers database of course).
Obi-Wan looked them over, the screamed "Marty!!!!!, oh forget this." Using the force he grabbed Picard's phaser out of the captain's hand, and fired point blank into his own chest.
"At last, the pain is over."
"Rest in peice my Sir Guinness. Rest in peice."
Yet before he died he whispered one last bit of torture to Picard. "I won an Academy Award for the Bridge Over The River Kwai. This movie is my DUNE. This show is your River Kwai."
Picard paled.
Victory Picard.
Posted by Ecthalion (Member # 8825) on :
Since Babylon 5 and Firefly are not ones to pick. Trek > Wars
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
Dan, that was the most amazing thing I've ever read.
I hope your creative streak doesn't end just yet!
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:Star Wars or Star Trek?
Well, since Star Wars got me a free cruise, and since I had to pay for every Star Trek cruise and convention I've attended, I'll have to go with Star Wars. Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
That was awesome Dan, even better than your already awesome previous scenarios.
Now do #2 vs Han Solo PLEASE?!
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus:
quote:Star Wars or Star Trek?
Well, since Star Wars got me a free cruise, and since I had to pay for every Star Trek cruise and convention I've attended, I'll have to go with Star Wars.
I hate you, but in a nice way.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
quote:Now do #2 vs Han Solo PLEASE?!
Now you're bringing Austin Powers into this?
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
First a short one, really, the kids.
The two kids stared at each other across the arena.
"I'm not really a killer. I'm not a lover either. I just whine a lot and save the universe" explained Wesley Crusher to explain his lack of action. "Heck, they don't even trust me with a phaser."
The young kid, barely 9 if a day, shook his head in agreement. "I don't try to kill people either. I just get in these vehicles and next thing I know people are dieing."
"I'm glad there's no vehicle here." smiled Wesley. "I am older than you, and bigger. Maybe you should just give up."
"Oh, when I get older, I don't save the Universe, I sink it into utter despair and destruction. Kind of like your career after this show." Wesley flinched.
"Hey, at least I get a girl by the end of the show." snapped Wesley.
"Yeah!" pouted the punk kid, "By the end of the movie I actually sleep with one. That's something neither you nor ObiWan ever did."
"All right short stuff, at least I know who my father is--unless its Picard, which was hinted at a time or two, but hey, its definatley narrowed down to two people. And my mother lives, unlike yours."
"Don't get me mad. You won't like me when I'm mad."
"And what happens when you get mad short stuff?"
"I use The Force!"
"What's The Force?" snickered Wesley.
"I am" answered Chuck Norris, stepping out of the previous post--er--shadows. He then does the thing most requested at any Star-Trek convention. He round kick's Wesley Crusher's head clean off his shoulder, and into orbit. He then smiles at Anakin before disappearing back into the shadows.
In orbit Wesley's head slowly revolves to show Q's smiling at him. Q smiled, "Watching that was almost worth...this. Hey kid, here's a life lesson. Don't #@$@#$ with the Force."
Victory Anakin
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
PS. Myrddin, I greatly, greatly appreciate the compliment,
but,
if that was the most amazing thing you've ever read,
you really need to read more.
Posted by Gwen (Member # 9551) on :
*Wipes tear from eye* Beautiful. Just beautiful. Especially the part where that annoying son of a--er, I mean, when Wesley Crusher dies. Awesome.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow:
quote:Now do #2 vs Han Solo PLEASE?!
Now you're bringing Austin Powers into this?
oh sorry typo! #1 as in Commander Ryker.
For some reason I thought #2 as I was writing. I guess its because he is 2nd in command.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
If you can't tell #1 from #2, well, you may need to clean your underware.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_raven: If you can't tell #1 from #2, well, you may need to clean your underware.
underwEar?
I would think if you have either in your underwear its time to change it.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Dan, apparently, takes a more libertine approach to this whole underpants changing thing.
Posted by B34N (Member # 9597) on :
To be honest I don't even think it's close. i think star trek is miles and miles better. The characters in star wars are more threadbare than those in Spencer's Faire Queen, Lucas seemed to lose all ability to draw characters effectively after American Grafitti. Sure he and Steven came up with Indiana Jones together but as far as I can see beyond Han Solo, what great character did he develop following Grafitti? I can't think of any.
Empire, and 4 and 6 to a degree mesmerized me as a kid, great stuff, but it doesn't hold up, even a little, over the passage of time, beyond Empire. The dialogue and acting are wooden, the characters are cardboard, and by the time of the prequel's he was just seemingly interested in manufacturing money, what a collosal nightmare it was to see that nearly twenty years of time to flesh out the prequel's resulted in the elephant poop that was Phantom Debacle, and Attack of the Plotless Movie Clones.
I understand why people love it, David Brin wrote some great essays about it still archived in his website that speak to that love but I also agree with much of Brin's critique, far more well reasoned and argued than any I could come up with. Apparently Brin and another guy have even written a book involving putting Star Wars on trial (just came out in June). Suffice it to say, the movies connected with me as a child and some aspects of them still do, particularly Han Solo, the father and son redemption arc, and the 4th, 5th and 6th episodes which range from solid to very good.
