I pre-ordered EMPIRE on amazon.com a while back, and just got an e-mail from Amazon with the subject line "Amazon.com recommends Treason and more."
Last time I order from them, the filthy traitors.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
Treason's a good book.
Posted by Seatarsprayan (Member # 7634) on :
I like it, I just reread it a few weeks ago. I'd love to see 2006 Card write that story though, since he's learned a lot about writing since those early days.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
I wonder what the "and more" is.
-pH
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
Dun dun DUNNN.
Posted by T_Smith (Member # 3734) on :
With Amazon, the only thing they ever have recommended me is the Superman DVD Collection with all four. This is based upon someone providing the incorrect email address when Ordering Superman, The DVD Collection.
I wrote a long letter to amazon, explaining why I would never order Superman 3 and 4 on DVD, and that poor Christopher Reeves must have been blackmailed into making those movies. Coincidently, I argued that Batman was a better superhero, while having less powers that Superman, and that should they care to provide me with tickets to the premier of Batman Begins, I would be more than thrilled.
After my page long nerd rant, I send the letter.
They never responded.
Posted by jd2cly60 (Member # 450) on :
quote:I like it, I just reread it a few weeks ago. I'd love to see 2006 Card write that story though, since he's learned a lot about writing since those early days.
You know, that's funny, I've never read Treason, but I did read A Planet called Treason, I wonder how much he learned about writing in between those two... Posted by Mig (Member # 9284) on :
I was first a bit excited about the subject of this post, because a certain book titled Treason is also one of my favortite books. Then I got a little confused by all the references to Card. Not until jd2cly60's post did I figure out that the discussion was NOT about Treason: Liberal Treachery from the Cold War to the War on Terrorism by Ann Coulter, which is a great book.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Ann Coulter is good at something? This is certainly news. Inform the loyal press, Fox!
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
I'd love to see 2006 Card write that Ender's Game story though, since he's learned a lot about writing since those early days.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
quote:poor Christopher Reeves must have been blackmailed into making those movies
You want to know something sad about Superman 4? Christopher Reeve had more creative control over that movie than on any other one in the series.
Posted by JennaDean (Member # 8816) on :
quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow: I'd love to see 2006 Card write that Ender's Game story though, since he's learned a lot about writing since those early days.
He did, it's called Ender's Shadow. Posted by Cyronist (Member # 9691) on :
Treason was an awesome book
Posted by Silencio (Member # 12398) on :
I made this post here cause it referred to a planet called treason and amazon.com and I didn't want to be selfish with a new thread.
I was reading an amazon.com review that said the first original print of the book a planet call treason contained The N word instead of the word Inkers.
Does anyone know if this is true or just someone making stuff up?
The reason this bothered me is because OSC is a mormon and there is racist stories in the book of Mormon. I am not saying he is a racist. And I have have no proof that he is racist. It is possible to be a Mormon and not believe the racist parts of the religious text. I am simply worried that he might be and would like someone to answer my question about the N word in a planet called treason.
(Link removed by Janitor Blade. The ideas you are discussing are not forbidden territory, and so far you have been mostly respectful, but the website in this link is certainly a site that is designed to disparage belief in Mormonism, and that cannot be permitted on this BB. Towards the end you express awe that Mr. Card can be open-minded and yet belong to a close-minded society. That's pretty close to disparaging a poster and by extension posters of like religion. Please don't do that.)
Some of the other amazon reviews criticized certain books in Enders Saga or Shadow saga as preaching his pro religious views, but I saw the opposite when reading the books. Xenocide had people who were controlled and held down by religion because they had been genetically altered to have obsessive compulsive disorder and there OCD rituals were considered great religious experiences. On Lusitania Ender approved of the catholic church in order to support family values like marriage, but he did not truly believe in every part of the religion (though it wasn't specific about which parts). I always thought Ender was a character representing OSC, so I was surprised to here him say he is a Mormon, without speaking out against all the negative aspects of the Mormon culture. Maybe he doesn't believe everything Mormons do, but supports it because of "family values" like Ender. That still bothers me though cause I don't like lieing to children as it screws them up when they are older. Speaking out against any part of the Mormon religion can get you expelled from the church, so this my be 1 reason why he doesn't publicly disagree with all bad things Mormons do. But I am surprised that such an open-minded person supports a close-minded society.