But when I watch star trek there is a lot more depth and complexity to it, far more really, better characterization, plotting, story arcs, acting and beyond, the only problems star trek has had has been in the inconsistency of its movies, a few have been great (I, II, IV, VI, VIII) but just as many have been mediocre or poor but unlike Star Wars which suffered the same problem, Star Trek could redeem itself with TNG, DS-9, Voyager (which came into it's own after struggling badly in its first 18 months on the air), the original, and even the most recent.
My only question with regards to Star Trek is why they never chose to create a movie built entirely around Klingons. Watching some of the Klingon eps particularly with TNG you really grasp the potential richness of a movie based on them entirely, I've always been baffled as to why they did not do that, or at bare minimum a movie built around them and the federation with the klingons the centerpiece (rather than III, or VI, which featured heavy Klingon involvement, but not in the same sense).
Suffice it to say, Star Wars touched something deeper in me as a child, but Star Trek was always better to me in all ways that mattered over the passage of time.
Last night I saw the TNG episode where Worf kills the embassador who dishonored his father. It was very good.
Posted by graywolfe (Member # 3852) on :
btw in terms of language, STNG had that absolutely classic episode in which Picard and an alien dual with some stealth bipedal cloaking device using triceratops thing. The whole episode revolves around trying to figure out a way to communicate with another species/culture which is utterly alien finally finding resolution in the metaphor concept. That episode was beyond brilliant and was one of the best pieces of entertainment I've ever seen. Fantastic stuff.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
quote:My only question with regards to Star Trek is why they never chose to create a movie built entirely around Klingons.
They have made at least one videogame entirely around them.
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
Best not to mention that, Nighthawk. (I assume you are talking about Klingon Honor Guard)
Posted by B34N (Member # 9597) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nighthawk:
quote:My only question with regards to Star Trek is why they never chose to create a movie built entirely around Klingons.
They have made at least one videogame entirely around them.
Star Trek VI was technically about them? More than any other movie at least. That might be an interesting series.
Posted by B34N (Member # 9597) on :
By the way did anyone watch the William Shatner Roast on Comedy Central?
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Per Requests:
Battle of the Testoserone:
Han Solo vs Commander William Riker.
The two manly men enter the battle arena, weapon conspicously holstered. The formal martial arts bow has been minimized by these man to the most manly quick nod of the head.
"Didn't Captain Cisco kill you earlier?" Riker asked?
"Yeah. But I'm Harrison Ford. I got better."
Riker nodded understanding. "Well if he could do it, then I guess this shouldn't be difficult for me."
"He is a Captain, a ship's commander. I am a ship's commander. You never got out of your Captain's shadow."
"Yeah, but I got something my Captain, and you, hardly ever received--sex."
"Hey. I get the Princess in the end." Ford responded.
"Yeah, well I got three princesses, twelve bar maids, five holographic porn stars, and one she-male in an episode about sexual discrimmination that I'm still trying to forget. And that is far from the whole list."
Miffed Han retorted, "Yeah, well, my gun's much bigger than your's is. I don't know how you can even find that piddly little thing."
"I've had no complaints." argued an angered Riker. Why did they wait till DS9 to pass out those big manly guns anyway. "At least I don't have the name Han Solo. Sounds like the love life of some of our more pathetic fans..."
"Wait a minute. The site moderator doesn't want this becoming one of "those" types of threads."
"Oh, excuse me." Riker called up to our moderator. "Where were we?"
Han looked around. "I think we were about done with our witty banter. I'm done. You?"
Riker pulled out a computer pad with some banter notes carefully prepared. "Um, yes. Mostly good. I could get into the whole, 'Blasters can't hit their targets' thing..."
"Hey." interupted Han, "Most blaster's can't hit anything they are pointed towards. Mine is special. I hit more things while blinded than the entire Empirical Army for the past 2 years. Trust me, you'll find out all about my accuracy shortly."
"Then I'm ready. Whenever you are."
A moment of silence filled the arena.
With a flash, Han's blaster cleared his holster before Riker could find his small phaser. But Han didn't shoot. He dove to the floor and spun around. As he guessed, George Lucas's digital hand was coming into the fight to re-edit it. He was attempting to again stop Han from shooting first.
Han shot first, several times, directly at Lucas.
Riker did the only honorable thing. He also shot Lucas. With a thud, Lucas's abused body fell from the digital workshop onto the battlefloor.
Han stood up. "Do you have any idea how long I've wanted to do that?"
Riker moved over to the body. "He's dead Han. I wonder if I've violated the prime directive. Murder? What are the legal..."
"Riker, calm down." Han's smile was large. "Let me explain. I appreciate your help. You'll never know how much." With that he shot Riker. "But honestly, I have one advantage that you missed." He shot Riker again. "I was a pirate, a smuggler, a bad man living in bad times. I just don't have that high Starfleet ethical code you do." He fired a third time, obliterating Riker's smile, and his ability to play annoying saxophones ever again. "Thank's Commander, but now I have to go."
Victory Han Solo.
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
::applause::
I really enjoy the running jokes Posted by B34N (Member # 9597) on :
Yeah, I like how hte newer fights carry over from the other fights too.
Posted by narrativium (Member # 3230) on :
graywolfe, you though Star Trek: The Motion Picture was great?
I'd say it was almost as bad as the Phantom Menace.
Posted by Ecthalion (Member # 8825) on :
star trek 1 was bad, 2 was good, 3 was good, 4 was good but pushing it. 5 was funny but bad and 6 was pretty good. 7 was good, 8 was imo the best one. 9 & 10 not so good
Posted by Tante Shvester (Member # 8202) on :
quote:At least I don't have the name Han Solo. Sounds like the love life of some of our more pathetic fans
Lovely.
Posted by B34N (Member # 9597) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester:
quote:At least I don't have the name Han Solo. Sounds like the love life of some of our more pathetic fans
Lovely.
Posted by Humean316 (Member # 8175) on :
Seeing as Ive never seen an episode or movie in the Star Trek realm, I couldnt tell you which one. I love Star Wars though, and...wait for it...I love Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith. Phantom of the Menace is alright too. LOL, you may make fun all you would like.
Posted by B34N (Member # 9597) on :
All of those are good movies, I don't know if people will make fun of you for your opinion but they may say you are wrong?
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
mmm... "holographic porn stars"...
Huh? What? Who?
Well done. Carry on.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
The Battle of Evil
The Emporer slowly walks into the battle arena, limping on his sickly cane. His blood-red cloaked gaurds allow him to enter. "Where is this $#@$#@ I'm supposed to fight!" he demands.
Hey, have you priced the cost of parking orbit for a Death Star? Its enough to make anyone grumpy.
Suddenly the air shimmers as the Borg Queen transports into position. "We are here."
"We?" grumbled the old man, "I was told this was a one on one fight. I do much better getting stupid people to fight for me."
"I was using the royal we. Or more exactly, the hive-mind we. For I am the queen, but I am we as well."
"Vanity. I can understand vanity. What are the rules?"
"Why? So you can break them?" The Borg queen asked?
"Well, yes." Bolts of white lightening flew from his hands, sending the queen flying across the floor. He laughed.
She rose up. "Very interesting. We shall incorporate that technology."
Another batch of lightening went flying from the Emporer's hands, but they reflected harmlessly off of her newly adjusted shields.
"My turn." she said quietly. "Resistance is futile." She raised her weapon, which suddenly went flying from her hand with a wave of the Emporer's hand.
Frustrated, she charged. He charged. They met, hands grabbing hands, each apparently trying to force the other to their knees.
Actually, a much more signifigant battle was going on. Millions of Borg Nano-bots were trying desparately to infiltrate and absorb the Emporer. Meanwhile millions of tiny Milochloridian's were fighting back. For about a minute the two stood there waging a microscopic war that was as heated as it was, well, boring to us viewers.
Suddenly a wierd noice filled the room. Three rings descended out of the ceiling. A light filled them, and when they settled down, a strange Egyptian looking man stood tall.
The two combatants, still locked in microscopic mortal combat, turned and stared. "Who are you!" they demanded on cue.
"I am Ba'al, greatest of the Ghouh'lAud."
The two looked at each other, and broke apart. The Borg said, "Why are you here, other than to be assimilated?"
"I bring a suggestion, an offer of peice, a way to bring victory to all of us."
"What are you babbling about?" asked the Emporer.
"In each of our respective universes, we each face defeat at the hands of our enemies. We have only one thing in common. This realm. Yet worse than defeat is--true death. Once we are fogotten we can never return. Movies are limited. Series end. But in one realm we can exist forever. In one realm, we can be victorious far more than we are defeated. In one realm can we each survive, prosper, and when our enemies gain to much strength, pull the strings that will make there power flee."
"What realm are you speaking of?" the Borg asked.
"Video Games."
"I have heard of these Video Games." The Emporer acknowledged.
"Join with me. We slip back in time a few years, and start our own company to produce them. We create our own worlds that can insure our continuation and prosperity."
The Borg calculated the facts. "I agree. We three can do this."
The Emporer considered, "To bring the Dark Side to the Gaming World? It is my destiny."
There was a flash and they were gone.
You doubt my tale? Line up the Borg Cube, the Death Star, and a GouhlAud Pyramid ship. What do you get? EA's original Logo.
Victory Evil
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
quote:You doubt my tale? Line up the Borg Cube, the Death Star, and a GouhlAud Pyramid ship. What do you get? EA's original Logo.
Holy crap, OF COURSE! It all makes sense now!!!