[ September 27, 2010, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: JanitorBlade ]
Posted by Sala (Member # 8980) on :
Silencio, if all of your understanding of the Mormon religion comes from anti-Mormon or ex-Mormon internet sites, then your understanding of the faith is biased in a negative way. Many members of the Mormon faith, including myself, would say that the perspectives espoused on the Mormon Racism site you linked to are incorrect for the majority of members. I have been a member of the church for nearly 50 years and have experienced less racism in the church than out of it. My African American friends in the church have also made similar comments to me through the years. Members of the church believe in continual revelation which can modify or even completely change what has been done in the past. Members of the church also believe that their leadership, including the prophets and apostles, are just as human and fallible as the rest of us, and that the comments they make as people are not necessarily comments that the church upholds, and often those comments do necessarily reflect the era in which they lived. I can't speak for OSC, but based on my readings of his writings, I would say that he supports all aspects of the faith, but as with any community, there are always aspects of the culture that could be improved. As for being a close-minded society, that has not been my experience at all. But then, don't just take my word for it, just as you shouldn't just take the word of anti- or ex- Mormon sites. Talk to more faithful members to get their perspectives. Don't just talk/read the nonfaithful ones.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
quote:members of the church also believe that their leadership, including the prophets and apostles, are just as human and fallible as the rest of us,
they do? the prophets are as fallible as any other member?
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:members of the church also believe that their leadership, including the prophets and apostles, are just as human and fallible as the rest of us,
they do? the prophets are as fallible as any other member?
They retain the ability to make mistakes and commit sins yes.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:members of the church also believe that their leadership, including the prophets and apostles, are just as human and fallible as the rest of us,
they do? the prophets are as fallible as any other member?
They retain the ability to make mistakes and commit sins yes.
On paper, yes. But few members that I've met have ever said something like "Maybe President Monson is wrong on this one." and when such a sentiment is even implied, others are quick to respond that he's a prophet of God, etc.
In practice, retaining an ability to make mistakes is equivalent to "just as human and fallible as any other member" in the same way that a Ferrari retaining the ability to crash is equivalent to "just as little traction on a corner as any other car."
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
quote:Originally posted by MattP:
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:members of the church also believe that their leadership, including the prophets and apostles, are just as human and fallible as the rest of us,
they do? the prophets are as fallible as any other member?
They retain the ability to make mistakes and commit sins yes.
On paper, yes. But few members that I've met have ever said something like "Maybe President Monson is wrong on this one." and when such a sentiment is even implied, others are quick to respond that he's a prophet of God, etc.
In practice, retaining an ability to make mistakes is equivalent to "just as human and fallible as any other member" in the same way that a Ferrari retaining the ability to crash is equivalent to "just as little traction on a corner as any other car."
Expected to be imperfect, yes. Expected to royally screw up, no. The prophet and apostles are looked to as good examples of lives well led and revered as wise, inspired leaders, but they are not regarded as something more than human.
If they are seen as Ferraris rather than Fords in their relationships with deity, it’s because of how they’ve conducted their lives, and the notion that they are on a level unattainable by anyone else in the church is one primarily held by detractors. Or, put another way, Mormons believe that anyone can have the same blessings and closeness to God as the church leaders; the calling as an apostle makes no difference to one’s spiritual progress.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
quote:Some of the other amazon reviews criticized certain books in Enders Saga or Shadow saga as preaching his pro religious views, but I saw the opposite when reading the books. Xenocide had people who were controlled and held down by religion because they had been genetically altered to have obsessive compulsive disorder and there OCD rituals were considered great religious experiences. On Lusitania Ender approved of the catholic church in order to support family values like marriage, but he did not truly believe in every part of the religion (though it wasn't specific about which parts). I always thought Ender was a character representing OSC, so I was surprised to here him say he is a Mormon, without speaking out against all the negative aspects of the Mormon culture. Maybe he doesn't believe everything Mormons do, but supports it because of "family values" like Ender. That still bothers me though cause I don't like lieing to children as it screws them up when they are older. Speaking out against any part of the Mormon religion can get you expelled from the church, so this my be 1 reason why he doesn't publicly disagree with all bad things Mormons do. But I am surprised that such an open-minded person supports a close-minded society.
IMO, OSC as an author is more than able to create characters that don’t agree with and even act against his own beliefs. He also understands his own religion well enough, from what I’ve seen, to explore its potential weaknesses and come up with alternate realities where it is much less benign—without necessarily speaking out against his church. That said, I don’t think OSC is going to be silent about something he thinks is bad within his church or another religious organization —such as people who use their positions in the congregation for self-aggrandizement or worse. From all the OSC I’ve read, he’s definitely outspoken against what he sees as right and wrong.
Posted by BlackBlade (Member # 8376) on :
quote:Originally posted by advice for robots:
quote:Originally posted by MattP:
quote:Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:members of the church also believe that their leadership, including the prophets and apostles, are just as human and fallible as the rest of us,
they do? the prophets are as fallible as any other member?
They retain the ability to make mistakes and commit sins yes.
On paper, yes. But few members that I've met have ever said something like "Maybe President Monson is wrong on this one." and when such a sentiment is even implied, others are quick to respond that he's a prophet of God, etc.
In practice, retaining an ability to make mistakes is equivalent to "just as human and fallible as any other member" in the same way that a Ferrari retaining the ability to crash is equivalent to "just as little traction on a corner as any other car."
Expected to be imperfect, yes. Expected to royally screw up, no. The prophet and apostles are looked to as good examples of lives well led and revered as wise, inspired leaders, but they are not regarded as something more than human.