Posted by B34N (Member # 9597) on :
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Star Trek: The Motion Picture was awful. No Star Wars movie was as bad as that.
For that matter, no Star Wars movie was as bad as Star Treks III and V either.
In fact, few movies in history have been as bad as Star Trek V. Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote:Originally posted by Icarus: In fact, few movies in history have been as bad as Star Trek V.
Very true. And STTMP was pretty awful. But I liked STIII:TSfS!
And Dan, that last one was inspired! Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
I was going to do Troi vs Queen Imadala, but they were so sweet and bashfully innocent towards each other that the entire audience went into a diabetic coma. Nobody remembers who won, or cares.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
What about R2 vs. a Tricorder?
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
I still would like to see a Lando v. Sulu fight, or possibly a Hutt v. Ferengi showdown.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan_raven: Per Requests:
Battle of the Testoserone:
Han Solo vs Commander William Riker.
The two manly men enter the battle arena, weapon conspicously holstered. The formal martial arts bow has been minimized by these man to the most manly quick nod of the head.
"Didn't Captain Cisco kill you earlier?" Riker asked?
"Yeah. But I'm Harrison Ford. I got better."
Riker nodded understanding. "Well if he could do it, then I guess this shouldn't be difficult for me."
"He is a Captain, a ship's commander. I am a ship's commander. You never got out of your Captain's shadow."
"Yeah, but I got something my Captain, and you, hardly ever received--sex."
"Hey. I get the Princess in the end." Ford responded.
"Yeah, well I got three princesses, twelve bar maids, five holographic porn stars, and one she-male in an episode about sexual discrimmination that I'm still trying to forget. And that is far from the whole list."
Miffed Han retorted, "Yeah, well, my gun's much bigger than your's is. I don't know how you can even find that piddly little thing."
"I've had no complaints." argued an angered Riker. Why did they wait till DS9 to pass out those big manly guns anyway. "At least I don't have the name Han Solo. Sounds like the love life of some of our more pathetic fans..."
"Wait a minute. The site moderator doesn't want this becoming one of "those" types of threads."
"Oh, excuse me." Riker called up to our moderator. "Where were we?"
Han looked around. "I think we were about done with our witty banter. I'm done. You?"
Riker pulled out a computer pad with some banter notes carefully prepared. "Um, yes. Mostly good. I could get into the whole, 'Blasters can't hit their targets' thing..."
"Hey." interupted Han, "Most blaster's can't hit anything they are pointed towards. Mine is special. I hit more things while blinded than the entire Empirical Army for the past 2 years. Trust me, you'll find out all about my accuracy shortly."
"Then I'm ready. Whenever you are."
A moment of silence filled the arena.
With a flash, Han's blaster cleared his holster before Riker could find his small phaser. But Han didn't shoot. He dove to the floor and spun around. As he guessed, George Lucas's digital hand was coming into the fight to re-edit it. He was attempting to again stop Han from shooting first.
Han shot first, several times, directly at Lucas.
Riker did the only honorable thing. He also shot Lucas. With a thud, Lucas's abused body fell from the digital workshop onto the battlefloor.
Han stood up. "Do you have any idea how long I've wanted to do that?"
Riker moved over to the body. "He's dead Han. I wonder if I've violated the prime directive. Murder? What are the legal..."
"Riker, calm down." Han's smile was large. "Let me explain. I appreciate your help. You'll never know how much." With that he shot Riker. "But honestly, I have one advantage that you missed." He shot Riker again. "I was a pirate, a smuggler, a bad man living in bad times. I just don't have that high Starfleet ethical code you do." He fired a third time, obliterating Riker's smile, and his ability to play annoying saxophones ever again. "Thank's Commander, but now I have to go."
Victory Han Solo.
BRAVO! Posted by B166ER (Member # 6380) on :
why do I always read the title os this threads as "The Star Wars Trek"? Posted by B34N (Member # 9597) on :
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Great stuff Dan!
Posted by GeronL (Member # 9674) on :
quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow: I still would like to see a Lando v. Sulu fight, or possibly a Hutt v. Ferengi showdown.
Sulu would fall in love... Posted by narrativium (Member # 3230) on :
You know what I want to see? The Force v. Jack Bauer.
'cause you know Jack would win.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Battle of the Greedy Quark vs Jabba the Hutt
Quark pierced the quiet with the famous Ferengi battle cry, which resembles the scream of a 13 year old girl, a really really annoying 13 year old girl. And I think that is an insult to the screams of 13 year old girls everywhere. Even as the bulk of Jabba began to enter the ring, Quark was protesting. He demanded and cursed those responsible for this fight.
”Mortal combat is against my religion! Especially since I’m the one most likely to face that mortality” he yelled. “The 8th rule of acquisition clearly states, THERE IS NO PROFIT IN DIEING. In other peoples deaths, maybe, but not in our own. Ferengi do not fight to the death. We hire others to do it for us. Let me go buy a couple of Klingons. I’ll be right back, I promise.”
The gods of the arena were deaf to his calls, though Jabba the Hutt let out a deep base snicker. In a moment the “Universal Translator” kicked in. For the first time we could all begin to understand the muted rumblings of Jabba, which sounded identical to the muted mumblings of one Don Corleone. “Dear fellow,” he chuckled as he finished entering the ring, “I wish to make you an offer you cannot refuse…”
Quark looked at the slugman and gasped. “What offer.”
The Hutt reared up on its back—um—back. “You can die…”
Quark gulped. “Or what?”
The Hutt paused. “There is no Or. You can die.” With that its titanic bulk pounced forward with an earth shattering THUMP. It was a blatant attempt to smash the Ferengi under 5.2 tons of Hutt blubber.
Quark had rolled out of the way. “Well that is down right unfair. There has to be an ‘or.’ What kind of trader are you if you don’t allow for an ‘or’? How about ‘die or play a nice game of dum-jat?”
The Hutt lifted his front torso back up, taking better aim. “The Hutt do not waste time on games.” Thud, and miss again.
“Understandable, boring but understandable” said the running Quark, “How about a bribe? Would that be a good ‘or’?”
The Hutt paused. “What kind of bribe.”
Quark paused. “How about I surrender. You win, but let me live. I’ll go home and send you some credits as soon as I can.”
The Hutt shook his head. “You will pay now. I take cash, gems, or favored children as payment.”
Quark did a quick body check. “Sorry, I don’t have any on me. Just let me…” even as he headed for any exit he could imagine, the Hutt towered up again.
“Stand still and die you poor little cowardly being.”
“Would you accept a nephew? I swear he’s only…wait. What did you say?”
The Hutt was at his height. “I called you a poor little cowardly being.” Thud.
The Ferengi was quick. “I may be little compared to your bulk, and I won’t question the cowardly part, but I am not poor. You never call a Ferengi poor. Understand slug breath?”
“You insult me?” Jabba was now upset. “ You talk’n to me? You talk’n to me?”
“Yes you overweight earslug. I am not scared of you. I survived marriage to a Klingon woman. You were killed by a mere female, a human female.”
“Yes,” said the irritated Jabba, for no one insults a Hutt. “I was killed by that female, but I succeeded in something that you never did. I had my way with her first.”
“You slept with Princess Leia?” Quark gasped.
“With a name like that, and seeing the way she was dressed in that scene, do you doubt it?”
“Liar!!!” yelled a voice from up in the stands, sounding much like Carrie Fischer. A hurled piece of junk flew threw the air from the crowd, and bounced off of Jabba’s head, slid down his back, and got stuck in one of the unmanly folds of his skin.
Jabba just laughed. “And I am not named after the smallest sub-atomic particle known to science, little male.”
Quark stood up tall, well as tall as he could. “Its not the smallest sub-atomic particle, and hey, at least I am not named after a greasy pizza joint, that I resemble in girth if not in aroma.”
With a roar, Jabba pounced, up and down, trying with all of his might, and none of his dignity, to squish the small Ferengi. Jabba was so tired of that Pizza The Hut crack. It was old. Ok. Old.
Quark ran.
Glancing around to find a place to hide, he realized there was only one place where he was safe from being squished, and out of Jabba’s arm’s reach. With a feint left, he dove right, jumped once, and landed on Jabba’s back.
“Mua’Dib!!” yelled someone in the audience.
He was quickly slapped down by others in the audience.
“Now, big boy, Mr. Hutt sir, now what will you do?” Quark held on tightly to the flabs of skin half way up Jabba’s back.
Jabba laughed. “I’ll roll over.”
Quark laughed. “I don’t think so, tubbo. You roll over, you’ll never get back up.”
“We Hutt,” said Jabba, “Are much more dexterous than we look.” With that he began to ponderously roll onto his side, preparing to move to his back.
”You’d have to be, if you were to ever reproduce” mumbled Quark, while in desperation he searched for anything that could help him. He found it. That piece of junk, tossed earlier, that had bonked Jabba’s head, was still there. He wrenched it free of the folds of skin. It was Han’s blaster. The same blaster that Leia had used to blast Captain Janeway. Quark climbed to the top of Jabba’s head, and dug the barrel in. “Stay still and we can, negotiate.”
For a moment Jabba froze. Then he growled, “The Hutt do not negotiate.” He tried to throw himself backwards, bucking the gun and the Ferengi free.
Quark panicked, and in his panic pulled the trigger….
Twenty five times.
There are few things in this universe more dangerous than a cornered animal, a mother protecting its young, a Klingon with a flesh wound, and a Ferengi who is not allowed to negotiate.
Victory Quark.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
ah, he has to say it like hyoo-man like Ferengi do in the show.
And everyone knows Hutts are asexual.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
That's what they say, but how else explain the slave girl costume?
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
Hahahaha!
Imagining Jabba say "You talkin' to me?" is extremely amusing!