If they are seen as Ferraris rather than Fords in their relationships with deity, it’s because of how they’ve conducted their lives, and the notion that they are on a level unattainable by anyone else in the church is one primarily held by detractors. Or, put another way, Mormons believe that anyone can have the same blessings and closeness to God as the church leaders; the calling as an apostle makes no difference to one’s spiritual progress.
Well put.
Posted by MattP (Member # 10495) on :
quote:Expected to royally screw up, no.
I think the racial comments made by past leaders qualify for "royally screw up."
quote:Or, put another way, Mormons believe that anyone can have the same blessings and closeness to God as the church leaders; the calling as an apostle makes no difference to one’s spiritual progress.
What this means is that everyone has the potential to reach this level of infallibility, not that these people are "just as fallible as any other member." They are believed to have a special relationship with God, such that what they say regarding the will of God is more likely to be correct than what anyone else might say on the same topic.
Posted by Samprimary (Member # 8561) on :
I ask because I rather imagine that by now the elders/prophets/poohbahs/whatever are likely already tacitly aware or admitting that their decision to baldly politically mobilize the faith for the prop 8 campaign was a divisive and royal screw-up.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
quote:Originally posted by MattP:
quote:Expected to royally screw up, no.
I think the racial comments made by past leaders qualify for "royally screw up."
quote:Or, put another way, Mormons believe that anyone can have the same blessings and closeness to God as the church leaders; the calling as an apostle makes no difference to one’s spiritual progress.
What this means is that everyone has the potential to reach this level of infallibility, not that these people are "just as fallible as any other member." They are believed to have a special relationship with God, such that what they say regarding the will of God is more likely to be correct than what anyone else might say on the same topic.
Definitely mistaken, yes, especially through the lens of what we know now. Royally screw up, no. Fall away from the church, turn against it, lead it into the ground--that’s my definition of royally screw up. That is not expected of the church leaders. Some of them have, especially early in the church’s history. With how experienced and seasoned the leaders generally are when they are called as general authorities, it is pretty rare.
Apostles are believed to have a special relationship with God, because their calling demands that, but they would not have that relationship without a lifetime of doing what it took to have that relationship. Basically, the faith and trust in God it takes to carry out the work of an apostle is not gained overnight, but is already there by the time they are called. Apostle or not, anyone can have that relationship. Everyone is encouraged to. As for what they say regarding the will of God being more correct, you link that to their relationship with God incorrectly; it is the calling, the office itself, that carries the authority to speak the will of God as it pertains to the general body of the church. They would not be sitting in that chair if they had not built that close relationship with God throughout their lives, and the vast majority who have built such a relationship are not called as apostles. Those few who are are also given the authority to receive that revelation and guide the church in general.
Infallibility—I don’t believe in that, and it’s not a concept that gets any airtime in the church at the general member level in my experience. You don’t become infallible at any point in your life, no matter how well you keep the commandments, and nobody expects you to be. In fact, I would say that concept is directly against the doctrine of the church, which is centered on Christ’s atonement. There is the idea that God himself won’t let the church be led astray or destroyed by the fallibility of its leaders. If anything, that just emphasizes the fallibility of the leaders and their propensity to make mistakes.
Posted by Silencio (Member # 12398) on :
***** WARNING Spoiler Alert. I will be talking about parts of the book Treason AKA A Planet called treason******
Ok first of all I would like to apologize for suggesting that an author might be racist because one of his books has racist characters or may even used to use the N word. I should have known this because I once read a book called Of Mice and Men before where some characters were racist but the story didn't seem to make black people look bad. There are many racist characters in Treason.(specifically toward black people) But this does not mean the author is racist. Later in the book you learn that the black people are the most intellectual of all races and had created much superior technology to everyone around them .
Second I would just like to say that this book is by far my favorite OSC book of the 9 I've listened to. And I loved reading the other 8 from Ender and Shadow Saga. My average attention span for audiobooks or reading is about 1 hour before my mind thinks about other things, but this book was so interesting it kept my attention for an average of 3.5 hours at a time.
My favorite part was when Lamen says he was "half-raped" after killing some guards who ripped his clothes off while he was pretending to be a women.
Posted by Eisenoxyde (Member # 7289) on :
quote:Originally posted by Silencio: I was reading an amazon.com review that said the first original print of the book a planet call treason contained The N word instead of the word Inkers.
Does anyone know if this is true or just someone making stuff up?
I'm pretty sure it's someone making stuff up. I have the original A Planet Called Treason and don't remember ever reading that word. I'll look around for the book and check it out though.
Posted by DDDaysh (Member # 9499) on :
The word is in the original Ender's Game. Did the reviewer get things confused?
But, the thing we have to remember, is that the word is just that - a word. It is a word that is real and a part of our language. It is a very charged word, but sometimes charged words show up in literature. The use of such a word does not automatically show racism in the author. In fact, it can be used to illustrate the opposite of racism. It is unfortunate that some people see a word (or even just hear about someone else seeing the word) and go over the top!
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