Posted by B34N (Member # 9597) on :
bump
Posted by Shepherd (Member # 7380) on :
Star Trek is unconquerable!
Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
Trek, because the three most recent SW fils are so freakin' stupid that they ruined the whole series for me.
Trek, on the other hand, was incredibly goofy from the start.
Posted by Libbie (Member # 9529) on :
Trek, because the three most recent SW fils are so freakin' stupid that they ruined the whole series for me.
Trek, on the other hand, was incredibly goofy from the start.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
After long hours of soulful debate, I realized why so many of Lucas's characters did not speak English.
This was not an attack on the standard short cut taken in shows like Star Trek, where everyone speaks English just to make it simple.
This was not a linguists attempt to enlighten the audience with his skills at creating a complete and accurate language, hoping others will take up the field of study much in neglect.
No my friends, George Lucas had so many of his characters, and many of them the most beloved of his characters, speak their own language for one simple reason.
George Lucas can not write dialogue.
Proof?
Best loved enduring characters--Chewbacca, R2D2, the Ewoks, did not speak.
The villians were the most villianous when they were not speaking English: Jabba the Hutt, Boba-Fett after his childhood, Qweedo, The Emporer before he starts his soliloqy in episode 6, Darth Vader when he's just breathing.
Most hated characters--JarJar, The romantic Anakin/Amadala, and any time dialogue was attempted.
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
Hmmm, I do believe that both Libbie and Dan_raven hit the nail(s) on the head.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
I dunno Carrie Fisher was a little minx just about EVERY time she said something and I liked it.
And she had that whole "Anti damsel in distress persona" that I personally found kinda hot. "Arn't you a bit short for a storm trooper?"
Han Solo in just about ANY conversation made it pretty awesome. Though I wonder how many of those lines were scripted and how many were ad libbed, only the actors know!
Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :
I want to see Beverly Crusher take on someone... but who? Senator Organa?
And didn't Riker play the Trombone and not a Sax?
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
I think also that George Lucas has never had a meaningful and healthy relationship with a woman, and therefore can't write them realistically.
I mean, Leia was essentially a tomboy in Ep 4 but got a little more romantic/sexy under different directors and screenwriters. The only other female characters in 4-6 were: Aunt Beru, Mon Mothma, Oola the twi'lek girl in Jabba's palace, the big six breasted dancer in jabba's palace, the twins in Mos Eisley, and the control room girl from Hoth. With so few women, it's amazing the size of the population.
In Ep 1-3, he tried to do a love story/tragedy with Amidala, and every scene where she was acting as something other than a tomboy/servant was just dreadful. Ep 5-6 totally drove home for me that Lucas has no idea how women think at all - give up the will to live after giving birth to two kids? What?
Posted by B34N (Member # 9597) on :
I think Lucas is married.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I don't buy the anti-woman argument. So far as the tomboy thing goes, so what? She was a warrior princess basically, you wanted her to look like Xena throughout the movies? She was looking pretty damned feminine at the end of Ep IV.
I agree that the love story with Amidala and Anakin is just whacked, it's messed up and could have been done a lot cleaner. But just because there are relatively few female characters, (1/3 the leading cast of Han Solo, Luke Skywalker, and Leia) in the leading roles, doesn't really mean all that much about the state of the galaxy. It's a military organization fighting a military organization. How many women characters are in all the war movies you've ever seen? How many of them are actually fighting?
edit to add: So far as I know, Lucas is divorced, but has a couple of kids with him.
Posted by B34N (Member # 9597) on :
Okay, was married, that doesn't help my argument much, oh well.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
It's just what I felt after walking out of Eps 5 and 6. My first thought was "Has this guy ever even spoken to a woman?" Because the character of Amidala was just awful and unrealistic at nearly every step.
After that, I thought back to Eps 4-6, and realized just how few women characters were even pictured. I mean, if Mon Mothma and Princess Leia were in massively key roles of the Rebellion - how are there not other women besides the one in the control room on Hoth?
I just got the feeling that Lucas isn't comfortable writing or directing women. And with Amidala such a central and important character, that was a disaster - if nothing else, he was not comfortable writing or directing that role.
Are there any realistic, fleshed out women in his other movies? I haven't really thought about it until now.
Posted by B34N (Member # 9597) on :
To his credit there was a Jedi woman. She also just happens to work for ILM.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I actually liked Amidala in Episode I. She was an unapologetically strong female leader.
I think the biggest mistake Lucas made was the change in her character between Episode I and Episode III. Why did she go from a strong independent woman to a weak, crying, useless, helpless woman? There's no logic at all to that character progression.
I think that he improved a lot in Episode III, but the things that were major problems in III, were things that he largely DIDN'T mess up in I. It boggles my mind how he managed to screw it up, but he did.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
He succeeded with Amidala in Ep 1 because he didn't direct or write her as a woman. Amidala could have been replaced by a prince, and nothing would have changed.
It fell apart when she had to be a woman in the second film, and interact with a man romantically. That seemed to weaken her character considerably - because I don't think Lucas could reconcile romance/sexuality and strength. She became a twittering teenager instead of a war hero, senator, and former head of state.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
Wait a minute, so strong female character DON'T count as females at all?
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Wait a minute, so strong female character DON'T count as females at all?
I think she doesn't count as female because she couldn't fall in love with Anakin without turning into a whiny wuss who pissed me off to no end.
-pH
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
Hear, hear!
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
That's not what he said at first though, he said her character easily could have been a man, which is to say, that strong female characters aren't really female, they are just women playing the roles of men.
I've said over and over that her transformation from kickass Queen, and even kickass Senator, to wimpy, crybaby loser was wretched, and was easily my least favorite part of the entire six part series. It was a let down. But Episodes I and II Amidala were both very strong female characters, and I think it's patently unfair to say that their strength somehow precludes them from being included as a female in a movie.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Let's face it, Ep. III just plain sucked. Sucked in sooo many ways. I mean, come on, robotty thing with a withered heart and a wheeze and multiple lightsabers? Mace Windu stands there and waits to be killed? Padme neither looks nor acts pregnant, much less with twins, but then gives birth (oh, and by the way we have miracle medicine but no way to make labor not hurt, apparently-- and also, you could tell that Lucas has never had kids, his are adopted, right? The emotion was all wrong in that scene), and dies of what appears to be a broken heart? And of course, there's the limbless "Noooooooo"-screaming Anakin of the end.
Shoot, it's enough to make me want to write fanfic, because pretty much every fanfic conception of Ep. III I read before it came out was better than that movie.
I have to admit, I laughed through most of the movie.
Also:
quote:And everyone knows Hutts are asexual.
Nuh-uh. They go through distinct male and female phases. Some, like Jabba, just happen to have perverted (to the Hutt mind) tastes.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
I didn't think it sucked, I didn't think any of the prequels out and out sucked, though I thought all of them were flawed, most more heavily than others. I enjoyed them. They weren't as "good" as the originals, but I enjoyed them.
As for the Hutts. Hutts always refer to their parent, such as Durga referring to Aruk. Jiliac impregnated herself, though yes, she switched from male to female to do it, she still didn't require another Hutt for the process, doesn't that still make it asexual reproduction?
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Are we sure there wasn't another Hutt involved? I always wondered about that, it wasn't so much explicit.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
Lyrhawn, in a totally technical sense, is there *anything* in Episode 1 regarding Amidala's character that required a woman to play the part? Is there any plot or character point in the film that would have changed if Amidala was was Amidal, the Prince of Naboo? Or Amid-4 the Droid Regent of 9-Boo? Or some neuter/3rd alien gender head of state of some other alien world?
Amidala was a strong character, yes. That she happened to be a woman is irrelevant to her story arc in Episode 1.
Lucas could have as easily replaced Yoda, Mace Windu, or Quigon with women without altering their characters or their dialogue one bit. Doing that, though, wouldn't make them strong woman characters - it would make them strong characters that just arbitrarily happened to be women.
Which is what Amidala was in Ep 1. Gender didn't play a part anywhere, so far as I saw. If I'm wrong, and there is something I missed in the first film that made it important for Amidala to be a woman (short of our outside-of-the-film knowledge that at some point in the future she'd be Luke and Leia's mother), please let me know.
As soon as it became important to the plot that she was a woman (somewhere in Episode 2), her character started to implode - finally collapsing in Episode 3 when she became pregnant and near useless in Lucas' story. I don't think Lucas could reconcile the strength she showed as a person in the first movie with the images of femininity/love/motherhood he wanted in the second and third movies. And that's to his detriment.
Marion in Raiders of the Lost Ark was a strong female character - but then, that was directed by Spielberg.
Posted by Lyrhawn (Member # 7039) on :
KQ -
More or less everything I know about Hutts is from the Han Solo Trilogy. And some from the other collected shor stories. But they always refer to their parent, never with the plural, and in the first book, they never come right out and explain Hutt phsiology, but it's pretty well stated that they choose when to change gender and become pregnant.
FlyingCow-
I apologize for even getting tangled in the argument. I've been over arguing about Star Wars and Lucas for a couple years now, and yet I still allow myself to be pulled back in. Think what you will. I think you're wrong, in general, but that's about as far as I'm willing to go.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
You folks care a little bit too much about the love life of Hutts.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
Fair enough, Lyr.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
Since we are all channeling Lucas hate. I don't understand how he could write a "Hero who rises to greatness" character as well as he did, and then totally fail at drawing it's polar opposite. Anakin's fall into the dark side was just so unconvincing for me. I dont think it was the actors fault either.
Anakin was supposed to have been "Seduced" by the dark side. Almost as if the potential the dark side had to offer him allowed him to forsake all that was good in his life. So what was the deal with him cutting off Mace Windu's hand? I mean the emperor is screaming, "Save me! Save me! I'm going to die! But I have the power you WANT! I HAVE THE POWER!!!"
Would you be very impressed if the man who is going to imbue you with the ultimate power can't even kill Mace Windu? Not only that, he had to use treachery and droids to kill all the other Jedi's because he himself could not handle them?
My last gripe:
WHAT WAS THE DEAL WITH AMIDALA NAMING THE TWINS? It would have been better written if her grunts and groans had been misinterpreted as names. Come on do it in your head, you know it works.
Where did she pull those names from? Would it have been so hard for her and Anakin to have just a short scene where they discuss the birth of the twins and what they would like to name them?
edited for spelling and clarity
[ August 29, 2006, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: BlackBlade ]
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
Well, the initial trilogy relied heavily on the archetypal hero myth used to great effect in stories for a couple thousand years. If you're interested, pick up a copy of Joseph Campbell's The Hero with a Thousand Faces, which has been described as the clothesline on which Lucas hung all the images in his head.
The story works so well in Eps 4-6 because we've already heard it for King Arthur, Perseus, Theseus, etc. etc.
For Eps 1-3, he had to come up with the story on his own... and he decided to go with a trade embargo and an immaculately conceived unstable whiny young Anakin.
Don't even get me started on the end of Ep 3... that was just awful.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Episode 4 was an even more specific story -- it extensively drew plot, including specific scenes, from The Hidden Fortress (a Kurosawa film).
Posted by narrativium (Member # 3230) on :
quote:Originally posted by MyrddinFyre: Hear, hear!
Thank you. Posted by B34N (Member # 9597) on :
I thought episode III was the best out of all of them. But there are flaws in it. The fact that Anakin's fall is a little weak but I just think there wasn't enough time to fit it all in the film. I think there should be a film in between 3 and 4 that describes the fall of Anakin in more detail?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Actually, Hero With a Thousand Faces came out afterStar Wars. Posted by Kasie H (Member # 2120) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: WHAT WAS THE DEAL WITH AMIDALA NAMING THE TWINS? It would have been better written if her grunts and groans had been misinterpreted as names. Come on do it in your head, you know it works.
Where did she pull those names from? Would it have been so hard for her and Anakin to have just a short scene where they discuss the birth of the twins and what they would like to name them?
Maybe because Anakin didn't know she was having twins? And that's how Leia went undiscovered until the fight scene in tESB?
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
narr, you noticed! That was totally all for you Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kasie H:
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: WHAT WAS THE DEAL WITH AMIDALA NAMING THE TWINS? It would have been better written if her grunts and groans had been misinterpreted as names. Come on do it in your head, you know it works.
Where did she pull those names from? Would it have been so hard for her and Anakin to have just a short scene where they discuss the birth of the twins and what they would like to name them?
Maybe because Anakin didn't know she was having twins? And that's how Leia went undiscovered until the fight scene in tESB?
And to think I thought Anakin was especially gifted with the force.
Posted by Kasie H (Member # 2120) on :
I'm confused...
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Yeah, that's the other thing that really bugged me about that pregnancy (besides her having no symptoms and looking four months along with a singleton when she was, apparently, full-term with twins)-- with all that advanced technology AND the Force, no one knew she was pregnant with twins? Did she have ANY prenatal care? Sheesh.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
quote:Actually, Hero With a Thousand Faces came out after Star Wars.
No, actually, The Hero with a Thousand Faces came out in 1949, and has been reprinted several times since (with those reprinted after SW using an image of Luke Skywalker on the cover).
There's a lot of commentary about it here which also includes parallels in The Matrix.
Posted by B34N (Member # 9597) on :
That's a cool site thanks for the link. Books inspire all movies in one way or another I think, nothing is completely original anymore?
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
Here is another link that has quotes from Lucas regarding his use of Campbell's work.
Posted by Nighthawk (Member # 4176) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kasie H:
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade: WHAT WAS THE DEAL WITH AMIDALA NAMING THE TWINS? It would have been better written if her grunts and groans had been misinterpreted as names. Come on do it in your head, you know it works.
Where did she pull those names from? Would it have been so hard for her and Anakin to have just a short scene where they discuss the birth of the twins and what they would like to name them?
Maybe because Anakin didn't know she was having twins? And that's how Leia went undiscovered until the fight scene in tESB?
The fight scene you refer to was in Ep6, no?
Posted by Kasie H (Member # 2120) on :
Whoops, yeah, I think you're right.
"Sister. So you have a twin sister. Your feelings have now betrayed her, too."
Posted by B34N (Member # 9597) on :
Yeah, the whole Anakin didn't know she had twins thing doesn't make much sense.
It made a whole lot more sense when I assumed that Anakin left his wife before he even knew she was pregnant, then he never would have had the chance to learn. But someone as force sensitive as he was, should have been able to detect the force sensitive life within his wife, especially whilst hugging her.
It made sense before Episode III, but now I'd call it a plot hole.
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